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Wednesday, May 10, 2017

The Bell Beaker Behemoth (Olalde et al. 2017 preprint)


Over at BioRxiv at this LINK:

Abstract: Bell Beaker pottery spread across western and central Europe beginning around 2750 BCE before disappearing between 2200-1800 BCE. The mechanism of its expansion is a topic of long-standing debate, with support for both cultural diffusion and human migration. We present new genome-wide ancient DNA data from 170 Neolithic, Copper Age and Bronze Age Europeans, including 100 Beaker-associated individuals. In contrast to the Corded Ware Complex, which has previously been identified as arriving in central Europe following migration from the east, we observe limited genetic affinity between Iberian and central European Beaker Complex-associated individuals, and thus exclude migration as a significant mechanism of spread between these two regions. However, human migration did have an important role in the further dissemination of the Beaker Complex, which we document most clearly in Britain using data from 80 newly reported individuals dating to 3900-1200 BCE. British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion. Beginning with the Beaker period, and continuing through the Bronze Age, all British individuals harboured high proportions of Steppe ancestry and were genetically closely related to Beaker-associated individuals from the Lower Rhine area. We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain's Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.

Olalde et al., The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe, bioRxiv, Posted May 9, 2017, doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135962


See also...

The genomic history of Southeastern Europe (Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint)

210 comments:

1 – 200 of 210   Newer›   Newest»
andrew said...

Last call for pre-publication predictions.

Davidski said...

Can't think right now. Need a drink.

Ric Hern said...

I2a, G2a plus maybe R1b(V88) in Spain/Portugal and Southern France. R1b L21 and DF27 in Northeastern France and the Low Countries.

Unknown said...

Sheit when I saw that, I thought it was over, that the papers were finally out but damn! We have to wait again even if it's not much.

Rob said...

Ric,
I2a S-W vs R1b N-E

Ric Hern said...

@Rob
Yes that is what I think.

Gioiello said...



@ Ric Hern
"I2a, G2a plus maybe R1b(V88) in Spain/Portugal and Southern France. R1b L21 and DF27 in Northeastern France and the Low Countries".

And Italy? R-V88 in Iberia is important, but where did come from the R1b in France? Of course you know I know...

Gioiello said...

@ Rob
"Ric,
I2a S-W vs R1b N-E"

North-East of France, not of Europe. I think that your defeat will be astonishingly...

Folker said...

I think that R1b P312 (and L21) is obvious for "Northern BBs".

Southern BBs were probably more diverse, I2a in Iberia, perhaps some G2a as well especially in Southern France.

But this wait is killing me!

Rob said...

Gio
Defeat of what ? Napoleon ?

Ric Hern said...

@Gioiello

They came from Sredny Stog...

Colin Welling said...

Im going to guess that the eastern bell beakers were very similar to the western yamnaya. So rather than western yamnaya mixing heavily with central europeans to produce eastern bell beakers im going to guess that western yamnaya were already similar to the eventual eastern bell beakers. Obviously I think the Western yamnaya had a lot more EEF than the eastern/central yamnaya.

Nirjhar007 said...

I expect lots of L51.

Gioiello said...

@ Ric Hern said...
"@Gioiello
They came from Sredny Stog..."

Truly? I didn't know that R-L51 had been found in Sredny Stog. Oh when?

Nirjhar007 said...

An integration of CWC and BB tribes and westward movement .

Yamnaya may have L51 , not sure about M-417 .

Gioiello said...

@ Rob

"Gio
Defeat of what ? Napoleon? "

Don't forget that Napoleon was a Tuscan like me, and we'll know also where his hg. E came from, but he did the same mistake of another: to go against our Russian Mother!

Ric Hern said...

@Gioiello

Well andrew asked for a prediction and that is mine.

Rob said...

Bowscombe bowman I2a

Arza said...

On the other topic there is a complete silence - did everyone overlooked that it is about Southeastern and not Southwestern Europe? Ancient Greece maybe?

Nirjhar007 said...

Great to see of course more stuff from Britain . I sense more R1b will be there from 3rd millennium BC .

EastPole said...

@Arza
„The genomic history of Southeastern Europe” will be very interesting for us and Indo-Iranians:

http://s22.postimg.org/ayiu8c9gx/tree.png

It will be published 2 hours after the beaker paper.
So my suggestion is don’t drink after the beaker paper. Read the next paper too and then celebrate.

Nirjhar007 said...

The genomic history of Southeastern Europe” will be very interesting for us and Indo-Iranians

Why? :) .

Gioiello said...

@ Arza
And nobody except me understood that you gave the solution of the conundrum and this was my comment:

"These quotes are interesting and may be a demonstration of the "Italian Refugium":
"and the lack of U5b2a2 in Russia might suggest an ice age refuge for U5b2a in Italy" [...] Impressed ware is found in the zone "covering Italy to the Ligurian coast" as distinct from the more western Cardial extending from Provence to western Portugal", i.e. mt U5b2a2 and Y R1b1 in Bell Beakers of Germany may have come from Italy.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

It's not from Italy, Spain, or North Africa. You guys are so delusional it's lost all humor. L51 came from the East. Get over it.

Rob said...

EastPole
How do you know it'll be 2 hours after ?

EastPole said...

@Nirjhar007

Why? :)



Maybe we will find out more about our common ancestors:


http://s22.postimg.org/5lrqsvldd/tree4.png

mickeydodds1 said...

It's all happening today ;)

Nirjhar007 said...

Eastpole,

Or may be not much ;) , lets see what comes out . This is a significant day for the pre-history of Europe.

EastPole said...

@Rob

I am guessing. They publish sequentially links and papers.
It takes 10-12 hours to process a paper after the link had been published
The Southeastern Europe paper link was published 1,5 hours after the link of the beaker paper.

Olympus Mons said...

Great timing....i am boardimg for long flight and only get to CHI very late...meetings all day...so probably only comment on friday...

Prediction? I predict a Huge disappintment for everyone...

Rob said...

EastPole
I see
So it means it's another 10 hours away ..

EastPole said...

@Rob
Still 4 hours to Beaker paper, and 6 hours to Southeastern Europe paper, approximately.
I am going for a walk now. David should take some sleep before. It will be late in Australia.

Arza said...

@ EastPole
Behemoth is no less interesting from the exact same reason as that tree is certainly lacking at least a line from Slavic to Germanic.

@ Gioiello
Time and DNA will tell. But at this point I wouldn't be even surprised...
It looks like pre-IE Europe was way more complicated and interesting.

ak2014b said...

"please check again shortly"
Clever how they don't define the duration of shortly.

They're trying to keep everyone up, repeatedly clicking away at the link to see if the paper has finally appeared (it can't just be me doing that), all the way until next morning. So that by then everyone's too incapacitated, either by drink or lack of shut eye (or from overuse of their clicking finger), to be able to make proper sense of the paper. Then the eurogenes comments section will be empty tomorrow, as everyone will be too busy recovering from a drunk all-nighter with a sprained index finger, and the world will conclude that no one had anything to say or argue about and that a single paper managed to silence everyone at last.

I clicked the link an undisclosed number of times more than 4 while I wrote this. Don't everyone do the same, as we don't want to find the link dead from too much traffic. Or maybe excessive traffic is why the paper isn't available yet, despite displaying the "please check again shortly" message for what must be several hours already.

Arza said...

Abstract for the second paper is in the other topic.

"intermittent steppe ancestry"

Both abstracts are published in the RSS channels:
http://connect.biorxiv.org/biorxiv_xml.php?subject=genomics+genetics

Olympus Mons said...

This paper will have a lot of: although we didn't find.... Even if no samples of that... Sample did not return...

But conclusions will be there!!!

Or not. They really nail it and we can all move on!!!

Rob said...

Jokes aside, I really hope they have samples from Italy

Gioiello said...

They cannot publish much from Italy, otherwise their play would be unmasked. Perhaps some sample chosen on purpose. It is clear that all turns around Italy: from the Rhone-Rhine to the Balkans... and they don't say that Western Anatolia had nothing to do with Middle East, Caucasus and Iran, but derived from Europe it too.

bellbeakerblogger said...

Greater than 90%?! Holy Crap.

mickeydodds1 said...

The old adage beloved of British archaeologists used to be 'long barrows = long heads, round barrows = round heads'.

Perhaps they were getting at the burial tumuli of the previous Mediterranean affiliated folk vis a vis the brachycephalic steppic beaker folk with their kurgans.

Josep Coderch said...

Gioiello

I don't think researchers are trying to hide the truth, that sounds too conspirational.
As said by Nick Patterson himself they can't just recover aDNA from wherever they want. We all wish we had samples from everywhere of the world across time but that's not possible for now.

Gioiello said...

@ Joseph Coderch

You know that I am the best supporter of the "Conspiracy theory", thus don't ask me other... anyway Sardinian researchers tested 11000 years old mt, other tested from Fumane more than 40000 years old or Paglicci...the same Villabruna 14000 ya (e mal gliene incolse!). What do you want to say, that who tested Nearderthal of 400000 years ago isn't able to test some sample from Italy?

Alberto said...

And yet another one about Iberia!

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/10/134254

Ariel said...

R1b in Iberia I0261 and I0257

Karl_K said...

