search this blog

Sunday, December 14, 2014

Tigers and Proto-Indo-Europeans


Indo-European languages lack a cognate for the word tiger. In fact, it seems that not even the early Indo-Aryans were familiar with these big cats, because they borrowed their word for tiger from the Dravidians.

I've always found this fascinating, because tigers were once much more widespread than they are today, and found in the Caucasus, eastern Turkey, northern Iran and Afghanistan, and the riverine forests and wetlands of Kazakhstan until the mid 1900s. Here's an old postcard from Berlin Zoo showing a tiger caught in Georgia, western Caucasus.


What this tells me is that the Proto-Indo-Europeans didn't live very close to the Caucasus, Iran, the wetter parts of Kazakhstan, or in fact in any part of Asia inhabited by tigers.

By the way, here's some more reading:

Linguistics, archaeology and the human past

128 comments:

Palisto said...

The word "Tiger" comes from the Iranian word tigre (= arrow, fast). The river "Tigris" is named that way because it is fast river, similar to the river "Ems" in Germany (emsig = "fast"). In Kurdish "tir" is still used for "arrow".
Not sure where you got your information that the word "tiger" is Dravidian.

truth said...

The word Tiger is of Indo-Iranian origin, there is nothing Dravidian.

Matt said...

I get the impression Indian Indo-Aryan languages have various different words for the animal e.g. Shere, Bagh, Vyaghra - sanskrit which is obviously similar to bagh. It seems like sometimes the consensus Dravidian word form was borrowed and sometimes it was not.

Do the Caucasian languages have a root word for this animal? I can't find any information online other that the Georgian Epic translated as "The Knight in the Tiger's Skin" seems to use a generic or vague word for big cat (vepkhi), so possibly their ancestors were vague on such distinctions, even if the animals were known to them. This seems to be fairly common in existing languages.

Did seem like there were some IE cognate terms for leopard when I searched for that ("par" like words), although these were obviously not preserved or shared in areas where the leopard did not live.
While interesting, non-routine vocabulary can be subject to distortions like the bear taboo.

postneo said...

the rig veda has simha lion but no tiger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger

caspian and amur/siberian tigers are related and spanned central asia. If we go by such narrow selective faunal evidence then implications are that indo-europeans could not have come to india from central asia but from lion country. southern iran baluchistan, persian gulf.

bagh or vyaghra is not dravidian and unpronouncable in dravidian proper. origin is unclear.

sher mostly means lion. most likely the name has transfered to tigers since lions are nearly extinct in India.

postneo said...

http://blogs.kent.ac.uk/barbarylion/files/2014/07/Lion-distribution-map.jpg

lions have a more southern spread w.r.t tigers. There is some overlap with the caspian tiger but no lions east of the caspian.

Palisto said...

"Sher" means "lion".
Similar to Tigr>Tir there is also a loss of "g" in "lion" in Iranian languages: In Pahlavi Iranian, "Lion" was "Shegr", in modern Iranian it is "Sher".

Colin Welling said...

The Proto-Indo-Europeans didn't need a word for tiger probably because they didn't meet tigers regularly, if at all. What this suggests is that they didn't live very close to the Caucasus, Iran or the wetter parts of Kazakhstan.

I think this is a very minuscule objection to PIE not being in the caucasus. Maybe the animal was around but they just didn't name it (wasn't in their stories, diet, nor did it attack them enough...). Or they had a name for it but it was lost quickly because it wasn't in their stories... Maybe they just didn't feel the need to distinguish lion from tiger but when they ran into another culture that did, they picked it up.

Im sure I could find examples of things we find to be important, such as a tiger compared to "insert some irrelevant insect", which are present in the environment but aren't named by the people.

I say this with a lot of respect, but, the obscureness of this argument along with the slight agenda I'm seeing on this subject should be kept to a minimum. You are nowhere near this, but you definitely don't want to pull a dienekes.

capra internetensis said...

Careful with the negative evidence here. Just because we can't reconstruct a word to PIE doesn't mean they didn't have it. The classic example is that we can reconstruct the PIE words for "foot" and "snow" but not for "hand" and "rain".

Words also can and do shift meanings seemingly at random. For example in North America the native red deer Cervus canadensis is called "elk" and the native Alces alces is called "moose", a name borrowed from Algonquian, despite the fact that the word "elk" originally refers to European Alces alces and there is a very similar European Cervus species. To top it off the Asian[ varieties of Cervus are now called "wapiti", the Algonquian word for Cervus.

If most branches of PIE moved to where there aren't any tigers, then we would have to be lucky to recover an etymon for "tiger".

Davidski said...

Tigers are very important animals. If the Proto-Indo-Europeans had lived in former tiger country (like eastern Turkey or Iran), they would've had a word for it and it would most certainly feature in their mythology. But that's a negative on both counts.

And what does the modern Indo-Iranian word for tiger got to do with the ancient Indo-Aryan word for tiger, and the fact that there isn't a cognate for tiger in Indo-European languages?

Some people posting here left their brains elsewhere.

Davidski said...

Here's some more reading...

http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~tcrndfu/articles/Witzel_Central%20Asian%20Roots%20and%20Acculturationin.pdf

carlos lascoutx said...

tiger=tigris(Gk)=ticitl(N)=doctor/
midwife/diviner/witch. since
Ocelotl(N/14/Tonalamatl)felids are totem/to/our descent/temo(N)birth animals. Ocelotonatiuh is one of
the 5 Ages.

Davidski said...

Colin,

Indo-European languages have cognates for beaver and otter, but not tiger.

The Indo-Aryans had to borrow the word for tiger, pulli, from the Dravidians.

Why would they be borrowing this word for such an obvious animal, when they felt the need to have their own words for beaver and otter?

carlos lascoutx said...

ticatla(N)=midnight.
ticectic=white/pale.
ticicaxitl=ticitl caxitl=conch used by curanderos for auguries.
ticiyotl=medicine/divination/
midwiving/birth.
ticiti(verb)=doctor/divine.
ticitl=doctor/midwife/witch.
ocelotl(N/14)=totem birthing animal of Tonalamatl calendar regent, cave Venus Tlazolteotl, and Liangzhu Olmec jaguar babys.

carlos lascoutx said...

tir(Kurd)=tilinia(N)=stretch the
bow,=line/linen/till/until.
lion/leon=ocelo/tl/N=ole(c)o=
reversal=o/leoNauatl.

carlos lascoutx said...

pulli(Drav)=tepulli(Nawa)=
male member,=tribu(Sp)=tribe.

carlos lascoutx said...

leopard/leo(ocelotl)=pantera(Sp)=
pantli(N)=flag,=bandera(Sp)=
panther(E). the panther's tail
is what you see in the canebrakes, and from felid cave level was first battle flag.

carlos lascoutx said...

shegr/shere/sher=cel=ocelotl.
atl ecatl lotl cel(N)=o/cel/lotl
water wind light cell
ati cathe(caO/s)luthe cel(celOim=
Elohim=ocelome), Tarquin creation
prayer, Liber Linteus.

Davidski said...

Quit spamming.

carlos lascoutx said...

Dravidian=dr/tlauitl/dian=
tlauitl=ochre.
tlauilli=clarity/light/torch=
to(r)c/ch=toca=to/our being/ca=
touch,=lavi/lavil(Mayan/Tzotzil)=
now/today,=la vie(Fr)=vida/life.

carlos lascoutx said...

moose=mozoquitl(N)=zoquitl=mud=
tzotl=mosquito=your/mo zoquitl/
mudder,=Zoque(tribe)comtempors
of Olmec Liangzhu(3310-2250BCE),
last Chinese neolithic jade culture,
liang=millet/measure,=tianguiz=
market=mercado=mecatl(N)=rope=
rap=RapaNui(Easter Island)=rope
wrappers/noluia=nurse=noor=Nowruz=
nourish.
tequitl=quid pro quo community
service=te/stone quit/l, and,
zo/mud quit/l. Liangzhu were
at mouth of Yangtze when they
suddenly disappeared at 2250BCE.
the Zoque/zoquitl were their mudders for the growing fields
at river delta: their legacy would
be Cahokia/mound culture. the
taoite/tlaolli tetl=rolling/grind
stone, the glutton, ubiquitous emblematic for chinese bronze,
was invented by Liangzhu.

andrew said...

Unlike Colin, I agree that the absence of a PIE word for Tiger is very telling. This seems like a word that would be unlikely to be lost during the expansion phase of the PIE languages. Mega-fauna names are not esoteric. Hell, there are all sorts of megafauna names for animals that never even existed that are universally known by grade school kids (e.g. dragon, sphinx, unicorn), and tiger was an easy vocabulary word in the English language long before the vast majority of English speakers had ever seen one.

This data point is also arguably decisive in ruling out the possibility which other evidence really doesn't, that the Harappan language had spread to the extent of its trade area in Iran and Central Asia, and that some dialect of its, perhaps spoken in the BMAC area was adopted by pastoralists culturally as PIE people who then reconquered them. The absence of a clear substrate in Rig Vedic Sanskrit fueled that speculation.

But, since any language spoken in the Harappan trade zone would have had a word for Tiger, something present in the entire region and a big concern to caravan traders (and possible with related trade goods of its own like furs), that hypothesis is definitively nixed by the lack of a word for Tiger in PIE.

carlos lascoutx said...

pie was formed bkwds, late 18th c?,
so it wouldn't have the ticitl/tiger
transfer that reflects cave birthing
rites. the Tlaloc/Harlequin/halo/
Tlalloque Rain god/dwarf Nomad Deer/Mazatl Age, 45BCE-Gobekli is
in process of being recovered using
isbn-968-23-0573-x, Remí Simeón
Nauatl Diccionario. Herla/Harla=
Tlaloc cyning/King Herla, 1st
king of England with later overtones of Wodin/otli/word/road
and the Wild Host. previous beliefs always subject to slander,
e.g., harlot=tarot=tarocco(It)=
Tlaloc,=haruc(OHG)=holy grove=
Tlaloc=har/tlal-oc/uc(letra).


Ebizur said...

How is Indic vyagrah ('tiger') a borrowing from Dravidian pul ~ puli? I demand a more detailed explanation.

Names for large animals (especially dangerous carnivores, such as tigers, lions, bears, or wolves) are often quite diverse even within a single language or language family, perhaps as a result of a cultural practice of linguistic taboo avoidance.

The Korean language has both beom (범) and horang'i (호랑이) for 'tiger', and it is now impossible to discern what the original semantic distinction (if any) might have been. In actual present-day Korean usage, beom tends to be literary, and horang'i tends to have a more colloquial flavor. I suppose the colloquial Korean word, horang'i, might be a loanword from Classical Chinese 虎狼 hǔláng 'a metaphor for a person who is fierce and cruel or bold and powerful, such as a bandit' < 虎 'tiger' + 狼 láng 'wolf' or from some para-Turkic form related to Turkic kaplan, gaplang, etc. 'tiger', in which case the literary beom would be the more authentic Korean word, but this is far from being clear.

carlos lascoutx said...

1.vyagrah(viagra)=vya/ua ca/g(r)ah=
own/ua ca/being, the birth felid.
2.pulli=tepulli(N)=phallos/palli(N).
3.hulang=h/ph/polacqui(N)=immerse/
sumerge(in water).
beom=peua ome(N)=begins/births 2.
kaplan/gaplang=capani/capania(N)=
snap/make noise as one goes,=
campana(Sp)=bell.

Davidski said...

Ebizur,

Your argument doesn't work, because Indo-European has cognates for bear and wolf.

Tigers are awesome. If there's no cognate for tiger, then it's very likely that there weren't any tigers where the Proto-Indo-Europeans lived. Or even nearby.

