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Tuesday, March 14, 2017

Epic fail


This is the somewhat dubious conclusion from a new paper by Balanovsky et al. at Human Genetics dealing with, amongst other things, Y-chromosomes of the Early Bronze Age Yamnaya people:

The currently available dataset does not contradict the hypothesis that R-GG400 marks a link between the East European steppe dwellers and West Asians, though the route and even direction of this migration is disputable. It does, however, demonstrate that present-day West European R1b chromosomes do not originate from the Yamnaya populations analyzed in (Haak et al. 2015; Mathieson et al. 2015) and raises the question of their origin. A Bronze Age origin is more likely than a Neolithic one (Balaresque et al. 2010), but further ancient DNA studies may be necessary to identify this source.

More to the point, the authors are trying to argue the following two rather far-fetched and tenuous positions:

- R1b-GG400, the most common Y-haplogroup in Yamnaya samples sequenced to date, moved into Eastern Europe from West Asia, and therefore the Indo-European homeland was in West Asia

- there was no massive Kurgan expansion deep into Europe from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, because the most common type of R1b in much of Europe is R1b-L51 and not R1b-GG400.

What they're ignoring is that a wide range of European Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic foragers, mostly from Eastern Europe, belong to R1b, including R1b-P297, the ancestral lineage to both R1b-GG400 and R1b-L51 (see here and here). On the other hand, not a single West Asian forager or even Neolithic farmer as yet belongs to R1b (see here).

Hence, even though it's still possible that R1b-GG400 moved into Eastern Europe from West Asia, it's no longer a parsimonious or convincing theory because it's contradicted by direct evidence from currently available ancient DNA.

The authors are also ignoring very solid evidence from genome-wide data that Yamnaya, or closely related populations from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, contributed in a big way to the ethnogenesis of modern-day Europeans. Considering that R1b-L51 is a sister clade of R1b-GG400, it's only logical to think that it could have been one of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this event.

The paper has some nice data and maps, but it's an epic fail as a whole, because it's basically an exercise in confirmation bias.

Citation...

Balanovsky, O., Chukhryaeva, M., Zaporozhchenko, V. et al., Genetic differentiation between upland and lowland populations shapes the Y-chromosomal landscape of West Asia, Hum Genet (2017). doi:10.1007/s00439-017-1770-2

117 comments:

Kjontendor001 said...

Why would a team of Russians be biased against a steppe homeland ?

Davidski said...

Well either they're biased or they're a bunch of morons.

Take your pick, but it has to be one of those two options, because it's all there in black and white.

Kjontendor001 said...

Or maybi they've got especial ex-KGB spy moves and know result already ?

Gioiello said...

@ Folker @ Nirjhar007 @ Davidski
"do not originate from the Yamnaya populations analyzed in (Haak et al. 2015; Mathieson et al. 2015)"
Except if you poslate that all Yamnaya were identical to the ones analyzed in 2015 (which it's obviously not the case), your point doesn't stand.

Nirjhar007, but does it seems to me that there is someone who is saying that from ten years or am I wrong?
Folker, read all my more than 10000 letters and you'll know what was in Samara and what not of R-L23, and what survives now of that and what not.
Davidski, of course you are right in saying that R1b didn't come from Middle East, because no old R1b has been found there, but prove to think that it came from West, Western Europe. Italy has Villabruna 14000 years ago, long before Yamnaya and Eastern Europe, and R1b was clearly one of the hgs of the WHG...

P.S. Unfortunately the paper isn't for free, but if you send me the hpts, I may understand everything about them...

Aram said...

What we have learn from recent years is that ancient DNA is the king.
Without any real aDNA R1b-M269 from West Asia all this effort is will not be game changer.

Gioiello said...

Got supplements. They are wrong in saying that the SNP is Z2130, it is Z2103, and the first haplotypes from Armenia are all R-L277...
@ Aram
Western Europe has already had an R-M269 in aDNA in Iberia.

Aram said...

Gioiello

Nope
Isogg has changed the name of V88
https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
R1b1a2-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1a2 and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages.

Gökhan said...

Yes thats true that it wasnt found any R1b-L51 in Yamnaya or ancient Anatolians yet. It does not disprove or prove anything except Yamnaya could be a source populations on R1b in Transcaucaus which they share common terminal SNP Z2103. Source population for european R1b should be searched in somewhere in steppe or eastern europe (may be in Iran) but not in Yamnaya.

On the other hand paper gives us very brief information about haplogroup frequencies among Transcaucaus populations which have also language diversity. 41,7 % L1b among Laz, 42%G1a among Hemshin armenian diaspora in Krasnador, %65 J2a among eastern Georgians are crazy frequencies. What we know L1b is very common haplogroup among all pontic populations like Pontic Greeks, Lazs, Pontic Turks and Hemshin Armenians (who lives in current NE-Turkey)

J2a among Eastern Georgians have Z6049 which also CHG Kotias' within same haplogrup. There are also remarkable frequency of M67 there.

Davidski said...

Source population for european R1b should be searched in somewhere in steppe or eastern europe (may be in Iran) but not in Yamnaya.

Bell Beakers who lived just after Yamnaya in Central Europe are 50% Yamnaya and belong to R1b-L51.

So why not Yamnaya?

Gökhan said...

"So Why Not Yamnaya"

because the same reason why not in anatolia. Because L51 have not been found there yet.

Gioiello said...

@ Aram

"Gioiello

Nope
Isogg has changed the name of V88
https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
R1b1a2-V88 are found most frequently in SW Asia and Africa. The African examples are almost entirely within R1b1a2 and are associated with the spread of Chadic languages".