Individuals from the Iberian Peninsula carried Y haplogroups known to be common across Europe during the earlier Neolithic period, such as I2a (n=3) and G2 (n=1). In contrast, Beaker-associated individuals outside Iberia
(n=44) largely carried R1b lineages (84%), associated with the arrival of Steppe migrants in central Europe during the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age. For individuals in whom we could determine the R1b subtype (n=22), we found that all but one had the derived allele for the R1b-S116/P312 polymorphism, which defines the dominant subtype in western Europe today.

Nirjhar007 said...

Z-93 from 1600 BC Bulgaria.

Folker said...

U 106 in Netherlands, L21 in the British Isles

"Six individuals outside Iberia without R1b Y-chromosomes were excavated in Hungary (n=4), Germany (n=1) and England (n=1). Interestingly, most of these individuals presented low amounts of steppe ancestry in the nuclear genome as compared to other individuals from the same régions (Figure S1)."

Simon_W said...

Haha, there dies Olympus Mons' theory. That was predictable...

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Told you!

Romulus said...

Not a single G2a from Neolithic Britain. All I2a1b and I2a2.

Karl_K said...

"These results support largely different origins 234 for Beaker Complex individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside Iberia."

Ariel said...

How do we feel about all the R1b in the balkans in the other paper?

Nirjhar007 said...

No R1a-M417 from Yamnaya.

Romulus said...

I always thought that U106 was Rhine Beaker, this confirms it.

I2a1b/I2a2 in the Neolithic Isles is huge for the I2a project. These haplogroups are uncommon but still as the paper said, about 5-10% of Modern British Y DNA. Nice to see them in Beaker Burials and Bronze Age burials too.

Karl_K said...

@Ariel

We feel that it shows that R1b was somewhat widespread within WHG/EHG cline populations (or that new seperate related Balkan HG population, should they just be called BHG?) during the mesolithic?

Nirjhar007 said...

R1b is NOT Indo-European....

Karl_K said...

@Nirjhar007

Not all R1b. But some definitely were. Yamnaya surely was.

Rob said...

Well, looks like the Kurgan hypothesis is dead & buried..

Karl_K said...

@Rob

And replaced with what?

Karl_K said...

The Southeast Europe paper was pretty clear that they do not have the proper samples from Anatolia to answer who the early Indo-Europeans were.

Rob said...

R1b is from southern Europe
R1b moved onto steppe during Mesolithic.
Continuous patchy interaction between steppe and east Balkans since LUP, but a DROP in EHG during EBA.
Bronze Age Anatolia shifts toward CHG /Iran.


Nirjhar007 said...

Replaced by facts...

Rob said...

@ Karl
Ill explain in due course.
But it's not rocket surgery

Gioiello said...

Karl_K has left a new comment on the post "The Bell Beaker Behemoth (Olalde et al. 2017 prepr...":

@Ariel

We feel that it shows that R1b was somewhat widespread within WHG/EHG cline populations during the mesolithic?


Ahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhhhh

Karl_K said...

@Rob

So you're going with CHG was Indo-European?

Gioiello said...

Rob said...
Well, looks like the Kurgan hypothesis is dead & buried..
May 10, 2017 at 7:51 AM

Karl_K said...
@Rob

And replaced with what?


Ahahahahahahahahahahahhhhhh

Karl_K said...

@Rob

"Ill explain in due course.
But it's not rocket surgery"

Dude, the phrase is 'it's not brain science".

Ariel said...

I'm I wrong or in the main PCA Bronze age balkans are sitting or northern Italy (or is it France? or Tuscans?) istead of modern balkans? I don't have the modern population reference and I'm confused.

Karl_K said...

@Gioiello

Nobody knows why you are laughing. Everyone already knew that R1b was in both WHG and EHG in the mesolithic. That is old news. Do you have any new insights?

MaxT said...

@Rob

Everything in the study points to the steppes but keep living in your fantasies.

Ariel said...

If WHG came from the balkans in the first place, then they might have had more of the y-dna variations that got lost when they went west and north. If Yamna got their R1b from some of those BHG thousands of years before the bronze age is not really a problem for the steppe theory.

Gioiello said...

Karl_K has left a new comment on the post "The Bell Beaker Behemoth (Olalde et al. 2017 prepr...":

@Gioiello

Nobody knows why you are laughing. Everyone already knew that R1b was in both WHG and EHG in the mesolithic. That is old news. Do you have any new insights?

----------------------------------
It is clear that R1b1 came from clan Villabruna, i.e. from the "Italian Refugium"!

Simon_W said...

Interesting to see that increase in yDNA I2a during the British MBA! That is in line with the present-day distribution of R1b-L21 (most common towards the west, i.e. western Scotland, western Wales, western Ireland) vs. I2a2 (peaks in Lowland Scotland and Northern Ireland). Looks like a massive R1b wave came first and then I2a2 immigrants came in and diluted this again. And this is what the aDNA confirms.

Karl_K said...

@Gioiello

OK... We already saw that in a previous paper. Why are you laughing again? Were people disputing this? I'm sorry, I just don't understand why you are quoting my comments and laughing. I have always been fine with that scenerio, but think it has nothing to do with the current language distribution in Europe.

Karl_K said...

@Ariel

"If WHG came from the balkans in the first place, then they might have had more of the y-dna variations that got lost when they went west and north. If Yamna got their R1b from some of those BHG thousands of years before the bronze age is not really a problem for the steppe theory."

Plus the extensive ongoing admixture between WHG and EHG for many thousands of years after they expanded out from a common (perhaps Balkan, due to the fact that BHG existed) source.

batman said...

Ninjar007

"R1b is NOT Indo-European...."

Of course it was. Just like R1a.
The main european branch of IE is not a creole.

Rob said...

@ OM

"For Beaker Complex individuals from Iberia, the best fit was obtained when Middle Neolithic and Copper Age populations from the same region were used as a source for their Neolithic farmer-related ancestry, and we could exclude central and northern European populations (P < 4.69E-03) (Fig. 2c). Conversely, the Neolithic farmer-related
ancestry in Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia was most closely related to central and northern European Neolithic populations with relatively high hunter-gatherer admixture (e.g. Globular_Amphora_LN, P = 0.14; TRB_Sweden_MN, P = 0.29), and we could significantly
exclude Iberian sources (P < 3.18E-08) (Fig. 2c). These results support largely different origins for Beaker Complex individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside Iberia.'

Sorry bro

Ariel said...

Based on the PCA on the South-eastern European paper I say that Italic languages came from the balkans after BB. The italian BB (from Parma, northern Italy) clusters with modern Iberians. While Balkan bronze age are very much like modern northern/central italians... Btw, 2 italian samples (the other one is WHG from Sicily) in 2 papers with hundreds of individuals....

Rob said...

@ SimonW

"Interesting to see that increase in yDNA I2a during the British MBA! That is in line with the present-day distribution of R1b-L21 (most common towards the west, i.e. western Scotland, western Wales, western Ireland) vs. I2a2 (peaks in Lowland Scotland and Northern Ireland). Looks like a massive R1b wave came first and then I2a2 immigrants came in and diluted this again. And this is what the aDNA confirms."

Why not part of the MNE bounceback ? I2a2 was present already in Britain in MNE

batman said...

Karl K

"The Southeast Europe paper was pretty clear that they do not have the proper samples from Anatolia to answer who the early Indo-Europeans were."

Does anything imply that Anatolia have a specific significance to early IE?

Folker said...

@Karl_K
"Plus the extensive ongoing admixture between WHG and EHG for many thousands of years after they expanded out from a common (perhaps Balkan, due to the fact that BHG existed) source."

Ganz klar. More studies will be necessary to settle the question.

The real matter today is about the modern subclades of R1b, all connected to Bell Beakers migrations and to Steppe admixture.

This question is settled, at last: Demic diffusion in relation to a migration from the Steppe.

Rob said...

@ Folker

"his question is settled, at last: Demic diffusion in relation to a migration from the Steppe."

Yes, as far north & west Europe goes.
Things happened differently in SEE, and Italy possibly too.

Karl_K said...

@batman

"Does anything imply that Anatolia have a specific significance to early IE?"

Yes... A very likely early IE branch is known to be in Anatolia from early written texts. Are you joking?

Of course they could have been all over the place, but nobody else was writing them down.

Josep Coderch said...

So where did the 2 R1b from Iberia come from since they don't have steppe admixture?

batman said...

Ariel,

"Based on the PCA on the South-eastern European paper I say that Italic languages came from the balkans after BB."

The culture spreading the Cordial Ware were obviously a part of the G2-dynasty/ies that formed the Minoan/proto-Hellenic civilizations. It's a bit hr to claim that they spoke some unknown, prosodic Nostratic with pitched cccclick-zoundz.

So what language do you think Oetzi's ancestors and all their G2-relatives along the Northern Meds - from Spain to Anatolia - spoke before the BB made any influence south of the Alps?

Czertni Zarzar said...

Despite the furor with this paper, do not forget the one below. Somehow strange that in the Bronze Age there was a total shift to R1b, however the authors claim that the steppe impact was very limited in that period.

