tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post1294663708438874540..comments2024-03-19T06:26:06.056-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Neolithic Europe: it's complicated (Lipson et al. 2017 preprint)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18119476923088343272017-03-12T16:49:48.106-07:002017-03-12T16:49:48.106-07:00@ Jomon, no need to remove anything, interesting t...@ Jomon, no need to remove anything, interesting to read your thoughts. One other reason it seems like Chad R1b-V88 raises some questions are some of the finding in the recent paper on Chadic autosomes - http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(16)30448-7<br /><br />The Figure 4 has a finding where the Toubou population in Chad has strong offsets compared to the Amhara in being relatively Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55027454810347997662017-03-11T09:33:07.900-08:002017-03-11T09:33:07.900-08:00@ Matt, @Gioiello @Ric Hern
C is ancient, since i...@ Matt, @Gioiello @Ric Hern<br /><br />C is ancient, since it arose ~ 60 Ky ... I read that the split from R to P1 occurred ~ 27 Ky ... however, based on the time of divergence within hap Q ... this date is wrong and ok I wrote a lot of shit ...I agree and will erase my coments...<br /><br />In the Sahel and eastern Africa, a mixture of Western Eurasia comes from Levantine Neolithic (see Jomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03998745900697941825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39034223136771845992017-03-11T07:30:21.107-08:002017-03-11T07:30:21.107-08:00@ Jomon, generally agree with what you're sayi...@ Jomon, generally agree with what you're saying generally here about distro. of y, and decoupling though to put dates on the splits, check out Fig 3 and Fig 7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-017-1773-z.<br /><br />Around 47,000 YBP, pretty much simultaneous divergence of C clades - Northeast Asian C vs other C; then Kostenki C vs other C, then West_Eurasian_C vs SE Asia / Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68237125522102005722017-03-11T06:02:34.639-08:002017-03-11T06:02:34.639-08:00So didn't R1b-V88 spread into Africa during th...So didn't R1b-V88 spread into Africa during the Sahara Subpluvial Age ? It ended at +-5000 years ago so I can not really see how it can be much younger than that in that. I think R1b-V88 introduced domesticated cattle to Northern Africa as early as the start of the Subpluvial +-9000 years ago.Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79668927410302381682017-03-10T21:57:50.658-08:002017-03-10T21:57:50.658-08:00@ Jomon
"The R sublclades of chadians are ve...@ Jomon<br /><br />"The R sublclades of chadians are very young (~ 5Ky) and received from levantians migrants with already very diluted or lacking ANE"<br /><br />Again! R-V88 is documented in Italy during the Palaeolitic and expanded after the Younger Dryas. Italian samples are the oldest ones: R-V88*, R-V88-M18, R-V88-V35, R-V88-Y7777. African samples aren't older, as you said Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42766681616133511942017-03-09T17:43:15.841-08:002017-03-09T17:43:15.841-08:00@ Jomin
"But Mal'ta's R is very clos...@ Jomin<br /><br />"But Mal'ta's R is very close to basal clade ..."<br /><br />And so might be an LUP specimen from Central Asia or Russia Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52231143909649071922017-03-09T16:54:35.636-08:002017-03-09T16:54:35.636-08:00@Jomon - I take your point, but keep in mind that ...@Jomon - I take your point, but keep in mind that given Villabruna is ANE-admixed, so it's likely that virtually every European from the mesolithic onward has some ANE admixture.<br /><br />Y-haplogroups and aDNA can become a bit decoupled over time too. R and Q are pretty clearly linked to ANE (with the possible exception of R2). Their parent is haplogroup P, and P(xQ,xR) is found primarily Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36325496161911940572017-03-08T03:40:52.873-08:002017-03-08T03:40:52.873-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03998745900697941825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84276872399564820512017-03-08T03:23:05.546-08:002017-03-08T03:23:05.546-08:00@Rob,
Or EinSof
One of the Lengyels was E-M78, and...@Rob,<br /><i>Or EinSof<br />One of the Lengyels was E-M78, and has a call equivalent to EV13. Recall also that a couple of Spanish EN indivuals in Lacan were possibly EV13, based on STRs</i><br /><br />That sample is also SNP tested.<br /><br />https://abload.de/img/v13_mfa_w5snr.pngMfAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01624738204767039283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42634969048656610522017-03-08T02:45:08.702-08:002017-03-08T02:45:08.702-08:00@ Ron
"Or EinSof
One of the Lengyels was E-M7...@ Ron<br />"Or EinSof<br />One of the Lengyels was E-M78, and has a call equivalent to EV13. Recall also that a couple of Spanish EN indivuals in Lacan were possibly EV13, based on STRs"<br /><br />I am saying from so long that, even thought many thought that E-V13 came from the Balkans, Italy has the oldest haplotypes, also of E-L618, and E-V13 hasn't been found so far in the Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26767996840522336362017-03-08T02:30:28.882-08:002017-03-08T02:30:28.882-08:00Or EinSof
One of the Lengyels was E-M78, and has a...Or EinSof<br />One of the Lengyels was E-M78, and has a call equivalent to EV13. Recall also that a couple of Spanish EN indivuals in Lacan were possibly EV13, based on STRsRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78808879430399847852017-03-08T02:17:26.356-08:002017-03-08T02:17:26.356-08:00Where's is the E1b1b? If it came to Europe in ...Where's is the E1b1b? If it came to Europe in Neolithic or was there in the Mesolithic we should have found it. Could modern European E1b1b be mostly Bronze Age or later?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03281901712454837586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55084337530799758332017-03-08T01:40:10.036-08:002017-03-08T01:40:10.036-08:00Yes, 2 of the sites in Spain showed some Bell Beak...Yes, 2 of the sites in Spain showed some Bell Beaker pottery, but they are mainly megalithic collective tombs, where some Bell Beakers were deposited at a late stage. I doubt we'll find any R1b in those kind of sites.<br /><br />The ones from "La Chabola de la Hechicera" (Witch's hut) are too old (c. 3000 BC), but those ones from El Sotillo at least 2 of them are from 2400-2300,Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-48075072826712488192017-03-08T01:11:27.640-08:002017-03-08T01:11:27.640-08:00@ Davidski
