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Saturday, March 23, 2019

How did Y-haplogroup J2b get to Europe?


Y-haplogroup J2b, defined by the L282 mutation, is found throughout Europe and reaches relatively high frequencies in the southeastern part of the continent. But the question of how and when it got to Europe is still wide open.

It's certainly native to the Near East, where all of the main subclades of Y-haplogroup J2 show more structure than anywhere else. Indeed, it's first attested in the ancient DNA record in an Early Neolithic sample from the Zagros Mountains, in what is now western Iran, dating to ~8,000 calBCE.

It doesn't appear outside of this region until a few thousand years later, when it's recorded in an Early Bronze Age sample dating to ~2,300 calBCE from a site near the Mediterranean Sea in present-day Jordan.

In Europe, it's first attested in a Middle Bronze Age sample from the Caucasus Mountains, in what is now southern Russia, dating to ~1900 calBCE. However, this individual's burial site is practically in the Near East, and, in fact, in terms of ancestry and archeology he is best described as Near Eastern. Importantly, he's also not directly associated with any population that contributed to the genetic structure of Europeans (for instance, see here).

J2b first appears deep in Europe a little later during the Middle Bronze Age, in several samples from sites near the Mediterranean coast in what are now Croatia and Sardinia. This is obviously nowhere near the Caucasus, but it is in a part of Europe that was linked to the Near East at the time via extensive maritime trade networks. Interestingly, however, all of these individuals are genetically very typical of where and when they lived, in that they don't show any obvious recent foreign admixture.

So how did Y-haplogroup J2b get to Europe? My view for now is that it mostly arrived with a few sailors from the Near East during the Early to Middle Bronze Age. This is just about the only plausible theory that I can come up with when looking at this map.


The idea that J2b moved deep into Europe along with the population movements of early pastoralists from the Pontic-Caspian steppe seems to be fairly popular online. However, it currently has no support from ancient DNA. In fact, it's downright contradicted by ancient DNA, because J2b is missing in tens of samples from a wide range of archeological cultures associated with these population movements. If anyone out there disagrees, then please show me a single instance of J2b in samples from the Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, Poltavka, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Catacomb, Srubnaya and other closely related ancient European steppe and steppe-derived cultures.

See also...

Ancient island hopping in the western Mediterranean (Fernandes et al. 2019 preprint)

On Maykop ancestry in Yamnaya

Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but...

79 comments:

Leron said...

One branch might have come from Sumerians west into the “northern sea” as they called it. Another from Jiroft and related cultures migrating northwards towards the steppe.

Davidski said...

@Leron

Another from Jiroft and related cultures migrating northwards towards the steppe.

LOL

Leron said...

Davidski: Turkic speakers in Kazakhstan and north Indians posses notable levels of J2b. They are cut in between by masses of R1a. Coming from Iran, they must have branched out north and south prior to the late Bronze Age migrations.

Davidski said...

@Leron

Quit acting like a donkey and read carefully what I wrote above.

There's no J2b in Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, Poltavka, Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Catacomb, Srubnaya and other closely related ancient European steppe and steppe-derived cultures.

The J2b on the Pontic-Caspian steppe today is from post-Bronze Age expansions that didn't have any real impact on Europe.

Leron said...

Davidski: The steppe is a big place. I'm not saying these other groups were infiltrating into the proper steppe populations but migrating approximately in that direction. I don't believe it happened post-BA, but quite earlier. I'm not going to argue over it because eventually all the new findings and papers will turn all our little theories on their heads.

Andrzejewski said...

@Leron WT...

Nobody even knows what the Sumerian DNA was. Their language was putatively assumed to have sort of links to Sino-Tibetan.

Andrzejewski said...

J2b is very common among Greeks. E1b1b and J2b are over 50% of the Hellenic population Y-DNA markers. I'm surprised that not many Greeks have the "Classical Neolithic Farmer" marker of G2a.

Davidski said...

@Leron

The steppe is a big place.

That's not an argument. You need to learn the basics before posting here and attempting to debate.

Obviously, there's a chain of ancient cultures on the steppe that are related to each other and to present-day Europeans.

That's where J2b has to be if it arrived in Europe from the steppe. But it's not there.

Ebizur said...

Leron said,

"Turkic speakers in Kazakhstan and north Indians posses notable levels of J2b."