The Population Genomics Of Archaeological Transition In West Iberia
Rui Martiniano, Lara M. Cassidy, Ros O'Maolduin, Russell McLaughlin, Nuno M. Silva, Licinio Manco, Daniel Fidalgo, Tania Pereira, Maria J. Coelho, Miguel Serra, Joachim Burger, Rui Parreira, Elena Moran, Antonio Valera, Eduardo Porfirio, Rui Boaventura, Ana M. Silva, Daniel G. Bradley
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/134254

Abstract
We analyse new genomic data (0.05-2.95x) from 14 ancient individuals from Portugal distributed from the Middle Neolithic (4200-3500 BC) to the Middle Bronze Age (1740-1430 BC) and impute genomewide diploid genotypes in these together with published ancient Eurasians. While discontinuity is evident in the transition to agriculture across the region, sensitive haplotype-based analyses suggest a significant degree of local hunter-gatherer contribution to later Iberian Neolithic populations. A more subtle genetic influx is also apparent in the Bronze Age, detectable from analyses including haplotype sharing with both ancient and modern genomes, D-statistics and Y-chromosome lineages. However, the limited nature of this introgression contrasts with the major Steppe migration turnovers within third Millennium northern Europe and echoes the survival of non-Indo-European language in Iberia. Changes in genomic estimates of individual height across Europe are also associated with these major cultural transitions, and ancestral components continue to correlate with modern differences in stature.

Simon_W said...

@ Rob

Because R1b in the Isles peaks in fringe and refuge areas, whereas I2a2 doesn't.

Ariel said...

"So what language do you think Oetzi's ancestors and all their G2-relatives along the Northern Meds - from Spain to Anatolia - spoke before the BB made any influence south of the Alps?"

Something Kartvelian/Basque related

Simon_W said...

Figure 2a in the Behemoth shows the Beaker individual with the highest steppe admixture located in Hungary. Just a coincidence? Maybe, but it would be in line with a derivation from Hungarian Yamnaya.

Rob said...

@ SimonW
Put another way, I2a2 survived in the more traditional farming areas
The only way to solve that is through high resolution modern data
Anyway ..:

batman said...

Karl K.

AFAIK we have some fragments of Hetitte, strongly indicating a IE language.

Which MAY imply that the early Hatti and their ancestral Guti used similar tougues. Moreover, the indications so far is that both the Guti came to Anatolia from the NW, while the Hatti came from the NE (Steppe?). The later Hatti made a substantially larger impact, but it's still unclear wetter they came from the NW or the NE.

But that all belongs to LBA Anatolia, and the period known first and most for the devastating wars that spread into this area - from the Persian Bay to the Levant - leading to both etnic cleansing and major migrations. Hardly a time and a place for any higher, linguistic culture to grow...

Moreover - the early spread of farming was some millenias before all this. If you want to uphold the main argument presently made to explain the spread of IE - along with agriculture - you may need to look further back in time. You may even have to look elsewhere than the arid Anatoilian plains, where the main cattle was and still is goats...

batman said...

Ariel,

"Something Kartvelian/Basque related"

Is that an opinion you just made out of convinience - or do you have ANY fact to support it?

Karl_K said...

@batman

"If you want to uphold the main argument presently made to explain the spread of IE - along with agriculture - you may need to look further back in time."

Why would anyone want to do that?

The only sticking point is that the connection between the Anatolian IE branches and the rest is not yet clear from either linguistics or from genetics. This can't be ignored, it should be explained.

AWood said...

Wasn't R1b among hunter-gatherers of the NORTHERN Balkans/western Ukraine somewhat expected? How else could it go both east and west? The L51+ link between east and west is likely somewhere between Ukraine and Germany sometime after the fall of the European farmers. Central European BB sprung from that decline. Whether or not this was sprung from Poland, Germany, Hungary...it's difficult to say and not that relevant. What we can say is that the evidence doesn't point to Iberia, or southern Balkans/Anatolia. A western steppe origin is still plausible.

bellbeakerblogger said...

Am I reading the current ISOGG numbering scheme right? Every one of these in the Ukraine, Balkans, Latvia R1b's are all negative for M269? Most that can be discerned look negative for M73 as well. Is the raw data available?

AWood said...

The PIE speakers were likely predominantly R1b/R1a based on the data from Ukraine/Russia. The Anatolian and Balkan IE languages were from a northern elite who didn't replace the earlier population;) I2-M223 and some other "farmer" type of lineages likely came along for the ride, but could have just as easily been derived from earlier Neolithic locals.

What's the alternative? PIE sprung from Levantines and Anatolians? Come on folks.

Colin Welling said...

Figure 2a in the Behemoth shows the Beaker individual with the highest steppe admixture located in Hungary. Just a coincidence? Maybe, but it would be in line with a derivation from Hungarian Yamnaya.

Yes simon_w, I noticed that as well. Unfortunately this paper did not exactly say how the Eastern Bell Beakers came about. One thing they made absurdly clear is that R1b came to central europe with steppe admixture. This is reflected, not only in the east west divide among beakers, but also at individual sites where the few eastern beakers without r1b had less steppe.

But when and where did the (eastern) beaker population form? The paper mentions that there was variation in the early beakers of central europe but I didnt see a whole lot. Almost all of them were about 50% steppe and only a few were far from it. So in conclusion, I think there was some admixture happening in the early beakers of central europe as well as some cultural transmission but I think the bulk of their population was formed earlier. So when and where? We really need to know what the western yamnaya were like.

Nirjhar007 said...

The PIE speakers were likely predominantly R1b/R1a based on the data from Ukraine/Russia

My god, I can't believe I read this :O .

Joukowski Transform said...

"So where did the 2 R1b from Iberia come from since they don't have steppe admixture?"

I believe the paper said they were not P312, so may be v88


"Because R1b in the Isles peaks in fringe and refuge areas, whereas I2a2 doesn't."

So, IOW, areas where farmers would be likely to survive well, right?

Czertni Zarzar said...

From the West Iberia paper mentioned above:

"However, this shift from southern to northern affinity is markedly weaker than that observed between Neolithic and Bronze Age genomes in Ireland, Scandinavia, Hungary and Central Europe. These findings suggest detectable, but comparatively modest, Steppe-related introgression present at the Portuguese Bronze Age."

"Strikingly, the array of Y-chromosome haplotypes in ancient Iberia shifts from those
typical of Neolithic populations to haplogroup R1b-M269 in each of the three BA males."

bellbeakerblogger said...

If you look at the population estimates for Central Europe (two studies linked on my current blog page) it's clear Central Europe was exploding population wise, probably from immigration.

Anthro Survey said...

@Davidski:

Yo Davidski, here is another paper I saw pop up on Razib's feed! It's about Western Iberia.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/10/134254.full.pdf

André de Vasconcelos said...

On the west Iberia paper, the 3 Bronze Age male samples are from southern Portugal (Alentejo) and their yDNAs are: R1b1a2a1a2 (2), R1b1a2 (1). Steppe ancestry is present, but to a distinctly reduced degree to that seen with other regional Neolithic-BA transitions

Ric Hern said...

Maybe G2a Chacholithics had something to do with Hattians ?

Bronze Age Maritime movement could have put R1b anywhere in Britain and Ireland creating the illusion that I2a pushed them towards the West Earlier....

Czertni Zarzar said...

And what could be the reasons for a 100% change Y-DNA with such a small overall ancestry change?

Dude ManBro said...

@ Andre, the paper also states that using ADMIXTURE, the bronze age Portuguese samples lacked the CHG component. Strange, they supposedly carried steppe ancestry, but not CHG? I was under the impression that "steppe" implied a EHG/CHG combo...

Can someone clear the confusion around this for me?

André de Vasconcelos said...

Again, considering the West Iberia paper

"A recurring feature of ADMIXTURE analyses of ancient northern Europeans is the
appearance and subsequent dissemination within the Bronze Age of a component (teal)
that is earliest identified in our dataset in HGs from the Caucasus (CHG). Unlike
contemporaries elsewhere (but similarly to earlier Hungarian BA), Portuguese BA
individuals show no signal of this component, although a slight but discernible increase in European HG ancestry (red component) is apparent. D-Statistic tests would suggest this increase is associated not with Western HG ancestry, but instead reveal significant introgression from several steppe populations into the Portuguese BA relative to the preceding LNCA (S4 Text, S6 Table)."

André de Vasconcelos said...

Yea Dude ManBro, I just quoted what you said here ;)

Dude ManBro said...

Perhaps it was an introduction of Ukrainian EHG types carrying R1b lineages to Bronze Age Portugal without the CHG admixture? Perhaps they are labeling EHG ancestry as "steppe"? Just a guess. Hopefully someone else can clear this issue up.

batman said...

BBB

"If you look at the population estimates for Central Europe (two studies linked on my current blog page) it's clear Central Europe was exploding population wise, probably from immigration."

Why must it be immigration? Is that a common trait found in anthropological research? Or is it more often the contrary, that massive migrations would normally happen only after a massive de-population - or BY a massive depopulation, as in war?

The genetic material doesn't really tell such tales about the European LNA/BA. What seems all the more likely is that a substantial part of the ENE Europe adapted to cattle-breeding and diary - making a gross utilization of the European plains and grasslands into something far more aurochses and meatballs, namely aur-cows and diaries.

The rapidily growing lactase-persistance between ENE (10-15%) and LBA (50+) is already known from aDNA. As some present farming-populations shows up to 100% LP we know the adaption to diaries have been growing ever since.