"The remains of thirteen individu...@ Davidski<br /><br />"The remains of thirteen individuals, including eleven adults (six of them males) were retrieved. The radiocarbon dates placed the initial use of the site at the Late Chalcolithic period, the Bell Beaker period (4390+30, 4350+30, 4040+30, 4000+40 BP). After a hiatus of about half a millennium, the usage of the structure as funerary place increased during the Middle Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50573459911769125392017-03-07T23:00:12.400-08:002017-03-07T23:00:12.400-08:00Maybe Bell Beaker expert Olympus Mons can tell us,...Maybe Bell Beaker expert Olympus Mons can tell us, if he's not hyperventilating right now?Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26346466329146672662017-03-07T22:47:39.329-08:002017-03-07T22:47:39.329-08:00@ Davidski
But where these samples tested would b...@ Davidski<br /><br />But where these samples tested would be? Perhaps they are saving them for the BB paper, and, anyway, pots doesn't mean men and women: they could belong to the same people tested here and not to BB people. But we'll see...Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59873146475655392032017-03-07T22:33:35.811-08:002017-03-07T22:33:35.811-08:00Totally missed this. It looks like we might actual...Totally missed this. It looks like we might actually have some Iberian Bell Beaker samples in this paper. From the supp info, page 36...<br /><br /><i><b>Dolmen “El Sotillo” (Álava)</b><br /><br />El Sotillo megalithic site is located in the Alava Rioja county (Basque country), between the limit of Laguardia-Guardia and Leza municipalities, at the south of the historical territory of Alava. The Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-38995969338069957152017-03-07T20:45:35.315-08:002017-03-07T20:45:35.315-08:00@ Jamon
""The most ancient recorded sp...@ Jamon <br /><br />""The most ancient recorded specimem possessing this haplogroup is the Mal'ta boy""<br /><br />A common error. He is an extinct side subclade, not "ancestral". <br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72916337303146551272017-03-07T20:43:34.122-08:002017-03-07T20:43:34.122-08:00R1b was in Bolshemys culture.
Which means that Kel...R1b was in Bolshemys culture.<br />Which means that Kel'teminar could be full of R1b. <br />And we have another early divergent branch in S Caucasus.<br />R1b was simply too widespread to be linked to one component.<br />But M269 expanded from one place.Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50383303672211862942017-03-07T19:38:46.989-08:002017-03-07T19:38:46.989-08:00MIR5,6 is listed in Extended Table 1 as C1a2, but ...MIR5,6 is listed in Extended Table 1 as C1a2, but in the supp info text as I2a2a, so I edited the table.<br /><br />https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rG7Pw6ZXhy4/WL97x0B4PJI/AAAAAAAAFZ0/hEzXpu3VtfIn2_gSkl8sgheprsMorYGzwCLcB/s300/Lipson_2017_EDT1b_small.png<br /><br />Although to be honest, I don't know which is correct.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80788784615237503442017-03-07T19:36:46.025-08:002017-03-07T19:36:46.025-08:00You all know that I was banned from Anthrogenica o...You all know that I was banned from Anthrogenica on 2013 and I cannot reply there, but I am seeing that also ADW_1981 thinks to be a geneticist<br /><br />ADW_1981 replied to a thread Parallel ancient genomic transects reveal complex population history of early Europea in Ancient (aDNA) <br />I can on Central Asia. https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1b-M335 <br /><br />I have written about R-M335 Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-17497479874563159532017-03-07T18:52:29.924-08:002017-03-07T18:52:29.924-08:00@Jomon
C1a has been found in Aurignacian and Grav...@Jomon<br /><br />C1a has been found in Aurignacian and Gravettian remains so it dates back to the Upper Paleolithic in Europe.<br /><br />C1b was also found in Upper Paleolithic Europe (Kostenki 14).Plains Wandererhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06757720212862072918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-32245245530813239642017-03-07T18:34:53.328-08:002017-03-07T18:34:53.328-08:00Rob
"We have R1b in European ancients which ...Rob<br /><br />"We have R1b in European ancients which lack ANE completely."<br /><br />That is not the case, Villabruna have some pseudo-ANE.Arielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705005224594803817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7882969238146571272017-03-07T18:14:23.801-08:002017-03-07T18:14:23.801-08:00@Ariel
And neolithic Anatolia had no R of any kind...@Ariel<br />And neolithic Anatolia had no R of any kind.<br /><br /><br />And surely you can prove it.Azarov Dmitryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11487587188902490486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56895806017709562522017-03-07T17:24:22.521-08:002017-03-07T17:24:22.521-08:00@ Matt
"At the moment, it seems in ancient d...@ Matt<br /><br />"At the moment, it seems in ancient dna the solid deep link of R to ANE is MA-1 having R (basal to R1 / R2 or sidebranch), and then, in extremely simplified terms, so far you have WHG related cultures (EHG and WHG proper) usually in Eastern Europe, having the R1 descending clades, possibly from this ANE source, and Iran_Neolithic, which is highly diverged"<br /><br />IRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.com