And yeah, the Indo-Aryans initially borrowed the word pulli from the Dravidians. I've found a number of sources on the web saying this, so I'm sticking to it.

carlos lascoutx said...

Mazatl(N/7)=Mazyec/tli=name for
all people of N.Africa during
Tlaloc Nomad period, now used
only by Berber. ce uentli(N)=
one offering=ce/seven/uen/tli=
cerf/chevre/ciervo/hirvi(Finn/
Uenic/Kven/Fenec).
Tonakkay(Ainu)=Tonakai(J)=caribou=
Tonacatecuhtli(N)=Lord our flesh=
nacatl(N)=snack,=creator god of
the planet, creator of our creators, Omeciuatl/Ometecuhtli,
Lord of 1st day of Tonalamatl=
Cipactli(N/1)=scribe/sip/gossip/
seppuku(J)/Cipapu(Hopi).
uena/uentli=vena/when/even/render/
gwen/cawen(OE)=queen gwendolin/
wren=offered at spring plowing.

carlos lascoutx said...

bagh(Indo-Aryan)=paca/opac(N)=wash,
=bach/brach(OE)=b(r)ook(where found)

carlos lascoutx said...

wapiti(Algic)=wa/ua pitli/piti=
owns older sister/ahuitl/aunt/rain,
the oldest harvest=h/a(r)ui(s)t/l
goddess, and older sister of the
sun/Tonatiuh(N)=water, because she
comes first=atl=altia/altar=
tealtia/theatre/reality=ue altia/
bealte(OE)=beauty/beatitude.
Algonquin=a(l)coquetza(N)=get on top
=age/ago coq/coquette/conquer.

Ebizur said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ebizur said...

Davidski wrote,

"Your argument doesn't work..."

I have not made any argument.

Davidski wrote,

"...because Indo-European has cognates for bear and wolf."

Barely. English (and other Germanic cognates) 'bear' etymologically means 'brown (thing).' It is derived from an Indo-European root, but it is not an Indo-European word for 'bear.'

The reconstruction of an Indo-European word for 'wolf' is also unusually difficult; the supposed descendant forms are notoriously diverse (again, perhaps influenced by taboo deformation/avoidance).

Davidski wrote,

"And yeah, the Indo-Aryans initially borrowed the word pulli from the Dravidians. I've found a number of sources on the web saying this, so I'm sticking to it."

Then where does the Indic word vyagrah (and various descendant forms) come from? Do you believe that it is a loanword from Dravidian pul ~ puli (also occasionally pulu, pili, hili, huli, etc.)?

carlos lascoutx said...

this our answer crowds downpouring
swift as winter torrents roaring
not in vain the voice imploring
call on Harlech/Tlaloc men.

Nirjhar007 said...

@Postneo
Rajarshi, Kamon acho? onek din pore tomake dekhlam :) tumi nischoi Giacomor notun article ta porecho? durdanto hoyeche tai na? she aro onek kicchu prokash korte choleche ja dekhle tumi ha hoye jabe! Samarar aDNA ta kintu khub important hobey karon jodi 4000 khrito purbabder age kono R1a na pawa jai tobe Steppe matavad puopuri shesh!
Jai hok chalo dujon bong mile ei bhondor tar barota bajai;).....

Nirjhar007 said...

@Davidski claims:
''Then where does the Indic word vyagrah (and various descendant forms) come from? Do you believe that it is a loanword from Dravidian pul ~ puli (also occasionally pulu, pili, hili, huli, etc.)?''
Vyaghrah can't be Dravidian because of is lexical structure and because it has aspirated consonant gh which is a PIE phenomenon not found in Dravidian,Munda,Burushaki etc and also Balto-Slavic!
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche
About Pulli where did u found it were you Drunker than average? It is not in Mayrhofer neither in Monier-Williams!! though it is a tamil for tiger....
'' If there's no cognate for tiger, then it's very likely that there weren't any tigers where the Proto-Indo-Europeans lived. Or even nearby.''
they just didn't feel the need to distinguish lion from tiger and as we see here in Atharva veda vyAghra m. a tiger (not in RV. , but in AV. , often mentioned with the lion.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche
There is also a PIE cognate for Lion/Leopard which is *sing'h-
Tokharian: A śiśäk, B ṣecake (PT *ṣēnśäke) 'lion' (Adams 660)
Old Indian: siṃhá- m. `lion'
Armenian: inǯ (u-St.) `Pardel, Leopard'
Russ. meaning: зверек (лев, леопард)
were there lions in Steppe?
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_hitt=&method_hitt=substring&ic_hitt=on&text_tokh=&method_tokh=substring&ic_tokh=on&text_ind=&method_ind=substring&ic_ind=on&text_avest=&method_avest=substring&ic_avest=on&text_iran=&method_iran=substring&ic_iran=on&text_arm=&method_arm=substring&ic_arm=on&text_greek=&method_greek=substring&ic_greek=on&text_slav=&method_slav=substring&ic_slav=on&text_balt=&method_balt=substring&ic_balt=on&text_germ=&method_germ=substring&ic_germ=on&text_lat=&method_lat=substring&ic_lat=on&text_ital=&method_ital=substring&ic_ital=on&text_celt=&method_celt=substring&ic_celt=on&text_alb=&method_alb=substring&ic_alb=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_refer=&method_refer=substring&ic_refer=on&text_comment=&method_comment=substring&ic_comment=on&text_any=singh&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on

Nirjhar007 said...

@David
More interestingly in case of Indian Aryans the ELEPHANT is clearly depicted specially the wild ones from the earliest stages of the Book of Rigveda-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastin
Please tell me David that the Aryans saw them as they were large so they could have seen them from Andrnovo!
or Probably they ate them all in Central Asia who knows?

Nirjhar007 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nirjhar007 said...

(corrected)
==ABOUT BOTAI AND STEPPE HORSES==
Everybody please consider this portion-
Of this long article-
http://priyadarshi101.wordpress.com/
as i Cited in this post of David-
http://eurogenes.blogspot.in/2014/12/pit-grave-yamnaya-kurgans-are-as-old-as.html
It Finds-
''None of the archaeological claims made so far for the presence of the domestic horse in the steppe have been uncontestable. Outram (2009) found evidence of mare’s milk on pottery at Botai. However the bones of the Botai horses, particularly the vertebral bones showed no damage to them which normally occurs due to riding. After her detailed examination Levine noted, “the material from Botai examined so far most probably was from wild individuals” (Levine 2005:107). Thus presence of milk on a potsherd does not necessarily mean evidence of domestication. It was easy to capture a Przewalskii full-term pregnant mare, keep her captive through delivery, then use her milk for some time before slaughter. For the domestication status of any animal there should be complete package of evidence, not just a stray finding.

More than this, the Bronze Age Botai horses examined by Outram were not indigenous but were imports from outside, as Outram himself noted: “Metrical analysis of horse metacarpals shows that Botai horses resemble Bronze Age domestic horses rather than Palaeolithic wild horses from the same region.” The import of the steppe horses from outside during the Bronze Age is further confirmed by ancient DNA studies (vide infra). Morphological studies too have shown that metrically, the Bronze Age and later domestic horses of Eurasia resembled the European and Indian fossil horses (stenonis, sivalensis etc), but not with the steppe horse.''
So what now David? more future visions??:).
My advise is to try to find the info on Samara aDNA by excluding posting silly posts and conclusions on which you have deep NO knowledge of......

postneo said...

David this is a good point. Most of Persia, iraq, india and parts of anatolia, greece and southern Armenia were lion country but central Asia was not. So if you go by such evidence vedic speakers never knew of central Asia.

vedic simha is specifically a lion as opposed to vyaghra or tiger a later word. There are no common PIE words for big cats except perhaps leopard(latin pardus, predator ? sanskrit pradaku ? panther and sanskrit pundarika ?)

leopards were sparse in central asia but were at least found in its fringes unlike lions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard#mediaviewer/File:Leopard_distribution2.gif

snow leopards of central asia and himalayas live in extreme elevations and are rarely seen by humans. Look at the historical distribution map.
http://www.panthera.org/node/11

Witzel's meanderings on BMAC are hazy conjectures. The BMAC language is unknown.

"And yeah, the Indo-Aryans initially borrowed the word pulli from the Dravidians. I've found a number of sources on the web saying this, so I'm sticking to it"

This is wrong and obvious to any indic speaker. Please provide examples/references. Pulli was never borrowed into indo-aryan languages historcally or today. I speak several. This is pointed out clearly by Nirjhar with the earliest examples.

postneo said...

Hello Nirjhar, Ami vyasta chilam. blog Ta dekhechi kintu puroTa poRAr shomaye hoyni.

wanted to point out r1b m269 in western europe, bhutan and nepal ? Also j2b2. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241/

These seem to be early dispersals and holdouts obliterated by later dispersals of lineages like R1a.


Nirjhar007 said...

@Postneo
Thik ache Rajarshi:) kintu abosshoyi ota porbe aar nijer mulyoban motamot o janabe!
Ek gopan khobor ache Rakhigarhi te R1a aar j2 paojabe eta nischit!
About leopard OED has this to say-
''pard
archaic form of leopard, c.1300, from Latin pardus "a male panther," from Greek pardos "male panther," from the same source (probably Iranian) as Sanskrit prdaku-s "leopard, tiger, snake," and Persian palang "panther."
So there seems to be a PIE cognate like of Prd*/Pard*
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=leopard&searchmode=none
The tower of babel description is more decisive-
Proto-IE: *prd-
Meaning: leopard
Old Indian: pr̥dāku- m. `tiger or panther (L.)'
Other Iranian: Sogd pwrδnk, Pashto pṛāng, NPers palang `panther'
Old Greek: párdo-s m.; párdalo-s m., párdali-s, -ios/-eōs `Pardel, Panther, Leopard'
Russ. meaning: зверек (леопард)
References: WP II 49 f
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_hitt=&method_hitt=substring&ic_hitt=on&text_tokh=&method_tokh=substring&ic_tokh=on&text_ind=&method_ind=substring&ic_ind=on&text_avest=&method_avest=substring&ic_avest=on&text_iran=&method_iran=substring&ic_iran=on&text_arm=&method_arm=substring&ic_arm=on&text_greek=&method_greek=substring&ic_greek=on&text_slav=&method_slav=substring&ic_slav=on&text_balt=&method_balt=substring&ic_balt=on&text_germ=&method_germ=substring&ic_germ=on&text_lat=&method_lat=substring&ic_lat=on&text_ital=&method_ital=substring&ic_ital=on&text_celt=&method_celt=substring&ic_celt=on&text_alb=&method_alb=substring&ic_alb=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_refer=&method_refer=substring&ic_refer=on&text_comment=&method_comment=substring&ic_comment=on&text_any=leopard&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on

carlos lascoutx said...

yuh(N/adv)=thus/such.
yuhcatla(N)=desert=yukata(J)=summer
dishabille,=Yucatan.
jungle/junco/jungla=jangal(Hindi)=
jangala(Skt)=dry desert=ja(n)/yuh-
catla/gala.
yuhqui(Nawa)=thus/in this way.
yuhti(N)=from the beginning,=
just justice,=Yuh'di/Judy.

SB said...

So why do armenian and Sanskrit share a common root word for Tiger?
Sanskrit: vYagraha
Armenian: vagr

carlos lascoutx said...

yagraha(Skt)=yacatia(Nawa)=overtake,
nitla-yacatia=sharpen/go ahead,=
yacatl(N)=nose/point,=yacatepontic=
despuntado/declawed=Yacatecuhtli=
merchant god/he who guides,=Yakuts/
Siberia=tzintli/saintly river/iueli.

