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Tuesday, March 24, 2015

Live reports from AAPA 2015

Chad Rohlfsen is heading off to St. Louis tomorrow for the annual American Association of Physical Anthropologists (AAPA) conference, and will be posting updates from the big event in the comments below. Most of you will know Chad from the comments section on this blog. He's yet to finalize his program, but I know he'll be at this talk on the population history of the Aegean.

The origins of the Aegean palatial civilizations from a population genetic perspective

MARTINA UNTERLĂ„NDER1,2, SUSANNE KREUTZER2 and CHRISTINA PAPAGEORGOPOULOU1. 1 Department of History and Ethnology, Demokritus University of Thrace, 2 Palaeogenetics Group, Institute of Anthropology, Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz.

The present paper investigates the origins of the Aegean pre-palatial civilizations (5th-3rd millennium BC) by applying cutting-edge methods of molecular biology and population genetics. The term Aegean Civilizations refers to the novel human lifeway (agriculture and craft specialization, redistribution systems, intensive trade) that appeared during the end of the Neolithic and the beginning of the Bronze Age in the Aegean. Although many studies exist on archaeological constructions of ethnic and cultural identity on mainland Greece, the Cyclades and Crete, not enough efforts have been made to explore this direction on a population history basis. We have investigated Late, Final Neolithic and Early Bronze Age human skeletons (n=127) from the Aegean using ancient DNA methods, next generation sequencing (NGS) technology and statistical population genetic inferences to i) gather information on diversity, population size, and origin of the pre-palatial Aegean Cultures, ii) to compare them on a genetic basis, in terms of their cultural division (Helladic, Cycladic, Minoan) and iii) to investigate their ancestral/non-ancestral status to the Early and Middle Neolithic farmers from Greece. In addition to mitochondrial DNA genomes, by applying a capture-NGS approach we collected information on functional traits of the early Aegean communities in southeastern Europe. Considering the International Spirit that overwhelms the Aegean during the 3rd millennium BC, seen by the wide distribution of artifacts, this palaeogenetic approach provides valuable new insights on population structure of the groups involved in the Neolithic-Bronze Age transition and the spread of specific alleles in this part of Europe.

Feel free to help Chad plan the rest of his itinerary. The AAPA 2015 website is here. You can download a PDF book with all of the abstracts here.

By the way, Chad is paying for the trip himself. If anyone wants to help him cover the costs, please send contributions via PayPal to c_rohlfsen [at] hotmail [dot] com.


Chad Rohlfsen said...

I'm thinking about the presentations on..

Siberian ancient genomes

Human migration with genetic and linguistic data

Evolutionary history of Native Americans

Skin, hair, and eye pigmentation from ancient DNA

Does anyone else have any recommendations?

Mike Thomas said...


I already sent Chad a little donation earlier.

Those first 3, in addition to the Aegean paper, sound interesting. Probe the presenters if/ what they might be seeing in the Aegean Bronze Age.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Will do! I don't mind over-asking.

Davidski said...


Try and take a pic of this poster presentation. It'll be up in the Archive Ballroom on Thursday until 6pm.

No longer the 1%: Optimizing ancient DNA yield from Saharan African samples

Mike Thomas said...

Good idea
Maybe some nice photos of the corresponding posters

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Sure thing!!

Nirjhar007 said...

Best of Luck Chad!

Krefter said...

Here's a very thorough Hirisplex analysis of Mesolithic-Bronze age genomes, incase anyone is interested.

LN/BA are even a little differnt than their closest modern relatives, but only slightly. 20 random LN/BA dudes walking together down the street wouldn't get a second glance, but under a microscope they're differnt.

Matt said...

Re: the Kendra Sirak presentation, she notes on her linkedin she is looking at DNA dating back to the Mesolithic period of Sudan / Nubia - -

"Currently, I am analyzing the ancient DNA of specimens ranging from Mesolithic to Christian periods from the villages of Wadi Halfa (in an area known as Nubia) and Kulubnarti (in an area known as the Batn-el-Hajar) in Sudan."

So maybe something more ancient than the Christian era could be forthcoming. She has been working, I think, with Pinhasi who was involved in the Gamba 2014 work (use petruous bone to enrich sample data).

fz said...