On what data source have you based your statement that Turkic speakers in Kazakhstan possess notable levels of J2b?

Ashirbekov et al. (2017) predicted that many present-day Kazakh tribes should contain notable numbers of individuals who belong to J2a-M410 (predicted to be 4.10% of the total), and they also predicted that a majority of the males of the modern Ysty tribe of Kazakhs should belong to J1-M267, but they did not predict that there should be notable numbers of J2b among the Kazakhs. They predicted that only 0.23% (3/1294) of their sampled Kazakhs should belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J-M304(xJ1-M267, J2a-M410).

cf. E. E. Ashirbekov, D. M. Botbaev, A. M. Belkozhaev, A. O. Abayldaev, A. S. Neupokoeva, J. E. Mukhataev, B. Alzhanuly, D. A. Sharafutdinova, D. D. Mukushkina, M. B. Rakhymgozhin, A. K. Khanseitova, S. A. Limborska, N. A. Aytkhozhina, "Distribution of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups of the Kazakh from the South Kazakhstan, Zhambyl, and Almaty Regions." Reports of the National Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Kazakhstan, ISSN 2224-5227, Volume 6, Number 316 (2017), 85 - 95.

Available data from China (cf. Lu Yan 2011, Liu Shuhu et al. 2018, Wang Chuan‐Chao et al. 2019) do not suggest that Muslim populations in that country possess notable levels of J2b Y-DNA, either. The order of frequency of the major J subclades among Turkic- and Sinitic-speaking Central and East Asians appears to be J2a > J1 > J2b, with the last of these being very rare.

Romulus said...

The J2b from the Caucasus says it's from a Catacomb grave, but it's also classified as MBA.

Kudachurt, Russia


• KDC001.A0101.TF1 (BZNK-301/1), kurgan 14, grave 218.1/2, individual 218.1_3. The complex was a catacomb grave with two layers of inhumations. The skeletons were placed with their grave goods in crouched positions. A minimal number of eleven individuals were found, four in the upper (218.1) and seven in the lower level (218.2). Like the majority of burials at Kudachurt the grave contained ceramic vessels, animal remains, few bronze weapons and jewellery. Dating of the animal sample from layer 1: 1953-1776 calBCE (3548±23BP, MAMS-110560); dating of the animal sample from layer 2: 1971-1777 calBCE (3554±23BP, MAMS-110561)


If you look at the J2b page on Y Full you can see it is very interestingly found in Oman, coincidentally where Tholoi are also found.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/

Whatever group was responsible for the spread of Tholoi seems almost certainly to be connected to J2b.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_tomb

Davidski said...

@Romulus

The J2b from the Caucasus says it's from a Catacomb grave, but it's also classified as MBA.

From a catacomb grave (with a little c), but nothing to do with the Catacomb culture.

Mem said...


There's not much to think about. The Caucasian invasion, which started as 4000 BC, spread to Anatolia and then to the Greece and the Mediterranean islands. These invaders must have conquered most of the Balkans at the same time, which explains the distribution of the haplogroup

Davidski said...

@Mem

There's not much to think about. The Caucasian invasion, which started as 4000 BC, spread to Anatolia and then to the Greece and the Mediterranean islands.

I'm not aware of any such Caucasian invasion.

Romulus said...

How can J2b be associated with BA Caucasians if it doesn't have any CHG associated with it in the Nuragic?

Dragos said...

Pending more sampling to elucidate, Davidskis suggestion of maritime traders and merchant seems quite reasonable

Romulus said...

J2b could be a very good candidate for Etruscan

Alaron said...

Just a correction, J2b has a considerable percentage in the Balkans only among Albanians. Balkan Slavs, Greeks, Italians seem to lack it.

Ebizur said...

Vincenza Battaglia, Simona Fornarino, Nadia Al-Zahery, et al., "Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe." European Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 17, 820 – 830.