DDeden said...

I think there is much confusion due to the taboo-effect,

bear/bruin/brown(English) (color)

tiger=harimao(Malay)/horang'i(Korean)/orange(English)

dog(dingo)/atimwa(Cree)/ari(Khoe)/orange(English)

dog(dingo)/kelev(Hebrew)/ku'on(PIE)/kuning(Malay)=yellow(English) (=pulli?)

I think ku'on meant COAT of ORAN(ge/ye)llow, cf canari, canine(English) = (ku)anjing(Malay:dog)

*Xyalo = shallow.sand = yellow
Xy.ama.xy = Shamash(Bab:sun god)
ama.terasu(Jap:sun goddess)

First dogs came from isolated Tibetan wolves on Phu Quoc isle, perhaps Quoc = Ku'on(PIE)

Queensland Mbabaram dog is dog from gudaga/kutaka/*Ku'ange\kuon(PIE)

carlos lascoutx said...

bear/bruin/brown=burn/bern=vern/
vel/nawa=ue/uel/iueli(N)=powerful,=
river/bear/ivory=iueli pantli=
elephant=Iberia/Siberia/Hibernia/
hibernate/Inverness/invierno/
infierno/hiver(Fr)=winter=uitequi=
white/wheat/wi(n)ter=thresh, one
of the tequitl/quid pro quo
community services=tequitl=stone/
tetl quitting, zoquitl=mud quitting.
ue=v/bueno/buey/guëy/guy. uel=well/guelte(Sp)=wealth.

Nirjhar007 said...

==About Tigers and Other Important Data==
@SB
''So why do armenian and Sanskrit share a common root word for Tiger?
Sanskrit: vYagraha
Armenian: vagr''
Yes you point correctly though its Vyaghra not vYagraha :) anyway there is also a Persian related term Babr as in King Babar, in this cool work-
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/rig/
we find-
''But what these scholars deliberately ignore, in their desperate attempt to grab at whatever straw they think is available, is that the tiger is not restricted to the area �east of Delhi�: the tiger was a very common animal in the western Punjab (the seals of Harappa and Mohenjodaro contain many pictorial representations of the tiger, even when they do not have a single one of the lion) and in fact, the tiger in ancient times was found as far to the northwest as northern Afghanistan, northern Iran and parts of Central Asia.

Even if we follow the logic of the invasion-theorists and assume that the Vedic Aryans migrated into India from the northwest, these Vedic Aryans should have been very long familiar with the tiger well before they even glimpsed their very first elephant, spotted deer, peacock or Indian bison.

It is clearly impossible that the tiger could have been �still unknown� to the Vedic Aryans who were so intimately familiar with all these animals, and whose area of acquaintance (even assuming that they came from outside) extended upto Bihar (KIkaTa) in the east.

Incidentally, when the tiger is mentioned in later texts (including the other Veda SaMhitAs), it has a purely �Aryan� name: vyAghra, which not only has a purely Indo-European etymology, but also has cognate forms in Iranian babr and Armenian vagr. And even in the Rigveda, while the word vyAghra does not occur even once in the text, it occurs in the name of one of the composers of IX.97: VyAghrapAda VAsiSTha.

That the tiger is not mentioned even once in the whole of the Rigveda certainly does call for an explanation, but non-familiarity with the animal cannot be that explanation under any circumstance. Possible explanations are:

a. There was some kind of a ritual taboo on the mention of the tiger during the period of composition of the Rigvedic hymns, OR

b. The word siMha (lion) which occurs in the Rigveda in the following references, stood for both the lion as well as the tiger (according to American archaeologist Mark Kenoyer, it probably stood for the tiger rather than for the lion):

I.64.8; 95.5; 174.3;
III.2.11; 9.4; 26.5;
IV.16.4;
V.15.3; 74.4; 83.3;
VII.18.17;
IX.89.3; 97.28;
X.28.4, 10; 67.9.

Of these two possible explanations, the first is a more likely one.''
Though i think the second possibility is also have equal merits....

Nirjhar007 said...

Continuing.....
On Etymology of Vyghra From Prof. Benedetti i came to know that there are some linguistic hypotheses in Mayrhofer: one is vy-ā-ghra
'he who smells by opening (his jaws)'. Another is comparison with Greek okhros 'pale yellow'.
Cognates are Armenian vagr, Persian babr all words are Indo-European BTW.
==ASPIRATED CONSONANTS OF INDO-ARYANS AND THE LARYNGEAL CONTINUITY in KURDISH LANGUAGE==
As the Professor pointed out here-
http://new-indology.blogspot.in/2013/07/indo-european-linguistics-indo-iranian.html
The aspirated consonants, it is indeed an important question in IE linguistics, because they are present in few IE languages besides Indo-Aryan: Greek and Armenian, mainly, although aspirated voiceless stops are present also in Germanic languages like Icelandic, but not inherited from PIE aspirated consonants. And in all these languages there are/were no voiced aspirated stops. Also the Eastern Iranian Khotanese has voiceless aspirated consonants: http://www.languagesgulper.com/eng/Khotanese.html.
So, what is impressive is that the voiced aspirated stops, traditionally reconstructed for PIE, are now alive only in Indo-Aryan: is this a sign that there is the original IE population? Someone supposed instead that aspirated consonants are a creation of Indo-Aryans because of a substrate, but this seems quite unprobable, since they have left clear traces in IE languages. How Lat. fumus, Gr. thymos, lit. dumai, Skt. dhuma- can be reconciled without an original dh-? So, it is something to think about, maybe we can explain it through the law of the lateral areas: the periphery sometimes is more conservative than the central motherland, but in phonetics the substrate is a very important force.

Nirjhar007 said...

CONTINUING.....
and we all know of the established laryngeal hypothesis-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laryngeal_theory
In Kurdish dialect we find it still alive!!
From the linguistic point of view, in the Zagros mountains and the Caspian region of Iran now we have Iranian languages: Kurdish dialects, Luri, Farsi, Talysh, Tati, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Semnani. Also Armenian can be included in this area. These languages are quite far from Proto-Indo-European, however there are some significant elements common with ancient Indo-European languages. Old Persian, like Sanskrit, had 8 cases, which were lost already in Middle Persian, but Armenian has preserved 7 cases, without vocative, which is present instead in Kurdish. The sentence in Iranian languages is generally Subject-Object-Verb like in Sanskrit or Latin. Phonologically, Kurmanji Kurdish, the northern dialect, has voiceless aspirated stops (kh, th, ph), also preserved in Eastern Armenian. But what is more surprising is that Kurdish (and sometimes Persian and Armenian) has the so-called 'laryngeals'. According to the common opinion, some laryngeals were preserved only in the lost Anatolian languages. But if we look at many Kurdish words, we find them well alive.
'Bone' in Sanskrit is asthi, in Greek is osteon, in Latin os, in Persian asteh, in Hittite hastai, in Kurdish hestī (or hestik with aspiration of t as in Sanskrit). 'Star' is aster in Greek, haster in Hittite, hēstirk in a Kurdish dialect. Persian has the two copulas ast and hast.
'Horse' is hesp in Kurdish, in this case more similar to Greek hippos than to Hieroglyphic Luwian asuwa. 'Eight' is heşt in Kurdish, hesht in Persian. In Armenian there is hoviw 'shepherd', corresponding to Luwian hawi 'sheep'.
There is also a special case, that was used to introduce a hypothetic fourth laryngeal, lost in Hittite arki 'testicle', but preserved in Albanian herdhe. Well, in a Kurdish dialect a word used for that is hêlik, and in Armenian gełjk 'glands', where it was derived from *ghelg̑h-, like Russian železá. Pokorny cites another Armenian form for 'testicles', orjik, derived from a root *org̑hi-, r̥g̑hi-, like Greek orchis, Middle Irish uirgge, Avestan әrәzi, and Albanian herdhe. It seems that PIE *gh- gives normally Albanian g- (see here). To suppose a special mysterious sound just for this word would be absurd, and the Kurdish form here gives us an interesting link, also because we can find the l instead of r in Kurdish also in other words, cp. 'eagle', Kurdish helo, elo, Hittite hara-, Gothic ara. So we can think that the original root was *ghr̥g̑h-, which became *(h)r̥g̑h- in some dialects (the Avestan form is very clear), *ghelg̑h- in others, from which the Kurdish form. A possible parallel can be found in Kurdish hes 'feeling, mind', hîs, hest 'feeling, emotion', which I would connect with the root *g̑hais- of German Geist 'mind, spirit', English ghost, Skt. hḗḍa- 'anger, passion' (from *haizda-, see here).
Another interesting element of Kurdish phonetics is the presence of the ‘ayn (Arabic letter ع), pronounced as a voiced pharyngeal fricative (see here). It is found also in purely Iranian words like ‘asman 'sky'. This would be the third laryngeal in Kümmel's reconstruction, but as I have written in the post on the 'vowel destroyers', I do not agree with the system of three laryngeals invented to explain the different vowels, although I do not exclude that this sound was present in PIE: it would be interesting to see if its effects can be seen independently from the idea of causing a vowel o. The case of asman, in Persian and Avestan without ‘ayn or aspirate, would show no trace. Modern linguistics gives the root as *h2ek'-mon.
http://new-indology.blogspot.in/2014/10/can-we-finally-identify-real-cradle-of.html

Nirjhar007 said...

@David Wesolowski
So. David keep your Pulli+Sake on and maybe one day you will be the samurai of genetics;) no hope in other domains BTW:(......

postneo said...

So why do armenian and Sanskrit share a common root word for Tiger?
Sanskrit: vYagraha
Armenian: vagr

I think they are related. persian babr is not though. In hindi babbar sher means lion with a mane and not tiger. babbar is also a clan name in north india.

@Nirjhar there are simple possible explanations for why tiger is less prominent in vedic and PIE.

1) The rig veda is not an exhaustive treatise on all fauna. Animal references are incidental or random and occur to reinforce a theme or narrative.

2) The lion is a more visible savannah animal and lives in groups. The tiger is elusive, solitary and lives in more lush forests or stands of miscanthus(elephant grass) and marsh.

3) leopard prey on small livestock and have have greater interaction with humans.

4) PIE speakers spent a greater portion of time in lion and leopard country (south west asia) rather than tiger country .. central asia.

Davidski said...

Since none of us here are historical linguists, and languages aren't like genetics, in that they're more difficult to analyze and harder to get empirical evidence from, then the onus is on you to produce a paper or a book that proves Armenian and Indo-Aryan share the root for tiger.

Also, how can you claim that the Proto-Indo-Europeans spent a lot of time in southwest Asia when Indo-European languages have a well recognized cognate for beaver?

How many beavers do you think ever lived in southwest Asia?

Nirjhar007 said...

@Wesolowski
''Since none of us here are historical linguists, and languages aren't like genetics, in that they're more difficult to analyze and harder to get empirical evidence from''
Yes but Giacomo Benedetti is and i have given his clinical references.
'' then the onus is on you to produce a paper or a book that proves Armenian and Indo-Aryan share the root for tiger.''
Its In the Mayrhofer Dictionary Mayrhofer is this person-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Mayrhofer
Unfortunately is in German and not free on web BTW even if you use google translate In Armenian to English for Vagr it translates Tiger!!-
https://translate.google.co.in/#en/hy/tiger
And Vagr is an clear alternation of Vyaghra as Mayrhofer and also google translate points out if not then R1a-Z93 and R1a-Z283 is also not related!:)
''how can you claim that the Proto-Indo-Europeans spent a lot of time in southwest Asia when Indo-European languages have a well recognized cognate for beaver?