Taking photos of posters is prohibited at most scientific meetings as part of your agreement to register for the meeting. At least a permission from the authors should be sought before hand. Some authors print out their posters on regular size papers to hand out though.

Matt said...

@ Krefter, interesting analysis, particularly seeing the EHG, which were not (I think) mentioned in the other papers. Looking at all these together:

It's unusual that the Ajv58 from the Pitted Ware Culture (approx 3000-2000BC) at the same time as Funnelbeaker (Gokhem) and the Corded Ware has dark variants while the Motala group *and* EHG from around 5000BC generally don't. Maybe further work on samples from the Pitted Ware culture could detect if this was a trend.

Likewise with the early and middle Neolithic Spanish and German populations. They are already different in genetic predicted height by the Early Neolithic - these Central-North_MN vs Spanish samples also show some difference in skin pigmentation (and it could be logical if they did), but it would take many more samples to say if this is statistically real.

Krefter said...

"It's unusual that the Ajv58 from the Pitted Ware Culture (approx 3000-2000BC) at the same time as Funnelbeaker (Gokhem) and the Corded Ware has dark variants while the Motala group *and* EHG from around 5000BC generally don't. Maybe further work on samples from the Pitted Ware culture could detect if this was a trend."

According to Geneticker Ajv52 had CC in rs28777, which means he most defiantly had GC or CC in rs16891982 like Ajv58. That's only 2 samples though, not nearly enough to say they had more dark alleles than Mesolithic EHG and SHG.

Krefter said...


67% of Sardinians have 374F(derived allele rs16891982) according to this study, while most other Euros have around 90%(besides Iberians).

I think this means 67% have GC or GG, but I'm not sure. 46%(12/26) Neolithic Euros have GC or GG. Some Iberians have it in the lower 70s.

Another interesting trend I noticed is ~50%(10/21) of Neolithic Central-North Euros have light eyes, while 0% of the Spanish ones do(0/5). All but one of the Spanish EEFs had AA in rs12913832. Today almost 80% of Iberians have AG or AA and nearly 100% of Sardinians do.

Romulus said...


There was probably a high level of contact between south europe and north africa in the Neolithic, I think we all agree that the E1b in Europe arrived then and that can explain the trend towards darker pigmentation in the South.

Krefter said...

Romulus, sure there may be north African ancestry in South Europe, but it must be tiny, because they show little to no signs of Sub Saharan ancestry.

E1b-V13 was found in Neolithic Spain and it's probably been in the Balkans longer, and there's plenty in west Asia which can be another source.

I think Iberians in terms of 374F simply stayed more the same. There's a good chance Cardial farmers looked a lot like Sardinians.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

I've arrived! Construction is rediculous!

Btw, I think contact with North Africa may be older. I've got some strange Dstats for LaBrana, which I'll share in a bit.

Davidski said...

What construction?

Btw, are you in the city center? Post some pics of St. Louis if you can. I've never been there.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

It's one giant construction zone here. My exit didn't exist! I just said screw it and took a random exit and took the streets.

I'm on the 25th floor, with the Gateway Arch outside my window.

Davidski said...

Ah, I see.

By the way, I spotted a curious poster and a couple of interesting presentations on modern and ancient cranial variation. This will be up on Thursday in the Archview Ballroom.

Craniometric variation in Ancient Egypt and influences from the East

These presentations are on Friday.

Is there structure in the Euro-American population?: Evidence from cranial morphology

Cranial shape and the transition to agriculture

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Although this is not terribly significant, I believe that LaBrana has some of this "Ancient West Eurasian", that is in Africans. Or, the ancient WHG hunters were basically identical to the ones in West Asia and North Africa. There is something unique about LaBrana, compared to the other two, whom are pretty significantly more related to Motala.

BedouinB Somali LaBrana1 Loschbour -0.0102 -3.323

BedouinB Esan LaBrana1 Loschbour -0.0089 -2.288

BedouinB Gambian LaBrana1 Loschbour -0.0107 -2.724

BedouinB Masai LaBrana1 Loschbour -0.0089 -2.570

BedouinB BantuKenya LaBrana1 Loschbour -0.0094 -2.291

When going away from something so basal, and towards something more "ANE"/WHG shifted, it becomes much lower. With the right reference, possibly some ancient Anatolian, we would probably find LaBrana as a better fit.

