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Sunday, April 5, 2020

Business almost as usual


I've just updated my dataset and Global25 datasheets with a wide variety of ancient and present-day samples. The datasheets are located at the same links as always here. The individuals that have been added or have had their coordinates updated are listed in the text file here.

Despite the COVID-19 storm raging all around us, I plan to keep blogging and adding new samples to my dataset and the Global25 as they become available. However, please note that I won't be offering Global25 coordinates to the general public until July.

Below is a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) based on Global25 data produced with the Vahaduo Global25 Views online tool.

On the plot I've highlighted several new samples that I plan to focus on in a lot of detail in upcoming blog posts. They include ROU_BA:GLAV_14_Co from what is now Romania belonging to Y-haplogroup R1a-Z93 and, remarkably, dating to 3,500-3,000 BCE, as well as two individuals from what is now Mongolia associated with the Afanasievo culture belonging to the somewhat unexpected Y-haplogroups J1 and R1b-L51.

I've also updated my PCA of ancient West Eurasian genetic variation, which is based directly on genotype data, with many of the same new samples. The relevant datasheet is available here. The individuals that have been added or have had their coordinates updated are listed in the text file here.


See also...

Avalon vs Valhalla revisited

520 comments:

1 – 200 of 520   Newer›   Newest»
Davidski said...

Please let me know if you spot any errors in the new datasheets.

Michalis Moriopoulos said...

Very nice. This is quite a big update for the East Asian side of the aisle.

As far as errors go:
This isn't a new sample, but isn't Rise97 ("DNK_LN") actually from southern Sweden?

Urki said...

Great job. Thank you

Davidski said...

@Michalis

As far as errors go: This isn't a new sample, but isn't Rise97 ("DNK_LN") actually from southern Sweden?

Yep, fixed.

Gaska said...

Interesting times await us because there are three ancient samples that can cause an earthquake in our understanding of population movements during the European Neolithic/Chalcolithic.

1- Smyadovo-I2181 (4.497 BC) Mit Hap-Hv15- It is definitely R1b-M269 with markers at P297 level (CTS9018) and M269 level (PF6452) and what is more important, is negative for all markers downstream R1a and Z2103-Furthermore this case serves to give relevance to ATP3 in Iberia with markers downstream P297 and M269 (PF6518)-So we have R1b-M269 in the Balkans a millennium before Afanasievo and a millennium before the unpublished M269 in Volosovo (which according to my friends are dated around 3,000 BC???)- Everything seems to indicate a movement of R1b-M269 from Western Europe to Eastern Europe, just the opposite of what has been defending the Kurgan Theory for over 10 years. Smyadovo has a little steppe ancestry which is normal because we are in the contact area between the steppes and mainland Europe, belonged to the Gumelnita culture and Its cultural and genetic links (Mit haps) with Anatolia suggest that R1b-M269 does not originate in the steppes.

2- ROU_BA:GLAV_14_Co (3.250 BC)-Makes Alexandria's sample totally irrelevant confirming in my opinion its erroneous dating, makes Yamnaya culture totally irrelevant in its relationship with R1a, explain a R1a movement towards the west long before the CWC and definitely unlink R1a from R1b-L51 in its "hypothetical" westward movement within the CWC- Will be interesting to hear the opinions from linguistic experts about the linguistic implications of R1a in Romania (3.500-3.000 BC)

3-I6222-R1b-L151 (3.117 BC)- It is the most surprising thing I have seen in genetics in recent years because it seems to be linked to the Afanasievo culture in Mongolia, beyond the Altai mountains, that is, in Central / East Asia- Until now, Afanasievo, like Yamnaya, was overwhelmingly Z2103 and suddenly a case of L151 appears dated in 3.117 BC- The genetic analysis was done on a different individual from the sample used to produce the direct 14C date, but it seems that the assignment of the haplogroup is correct, so we will have to find explanations for this situation. I suppose the Chinese will say that R1b-L151 / P311 originates from East Asia (and they certainly would have reason to do so because this sample is by far the oldest case of our lineage found to date), Kurganists will say that they have finally found a link between Afanasievo and Yamnaya (although in any case we would have to talk about Repin / Pre-Yamnaya), and I can only think that this case can demonstrate that the similarities between the Chemurchek culture and the Middle and Late Neolithic of France are not a mere coincidence. Such a close similarity between the cultural phenomena, separated by the distance of over 6,500 kilometers, can only be explained by a migration from the west of Europe to the Mongolian Altai (Mit haps of those Mongolian samples are typical of Whgs and Anatolian farmers, they have nothing to do with Yamnaya)-Evidently Afanasievo and R1b-L151 disappeared from Asia without leaving a genetic and linguistic trace, although some geneticists are still determined to prove otherwise.

Jatt_Scythian said...

What's a Kurganist? Somebody who believes in the truth rather than thinking the world revolves around Western Europe (or India for that matter)>

Gaska said...

No, a Kurganist is comparable to a Levantinist or an Indian or Asian nationalist. Someone who is unable to understand that R1b-L754/P297/M296 are lineages linked to the WHgs at least since Epigravetian and that our lineage has nothing to do with the steppes.A Kurganist is able to ignore Villabruna, Iboussieres, ATP3, Vk531, Smyadovo, the Narva culture, and the Balkans-WHGs, all of them R1b to try to impose a fairy tale because they would like to think that they are descendants of a superior race of blond horsemen from the steppes. Because of the Kurganists' obsession with taking R1b to the steppes, there are now people who say that the Basques and the rest of Western Europeans are descended from the Mongols or the Iranians when the truth is that it is a clearly western marker. We do not like the "swarthy riders" of the Yamnaya culture or being related to Genghis Khan, we are simply Europeans and our paternal lineage has been on this land for thousands of years-

Jatt_Scythian said...

Everything that describes Levantinists etc definitely describes dueled Western Europeans such as yourself. Its hilarious how blind you care.

You're going to have to get over it. Your lineage is nothing special. It came from the steppe. Western Europeans aren't some chosen people who are completely native to the land they now occupy. And please explain the migration of Z2103+ east then. You can't.

Jatt_Scythian said...

Everything that describes Levantinists etc definitely describes duluded Western Europeans such as yourself. Its hilarious how blind you are.

You're going to have to get over it. Your lineage is nothing special. It came from the steppe. Western Europeans aren't some chosen people who are completely native to the land they now occupy. And please explain the migration of Z2103+ east then. You can't.

epoch said...

@David

"Please let me know if you spot any errors in the new datasheets."

Utterly trivial, but BEL_Loschbour is named wrongly. Loschbour is a place in Luxembourg, not Belgium. Even as Belgium has a province called Luxembourg.

Lest you wonder, it took me two instead of one "grep"...

epoch said...

@Gaska

That same Smyadovo cemetary is where the oldest steppe admixture in the Balkans is found.

Gaska said...

@Epoch

Yeah, two directly dated individuals from southeastern Europe, one (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dated to 4711-4550 BCE and one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dated to 4550-4450 BCE, present earlier evidence of steppe-related ancestry. These findings push back the first evidence of this ancestry far West in Europe by almost 2,000 years-Eastern Europe as an old genetic contact zone between locals and incoming steppe people, which is supported by two other early dating specimens from Ukraine (Alexandria and Dereivka) and 4 females from Moldavian CTC that also showed mixtures of steppe- and Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry-

Neolithic samples from the Peloponnese also had ancestry related to Caucasus hunter-gatherers, suggesting that this ancestry did not come to Europe only via migrations from the steppe, but also independently, perhaps reflecting ancestry from different Anatolian source populations.

However, these samples challenges a previously published scenario of Yamnaya horsemen massively migrating in war into central Europe. Harvardians have been telling us for years that the first evidence of the stppe ancestry in central europe was the CWC (2,900 BC) and that it spread to western europe exclusively by the R1b-M269 lineage, when we have that marker in the Gumelnite culture 2,000 years earlier that BB culture existed. They couldn't be more wrong


Ric Hern said...

@ Gaska

Ever heard of the Suvorovo Culture ?

ph2ter said...

Thank you for this.
There is no Danish average in the spreadsheet.

Rob said...

@ Dave


Olljso arent “megalithic”., but megalithic reuse or Nordic BA

Rob said...

@ Gaska

''Yeah, two directly dated individuals from southeastern Europe, one (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dated to 4711-4550 BCE and one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dated to 4550-4450 BCE, present earlier evidence of steppe-related ancestry. These findings push back the first evidence of this ancestry far West in Europe by almost 2,000 years-Eastern Europe as an old genetic contact zone between locals and incoming steppe people, which is supported by two other early dating specimens from Ukraine (Alexandria and Dereivka) and 4 females from Moldavian CTC that also showed mixtures of steppe- and Anatolian Neolithic-related ancestry-''

Yeah but thats southeastern / south of Eastern Europe. Different scenario to central/north and western Europe.

Davidski said...

@epoch

Utterly trivial, but BEL_Loschbour is named wrongly. Loschbour is a place in Luxembourg, not Belgium. Even as Belgium has a province called Luxembourg.

Right you are. Fixed.

Davidski said...

@Rob

I changed it to SWE_Olljso_BA.

Angantyr said...

@Davidski

The name of the site is actually "Öllsjö".

I really don't understand how they managed to mess up the name and write "Ölljsö" a number of times in the Malmström et al. 2019 paper, as most of the authors are Swedish and "Ölljsö" is not a possible spelling of a Swedish word...

Davidski said...

@Angantyr

The name of the site is actually "Öllsjö".

Yep, fixed. Minus the umlauts though, just in case they cause text compatibility issues with some programs.

Gaska said...

@Rob

The Balkan scenario cannot be very different from that of the rest of Europe. First because you have all that contact area full of R1b-P297 and second because the Gumelnita-Karanovo culture is related to the Boian culture and this, with the LBK- We have seen that the Villabruna cluster (and associated Mesolithic R1b-M343 lineages found from west to east Europe) might be the representatives of the expansion of West Hunter-Gatherer ancestry, displacing or admixing with the existing population of Western Europe. On the other hand, hunter-gatherers from the Iron Gates show WHG (78%), EHG (11%) and AHG (11%), Mesolithic and Early Neolithic individuals (Latvia_HG) associated with the Kunda and Narva cultures have ancestry intermediate between WHG (~70%) and EHG (~30%), the Scandinavian HGs are a mixture of EHGs and WHGs, and the key component of steppe DNA-EHG (much more important than CHG) is ANE + WHG (maybe 40% WHG?)-So R1b-M343 lineages may have thus brought WHG ancestry to the north Pontic steppe during the Mesolithic,

Targamos the Based, son of Kavkasos son of CHG son of said...

@Gaska
schizo, Eastern Europe was a cline of ANE ancestry, so ANE Y-DNA markers could have very simply spread all the way to Western Europe. If Karelia had Satsurblia-related J1 clade, then ANE Y-DNA being present in WHG is even less of an anomaly.