How many beavers do you think ever lived in southwest Asia?''
The PIE root for beaver is *bhebhrus, reduplication of root *bher- (3) "brown, bright" (cognates: Lithuanian bebrus, Czech bobr, Welsh befer; see bear (n.) for the likely reason for this). Gynecological sense ("female genitals, especially with a display of pubic hair") is 1927 British slang, transferred from earlier meaning "a bearded man" (1910), from the appearance of split beaver pelts.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=beaver&searchmode=none
It is based on color and is not found in Aryan can you show me that it is present in Aryan as Beaver?
and Bear-
PIE *bher- (1) "to bear, to carry, to take" (cognates: Sanskrit bharati "carries;" Avestan baraiti "carries;" Old Persian barantiy "they carry;" Armenian berem "I carry;" Greek pherein "to carry;" Old Irish beru/berim "I catch, I bring forth;" Gothic bairan "to carry;" Old English and Old High German beran, Old Norse bera "barrow;" Old Church Slavonic birati "to take;" Russian brat' "to take," bremya "a burden"). Sense of "draw a conclusion" is first attested 1520s.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=infer&allowed_in_frame=0
What we again see as i earlier referred from Giacomo that the Aspiration is absent except Indic! the Aspirated consonants is a original form of PIE Phoenetics and Accent!

Davidski said...

But hang on, what does it matter if Armenian and Indo-Aryan share a word for tiger?

They're both Asian Indo-European languages, and the ancient people who spoke them knew tigers. They probably also knew each other for a long time.

Has any of you actually come up with evidence of an Indo-European cognate for tiger, like for bear, wolf, beaver and otter?

If not, can you guys agree on some half decent arguments and stop wasting my time?

Nirjhar007 said...

How many 'PIE animals' words exist in Aryan which is not found in Aryan area in Asia? please answer that first....

Nirjhar007 said...

It Is funny David as bear, wolf, and otter are all found in Asia!! So stop wasting my time!! or give something scientific.....

Nirjhar007 said...

I have checked in Meantime mayrhofer,monier-williams and Sanskrit Dhatukosha and the term for Beaver is absent in Aryan and a Babhru exists which means brown and is from the same PIE root for Beaver as i gave the reference just earlier, which i don't know you observed or not but most importantly it means mongoose, a kind of large ichneumon BUT NOT BEAVER!! http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=babhru&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0
So in your language 'SUCK IT UP!'

postneo said...

Agreed armenian and indic cognates for tiger need to be better demonstrated. a good start would be cognates in intervening languages between armenia and india.

On beaver:
An assumption has been made that the word for beaver was transformed to a word meaning brown in sanskrit.

clearly sanskrit babhru or brown is closer to PIE *bhebhru than all beaver congnates outside south asia.

One could then hypothesize that *bhebhru or brown in PIE and was transformed into a term denoting brown pelts as people moved north.

Witzel argument against this is facile. He argues that sanskrit babhru cannot lead to beaver but only *bhebhru can. Of course agreed ! .... but thats not the point. He is making an assumption that PIE could not have been spoken near south asia to prove that it was not spoken near south asia ! This is circular logic of the dumbest kind.

The simplest model: *bhebhru originally meant brown in PIE spoken anywhere between eastern anatolia and south asia. Iran being dead center. The meaning changed for people moving northwards. In india both original sound value and meaning are better preserved.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.htm

Historical linguists are a small inbred, underfunded group. They cannot be expected to undertake field studies and required data sampling. granted tools for analysis are more subjective and complex than dna but its not impossible some start should be made instead of regurgitation, circular references and tall claims.

carlos lascoutx said...

tlacoocelotl(N)=lynx, small felid
with gray-black stripes as a tiger=
tagore=tlacololli(N)=twisted/curved,
=tlacolochtli(N)=circuit, round and
round.
chatter. chitoni(N)=on top sun/heat=
chthonic(Gk)=chitoun(Fr)=kitty.
chitlatla(N)=on top flame=cheetah
(Zatal Hüyuk).
tlatlacoloa(N)=flame coil=tlacoloani
(N)=s/he who curls=Tagore=tiger.

carlos lascoutx said...

Rabindranath=Tlapitzalli tlanaua=
pitza/flute naua/dance/
reel=hreol(OE)=teotl=the-other(E).


postneo said...

Also note the dubious etymology constructed by Witzel and some linguists for the word lAkshA lac (red wax, dye) and (hindi) lAkha sanskrit laksha meaning 100,000.

The conventional understanding is that the words derive from insect based red waxes and dyes and the swarm of insects used for cultivation. these are endemic to south asia. there are other red/pink insect based dies in the middle east, china as well. Its an ancient industry.

http://shellacepc.com/products/shellac-lac-based-products/

Lox and cognates in europe means salmon or trout flesh and is never used for the colour red/orange/pink or for large numbers.

Witzel and Thieme contribute to a contrived etymology. supposedly salmon or lox is pink hence a sanskrit synonym for red/pink and large numbers are based on singular memories of the flesh of a specific temperate species and thousands of salmon spawn or fish. Why then is the sense of a large number not found in Europe ? Only indians remember this elaborate association between a non existent species and its spawn and migratory aspects whereas the connection is lost in europe where the species is harvested to this day.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/EJVS-7-3.htm



It is not even clear if most fish harvested in ancient northern Europe overwhelmingly had pink flesh and visible spawns of eggs to leave such an indelible memories in sanskrit or that no fish harvested in india had pink flesh.

DDeden said...

Is this too simple?

Vyagara || Tyagara
Vgar || Tigr

capra internetensis said...

The Armenian word for tiger is thought to be a loan from Iranian, probably ultimately from Indic.

You'd expect an actual Armenian cognate to begin with g-, as in O. Arm. goč'em "shout" vs Sanskrit vac "speech" (English voice); Arm. gayl "wolf", Sanskrit vṛka (English wolf).

@DDeden
If you want to propose an etymology for a word, you need to work out sets of correspondences that apply to numerous words, not just compare a couple of words that sound vaguely similar.

postneo said...

Is this too simple?

Vyagara || Tyagara
Vgar || Tigr
------
tIr is arrow in indo-aryan, persian, kurdish.

sanskrit has
tIvra: extreme, shrill, sharp, fast
tIkshNa: sharp (N is a trill or flap)
shIghra: fast
tIghra: is a place name

(Note voiced aspirate gh not g in the last two)

None mean tiger as far as I know.

Nirjhar007 said...

@Postneo
Chalo alochana kori,
Thik but since Eminent Academic scholars[Not the other dullard kinds of scholars as you depicted ;)] like of Manfred Mayrhofer, Shrikant Talageri (http://voiceofdharma.org/books/rig/ch4.htm) and Giacomo Benedetti all agree to that Sanskrit vyaghra, Persian Babr and Armenian Vagr have derived from the same root( Which can be *Vaghr) then i think it should suffice and as i pointed from Giacomo on the etymology of the Sanskrit Vyaghra Manfred Mayrhofer projects with breaking the root- one is vy-ā-ghra
'he who smells by opening (his jaws)'. Another is comparison with Greek okhros 'pale yellow'.
Cognates are Armenian vagr, Persian babr all words are Indo-European BTW Since Persian Babr is lion then it is clear that in Ancient timeS words for Tiger and Lion were not distinguished from each other! and according to American archaeologist Mark Kenoyer, Simha depicted in this following Riks Of Rigveda actually stood for the tiger rather than for the lion)[See the Book link i gave]:

I.64.8; 95.5; 174.3;
III.2.11; 9.4; 26.5;
IV.16.4;
V.15.3; 74.4; 83.3;
VII.18.17;
IX.89.3; 97.28;
X.28.4, 10; 67.9.
After checking them i'm also quite convinced.
We know that there is the PIE cognate *sing'h- for lion or similar type of animals the cognates are also found in Armenian,Tokharian-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_hitt=&method_hitt=substring&ic_hitt=on&text_tokh=&method_tokh=substring&ic_tokh=on&text_ind=&method_ind=substring&ic_ind=on&text_avest=&method_avest=substring&ic_avest=on&text_iran=&method_iran=substring&ic_iran=on&text_arm=&method_arm=substring&ic_arm=on&text_greek=&method_greek=substring&ic_greek=on&text_slav=&method_slav=substring&ic_slav=on&text_balt=&method_balt=substring&ic_balt=on&text_germ=&method_germ=substring&ic_germ=on&text_lat=&method_lat=substring&ic_lat=on&text_ital=&method_ital=substring&ic_ital=on&text_celt=&method_celt=substring&ic_celt=on&text_alb=&method_alb=substring&ic_alb=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_refer=&method_refer=substring&ic_refer=on&text_comment=&method_comment=substring&ic_comment=on&text_any=singh&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on

Nirjhar007 said...

On Beaver you killed it:) and About Salmon yes there is again as in the case of Babhru the thing that even a 5 year old will understand that the meaning was applied when people migrated north and the original one remained with the SC asians and of course babhru is applied similarly to Mongoose, ichneumon and people with Brown hair with the original meaning of Brown/Reddish color also there was a mythological person named Babhruvahana the son of Arjuna+Chitrangada as well-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babruvahana
Surely he wasn't a beaver or mongoose;)...
and again about Salmon-
According to the great database of Tower Of Babel (TOB)-
Proto-IE: *lAk'is-
Meaning: salmon, trout
Tokharian: B laks `Fisch' (Adams 544)
Slavic: *lososь, gen. -e
Baltic: *lač-i-s, *lačiš-ā̂ f., *lač-en-a- c.
Germanic: *laxs-a- m.
Russ. meaning:fish (salmon, trout)
Note that the Indic Word Laksa was not included as it meant something else as you said though is from the same root.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_hitt=&method_hitt=substring&ic_hitt=on&text_tokh=&method_tokh=substring&ic_tokh=on&text_ind=&method_ind=substring&ic_ind=on&text_avest=&method_avest=substring&ic_avest=on&text_iran=&method_iran=substring&ic_iran=on&text_arm=&method_arm=substring&ic_arm=on&text_greek=&method_greek=substring&ic_greek=on&text_slav=&method_slav=substring&ic_slav=on&text_balt=&method_balt=substring&ic_balt=on&text_germ=&method_germ=substring&ic_germ=on&text_lat=&method_lat=substring&ic_lat=on&text_ital=&method_ital=substring&ic_ital=on&text_celt=&method_celt=substring&ic_celt=on&text_alb=&method_alb=substring&ic_alb=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_refer=&method_refer=substring&ic_refer=on&text_comment=&method_comment=substring&ic_comment=on&text_any=salmon&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on
What do you say?

Simon_W said...

After thinking about it, I have to say that the relationship between PIE and Uralic is really a strong argument, perhaps the strongest we have from linguistics. Because apparently that relationship includes many morphological parallels. So even if we accept the G-I position that the PIE vocabulary had many words pointing to a West Asian origin, the morphological evidence has more weight. PIE may have been a language of mixed origin, like English. English is basically Germanic, but has a strongly French influenced vocabulary. PIE may have been basically northern, but strongly West Asian influenced in the vocabulary.

It's known that speakers of a proto-language may have words for animals etc. which don't occur naturally in their environment. E.g., in proto-Slavic there was a word for elephant, *slon.

At least some West Asian influence on the Pontic-Caspian steppe is becoming more and more likely. We've seen it in the mtDNA, and we're probably going to see it soon in autosomal DNA. And there is also archeological evidence for such an influence. Grigoriev has explained that in detail in his work Ancient Indo-Europeans, pp. 339 – 344. According to him, the West Asian influence started to become appreciable after 5000 BC, but without being the predominant element as far as population numbers are concerned. So he doesn't reduce that link to Kurgans, since at that time Kurgans didn't exist yet. But he mentions lots of other evidence. And such a West Asian link from the beginning would easily explain the West Asian autosomal admixture in all modern IEs.