I'll keep working at it.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Maybe, an ancient Arabian, or these ancient Africans will have something more related to LaBrana. Time will tell.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

I've also go LaBrana equally, to minimally more related to (-1.2) HungaryGamba_EN samples, Starcevo, LBKT, and Koros2, as to Spain EN!

Chad Rohlfsen said...


"got" LaBrana, "than" to Spain_EN

Grey said...

"Btw, I think contact with North Africa may be older. I've got some strange Dstats for LaBrana, which I'll share in a bit."


Mike Thomas said...

@ Krefter

Re:E-V13 "there's plenty in west Asia which can be another source."

I don't think there's much there at all. A handful of turks and couple of Druze .

Otherwise, the closest 'cousin' clades are all very much nested in North africa

So perhaps it might have arrived directly from Northeast Africa ? (and if via west asia, must have more or less near-died out there).

Question when ? Certainly before the Neolithic. Perhaps around the the LGM when the Med sea was lower, and southern Europe was more connected to North Africa and the Mediterranean islands (?)

jackson_montgomery_devoni said...

It is great that you were able to make it to this event Chad. Thank you! Did you manage to get any juicy tidbits from the talks?

Davidski said...

He's going to his first presentations in a few hours. It's almost 7 am in St. Louis now.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Just waiting for registration

Nirjhar007 said...

David,Its going to be very interesting and I can't wait BTW congrats to Australia! the run out of Dhoni was the perfect gist of the match the Aussies just didn't miss any crucial opportunities!

jackson_montgomery_devoni said...

Ahhh okay great.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

I have a decent amount of stuff here, but may have to wait to post it until I'm back to my computer. There's a couple more this morning, then I'm going back to my room for a bit. I'll try to type up some, before going to session 18

Chad Rohlfsen said...

High altitude adaptation and adaptive introgression in humans

Rasmus Nielsen

Tibetans produce fewer red-blood cells to avoid hypoxia.

Different genes are involved in adaptation among Ethiopians. They actually are connected to the circadian rhythm!

There's strong evidence of introgression from Denisovans. No more than in other East Asians. Han Chinese also show this gene, but in lower frequencies. High selection among Tibetans.

Introgression is dated to about 40-45kya.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Human tree

On the human phylogenic tree, island models fail miserably.

Africans match up or fit better with data, when separated from Eurasians.

West and East Eurasians also fit better when separated.

They're hypothesizing and possibly testing whether this is affected by Neandertal and Denisova introgression.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Correlation of linguistic and genetic markers

Studying modern human migrations with integrated analysis of genetic and linguistic data


They used phonemes and genetic data

2082 languages and 728 unique phonemes

gene set is from 139 populations

phonemes also don't match with out of Africa genetic data, as we've talked about on several places. For instance, Europe looks like a language origin place with low phoneme diversity.

neighboring languages share phonemes, even when coming from different language families.

Isolated languages have more phonemes.

both genes and phoneme are affected by population movements

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Evolutionay History of Native Americans

Ripan Malhi

They're focusing on a population in British Columbia, on Prince Rupert Harbor.

They're looking for structure through the mtDNA, to see how many separate groups participated in the formation of this native population.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

I spoke with a Jennifer Raff, I believe, on populations in Northern Alaska. They're looking at the amount of input from non-native sources.

They will have data on mtdna coming out within the next month, ydna later this fall, and aDNA after that.

There was apparently some Afro-Carribean found!!

There's a wide variety of European input into the population. A lot looks American.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Looking at the poster on cranial shape, it appears that we could have issues with the Neandertal and Denisova introgression involved in the splits. I could be mistaken, as I was trying to listen in to his talk with another group.

There is also an affect on skull shape with the environment. The Buriat, for example, deviate pretty well from other pops

Chad Rohlfsen said...

On the poster shown by Iain Mathieson,

Yamnaya were the tallest.

SHG were taller than WHG.

EN central Euros were taller than Early Iberian farmers.

Height decreased during the MN in Spain.

Pretty much everything is the same as the abstract.