Albanians (n=55)
8/55 = 14.5% J2b2-M241

FYROM Albanians (n=64)
9/64 = 14.1% J2b2-M241

Greeks (n=92)
2/92 = 2.2% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
4/92 = 4.3% J2b2-M241
2/92 = 2.2% J2b3-M280
8/92 = 8.7% J2b total

Osijek Croats (n=29)
1/29 = 3.4% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
1/29 = 3.4% J2b2-M241
2/29 = 6.9% J2b total

Bosnia Serbs (n=81)
3/81 = 3.7% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
2/81 = 2.5% J2b2-M241
5/81 = 6.2% J2b total

Czechs (n=75)
1/75 = 1.3% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
3/75 = 4.0% J2b2-M241
4/75 = 5.3% J2b total

Macedonian Greeks (n=57)
2/57 = 3.5% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
1/57 = 1.8% J2b2-M241
3/57 = 5.3% J2b total

Bosniacs (n=84)
1/84 = 1.2% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
2/84 = 2.4% J2b2-M241
3/84 = 3.6% J2b total

Croats (n=89)
2/89 = 2.2% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
1/89 = 1.1% J2b2-M241
3/89 = 3.4% J2b total

Ukrainians (n=92)
1/92 = 1.1% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)
2/92 = 2.2% J2b2-M241
3/92 = 3.3% J2b total

Balkarians (n=38)
1/38 = 2.6% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)

Bosnia Croats (n=90)
1/90 = 1.1% J2b-M102(xM241, M280)

Poles (n=99)
1/99 = 1.0% J2b2-M241

Hungarians (n=53)
0/53 J2b-M12/M102

Georgians (n=66)
0/66 J2b-M12/M102

North-East Italians (n=67)
0/67 J2b-M12/M102

Slovenians (n=75)
0/75 J2b-M12/M102

J2b is also found among Greeks and Slavs. However, compared to Albanians, these populations apparently are not descended in such great part (at least patrilineally) from a population in which the proportion belonging to the J-M241 subclade has increased dramatically.

Dragos said...

According to Karachank 2013; Bulgarians have ~4% J2b, ~4% J2a.
From Battaglia; Albanians have ~5% J2a; 14% J2b
Mainland Greeks have reverse ratio: J2a ~ 10 % ; J2b 5-8%

Dragos said...

@ Romulus
“J2b could be a very good candidate for Etruscan”

It’s J2a which is common in central Italy (? so far found in Anatolia BA, one of the Mycenians)

Mem said...

@Davidski

I mean the CHG component, which increased in Anatolia and Aegea in copper and Bronze Age. This increase was very sudden and there were cultural changes where it reaches. This is clearly an indication of an invasion. Some call it Iran-related ancestry, but if there was a direct migration from Iran, basal eurasian component would have increased. In addition, the hatti language (CHG rich Anatolian) had some similarities with Circassian language family.

Alaron said...

According to Albanian Bloodline Project. Kosovo Albanians have ~28% J2b2, from 134 tested people.

Dragos said...

They also have one of the highest rates of E-V13; but such frequencies relate to rapid population growth from a recent founder effect
It’s even notable in autosomes https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090#pone.0105090.s032

Gjenetika said...

First of all, I believe Davidski lacks the phylogenetic understanding of haplogroup J2b so we can answer this question best. The J2b branch in question that's found in MBA Caucasus, MBA Croatia, LBA Nuragic Sardinia, and LBA Armenia is J2b-L283. The J2b branch that's found in ~2200 BC Middle East is J2b-M205. J2b-L283 and J2b-M205 have split from each other ~16,000 years ago and they have never been found together in aDNA, so they have completely different histories, something like R1b-V88 and R1b-M269.

Having said that, J2b-L283 has never been found in Middle Eastern aDNA. Furthermore, it's phylogeny clearly suggests that it has nothing to do with the Middle East. To date the oldest J2b-L283 sample is the one from MBA North Caucuses. Next, it appears in MBA Croatia, packing a considerable amount of Steppe ancestry. The LBA Nuragic samples lacked Steppe ancestry, but they also lacked Iranian or CHG ancestry, so their autosomal profile looks like that of a typical Sardinian, and in this case I don't think it can be used as an indication.

How it arrived to the west Balkans and Italy, is hard to say currently. IMO, a Middle Eastern route is unlikely, but considering MBA North Caucasus and MBA Croatia samples, more likely one around the Black Sea (northern or southern).

Davidski said...

@Gjenetika

Having said that, J2b-L283 has never been found in Middle Eastern aDNA. Furthermore, it's phylogeny clearly suggests that it has nothing to do with the Middle East. To date the oldest J2b-L283 sample is the one from MBA North Caucuses.

North_Caucasus_MBA is a typical Near Eastern sample that has nothing to do with Eastern European steppe populations.