Yet, the morphological relationships with Uralic would favour a steppe origin of PIE.

postneo said...

"Note that the Indic Word Laksa was not included as it meant something else as you said though is from the same root."

I am not sure its the same root perhaps it is. The earliest use is the atharva veda ? Also, I first hand don't know of a context where lAksha denotes red or pink.

Also how do Talageri or others explain the transformation from vagr to babbar.

The sImha occurences did not clearly imply lion or tiger I looked through some. (stripes vs mane etc). Its an isolated usage of the word.

Ei Rakhigarhi'r byapAr TA bhArI interesting. kothAO pELAM nA.

reportedly there are resemblances Uralic and IE morphology e.g. in verb conjugation. Would be interesting to find out more.

Finnish has a strange resemblance with bengali in having an affirmative vs negative in verb conjugation. Its less elaborate in bengali. This is not shared between say hindi and bengali.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_verb_conjugation

carlos lascoutx said...

beaver=be/ue(a)uel(u/ver/l=iueli(N)=
river/Iberia/Siberia.

DDeden said...

Strange question:

Were there any tigers west of Caspian during & slightly before PIE formation?

Couldn't they have been pushed west at a later date, due to climate and human activity changes?

Davidski said...

Central Asian tigers gave rise to the present-day Amur tiger population. In other words, tigers arrived in the Russian Far East not from southern China, but from Central Asia.

These Amur tigers are the most highly differentiated mainland tigers in terms of DNA and skull characteristics (for example, they seem to have acquired their broad skulls and well developed sagittal crests from their Central Asian aka. Caspian ancestors).

So it's more likely that tigers were present in West and Central Asia longer than in the Amur region, in which case they were there for a while, perhaps as much as 12,000 years.

More reading here...

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004125

DDeden said...

Thanks Davidski.

pulli(Tamil) tiger = color of pollen(ator)=melli/honey/madhunnig(Hindi?)/hunnig(German) = yellow = kuning(Malay)

~ *ku'anjing(*Malay)=PIE Ku'on/c'anine

carlos lascoutx said...

pulli=polocatl(N)=chaff=polecat?;
=poloa(N)=annihilate/destroy,=
poliua(N)=impersonal of poliui(N)=
lose/hide/destroy,=poliuhqui(N)=
lost/condemned,=pulque(Mex)=octli
(N)=o(ctl)i=oinos(Gk)=wine.

Nirjhar007 said...

@Simon
'' So even if we accept the G-I position that the PIE vocabulary had many words pointing to a West Asian origin, the morphological...''
Thanks for your suggestion BUT Simon NO of course NO! Because-
1.The Linguistic Morphological characteristics Such as Voiced Aspirates and Laryngeals still alive in Indo-Aryan and Kurdish languages are not words and they are Exclusively reconstructed for PIE!
2.There are other ones also like 8 Cases found in Aryan and in Armenian 7 and Balto-Slavic also 7 or 6.
3. Words for Animals and others have more original form in SC Asian and SW Asian languages! and they don't have words for animals that don't exist there but have their original root and meaning applied like we see in case of Babhru(Brown) and Laksa(red dye,sign,mark etc,see here for laksa-
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=+laksa&trans=Translate&direction=AU)
i return to the morphological issue after discussing Anthropology-
''West Asian influence on the Pontic-Caspian steppe is becoming more and more likely.''
For cultures like of Yamnaya and Maykop there is the clear anthropological data for movements into the Sredny Stog-II phase with Yamnaya from the Southern Caspian area-http://new-indology.blogspot.in/2014/10/can-we-finally-identify-real-cradle-of.html
Now, both Yamnaya and Maykop has starting points around ~4000BC during on that period this is what happened- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.9_kiloyear_event
The people of those cultures settled there due to the effect of that catastrophe from their respected west asian/ Iranian homeland as in case of Yamnaya and SrednyStog-II's anthroplological data agree!
There is also the 8.2 KYO Event which according to Prof. Giacomo Benedetti
is connected with the development of Jeitun Neolithic
and the migration to the Urals. if they study the aDNA of Ural sites they can find
Iranian Hgs around 6000 BC, already the physical type is Mediterranean, and certainly sheep
did not arrive by themselves!.....

Nirjhar007 said...

@Simon
CONTINUING....
Archaeology-KURGANS
Kurgans are not exclusively related to Indo-Europeans and more deeply the tumuli or barrows are typical of the Kurgan cultures but are also found in other cultures: the Mongols, the Turks (Kurgan is a Turkic word), the Japanese, the Etruscans, Megalithic cultures of Ireland and Portugal, the Native Americans. It is not basal to say the Kurgans are connected with PIEs. the Kurgan IEs adopted the idea of the tumulus from other cultures, or they developed autonomously. There are tumuli also at Se Girdan in Iran, it is not clear if it is before or after Maykop... In South Asia, there are at Dholavira, with the inner wheel like later Stupas... so, barrows can be developed in different cultures and periods, when there is the will to celebrate the burial of a special individual...,tumulus were erected by various cultures,not restricted to IE.Tumulus were present even in pre-IE Europe,such as this one http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_Saint-Michel in neolithic France....
''the West Asian autosomal admixture in all modern IEs. ''
It is indicative of the true Origin area of Zagros-Zarzian area in South of Caspian but we need aDNA like from Samara which has West Asian Mtdna from 4000 bc as Reich et al. preview informed, lets see their Y-DNAs in few days there should be I and R1b also.
Now i go to 'Indo-Uralic' issue....

Nirjhar007 said...

@Simon
''Yet, the morphological relationships with Uralic would favour a steppe origin of PIE.''
Not necessarily i analyse first from the wiki-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages
1. First Uralic has failed to donate any particular words in PIE against their borrowings like for Pigs,100 which only indicates one way contact between PIE and Proto-Uralic and wiki says-
''Despite a large number of known post-PIE Neolithical cultural loanwords (such as 'hundred' and 'pig' mentioned above), the alleged earliest layer of PIE loans into PU contains almost no words of this type. The words concerned instead represent basic vocabulary (pronoun roots, verbs such as 'do', 'go', 'give') – unlikely to have been borrowed – or items appropriate to a Mesolithic level of culture and therefore plausible as shared terms.''
The term Mesolithic is important as in that time say 10,000 bc PIE didn't existed and the family group was most likely part of the Eurasiatic group as logic suggests AND words for water,name found in nearly identical form right across Siberia and East Asian languages also have cognates in other areas! as Eurasiatic heritage take 'water' for instance-
Eurasiatic: *wetV
Meaning: water
Borean: Borean
Indo-European: *wod-
Altaic: *udV (~-o-)
Uralic: *wete
Dravidian: *jēd_-
Chukchee-Kamchatkan: *jīt- 'to drip'
Comments: [For PIE *und- 1206 cf. PA *ùntu 2526; in Drav. cf.: *vedd- / *ōt- (DEDR 1047); *ūt- (DEDR 743) 'wet, become wet'; *vaṭi- 'to drip' (DEDR 5221); *uṭ- 'to urinate' (DEDR 696).]
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cnostr%5Cnostret&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_ier=&method_ier=substring&ic_ier=on&text_alt=&method_alt=substring&ic_alt=on&text_ura=&method_ura=substring&ic_ura=on&text_kart=&method_kart=substring&ic_kart=on&text_drav=&method_drav=substring&ic_drav=on&text_esk=&method_esk=substring&ic_esk=on&text_chuk=&method_chuk=substring&ic_chuk=on&text_notes=&method_notes=substring&ic_notes=on&text_reference=&method_reference=substring&ic_reference=on&text_any=water&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on
So even Dravidian has the cognate similar and African ones also see the Borean link there,....

Nirjhar007 said...

@Simon
Continuing....
Same for the word for 'Name'-
Eurasiatic: *ĺVm(ŋ)V
Meaning: name
Borean: Borean

Borean (approx.) : LVMNV
Meaning : name
Eurasiatic : *ĺVm(ŋ)V
Afroasiatic : *nab- (nam- and lam- in some Omot.)
Sino-Caucasian : ST *(r)miǝ̆ŋ
Austric : ? Tai *lān name
Indo-European: *(e)nomen-,
Altaic: *ĺi̯ŏ́mo(ŋa)
Uralic: *nime (? *lime)
Chukchee-Kamchatkan: *jъmŋъl 'fairy-tale' (if not < TM); rather Chuk. *nǝnʒǝ ~ *nъnbъ 'name'
2.For the BASIC VOCABULARY (pronoun roots, verbs such as 'do', 'go', 'give') PIE also share them with ELAMITE as for instance tun/dun 'to give', ba-at/pa-at 'foot', r(i)sha 'big', Skt. rsh-va 'high, great'. See this: http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/elam.pdf
add to that there are common roots between Elamite and PIE!, as you can see here at p.779: http://books.google.it/books?id=M2aqp2n2mKkC&dq=elamite+indoeuropean&hl=it&source=gbs_navlinks_s
Since PIE of Iran had an unique geographical position surrounded by other language groups like Elamite in South and Uralic-Altaic in far north which as Anthropology suggests was invaded by Iranians(PIE related people) around 6000 BC with bringing Goat and agriculture to the northern Asia the relations are crystal clear for Europe and Near East it happened around 4000 BC with the climatic pressure of the 5.9 KYO Event and there is the anthropological data also and we just need the aDNAs from India,Iran,Near-East and Europe also which is on the way....

Nirjhar007 said...

@Postneo
''...kothAO pELAM nA...''
Ota gopon somvad adidna je porikkha korche tar kach theke goponey jana ebong seta prokash kora jabena:)
http://shinpaleopathology.blogspot.in/2014/10/poster-presentation-at-indian.html
Baki bishoy ami ektu pore bolchi ekhon aar somoy nei bondhu.....

Davidski said...

Proto-Uralic could not have donated any farming related words to Proto-Indo-European, like pig, because the Proto-Uralics were hunter-gatherers who only had dogs.

carlos lascoutx said...

pig=pitzotl(N)=mudpicker=
pig/c/z/tz/sow(E).
dog=d/toca(N)=sow and bury,=
to/our being/ca,=tocar(Sp)=whistle,
touch/pat.

carlos lascoutx said...

water=w/atel/r=atl(N)=Altai(mts)=
altia(N)=altin(Turk)=gold=zoloto(R)=
zloti(P)=colotli(N)=idol/horn,=
tealtia(N)=theatre(someone's altar)=
reality(royalty).
ue altia(N)=bealte(OE)=beauty and
beatitude(E).
alaua(N)=annoint(nnn)=lavar/labrar=oalauh(N)=laude(Fr)/allow/hallow.
alaua/oalauh(N)=slip/escape,=
alauac/alactic/alaztic(N)=slipperyael(OE)=eel,=el(OFris)=al(OS/OHG)=
aal(Du/G)=all(ON)=(CGer)=aelaz.
name=namictia(N)=marry/struggle,=
namiqui(N)=neighbor.

carlos lascoutx said...

brat'(R)=b(r)at=patla(N)=
nino-patla(N)=bored,=nite-patla=
replace one person for another,=
nitla-patla=change/interchange,
swap(trocar/toca)/found(metal)/
dilute.
vremya(R)=time/weather/season/
tense,=uemmana/ouemman(N)=
ni-uemmana=make offering,=
nino-uemmana=offer oneself,=
nitla-uemmana=offer a thing,
u/v/b(r).

carlos lascoutx said...

tica/ticitl(N)=midnight midwife
(tigra/tiger)=digit(E)=d/tic/git/l=
ticitl=t(r)ick/tick=Trechetti(It)=
family name of midwives(Sicily=
S/ticit/ly.
laksha(Skt/Hindi)=lac=tlaca/body
sha/xayacatl/face=tlacxaya(N)=
shellac(E)=xeliui/divide in half,=
xeloa/xexeloa=divide/pour/separate.