A pretty decent way to deduct where we may find the oldest populations with such adaption is to map the percentils of the present demography. That is also known. Which is a clear indicative of where this form of economy first took organized, continous forms.

In an Ireland void of milk-drinkers - and vast grasslands without populations - there would be ample spaces to fill. Especially if the coast and rivers where populated by relatively happy campers of ocean-voyaging fishermen, trappers and goat-herders - with a toungue not far from the first farmers themselves.

The same would be the case for the rest of Brittain, as well as the continental facade of the Atlantic, where the EME populations of occidental goatherders were based on y-dna I2a2 and I2a1.

Thus there's no need for dramatic effects to explain the economical and socio-politcal structures of ancient Europe. To sustain lief during the winters of the late Holocene the focus of these societies had to have a common direction - on the continous labor needed to live a decent life during the darker half of the year.

Otherwise they'd never reached the level of skills and artistery we see expressed by their patrilinear descendants - from both farmers and fishers -made throughout the celtic bronze-age and iron-age. According to Cunliffe, contionously until the Roman war-machine broke in, to loot the legendary quantities of 'gallic gold' - collecting tens of tons already during Caesars time...

There's still no archaological signs of gross social turnovers before the Roman conquest. The aDNA so far presented doesn't change that - unless you need to use a rapid growtn, due to succesful adaption, to prove a politcal or personal point.

Richard Rocca said...

Regarding CHG, the Portuguese paper says... "Unlike contemporaries elsewhere (but similarly to earlier Hungarian BA), Portuguese BA individuals show no signal of this component... but instead reveal significant introgression from several steppe populations into the Portuguese BA relative to the preceding LNCA".

In one paragraph, the asinine Caucasus > Middle East> North Africa > Portugal route for Bell Beaker is flushed down the toilet. Good riddance.

Dude ManBro said...

Richard, do you have any idea what the authors mean by "significant introgression from several steppe populations" if this "steppe" ancestry does not include CHG? Is it something akin to EHG?

Dude ManBro said...

There is no impasse, at least not in the way you are implying. BB Behemoth says that people of the Iberian BB, which began ~2900 BC, were not genetically ancestral to the later Central European BB peoples and that the Central BB group is the one that migrated to Britain and Ireland. The abstract we got a few days ago said as much in it.

The Portuguese paper says that during the Bronze Age, which is much later than the formation of the Iberian BB, "steppe" ancestry arrived in Portugal but not CHG ancestry; which seems contradictory if we assume "steppe" = EHG + CHG.

There seems to be no supplemental data for the Portuguese paper, just an ADMIXTURE K=10 chart on page 15, which shows no Caucasus admixture in the Iberian peninsula until present day Basque and Spanish. There is no data between the Portuguese Ba and modern day samples, however.

bellbeakerblogger said...

@batman,

I'm not suggesting any particular mechanism other than relative frequency changes, but the outcome is clear

Slumbery said...

Dude ManBro

Just a wild assumption (I have not read the Portuguese paper): maybe they tested Steppe and CHG in the same run and mean there was no extra CHG. Looking for extra CHG can be a sensible, because the modern East Mediterranean has extra CHG or CHG-like ancestry (I think Iberia does not however).

batman said...

Ric Hern,

G2a2 had something to do with Anatolia during the entire time-span, from the middle mesolithic to the middle ages. Anyone into the native Romans and Greeks will have to look for G2.

From the ancient graveyards of norther Spain (El Mirador), southern France (Trielles) and the Balkans (several) we know that they had a pretty initmate relatiohship with their northern 'brothers' - of the I2(a2)-line. The oldest known I2a2 is from the end of the Dvina/Dniepr-route (9.000 BP) - where the Baltic amber-traders could arrive to the Black Sea.

Consequently we have to conceive the idea that the tradesmen and dignitaries of the G2- and the I2-dynasties would be able to communicate, with words as well as written signs. The 6-7.000 years old Vinca-tablets seem to be a decent example of the latter point.

The Hittites is normally seen as a 'immigrating population', occuring some 3.700 BP in the Anatolian highlands, where they built large and heavy fortifieed cities at the highest elevations possible. This endavour can hardly be understood as anything but a countering reaction to the akkadian conquest of the old Sumerian farmers, who seem to have been an eastern branch of the G2-line. As the akkadian war-machine made its devastating way to the Levant and the Nile - a counter-action was obviously made from the European side of the Bosposros, resulting in a build up of a military force in the Anatolian 'hinterland'.

The G2-dynasty would definitly be anxious to stop the akkadian march towards the west. As would their neigbours an trade-partners up north, whose stonemasons had already proved their capabilities along the Atlantic facade. Meanwhile their metalurgists had already made hard ('genuin') bronze using tin rather than led or arsene. Which have led some of us think that the Hittite were of G2 with I2-helpers, or vice verca.

batman said...

BBB

Definitly. And they're still here - all over the place... ;-)

Dude ManBro said...

@Slumberry, that doesn't appear to be the case. In the same K=10 chart, they model Yamnaya as red (HG) and green (Caucasus), but they do not show any green in the Portuguese BA samples. Only the red (HG) and orange (EEF). That is why I am guessing by "steppe" they mean something EHG-like, although that is just a guess at this point.

Ric Hern said...

Thanks batman it makes somewhat sense.

Simon_W said...

@ Rob & Joukowski Transform

By refuge and fringe areas I didn't mean bad farming land, but more a pattern where R1b looks pushed back westwards by immigrating newcomers (relatively speaking, of course it's still predominant everywhere) - so maybe refuge area wasn't the right word, sorry. You can judge for yourself with the maps on Eupedia, if the pattern looks interesting enough or not. However, AFAIK farming declined in Britain long before the advent of Bell Beakers, from about 3000 BC, and the economy got largely pastoral. And the beginning of the Middle Bronze Age, about 1500 BC is exactly the time where real cereal farming experienced a revival. And this was likely stimulated by newcomers from the continent, rather than by the locals who had abandoned farming 1500 years earlier. But of course this presumed MBA migration cannot have been the same massive wave as the Bell Beaker invasion, far from it.

Matt said...

Reading through the paper and supplements now, few cliff notes:

- High heterogenity in steppe ancestry among BB in Europe - "At Szigetszentmiklós in Hungary, we find Beaker Complex- associated individuals with very different proportions (from 0% to 74%) of Steppe ancestry but overlapping dates. " Much less heterogenous in Britain / Netherlands.

- From the supplement, R1b1 actually appears quite common in Iberia_BB... 2/7 (28%) but not the type we're looking for. None of the Iberia_BB individuals seem to have steppe ancestry except I0461 and I0462, two females with an unknown y lineage.

- While it's cool they have looked at structure among European Neolithic populations (and found the Megalithic / Cardial signature along the Atlantic), slightly dubious of their procedure for ancestry of Bell Beaker populations - "We grouped 225 individuals from Iberia (n=19) and from outside Iberia (n=84) to increase power, and evaluated 226 the fit of different Neolithic/Copper Age groups with qpAdm under the model: Yamnaya + Neolithic/Copper Age.".

Main thing seems testing with Yamnaya+Neolithic/Copper Age has an obvious problem compared with Corded Ware+Neolithic/Copper Age, which is more likely to be the true formula for any Central European BB. Corded Ware is about 25% ancestry from Central Europe Neolithic, so any Iberian BB impact would have to be major to outweigh that.

It would be cool in future to see Davidski re-run their model with Corded Ware in place of Yamnaya.

Also no testing with the British and French MN samples who have this interesting affinity to both Hungarian and Iberian Neolithics (see Cassidy's paper today for a bit more info on this).

Not clear you want to group BB_Britain with BB_Central Europe, as much as this is understandable with even the high number of ancient n they have.

I'd like to see what this looks like in direct D-stats, rather than qpAdm.

Nevertheless, this is consistent with relatively more homogenity in ancestry in British, Dutch, French Bell Beakers than Central European.

- Looks like Bell Beakers who migrated to Britain and Ireland were not "The Milkmen" - "the lactase persistence allele at SNP rs4988235 remained at very low frequencies in our dataset both in Britain and continental Europe, showing that the major increase in its frequency in Britain, as in mainland Europe, occurred in the last 3,500 years" - at least in the sense of LP.

André de Vasconcelos said...

It means early Iberian BB was endogenous (local Iberian folk), and the culture spread to Central Europe, but not the genes. They probably traded, and central Europeans eventually adopted some of the Iberian beaker package. There's no mystery here, you're just trolling. And pretty poorly. Hopefully David will kick you out again

German Dziebel said...

It's not a behemoth study. It's a mammoth study.

Blond hair

"The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans4,5 is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) [read: backmigrated Amerindians.-G.D.] population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual Afontova Gora, which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here)."

EDAR

"The derived allele of rs3827760 in EDAR, which is common and has been a target of strong selection in present-day East Asians, is present in a single copy in one Middle Neolithic individual from Latvia (I4435), consistent with previous observations of the allele in huntergatherers from Motala in Sweden.2 This continues to support the possibility that this allele may have originated in the Ancient North Eurasians [read: backmigrated Amerindians.-G.D.] and not necessarily in ancestral East Asians."

Ariel said...