You could check this for yourself if you weren't so lazy.

Next, it appears in MBA Croatia, packing a considerable amount of Steppe ancestry.

Croatia_MBA has a fairly typical amount of steppe ancestry for a Balkan Bronze Age sample, and there's no need to link this to J2b.

In fact, as I pointed out, it's probably no coincidence that the sample in question comes from the Mediterranean coast.

Dita said...

Almost all European J2b members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago. It's too widespread throughout europeans to have been merchants.

It's strange that this is missing from an article about J2b and it's presence in Europe.

Also, the J2b branch that's found in ~2200 BC Middle East is J2b-M205. J2b-L283 and J2b-M205 split from each other ~16,000 years ago (before indo euroepans existed) and have never been found together in aDNA, so they have completely different histories, something like R1b-V88 and R1b-M269.

Also, the J2b2-L283 that was found in a 3500 year old Royal grave on the Illyrian coast, shows that it was present among indo european upper class society.

Likewise we have J2b2-L283 showing up in Apulia, Italy, up the salento coast, and deep into the Po Valley, which matches Illyrian migrations across the adriatic, not sporadic merchants.

Davidski said...

J2b-L283 is from the Near East just like all other major subclades of J2b.

That's why it's present in a typical Near Eastern sample from the Middle Bronze Age North Caucasus.

Folker said...

Arrival in Europe as a whole (Balkans included) could be dated to the IVth millenium BC, so when the first trade routes between Balkans and the Fertil Crescent seem to have appear. Probably not coincidental. At this time, merchants didn’t travelled alone, but in group.
And we know how J2b could have reached the West by Sea from Greece and Western Anatolia.

Ebizur said...

Gioiello said,

"The oldest survived samples of the hg are in Western Europe"

This does not necessarily mean what you want it to mean.

We can say the same thing about R1b1b1-M73, N2-P189.2, O1b-M268, and many other clades.

A few R-M73(xM478) individuals have been found among Western Europeans. However, the extant membership of R-M478 is overwhelmingly comprised of Eastern European, Siberian, and Central Asian males, and, if I am not mistaken, the clade is represented first among samples of ancient DNA in remains associated with the Botai culture of what is now northern Kazakhstan. On balance, the evidence available at present would appear to suggest an origin in Eastern Europe, Siberia, or Central Asia rather than an origin in Western Europe.

A basal member of N-P189.2, currently labeled as N-P189.2* on the YFull tree, has been found in Devon, England. This does not necessarily mean that European N2, most extant representatives of which are Slavs from western parts of the Balkan Peninsula, has spread from the British Isles. It most likely has arrived from somewhere in South Siberia or East Asia at some time within the last five millennia.

The earliest branches off the stem of O1b-M268 have been found among Japanese and Koreans (O-P49*(xPage92)) and among Naxi (O-K18*(xY9032)). A South Korean member of O-P49*(xPage92) has split from O-Page92 as few as two millennia after the MRCA of all O1b-M268 according to the current version of the YFull tree. However, considering the distributions of all subclades of O-M175 comprehensively, it seems likely that O1b-M268 has originated somewhere in China proper rather than in Korea, Japan, or the eastern fringe of Tibet.

Davidski said...

Gioiello doesn't understand any of this and never will.

You can't teach Gioiello new tricks. That's why Gioiello is persona non grata at this blog with extreme prejudice.

ǵenh said...

@ Dragos

J2 (J2b and J2a) is more common in central Italy in the Italic areas rather than in the Etruscan areas.

Davidski said...

J2 (J2b and J2a) is more common in central Italy in the Italic areas rather than in the Etruscan areas.

True story.

Synome said...

Let's make some predictions.

I predict more J2b (including L238) will be found along with no steppe ancestry in Bronze Age Cyprus, BA Aegean, BA Anatolia, and BA Balkans.

I predict it won't be found on the steppe until the late Bronze Age at the earliest.

JuanRivera said...

If I'm correct, in the nMonte datasheets of ALPc_MN there are some J2 samples.

Andrzejewski said...

J2b arrived in Italy because of Greeks and Phoenicians.

Romulus said...

@Andrzejewski said...

"J2b arrived in Italy because of Greeks and Phoenicians."