DDeden said...

Speculatively speaking,

(ku)wakan tanka (Dakota) dog tanka
kuda (Malay) horse, from dog
kutaka/gudaga (Mbabaram) dog
Phu Quoc (Viet/Cambod) Phu Ku'on
Khuda (Afghan?) god (A.uraMazuda?)
gouda (Dut) yellow cheese cf edam
dog/dug/gold/god/gouda/kuda
khumis (Turk?) mare's ferm milk

First Dairy/de.ari: bitch's milk
diarreah? de oro/ari Bot(ai/laya)

áureo, de oro, dorado (Span) gold
altin (Turk) gold
zoloto (Russ) gold
nub (Anc Egypt) gold
pulli (Tamil) tiger/pollen/yellow
b.nbn (Anc Egypt) pyramidion/tip
= nubbin/nipple/b.nbn/topi/steeple
aureola(nipple)/aurah(Arab) glow/halo/shallow(sand)/yellow
Kunlu.n mtn range (Tarim Basin, China) Cele.stial mtns.
Kulu (Kongo)= Utu (Sumer) sun/sky god = Surya(Hindi) = Helios(Gk) = Eloi(Hebrew) = yellow = oc.elo.t

Xyambuatla(Paleokey) sky god/guard
xya(mb/ng)ua(tl/rd)=jaguar/jyordan
jaguar/vagr/vyagara/tiger

carlos lascoutx said...

elm=olmo(Sp)=loom=omelia(N)=make
one of 2=homily/humility(E)=ome=
Ulm=ivory/iueli(N)Lady Lioness=7 stripes lt.arm=7=Mazatl(N/7/Tona). rt.arm missing=7=14=ocelotl(N/14)=
Tonakkay(Ainu)=creator of planet
and the Ome/2/firedrill gods(us)=
Tonacatecuhtli(N)=Lord Our Flesh,
primal deity of 1st day Tonalamatl=cipactli/pactli=bagre= bag/pactl/t/re=catfish=
ocelomichin(ocelofish/Wels).
Tonakai(J)=Tonakkay(Ainu)=caribou=
karabos(Gk)=scarab(Egypt).
ocelotl=lotus=cielo=leon/teotl=
lot=luth=luz(Sp)=light,=
ocelix/celia(N)=revive,=oc(r)e(Sp)
=och(r)e,=Ocelotonatiuh=1st solar
age. our age=Naui olin, the 5th.

Nirjhar007 said...

@Wesolowski
//Proto-Uralic could not have donated any farming related words to Proto-Indo-European, like pig, because the Proto-Uralics were hunter-gatherers who only had dogs.//
But i didn't specify to only farming related words i meant ANY particular words which don't exist in Indo-European languages from Uralic at all! all that matches are general words going to Eurasiatic period a time when neither PIE or PU existed! and they were also fused with like Dravidian,Elamite and Sino-Caucasian languages.
=URALIC SUBSTRATUM IN BALTO-SLAVIC=
On Balto-Slavic the family that you belong to there are many changes from PIE in Balto-Slavic, as you can see in this detailed description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Balto-Slavic_language#Development_from_Proto-Indo-European_to_Proto-Balto-Slavic The accent for instance is different from Vedic and Greek,Armenian. There are also sounds not found in other IE languages and not reconstructed for PIE, like palatal lateral and palatalized trill. In vocabulary, they share some European terms not found in Indo-Iranian and close to Semitic, probably of the Early Neolithic (LBK) European civilization, like apple, wild boar (wepr-/vepr-), plough (plug-), etc. The phonetic developments, being specific of Balto-Slavic, are rather due to a hunter-gatherer substratum. In effect, palatalization is typical also of Uralic languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages#Phonology

Nirjhar007 said...

==DOGS AND ZARZIANS==
The PIE Root for Dog is *kwon- "dog" (cognates: Greek kyon, Old English hund, Old High German hunt, Old Irish cu, Welsh ci, Sanskrit svan-, Avestan spa, Russian sobaka (apparently from an Iranian source, such as Median spaka), Armenian shun, Lithuanian šuo) Hittite śuwanis in Eurasiatic sense we get-
Eurasiatic: *ḲüjnA
Meaning: wolf, dog
Altaic: ? *káŋV
Uralic: *küjnä 'wolf'
Austric : PAN *u(ŋ)kuq 'puppy'? (POc. *nkaun 'dog'?)
Amerind (misc.) : *(a)kuan 'dog' etc
Reference-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=++63&root=config
Now As I linked from Giacomo Zarzian Culture was the Seed of the Culture which later emerged as PIE according to the article with reference in wiki-
''The Zarzian culture is found associated with remains of the domesticated dog and with the introduction of the bow and arrow. It seems to have extended north into the Kobistan region and into Eastern Iran as a forerunner of the Hissar and related cultures''
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarzian_culture
So what we see is that they also introduced the Bow and Arrow a weapon that was like the Nuclear weapons of this time and helped them to expand in various parts of Eurasia and there is the Dog also....
and yes Horses were also found from neolithic levels in Zarzian-Zagros horizon just see the New-Indology article David:).....

postneo said...

@davidski
no lexical borrowings farming or otherwise from uralic to PIE or IIR. morphological relationship such as verb conjugation are a more serious argument. I am open minded but suspicious in general of all linguistic claims. See below.

Take the supposed case of salmon and lets walk through what is proposed by Witzel et al.

the purported evidence.

europe. lax = salmon (not a colour but the fish)
sanskrit laksha = waxy substance, insect, large number. (not a colour)
latin locus = center, focal point
lakshya = goal, sign, target

what is proposed.

1) from 4000 to say 2000 BC PIE speakers north of the back sea get imprinted by the redness of salmon flesh, its large migratory swarms and develop fish based cognates for large numbers and color.

2) over the next 1000 to 2000 years they reach south Asia through a huge landmass preserving said vocabulary but without encountering much salmon.

3) the remaining people in salmon land develop amnesia and forget lax was a color or number and reverts back to just fish.

4) In India the memory remains dormant and lax is not used as color descriptor for common everyday red objects.

5) At a late stage when IE migrants become familiar with the more obscure/endemic aspects of south asian material culture e.g. lacquer this dormant memory is suddenly triggered for only one specific entity. its the redness that triggers it you see .. and it displaces the native word for lacquer.

6) the redness that triggered this lone association is promptly forgotten throughout India in all cultural contexts and lac becomes merely a substance not color.

7) poor old lakshya and locus which have similar meanings in europe and India fall by the wayside forgotten by indologists.

Not Ocam's razor as Witzel often likes to trumpet but more like Ocam's tool chest.

@Nirjhar
Isn't bow and arrow older than the spread of the Zarzian culture northwards. Their advantage would simply be demographics, domestication and immunological. they were expanding into vacuum.. regions, more affected by the ice age.

Awale said...

Yet more slaps on the face for any sort of "Asian Urheimat" hypothesis. Not that most of them made much sense to begin with.

postneo said...

Words for salmon never made it out if Europe. It's pure fabrication

obvious if you read through the post.

carlos lascoutx said...

koun/kon=con/com(Nawa)=relative
pronoun c(N) united to on(N)=with,=
can(N)=where?/time,place=canaua(N)=
canine(E)=con(Sp)=with,=c-on/com(N)=
c/groom(E).

carlos lascoutx said...

camapaca(N)=camatl/mouth wash/paca=
ocamapacac(preterit)=Ocam/Ogham.

carlos lascoutx said...

lax(E)=loose bowels,=tlaza(N)=lazy.
laksha(Skt)=tlaca xayacatl(N)=
trace face,=tlaxsha=laquer.
locus(L)=local(E)=lugar(Sp)=tloc(N)=
lock/dock/logos(Gk).

carlos lascoutx said...

hund(OE)=hound(E)=hond(Du)=hunt(OHG)
=cu/g.con(OIr)=cony/conetl(N)=
rabbit,=ku(Toch)=zuas/g.zunas(Skt)
=szuo(Lith).
hare(E)=tlalli(N)=earth,=lapín(Fr)=
tlalpilli/piltzintli(N)=earth child/
prince.
Tocharian=T/Th/Ho/un/g/gh/charian=
Hungarian=tochtli(N/8/Tona)=ocho(Sp)
=t/th/ho(r)s/chtli=horse(E), and,
t/ros/c/chtli(N)=ross/Rocinante.

carlos lascoutx said...

hunt/hot/hut/shot/shore=xotla(N)=
inflame/heat/bud/grow,=tlalli xotla=
earth burns,=Nitla-xotla=cut cloth/
make lines(shore)/saw wood(hut),=
xot/l/ra=shoal/shore,=xotl(N)=foot,
=shoe(E).

carlos lascoutx said...

Caucasus(E)=Kavkas(R)=
cauhtica/cauhtiquiza caxitl(N)=
to make a stop along the road,
to make shields/bowls/utensils,
caua/stop quiza/squeeze=maquiza/
hand squeeze/escape fm danger,=
magic(E)=maho/majo(J)=Maju/Mari,
=majo(J)=run under full sail.

DDeden said...

Nirjhar007:
"Amerind (misc.) : *(a)kuan 'dog'

Cree: atimwa 'dog'/animal that pulls
Cree: misatim 'lion' or 'horse'

Innuit: komatim 'dogsled'

carlos lascoutx said...

serpent=se/ce(r)p/b/v/uentli=
ce uentli(N)=one offering,=
seven snake=chicome coatl=
feast/famine deity mesoAmerinda=
7th day of 7th trecena=ahuitl/
aunt(E)/aristo(Gk)=Quiahuitl=
rainstorm.

Nirjhar007 said...

@David,
what the fck with this Spams??? can't you do anything or will not do?!!!!!

Nirjhar007 said...

@Postneo
''Isn't bow and arrow older than the spread of the Zarzian culture northwards. Their advantage would simply be demographics, domestication and immunological. they were expanding into vacuum.. regions, more affected by the ice age.''
I think ice age is little older to take into consideration:) but a better culture with superior lifestyle with the mastering of farming[in case of CWC were mostly nomads but had a healthier diet than the pre-existing H-Gs] with domestication and probably military strength also was more of the reason! on robustness of IE-Folks moving deep into Europe you can check this post of David-
http://polishgenes.blogspot.in/2014/09/corded-ware-people-more-versatile-and.html
I think after assimilated with Uralic Hunter-Gatherers as latest research indicates they continued with their ventures deep into Europe.

Nirjhar007 said...

@Postneo
==MORE ON LAKSA==
I will later tell more about the Tiger stuff but first more on Salmons Etymology: From Giacomo i came to discover a good etymology is from a root *lak̑- meaning 'to spot, speckle', but it is
in German: http://www.dwds.de/?qu=Lachs
The Sanskrit lākṣā/rākṣā is clearly 'red', He suggests that lakṣa 'sign' can be related to the root
meaning 'to spot', maybe also the 'red' meaning, is a concept of a colour which 'spots'.
more study is on the way, but it seems a good track....
Kamon Thanda okhaney Rajorshi?

carlos lascoutx said...

Turk=to/u(r)k/ca=toca(N)=sow and bury,=dukkha(Pali)=dukha(Skt)=
suffering,=bsngal/sdug(Tibet/tepetl)
buddha/potli(N)=both/brother:
"i have taught one thing only,
Dukkha."=Tzaatan Dukha(Turkic Mongol
deer tribe)=Mazatlan toca(Nawa).

postneo said...