Btw, there was ANE/EHG in the balkans well before the bronze age, I was derided, ridiculed and insulted many times for saying that. Also my point about WHG in eastern Europe being the "crossroad population" for R1b instead of the steppe wasn't that far off...

Romulus said...

@German Dziebel


EDAR comes from Neanderthal so it's a potential in all Eurasian populations.

MaxT said...

Lactase persistence - Existed in WHG and Neolithic Anatolians/Iberia/Sweden farmers before steppe migration. It was later strongly selected for after steppe migration in Bronze age.

"The WHG individual Ibousierres-25 appears to carry the derived allele at the SNP rs4988235 that is strongly associated with lactase persistence in present-day Northern Europeans.

The observation of this allele, long before domestication and
dairying, would be surprising, but might be consistent with observation of lactase persistence in early Neolithic populations in Iberia and Sweden – observations that were themselves
surprising based on the absence of persistence in large samples of Anatolian Neolithic and LBK individuals. One possibility is that the allele was widely distributed at low frequencies before being strongly selected in the Bronze Age, perhaps due to changes in use or cattle."

MaxT said...

@Rob

I'm only saying what the study shows, unlike you and your fantasies. Study shows steppe migration, deal with it.

Gioiello said...

@ German Dziebel

I am too much tired now, but a few words:
1) Tuscany? To-day there is only one winner: a Tuscan. R1- was amongst the Western European hunter-gatherers, thus they all come from the Italian Refugiun of the Villabruna.
2) Also mt K1 and H were amongst them. That for Jean Manco and GailT.
3) Ariel (I don't know who he is ) says: "Btw, there was ANE/EHG in the balkans well before the bronze age, I was derided, ridiculed and insulted many times for saying that. Also my point about WHG in eastern Europe being the "crossroad population" for R1b instead of the steppe wasn't that far off..." My fight is lasting from more than ten ye-ras. Where were you then? Were you troubling around milk yet?
4) German, my friend, about X2 another time, perhaps to-morrow, that is another day.
5) Richard Rocca, Richard Stevens etc, who are they? Where is their Lionheart? Lackeys haven't neither the lion nor the heart.

bellbeakerblogger said...

@Matt

It would be cool in future to see Davidski re-run their model with Corded Ware in place of Yamnaya."


This is what they wrote on page 73 of the supplement 1.. "We obtain a good fit for Globular_Amphora_LN and TRB_Sweden_MN, two populations with a hunter-gatherer component close to KO1 on the cline defined by LaBrana1-LO1..." and "Other central European populations such as Germany-MN or Hungary_LCA are rejected, but their fit can be improved by adding KO1 as a third source.."

Sounds like direct CWC ancestry. In fact, a large portion of BBC ancestry should be CWC ancestry. So really it's the other 25% or 50% that's mysterious, I'd think.

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MaxT said...

@Rob

For all I.E langauges, steppe horses and chariots did not appear in Anatolia out of thin-air. And, yes Siberia is relevant in context of ANE, deal with it.

Anatolian hypotheses is dead.

MaxT said...

The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia

"Iberia is unusual in harbouring a surviving pre-Indo-European language, Euskera, and inscription evidence at the dawn of history suggests that pre-Indo- European speech prevailed over a majority of its eastern territory with Celtic-related language emerging in the west. Our results showing that predominantly Anatolian- derived ancestry in the Neolithic extended to the Atlantic edge strengthen the suggestion that Euskara is unlikely to be a Mesolithic remnant [17,18]. Also our observed definite, but limited, Bronze Age influx resonates with the incomplete Indo- European linguistic conversion on the peninsula, although there are subsequent genetic changes in Iberia and defining a horizon for language shift is not yet possible. This contrasts with northern Europe which both lacks evidence for earlier language strata and experienced a more profound Bronze Age migration."

P Piranha said...

All HG populations in Eastern Europe, including Latvian HG and Ukraine HG, have EHG admixture. There is a continuous cline from WHG--Koros and Iron-Gates HG--Latvia HG--Motala--Ukraine Neolithic--Ukraine Mesolithic--EHG and Latvia_MN. The only "WHG" occurrence of R1b we have thus far is Villabruna and Blatterhohle, and R1b increases dramatically in occurrence as we move East. These facts should be clear before we make any deductions.

P Piranha said...

Weren't we just talking a while ago about how archaeology seems to lean toward an eastern Caucasus-mediated spread of Anatolian Languages? Surely that is an open prospect.

Rob said...

@ MaxT

"For all I.E langauges, steppe horses and chariots did not appear in Anatolia out of thin-air. And, yes Siberia is relevant in context of ANE, deal with it."


PIE came with CHG from south of the Caucasus, and the earliest horse domestication sites are in south central Asia, not Mal'ta.
Facts; - no steppe migration to Balkans
- no steppe migration to Anatolia
- The steppe episode is late northwest Indo-European

ANE spoke Uralic or Eskimo

Anthro Survey said...

@Andre

Taking together the data in the Iberia and BB papers, there is something interesting I noted pertaining to our previous discussion. There appears to be a complete absence of North African influence judging by uniparental markers and autosomally. So, I am forced to conclude that this is something to look for in the late bronze or Roman eras.

andrew said...

Lingering questions:

1. Why do participants in a mass folk migration from the Steppe to Central and Western Europe adopt the Bell Beaker material culture that is pitched by wandering missionary/traders from Iberia with little or no demographic impact?

2. What would the census population of the folk migrating people from the Yamnaya steppe to Europe be?

3. Would the material culture shift also include a language shift, and if so why? If the non-Iberian Bell Beakers spoke an Indo-European language, it couldn't have been Celtic because the Celtic languages are too closely related to have that much time depth in their relationships to each other (ditto the Germanic languages). What language could they have spoken?

4. Why did Iberian Bell Beaker and non-Iberian Bell Beaker stay so demographically distinct even after they had adopted a common material culture and probably a common religion as well. Is that a sign that they spoke different languages from each other?

5. LP "was later strongly selected for after steppe migration in Bronze age." Not really. The selection didn't start in earnest until after 1500 BCE and Bronze Age collapse is 1200 BCE. Most of the selection happens during Bronze Age collapse, its immediate aftermath, and the Iron Age. What in that time frame causes such a hard sweep in favor of the LP allele?

6. Why don't horses play a larger symbolic and practical role in Bell Beaker culture given their origins?

JohnP said...

@Rob
Steppe will enter the Balkans a little later - it's the famous "Hellenic Invasions". Before that, there lived Pelasgians, Mycenaeans and Minoans, who didn't have Steppe and were more related to Middle Eastern populations of their time than to the forming Europeans.
This study's data actually confirms history and interferes in no way with the Steppe proposition.

Rob said...

@ JohnP

Nonsense. They have a transect already

JohnP said...

@andrew
I can answer 6:
Horse-culture thrived in the Steppes, but Western Europe was deep forest and horses had little use.
In fact, this is one major factor of the whole Indo-European limits: They only stopped expanding where their horses couldn't reach.
Also, BB would only start speaking IE languages after contact with Corded Ware, before that they spoke pre-Indo European Languages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Indo-European_languages

Rob said...

@ Andrew

1) The BB didn;t pick up any material culture from Iberia. Theirs was a wholly different culture, and only picked a Rhine-transformed Beaker pot, third hand (Portugal-> Brittany-> Rhine)

2) ? Dont understand the question.

3) Given that R1b didn;t arrive to Iberia until 1500 BC, that is consistent with *proto-Celtic

4) They didn;t have a common meterial culture. Early Atlantic BB is different to BB East.

5) --

6) Yes it seems the horse played little actual role, contra to more imaginative scholars. There's no real evidence for horsemanship in Western Europe before the Hallstatt era

JohnP said...

@Rob
>>Nonsense. They have a transect already<<
You realize that Indo-Europeans could have reached Anatolia via the Caucasus just like your CHG proposal?
In fact, this is much more likely, as throughout millennia Steppe-peoples roamed trough it (How Kartvelian survived remains a mystery to me), today we have North Ossetian as an example of Indo-European language of the Caucasus, descended from Scythians.

MaxT said...

Some updates from BellBeakerblogger.

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/05/updates-throughout.html

1) Beaker appears to have come directly from the Pontic-Caspian steppe while absorbing LBK-like or admixed ancestry. Census estimates and other data supports this.

2) Many of their mito-profiles look steppic.

3) The Ukraine looks mixed

4) Skin, eyes and LP basically identical to Yamnaya, changes over time.

5) Not a trickle of people. Waves of immigrants first into Europe, then the isles with massive population increases following (older papers below).

6) Areas of Europe less affected initially get theirs in the Bronze Age.

7) R1b completely absent in Neolithic British samples n=20

8) I2a nearly completely absent in British EBA (which is admittedly biased for diagnostic BC)

9) No R1a in NE Scottish Beakers.

10) Lactase Persistence is very low even in the British Bronze Age

11) Iberian Beakers have zero steppe admixture

12) Dutch and British Beakers are identical

13) 95% of British Beakers are R1b P312.

Matt said...