Ridiculous. African and Middle Easterner R-V88 are all recent, not more than 5000 years. The oldest haplotypes are all in Italy and Western Europe:
The only reliable trees are that of YFull, but with less samples tested, and above all that of Sergey Malyshev (smal) in the R-M343 (xP312 x U106) Ftdna project.
I'll publish the tree above from YFull with the surnames:
R-V88 from Italy: definitely demonstrated
R-V88 Z30230/Y7770 * V88/PF6279 * PF6332+59 SNPs15400 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 13400 10200 ybp" class="age"formed 17100 ybp, TMRCA 11700 ybp
R-V88*
⦁ id:YF07201 [Sexton and Marchesi]
R-M18 PF6372 * PF6319 * YP5453+34 SNPs
⦁ id:ERS256975ITA [IT-CA]
⦁ id:ERS256965ITA [IT-CA]
R-Y7777 SK2065/FGC21014/Y7777 * Y7768 * FGC21018/Y8460+10 SNPs10200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 11000 8200 ybp" class="age"formed 11700 ybp, TMRCA 9600 ybp
R-Y7777*
⦁ id:YF07902 Layton [and Malugani and Racine]
R-Y8451 FGC20993/Y7786 * FGC21063/Y7784 * FGC21033/Y8445+15 SNPs8200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 8900 6400 ybp" class="age"formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 7600 ybp
R-Y8451*
R-V35 V35
⦁ id:ERS256961ITA [IT-CA]
The R-V88 in Iberia (7100 YBP: AGP3) very likely with the migration from Italy Zilhao spoke about.
Spain Els Trocs [I0410 / Troc 3] M 5295-5066 calBCE (6217±25 BP) 528,396 R1b1a2 M415+, M343+, [L754 equivalent: L774/PF6245/YSC277+, PF1144+, V88 eqivalent: PF6376+], M478-, PF6399-, L265-, L150-, M269-, V35-, V69- T2c1d or T2c1d2 Haak 2015; personal comm Sergey Malyshev, review of Y-DNA raw data; Mathieson 2015; Lazaridis 2016; Lipson 2017
You can see that Italians are in all the oldest subclades, long before that some African or Middle Easterner subclades are witnessed.

Samuel Andrews said...

I continue to be surprised by the logic used by some of the academics who write DNA papers. Their logic isn't the same as normal people, they have their own type of logic which can prevent bias but can also increase the chances of making plain stupid overconfident conclusions.

This is how their logic works...
The only entities in my the topic I'm studying I'll consider are entities considered to exist by previous academics. Discussion in my paper will revolve around those entities.
I'm open to the existence of any other entities. My topic isn't well known and therefore any possibility is possible.
I won't agree with a hypothesis which is based on flimsy incomplete data and especially one which hasn't been supported by a lot previous academic work.

This is how normal people's logic works...
I usually only believes entities which I want to be as true.
All aspects of my topic has to be consistent with the entities I believed were true before I started studying my topic.
I'll believe a hypothesis is true if it's based on flimsy incomplete data because if that flimsy incomplete data were true than that'd be overwhelming evidence that hypothesis is true.

Here are examples of how each different type of logic has been used in genetics...

Topic: Basque genetics...
Academics
Because previous academics viewed Basque people as the most pure Paleolithic Europeans, so they treat the weakest evidence for that hypothesis as good evidence. They ignore ancient DNA proving this isn't correct, they don't even discuss those papers in their papers.

Normal people
If not for ancient DNA they'd assume academics are correct unless the idea Basque are Paleolithic relics is contrast to a believe they previously held or ethnic esteem. But if even flimsy incomplete ancient DNA is available they conclude Basque aren't Paleolithic relics.

Topic: The origin of Yamnaya R1b.
Academics
To them the only available data is; Yamnaya R1b, Yamnaya genomes, modern human R1b. They don't acknowledge flimsy incomplete Y DNA data from pre-Yamnaya Europe and West Asia. Ok so they examine the only legitimate data according to their minds and see that Yamnaya had the same R1b as West Asians and West Asian ancestry, therefore to them the only logical conclusion is Yamnaya's R1b is from West Asia.

Normal People
To them the available data is; Yamnaya R1b, modern human R1b, all ancient East European R1b and R1a, flimsy incomplete genomic and mtDNA evidence of Steppe ancestry in West Asia. Because normal people consider flimsy incomplete data they can see use data which genius academics can't. With that flimsy incomplete data they are able to make a hypothesis which is definitly correct if their flimsy incomplete data is proven to be legitimate in the future.

Topic: Origins of Western European R1b...
Academics
To them the only available data is modern Western European R1b and Yamnya R1b. The two are differnt, therefore to them Western European R1b isn't from Yamnaya.

Normal people.
To them; Western European R1b, Yamnaya R1b, genomic prove of Steppe ancestry in Western Europe, the possibility Western Yamnaya had the same R1b as modern Western Europe, is all data to use when forming a hypothesis. Therefore to them it's obvious Western European R1b is from Yamnaya or at least the Steppe.

Davidski said...

@Gokhan

because the same reason why not in anatolia. Because L51 have not been found there yet.

Anatolia is not the same as Yamnaya, because R1b and R1b-M269 have been found in Yamnaya, and Yamnaya ancestry is obvious in L51 Bell Beakers.

So Anatolia is about as likely as Iran, and much less likely than Yamnaya.

Gioiello said...

@ Samuel Andrews
"Normal people.
To them; Western European R1b, Yamnaya R1b, genomic prove of Steppe ancestry in Western Europe, the possibility Western Yamnaya had the same R1b as modern Western Europe, is all data to use when forming a hypothesis. Therefore to them it's obvious Western European R1b is from Yamnaya or at least the Steppe".

Look at my post above about R-V88. Science is made with proofs (mine are proofs) and not from analogies. You are at the level of magic. You have a long road to run in the scientific field...

@ Davidski
"and Yamnaya ancestry is obvious in L51 Bell Beakers".

Also this is magic, and not proof.

Davidski said...

No, it's a fact. It makes no difference whether you choose to acknowledge it.

MfA said...

2 samples from Krasnodar and Adygei ARM-178, ARM-086 are E-FGC18401+.

Gioiello said...

And samples also in Sardinia:

E-FGC18401 FGC18401 * FGC18413 * FGC18391+19 SNPs formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp
E-FGC18401*
id:YF08862new
id:YF01962
E-Z36154 Z36154 * Z36155 * Z36156+10 SNPs
id:ERS256022ITA [IT-CA]
id:ERS256023ITA [IT-CA]

Gioiello said...

We'll see where they came from firstly, but amongst all the R-L23-Z2103, above all L277 and L584, there are also 4 samples, 3 of them are R-M269, perhapos linked to the Laz R-M269-PF7562+ and PF7563-, and all they may have come from Sardinia, being R-M269-PF7563 above all in Sardinia and Italy. Wer'll see. I study all the question by a scientific point of view and I don't practice magical arts.

MfA said...

@Gioiello

See my preliminary NGS tree of FGC18401.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r2nbGXpVFnNE1URm83RkNVNDg/view?usp=sharing

Unfortunately there's no data on Sardinian haplotypes. Can you by any chance access the supplemantary data of this study? We might find the Sardinian clade (Z36154) STR haplotypes.
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(16)30242-3/abstract

Chad Rohlfsen said...