Wrong for a lot of reasons
-So far only J2a1 in ancient Greeks
-J2b is absent from Modern day Carthage
-J2b in the Nuragic culture predates Magna Grecia or the Phoenician founding of Carthage

Etruscan is the best fit. It doesn't matter if it is less frequent in Tuscany than Southern Italy, Tuscany has had a lot of turn over since the fall of the Western Roman empire.

ur coron said...

@ Davidski, ǵenh
J2 (J2b and J2a) is more common in central Italy in the Italic areas rather than in the Etruscan areas.
True story.

What do you think Etruscan Y-DNA will be like? A. Piazza once predicted Etruscans to have E-M78, G2-P15, J2-M67 and T-M70, do you think this is true?

Slumbery said...

@JuanRivera
"If I'm correct, in the nMonte datasheets of ALPc_MN there are some J2 samples."

Well, not among the ALPc samples that are in the Global25 dataset.

Vadja said...

J2b predates the Etruscans. Etruscans can't be the best fit. These arguments deserve less amateurish approaches.

Vadja said...

@ ur coron
What do you think Etruscan Y-DNA will be like? A. Piazza once predicted Etruscans to have E-M78, G2-P15, J2-M67 and T-M70, do you think this is true?

Piazza's prediction is too vague.

Gjenetika said...

I invite everyone to take a look at the following picture taken from Davidski's blog post, but with added information so we can have a better understanding of haplogroup *J2b-L283* expansion into Balkans/Italy:
http://www.gjenetika.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AncientJ2b-L283.png

Samples 3 and 5, which are J2b-M205, are definitely out of the question when discussing the origin/expansion of J2b-L283. Samples 1 and 2, which are just J2b-M12, can be used as a reference for the likely distant origin in the Mesolithic or Neolithic. So that leaves us with samples 4, 6, 7 & 8 as the J2b-L283 samples, and the ones that should be used to understand its expansion/migration to Balkans/Italy.

J2b-L283 has a TMRCA of ~5400 ybp. Sample 4, as the oldest J2b-L283 sample, comes only ~1500 years after its TMRCA lived, and it had already crossed the Caucasus mountains. So this leaves us with two most plausible paths of its migration into Balkans/Italy. Since it had already crossed the Caucasus mountains, Route 1 is the likeliest, until we get evidence from aDNA that suggests otherwise. Everything else is unsubstantiated wishful thinking on Davidski's part.

He is obviously bringing up these other samples, like J2b-M205, which have nothing to do with J2b-L283 expansion just to imply its "Middle Eastern" or that it came from there. Also, haplogrup J2b is actually defined by M12 or M102. Instead he used an equivalent SNP, L282, which no one has even heard of, just to cause more confusion.

Davidski said...

@Gjenetika

That's very creative of you, but no, there never were any such migrations from the Caucasus to Mediterranean Europe.

The similarity between the J2b in the Caucasus and Southern Europe is collateral, in that J2b-L283 moved from the Near East both into the Caucasus and Europe.

You should try a different hobby.

Romulus said...

Vadja said...
"J2b predates the Etruscans. Etruscans can't be the best fit. These arguments deserve less amateurish approaches."

If J2b is in Croatia 3600 ybp and first detected in Sardinia 3100 ybp, then isn't it only intelligent to assume it arrived in Italy around that timeframe? That correspond to the Proto-Villanova/Polada period. That is when I assume J2b and Etruscan arrives. There are documented historical connections between the Nuragic and the Etruscans, and the Etruscan cities were occupied continuously through the Villanovan period.


Romulus said...

A warrior and mariner people, the ancient Sardinians held flourishing trades with the other Mediterranean peoples. This is shown by numerous remains contained in the nuraghe, such as amber coming from the Baltic Sea, small bronze figures portraying African beasts, Oxhide ingots and weapons from Eastern Mediterranean, Mycenaean ceramics. It has been hypothesized that the ancient Sardinians, or part of them, could be identified with the Sherden, one of the so-called People of the Sea who attacked ancient Egypt and other regions of eastern Mediterranean.[17]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

Other original elements of the Sardinian civilization include the temples known as "Holy wells", dedicated to the cult of the holy waters, the Giants' graves,[18] the Megaron temples, several structures for juridical and leisure functions and numerous bronze statuettes, which were discovered even in Etruscan tombs, suggesting a strong relationships between the two peoples. Another important element of this civilization are the Giants of Mont'e Prama,[19] perhaps the oldest anthropomorphic statues of the western Mediterranean sea.