Richard Rocca said...

@David, thanks for all you do.

One question: did the Moroccan samples get dropped? They are important to Iberian Bell Beaker, Roman, etc. models.

Gaska said...

@Targamos etc...besides long your name seems schizo

Villabruna cluster (remember R1b-L754/C1a2/I2a1b) is much older in Western Europe than previously thought-Prof. Villalba-Mouco-“We show that all Iberian HGs, including the oldest (19.000 year old individual from el Mirón) carry dual ancestry from both Villabruna and the Magdalenian related individuals” So, ANE reached western Europe during Gravettian-

El Mirón (17.000 AC)-ANE (7,11%), ASE (5,83%), WHG-UHG (77,09%), East-Eurasian (5,28%), West-African (1,48%), East African (3,21%).

Villabruna- (12.105 AC)-ANE (7,16%), ASE (0,52%), WHG-UHG (89,88%), East-Eurasian (0,97%), West-African (0,36%), East African (1,12%)

Then we already have a small percentage of ANE in all WHgs (Iberia, France, Italy, Scandinavia Germany, Balkans), Y-Chromosome-R (ANE marker) could enter mainland Europe during the Gravettian, or Solutrean (France-Spain)-This means that the genetic relationship between all European hunter-gatherers, regardless of what we call them (WHgs, EHgs, SHgs, Iron Gates Hgs) is quite important, although obviously each individual will have their peculiar and unique autosomal composition. This genetic relationship is also evident between the Anatolian Hgs and WHgs that even share C1a2 as a primary marker

We also have a good percentage of WHgs ancestry in the EHGs (Karelia etc), which may mean that there were migrations/contacts between the Whgs and EHGs in the contact zone during the Mesolithic or Neolithic period - that is, the first Paleolithic migration in the east-west direction and the second Neolithic migration in the west-east direction-

@All-My friends tell me that the rumors of L51 in various European cultures are true, it does not seem that this marker can be associated with any culture exclusively-The secrets are difficult to keep and surely someone on this blog has heard something about it-

Moesan said...

when using old "pops" as references it's always uneasy to separate new changes in ancestry, due to recent moves and admixtures, from ancient differences in ancestry obtained by isolation by distance; we know the Hg's of allover great western Eurasia shared a majority of common ancestors, primarily and also thanks to old moves. So only big enough ruptures can tell us something available, I think.
It's not hazard if we see more and more SAA or archaic SE Asia components as we go deeper in past.
@Gaska: todate, based on what we have, I doubt R1b-L51 was common in far Western Europe since it's first apparition. I "see" it (my cristal bowl) around Central-East Europe at first. Maybe not linked by force to Steppics at first, left aside the linguistic question (PIE).
Future 'll tell us. SO many scenarii could have been at work.

Davidski said...

@Richard Rocca

You'll find the ancient Moroccan samples under the MAR prefix.

JuanRivera said...

Anything on the Murzikhinsky transitional foragers? Wonder what's their place in the EHG clade.

JuanRivera said...

What's the specific lineage (SNPs) of the Afanasievo J1?

Hodo Scariti said...

@ Gaska

"My friends tell me that the rumors of L51 in various European cultures are true, it does not seem that this marker can be associated with any culture exclusively-The secrets are difficult to keep and surely someone on this blog has heard something about it"

And is it possible, by grace, to have some hints? You know... casting the rock and hiding the hand in the same time isn't that funny...

Samuel Andrews said...

@Hodo, There's one published R1b L52 from Corded Ware in Germany. Also Davidski says there's unpublished R1b L151 in Corded Ware Poland.

Tauber ALT_4, 2570-2458 calBC
Link to study.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2019/10/09/science.aax6219

The most popular theory on this blog is that Bell Beaker and its R1b L151 are of Corded Ware origin. Specifically, we think the Rhine/Germany/Netherlands Corded Ware variant called Single Grave is the ancestor of Bell Beaker.

Qarlos said...

@Davidski

- Iberia_Northwest_Meso:I0843 (La Braña 2) is missing on this version

- bal004 and lai001 appear as Scotland_Megalithic but I think they are SWE_Megalithic_Ansarve

Hodo Scariti said...

@ Samuel Andrews

Thanks, I knew that.

But Gaska spoke about cultures... so I understood more than only one (i.e. Corded Ware).

Davidski said...

@Qarlos

bal004 and lai001 are from Balintore and Lairo, Scotland. See here...

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/19/9469

Iberia_Northwest_Meso:I0843 was producing some strange results compared to the other Iberian HG samples. I need to look into that.

Davidski said...

@Hodo Scariti

Apparently there are some unpublished instances of early L51 and P312 in LNBA samples from Bohemia, Romania and Ukraine.

But they're all associated with steppe or steppe-derived populations, so I don't know what Gaska hopes to gain from these samples when they're published?

Qarlos said...

@Davidski

OK, so the mistake was on the Reich Lab samples info, thank you.

I think that La Braña samples (1 and 2) were more Loschbour-like than the new northwest samples, but I'm not sure, I haven't looked at them seen the first time I heard about those samples.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski,"Apparently there are some unpublished instances of early L51 and P312 in LNBA samples from Bohemia, Romania and Ukraine"

What do you mean by LNBA? Older than Bell Beaker?

Urki said...

The spatiotemporal spread of human migrations
during the European Holocene
Fernando Racimoa,1 , Jessie Woodbridgeb
, Ralph M. Fyfeb
, Martin Sikoraa
, Karl-Goran Sj ¨ ogren ¨
c
,
Kristian Kristiansenc
, and Marc Vander Lindend

Urki said...

This paper looks interesting. Has anyone read it?

Urki said...

Freely available in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.


El bicho no pasará¡¡¡

Davidski said...

@Samuel Andrews

Yes, pre-Bell Beaker.

Gaska said...


@Arza so far there is no R1b-L51/312 in the Czech CWCs, the only case is in Germany and it is archaeologically very doubtful. Which one is Z2105? Have you found it on the CWC or on the BBC? I have seen BBs-Z2103 in Hungary and Poland not in the Czech Republic.

@I am talking about several cases of L51 in several different cultures 700-800 years before the CWC and the BBc (other samples belong to Chalcolithic) All the people I have spoken to, comment on it, and I hope it does not happen as with M269 in Volosovo and many other jobs for which we have been waiting for more than a year. There seems to be no point in pretending that L51 is linked exclusively to a certain culture, and it may be that it was scattered over wide areas of central and eastern Europe long before the arrival of any steppe migration.Smyadovo is an example of a Neolithic culture related to "Old Europe" with M269, his descendants had 1,000 years to disperse throughout the Balkans, and the rest of Europe.

Davidski said...

@Gaska

Ask your contacts about P312 in Czech CWC. They should know something about it.

Jatt_Scythian said...

@Davidski

When are we going to learn more about Z93 samples from Usatovo and the Volga steppes?

Ric Hern said...

@ Gaska

All well within reach of the Suvorovo Culture dates...

Sardinian said...

Hi, where I can find information about POL-BRK N:N27?

Arza said...

@ Sardinian

POL_BKG_N:N27?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33067-w

@ Davidski

HUN_BA_o:SZ1 has been redated to:

5752 SZ1.SG SZ1 SZ1 petrous 2018 AmorimNatureCommunications2018 AmorimNatureCommunications2018 1250 600-800 CE Hungary_AvarPeriod.SG Szólád Hungary 46.28333333 17.85 Shotgun .. 9.279219 1181117 M R1a1a1b2a .. J1b .. .. .. .. -0.000225 -0.076397333 [0,0.006] half .. PASS (literature)

Arza said...

@ Gaska
Let's say it's a rumour.

Davidski said...

@Arza

HUN_BA_o:SZ1 has been redated to:

5752 SZ1.SG SZ1 SZ1 petrous 2018 AmorimNatureCommunications2018 AmorimNatureCommunications2018 1250 600-800 CE Hungary_AvarPeriod.SG Szólád Hungary


Thanks, fixed.

Btw, I'm not aware of any Z2105 in Corded Ware samples. Those that are R1b are likely to be L51/P312.

But of course there is pre-Beaker Z2105 in the Carpathian Basin, due to the presence of Yamnaya there.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski, Any news on when Harvard(?) will publish new paper on Chalcolithic Romania, Bulgaira, Ukraine will be published?

Davidski said...

@Samuel

I don't have a clue. You need to e-mail the people there are ask them.

But anyway, it seems to me that there are major papers on several topics being put together, including:

- a time transect of what is now Moldova and surrounds

- a time transect of the Aegean region

- the Copper Age and Early Bronze Age in Anatolia and surrounds

FrankN said...

I wouldn't be surprised if R1b-L51 popped up in those Wartberg Culture samples analysed last autumn. After all, R1b1 (unsure down to which subclade it has been determined) has been found at Blätterhöhle. Culturally and time-wise, Blätterhöhle represents the Michelsberg-Wartberg transition (the westernmost Wartberg megalithic grave, Soest-Osttönnen, lies some 45 km ENE of the Blätterhöhle).

Geographically, a L51 split into subclades such as U106 and P312 somewhere near to the Rhine makes quite some sense, especially if one regards the "import" into Iberia as related to BB and ultimately Rhenish Single Grave. Moreover, the transition from hunter-pastoralists to farmers around 3,500 BC, and the apparent demographic and cultural changes caused by the plague around 2,800 BC in Westphalia, would have provided ideal backgrounds for the star-like expansion under L51.

L51 presence in the Wartberg Culture wouldn't neccesarily imply that it was "indigenous" to the area. We are (now as then) talking about a transit region, with cultural links to the west (SOM culture, flint import from Rijkholt and beyond), the south (Goldberg III in Bavaria), and the NE (Bernburg/GAC). The GAC sphere reached as far eastwards as Serteya (Smolensk Oblast) on the Upper Dvina, which controlled the ancient (Mesolithic) amber trade route from the Baltic Sea to the Upper Volga (Moscow area).

OTOH, the HG element in Blätterhöhle, and most likely also the newer Wartberg samples, seems to have more in common with Hungarian_HGs than with WHG from west of the Rhine (e.g. Löschbaur). The Laacher See eruption made most lands between Rhine and Elbe uninhabitable for quite some time, and there seems to be indication that most of the post-younger Dryas repopulation of Central Europe (e.g. Ahrensburgian) originated from the Pannonian Basin via Moravia and Bohemia. As such, Villabruna-related R1b might have been quite common among HGs in the Elbe, Oder and Vistula basins.
So far, we don't have any Mesolithic aDNA from east of the Rhine/north of the Alps/Carpathians aside from the Baltics (Narva/Kunda) that can confirm or refute such speculation.

Davidski said...

@FrankN

I wouldn't be surprised if R1b-L51 popped up in those Wartberg Culture samples analysed last autumn.

I'd be very surprised, because it's not in those samples nor in any samples closely related to them.

FrankN said...