R1b didn't expand from Italy. Italy has no connection to Ukrainian Epigravettian, which is older, and it sure as hell has no connection to the shoulder-backed tip hunters, who are the ones coming up R1. The most parsimonious explanation for Villabruna is Danubian Epigravettian, which is shoulder-back admixed. There's no migration from Italy to the Baltic and steppes. Anyone with even half a clue about archaeology knows that.... Genetic sink, not a source.

Nirjhar007 said...

Why would a team of Russians be biased against a steppe homeland ?

Not all of them are frozen head .

Nirjhar007, but does it seems to me that there is someone who is saying that from ten years or am I wrong?

Yeah you maybe right , uh I will have no problems on that :) .

Genetic sink, not a source.

I don't know about Archaeology in this case, but Italy has the highest variance of R1b clades and also the Oldest R1b to date . It doesn't exactly hint on a shallow presence there .

Nirjhar007 said...

@Nirjhar007
And now it will happen 2 things - or that paper is completely ignored (like those showing highest variance on R1b in eastern Anatolia ) or a flood of comments "proving" that this publishing scientist are just incompetent and idiots, in opposing to the "other" publishing scientist that are often cited and are just brilliant and do no foul.


The main thing is that not all scientists are stupid , they do have common sense and don't want to make any pre-mature suggestions yet .

Davidski said...

But these scientists are ignoring data, and also in fact the academic consensus that there were massive expansions from the Eastern European Steppe all the way to the Atlantic, and making the wrong conclusions.

Why are they ignoring this data and consensus? Are they dishonest or inept? Any other ideas?

Davidski said...

Well, it's not really a 'fact' unless there is data to back it up.

It is a fact that Bell Beakers have very specific ancestry that can be traced back to Yamnaya or a very similar population from the steppe. There is data to back this up.

Gioiello said...

@ Chad @ Davidski

I didn't say that R1b migrated from Italy to Samara, but that R1b1 (L389, V88, M335) expanded from the Italian Refugium after the Younger Dryas. We find these subclades in Africa and Middle East (R-V88), in the Isles (L389) and in central Europe (M335), thus R-L23* may have expanded from everywhere in Western Europe (or Central or Balkans, etc.)
In these samples from Balanowski 2017 we have, it seems, an R-L23 (xZ2103). It is interesting... We have to study that.

Ir Pegasus said...

Pre-Yamnaya R1b1
Bla16 I1593 3 3958-3344 calBCE [3512-3344 calBCE (4615±30, KIA-28845, Bla16); 3958-3773 calBCE (5055±35, KIA-37508, Bla27)] Blatterhohle_MN Blatterhole Cave Germany 51,358333 7,551111 M U5b2a2 R1b1

Gioiello said...

@ MfA
"@Gioiello

See my preliminary NGS tree of FGC18401.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r2nbGXpVFnNE1URm83RkNVNDg/view?usp=sharing

Unfortunately there's no data on Sardinian haplotypes. Can you by any chance access the supplemantary data of this study? We might find the Sardinian clade (Z36154) STR haplotypes.
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(16)30242-3/abstract"

Of course I have the paper of Francalacci, it is for free, but no STR. If some sample is in the YFull tree, we could extract some STRs, but of course the administrators of the groups, linked to FTDNA, don't give access to me. I could find in other places, like YHRD, as I did in the past, but not now. Unfortunately the paper you quoted isn't for free.

Gioiello said...

@ MfA

On the top of your tree you could put also this sample from Sardinia:
E-Y5435 FGC18353 * FGC18364/Y5435 * FGC18352formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 7100 ybp
E-Y5435*
id:ERS256021ITA [IT-CA]
This subclade may be in Italy from so long, and all the subclades expanded from there.

Aram said...

Gioiello

I was citing ISOGG page about V88. So Your complaints address to them not to me. :)


Concerning Hamshen Armenian G1. Their G1 cluster is 1200 year old. They all descend from one man who lived 1200 years ago and this man was from Amatuni noble family most probably.

Laz, Pontic Greeks and Turks and Hamshens L1b is mostly a 3000 year old cluster. Most probably it is the legacy of Pontic Chaldes attested there in many sources.

a said...

With the advent of the internet, and tools released by kind professional scientists, one can do their own research. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.


A relatively small section of the Volga and it's left tributary the Sok river,[180km+/-,spanning 7.5K YBP+/- to 4.5KYBP+/-] have the following Yamnaya HG R1b samples
HG-I0124 M73+Y13872
Yamnaya-I0439-M269+
Yamnaya-I0443-L23+[confirmed L51- and Z2105-]
Yamnaya-Z2106+-
It did not have Z2106+ found in Rise 547 and Rise 555[Kalmykia and Stalingrad]
Yamnaya-Z2109+ many examples.

It did not have Z2106+ found in Rise 547 and Rise 555[Kalmykia and Stalingrad]

Do any ancient or current day examples, listed above exist in such a cluster anywhere in Asia minor, including Armenia?

To date only one R1b sample has been found in Asia Minor-×
F38, Hasanlu IVb, 971-832 BC>downstream from Sardinian R1b in same clade.

Kristiina said...

MfA, I may be able to help you if you activate your Anthrogenica account.

AWood said...

You folks realize R1b-M269+L23+ males from the Samara river are closer to western Euro R1b than the dead lineages of R1b-M269- in central Europe don't you? You can only follow the data, not make bold assumptions.

Gioiello said...

AWood "You folks realize R1b-M269+L23+ males from the Samara river are closer to western Euro R1b than the dead lineages of R1b-M269- in central Europe don't you? You can only follow the data, not make bold assumptions".

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahhhhh

Perhaps a few (beyond me of course) have understood the paper. I think you should mind who is the sponsor (National Geographic) and who is the sponsor of the sponsor. Perhaps someone read some posts of mine when I wrote that the first purpose of these papers was to demonstrate that Phoenicians still exist in the Mediterranean, also after that Carthage lost against Rome. Of course the first assumption was that R1b came from Middle East ( the famous Ex Oriente Lux), the Vizachero's tree that someone remembers on the FTDNA project, now replaced from the more reliable tree of smal. Failed this assumption, we had plenty of papers which demonstrated that R1b came from Caucasus, but that it migrated up there from Lebanon. When the Levantinists became Kurganists, it seemed that this assumption were demonstrated, but it failed (at least for people ready to understand). This paper demonstrates that, but not for saying that R-L51 is autochthonous of Western Europe, but for searching its origin somewhere, perhaps in Middle East, in spite that no R1b has been found in the aDNA.

AWood, are you aware of all that?

Taymas said...