Something new he shared, is a higher quality LaBrana sample is coming.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

I'm finishing up my lunch, then I'll head back for Session 18, which includes the Aegean samples.

Nirjhar007 said...

Nice Going Bud......

capra internetensis said...

Thanks for doing this, Chad!

Denisovan introgression 40-45 kya, very interesting. I wonder if this also holds for Papuans, or only East Asians.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Front-row seat! Just waiting. I may have to wait and post until I get back to my room.

Grey said...


great stuff

Chad Rohlfsen said...

OoA expansion affected accumulation of deleterious alleles in human genomes


Small founder effect during OoA then another small effective population into new areas with new expansions. Only a subset of each population moves into a new area.

Purifying selection is at work. Purifying selection is less efficient in populations with low effective populations size.

Up to 90% of variants are over 5% in human populations. Only 2% are rare. Large variants contribute more. Deleterious alleles increase as you move from Africa

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Analysis of cell-specific regulatory DNA reveals elevated immune specificity in genomic regions of high Neandertal ancestry


Looking at responses to bacterial infection.

Used the Altai Neandertal, with CEU and Yoruba samples.

137,442 Neandertal sites in CEU, with focus on reaction to Salmonella with OAS3. Keying in on an anti-viral response/ blocking viral replication.

No link to Neandertal genes involvement in anti-bacterial yet, but Neandertal haplotype is associated with reduced OAS3 expression / inflammatory response, not regulation though?!?

Drift is unlikely to explain Neandertal haplotypes. Introgression is supported.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Neandertal and Denisova genetic affinities with contemporary humans


1-4% higher Neandertal similarity in non-Africans
6-8% Denisova in Melanesians.
Hybridization or sub-structure in ancient Africans??

Focused on 837 populations, 37758 SNPs
Both transitions and transversions were used

.. structure is not usually used for inter-specific mutation..
12.6% of SNPs are common ancestral SNPs

Double derived Neandertal/Denisovan, are higher in Melanesians.

They propose a drop out of Denisova affinity from Africans..
Neandertal affinity is the same in Europe and Melanesia.

I believe that they think the Denisova "admixture" is due to a retention of ancient DNA and founder effect, if I understand correctly.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Genetic diversity in NW Georgia


Focused on the Svan population


The Svan are an outlier with the Caucasus pops


Estimating the MRCA of G2a at 12.6kya via STRs

Svan between Ossets and Abkhaz in YDNA frequencies.

They're looking at ding aDNA analysis now.

Also, J, M, M1, N1b1, then got cut off

Chad Rohlfsen said...

that bottom addition was mtdna, sorry

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Genome-wide data from ancient Peruvian highlanders and the population history of South America


All share first American ancestry with limited genetic diversity. There are geographic distribution patterns/unknown forces/migration?

The study is mostly limited to mtDNA

The focus is on the Central Andes, as the most diverse.. there appears to be a discontinuity during pre-Columbian era, pre-Inca event.

10 individuals
range from 8000BP-1200CE
Central Andes and Argentinian Pampas

Whole-genome shotgun sequence on three samples, using Haak et al. 390k snps

Early archaic to 4.9x coverage
intermediate to 4.2x coverage
late to 2.0x coverage

Early archaic mtdna B2, A2
Mid archaic A2, D1
Late archaic A2 x 2
Early intermediate C1b, B2
Then got cut off....

Heat maps show that the archaic ancestry still peaks with modern pops in the area
Limited gene-flow into the area, that is not native.

The late sample shows introgression from something that looks modern native, at a rate of 60%. Something happened before the Inca period, which homogenized the population.. some migration event?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Group specific alleles and ascertainment bias in genomic diversity sets


All about AIM's, or Ancestry Informative Markers

A highly informative AIM is something that is over 30% in one pop, and less than 1% in every other pop. There are very few population specific markers

Using the Li et al. 2008 dataset of 690k? snps and 51 pops

1960 AIMS in Africans,
0 in Middle East
0 in Europe
... only a few in Asia, 6?, and got cut off

They looked at 3 branches, OoA, peopling of Oceania, peopling of America

This gave them 1960 African AIMS
1372 derived

2480 non-African AIMs, 2413 derived, but I didn't catch any breakdown of this within Eurasians.