Seems like there is a lot of support for a common origin of Nuragic, Etruscan, and the Sherden in J2b. The connection between the J2b in the Caananite and the Egytian records of the Sea Peoples are particularly interesting. The Greeks said the Etruscans came from the kingdom of Lydia.

Arza said...

@ Sam - thing for you:

Mitochondrial DNA variability of the Polish population
Jarczak et al. 2019

Abstract

The aim of the present study was to define the mtDNA variability of Polish population and to visualize the genetic relations between Poles. For the first time, the study of Polish population was conducted on such a large number of individuals (5852) representing administrative units of both levels of local administration in Poland (voivodeships and counties). Additionally, clustering was used as a method of population subdivision. Performed genetic analysis, included FST, MDS plot, AMOVA and SAMOVA. Haplogroups were classified and their geographical distribution was visualized using surface interpolation maps. Results of the present study showed that Poles are characterized by the main West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups. Furthermore, the level of differentiation within the Polish population was quite low but the existing genetic differences could be explained well with geographic distances. This may lead to a conclusion that Poles can be considered as genetically homogenous but with slight differences, highlighted at the regional level. Some patterns of variability were observed and could be explained by the history of demographic processes in Poland such as resettlements and migrations of women or relatively weaker urbanisation and higher rural population retention of some regions.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-019-0381-x

JuanRivera said...

Checked again ALPc_MN, the J2 was actually mtDNA. Now here's one interesting sample in the datasheets of nMonte: Malak_Preslavets, 5600 BCE Bulgaria, Y-DNA T1a1.

Steven said...

It has pretty high frequencies in Cyprus, so maybe it came from the Levant.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Arza, Thx. I'm happy the authors didn't make baseless claims like most mtDNA studies do.

Steven said...

We still don't know how E-V13 got to the Balkans either...is it possible that they migrated along side on another?

Gjenetika said...

@Steven,

That would be J2b1-M205 having high frequency in Cyprus, the one found in Levantine aDNA. The Balkan/Italian samples in question belong to a completely different J2b branch, that's J2b2a1-L283 which split from J2b1-M205 ~16,0000 ybp. Please read my two previous posts, so you can understand these better.

Dragos said...

@ Vadja
Your demographic inferences need revisiting .
From Müller (who you quote)- https://imgur.com/6reEoyl
(Filled square -Balkans; open circle - Central Europe)
Therefore the modest steppe impact in SEE is not a demographic bias, but must have a different basis.
This error keeps being echoed on blogs

Davidski said...

@Steven

We still don't know how E-V13 got to the Balkans either...is it possible that they migrated along side on another?

Yes, it's very likely that the major expansions of E-V13, J-L283 and J-M205 are associated with the expansions of maritime peoples throughout the Mediterranean Sea during the Bronze Age.

So like I said, J-L283 arrived in Europe from the Near East, probably from Anatolia, and E-V13 may have as well.

Dragos said...

@ Davidski

Hg E-V13 is still quite perplexing. IIRC, the closest ancestor relate to Iberomaurisian, not Natufian. It then appears in a few EEF samples, from Spain to Ukraine, then E-V13 itself appears to have undergone a Bronze Age exapnsion. These factors, along with its rarity in the Near East, makes a recent Anatolian expansion difficult

Bob Floy said...

@Dave

Are you not considering the Phoenicians as a good candidate for bringing all this J2b to Europe?

JuanRivera said...

Is it me or is now R divided between R* (Mal'ta's R) and R-Y482 in Yfull?

Davidski said...

@Bob Floy

Are you not considering the Phoenicians as a good candidate for bringing all this J2b to Europe?

They're probably too late in the game, considering that the Croatia_MBA sample might be older than their first major expansions across the Mediterranean.

Bob Floy said...

Luwians/Trojans(if they didn't carry much steppe ancestry)?
Lol, probably not.

Aram said...

J2b2a-L283 has presence in Russia. Especially in South Ural
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y12000/
But the TMRCA of those Russian J2b-s is low.
Nevertheless this mean that at some point we will see J2b2 in Steppe, But when and in what context is impossible to predict.
J2b was also found in a Merovingian burial site.
My overall impression is that we will see J2b2 in main Italy also.

https://j2-m172.info/2015/04/three-j2-found-at-merovingian-buriel-site-roman-frankish-transitional-period/

Alaron said...