I am fascinated by the ancient Armenia results thus far. Davidski has discussed how EBA -> MLBA shift is toward a Baltic-like pop. Interesting that Laziridis 2016 had CHL modeling better with Iran_N than CHG. They modeled EBA without CHL as a potential source, so hard to make much of it. Anyone have a good handle on this? Thanks.

Taymas said...

Speaking of Laziridis, apropos to Davidski's commentary about South Asians favoring Ulan over Andronovo, I see Table S9.4 showing South Asians favoring Steppe_Eneolithic over EHG or Steppe_EMBA when modeled with Iran_LN/Onge/Han. Steppe proportions seem pretty reasonable in their model, too.

John Smith said...

The Yamnava were dominated by R1b-GG400 and had little R1b-L51 despite poor automatism evidence suggesting otherwise ancient dna from two sites proves this. In addition modern R1b-GG400 is found in Near East and SE Europe. This means that in SE Europe R1b-GG400 most likely the R1b-GG400 comes from western Yamna and the R1b-GG400 in Near East comes from Eastern Yamna other types of R1 probably come from a further north population which pushed the Yamna with R1b-GG400 south. Maybe ancient dna evidence will disprove this but it seems to be a pretty solid theory for now no way that R1b-gg400 in SE Europe comes from near East.The steppe theory still is most likely although it comes from populations Further North of the Yamna and is probably older. The Yamna appear to be a dead end.

John Smith said...

populations*

Karl_K said...

@John Smith

Roger Maris *

truth said...

Y'all folks need to look at autosomal instead of ya'll looking at them subclades n sheeit.
How come they ain't not steppe in iberians until the Late Bronze Age, which is when R1b folks start kickin' in. It ain't no coincidence.

AWood said...

@Gioiello

Who said Middle East? You seem to be the only one who is obsessed with this and keeps bringing it up.

The only thing that needs to be determined is this: Was L51+ guy a local central European forager, or was he from the steppes on the western edge of Yamnaya? The evidence points to the latter since Villanbruna is far too old to be relevant, and the more recent foragers in central Europea have been R1b-M269-.

Gioiello said...

@ AWood

Bell Beakers in Southern Germany were all downstream R-L11 and I (and Genetiker) think that an R-M269+ (at least with two SNPs at that level)was in Iberia more than 5000 year ago. Anyway we all are waiting that BB aDNA is published, and much more.

Gioiello said...

Very likely this sample is an R1b1-L389+ with YCAII=23-23, the Caucasian one:

A-Adygei R1b* M343(xM269)
13 16 24 15 15 12 13 14 14 11 17 12 11 13 13 12 26 ALL ARM-076
FTDNA Format
13 24 15 11 12-13 xx xx 12 13 13 29 14 x-xx xx xx xx 14 17 xx xx-xx-xx-xx xx 12 xx-xx 15
xx xx xx xx-xx xx 11
DYS635=26

capra internetensis said...

@Gioiello

Yeah, it looks like L389*. The M269(xL23) has DYS393=13 whic seems unusual for PF7562 judging by what's in the R1b Basal Subclades Project. The L23(xZ2103) is not tested for L51 and as far as I can tell looks like L11 except for having YGATAH4=13. But I'm not a STR guy, what's your call?

AWood said...

@Gioello

You need all the SNPs positive at the M269+ level in Iberia or it's not relevant for L23+, let alone L51+. These are dead lineages that are not linked to the P312/U106 expansions.

Ric Hern said...

I would say the Ancestors of Yamnaya gave rise to many different populations that shows close resemblance to Yamnaya but they were not Yamnaya. Yamnaya (DNA)likeness could have been spread much wider than the actual Culture...?

Davidski said...

I would say the Ancestors of Yamnaya gave rise to many different populations that shows close resemblance to Yamnaya but they were not Yamnaya. Yamnaya (DNA)likeness could have been spread much wider than the actual Culture...?

Yamnaya-like populations appear to have been adapted and limited to the Western Steppe environment until the Afanasievo and Corded Ware migrations.

There's no evidence or suggestion of the typical Yamnaya genetic profile being found outside the Western Steppe until the LNBA.

Also, what many people don't understand is that there were at least nine different Yamnaya groups spread from the Balkans to the Urals. They may have carried all sorts R subclades that haven't been sampled yet on the steppe, but probably will be soon.

a said...

Of course DYS-393[0.00076] is a slower mutation rate than YCA-II [0.00123]but we can overlook such small differences.
The real question comes into play. When comparing the data set of STR and SNP samples of 1525 samples from
"Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region," and its conclusions-versus this study.
Knowing the Georgian also is confirmed M343?
What became of the 2)Ossetian-Digor and Ossetian Iron samples M343(M269)?
What became of the 3) Circassian M343(M269)?
What became of the Ossetian R1b cluster @ 16%?
What became of the Lezghins R1b cluster @ 30%?
How were these samples factored into the above authors conclusions, when comparing Yamnaya samples and Asia minor,and Armenian samples?

Ric Hern said...

Was the Samara Eneolithic already Yamnaya ? Some DNA samples predate the Yamnaya Cultural phenomenon.

We still have Cultures stretching over much the same area as Yamnaya like Khvalynsk. And there could be an even bigger Cultural and Genetic connection area that encompassed Samara and Dnieper-Donets territories. The same amount of CHG was found in some Samara Eneolithic samples as was in Yamnaya. Yamnaya.

What will the answer be to resolve this question ? Push back the date of Yamnaya formation to 6000 bC.?

Davidski said...

Yamnaya and early Baltic Corded Ware genomes are very similar and homogeneous.

Samara Eneolithic/Khvalynsk doesn't yet appear to be of that type, even though some outliers almost resembled Yamnaya.

Simon_W said...

I wonder why this red herring of alleged R1b-M269 in ATP3 is continued to be perpetuated. I mean it's really not hard to grasp. You don't need a brilliant brain to understand it. R1b-M269 has 104 SNPs that are currently considered phylogenetically equivalent to M269. Afaik ATP3 has been shown to have one of them, according to Gioiello even two. But it's highly speculative and a huge leap into faith to conclude that he had all of them. Because, even if all modern R1b-M269 men always have all of these mutations, which is the reasonable assumption at the moment, it does NOT follow that all males of the distant past who happened to be positive for some of these markers were positive for all of them. Please, that's kindergarten level. Because obvisouly these 104 equivalent mutations didn't occur all at once, they accumulated slowly, across thousands of years. Now is this comprehensible? Anyone who thinks otherwise believes in magic.

John Smith said...