@Dave: So you have received information on the Wartberg yDNA? Last time I checked (already some time ago) I noted that the pre-print didn't contain SupMats with yDNA information, and that you had enquired on it in a comment.

Would you mind providing some information (or alternatively a link) here?

In general, I am not emotionally invested in the whole R1b story. I thought that Wartberg could have been a plausible option - if it proves out to be not, I am equally fine with such outcome.

Btw: I think that that Wartberg paper - even though it has already been published some months ago - deserves a blog post on its own. Not only for the aDNA in general - a culture with nearly 50% WHG ancestry existing as late as 3,000 BC in Central Europe!
Equally (possibly at the moment even more) interesting is the fact that those Wartberg people (and maybe most of non-Steppe MN populations) had an immune system completely different from modern Central Europeans, geared almost exclusively to anti-viral (Influenza) defense. Modern (Central) Europeans, in contrast, have focused their immune defense against bacteria, and the bacteria causing that shift was in all likelyhood Yersinia (pestis/tuberculosis). Great: Now we (Europeans) are well equipped to withstand the Black Death, Justinian Plague and whatever waves came before, but pretty vulnerable to Corona Viruses (or the Spanish Flu, for that matter).

If you don't find that issue interesting or recent enough for a post, I'll probably will over the coming weeks publish one over at Alberto's site. If so, I hope you don't mind, and will provide comments there.

Gaska said...

@FrankN-

I think almost all of Niedertiefenbach's men are I2a but I don't know if there are any left to check. Niedertiefenbach plots near Blatterhole, Iberian BBs, Iberia-Chalcolithic Iberia N, Iberia MN, Baalberge MN and Globular Anphora-Regarding Blatterhole, if you refer to I1565/I1563, I think they are both R1b-V88 but I don't know if you know of any other case- But in general, you are right in what you are saying, because in the Gumelnita-Karanovo VI culture there is also V88 and we also have M269. We also have a dubious case of R1b in Brunn2 (LBK) ATP3 and VK531 (Norway) so I think sooner or later we will be able to find reliable cases of M269/L51 in various Central European and Balkan cultures from 3,500 BC, as my contacts have told me. I believe that Germany is the key not only for having found P312 in Osterhofen, but also for the Kromsdorf BBC deposit (R1b-M343, possibly L51 dated in 2,612 BC)

@Ric Hern-

Regarding Suvorovo culture, it is evident that it was a first expansion related to Khvalynsk in the lower Danube with the first steppe deposits dated in 4,400 BC. However I recommend reading Stefan Chohadzhiev's paper on the Smyadovo site because he clearly qualifies it as belonging to the Gumelnite/Karanovo culture, nothing to do with Suvorovo. Furthermore, the dating of Smyadovo-I2181 predates the oldest sites of the Suvorovo culture in the region. So for me, unless someone proves otherwise we have R1b-M269 in a neolithic culture of old Europe rather than in the steppes. In addition there is a possible genetic continuity in the Balkans because we have cases of and R1b-L754 in Romania (Ostrovul and Schela Cladovei)- I5411 (6,650 BC), I5408 (5,000 BC), which could demonstrate a regional origin of that Smyadovo M269-

@Davidski said-Gaska-Ask your contacts about P312 in Czech CWC

I will- But I wanted to remind you that if we have learned anything by studying genetics it is that no prehistoric culture was homogeneous with respect to its uniparental markers-At first the CWC was an exception because it was fully R1a, but later cases of I2a1a1b-Y4213 appeared in northern Bohemia (CWC) - That lineage is documented in Iron Gates from the Mesolithic (Mathieson), in the Baltic Hgs (Narva culture), in Hódmezővásárhely-Gorzsa; Tisza-Late Neolithic, in the Blatterhole cave (Germany), in Bohemia (CWC) and even in Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor; Hungary (BBC)- You have the perfect example of a male lineage with more than 6,000 years of genetic continuity in Central Europe that has been found in six different cultures, making it evident that he was somehow incorporated or recruited by the CWC-Exactly the same thing could happen with R1b-P312 both in the Czech Republic and in Germany, that is, in the contact areas between CWC and BBC. Then from my point of view it is not very worrying if what you are saying is confirmed when the papers we are talking about are publish


Rob said...

@ FrankN

I think people said Wartberg were I2a2a1a. Its distribution (Wartberg, British Neolithic) suggests a hitching onto (middle-late) Neolithic expansion in Rhine - to Britain area.

Leper said...

Finally some Danes.

What an overhaul. Gotta get back to work as well... Thanks.

Richard Rocca said...

@Rob said... I think people said Wartberg were I2a2a1a.

Correct Rob, all male samples belonged to I2a2a1a.

Arza said...

@ Davidski

In G25 Danish:Denmark1 and Swedish:Sweden23 have the same coordinates.
In WE KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1:I4323 and KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA2:I4784 are duplicated.

Davidski said...

@Arza

Thanks, fixed.

Arza said...

Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJNA608699

No DNA for now, but metadata of 96 samples has been already uploaded.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Richard Rocca, Interesting all Wartberg males belonged to I2a2a1a. It adds another example ofa patrilineal population in Neolithic Europe. We've already seen in many instances now.

Do you know the Y DNA of Welzin Bronze age Germany? They are from tollense valley battle. They have lots of Central/East European hunter gatherer ancestry. I wonder if they, are descendants of Wartberg populations living into the Bronze age.

Samuel Andrews said...

Welzin_BA has a direct affinity to modern Slavs. Maybe, South Slavic Y DNA I2a1b2a is from them, from late hunter gatherer rich pops of Central Europe.

Would if WelzinBA is I2a1b2a. That would be big news, for South Slavic origins.

Arza said...

Who lived on the Swiss Plateau around 3300 BCE? Analyses of commingled human skeletal remains from the dolmen of Oberbipp (archaeology)
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oa.2791

Samuel Andrews said...

@Arza, Thanks for the link. They made an abstract about DNA from this Swiss Dolmen last year. It took one year to go on ENA website, it will probably another year to be published.

Academia likes to take its sweet time. I believe David Reich has thousands of unpublished ancient genomes.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Richard Rocca,

Has anyone gotten mtDNA from Wartberg? I know it is less informative than Y DNA. But, I know a bit about mtDNA, and can maybe make possibly make important inferences about Wartberg mtDNA.

Arza said...

R1a-M458 in Switzerland!

Davidski said...

@Arza

R1a-M458 in Switzerland!

How do you know and which sample?

Arza said...

Y-DNA calls of MX265 with R1a-M458 (look for PF6202):

https://pastebin.com/ZapFRPxn

List of samples:
https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Traces/study/?acc=SRP250694&o=acc_s%3Aa

List of BAMs ready to download:
https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Traces/sra/?study=SRP250694

The rest is G2a, I2a and R1b1a1b if I haven't overlooked anything.

Davidski said...

OK, what period are these samples from? Late Neolithic?

Arza said...

@ Davidski
wget -i bamlist.txt

bamlist.txt:
https://pastebin.com/AywWFCYL

Arza said...

@ Davidski

It's this one:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/07/smbe-2018-abstracts.html

Genetic transition in the Swiss Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age

Furtwaengler et al.

Recent studies have shown that the beginning of the Neolithic period as well as final stages of the Neolithic were marked by major genetic turnovers in European populations.The transition from hunter-gatherers to agriculturalists and farmers/farming in the 6 th millennium BP coincided with a human migration from the Near East. In the 3 rd millennium BP a second migration into Central Europe occurred originating from the Pontic steppe linked to the spread of the Corded Ware Complex ranging as far southwest as modern day Switzerland. These genetic processes are well studied for example for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region in Eastern Germany, however, little is known from the regions that connect Central and Southern Europe. Here, we investigate genomic data from 69 individuals from the Swiss Plateau and Southern Germany that span the transition of the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (5500 to 4000 BP). Our results show a similar genetic process as reported for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region suggesting that the migration from the Pontic steppe reached all the way into the Swiss plateau. The high quality of the ancient genomic data also allowed an analysis of core families within multiple burials, the determination and qualification of different ancestry components and the determination of the migration route taken by the ancestors of the Late Neolithic populations in this region. This study presents the first comprehensive genome wide dataset from Holocene individuals from the Swiss plateau and provides the first glimpse into the genetic history of this genetically and linguistically diverse region.

Davidski said...

I'm guessing the paper is coming very soon and the genotype data will be here.

https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/imeji/collections?q=

Ric Hern said...

@ Arza

Thank you.

Samuel Andrews said...

"Very soon"

Ric Hern said...

Kind of reminds me of the Salzmünde Tabiano coloured Horse....

old europe said...



@arza

" The rest is G2a, I2a and R1b1a1b if I haven't overlooked anything"

R1b1a1b is related to M-269 or is R1b V88?

Arza said...

@ old europe
M269. Here is what Yleaf has recognized automatically:

MX211 G2a2a1a2a1 G-S11565/etc*(xL166,PF3143^)

MX275_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xS450,DF17,M167,L165,L617,L881,A431,S359,S453,L356,BY247,Z2248,Y18211)

MX257_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-PF6543/etc*(xFGC14885,A1243,L729.2,S265,S24013,JFS0001,L48,S500,FGC427,S12025,A2148,S26140,L326,A8045)

Aesch21_rmdup G2a G-CTS6753/etc*(xFGC666,Z6278,Z3238)

MX258_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xS450,DF17,Z205,L165,L881,DF81,Z29990,S7402,Z37,FGC5513,A93,BY2589,DF99)

SNPRA58 G2a2a1a2a G-PF3238*(xZ6215^,PF3242^,BY21539,Y140842,FGC2310)

MX283_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xS450,DF17,Z262,L165,L617,L881,A431,S359,CTS6519.1,L409,CTS7958,Z143,L100,PF6584,F1493.2,L1358,BY247,L238,DF99,Y18210)

SX29_rmdup I2a1a2~ I-Z2575*(xAMM068,A812,Y13569,S20061)

SX11_rmdup G2a2 G-CTS4367*(xPF3184,Z3238)

MX191 I2a1a2~ I-AM01260/etc*(xAMM058,S12452)

Aesch14_rmdup G2a2a1a2a1 G-Z6130^*(xFGC5672^,PF3143^)

MX279_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xS450,M167,L165,A431,F1343,S453,L408,CTS1595,S259,L1358,L21,L238)

SNPRA64 R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xS227,L881,A431,F1343,S453,L356,FGC5512,BY2588,Z2248,DF19)

MX254_2_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xZ272,M167,L165,L617,L881,A431,F1343,DF81,L356,L192.1,Z2245,DF99,Y18211)

SNPRA61 G2a2a1a2a1 G-Z6130^/etc*(xZ6134^,Y18934^,Z6241)

MX288_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xS227,L617,L881,A431,S359,CTS11567,L356,Z260,Z2245,L1199,DF99,Y18210)

Aesch23_rmdup G2a2a1a2a1 G-FGC2271/etc*(xFGC5696^,PF3242^)