E-V13 seems to have different history from J2b2. It had a major Bronze Age expansion, but only specific subclades.

Simon_W said...

What regards the Etruscans, I think we have to recall the information provided by Ryukendo from Hannah Moots' upcoming paper. There were about 8 individuals dated to the period between 700 and 20 BC. And the large majority of samples was from Lazio. 60% of them, or in absolute numbers about 5, were North Italian-like and the rest, 40%, or about 3, were South Italian/Sicilian-like. But none were Central Italian-like. Which means that they hadn't thoroughly mixed yet. This raises the question if these South Italian/Sicilian-like individuals had anything to do with the Etruscans, because, after all, the northern half of Lazio, North of the Tiber, was part of Etruria. Or if they were simply migrants from Southern Italy who had migrated North in the course of the Roman unification of Italy.

But then there has already been this paper by Avila-Arcos et al. 2014:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2014/07/24/007419.full.pdf

They had sequenced three verified Etruscans from about 500 BC:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rfyRUeQKSE/VUp1FtC48DI/AAAAAAAAKE0/aprJv89-94k/s1600/etruscans.jpg

I think this PCA plot can be interpreted in the way that two of the Etruscans fall roughly into the NItaly6 cluster from the Raveane et al. 2018 preprint and the third one could belong to the more extreme individuals of the cluster NItaly1, but compare for yourself:
https://justpaste.it/1ufkm

In any case they look like extreme North Italians to me.

Sure there's the theory that the Etruscans were from the Aegean, or more specifically from Lydia. But since wine and olives had been grown in Greece since the 3rd millennium BC, but no earlier than the 7th, late 8th century BC in Etruria, it would follow that there cannot have been important Aegean migrations to Etruria prior to this date. Because it's unlikely that the migrants would give up their knowledge about these products. So at best we could speculate that the Etruscans immigrated during the change from Villanovan to Orientalizing Etruscan, starting around 720 BC. This is what some people indeed suggest. A problem for this theory is that the Villanovan culture had an extremely good overlap with the later Etruscan culture, hardly coincidental. And the ancient autosomal DNA evidence known so far doesn't support an Aegean origin of the Etruscans at all.

So IMHO a local central Italian origin of the Etruscans is more likely, and we will probably see something similar to the situation in Iberia, where IEs and non-IEs didn't differ much in steppe ancestry and overall DNA. Etruscans and Italics were probably both North Italian-like, until they spread to Southern Italy and mixed with the Anatolia-BA enriched locals.


Simon_W said...

Oh, and what's also in that upcoming Moots' paper, according to Ryukendo, is that central Italy in the EBA was still Sardinian-like up to 1700 BC.

Gjenetika said...

@Arame,

The J2b2a-L283 Russia/Tatar Cluster is very young and downstream of Z597>Z2507>>Z631. So this one most definitely migrated from Balkans or Central Europe sometime in the last 2000 years.

However, if you look at J-M241 Project on FTDNA below, there is a Russian, kit 371919, who has SNP tested as L283+ and Z628- aka Z597-. Furthermore, there is an Armenian from Georgia, kit 202510, who has tested L283+ and Z1296-. His STRs are consistent that he is somewhere in between L283 and Z2507. So we have at least two examples from ancient "Steppe" region that belong to clades upstream of MBA Croatia or "early" J2b2a-L283.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

Davidski said...

@Gjenetika

You're clutching at straws. Georgia is south of the Greater Caucasus. Not part of any steppe region.

AWood said...

How many skeletons from Yamnaya, CWC, and Bell Beaker do we have now? I've lost count but I fail to see any support for a non-R1, Q, or N lineage in western Russia. It was only until the late Bronze or Iron age that the Middle Eastern derive J lineages made an impact in the north. J2 in northern Europe, be it A or B came with Neolithic farmers, and expansions linked to Romans or Greeks. No evidence it was among Celtic or Germanic people, and even today, represents a miniscule amount easily linked to the aformentioned groups.

batman said...

Regarding the Merovingian kurgans with y-dna J2:
Phoenician nobility from Roman time, rising to power in northern Europe during the end of Roman time - to flourish after the migration time, as the noble heads of the "Franco-Romans" and thye new Roman empire:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35104-Ydna-merovingians-e-Charlemagne?p=530306&viewfull=1#post530306

Gjenetika said...