''Yamnaya and early Baltic Corded Ware genomes are very similar and homogeneous.'' This means they probably came from the same source (most likely) and most likely not the Corded Ware come from Yamna (less likely). Yamna remains lacked R1a so although some could have had R1a no evidence exists of this yet. The Yamna theory could be correct but what about a pre Yamna theory? What is so impossible about that?

Ric Hern said...

So did Yamnaya ancestors actually spread from Shredny Stog into Khvalynsk and Samara ?

Rob said...

@ Ric

Lol One can't just artificially add on 3000 years to a culture. If anything, its tending to push the chronology back down to 3000 BC after taking to account reservoir effects. But that's not really a problem, because Proto-Beaker package appears in Central Europe c.2800 BC.
It just hasn't been described explicitly yet and you won't know about it unless you've really dug deep

Gioiello said...

@ capra internetensis
"@Gioiello
Yeah, it looks like L389*. The M269(xL23) has DYS393=13 whic seems unusual for PF7562 judging by what's in the R1b Basal Subclades Project. The L23(xZ2103) is not tested for L51 and as far as I can tell looks like L11 except for having YGATAH4=13. But I'm not a STR guy, what's your call?"

But if this sample is R-L389+ with YCAII=23-23, is just the only one subclade present in the Caucasus, whereas Italy has all the 4 subclades known so far (those with YCAII=18-22, 18-23, 22-23,23-23 (actually 23-24)).
The L23(xZ2103) sample, if you diminish of 1 (as we have to do for comparing with the FTDNA format), is pretty in the modal of R-L23-Z2105. Difficult to say what it is, and if the test may have failed and it is an R-Z2105 it too.

@ Simon_W
"Anyone who thinks otherwise believes in magic".

1) Villabruna perhaps isn't our direct ancestor, but very likely belonged to the tribe from which our R-P297*came out.
2) Everyone has always said that R1b wasn't in the West before recent times. Having found a sample at the R-M269 level may demonstrate that many others there were. Of course we have to find them, otherwise my hypothesis is disproved.
3) Certainly Southern Germany had samples downstream R-L11. You think that they came from Yamnaya, I think that they came from West (we'll see if Iberia, Southern France, Italy, the Isles, etc ).


Ric Hern said...

Maybe those outliers became dominant in later Yamnaya. Where did those outliers originate ? Why were they probably more successful than the others with less CHG ? Was there a trade advantage because some individuals probably looked more like CHG people ?

Kenneth Lloyd Anderson said...

"Why would a team of Russians be biased against a steppe homeland?" Maybe it's the Russian Traditionalist Alexander Dugin's influence, with the myth of Hyperborian Eurasian founders coming West/South etc from Siberia, which would make the steppes a secondary homeland. Ethnic/Patriotic/religious bias can run deep. In any case, Dugin's Traditionalism does not much respect science.

Davidski said...

Increased mobility and female exogamy led to the homogenization of the Western Steppe.

a said...

Of course I stand corrected, Z2106-18249219+ has been found in Armenian as well as Sardinian. Z2106* is upstream also from Sardinian ans Italian Z2110*One just has to check smal's placement in relation to other Yamnaya samples. Maybe author of above cited work could explain Tabasarans?


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background

Chad Rohlfsen said...

@Gioiello,

There was no R1b holding out in Italy during the LGM. The whole Refugia idea is bogus anyway, as we know half of Europe was habitable and there are hunter camps to back that people were still wandering around Western and Central Europe. The other thing, is that you have to explain the M335 in C, SC, and E Asia. It's all over and didn't come from Italy. Lastly, and most crucial, is that we have Italian samples during that period. All are Gravettians. No Gravettians are Y-R, and they went extinct as a people during this period. They're a completely different people autosomally. There's not a chance in hell that it happened as you say.

Ric Hern said...

Heheheeeh. Yes I know Rob. The problem is the date of Yamnaya if we claim that they were the Origin of everything...If we say 3300 bC. then they could not be the direct source of Afanasevo who was found at 3300 bC. on the other side of Mars.The same goes for the Cernavoda Culture that hints at a very early Steppe intrusion.

So can you please provide me with a date for Yamnaya ?

capra internetensis said...

re: bias, people can be more biased toward their own pet theories than they are toward some absurd projection of nationalism back into the distant past. I guess in academia the former is more common than the latter.

@Gioiello

Right I forgot to convert the YGATAH4, thanks.

Rob said...

@ Ric:)

Current dates :
- Eneolithic/ Khvalysnk/ Sredni Stog : 4300-3800
Meshoko/ Svobodnaja
- Repin, Mikhailovka, Majkop: 3800-3000
- Yamnaya 3000-2600
- late Yamnaya/ early catacomb : 2600-2300
BCE.
- Corded Ware: A Horizon: 3000; developed CWC:2800 BC

I'm not sure about the Cernavoda culture's affiliation. It might be derived local Bulgarian/Romanian Eneolithic, under a dual influence from Baden & Steppe Eneolthics. It in turn appears to have influenced steppe Eneolithic in certain funearary rights, which diffused to Dniester steppe; and then BB East.

Ric Hern said...

Thanks Rob.

Dmytro said...

Ric Hern said...
So did Yamnaya ancestors actually spread from Shredny Stog into Khvalynsk and Samara ?
March 14, 2017 at 1:23 PM

*****N. Kotova argues this precisely. Cf. pp. 135-137 of her "Early Eneolithic in the "Pontic steppe" here: http://iananu-kiev.academia.edu/NadezhdaKotova

Early "eastern" Sredny Stog migrants assimilated groups of the Orlovka and Samara cultures and the result was Khvalinsk. Which subsequently expanded southward and reached the Caspian ca. 4900 BCE === She deals only in archaeological artefacts, but if she is right, this certainly would support the presence of R1b in the area between Dnipro and Don (the yet unanalyzed territory of the later "western Yamna"*****

Olympus Mons said...

@Simon_W,
If things are on a it follows basis, than OK.
Finding that a very low coverage sample like ATP3 having 2 SNPs of M269 is not at least a strong indication of him being fully M269 it makes sense to say something like, having less than say, 10% 20% or 30% should not allow us to call. Right. So lets see how big Jean Manco list will be then?

Does anyone knows how may samples have been called with less than 10%?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

He's not m269. Even if he were, it wouldn't mean a thing. M269 is at least 13k years old. He still doesn't have L23 and L51 level anything. He's irrelevant either way. By thousands of years.

Olympus Mons said...

@Nirjhar.
I told you. 2 options. Either ignore or attack. The latter was chosen.
There are the super uber in Reich lab...and then the incompetent everyone else. Does not matter if its Krause or Haak or Balanovsky.