@BBB, yeah, to me it sounds like the majority of ancestry in CE BBC should be CE CWC, and therefore may be why there is the closest link to CE Neolithic (plus other associations deeper in the ancestry)... But at the same time, I'm not sure this does disprove some association with Iberian ancestry into CE BBC, and any explanation should square with e.g. Rathlin Island Bronze Age (presumably Bell Beaker derived population?) showing most significant association to Ballynahatty Irish Neolithic for not Yamnaya like portion of ancestry (and apparently not CE Neolithic).

They steer away from any qpAdm model for CE Bell Beaker like French_MLN + Corded Ware which seems to me might be more applicable in reality (perhaps it is just too complex to test with qpAdm).

@ P Piranha, what's the angle with the comment on R1b? If it's to say that we have no idea whether R1 or R1a / R1b arose on an EHG / WHG background then I think that's basically true. If it's to argue that we have strong evidence it's likely R1 or R1a / R1b arose on a purely ANE background / within Siberia then... well, we have zero R1 from any ANE population (only R*), and EHG is about 30% WHG, 60% ANE at best.

Rob said...

JohnP

They have genomes from IE region of Anatolia - no steppe but CHG / Iran shift
They have post-Copper Age data from Balkans- there is no steppe increase, in fact there is a *drop* .
So I suggest you, Max and Folker come up with the "IndoEuropean Osmosis theory".

André de Vasconcelos said...

@Anthro Survey

I haven't checked the BB Behemoth paper yet, I just read through the West Iberia one, which unfortunetly still doesn't have supplementary material tables made avaliable.

On ADMIXTURE they say the lowest median CV error was attained using K=10, they present an image of it (page 15), and it does indeed seem that there's something minor that modern Spaniards (and Portuguese by extension, I assume) have that was largely absent beforehand - coloured periwinkle blue(?) - but not totally. I don't know what it is, but here's what I'm talking about.

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh621/Sawelios/ADMIXTURE%20K10_zpsgshtwdtb.png~original

Might this be something related to it? An Irish_EBA also has it - as does the East Mediterranean British Roman - , so maybe it has nothing to do North Africa, and that this did indeed arrive to Iberia after the MBA (if we assume the rest of the peninsula doesn't differ much from these samples).

MaxT said...

@Matt

EHG is about 75% ANE as per Lazaridis study. If we find ancient R1*, it won't be that different from ANE, should cluster somewhere close to Mal'ta Buret (who carried R*) or Afontova Gora 3 (no idea yet), only time will tell.

JohnP said...

@Rob
>>They have genomes from IE region of Anatolia<<
Source? As far as I know, they have 1 Hittite skeleton and they didn't sequenced it yet, nothing else.

Vara said...

@rob

Since there is a Early-Middle-Late PIE thingy now, do you think that some unclassified Near Eastern languages, like Elamite and Sumerian, can be IE?

Matt said...

@MaxT "only time will tell" is the only thing I can agree with strongly there...

@Rob, re: Bronze Age Balkans, IIUC more specifically: In a few individuals from southeastern Europe, we find evidence of steppe-related ancestry far earlier (defined here as a mixture of EHG and CHG similar to the genetic signature of individuals of the later Yamnaya; Figure 1B,D) ..... Other Copper Age (~5000-4000 BCE) individuals from the Balkans have little evidence of steppe ancestry, but Bronze Age (~3400-1100 BCE) individuals do (we estimate 30%; CI: 26-35%). The four latest Balkan Bronze Age individuals in our data (later than ~1700 BCE) all have more steppe ancestry than earlier Bronze Age individuals (3200-2500 BCE; Figure 1D), showing that the contribution of the Steppe to southeast European populations increased further during the Bronze Age.

Steppe related ancestry in pre-Bronze Age Balkans was highly heterogenous, (and IIUC furthermore heterogenous *in* CHG:EHG ratio, not necessarily suggestive of a Yamnaya source?). Substantial for some, non-existent for many more others. It is at a substained higher level later in history.

The Bronze Age Anatolians they have show no evidence EHG / WHG... but later populations of Anatolia probably do and will show more evidence of EHG / WHG (I believe present day populations do). Possible migration by a population speaking a language ancestral to Greek / Armenian... But this would not be a pre-"Late Proto Indo European" language, like the Anatolian languages are supposed to be.

Richard Rocca said...

@Gioiello, you can pretend with these newbies, but not with somebody that has known your nonsense for almost a decade. Your theory is that L51 is three times older than Bell Beaker. That L51 originated in Italy and spread to Iberia with the Early Neolithic Cardial Ware Culture, and from Iberia it spread all over Europe with Bell Beaker. Of course, all of that has now been refuted. You are a fraud.

MaxT said...

Considering we still don't know what Afontova Gora 3 and Afontova Gora 2 Y-DNA is, it's possible we could find R1* there.

Arza said...

E09537_d Feature 68 Skeleton 2 Tooth F K1a 87970 1240k capture This study Sequencing data (Tübingen) Yes half BB_Central_Europe BB_Germany_BAV Yes 2464–2212 calBCE (3870±30 BP, MAMS-29075) Unterer Talweg 58-62 (Augsburg) AugU 48,32 10,89 Germany

This is the second most Yamna-packed sample among all Bell Beakers.
A woman.
From Augsburg.

The Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech Valley: a Bioarchaeological Perspective

The DNA analysis enables us to understand family relations within the
burial sites as well as the transformation of the genomic patterns from the Corded Ware to
the Bell Beaker Complex
and further on to the Early Bronze Age. In the end, we are able to
present a new narrative for the genesis as well as the end of the Bell Beaker Complex at
least for the Lech Valley south of Augsburg.


Olalde, Figure S1 - She had steppe ancestry level identical to CWC Germany

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-k1DcF3k75hw/WROgZOb6rAI/AAAAAAAAAIo/U7ntqrJ3AdYbbHUHlHVqyxLutH2O9bQogCLcB/s1600/LechLady.png

Tobus said...

@German:The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 ... origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE)[read: backmigrated Amerindians.-G.D.]

Amerindians don't have derived rs1281256

German Dziebel said...

@Tobus

"Amerindians don't have derived rs1281256.

Naturlich. The mutation occurred after ANEs had left America.

Arza said...

Most Yamna ancestry:
I2787 GEN_59, Grave 688 Petrous (cochlea, right) M T2b R1b1a1a2a2 669314 1240k capture This study DNA library (Budapest) No half BB_Central_Europe BB_Hungary_Szi3 Yes 2458–2202 calBCE (3840±35 BP, Poz-83640) Szigetszentmiklós,Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő Szi 47,383224 19,020252 Hungary

So the only two Bell Beaker samples that plot in the early-CWC zone are a guy from Hungary with Yamnayan R-Z2103 and... possibly a CWC woman.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jGkFU_CKlUE/WROoHD9U8aI/AAAAAAAAAI4/zKSl9L6Kb0AfwKcE00IJTQKAE3CDRmfbwCLcB/s1600/CWCzone.png

P Piranha said...

Ryukendo at Anthrogenica has offered an interesting observation about impacts in SE Europe:

Link

Atriðr said...

@Rob
Given that R1b didn;t arrive to Iberia until 1500 BC, that is consistent with *proto-Celtic

Yes, one of the biggest take-aways imo.

Anthro Survey said...

@Andre:

To be quite honest with you, I don't know what to tell you about that sliver of light blue, but I have a couple of guesses.

Assuming this is BasalRich-related and not SSA:
W/regards to Irish_EBA and Portuguese_EBA, it could be trace of Levantine sailors, not necessarily North Africans. Recall that the isles had a reputation for being tin and lead exporters in the ancient world. The Guadalquivir and its surroundings were likewise known as an important trade hub in the Mediterranean(which culminated in the rise of the Tartessians between 1000 and 700BC).

Assuming that this is actually SSA:
This works, too. It's absent in the Neolithic Anatolian samples. The Jewish guy from Roman Britain had a bit, its magnitude consistent with a slight presence of SSA in the modern Levant, which is higher than that found in Iberia but lower than in North Africa. Modern Spaniards have this component, but not Basques, again consistent with SSA distribution pattern on the peninsula. The magnitude is roughly 2-3 percentage points, too. If this is not SSA, what is? Certainly not the dark green sliver: this is associated with the eastern steppe. Spaniards should have SSA above baseline levels.

Richard Rocca said...

@Gioiello, here are two more of your Cardial Ware samples, this time from Croatia... one is haplogoup C1a2 and the other is E1b1b1a1b1. Tell us again how Italian L51 Cardial Ware expanded throughout all of Europe but managed to stay hidden when all others are revealed?

Rob said...

@ Matt

"The four latest Balkan Bronze Age individuals in our data (later than ~1700 BCE) all have more steppe ancestry than earlier Bronze Age individuals (3200-2500 BCE; Figure 1D), showing that the contribution of the Steppe to southeast European populations increased further during the Bronze Age."

Putting aside the question whether 1700BC this is too late for Mycaenean, the question of nuclear will be clarified with actual Mycenean genomes, and Indian aDNA. But the question of Indo-Hittie looks non-steppic at present. Not loads of data, but what we do have suggests exactly as Reich & Krause have pointed out. We can cry all we want to.

Anthro Survey said...