SNPRA63 R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xZ212,S457,L165,L617,L881,S359,CTS11567,L739,L196,FGC12403,L552,FGC22513,Z37,PF6578,F1493.2,L1358,S245,DF99)

Aesch25_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-L151*(xM405,P312,FGC37115)

MX188 I2a1a2~ I-AM01271/etc*(xAMM078,F3145)

MX182 G2a2a1a2a1 G-Z6130^*(xZ6215^,Y18934^)

MX192 I2a1a2~ I-AM01260/etc*(xAMM053,S13737)

MX212 G2a2a1a2a1 G-FGC2271/etc*(xZ6287,Z6226^)

MX210 G2a2a1a2a1 G-PF3240/etc*(xL167,PF3143^)

SX20_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xS1217,M167,L165,L617,L881,A431,F1343,CTS11567,S255,L196,S1468,S7402,FGC22963,FGC31485,FGC22513,CTS4333,Z143,L4,PF6578,F1493.2,L21,Y18213)

Aesch19_rmdup G2a2a1a2a1 G-Z6130^/etc*(xL166,PF3143^)

MX150 G2a2a1a2 G-L91*(xZ6207,PF3143^,Z6772,FGC2376,ZS3311.2)

Aesch1_rmdup G2a2a1a2a1 G-PF3239/etc*(xL166,PF3143^)

MX219 G2a2a G-PF3181*(xBY47532,Z31437,Z34559)

MX209 G2a2a1a2a1 G-Z6130^*(xZ6206^,BY180368^,Z6243)

MX252_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a2 R-P312*(xDF27,L408,CTS188,Z37,PF6584,S259,F1493.2,L1358,S461,DF99)

Aesch22_rmdup G2a2a1a2a1 G-S11565*(xL167,PF3242^)

Vladimir said...

interesting. CHAIR-"THE THRONE OF» And WAGONS IN the CULTURES of the BRONZE age CIRCUMPONTIC HABITAT Summary. Based on the recent discovery of two carts and an unusual seat - " chair "in the Novotitorovskaya culture and its probable analogies in the materials of the Yamnaya and Catacomb cultures of the black sea and the Caucasus, as well as in the Bedene culture in Georgia, the question is raised about the addition of a special, prestigious form of funeral rites using two carts and a chair - "throne". Possible replicas of it are also found to the South, in Mesopotamia (necropolis of Ur). A special cult of the throne existed among the Hittites, two carts and a throne appear in the Hittite Royal funeral ritual, known from written sources. The chronological priority of such finds in the Novotitorovskaya culture (2877–2680 гг. СalВС) over the Bedene culture mound No. 3 Ananauri (2400 BCE), especially before the Hittite tablets of the second Millennium BCE, speaks in favor of adding this ritual among the steppe mound cultures with subsequent distribution in Transcaucasia and Anatolia. This, in turn, is of interest for reconstructing social processes in various bronze age cultures, as well as for finding out how groups of speakers of Indo-European dialects entered the Anatolian-Mesopotamian region. About the author: Gey Alexander N., Institute of Archaeology Russian Academy of Sciences. Brief Communications of the Institute of Archaeology, 2019.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Arza, Thnaks for sharing that. I see a lot of R1b-L151 but no R1a1-M417. Are those R1b(s) from Corded Ware!!

If not, where are the Corded Ware Y DNA samples? We should see lots of R1a.

Gaska said...

@Arza

Thanks, Someone knows the dates? The authors refer to the period between 5,500-4.000 BP so 3.500-2.000 BC?

Arza said...

@ Samuel Andrews
Right now it's impossible to say how many CWC samples they have.

@ Gaska
3.500-2.000 BC?
It looks so.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen_von_Aesch
Die 1993 an der ETH Hönggerberg in Zürich durchgeführte C14-Datierung ergab ein Alter von rund 4400 Jahren, die Anlage wurde also etwa 2400 v. Chr. errichtet.

This one may be interesting (all other samples from this site are G2a):
Aesch25_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-L151*(xM405,P312,FGC37115)

Samuel Andrews said...

Are those all the male samples? You said one is R1a M458. I'm not saying him in the list. Only G2a, I2a, R1b.

They did say, their samples range to 4,000 BP Early Bronze age. I would guess those many R1b samples are Bell Beaker. But, it would be very exciting if they turn out to be Corded Ware.

Davidski said...

A good number of these samples are probably from the Early Bronze Age. That is, later than the Bell Beaker period. So no wonder there's a lot of P312.

Nevertheless, there was a lot of talk about Corded Ware samples in the context of this study, so I'm surprised to see just one R1a-M417.

Indeed, we don't even know which period MX265 is from. This individual might not even be from a Corded Ware burial.

Arza said...

Here is a slightly newer version of the abstract:
https://boris.unibe.ch/133227/
In this study, we investigate genome-wide data from 97 individuals from the Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace Region in France that span the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (4500 to 2000 BCE). Our results show a similar genetic process as reported for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region suggesting that the migration from the Pontic steppe reached all the way into the Swiss Plateau. However, our evidence suggests that the onset of that transition may have started even earlier in Switzerland compared to the Middle-Elbe-Saale region.

Davidski said...

Right, so it'll be interesting to see if any of these L151/P312 samples are dated to earlier than the Beaker period.

old europe said...



Here is a slightly newer version of the abstract:
https://boris.unibe.ch/133227/
In this study, we investigate genome-wide data from 97 individuals from the Swiss Plateau, Southern Germany and the Alsace Region in France that span the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (4500 to 2000 BCE). Our results show a similar genetic process as reported for the Middle-Elbe-Saale region suggesting that the migration from the Pontic steppe reached all the way into the Swiss Plateau. However, our evidence suggests that the onset of that transition may have started even earlier in Switzerland compared to the Middle-Elbe-Saale region.

If that is true that would mean that R1b and steppe dna arrived in central europe before corded ware....

Gaska said...


@ Arza said-This one may be interesting (all other samples from this site are G2a):
Aesch25_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-L151*(xM405,P312,FGC37115)

Yeah, it is strange that in a European deposit G2a and R1b-L151 appear together

Suche nach Dolmen von Aesch Die 1993 an der ETH Hönggerberg in Zürich durchgeführte C14-Datierung ergab ein Alter von rund 4400 Jahren, die Anlage wurde also etwa 2400 v. Chr. errichtet.“ So 2.400 BC????-

Davidski said...

If that is true that would mean that R1b and steppe dna arrived in central europe before corded ware....

Strange conclusion.

Gaska said...


L151*-Aesch Dolmen-It can be a BB intrusive burial in a Neolithic dolmen, there are many such cases in Spain-We need the dating.

Researchers may have found R1a to be older in Switzerland than in Germany and so they say that steppe migrations came to Switzerland earlier than to Germany.

Ric Hern said...

It will be interesting to see if those G2a2 and I2a1 samples were locals or came from somewhere else during that time.

Davidski said...

@Gaska

Airplanes weren't invented until 1903. So of course steppe ancestry first moved into what is now Germany before spreading into the Swiss Plateau.

However, it seems that it moved into the Swiss Plateau earlier than the Middle-Elbe-Saale region.

This might be due to the fact that the Corded Ware expansion to the west was very rapid.

Rob said...

It’ll be interesting to see what they base the dating on
The Swiss area is renowned for the availability of dendrodating, which can augment C14 dates and help overcome the ‘plateau’ in calibration between 2900-2700, which is exactly when CwC was expanding

Gaska said...

@ Davidski

To get to Switzerland from the east, you do not need to go through Germany and much less through Middle-Elbe-Saale region (Saxony-Anhalt-Northern Germany)-So it is perfectly possible that a R1a-group reached Swiss plateau sooner than Saxony without using planes.

How many of those R1b-P312 / L151 in Switzerland do you think are associated with the CWC?

Davidski said...

@Gaska

The samples are from the Swiss Plateau, southwest Germany and Alsace.

And of course we already have a steppe-rich CWC sample from southwest Germany belonging to L151. So more will come sooner or later.

Samuel Andrews said...

The rule is, if there's one there's many.

R1b L151 in one CWC Germany sample, means there were CWC tribes with 100% R1b L151. Not just some R1b L151, but 100% R1b L151. Seems some people here don't get that.

There might be R1b L51 popping up in multiple places before 2500 BC, but ultimately it comes from one population from the Pontic Caspien Steppe. Seems some people here don't get that it is that simple.

Richard Rocca said...

Don't expect any surprises here. I was told by the lead author at the end of last year that no R-M269 were samples were found in a Corded Ware context and that all R-M269 samples are younger than 2200 BC. All older males belonged to G2a and I2a/I2c.

Gaska said...

@Davidski-

Furtwaengler et al. said-"suggesting that the migration from the Pontic steppe reached all the way into the Swiss Plateau. However, our evidence suggests that the onset of that transition may have started even earlier in Switzerland compared to the Middle-Elbe-Saale region"

If you do not agree with that statement you should talk to them and also to Prof-Haak who I think has been looking for CWC deposits for a long time to analyze and show that the German CWC deposits are older-At the moment with the data we have it seems that the famous steppe ancestry reached Switzerland before Germany.

I suppose you are talking about Alt_4, which as you know is very doubtful that it is CWC- But I have already told you that even if it were, it would not change the general vision we have of the migrations of R1a and R1b from the steppe. Kristiansen and colleagues are working fast to try to make up for the mistakes and ridicule, and they will surely find some isolated case of P312 at the CWC- It is going to show that a joint migration with R1a occurred and that both lineages brought IE to mainland Europe?-

Only in their/your dreams-

Gaska said...

@Sam Andrews said-R1b L151 in one CWC Germany sample, means there were CWC tribes with 100% R1b L151. Not just some R1b L151, but 100% R1b L151. Seems some people here don't get that.
There might be R1b L51 popping up in multiple places before 2500 BC, but ultimately it comes from one population from the Pontic Caspien Steppe. Seems some people here don't get that it is that simple.

HA HA HA HA HA HA,

Davidski said...

@Richard

Note that 28 new samples were added to the study. And it looks like one of the new samples belongs to R1a.

Davidski said...

@Gaska

ALT_4 is definitely a Corded Ware burial. A well known one in fact.

Who says it's not? That wacko Carlos Quiles? Haha.

Rob said...

ALT_4 is non diagnostic

Davidski said...

ALT_4 is from the Taubertal, which is full of Corded Ware burials.

It's always been known as a Corded Ware mass grave.

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/fbbw/article/view/44479

Gaska said...

@Davidski

I think Mr Quiles does not deserve a single word in this blog or in any other, because like many other people, he uses data partially and hides/forgets/manipulates interesting data that does not favor his absurd theories.So I think it's better to ignore him-

Alt_4 it is doubtful because it has no grave goods associated and because it is a "family" burial that does not appear to be typical of the CWC. German archaeologists have already expressed their doubts, and many others have spoken that the CWC in that region is totally atypical. Then I suppose that the famous P312 that you mention in the Czech Republic (I have already asked about it) is a typical burial of the CWC, and that it is old enough to be taken into account.