Olympus Mons said...

@a,
...Maybe author of above cited work could explain Tabasarans?

What about Tabasarans?

Roy King said...

As an academic, I do love to simplify, if warranted. That said, we are all aware of the complexities and tend to prefer agnosticism to faith in pet theories or ancestral nationalist ideologies.
May I summarize the arguments of this paper?

1) L23 is the marker of importance, not M269, P297, V88 etc...to the proposition.
2) So far, in modern populations there is only 1 L23*(xZ2103,xL51) and that is an Armenian from Ezerum, Turkey. I can attest that the Underhill lab has found no L23*(xZ2103,xL51) in modern samples across Europe/Asia.
3) It seems that a vicariant biogeographical model fits L23---it bifurcates into L51 and Z2103 with its original L23* drifting to extinction except in Erzerum so far. Vicariance occurs say in two valleys of green warblers vs. yellow warblers with a long time separating the two subspecies, genetically.
4) The authors conclude that since Z2103 is the dominant Yamnaya Y lineage, Yamnaya could not have fully given rise to L51 in Western Europe.

This is an extreme simplification of the argument, I hold an agnostic view and await more aDNA samples. Anatolia HG are rather undersampled in comparison to European HG, yet we know, archaeologically, that there were many HG populations alongside the Neolithic populations of Anatolia

Olympus Mons said...

@Roy,
I, in old days (like 2015) I got fixated on M269 as cornerstone of R1b but you are right. L23 is the ones I should say.

@Aram.... wanna bet that Aratashen is going to turn out L23? I mean the Shulaveri at aratashen neighbors of this Erzurum guy with L23 that roy talks about.

Davidski said...

L23 isn't that important, by itself. What really matters is the entirety of the evidence that has accumulated in recent years, largely from ancient DNA.

Balanovsky et al. ignore this entirety of evidence, surely for no other reason than that they find it unpalatable, because they can't be so stupid as to not comprehend its significance, and this is why their paper is an epic fail.

In regards to the under sampling of Anatolian and nearby HGs: Anatolian and other Near Eastern farmers, unlike early European farmers, sprang wholly from local HG populations, and we do have a lot of their farmer descendants sampled now, with no R1b to show for it.

postneo said...

@Roy
Are there any ancient samples from Erzurum or surrounding areas in eastern turkey?

capra internetensis said...

Huh, never heard of the Turkish L23* before. There was a Komi with L23* reported in a Russian dissertation. Though in the case of rare paragroups lab error is always a possible explanation, unless it is tested for multiple SNPs or fully sequenced.

@OM

This is the same information we had in 2015. You are expecting people to change their minds because someone has belatedly published something they already knew?

Roy King said...

Here's a wild hypothesis--please don't hold me to it. L23 originates in Eastern Anatolia speaking a Kartvelian-like language. It moves into SE Europe and Yamnaya who later adopt IE languages from R1a regions. This might explain the pronomial affinities between IE and Kartvelian. With L51, the pre-Kartvelian language becomes Basque/Vasconic--both are split-ergative with typological similarities. Yamnaya, which is autosomally like Steppe populations and Corded ware convect the IE languages to Europe and later to Central and South Asia.
But this is just wild speculation. Perhaps R1a is IE, R1b Kartvelian, G2a NW Caucasian and J2a/J1 NE Caucasian/Nakh in origin.

@Davidski
I agree that Balanovski ignores unquestionably real autosomal results. But academics focus on details usually and there is the weird finding that Yamnaya is Z2103--kind of like photoelectric effect, speed of light results before Einstein. The whole edifice of physics was overthrown by these anomalies. You can only throw out a theory through contradictory evidence.

a said...

Excellent point the oldest L23*(xZ2103,xL51)has been found in Yamnaya.It's buried 118m+/- from, I0440- Poltavka, 2900-2500 BC sample[Z2103/5>Z2109>KMS75+ found in modern day speaking Turkic Bashkir's]. RR made a map 1 lone Komi sample L23*(xZ2103,xL51)?

"2) So far, in modern populations there is only 1 L23*(xZ2103,xL51) and that is an Armenian from Ezerum, Turkey. I can attest that the Underhill lab has found no L23*(xZ2103,xL51) in modern samples across Europe/Asia."

Therefore Yamnaya, Lopatino II, I0443, 3300-2700 BC-L23*(xZ2103,xL51) predates Armenian Plateau L23 sample from Erzurum, by 5000 years+/-
Maybe Trofimova et al 2015-KomiL23*(xZ2103,xL51[412] have a shot at Erzurum model;+ are a lot closer to Yamnaya Lopatino Sok river sample.
http://ibg.anrb.ru/disovet/zashita/2015/02Trofimova/2015_02_TrofimovaAvtoref.pdf

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Z2103_Yamnaya.
http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#13/53.6521/50.6594

Ariel said...

L23 is from pockets of WHG in eastern Europe, people came from the east, founder effect, then L23 start spreading west. Just like I2 and the nordic bronze age.

Ric Hern said...

Regarding the Refugia. I always wondered why the Inuit didn't move to a more favourable climate. But there they are in the middle of an Ice Desert. Surely not everyone favours a holiday in the tropics.

Gioiello said...

Of course I agree with that. I said the same before Roy King about that sample [In these samples from Balanowski 2017 we have, it seems, an R-L23 (xZ2103). It is interesting... We have to study that] and also about R-M269-PF7562+/PF7563-. Of course those samples and the places where they have been found merit to be deepen...but the proof is to find R-L51*, and from the map of Argiedude and me, Eastward Italy it is now 0,00%. We'll see if it will be found in the aDNA. We are open to the proofs that future will bring...
Anyway if mine is a pet theory or dictated from nationalism, what to say about the long rambling speech of Roy King about linguistics, and that he ignore what "a" said above: "Therefore Yamnaya, Lopatino II, I0443, 3300-2700 BC-L23*(xZ2103,xL51) predates Armenian Plateau L23 sample from Erzurum, by 5000 years+/-"
To Roy King, with his PhD in genetics, I would ask his idea about the paper of Shi Huang and colleagues against the "out of Africa" (at least about the uniparental markers) and how much he thinks to get from A00. Thanks.

Ric Hern said...

Thanks for the Link.

Slumbery said...

Ric Hern: maybe because the regions with more favorable climate have resident populations that are bigger and already more accustomed to live there.
I always imagined these LGM refugia not as people moved around looking for a suitable refugium, but as people from outside of the refugia died out and the prevailing populations where the ones that lived in the refugia from the start. The truth is probably the combination of both, but I am pretty sore the latter process had the bigger weight.