@NIrjhar

So far I don't know of any cultural or historic literary context where laksha denotes red or colour. Much like you don't say he is wearing a spinach(coloured) shirt or she has algae coloured eyes. Its the name of a substance that just happens to be red. In MahabhArata lAkshAgriha is notably a combustible house not a red house. when you emboss a document with red resin/wax it will be chinha(sign) and not laksha(focal point, aim)

why are MORE COMMON RED THINGS NOT CALLED LAC, only this obscure substance encountered late in migration. Why does lax not mean red in Europe.

even in the Indian context lakh I think 100,000 and lakh shellac are unrelated and someone came up with a fanciful link. Witzel is trying to pull a fast one in similar vein with an even more fanciful story.

A better relation could instead be latin locus,
indian lakshya meaning focus, act of aiming, target (not jus a red spot but a spot/locationin general) and even english(germanaic non PIE?) look.

A weaker relation may be possible between germanaic, lachs (speckled fish as you say) and lakh the number. But there is still no way to link them to the substance Lac or lakshya(aim). In fact the meaning is opposite: single spot vs many. Most trout species are speckled but the spots are not generally red.

We should not emulate the fanciful etymologies of indologists. Its useless to analyze statistically irrelevant single word etymologies.

Only reason is to understand the psychology and BOGUS nature of the arguments for supposed european faunal references in sanskrit.

This is similar to the cottage industry surrounding count dracula. Today its less well known that he was a local folk hero as opposed to the recent literary fabrications of the last century.

The only other temperate faunal references that come to mind are birch and willow. Birch may be genuine. Willow seems similarly bogus.

There maybe better linguistic low hanging fruit which I wont go into here.

capra internetensis said...

If people come from somewhere where there is a plant or animal or other thing which they have a name for, then migrate somewhere else where that thing is not to be found, they will sooner or later probably either lose the word for that thing entirely, or transfer it to something else. Sure, they might keep memory of it in literature or ritual if it was particularly important, but even then details are likely to fade.

For that matter, without anyone going anywhere, people *still* constantly drop words, or change their meanings.

So of course we would not expect to find ancient inherited words for Europe-specific things in Indian languages, or India-specific things in European languages, regardless of where the proto-language was spoken.

(Also, there are very few plants and animals in Europe that don't have close relatives, if not the same species, in the western Himalayas and the highlands of Central Asia even today, much less thousands of years ago. And vice versa, though to a lesser extent if you exclude the borders of West Asia.)

Mere absence of a word tells you practically nothing. If an entire *field* of words is missing, that may be statistically relevant. But if the field of words is something like "animals that are not found anywhere near here", well, again not meaningful.

The *existence* of a solidly reconstructable word does tell you something, but unless you can reconstruct it to widely separated and distantly related branches, then how do you know it existed in the proto-language rather than being coined at a later stage? ("Tiger" can only be reconstructed to *one* branch.) In practice usually you will reconstruct it to both Indo-Iranian and some western European language, which means that almost all words accepted as going back to PIE will show up in Indo-Iranian, and probably in Sanskrit, simply as a matter of methodology.

Then, apart from the validity of the etymology itself, how do you know what was the original meaning, if it is different in different areas (as with "beaver"?)

Davidski said...

Nirjhar,

Corded Ware people weren't mixed with Uralics, because the majority of Northern and Eastern Europeans don't show any Uralic admixture, which is easy to pick up by running f3 stats like this.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQNExobmo3WDFmdmM/view?usp=sharing

Northern and Eastern European groups that cluster right of the line are either Uralic-speakers or come from areas in which Uralic was spoken until very recently. But most Northern and Eastern Europeans cluster left of the line.

Nirjhar007 said...

@David Wesolowski
''Corded Ware people weren't mixed with Uralics, because the majority of Northern and Eastern Europeans don't show any Uralic admixture, which is easy to pick up by running f3 stats like this.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQNExobmo3WDFmdmM/view?usp=sharing

Northern and Eastern European groups that cluster right of the line are either Uralic-speakers or come from areas in which Uralic was spoken until very recently. But most Northern and Eastern Europeans cluster left of the line.''
Hi!, how is your vacation going?
About Components you very well know how relative they are and they do not speak languages and depends on which geographical population it is created from you can't also directly associate them with Y or Mt Hgs! on the other hand LANGUAGE DON'T LIE the Balto-Slavs show as i pointed some many changes and characteristics which are alien for PIE and not found in other Indo-European languages like of like palatal lateral and palatalized trill which again shows clinical Uralic H-Gs effect add to that their Phonetic developments also typical of Uralic.....

Nirjhar007 said...

@ capra internetensis
''If people come from somewhere where there is a plant or animal or other thing which they have a name for, then migrate somewhere else...''
''The *existence* of a solidly reconstructable word does tell you something, but unless you can reconstruct it to widely separated and distantly related branches, then how do you know it existed in the proto-language rather than being coined at a later stage? ("Tiger" can only be reconstructed to *one* branch.) ''
You have Missed something here, The Basal and Primary things are the Roots and the basal meaning associated with them, its application is secondary and by no means should be related with the meaning of the root! For example for Beaver the PIE root is *bhebhrus, reduplication of root *bher- "brown, bright" (cognates: Lithuanian bebrus, Czech bobr, Welsh befer that root is as said BOTH has its original basal meaning which is brown/bright and secondary application for animals and humans well preserved in SC Asian with its original Voiced Aspirated form-
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=+babhru&trans=Translate&direction=AU
Hindi still use the term Bhura to denote the color Brown with the aspiration of B-
https://translate.google.co.in/#hi/en/%E0%A4%AD%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE
About Tiger like components things are highly relative there is a compelling evidence as i linked from Rig-Veda above that the Term for lion in that time was actually associated with tiger also! and Simha as i linked is already reconstructed for PIE as *sing'h-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1&off=&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_hitt=&method_hitt=substring&ic_hitt=on&text_tokh=&method_tokh=substring&ic_tokh=on&text_ind=&method_ind=substring&ic_ind=on&text_avest=&method_avest=substring&ic_avest=on&text_iran=&method_iran=substring&ic_iran=on&text_arm=&method_arm=substring&ic_arm=on&text_greek=&method_greek=substring&ic_greek=on&text_slav=&method_slav=substring&ic_slav=on&text_balt=&method_balt=substring&ic_balt=on&text_germ=&method_germ=substring&ic_germ=on&text_lat=&method_lat=substring&ic_lat=on&text_ital=&method_ital=substring&ic_ital=on&text_celt=&method_celt=substring&ic_celt=on&text_alb=&method_alb=substring&ic_alb=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_refer=&method_refer=substring&ic_refer=on&text_comment=&method_comment=substring&ic_comment=on&text_any=singh&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on
And another term Vyaghra also has cognates in Persian,Armenian and Indo-Aryan.
The things is sometimes if the root is specific to a subject like for Lion or Tiger with its Basal meaning applied to it only, language groups discards their use as they can't be used as versatile way like in case of Bhabhrus as they migrate.
I quote something from Maxmueller on the Conservative nature of Aryan language-
''“[A]s in his language and in his grammar [the Indian] has preserved something of
what seems peculiar to each of the northern [Indo-european] dialects singly, as he
agrees with the Greek and the German where the Greek and the German seem to
differ from all the rest … no other language has carried off so large a share of the
common Aryan heirloom – whether roots, grammar, words, myths or
legends”''
http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/RAI_Aug_2012.pdf
You may discard the professors date of Rig-Veda BTW:).....

Davidski said...

So according to you, there were at least two genetically different Uralic groups in Eastern Europe, one with East Eurasian admixture and the other without? And it was only the latter that contributed DNA to the present-day Indo-Europeans of Northern and Eastern Europe?

Do you know what Occam's razor is?

Nirjhar007 said...

@ Postneo
''So far I don't know of any cultural or historic literary context where laksha denotes red or colour. ''
Yes but as Monier-Williams point out
1.lakSa m. or n. `" that which is attached or fixed "') a mark , sign , token , (esp.) a mark to aim at , target , butt , aim etc
The original meaning is associated with Spots,signs t *lak̑- meaning 'to spot, speckle'
2.lAkSA f. (cf. %{rAkSA} and Un2. iii , 62 Sch.) a species of plant AV. ; a kind of red dye , lac (obtained from the cochineal or a similar insect as well as from the resin of a partic. tree) Mn. MBh. &c. ; the insect or animal which produces the red dye MW is something we need more study but again its clear that Fish is not the issue here at all which was applied in later stages of Northward expansions:)....
Tumi kamon thanda toh bollena?;)....

Nirjhar007 said...

@David
'' one with East Eurasian admixture and the other without?''
aDNA is needed.
'' And it was only the latter that contributed DNA to the present-day Indo-Europeans of Northern and Eastern Europe?''
Did i say of Genetic Contribution? I said of Language and its practical characteristics....

postneo said...

@capra
There is no absolute way of knowing if *bhebhru meant brown or beaver originally. The sanskrit word babhru is closer to reconstructed PIE. Perhaps also in meaning its closer ?

There are also the non sanskrit hindi variant bhUrA meaning brown. Unlike sanskrit, the voiced aspirate is in the initial position. so together bhUra and babhru converge to reconstructed PIE

For analysis preference should to words that have similar meanings and good statistical representation in all branches.

postneo said...

OK a correction needed. Theres also *bhruhnos for brown so bhUrA I mentioned earlier probably is a separate root from *bhebhru but having similar meaning.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=brown&allowed_in_frame=0

In english theres are the homonyms bear(noun), bear(verb). Both seem to be represented in India

in sanskrit bharati (he bears) bhAr (load) etc which Nirjhar already covered.

the noun bear or animal is bhAlU in hindi. Theres also rIchha in hindi rksa in sanskrit also meaning the animal similar to latin ursus and greek arktos.
So coverage is really good

From Middle English bere, from Old English bera, from Proto-Germanic *berô (compare West Frisian bear, Dutch beer, German Bär, Danish bjørn).

capra internetensis said...

@postneo:

babhru looks like a straightforward reduplication. The initial bh- loses its aspiration regularly before another aspirate. This maybe comes from the word for "brown", but maybe vice versa - colour words very often are derived from things of that colour.

There is in fact an Avestan cognate, bawra, which is generally translated as "beaver" too - while the translation is not certain, it is in any case some kind of aquatic animal with valuable fur. And the earliest actual attestation of babhru is in a Hurrian loanword babrunnureferring to the colour of horses (fur again).

So a reconstruction to "beaver", while not certain, is quite likely. But then the beaver once ranged much further south than it does now. The Eurasian beaver was found in Khuzestan in the 19th century, and the American beaver in northern Mexico.

capra internetensis said...

@Nirjhar:

I'm afraid I don't follow what you are trying to say about word roots. Cognate roots are generally much easier to find than cognate whole words, because they are reflected in many different forms, but on the other hand the meaning is usually less certain and there is more chance of conflating different etymons or of coming up with something entirely spurious.

Following your link for *sing'h-, it says "an areal word; dubious as a PIE form". And if it might mean "tiger" or "lion" or "leopard", how does that help? There were lions in SE Europe, in the Caucasus, thoughout West Asia; they even survived well into the Holocene in the Pontic steppe.

Persian is part of the Indo-Iranian branch, and the Armenian is most likely a borrowing from that branch, as I already mentioned.