It seems that Rocca is well informed about the dates of R1b in Switzerland, so the only explanation for the arrival of the steppe ancestry in that region depends on R1a, and as it has happened in the Baltic countries, Poland, Germany, the Czech Republic, etc. that lineage never appears in the same deposits as R1b, so a supposed joint migration seems very unlikely

Rob said...

But if lacks grave goods and is oriented north to south rather than east - west
So it’s certainly not an early corded ware archetype

Archi said...

Davidski said..
"ALT_4 is definitely a Corded Ware burial. A well known one in fact."

I's not a true. This burial has no attributes of the Corded Ware culture. It is far isolated, not in Corded Ware cemetery. It is on the border of Corded Ware culture and Bell Beaker culture and refers to Corded Ware only because it is still a CWC territory, and so could bury both Corded Wares and Bell Beakers.
About this burial can be unequivocally said only that it is outcasts.

@Gaska
EHG is not the sum of ANE+WHG.

Davidski said...

@Arhi

Bullshit.

The Althäuser Hockergrab is considered a Corded Ware mass burial in Corded Ware country. And ALT_4 obviously fits the bill as a Corded Ware individual in terms of genome-wide ancestry too.

Not a coincidence.

Jatt_Scythian said...

Is Carlos Quiles still writing about R1a is Uralic? That guy is so fucking weird.

Can't wait till the Volosovo R1bs come out. A blow to Carols and someone else in this thread all at once.

Not only is R1b Eastern Europeans its Northeast European

Archi said...

@Davidski Bullshit.

I wrote the truth. Than there who thinks it is a question of who smokes what, but mass graves are not typical for CWC, just the opposite. And it is not a mass grave, but a grave of two women with two children. Previously, it was believed that it is a man and a woman, which is usually for CWC, although buried outside the rules of CWC paired burial, but now this argument is removed, so the last argument to attribute this burial to CWC is destroyed.

Archi said...

Davidski said...
" The samples are from the Swiss Plateau, southwest Germany and Alsace.

And of course we already have a steppe-rich CWC sample from southwest Germany belonging to L151."

For what reason did you decide that France and Switzerland and southwest Germany are CWCs?

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jan_Turek6/publication/330708124/figure/fig2/AS:720383917432833@1548764318540/Map-of-the-Bell-Beaker-Phenomenon-and-neighbouring-influenced-territories-Background-map.png

Gaska said...

@Jack

Western R1b kicked your collective R1a butts when CWC was terrorizing mainland Europe and didn't let CWC get past Switzerland

epoch said...

@David

"EHG is not the sum of ANE+WHG."

If not, then what is it? ANE+WHG+CHG as was suggested by some paper?

Archi said...


From what I found, the prefixes mean Aesch, MX - Swiss Bell Beakers, SX - Alsace.

Jatt_Scythian said...

Not sure who the fuck Jack is but LOL.

How can Western R1b kick R1a and CW's ass when R1b is Eastern and linked to Corded Ware?

Archi said...

@Jatt_Scythian
R1b is not related to Corded Ware in any way.

AWood said...

The summary suggests that Corded Ware expansion reached all the way to Switzerland. I hope they are not basing this around one single R1a result that matches a CWC timeframe, assuming the R1b burials are all younger than 2200 BC and would be BBC I presume.

AWood said...

Are all the Neolithic burials in the Swiss results non-R1b? That's really the only question that needs to be asked, since we know R1b-L151 was in eastern Mongolia 3200 BC with a Yamnaya genetic profile.

a said...


R1a in CW's in Germany and in Baltic have been with Hammer Head Yamnaya pins, and or connected by Yersinia pestis> Baltic R1a-Vucedol R1b-Z2103

Corded Ware (CW) burial in Tiefbrunn, Germany; one of a few that contain a hammer-headed bone pin, like those found in Yamnaya and Catacomb graves on the steppe, particularly in the North Caucasus region.

Gaska said...

@ Sorry Jatt

The demonstration that we kicked your ass is that not a single R1a has been found in the BB culture, because it was a Western culture-If R1b was linked to the CWC, how do you explain R1a staying in Switzerland and all of Western Europe including the BBC was full of R1b?- They evidently did not make the trip together-The BB culture stopped the Indo-European invasion in Hungary, everything else is fairy tales-

Or maybe as R1a has its origins in the steppes, they were afraid to sail, and stayed voluntarily in the Alps on vacation

Jatt_Scythian said...

You're fucking delusional.

Jatt_Scythian said...

As for we kicked your asses "you" didn't kick anyone's ass. Eastern Europeans replaced the native population of Western Europe. They kicked everyone's ass. But "you". Haha. You can't even kick anyone's ass in terms of arguing on a blog. Delusions of grandeur. I get that R1b being Eastern European has hurt your little world view but you'll have to deal with it.

Archi said...

@AWood
"The summary suggests that Corded Ware"

Where did you find the words Corded Ware on the summary? Why does everyone see what's not written?

"know R1b-L151 was in eastern Mongolia 3200 BC"

What the hell Eastern Mongolia is it? Is your vision all right at all or do you not know the geography? Or do you have problems with reading again?


AWood said...

@Archi

The summary states that Corded Ware ancestry reached Switzerland, but it doesn't say anything further about that.

"In the 3 rd millennium BP a second migration into Central Europe occurred originating from the Pontic steppe linked to the spread of the Corded Ware Complex ranging as far southwest as modern day Switzerland."

My point is that downstream branches of M269+ (or even M269+) are not from western Europe, and we have hundreds of samples now, and a very old one that's far away 3200 BC.

I was assuming RRocca's comment is accurate that the M269+ samples are no earlier than 2200BC, which suggests they are BBC.

FrankN said...

"the onset of that [CW] transition may have started even earlier in Switzerland compared to the Middle-Elbe-Saale Region"

A trail up the Danube towards Switzerland is rather unlikely. CW appeared comparatively late in Moravia / Upper Austria, apparently out of Bohemia, and archeologically rather formed a hybrid with pre-existing post-Baden cultures than completely replacing them.

The standard assumption so far was that CW reached Switzerland from the Saale via the Main Triangle (Bergrheinfeld RISE446) and the Tauber Valley (modern A71 and A80 motorways). At least the Main Triangle CWC seems to have been a spin-off of the Saale CWC.
That assumption was already implicitly put into question by Furholt 2014 "Upending a totality.." His multifactoral analysis demonstrated a lack of cultural linkage between Swiss and Saale CWC Groups. Instead, Swiss CWC had most in common with Single Grave from the Elbe-Weser triangle, followed by Dutch CWC (unfortunately, Furholt didn't include Rhein-Main CWC in his analysis, which should have been the place were both streams converged).
Now, intriguingly, Furholt also uncovered strong cultural contacts between Baltic (Lithuanian) CWC, and the Mecklenburg - Schleswig-Holstein - Elbe-Weser - Netherlands Single Grave cluster - a communication line that was obviously seaborne, and in all likelyhood fuelled by amber trade.

Furholt 2014 furthermore cautiously (in Figure 1) revised his older statement, whereby the oldest CWC appeared in S. Poland. Instead, he now seems to align with other research that sees the earliest evidence of CWC elements - still as hybrid with pre-existing groups - in the Bay Coast Culture along the E. Prussian and Lithuanian coast shortly after 3,000 BC. Acc. to him, the first "original" culture, yet lacking the characteristic pottery but already following the typical burial rite and championning battle axes, was Jutland Single Grave, the onset of which he dates to 2,900 BC.

So, Dave: "Airplanes weren't invented until 1903 ..", but boats were obviously already known during the Neolithic, and apparently used by CWC/SGC. Possibly
for expansion up the Rhine (and possibly also for getting from the Steppe to the Baltic Sea). Let's see what dates the Swiss study will yield..

Gaska said...

@ Aaron Wood-My point is that downstream branches of M269+ (or even M269+) are not from western Europe, and we have hundreds of samples now, and a very old one that's far away 3200 BC.

Are you on drugs or something?

Archi said...

@@AWood

It schematically describes two migrations, not what is in Switzerland or anywhere else Corded Ware has explored. The Swiss burials belong to Bell Beakers.

AWood said...

@Gaska

You might be. Stop inhaling all that diesel.

AWood said...

@Archi

The migrations which are being referred to in the summary are those related to farming, and one from the pontic-caspian steppe. There is nothing suggesting multiple steppe migrations, even if that did happen, it's not explicitly defined here.

Gaska said...

Furholt said-"CWC is simply a summary term that refers to certain ceramic vessels types distinguised by their decoration technique and weapons, that are often, but not always, connected to a particular set of funerary practices. AT least TWO of the three main defining characteristics of the CWC-A Horizon MAY HAVE ORIGINATED IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF EUROPE...

CWC burial practices are frequently portrayed as been highly uniform, however closer examination of the evidence reveals CONSIDERABLE REGIONAL VARIATION-

Dornheim et al (2.005)-Tauber Valley-" There is no gender differentiation detectable in the orientation-W-E prevails, as do collective burials

ALT_4 is oriented north to south rather than E-W or even W-E (Tauber valley)-Therefore, not only does he not have grave goods that identify him as CWC, neither does the type of burial match, nor the orientation of the corpses. Absolutely nothing, then if he is CWC he is of course an atypical individual buried with two women something also quite unusual as far as I know.

@Jatt-I have already told you that the eastern Europeans stayed on vacation in Switzerland because they did not know how to swim or navigate, although they could have learned to do it on the Volga river. Instead westerners were able to reach Mongolia LOL. You still haven't answered me, why isn't there R1a on the BBC?

Archi said...

@AWood

No one writes about BB migration at all, because nothing is known about its nature. Here they write about CWC because it is proved that they came from Eastern Europe. It is also proved that BB is a completely different population from the CW, and came completely separate from the CW.

Gaska said...

@ A Wood

downstream branches of M269+ (or even M269+) are not from western Europe, and we have hundreds of samples now

This phrase indicates that you have either lost your mind or are ignorant-you mean that P312, Df27, L21, U152 etc are not western?-The international scientific community will always be grateful to you

Archi said...



Furholt is a warrior autochthonist, so his opinion is wrong and biased.

AWood said...

@Gaska

My comment was not intended to be inclusive of every downstream R1b line, so I realize it wasn't very clear. I think it's highly probable that P312+/U106+ originated somewhere in modern Germany, but let's see if there are more surprises. My comment really referred to the fact M269+ hasn't popped up in any Neolithic samples, and it certainly wasn't the key initiator of the spread of farming based on hundreds of samples.

AWood said...

@Archi,

Strange then are the conclusions of the paper when none of the samples can be attributed to the period in question. Are we to assume the lone R1a male was the CWC "Superbreeder of Switzerland"?

a said...