Merging datasets to increase coverage decreases genomic density, loss of AIMS and population variation, from what I gathered.

Also used Full HapMap
1.5m SNPs, 11 pops, 6 non-African AIMs were identified.

When they merged the two data sets, 3546 of the AIMS were lost

Groups defined by migration events are more likely to contain highly informative AIMS

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Mitochondrial lineages in Assyrian populations


Sample collection from Yonkers, NY, and California

63 samples, 44 haplogroups .9811? diversity

Lots of H, HV, J, and K. Lack of A, B, C, D, F. Very much like Kurds and Armenians.

Religion looks to explain the difference, as religion posted a 0.000 pvalue, geography a .3695, nationality .6324, and language a .3773.

Using a 3d PCA, Assyrians and Iraqi Jews are most different from the rest, followed by Armenians.

Assyrians show 5 different types of K1, with little sharing with neighbors.

Krefter said...

"Using a 3d PCA, Assyrians and Iraqi Jews are most different from the rest, followed by Armenians. "

There's no point in using a PCA for mtDNA. It's a waste of time and effort.

All you need are RSRS or rCRS mutations to compare population's mtDNA, nothing super scientific that hurts your brain.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

The origin of the Aegean palatial civilizations from a population genetic perspective


Focusing on the Neolithic 6600-3200BCE and the Bronze Age, after 3200BCE
A place of early urbanization, palaces, coastal settlements, an exchange networks.

cultural or genetic changes?

37 sites
3 Mesolithic
23 Neolithic
11 Bronze Age
~180 individuals
~ are Bronze Age
mostly low endogenous dna <2%
mtDNA from 53 samples
9 Early Neolithic
23 Middle Neolithic
21 Bronze Age

So far, no real genetic difference between North and South Greeks
fst -.007 pvalue ~ .53?

Highest genetic differences shows between the early to late Nelithic. Mid/Late Neo to Bronze Age has a low fst

Fu FS in Bronze age is -13+, showing a population expansion.

No structure in the Bronze Age, to this point. Possibly Neo to Bronze continuity. Going to do more testing of Bronze Age Cultures and eventual shotgun testing.

I spoke with her afterwards. She said that they have yet to test the samples against the neighbors. I mentioned the possible Catacomb influence and Bulgarian V2 sample that was Yamnaya like. She said that she will look into it. The project is still in the early stages.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

sorry, number lock

about 1/2 of 180 samples are Bronze Age

Krefter said...

"So far, no real genetic difference between North and South Greeks
fst -.007 pvalue ~ .53?"

Is this suppose to modern or ancient Greeks? Did they discuss anything the relation of ancients to moderns? If they didn't that's a huge disappoint, because isn't this all about modern origins?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Bronze Age... they're just starting to test the samples. Be patient. We might not see it until the fall or winter.

Krefter said...

Thanks alot for the detailed summaries Chad!!

Mike Thomas said...

Excellent work Chad
Where exactly are these samples from ?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

I could give an idea with a map. She flipped through it quick. I plan on getting in touch with her. I can ask for more details.

Mike Thomas said...

And what was their definition / chronologu of bronze age ? Do the "bronze age " samples extend down to mid Bronze Age , ie Mycenaean propper period ?

Mike Thomas said...

Re location ; I meant roughly - not specific sites
Ie Peloponnesus ? Mainland Greece around Athens or Boittea? Cycladic islands ?

Romulus said...

did they say anything about y dna for the greek samples?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

No y data. ADNA is coming later.
I saw mainland, maybe two spots, thrace? And Sparta? Cycladic and Minoan.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Let me ask her and I'll let everyone know

Davidski said...

So Chad, just to make sure I understand, the mtDNA data suggest discontinuity between the early Neolithic and late Neolithic in Greece, continuity between the late Neolithic and Bronze Age, and also continuity between the three Bronze Age groups tested: Helladic, Cycladic, Minoan.

We already have mtDNA from Minoans, which looks very modern:

So it seems that to differentiate these Bronze Age groups we'll need Y-DNA and genome-wide data. No surprise really. Let's hope they manage to get that.

The abstract mentions inference traits from NGS data. Did she report anything like the frequencies of the LTC-13910T allele or the usual pigmentation alleles?