With all due respect to Friedrich Max Mueller, he was writing in the 19th century, before the decipherment of Hittite or the discovery of Tocharian, long before radiocarbon dating or DNA. His opinion is not particularly relevant.

carlos lascoutx said...

ue(N(adj)=way,=uel(reverential)=
well,=i(N/verb)=dr-i/n-k= iueli(N/adv)=river/Iberia/Siberia=
uel/ver/ber=bear=per/tla=petla(N)=
throw,=petra(L)/piedra(Sp).
beaver=bever/age=bevel=be/ueuel=
iueli=poderoso=oso(Sp)=iveri/ivory=iuelipantli(N)=powerflag=elephant=Llewelyn(Wales).
whales=ual(N)=war=toward=
b/várvar=varvar(R)=barbarian= Berber(Mazyectli)=ualual(N)=
ualtzaqua(N)=turn about a point/
revolt/revolve,=waltz(dance/tlaca)

Nirjhar007 said...

@Capra internetensis
''babhru looks like a straightforward reduplication. The initial bh- loses its aspiration regularly before another aspirate. This maybe comes from the word for "brown", but maybe vice versa - colour words very often are derived from things of that colour. ''
No i describe in few minutes....
''There is in fact an Avestan cognate, bawra, which is generally translated as "beaver" too - while the translation is not certain''
Its most likely Otter as referenced here-
http://sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe23/sbe2310.htm#fn_413
''The Eurasian beaver was found in Khuzestan in the 19th century, and the American beaver in northern Mexico.''
The Avestan geography is out of that zone of Khuzestan and in the text while describing Anahiti, it says she wore a garment made of bawra fur. This word appears in Menog-i-khrad (also as Pahl. water baprak) as a sacred animal killing of whom is a great sin but beaver had never lived in (greater Iran). Its habitat is more in Northern steps. Therefore, such a command "not to kill it" as ''Beaver'' is out of place but otter fits well as considering its "brown" skin is more valuable.
Similar we see in case of Secondary application in Indo-Aryans as Babhru is applied to animals like of Mongoose and MW clarifies-
babhru mf(%{u} , or %{U4})n. (according to Un2. i , 23 fr. %{bhR}) deep-brown , reddish-brown , tawny RV. &c. &c. ; bald-headed L. ; m. a kind of large ichneumon L. ; any ichneumon MBh. Hariv. ; a man with deep-brown hair Mn. iv , 30 (others `" a reddish-brown animal "' or `" the Soma creeper "') ; Cuculus Melanoleucus (= %{cAtaka}) L. ; a species of vegetable L. ; N. of Kr2ishn2a-Vishn2u or of S3iva MBh. ; a king , prince ib. ; a partic. constellation (= %{babhruka}) VarBr2S. Sch. ; N. of sev. men (cf. g. %{gargA7di}) ; of a descendant of Atri (author of RV. v , 30) Anukr. (also with the patr. Daiva1vr2idha and Kaumbhya Br. MBh. Pur.) ; of a disciple of S3aunaka VP. ; of a son of Vis3va1-mitra MBh. (also pl. Hariv. ) ; of a son of Vis3va-garbha Hariv. ; of a Vr2ishn2i MBh. Hariv. ; of a son of Druhyu Hariv. ; of a son of Roma-pa1da or Loma-pa1da ib. ; of a Gandharva R. ; of a country (= %{-deza}) L. ; (%{u}) f. a reddish-brown cow , Bhp. ; n. a dark-brown colour or any object of that cñcolour W. [Cf. Gk. $ ; Lith. {be4ras} , {bru4nas} ; Germ. {bru7n} , &219711[721 ,3] {braun} ; Eng. {brown}.]
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche
So in case of Secondary application we see it can mean anything....

Nirjhar007 said...

''Following your link for *sing'h-, it says "an areal word; dubious as a PIE form". And if it might mean "tiger" or "lion" or "leopard", how does that help?''
It helps very much as another classic example of inconclusiveness of Secondary application of roots! another is Proto-IE: *prd- "panther, tiger." Old Greek: párdo-s m.; párdalo-s m., párdali-s, -ios/-eōs `Pardel, Panther, Leopard' Iranian: Sogd pwrδnk, Pashto pṛāng, NPers palang `panther'
But in Case of Indo-Aryan Prdaku we have meanings more versatile-
1pRdAku m. an adder , viper , snake VS. TS. AV. MBh. (also %{pRdAkU4} , f). a tiger or panther L. [cf. Lat. {pardus} , {pardalis} &c.] ; an elephant L. ; a tree L
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/MWScan/tamil/index.html
Same we see as you exampled with Hurrian loanword babrunnu referring to the colour of horses not of Beaver so...
''d I don't follow what you are trying to say about word roots''
Here the thing every root has a basal meaning associated with it like for Babhrus as its a straightforward reduplication the original root is PIE *bhar- "bright, brown"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=beaver&searchmode=none
That root *Bhar which has basal as Shining,Brown comes from the source root from PIE root *bha- (1) "to shine" (cognates: Sanskrit bhati "shines, glitters," Old Irish ban "white, light, ray of light" Sanskrit also has Bhalluka Bear, Pra-Bha as , to shine forth , begin to become light , shine , gleam .....

Nirjhar007 said...

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=phantasm&allowed_in_frame=0
Abha as to shine or blaze towards RV. AV. ; to irradiate , outshine , illumine etc and there is Prabhata,Prabhasa etc also, So we see here by breaking the root of which's secondary meaning was applied for otter,beaver,mongoose and people,plants etc in various branches has its original basal meaning from basal root*Bha- 'to shine' best preserved in Indic! the secondary application can be to anything that has something matching to it like shining fur or brownish animals ,brown beared people,plants etc Both in Indic and Other Branches....
''Persian is part of the Indo-Iranian branch, and the Armenian is most likely a borrowing from that branch, as I already mentioned.''
Manfred Mayrhofers analysis is Published here on Vyaghra you can see that above somewhere and if him don't consider the Armenian one as a loan word then its most likely not!....
''With all due respect to Friedrich Max Mueller, he was writing in the 19th century, before the decipherment of Hittite or the discovery of Tocharian, long before radiocarbon dating or DNA. His opinion is not particularly relevant.''
Capra if you don't mind i would like to hangout you since here is massive spam problem i suggest to give an email address in my blog i will not publish it: i'm serious.....
And about Max Muellers quote i gave you a research on Rigveda that points out that even after the Discovery of Hittite and Tokharian that quotation has robust validity still!...
You just have to neglect Prof. Kazanas's date of Rigveda BTW which is impractical!. Don't forget about our date;)......

postneo said...

@capra: And the earliest actual attestation of babhru is in a Hurrian loanword babrunnureferring to the colour of horses (fur again).

So how is it hurrian loan and not mitanni ?

babrunnu is more likely a colour descriptor. beaver horse does not make sense since there is already a presumed animal reference? It would be interesting to know the sentence and context. Usage would be more clear.

The root bhu is associated with earth. as in bhUmI also with the verb bear bharati as in the earth bears everything.

Its more likely that the beaver is earth/mud coloured rather than mud is beaver coloured !

Theres also bhrUNa(pregnant, embryo, child), bhrNAti(bear) with nasal retroflex flaps. Similar to breed , brood in germanic with final alveolar.

This sound is "taboo" in PIE proper(should it be?) The PIE reconstruction *bhreue seems inadequate since its missing the final stop.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=breed&allowed_in_frame=0

*bhreu .. braise, fry, brew(boil) are well represented in india by ordinary words like bhurjI , bhAjA etc and sanskrit bhrjja and should form a separate root from breed.

carlos lascoutx said...

brown=brun(OE)=bruin(Du)=
b/v/ulin=iueli(N).

Nirjhar007 said...

@Postneo
Rajorshi shono tomake ami dekhte chai toh tumi jodi chao taholey tomar mail amaar blogey comment hisabe diye dite paro ami moderation on rekhechi tai seta prokash hobena:) aar amra dujon ke dekhte o aro bhalo kore jante parbo! BTW ami facebook etc korina tai sesober proshnoi othena.....
Bhalo theko.

postneo said...

@nirjhar
Kon bloger kotha hocche
New indology? Ami ki bloge email ta comment e debo?

Nirjhar007 said...

Na ota bondhu giacomor blog amaar noy:) eta amaar-
http://njsaryablog.blogspot.in/
Tomake doshdiya jaina karon amaarta khuboi apracholito.
Aaj sondha 6ta bharotiyo somoy cholbe?
suvom.

carlos lascoutx said...

if you don't have a sense of humor about yourself and language then
you're not seeing the material clearly. tks and adiós.

DDeden said...

Perhaps Central Asian tigers moved east into the Amur river forested area due to increased windiness on the steppe, with only a few left survivng in windblocked pockets by the time of PIE formation.

regarding my earlier comment:

"pulli(Tamil) tiger = color of pollen(ator)=melli/honey/madhunnig(Hindi?)/hunnig(German) = yellow = kuning(Malay) ~ *ku'anjing(*Malay)=PIE Ku'on/c'anine "

I just saw this article on Mad Honey (Turk: deli bal):

"Mad honey originated in the Black Sea region of Eastern Turkey ...where rhododendron luteum/ponticum flowers grow.. have a natural neurotoxin called grayanotoxin in their nectars... gives a kind of buzz" http://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/mad-honey-deli-bal/

DDeden said...

I didn't expect to add more, but
I was startled when reading an article by Marnie Dunsmore at Linear Population Model blog accusing me (based on my comments here on this Tiger thread apparently) of being a professor at Max Planck Institute (?!).

Sorry but I'M NOT THAT SMART.

DD, DDeden, DD'eDeN @ Miami Beach
my blog: http://the-arc-ddeden.blogspot.com/

re. http://linearpopulationmodel.blogspot.com/2015/01/bullying-in-genome-blogosphere-by.html

Simon_W said...

On a general note, and without going into details about the origins of the IE words for tiger: In linguistic paleontology, there applies the principle that absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. We cannot expect that every single word of the PIE vocabulary can still be reconstructed today. By chance there may have happened too many changes and losses with regards to a particular PIE word that a reconstruction as PIE is no longer feasible. So it's better to stick to the positive evidence we've got.

Suresh Vaikkakara said...

It is interesting that Tigre in Persian is fast because in Sanskrit it is Tivra. It is equally interesting that Shegr was the old Persian for Sher (Lion) since Sheekhr also means fast in Sanskrit. Thus it seems that Sheekr (Shegr) and Tivra (Tigre) both meaning might mean fast as their cognate words in Sanskrit do.

Dr Purva Pius said...

Hello Everybody,
My name is Mrs Sharon Sim. I live in Singapore and i am a happy woman today? and i told my self that any lender that rescue my family from our poor situation, i will refer any person that is looking for loan to him, he gave me happiness to me and my family, i was in need of a loan of S$250,000.00 to start my life all over as i am a single mother with 3 kids I met this honest and GOD fearing man loan lender that help me with a loan of S$250,000.00 SG. Dollar, he is a GOD fearing man, if you are in need of loan and you will pay back the loan please contact him tell him that is Mrs Sharon, that refer you to him. contact Dr Purva Pius,via email:(urgentloan22@gmail.com) Thank you.

BORROWERS APPLICATION DETAILS


1. Name Of Applicant in Full:……..
2. Telephone Numbers:……….
3. Address and Location:…….
4. Amount in request………..
5. Repayment Period:………..
6. Purpose Of Loan………….
7. country…………………
8. phone…………………..
9. occupation………………
10.age/sex…………………
11.Monthly Income…………..
12.Email……………..

Regards.
Managements
Email Kindly Contact: urgentloan22@gmail.com

DDeden said...

New information on Caspian tigers:

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/01/tigers-could-roam-again-in-central-asia.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheArchaeologyNewsNetwork+(The+Archaeology+News+Network)#RmZRZWMWMj9lzY5r.97