Aram said...

Roy King

You were the co-author of Cyprus Y DNA paper.
What is Your opinion why R1a was not even included in the list of potential candidates of Greek language spread in to Cyprus.
And even more striking. There was a good correlation of Greek spread with E-V13 and J2-M67 ( I guess it was J2-M92).
Coincidently the J2-M67 and E-V13 didn't show up in early Neolithic Anatolia. They start to appear later in Europe.
Any theory about that?

Aram said...

Olympus

Well we have more than 1500 people in Armenia DNA project and no single L23*.
So even if one was found then it could be very rare.

Aram said...

It seems Armenians also have their own J2 M67 cluster very different from Nakh people. Amazing. Never looked in that direction.


https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00439-017-1770-2/MediaObjects/439_2017_1770_MOESM21_ESM.tif

Gioiello do Italians have their own branches of J2 M67 or they are just an offshoot off Greek haplotypes?

Rob said...

@ Chad


"The whole Refugia idea is bogus anyway, as we know half of Europe was habitable and there are hunter camps to back that people were still wandering around Western and Central Europe"

The refuge idea isn't bogus. West Central Europe wasn't habitated between 25-18 kyBp (I mean northern France, SW Hermany, Switzerland, etc).
Temporary forays and camps accepted, settlement definitely concentrated in certain key zones

Gioiello said...


@ Aram
"Gioiello do Italians have their own branches of J2 M67 or they are just an offshoot off Greek haplotypes?"

J-M67 is full of the oldest clusters in Italy:
J-M67 Z7562/S23034/FGC3285 * CTS6372/PF5130 * Z2241/CTS5535/PF5129+10 SNPs formed 14800 ybp, TMRCA 12400 ybp
J-Y17067* id:ERS256837ITA [IT-CA]
J-Z6271* id:ERS256835ITA [IT-CA]
J-Y23522 Y23522 formed 6000 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp id:YF06467DEU [DE-MV ] id:YF03709ITA
J-L210* id:YF08968new id:NA20521TSI
etc etc
There has been a time when stupid people said that J2 in Italy came from Greece, T was Lebanese etc etc
Only stupid people who says that I am a nationalist...

Chad Rohlfsen said...

There's several Gravettian sites during that period, in that area (At least 25-22kya). I'm referring to the idea that activity is restricted to peninsular areas.

MfA said...

That guy L23(xZ2130 a typo) seems like belong to P312, where do you get he's L51-?

Gioiello said...

@ MfA


Good catch. I said that his haplotype was in the "modal". Of course if he is P312 or downstream is Z2103-... and many stupid persons are speculating about this first R-L23*... ahahahahahahahahahah

Gioiello said...

This sample may well be an R-L21 more than linked to Zebary I put on Ysearch from SMGF:
4SVT9 Armenacchi Unknown
12 24 14 11 11 14 11 13 13 29 18 15 19 12 15 12 23
J9UEJ O'Brien New York, New York, USA
12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 8 9 11 11 25 15 19 29 13 13 15 17 11 12 19 23 15 17 12 12 11 15 23 10 14 12 12 13 30 25 KXG44 Davis Wales
13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 18 8 9 11 11 25 15 19 29 13 13 15 17 11 12 19 23 15 15 18 17 36 38 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 15 30 25 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 15 10 12 12 15 8 22 21 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 9 11 15 9 16 12 11 12 13 11 10 13 12 11 11 25 24 19 12
X3HFU Zebary Iraq
12 24 14 11 11 14 11 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 15 15 17 10 11 19 23 15 13 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 28 24

Roy King said...

@MfA
You have a point that the authors never indicated he was L51-. One would think that they would have tested this sample for L51 since that is a major part of their argument and they are not at all naive. That said, the sample has dys393=12 making him unlikely to be L51+.

Gioiello said...

@ Roy King

"That said, the sample has dys393=12 making him unlikely to be L51+".

The mutation from 13 to 12 in haplotypes downstream L51, even though not frequent, is diffused in many htps, likely R-L21 and many Others.
I examined an Irish haplotype, which matched me at Y12 and I believed that he were R-L23-Z2015 and downstream like me, but he resulted R-U152, thus, without a SNP test, I think that nothing may be said or presupposed.

capra internetensis said...

Well, the paper does not mention this L23(xZ2103)sample anywhere, it speaks only of two modern branches, and it is clear from the list of SNPs tested, the tree in figure 1, and identification in Table S3 that it is not tested for L51.

It would be nice if they had tested for L51 and subclades, but I would rather they had tested for Z2106, L277, L584, etc. It is strange to sequence samples to find novel SNPs and then not test for the SNPs in your general sample. Maybe they are planning to do another paper with more detail on Z2103.

MfA said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MfA said...

@Gioiello

Zebari is a great Kurdish tribe, it's claimed their name comes from the ancient Subartu people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subartu

Gioiello said...

@ MfA
"@Gioiello Zebari is a great Kurdish tribe, it's claimed their name comes from the ancient Subartu people".

I found this haplotype on SMGF and put it on Ysearch. Fortunately, because SMGF is out now and all the data are lost. His haplotype is close to mine (R-L23-Z2110) but with DYS426=11 which is owned from the R-M269-PF7562 and with DYS452=28 instead of the modal 30. It would be interesting to know his subclade.
X3HFU Zebary Iraq
12 24 14 11 11 14 11 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 15 15 17 10 11 19 23 15 13 12 11 12 12 23 10 13 12 12 13 28 24

MfA said...

BTW there're a few P312 cases in Armenians and Kurds. So it's not far fetched. Until the authors verifies it's indeed L51- i remain sceptical.

War Lord said...

You should finally forget the silly age estimates of R1b and face the fact that this Y haplogroup is of Aurignacian origin and survived in Western Europe for 40 000 years. Future studies will confirm it. Should we bet?

War Lord said...

Btw, the R1b samples from the Volga basin (Samara) belong to local Paleolithic aborigines. We cannot extrapolate these samples to the whole Yamnaya culture, which is predominantly composed of R1a. I do hope that everybody understands it.

Grey said...

Kjontendor001 said...
"Why would a team of Russians be biased against a steppe homeland ?"

I'd imagine some people are hostile to the Aryan biker gang theory cos of how it was used in recent-ish history.

Maybe Russians in particular?

Tsotne said...