By the way, there's an interesting poster presentation on the Mycenaeans tomorrow. But it's about their teeth, not DNA.

Also, if you can make it to these two talks that'd be great...

Mike Thomas said...

Thanks Chad. Yep, when you get a chance, clarify the localities and the time frame of what they mean by "Bronze Age' and whether this includes actual Mycenean samples

Chad Rohlfsen said...


Yes, highest difference is between Early and Late Neolithic. It looks like a continuity in the Bronze Age, with respect to mtDNA. There was no information on LP alleles, or anything else.

The Catacomb deal seemed foreign to her. She may not know that hypothesized connection. I will touch base with her again. Can you send me the K8 and K6 results for V2, to share with her? I may need to nudge her in that direction of testing.

I can see about going to something tomorrow. I made some promises to the family. What time are those two talks, and which room?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Nevermind, I have a program here. That first one, looks like a no-go. I promised the old lady some sushi for lunch. I'll see about the second one, and looking for some posters or presenters to ask questions.

Davidski said...

Here are the K8 results for the V2 Bulgarian genome.

ANE 28.95
South_Eurasian 1.88
ENF 29.52
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 39.65
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

Looks basically Yamnaya with some extra ENF. But keep in mind that the run was only based on a few hundred SNPs. I couldn't run this sample with the K6 because there wasn't enough markers.

Davidski said...

Actually, all of the talks I just posted are poster presentations, so the posters should be up all day.

Roy King said...

The Late Neolithic of Greece is 5300 to 4500 BCE and the Final Neolithic is 4500 to 3100 BCE. What is new about the Late Neolithic in Greece is the appearance of black burnished pottery very similar to Vinca pottery of the Balkans and pottery from Anatolia at the same time. The mtDNA results suggest a migration from Anatolia to Greece displacing the Early Neolithic of Thessaly/Peloponnese. The earliest immigration of Greek speakers/IE languages is not before the Early Bronze Age (EHIII0 circa 2000 BCE. It is possible that the pre-Greek suffixes (-ss- and -nth-) might correlate with this much earlier shift in aDNA of Greece, since such toponyms are found in Greece/Crete/Western Anatolia/Cyprus. Perhaps J2a arrives in Greece (particularly J2a4b-M67) in the Late Neolithic, but R1b and R1a are much to young to reflect this shift in aDNA of Greece.

Mike Thomas said...

@ Roy

"The earliest immigration of Greek speakers/IE languages is not before the Early Bronze Age (EHIII0 circa 2000 BCE)"

im not sure how you derived at that conclusion , Roy? If sbything, 1800 BC is an absolute terminus post quem for "arrival of proto-Greeks"

@ Davidski/ Chad

The break from early neolithic to middle neolithic points to Balkan - west Anatolian influences . Whilst one must always be cautious on inferential statements made in the basis of pots, etc; it wouldn't surprise me given then "dominance " of the mid-late Neolithic in the balkan heartland c.f, the Aegean south

Nirjhar007 said...

Thats ridiculous Greek were at least there from ~2500 BC

Mike Thomas said...

Whenever you can, can you please run your K15s on the 4 ancient Thracian samples ?

(I know they're not optimal coverage) but nevertheless I'm curious

Simon_W said...

From what I've read there appears to have been a population shift in Greece around 2200 BC, that is between the second and the third phase of the early Bronze Age. Possibly it was caused by people from northern Anatolia. This resulted in the abrupt demise of the thriving cultures of the Early Helladic and the Early Cycladic, leaving only Crete untouched, where in the ensuing middle Bronze Age the Minoan palatial culture arose. If the Greeks were really from West Asia, this was the most likely time of their arrival. 2200 BC was also the time when Troy II was destroyed. As Nic Fields put it: "The layer of destruction that represents the end of Troy IIg is on average 1 m thick and bears all the hallmarks of a deliberate holocaust."

Dienekes' rolloff analysis of Greeks as Sardinians + Brahui indicate a mixture date of 1850 BC, which is quite compatible with the above events.

I just fear that the samples analysed by Unterländer et al. all predate these events. But it will still be interesting to see how much steppe admixture there was and what that change between middle and late Neolithic was like. My guess is that it resulted in more basal ancestry.