Why skip R1b-L23+
I0443 ---born 5000 years ago, found in Pontic Steppe tested L51-
Yamnaya-I0443 Is L23+Y410+
Both samples,Yamnaya/Afanasievo R1b-151+ Swiss I6222 + Aesch25_rmdup R1b1a1b1a1a R-L151*, are downstream.

Gaska said...

@A Wood

Ok Aaron my apologies-So could you be so kind to explain to us why we have M269 in Smyadovo in a typical culture of old Europe (4,500 BC) - I suppose the only argument of the fanatic Kurganists will be to say that it only has 1 marker downstream M269, as they did with ATP3, but any experienced and unbiased geneticist would not hesitate to recognize that it is undoubtedly R1b-M269-
what do you think?

Richard Rocca said...

@a said... Yamnaya-I0443 Is L23+Y410+

Yes, sample I0443 is L23+Z2103-, but the Y410+ call is useless. It is a junk SNP.

AWood said...

@Gaska,

I would say it's a contact zone between the steppe zone and Neolithic Europe, and we know archaeology dictates that contact was occurring at this time. We know the large heads with animal clubs were encroaching on the "peaceful" farmers from the middle east. I don't know enough about calls one way or the other to have an informed view on ATP3. I would be skeptical since it's not in line with the hundreds of more reliable samples we have from the same region.

a said...

It's funny the Iberianist's demanded proof of L 151+ in Yamnaya/Afansievo for so long,making fun. Now they have it. The tables are turned, they must show proof of intermediate L23+ [upstream Z2103/L51]anywhere in Europe. The ball is now in their court.

Archi said...

@AWood

There are burials in Sion-Petit-Chasseur that were marked by MX, they belong to the Bell Beaker culture. There is still a very strange small collective burial in Spreitenbach-Moosweg which has no analogues, but analogues to which are searched in Taubertal CWC, therefore it seems to be considered as CWC, but it was not marked as MX.
Maybe designations somehow have changed?


Archi said...

All those are from 2500 BC and later.

Jatt_Scythian said...

Gaska is just a delusional little racist. "Westerner Europeans" never made it to Mongolia. Those Afanasievo males had no ancestors live west of Ukraine and in all likelihood (not even west of the Don) Russia.

Gaska said...

@A Wood

Exactly, a contact area where cultural and genetic exchanges took place in an E-W direction and vice versa for millennia. But that deposit has nothing to do with Suvorovo or any other group from the steppes but with Gumelnita-Karanovo culture and therefore, currently M269 does not originate in the steppes but in the lower Danube (Bulgaria) - This means that for the moment (While do not find older M269 in the steppes) M269 is a neolithic farmer, not a steppe herder

Jatt_Scythian said...

TIL Bulgaria is in Western Europe.

Gaska said...

Jatt

Your statements are poorly founded and you should seriosly consider working on your tone.If you want a polite debate go easy on the insults

Maybe you haven't understood my question. Why do you think there is no R1a on the BBC if R1b and R1a traveled together from the steppes? and please try checking the facts a little before putting out an idiotic answer

Jatt_Scythian said...

I never said they traveled together.Clearly lineages could travel without each other. Ie R1a-Z93+ in ANdronovo and R1b-z2103 in Afansievo.

And please don't talk about facts You ignore anything that doesn't fit your world view. Stop ignoring the facts.

Ric Hern said...

Maybe R1b had longer legs than their R1a brothers. 10 cm/second faster times a 100 years and you get a significant difference in distance. Heheheeh ;)

AWood said...

@Gaska, I think we will find older M269+ in Ukraine, because I simply see no reason not to based on the distribution of other relevant branches. If M269+ were local to Bulgaria, then it is without a doubt from the Balkan hunter gatherers, and if it were from them, what is the explanation that there was only minimal EEF admixture before forming Yamnaya in the east? Based on what I remember, the hunter gatherers of the Balkans weren't very significant in any form, and by the time the Balkan region becomes significant, they are all farming cultures, with little trace of previous people.

AWood said...

@Gaska,

Lastly, at what point do we need to keep excavating ancient Balkan cultures to determine that M269+ is not from NW Turkey? I thought we had enough data points already, but maybe not. I'll admit that there seems to be some variety, and I concede I don't recall specific SNPs beyond a point. Some are G2a, C-V20, I2-M223, J2a, and I believe even E-V13. That is quite a diverse group, but still, no true sign of M269 (outside this outlier, assuming it's legit)

Rob said...

The I2a1a1 & G2a make perfect sense, resembling the profile seen in northern Italy (Remedello etc) , confirming the pre-beaker copper age links been northern Italy and Switzerland

Gaska said...


@Jatt

Let's assume that it is true that there are not one but many R1b-P312 in the CWC, that these samples are old enough to be taken into account, that both R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 come from the steppes (No Yamnaya of course because there is no R1b-L51/P312 or R1a, but from Repin or Sredni Stog,assuming that both appear in those cultures) and that both lineages traveled separately-So I guess you will agree that P312 and R1a-M417 shared the same culture, the same traditions, the same language, the same weapons. Even the same "race" because they would share the same steppe ancestry right?-The first problem you would have to solve is to try to explain these words

Elzbieta Haduch-Bell beakers and Corded Ware people in the Little Poland upland, an anthropological point of view- “The Corded Ware culture skeletons, includes medium robustness of bones and dolichomorphic stature, associated with previous populations such as the FBC. Most skeletons from the BBC graves are distinct in that they have a set of characteristics differing from those commonly observed in Neolithic populations and the early Bronze period, demonstrating high uniformity of many morphological traits and proportions. Skulls are short or very short (breadth/width index above 80.0) with a non prominent or weakly prominent occiput, usually accompanied by a flattened rear part of the neurocranium in the obelica and lambdoidea section of the intraparietal suture and the upper part of the occipital squama.

Jatt, these are facts based on scientific studies, do you have any opinion about it?-Because of course it does not seem that we are talking about an anthropologically homogeneous population. You know the physical characteristics of the P312 BBs, right? Have you heard of brachycephaly?




Gaska said...


@Aaron

The Balkans were a kind of genetic shaker-WHGs, EHGs, Anatolian farmers, etc., in addition there is steppe ancestry in the Peloponnese and in the culture of Cucuteni, R1a in Glavanesti (3.500 BC) and farmer ancestry in Sredni Stog, Yamnaya etc. There were genetic contacts in both directions, so any situation is perfectly possible. Do you think that M269 will appear in Ukraine?, perhaps, but for the moment it has appeared in Bulgaria and could migrate to Central Europe 1,500 years before the CWC appeared

In any case M269 and its ancestors were not Turkish farmers, but WHGs who adopted agriculture in the Balkans, and from there took it to the steppes and to mainland Europe

Samuel Andrews said...

@Gaska,"You still haven't answered me, why isn't there R1a on the BBC?"

I can explain that. R1b L151 and R1a M417 didn't exist in the same population in Corded Ware. They existed in different populations, because Corded Ware was composed of multiple Steppe populations who carried different Y haplogroups.

Samuel Andrews said...

Has anyone confirmed the R1b L52 in Afanasievo?

Archi said...

@Samuel Andrews
"Corded Ware was composed of multiple Steppe populations who carried different Y haplogroups."

Where did you get this fantasy from? It's just not true, don't make it up.

Davidski said...

@Archi

It is true. There's R1b and even Q1a in upcoming Corded Ware samples.

Davidski said...

@Arza

What does Yleaf automatically give for MX265? Does it get to the Z645 level?

FrankN said...

AWood: "M269+ hasn't popped up in any Neolithic samples .." It actually couldn't, its too young for it.

" ..and it certainly wasn't the key initiator of the spread of farming." Definitely not, see above. However, the initial spread of farming into Central/NW Europe only concerned loess areas, leaving large areas still open for HG exploitation. Significant HG (hunter-pastoralist) presence is a/o attested via full-scale archeological cultures (La Hoguette, Swifterband, Erteboelle etc.), the rebound of WHG ancestry during the MN (including the prominent role of yDNA I2), and - of course - Blätterhöhle / Wartberg aDNA discussed above.

During the 4th mBC, we see a secondary expansion of farming into Britain (probably also Brittany), the CE plains plus S. Scandinavia (TRB), the Alps and their foreland, E. Bavaria/ W. Bohemia, and possibly a couple of other regions I would need to look into in more detail for a qualified statement, such as Burgundy, the Polish uplands, maybe even the Basque country. Instrumental here was a new farming system based on slash & burn agriculture plus cattle transhumancy that allowed for decent food supply at higher elevations and/or less fertile soils. The system was apparently invented in the Paris Basin during the late 5th mBC merger of hunter-pastoralist and EEF (LBK) traditions (RRBP), and subsequently spread by Michelsberg and related cultures (TRB, Altheim, etc.) across a huge territory that may approximately be delimited by Ireland, C. Sweden, N. Italy and Moravia.

That "second wave" is so far rather poorly covered aDNA-wise. We have aDNA from Neolithic Britain (but not yet Ireland), a handful of TRB samples, some uniparental Michelsberg markers from Alsace, now also Wartberg, but that's about it. Nothing from Brittany, the Netherlands or Belgium, neither from the around the Alps (except for the Iceman - too late, and rather representing Balkans metalurgy than the secondary expansion of farming), or E. Bavaria/ W. Bohemia. The little aDNA we have certainly suggests that the "second wave" was rather driven by yDNA I2 than by R1b-M269, but it is IMO insufficient to rule out the possibility that (pre-)M269 was - as WHG ancestry -picked up somewhere along the road, established itself in one of the newly neolithicised territories, and took it from there (possibly taking advantage of the Plague - the toll to the Black Death appears to correlate to the yDNA I1/2 frequency).

Actually, as a has correctly remarked, such putative niche "must show proof of intermediate L23+ [upstream Z2103/L51] ", in order to explain the apparent split into an eastern (Z2103) and a western (L51) branch. As such, we probably shouldn't search in regional MN cultures such as Wartberg or Cham. If R1b L23+ represents Vilabruna-derived WHG incorporated into the second neolithisation wave, it should have incubated in a MN culture with links to both Western and Eastern Europe. That culture could only have been GAC, with trade outposts stretching from Switzerland and the Elbe-Weser triangle to NW Russia and Western Ukraine.

Archi said...

@Davidski "It is true. There's R1b in upcoming Corded Ware samples."

It is not true. The BBCs settled along the borders of the CWC and thus penetrated the border undergoing CWC assimilation. In fact, this is the way many post-CWC cultures were formed.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Archi,"Where did you get this fantasy from? It's just not true, don't make it up."

I'm making inferences. R1a M417 dates 4500 BC. Corded Ware dates 2800 BC. Therefore, R1a M417 had 2,000 years of history before Corded Ware. In that time R1a m417 could differentiate into multiple R1a M417 subclades in multiple different populations.