@RichardRocca:

I didn't notice that e-v13. That's pretty cool and makes it the oldest such sample in Europe to date. In fact, it's the only ancient e1b sample of any clade/subclade we have from pre-iron age Europe---and at such an early date! My curiosity as to how E-v13 came to Europe is officially re-awakened. I envision two scenarios: 1)Pelloponese(or thereabout) neolithic wave of colonizers
2)from Lybia into Southern Italy and into the Balkans(this was proposed in a forum whose name I can't remember atm)

Arza said...

@ Richard Rocca
Treat this just like an exercise:

Almost all R1b Hunter-Gathereres moved north from the Italian Ice Age refugium together with the climatic zone to which they were adapted (as plants and animals did). A variety of old lineages was preserved in the mountain valleys as the micro-climate there is more "northern" than in the rest of the Italy today.

Ice Age coast line:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Ice_Age_Europe_map.png

Note the ice cap in the Alps and the land bridge between Italy and Balkans. Balkans are the hot-spot of R1b.
Balkans weren't blocked by separate ice cap so again some of HG stayed in the valleys, and some (as climate was getting warmer) went north - straight to Latvia.

Illya P. Constant said...

Russia all the way to Croatia had R1b-Z2103 so R1b-S116/P312 must have gotten to central Europe through Italy, which is consistent with the data on the history of R1b:
"R1b1a1a2a (R-L23)
R-L23* (R1b1a1a2a*) is now most commonly found in Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Mediterranean .
R1b1a1a2a1 (R-L51)
R-L51* (R1b1a1a2a1*) is now concentrated in a geographical cluster centred on southern France and northern Italy."

Ric Hern said...

@Arza

How did R1 get to Italy in the first place and from where if what you say is true ?

Rob said...

@ Arza/ Ric

There is no evidence for any movement of LUP or Mesolithic populations from Italy. The obvious centre for R1b radiation to NE Italy, the Baltic and Balkans is the carpathian-Moldavian refuge zone

Ric Hern said...

@Rob

That is precisely what I also think.

andrew said...

@Rob Re #2 I mean how many people were in the group that migrated from the steppe to Europe. Was it a few dozen, a few hundred, a few thousand, tens of thousands of people, or more?

R1b is present in Iberia well before 1500 BCE, even though steppe ancestry isn't very high in those individuals. The oldest R1b in Iberia is something like 2300 BCE and the Portugal paper has three MBA R1b individuals although they have less steppe ancestry than those elsewhere.

I think it is pretty widely acknowledge that all BB material culture has a common origin in Iberia. Yes, there are variations on a theme that develop, but I think it is unduly dismissive to say that Iberian BB and non-Iberian BB have nothing of consequence in common.

Atriðr said...

The obvious centre for R1b radiation to NE Italy, the Baltic and Balkans is the carpathian-Moldavian refuge zone

Bingo.

Atriðr said...

Eventually in a few days or few months, it will be realized that the real behemoth was "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe."

Gioiello said...

@ Richard Rocca

"@Gioiello, you can pretend with these newbies, but not with somebody that has known your nonsense for almost a decade. Your theory is that L51 is three times older than Bell Beaker. That L51 originated in Italy and spread to Iberia with the Early Neolithic Cardial Ware Culture, and from Iberia it spread all over Europe with Bell Beaker. Of course, all of that has now been refuted. You are a fraud".

1) I said that R1b1 came out of an "Italian Refugium" ten years before Villabruna were found (2 May 2016). I said also that I hope that also R1a is found close to Villabruna.
2) That R-V88 came out from Italy I think having abondantly demonstrated.
3) I said that there was a migration from Italy to Ineria 7500 years ago (see Zilhao). It is cleat that there were R-V88, but I spoke also of hg. G and even E etc., and that in Italy there were at least three languages: a Caucasian one linked to Sardinia, from that perhaps Basque with their I-M26, an Indo-European one and an interemediate one (Etruscan): see Alfredo Trombetti. For that I hypothesized that the diffusion of R-P312 happened from Iberia with Bell Beakers, but I said that Bell Beakers were also in Southern France and Italy: and very likely all the R1b in central Europe came from the line Rhone-Rhine. I wrote many years ago to you to consider that culture of the "Vasi a bocca quadrata", who were warriors.
4) My map say that Italy is the centre of R-L51-PF7589 (and also yours, with an extension to Central France): there they have to search.
5) With these two last samples of aDNA, Y in Italy reaches the number of 7. Ahahahahahah
Let that they test more, and we'll speak again.

Nirjhar007 said...

Putting aside the question whether 1700BC this is too late for Mycaenean

Its definitely late for Anatolian .Mycenaean I suspect will largely be CHG with minor EHG appearing ..

Question is which Hgs they represent , I hope Z-93 don't turn up ;)...

batman said...

ARZA,

"Ice Age coast line:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Ice_Age_Europe_map.png"

This page is obviously an H-O-A-X.

Any home-made drawing made by unnamed amateurs to be usd by a fringe, arabian wiki-page is less than scientific. In this case it's a clean-cut freud that have nothing to do in Wiki.

Adressing matters connected to ice-time You should know better.

batman said...


These points in France and the low countries then acted as diffusion centres further east – along the Rhine- where Corded Ware / Single Grave communities had established themselves, and had already began trading with the flints centres in Grand Pressigny."

Perhaps. But it's hardly the whole story...

"Something about their arrival to the westernmost periphery of CWC, & contact with the Megalithic cultures, facilitated somewhat of a religious transformation;"

"Religious" (from re-le-gare) is a medeval term. Which is why this 'termination' becomes anachronistic. Why not use objective terms like "burial traditions"?

"...they abandoned the battle axe for arrows and wristguards,"

Wristguars, like this one?
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/241318627_fig3_Figure-3-Left-The-wide-bracelet-from-the-Mezin-Paleolithic-settlement-Chernigiv


"...and switched the orientation of their burial from E-W to N-S. Ergo the eastern BB groups were born."

Could be. Are you able to adress some y-dna to both these orientations?

kony1_1 said...

@batman: "This page is obviously an H-O-A-X."

it's quite good actually: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d7/73/a1/d773a10f40b320be9495a8485e00883f.jpg
you can find many other reconstructions that look basicaly the same

the refugium forms a compact zone, R1b found in any part of it means it was present everywhere, from Italy to Ukraine

Rob said...

@ Batman
Agree. Let's get some more Mesolithic DNA from Northern Europe ! Swifterband, Ertobolle, etc

Rob said...

@ Andrew

The BB phenomenon was truly heterogeneous, culturally and genetically.

What came out of Iberia was the maritime beaker itself, being a product of the Copos found in Chalcolithic Portugal etc. Corded Ware influences coming down the Atlantic from the lower Rhine helped form the final maritime beaker design. Maritime beaker was then exported in great quantity to Brittany, and to a small degree lower Rhine, which influenced the emergence of AOC /AOO from Corded War pots (PFB). These points in France and the low countries then acted as diffusion centres further east – along the Rhine- where Corded Ware / Single Grave communities had established themselves, and had already began trading with the flints centres in Grand Pressigny. Something about their arrival to the westernmost periphery of CWC, & contact with the Megalithic cultures, facilitated somewhat of a religious transformation; whereby they abandoned the battle axe for arrows and wristguards, and switched the orientation of their burial from E-W to N-S. Ergo the eastern BB groups were born.

In turn, the contact with eastern groups – CWC, even GAC before them, also affected Megalithic societies. One such cultural shift notable is that they began to use single burials also, but of a very different character to CWC/ eastern BB, but developing out of collective Megalithic context. Indeed, it was individualized burial in Megalithic graves. So there were two initially different but socially converging but ultimately competitive systems gearing up toward one another, with one coming up pre-eminent.

Karl_K said...

@Rob

"Something about their arrival to the westernmost periphery of CWC, & contact with the Megalithic cultures, facilitated somewhat of a religious transformation; whereby they abandoned the battle axe for arrows and wristguards, and switched the orientation of their burial from E-W to N-S. Ergo the eastern BB groups were born."

Honestly, this part seems sketchy, especially based on the R1b/R1a difference between East Beakers and Corded Ware.

These were not just regular CWC people being 'converted' to a new religion. The steppe 'converts' mostly had a specific genetic marker that they could not have known even existed.

This requires a strong division from the nearby Corded Ware community, at least on the male side.

They could not have been all a single steppe immigrant culture before the R1b/steppe people started being Beaker people.

Rob said...

@ Karl

Yes i think that's true to an extent. Yet the gendered burial they share was unique to northern Europe. It's not a steppe institution. It seems that the question of M269 isn;t yet solved to those chasing it. But the new data , esp Mesolithic EE was marvelllous.

Karl_K said...

@Rob

Of course. This data clears up a lot of confusion. Very well done.

The arising questions are more specific, but no less perplexing.

Richard Rocca said...

@Gioiello... the people you were arguing with (insulting) didn't give a crap about R-V88, nor G nor I. You were aggressively debating L51 and P312 being in Italian Cardial Ware and now you are mentioning those others haplogroups out of desperation. Again, for not owning up to what you said, you are a fraud.

Karl_K said...

@ Richard

I think it might be best just to let Gioiello pass into obscurity.

No need for insults. The data is making it all clear. In less than three years, he will be feeling great about reality.

Gioiello said...

@ Richard Rocca

"@Gioiello... the people you were arguing with (insulting) didn't give a crap about R-V88, nor G nor I. You were aggressively debating L51 and P312 being in Italian Cardial Ware and now you are mentioning those others haplogroups out of desperation. Again, for not owning up to what you said, you are a fraud".