Nirjhar007 said...

Simon, The 4.2 kilo year Event seems to be created major population impact around the globe, though i'm skeptical on Greece.

Mike Thomas said...

@ Simon

Im not sure if they got samples from later on in the Bronze Age .

The crucial period for the Mycenaeans is 22-1600 BC

Krefter said...

The 4,000YBP Bronze age Pole's exhibit is going to be open in a museum in Poland soon("In April") and we should hear some genetic info about them him and the others they analysed.

Anyone wanna make guesses on his Y DNA? My guess, and probably everyone elses, is R1a-Z283.

Here are the mtDNA results from the site he came from(posted by a user a Anthrogencia).

U5b1, H1b, H2a, H1b, H1a, H2a, H6.

The H clades are screaming Steppe.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Okay, I hit a few things and even got a handout on the Neolithic skulls. If I can't find the time now, I'll post it after dinner. Maybe, 3 hours.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Okay, I'll do the Neolithic quickly.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Skull change was to a rounder and wider vault, also mandible changes. There were no changes to the face, so it's very unlikely to be about mastication.

Other factors need to be considered. Inbreeding, high endogamy, response to nutrient intake, etc.

Changes largest in Ukrainian samples.

High variability in Neolithic shapes.

Gaspar said...


My guess for the 4000y Pole

I2-M423 ( L621)

Mike Thomas said...

@ Krefter
Either R1-z283 or I2-L621

Mike Thomas said...

@ Krefter
"The H clades are screaming Steppe."

Wasn't H found plentifully in TRB culture samples recently ?

Davidski said...

The H subclades from the Bronze Age Polish site look like later arrivals from Yamnaya.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

US cranial variation

Of the Wilks that are significant, male vault dimensions for subregion born yield the lowest value (0.824), females of the same are lower, not quite significantly.

Using superimposition of canonical axes from ethnic proportions and cranial vault variables converted to unit size and rotated to maximum congruence.

Two set points for Mid-Atlantic, New England, pacific, mountain, east south central, west south central, and south Atlantic are all fairly close. Major disagreement is west north central, or upper Midwest.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

I'm vaca'd out. Heading home tomorrow. I hope that this was informative for you all. I'm working on contacting Martina Unterlander. I haven't found any contact info for her. I'll keep looking.

Nirjhar007 said...

David, I have a question to ask you Regarding Narva Culture and its Identity, people say They Were Finno-Ugric Hunting-Gathering people, do you think they could also have R1a-R1b By any chance?

Davidski said...

The most common Y-haplogroups within the Narva Culture might have been I2, N1c1 and R1a (xM417).

R1a (M417) arrived in this region with the Indo-Europeans, probably with the Corded Ware/Battle Axe Culture.

I don't think there was much R1b here ever. In the Baltic states most of it comes from German, Polish and Scandinavian settlers.

Nirjhar007 said...

Thx Profs:).

Chad Rohlfsen said...

She got back to me.

All the samples are dating to the Early Bronze Age (3200-2000 BC) except for two samples from Tiryns dating to the Late Bronze Age.
About half of the samples were from archaeological sites located in Northern Greece, five from the Cycladic islands and the rest from sites near Athens.

Alberto said...


Thanks for all your reports. Much appreciated.

So for what I understand from this talk about Greece, the project is still in it's first stages, and it was more to present what they are doing than to show the final results. However, they did give some early results based on mtDNA.

Is that informative enough to make any predictions?

If they said that the biggest difference was between early and late Neolithic, and then from LN to BA there is continuity (till 2000 BC + 2 other later samples that they analysed), what should this mean?

Could it mean a migration from a non-EEF-like population in the 4000-3500 BC time frame? Did they mention any haplogroup like W or H6?

Or is just intra-European movements? (And in this case, a late arrival of ANE-rich populations after 2000 BC?)

Chad Rohlfsen said...

There was no mention of Haplogroups. I wouldn't expect anything before the summer.

Matt said...

Chad, just chiming in to say thanks for this. No luck with the "No Longer the 1%" poster?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Thanks again, to anyone that helped me out with costs. It is greatly appreciated, especially since I incurred a $380 car repair while there.