We already see in Corded Ware R1a M417>L664, R1a M417>Z645>Z283. Two different R1a M417 subclades, arguable existing in two different populations in Corded Ware. If, different R1a M417 pops madeup Corded ware, why couldn't there have been an R1b L151 pop as well. Why couldn't there have also been R1a Z93.

This doesn't have substantiated evidence so I could be totally.

Samuel Andrews said...

This doesn't have substantiated evidence so I understand I could be totally wrong. I think it is a good explanation for how R1b L151 could have existed in Corded Ware alongside R1a M417.

Archi said...

@Samuel Andrews "I'm making inferences. R1a M417 dates 4500 BC. Corded Ware dates 2800 BC. Therefore, R1a M417 had 2,000 years of history before Corded Ware. In that time R1a m417 could differentiate into multiple R1a M417 subclades in multiple different populations.

We already see in Corded Ware R1a M417>L664, R1a M417>Z645>Z283. Two different R1a M417 subclades, arguable existing in two different populations in Corded Ware. If, different R1a M417 pops madeup Corded ware, why couldn't there have been an R1b L151 pop as well."

What are you writing? This is all a complete mistake. TMRCA R1a-M417 is approximately 3300BC, this roughly coincides with the start of the CWC at 3000 BC (2800BC is just a non-existent date). You deliberately gave the wrong dates.

See https://i.ibb.co/tKzfKjx/IE-with-TMRC.png

Naturally, a large number of men went to Central Europe, not just one person, but they made up a single population that for a long time maintained the closest ties with each other.

The BBC was a different population in no way similar to CWC, except that it also had a smaller number of "steppe" components.

Samuel Andrews said...

Ok, you're right TMRCA of R1a M417 is 5400 BP. My mistake.

But, we have 4000 BC R1a Z93 in Ukraine, 3500 BC R1a Z93(s) in Romania. So, R1a M417 is definitely dates to 4000-4500 BC. Much older than Corded Ware. You might dis agree with teh Sredny Stog R1a Z93, but there's no arguing the one published R1a Z93 3500 BC in Romania and unpublished Ustavo R1a Z93.

Archi said...

"Samuel Andrews "4000 BC R1a Z93 in Ukraine, 3500 BC R1a Z93(s) in Romania."

We don't have those dates! I have already written a thousand times that there is an error in dating in that Alexandria burial, they did not give a diagram of C14 measurements, I am sure, because it would be immediately visible error.
In Romania there are no dates at all, there is only an approximate dating of 3500-3000, not 3500!!!!!, and in the neighboring burials there in the archaeological articles the attribution error is shown! That is, they attribute one time, and the dating is a thousand years different, and put themselves in a deadlock without understanding what is happening!

Therefore, all your other assumptions are erroneous.


Samuel Andrews said...

@Archi, "The BBC was a different population in no way similar to CWC, except that it also had a smaller number of "steppe" components."

If not directly related, CWC and Netherlands/Britain Beakers are similar. BBC Central Europe is less similar.
CWC_Czech
Beaker_The_Netherlandsavg_nooutliers 0.030272279
Beaker_Britain_no outliers 0.034954536
Beaker_Czech_Bra (xoutliers) 0.04911778
Beaker_Germany_Bavaria (xoutliers) 0.049846682
Beaker_France (excluding outliers) 0.051653864

CWC Sweden is closest to Beaker Netherlands, Britain. Closer than they are to CWC Germany and Czech. They had extra dose of farmer. CWC Sweden being most similar to Beaker Netherlands, supports the idea Beaker Netherlands is Corded Ware with extra dose of farmer.

CWC_Norse_Battle Axe_Sweden
Beaker_The_Netherlandsavg_nooutliers 0.02016341
Beaker_Britain_no outliers 0.021513624
Beaker_Czech_Bra (xoutliers) 0.030512352
Beaker_Germany_Bavaria (xoutliers) 0.031611973
Beaker_France (excluding outliers) 0.032550988

Archi said...

@"Samuel Andrews "3500 BC in Romania and unpublished Ustavo R1a Z93."

Glavenesti is not Usatovo, and is not 3500 BC.


Archi said...

@Samuel Andrews

CWC = EEF + WSH
BBC = EEF + WSH

This formula is the only thing they have in common, just everyone who is a mixture of European farmers (EEF) and the "steppe" component (WSH) will be similar. It is also possible that BB married CW women, but they are still completely different to CWC neither anthropologically nor archaeologically, culturally nor linguistically.

Davidski said...

@Archi

There's L51 in early CWC with very little EEF.

It'll be nice to see you squirm when you finally see these results.

Arza said...

@ Davidski
What does Yleaf automatically give for MX265? Does it get to the Z645 level?

Nothing. It either succeeds or fails.

Sample_name Hg Hg_marker Total_reads Valid_markers QC-score QC-1 QC-2 QC-3
MX265_rmdup NA NA 554683 6124 0.0 0.0 1.0 1.0

QC-1: This score indicates whether the predicted haplogroup follows the expected backbone of the haplogroup tree structure (i.e. if haplogroup E is predicted the markers defining: A0-T, A1, A1b, BT, CT, DE should be in the derived state, while other intermediate markers like: CF, F, GHIJK, etc, are expected to be in the ancestral state). The score is calculated by dividing the number of markers that show the expected state, by the sum of all intermediate markers. A score of 1 shows that all markers are in the expected state and indicates high confidence if the prediction of the correct broad haplogroup, if lower values are observed it is highly recommended to manually inspect the [sample_name].out file.

It caught some noise probably. There are some conflicting reads at A0-T or BT level (e.g. one ancestral, one derived) and I can't find anything else. Nothing to worry about. I don't even rely on this automatic prediction, it was just faster to share some of the results.

Davidski said...

@Arza

Is that the only potential R1a in the whole dataset?

Archi said...

Davidski said...
" There's L51 in early CWC with very little EEF.
It'll be nice to see you squirm when you finally see these results."

That doesn't change anything considering L51 in Mongolia before.

Chad said...

Gaska,

That Smyadova R1b is the outlier. It needs EHG and Piedmont ancestry. Clearly not local HG ancestry. It's not even half farmer.

Chad said...

*Smyadovo..

Davidski said...

@Archi

But the earliest Bell Beakers aren't from Mongolia, they're from Western and Central Europe where Corded Ware was found.

Arza said...

@ Davidski
Yes, if I haven't overlooked anything.

Full output (without sorted *.bam and *.bai) from all BAMs (females included):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q89Lfp-kM2VKoHYsVMphzL2EIAzGF2oK/view

Davidski said...

@All

The Aesch site featured in this latest paper is dated to 3100-2500 BCE. See Table 4 here...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oa.2791

So I'm guessing Aesch25_rmdup with the R1b-L151 is from the tail end of this period and with steppe ancestry.

Rob said...

@ FrankN


That "second wave" is so far rather poorly covered aDNA-wise. We have aDNA from Neolithic Britain (but not yet Ireland), a handful of TRB samples, some uniparental Michelsberg markers from Alsace, now also Wartberg, but that's about it. Nothing from Brittany, the Netherlands or Belgium, neither from the around the Alps (e

There is aDNA from Neolithic Ireland
Once we get full aDNA from Michelsberg & Brittany, MN Europe will be pretty well covered

Davidski said...

By the way, I still don't know the dates for these samples, but their geographical origins are listed under the Sample info.

https://trace.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Traces/sra/?study=SRP250694

So, for instance, MX265 is from the District of Constance, which is in southwest Germany.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov//biosample/SAMN14206648

Samuel Andrews said...

I bet Wartberg culture will have mixed West European farmer and LBK/Balkan farmer. Other words, not simply LBK+WHG.

Also, Michelsberg (4400-3500 BC) was first part of a migration from France into Central/East Europe which led to creation of Funnel Beaker, Megalith graves, Globular Amphora.

Why were Megalith graves common from British Isles to Poland? Migration of people from Western Europe into Central/East Europe. Like I've been saying for 2 years!!

Rob said...

@ Sam
I think most people know that
Your theory about a separate stream of farmers to Iberia in the other hand. Not so sure

Rob said...

See fig 21

https://revije.ff.uni-lj.si/DocumentaPraehistorica/article/view/43.10/6979

Davidski said...

Preliminary G25 coords for Aesch25 from the Swiss Plateau and MX265 from southwest Germany. I'm guessing Aesch25 is a very early R1b-M269 in the region, while MX265 is an R1a from a very mixed Corded Ware burial. But I might be wrong.

Aesch25_scaled,0.12862,0.11577,0.059585,0.092055,0.00677,0.032909,0.00517,0.013384,-0.025361,-0.030616,-0.00747,0.003747,-0.004014,-0.017478,0.029723,0.004508,-0.004172,-0.00038,0.001508,-0.00025,0.001123,-0.001855,0.000493,0.014339,-0.000239

Aesch25,0.0113,0.0114,0.0158,0.0285,0.0022,0.0118,0.0022,0.0058,-0.0124,-0.0168,-0.0046,0.0025,-0.0027,-0.0127,0.0219,0.0034,-0.0032,-0.0003,0.0012,-0.0002,0.0009,-0.0015,0.0004,0.0119,-0.0002

MX265_scaled,0.122929,0.14319,0.04978,0.026163,0.046778,-0.000558,0.002585,0.002308,0.005727,0.011663,0.012017,-0.005395,0.000595,0.01101,-0.009908,-0.015115,-0.009388,0.007348,0.001634,-0.002126,-0.01148,-0.00643,-0.002465,-0.006025,-0.008023

MX265,0.0108,0.0141,0.0132,0.0081,0.0152,-0.0002,0.0011,0.001,0.0028,0.0064,0.0074,-0.0036,0.0004,0.008,-0.0073,-0.0114,-0.0072,0.0058,0.0013,-0.0017,-0.0092,-0.0052,-0.002,-0.005,-0.0067

Vahaduo Global 25 West Eurasia PCA

Samuel Andrews said...

@Rob, "I think most people know that"

Nah, not everyone knew.

"Your theory about a separate stream of farmers to Iberia in the other hand. Not so sure"

The reason G25 PCA picks up Western admixture in GAC/TRb is because Western farmers derived from a different Anatolian population than Danube/Balkan farmers did. G25 PCA picks this different kind of Western European, Anatolian inside GAC/TRB.

You've been arguing the distinction in Western farmers is caused by a unique kind of hunter gatherers ancestry. Then, look at Iberian hunter gatherers in G25 PCA. That's not where the distinction comes from.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Davidski, Thanks for posting. R1b L151*, clusters with Corded Ware. Awesome.

Hodo Scariti said...

@ Davidski

I don't understand... so Aesch25 is similar to already published Corded Ware samples?

Arza said...