There were no snps done in this paper. they just used online predictors. As for Georgian m67 they are J-Z7671
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z7671/

The Laz percentage of L1b is also uncertain since many of haplotypes are alike and as i know they some of them were relatives.
And why would anyone associate kartvelian language to R1b when R1b is minority in Georgians and we dont even have a defined clade of our own.

Gioiello said...

@ Aram
These samples are Z2013 positive, and he is negative, thus I don't think you may be right. I have another solution: an Ossetian woman, Luba Tabulova, has some English ancestry in her autosome, and said me that there was in the Caucasus a mission of Scottish Christians who was closed from Soviet government. It is very likely that some R-L21 remained in Caucasian people of to-day. I think that that sample should be tested for R-L21. Anyway that old subclade of R-Z2103, found in Italy, is another proof for my theory.

R-Z2103 Z2103/CTS1078 * Y4371/Z8128/M12149 * S20902/Z8130+7 SNPs5500 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 6900 5300 ybp" class="age"formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
R-Z2103*
R-PF331 PF3315300 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 5800 3500 ybp" class="age"formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp
⦁ id:YF07907ITA [IT-PR]
⦁ id:YF03421

Gioiello said...

Of course Z2103

Gioiello said...

Peter Zohrab February 5 @ 3:40am
My ancestors have never been Maltese, but some passed through Malta and are buried there. http://zorabfamily.co.za/frantomb.html
N9165 Zohrab b Erevan, Armenia ca 1580 d New Julfa 1620 Armenia R-CTS4528
14 24 15 10 10-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 24 14 19 27 15-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 16 17 36-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
And perhaps we did know also why there is an R1b1a2-P311-CTS4528 in the Caucasus. Malta was plenty of "Cavalieri".

Karl_K said...

@War Lord

"Btw, the R1b samples from the Volga basin (Samara) belong to local Paleolithic aborigines. We cannot extrapolate these samples to the whole Yamnaya culture, which is predominantly composed of R1a. I do hope that everybody understands it."

Well, as everyone here besides you knows extremely well, this is not true at all. This is very very far from a true statement.

War Lord said...

"Well, as everyone here besides you knows extremely well, this is not true at all."

This suggests that you should leave this forum from time to time.

German Dziebel said...

@ Davidski

"Well either they're biased or they're a bunch of morons.

Take your pick, but it has to be one of those two options, because it's all there in black and white."

Neither. They are under a normal academic influence coming from two Russian (supported by some Western European scholars) sources: one is archaeologist Leo (Lev Samuilovich) Klein who's been criticizing the Steppe hypothesis for years on archaeological grounds, and the other one is Igor Diakonoff and others who argued for a Balkan (and then ultimately West Asian) origin of Indo-Europeans.

But I agree with you, slowly-evolving Australopolocine, that aDNA disproves all of these ideas.

Karl_K said...

@War Lord

"the whole Yamnaya culture, which is predominantly composed of R1a"

Ok. Then please point me to the papers and/or raw data to support this claim. I am very excited to see it!

capra internetensis said...

@Gioiello

There is also an Avar from the Estonian Biocentre Data who is L584-, L277-, Z2106-, and according to an old post by smal PF331+. He also mentioned a Baloch sharing this SNP. In FTDNA project we find PF331 cluster containing a man with unknown origin and a Saudi. But I understand that PF331 is recurrent, and I do not know what the latest findings are. Do you know if these are indeed all one clade?

Gioiello said...

@ capra internetensis
Of course to be PF331, i.e. one of the oldest subclades of L23 (but one amongst all the others, only a tiny one) is important but doesn't demonstrate anything. I'd say that it is surprising more having found it in Italy than in Eastern Europe or elsewhere, because we know that some old subclades are above all in East Europe and Asia than in the West (but, again, Eastern Europe and Asia lack all the rest: upstream and downstream L23). That said, it seems that the SNP is recurrent, above all in the packs of FTDNA, but in this Italian is reliable, because he is in my project at YFull and I may see his BAM file. Nothing changes about all the rest.

Aram said...

Gioiello

I noticed that I was wrong. Deleted the post.

War Lord said...

"the whole Yamnaya culture, which is predominantly composed of R1a"

Ok. Then please point me to the papers and/or raw data to support this claim. I am very excited to see it!


THE PEOPLE PICK UP SOME SAMPLES FROM THE MARGINAL REGION OF SAMARA AND YOU EXTRAPOLATE IT TO THE WHOLE YAMNAYA. DARK HAIR, DARK EYES... LOL. SO WHERE DO ALL THOSE FAIR-HAIRED, BLUE-EYED INDO-EUROPEANS IN CENTRAL ASIA COME FROM?

War Lord said...

"Considering that R1b-L51 is a sister clade of R1b-GG400, it's only logical to think that it could have been one of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this event."

Yet we have a R1b sample from Els Trocs in Spain dated to 3100 BC (Haak et al. 2015). We also have a sample of R1b from the Upper Paleolithic Italy dated to 12 000 BC (Fu et al., 2016). Dream on!

War Lord said...

"We were surprised to find haplogroup R1b in the 14,000-year-old
Villabruna individual from Italy. While the predominance of R1b in
western Europe today owes its origin to Bronze Age migrations from
the eastern European steppe9, its presence in Villabruna and in a
~7,000-year-old farmer from Iberia9 documents a deeper history of
this haplotype in more western parts of Europe."

ONLY IF PEOPLE IGNORED THE SILLY AGE ESTIMATES OF R1B. THEN THEY WOULDN'T BE "SURPRISED" ANYMORE.

Ric Hern said...

The Oldest R sofar was found within the Mal'ta Buret Culture in Southern Siberia. It was R* and was relatively close to the source in terms of age. It is not as old as the Aurignacians and was more contemporary with the later Gravettians.

No amount of Screaming will change the facts or any informed persons mind as it stands right now. So keep those nickers dry and debate the issue like an adult.

Ric Hern said...

Not all R1a people were Indo-Europeans and not all R1b people were Indo-Europeans. Even today there are R1a among Turkic speakers and R1b among Basque speakers.

Ric Hern said...

Only certain subclades of R1a and R1b are responsible for the formation of Indo-European.

xyyman said...

^hA! Ha! hA!

Villabruna came from a low latitude geographic region. Oh! wait parts of India is in the tropics...sic..wink! wink.

Villabruan, La brana, Loschbour, Neanderthal, some Africans, Melanesians ALL carry the ANCESTRAL alleles. SLC24A5, SLC45A2 and for hair texture EDAR.

No. I am not an Afrocentrist. I am a realist. I may be called a "Melanesianist". Fools!

Last I remembered Northern Europe is tropical(sic).