@Davidski,

The same haplotype as kit 202510, has also appeared in Krasnodar, Russia, which is firmly in the "Steppe" region, from the the following study: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-017-1770-2

You can check this for yourself, but I guess you're not into Y haplotype analysis, as you can't even distinguish the main J2b branches ;)

However, what's interesting is these 'basal' J2b2a-L283 haplotypes seem to appear only among Armenians in that region, whether it's Krasnodar, Don region, or Georgia. Obviously, L283 currently is not strong among Armenians at all, which would suggest it was a minor lineage during EBA. It seems it proliferated in the Balkans during the BA as can be seen by starlike expansion of J-Z597, TMRCA 4400 ybp, where the BA Croatia belonged as well.

olga said...


A very interesting map of J2b-L283

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/J2b-L283

Davidski said...

@Olga

The map that you linked shows 0 hits. That is, there's not a single instance of J2b-L283 on the map.

You have to go back to J2b to see anything. But it's a rather poor visualization, because it doesn't show frequencies.

https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/J2b

olga said...


@ Davidski

Sorry. It appeared in an enlarged presentation missing the bottom line where the hits were showed.

David said...

Hello, I have not deep knowledge about genetics, I am J2b2 Z597, and both theories for L283 (Indo-European and Mediterranean traders) are exciting, but there is one thing I can not understand about Mediterranean traders. If they were traders and sailors, why L283 is only present in the north side of the Mediterranean sea (Europe) and not in the south part (North Africa). Just curious. Thanks for your thoughts and time.

Gjenetika said...

@David, exactly!!

Gjenetika said...

^ Hence the reason the Mediterranean trader theory doesn't make much sense.

Davidski said...

Well, there's J2b in Bronze Age samples from the European part of the Mediterranean coastline. So it was definitely there.

You can wonder why it seemingly didn't cross over into North Africa, but you can't claim that it wasn't present in Mediterranean Europe.

Gjenetika said...

Well, which "J2b" are you talking about? It seems you repeatedly fail to realize that the relationship between J2b branches is almost as old as old as the one of R1a and R1b, so you can't lump all J2b together when talking about the Neolithic period and onwards.

There is two main J2b branches:

• The J2b branch that can be linked to Mediterranean traders is J2b1-M205, which in aDNA has been found in the Levant and North Africa, while J2b2-L283 in aDNA has only been found in Europe and LBA Armenia, so clearly different histories. Modern distribution suggests exactly the same as can be seen: https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/10/J2b-M102-Project-2009_edit-2015.png

Davidski said...

I fail to see your point, because...

- the most common R1a and R1b subclades today (R1a-M417 and R1b-M269) are both from the Pontic-Caspian steppe, so why can't the most common J2b subclades be from more or less the same source?

- J2b, never mind the subclades, is conspicuous by its presence in the European ancient DNA record at coastal sites in Sardnina, Croatia, England and Estonia, and its paucity in more inland areas, especially in the tens of samples from the Eneolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age Pontic-Caspian steppe.

You'll have to deal with this, at least for the time being, but I don't see the situation changing when more samples from the Pontic-Caspian steppe come in.

Gjenetika said...

The J2b2-L283 from MBA North Caucasus was far from any Mediterranean coast. Point is, the Mediterranean trader theory brought by you is the least likeliest possibility of L283's expansion into Europe. For the rest, we'll have to wait and see for more aDNA..

Davidski said...

The J2b2-L283 in the MBA North Caucasus dosn't mean much because the sample isn't from the steppe and in fact it has a typically Near Eastern genetic structure.

If anything, it supports my theory that J2b spread into Europe in people of Near Eastern origin.

Gjenetika said...

"The J2b2-L283 in the MBA North Caucasus dosn't mean much because the sample isn't from the steppe and in fact it has a typically Near Eastern genetic structure."

Still, the oldest J2b2-L283 in aDNA was geographically much closer to the Steppe, if not in the "Steppe" itself, and far away from the Eastern Mediterranean or the Levant ;)

Davidski said...

That's great. I'm happy for you.

But don't get too obsessed with putting the expansion of J2b2-L283 on the steppe, because you'll end up with a severe case of cognitive dissonance, like a whole bunch of fools online, if the evidence starts mounting against your theory.