All moderns:

Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 1.7455% / 0.01745535
43.8 Polish
21.0 Sardinian
14.6 Belgian
11.8 Italian_Apulia
3.8 Lithuanian_VZ
3.6 Ukrainian
0.6 Ju_hoan_North
0.6 Papuan
0.2 Berber_MAR_ERR

All ancients:

Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 1.2714% / 0.01271432
23.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
14.2 DEU_LBK_N
13.8 HUN_Starcevo_N
11.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
11.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
6.2 HUN_Tisza_LN
6.2 SWE_LN_low_res
3.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
3.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
2.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
1.4 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier2
1.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.6 VUT_2300BP_all
0.4 ZAF_2000BP
0.2 MAR_Taforalt

Full spreadsheet:

Target: MX265_scaled
Distance: 1.2074% / 0.01207385
12.0 Ukrainian
11.8 HUN_Starcevo_N
11.0 HUN_Tisza_LN
10.8 Lithuanian_VZ
10.2 DEU_LBK_N
8.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
7.2 Polish
6.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
5.4 Baltic_LVA_BA
4.8 SWE_LN_low_res
3.8 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier2
2.8 HUN_MA_Szolad
1.4 Berber_MAR_ERR
1.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.8 Papuan
0.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.8 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
0.6 Ju_hoan_North

Distance to: MX265_scaled
0.03276940 Croatian:Croatia_Cro140
0.03338062 Serbian:Serbian_Serbia1
0.03659219 French_Alsace:A_27
0.03807339 Croatian:Croatia_Cro142
0.03966908 Italian_Northeast:ALP435
0.03971928 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.03978414 Serbian:Serbian_Serbia3
0.04011242 Austrian:Austria11
0.04034916 Slovenian:Slovenian137
0.04095786 Slovenian:Slovenian136
0.04104705 Croatian:Croatia_Cro305
0.04119784 Montenegrin:Montenegro4
0.04169563 Croatian:Croatia_Cro302
0.04174360 Croatian:Croatia_Cro53
0.04177622 Hungarian:NA15203
0.04180527 Bosnian:Bosnian_10
0.04194328 French_Alsace:A_24_2
0.04196512 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR61
0.04225116 Austrian:Austria1
0.04239003 Montenegrin:Montenegro6
0.04262616 French_Alsace:A_10
0.04263969 Macedonian:Macedonian3
0.04344373 French_Alsace:A_31
0.04351386 French_Nord:N_35
0.04363256 Bosnian:Bosnian_12

Samuel Andrews said...

Aesch25_scaled
Sintashta_MLBA 0.025240516
Srubnaya 0.025649694
CWC_Germany 0.025964902
CWC_DEU (minus outliers) 0.026932357
CWC_Czech 0.028555237
Andronovo (samples with no Asian admix) 0.028936887

Looks like this R1b L151* is Corded Ware.

Samuel Andrews said...

Aesch25_scaled, R1b L151* modeled with Neolithic Europe and Steppe.

@0.0244
76.2% Steppe (61.4% CWC_early, 14.8% Afanasiveo)
23.8% Farmer (all score goes to Poland_Globular Amphora)

Davidski said...

@Hodo Scariti

I don't understand... so Aesch25 is similar to already published Corded Ware samples?

Yes, basically identical.

Looks like a migrant to the Swiss Plateau from Corded Ware territory in Germany.

Samuel Andrews said...

Aesch25 lived in Basel-Landschaft, Switzerland. On the southern tip of the Rhine river.

Gaska said...

@Sam daid-"I can explain that. R1b L151 and R1a M417 didn't exist in the same population in Corded Ware. They existed in different populations, because Corded Ware was composed of multiple Steppe populations who carried different Y haplogroups"

I don't understand what you mean-Multiple steppe populations? L51 and M417 come from different cultures in the steppes? What culture or cultures do you think each of them belongs to? Different migrations over time? What do you think about their anthropological differences

Gaska said...

@Chad said-"That Smyadova R1b is the outlier. It needs EHG and Piedmont ancestry. Clearly not local HG ancestry. It's not even half farmer"

Archeologically he is not an outlier, but a typical farmer of the Gumelnita-Karanovo culture (dated-4.5000 BC)-Have you seen his grave goods? Nothing to do with the steppes.Obviously there is a possibility that Smyadovo's autosomal composition was the product of exogamy- You know that those cultures of old Europe disappeared due to the steppe invasions (4,400-4,200 BC), coming from Suvorovo. Even though R1b-M269 came from Suvorovo-Novodanilovka, it had 1,500 years to migrate to Central Europe before the arrival of the CWC

Gaska said...

@Sam

Neolithic farmers of the Atlantic megalithic culture (Iberia, France, British Isles, Sweden) are indistinguishable from each other-Their uniparental markers are identical. Several waves could have occurred from the Balkans between 6,000-4,500 BC, but the megalith builders are very similar genetically-Obviously in Iberia the Mit Hap-H, is very abundant, but because unlike other regions of Europe, it has been found in paleolithic and mesolithic sites, then for us it is not a marker linked to farmers but to WHGs.



Rob said...

@ Sam

“ The reason G25 PCA picks up Western admixture in GAC/TRb is because Western farmers derived from a different Anatolian population than Danube/Balkan farmers did. G25 PCA picks this different kind of Western European, Anatolian inside GAC/TRB.”

A large chunk of what you call 'western farmers' is from France, and it is a product of LBK, Cardial and local HGs. This makes them distinct; not an untapped mystery population from Anatolia.

You suggest that Italian farmers plot with balkans , but Iberia is distinct. Thats history implausible
Simple sanity check - Iberian farmer - Y-hg : G2a2, H2, pre-EV13. All found in SEE farmers.
R1b-V88 in Iberia - from Balkans.


“ Then, look at Iberian hunter gatherers in G25 PCA. That's not where the distinction comes from.”

That’s exactly why Iberian EN is different. It’s been shown in academic papers - elevated el miron ancestry continuing into Neolithic
Again, if you want to claim that Iberian farmers are different to due a leap-frog migration from Anatolia, then youd need some high level evidence, which at present is non existent.

Archi said...


Aeschs are Bell Beaker culture.

Simon_W said...

@Gaska

"there is steppe ancestry in the Peloponnese"

No, there isn't. Not before the Mycenaeans at any rate!

Target: GRC_Peloponnese_N
Distance: 1.5507% / 0.01550730

93.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
6.2 GEO_CHG
0 RUS_Samara_HG
0 WHG

There is some CHG in the later Neolithic samples from the Peloponnese, but they lack EHG, so it can't be Steppe ancestry. Rather, it came from Anatolia:

Target: GRC_Peloponnese_N
Distance: 1.2787% / 0.01278699

79.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
20.2 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0 WHG

This has been discussed aplenty, so I'm surprised some people still don't know this.

Simon_W said...

Target: Aesch25_scaled
Distance: 3.6107% / 0.03610676

73.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
16.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
9.8 WHG

Strong steppe component, but not completely lacking farmer admixture.

The 25 closest ancient pop averages from the complete ancient scaled Global 25 pop averages spreadsheet.

0.02319568
RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.02494720
RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
0.02595202
Corded_Ware_DEU
0.02623105
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.02855520
Corded_Ware_CZE
0.02893607
KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.02982545
KAZ_Chanchar_LBA
0.03157967
RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
0.03173934
KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.03215099
KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.03244667
KAZ_Karagash_MLBA
0.03255886
BGR_MLBA
0.03325164
KAZ_Kyzlbulak_MLBA1
0.03449200
UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
0.03467709
KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
0.03552451
RUS_Poltavka_o
0.03740282
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1
0.03754598
POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.03784358
KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
0.03874109
KAZ_Mys_MLBA
0.03913496
UKR_Sredny_Stog_En_o4
0.03959102
KAZ_Shoendykol_MLBA_Fedorovo
0.03970918
UZB_Kokcha_BA
0.04168389
KAZ_Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA
0.04196389
KAZ_Georgievsky_LBA

So, Corded Ware from Germany comes right on the third place. Only Srubnaya comes closer, but it can't be ancestral because it dates to 1800-1200 BC, the Aesch site to 3200-2500 BC.

Archi said...


All this data says that the BBC came separately from CWC, and received EEF already completely separate from CWC.

Davidski said...

Here are a couple of the G2a males.

Unlike Aesch25, which clusters very strongly with Corded Ware samples, these two cluster with Neolithic farmers.

Aesch23_scaled,0.122929,0.180764,0.047517,-0.03876,0.078476,-0.026495,-0.004935,-0.001154,0.062584,0.091483,0.000325,0.016036,-0.032705,-0.013212,-0.013029,-0.006497,-0.002347,0.002407,-0.004399,-0.003627,0.007986,0.003833,-0.011462,-0.03627,-0.002754
MX212_scaled,0.126344,0.169593,0.059208,-0.030039,0.09294,-0.027052,-0.001645,0.000231,0.073833,0.077633,-0.001949,0.01109,-0.029137,-0.019267,-0.015336,0.017369,0.024251,0.004181,0.001006,-0.008754,0.016221,0.004204,-0.012202,-0.038439,-0.005389

Aesch23,0.0108,0.0178,0.0126,-0.012,0.0255,-0.0095,-0.0021,-0.0005,0.0306,0.0502,0.0002,0.0107,-0.022,-0.0096,-0.0096,-0.0049,-0.0018,0.0019,-0.0035,-0.0029,0.0064,0.0031,-0.0093,-0.0301,-0.0023
MX212,0.0111,0.0167,0.0157,-0.0093,0.0302,-0.0097,-0.0007,0.0001,0.0361,0.0426,-0.0012,0.0074,-0.0196,-0.014,-0.0113,0.0131,0.0186,0.0033,0.0008,-0.007,0.013,0.0034,-0.0099,-0.0319,-0.0045

Vahaduo Global 25 West Eurasia PCA

FrankN said...

An interesting background read for those understanding German might be M. Szmyt 2003
https://www.academia.edu/1516644/Verbreitung_und_Kontakte_der_Kugelamphorenkultur

It deals with GAC influence on its peripheries, including

a) the Lower Memel/ Bay - Coast (GAC-Narva amalgamation serving as the base, on which CWC-influenced Bay Coast culture emerged),

b) The Dniepr-Dvina interfluve (GAC role in the emergence of the Middle Dniepr Culture, which is generally included into the CWC sphere),

c) NW Lake Constance (GAC influence on the Horgen Culture, ca. 32nd cBC, Sipplingen [47° 48′ N, 9° 6′ E] and Nußdorf [47° 45′ 10″ N, 9° 11′ 40″ E], possibly mediated via Rivnac, Cham and Goldberg III cultures)

d) Terminal Wartberg Culture (ca. 3,000-2,800 BC, i.e. the transition phase from collective burials to single graves, as such post-dating the Niedertiefenbach samples).

So, G25 preference of GAC as source of farming ancestry might be more than a statistical artefact, but instead reflect actual prehistorical admixtures along the GAC periphery.

Davidski said...

@Frank

R1b-M269 isn't from GAC and doesn't have anything to do with Villabruna.

You need to be more realistic with your theories, because otherwise things just get annoying and pointless.

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