I have always said that in the Italian Refugium there were all the R1b1 subclades (and I hope much other, comprised R1a), thus from R-V88 to R-L389, R-M73, R-M269, R-L23-Z2105 (some subclades, not all come from Samara) to above all R-L51 and all the subclades. That R-V88 is believed now coming from Italy, after the R-V88 in Iberia with the migration of 7500 years ago which Zilhao spoke about and with all the samples in the Blakans now, is important, because your friends and your boss supported the Middle Eastern origin, now ended in the shit where they lived and live.
I cannot read Anthrogenica, linked to your boss and the "crininal firm", but from the Activity stream :
"Yes, but ADW_1981 said only R1b in general. Sure, R1b-L51 was not found in the Balkans in this paper, but it has not been found on the steppe..." (Kristiina)
"You don't find it too much of a coincidence that Z2105 and L51 are both subclades of L23? If the steppe ancestry in BB was Corded Ware mediated,..." (the reasoning of a moron like you, one like you without lion and heart)
"I agree that L51 in Vucedol and western Yamnaya isn't ruled out. But another place where Yamnaya settled was in Hungary and also there R1b-Z2103 was... " (rafc)-
You are only a lackey, and learn for the next time what to be Italian does mean. With me you lost, and you will lose for ever.

batman said...

Rob

"Let's get some more Mesolithic DNA from Northern Europe ! Swifterband, Ertobolle, etc"

Be careful what you wish for - it may come true... ;-)

Meanwhile I'll be happy to know your assesment of the co-relation between clearly defined symbol-motives found on the wristguard and the falcons from Mezin, that continued to affect the mesolitic art of the Eurasian mesolithic - reoccuring as immediate paralells ('copies') from various sites of the Eurasian neolithic (Vincha, Tisza, Vadastra). They're all centered around the well-known sun-wheel known from all I-E civilizations evolving during LNE/BA/IA - as well as their E-Asian neighbours...

Wristguard:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fa/93/3a/fa933aa4c228b2ef24e5070cbadf1f10.gif

Minoan:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b7/1a/fe/b71afeb10c3d0cc46bc74f4c6dff011e.jpg

Vinca, et al:
http://symmetry-us.com/Journals/radovic/

Is it possible to call these identical expressions 'coincidencental'? If not, then what?

Davidski said...

Gioiello and Richard,

Please take your discussion to e-mail or Skype. If latter, feel free to post some highlights of your meeting on Youtube. I'm sure it'll be a hit.

Karl_K said...

@batman

"Be careful what you wish for - it may come true..."

No reasonable people are 'wishing' for anything. We actually like facts, as crazy as that seems.

Karl_K said...

@Davidski

"feel free to post some highlights of your meeting on Youtube. I'm sure it'll be a hit."

Now that's a good idea.

batman said...

If Ad Hominem stays in Absurdum he get to vaccate in Cognito.

I rather lend my ear to Tommy Emmanuel. He's already 'Live' on Youtube - without no strings attached.

batman said...

Karl K,

"We actually like facts, as crazy as that seems."

Great. I just posted a small bunch of them - regarding the cryptic roots of the I-E symbolism. Hope you find them enjoyable.

batman said...

Karl,

"The steppe 'converts' mostly had a specific genetic marker that they could not have known even existed."

If I know my fathers line in 28 generations - I know I'm part of something more than the "here" and the "now". Moreover - as my grandfather, already, where a nobleman (earl, marki) I would have a clear comprehension of which nobility and royal house - and thus 'tribe' or 'pi-pole' - I belong.

With this kind of identity I don't need to know genetics to understand where I come from and where I belong - as one 'leave' (lif) of a long tradition and thus a lager family-three.

Which is exactly why the various dynasties could stay a put - to keep both integrity as well as identity - as an "extended family".

"This requires a strong division from the nearby Corded Ware community, at least on the male side."

Yes. And the 'extended family' (aet-nos) - based on the (strict) dynastical y-lines - explains both why and how.

Karl_K said...

@batman

In a sense... yes.

But in reality, you absolutely do NOT know your fathers line in 28 generations.

And you sure as hell didn't before written language was around.

This is the result of a strict generation to generation, 1 to 1, process. Perhaps with a very minor grandson exception.

jv said...

Thanks David for the spreadsheet. 2 "new" mtDNA H6 samples from the Beaker paper! BBC Oostwoud-Tuithoorn West Frisia Netherlands 1883-1665 BCE female? Then, MBA(1442-1273 BCE) Scotland male mtDNA H6a1b2 and yDNA I2a2a1a1a1. (but I believe the Southeastern European paper contained no H6) Thanks again!

David Rabaez said...

According to ISSOG the following samples would be L2. It is right? Thank you

BB_Central_Europe BB_Germany_BAV E09569 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1
BB_Central_Europe BB_Germany_BAV I3589 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1
BB_Central_Europe BB_Hungary_HUN I2365 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1
BB_Central_Europe NA I3597 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1
BB_Southern_France BB_France_AHP I3875 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1

Regards!

David

epoch2013 said...

@Karl_K

"In my linguistic estimate, xyyman is either just a troll from North-East Europe, or, smarter, but from a bigger city in North America."

Whatever it is, he stop "SMH". It seems to do damage.

On a more serious note, I wouldn't say that non-literate peoples don't know their forefathers. Take a look at Germanic nobles: The produced long genealogies that indeed came from mythical sources but are considered partly correct. Take Arab tribes that have mythical forefathers, or Scottish clans.

Illiterate societies manage to pass on far more information than you'd think. Gothic myths described by Ammianus Marcellinus return 800 years later in recognizable forms.

batman said...

"But in reality, you absolutely do NOT know your fathers line in 28 generations.

And you sure as hell didn't before written language was around."

Please stop talking out of you hine end. Anyone with a sane mind can easily learn and remember 28 names, by heart.

There's still story-teller-traditions existing among the Bards of Ireland and Scottland - where the old clans ('extended families') of Highlanders assemble of the Family Estate - to listen to their family-bards recite stories of 'traded memories' going up to 4.500 years back in time.

Before modern media and hightech reached Carelia and Kainuu (middle/northern Finland) they had "runsingers" able to recite rows of old songs, poetry and prose for days in and out - week after week, month after month - from early spring till late fall.

According to Caesars annals the "Galli" had three lines of academia, headed by full-fledged Druids, Bards and Vates. The first cathegory were versed in the 'mysteries' of nature. The third with social sciences and functions.
As all other gothic/germanic peoples they did not ALLOW paper as a helping-tool in the education - to KEEP their knowledge fully integrated and qualitative - as well as quantitative.

The same pedagogics were used within the Greek and Gothic academia as well. Libraries were for storing and checking, not for daily use. AFAIK, Pythagoras didn't allow any of it.

Moreover, says Caesar, to become a Druid you "had to complete 20 years of education and trainining". With hardly any books.

Among Inuits and Aborinees our modern folklorists have found traded memories going several millenias back. At the In Australia they've proved old stories about large, extraordinary incidents to be from 9.000 to 13.000 years old.

About time to leave your anachronisms behind, Karl, before it - sure as hell - becomes habitual.

"This is the result of a strict generation to generation, 1 to 1, process. Perhaps with a very minor grandson exception."

As mentioned. You have NO fact and NO clue about what you speak. Better wake up and smell some coffee. Gnothi Seauton!

Anthro Survey said...

I2a1b2a1 in Motala.....am I reading that correctly? Isn't that the modal subclade found in Balkan countries w/a TMRCA of only ~2000 years?

Dmytro said...

"I2a1b2a1 in Motala.....am I reading that correctly?" Yes. It's CTS10228 all right. I pointed this out on Anthrogenica, but an Yfull specialist suggested that they had this wrong because they used the old L147 indicator no longer viewed as reliable. His rebuttal, though, was not exactly conclusive... So we'll have to wait and see. In any case most of these Motala HG's are definitely in the line eventually leading to one of today's Slavs significant haplogroups. Could it have been hiding in Sweden in the 6th millennium BCE? I don't see why not...

Grey said...

Ric Hern said...

"Bronze Age Maritime movement could have put R1b anywhere in Britain and Ireland creating the illusion that I2a pushed them towards the West Earlier...."

i don't know how accurate it is but this atlantic megalith map

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/71/69/3e/71693e5b7508ff77b1a722b03e1c3adc.jpg

always looked to me to be possibly mining related: Brittany, SW Britain, Wales, Ireland all had one or more of early gold, silver, copper or tin mines - a possible explanation for an early originally maritime distribution

plus to me it always looked like the "Irish" ydna clade expanded from the west.

Grey said...

Czertni Zarzar said...
"And what could be the reasons for a 100% change Y-DNA with such a small overall ancestry change?"

It would have to be something significant and Iberia as a whole isn't Atlantic coast cattle country.

My guess is getting bronze swords first - which imo implies metal workers.

Grey said...

P Piranha said...
"Ryukendo at Anthrogenica has offered an interesting observation about impacts in SE Europe:"

from the link

"What is going on? Anyone have any ideas?"

miners first, herders second?

(miners only where metals are, herders only where cattle - rather than goats/sheep - were best suited)

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