tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post3522434879450440834..comments2024-03-19T04:18:48.805-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Eight thousand years of natural selection in Europe - take 2Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger204125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9765954179578701272015-10-24T08:54:35.313-07:002015-10-24T08:54:35.313-07:00This means that North Euro-like Sintashta people m...This means that North Euro-like Sintashta people might have had their yDNA from S-C Asia forebears. But it also means that modern S Asians might well have got their yDNA from North Euro-like Sintashta folks. In principle the discrete inheritance of yDNA and autosomes allows for both possibilities. Further arguments are needed to prefer one explanation over the other, and preferably ancient DNA Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39705681751509468332015-10-24T08:35:51.714-07:002015-10-24T08:35:51.714-07:00Nirjhar: „Autosomal Structure is a subject of mass...Nirjhar: „Autosomal Structure is a subject of massive change, i think we give too much credit to it... „<br /><br />That's a strange way to put it. In fact, autosomal DNA is the only DNA that reliably reflects the overall ancestry of an individual. If you want to know where an individual (e.g. a Sintashta guy) draws the vast majority of his ancestors from, autosomal DNA is the thing to look Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-47805732348712562642015-10-15T01:13:43.908-07:002015-10-15T01:13:43.908-07:00@Va_Highlander
If you want to put pioneer Chalcol...@Va_Highlander<br /><br />If you want to put pioneer Chalcolithic herders, who did not to our knowledge even occupy the whole steppe yet, in the same reference class as full-on Iron Age steppe nomad hordes, then the burden of proof is on you - I have no intention of trying to produce probability distributions based on inadequate data and highly contingent processes. You haven't proposed any capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18042901365204949622015-10-14T19:49:30.650-07:002015-10-14T19:49:30.650-07:00Yes, there's more ancient data on the way from...Yes, there's more ancient data on the way from the Near East and also from Central Asia.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-1310220484314905982015-10-14T19:22:47.891-07:002015-10-14T19:22:47.891-07:00Your right, I am really a big amateur compared to ...Your right, I am really a big amateur compared to you and many of the regulars here, you guys are amazing, and intelligent. But it would be really interesting to get more ancient Middle Eastern DNA, do you think we will get any soon? Iranocentristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17536343421591496891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-33469725115587784542015-10-14T19:04:52.309-07:002015-10-14T19:04:52.309-07:00It was a source of massive population movements du...It was a source of massive population movements during the Early and Middle Bronze Age.<br /><br />And the populations streaming out of the steppe at this time had a very specific genetic structure with lots of EHG admixture. Quite unique in West Eurasia.<br /><br />Your somewhat misguided interpretations of PCA gloss over these very important facts.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75262512334222528882015-10-14T18:58:19.976-07:002015-10-14T18:58:19.976-07:00The steppe was a melting pot, not a source.The steppe was a melting pot, not a source.Iranocentristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17536343421591496891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-3381802383800469252015-10-14T18:47:08.192-07:002015-10-14T18:47:08.192-07:00The PCA above suffers from projection bias.
North...The PCA above suffers from projection bias.<br /><br />Northern and Central Europeans are mixtures of Early Bronze Age steppe nomads and Middle Neolithic North-Central Europeans, with some extra WHG admixture in the north. See here...<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQM2FqQ1k2MUJCNDg/view?usp=sharing<br /><br />And as you can also see in this PCA, West Asians are basically Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84098852607865516772015-10-14T18:32:36.290-07:002015-10-14T18:32:36.290-07:00@Iranocentrist,
Wondering where ANE-signal in Eur...@Iranocentrist,<br /><br />Wondering where ANE-signal in Europe came from is so 2014. It comes from "Steppe" shorthand for Pre-Historic Russia and Ukraine. Most blood in 90% of Europe is not Teal or EHG. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42565742258007411482015-10-14T18:04:25.942-07:002015-10-14T18:04:25.942-07:00Looking at the PCA, its obvious to tell that all o...Looking at the PCA, its obvious to tell that all of Central and Northern Europe are in between EHG and Caucasus/West Asia. Look at the big picture all of you Eurocentrists, you are a mixture of EHG and West Asia (Teal). Case closedIranocentristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17536343421591496891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7056639409297086732015-10-14T13:31:57.949-07:002015-10-14T13:31:57.949-07:00@Karl_K,
"How could anyone believe that? You ...@Karl_K,<br />"How could anyone believe that? You didn't use any invented probability to make your case, just facts. What are people supposed to argue about if you just present solid facts?"<br /><br />Are you agreeing or dis agreeing? Anyways what he says is true. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-10413081086273122252015-10-14T11:53:50.901-07:002015-10-14T11:53:50.901-07:00@Va_Highlander
"If you really believe it'...@Va_Highlander<br /><br />"<i>If you really believe it's weak, then propose a number of your own that all rational and objective observers should accept. Based just on what we know and agree about how languages behaved on the Eurasian steppe, how probable is it that a language expanded east?</i>"<br /><br />You are begging the question. By asking us to state what the odds are you Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25907793809820086062015-10-14T11:48:22.262-07:002015-10-14T11:48:22.262-07:00@Davidski
"People expanded east on the stepp...@Davidski<br /><br />"People expanded east on the steppe during the Early Bronze Age, and they didn't mix with anyone for a very long time as they pushed east. We have their genomes so it's now settled."<br /><br />How could anyone believe that? You didn't use any invented probability to make your case, just facts. What are people supposed to argue about if you just present Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7234581089858754002015-10-14T04:07:36.379-07:002015-10-14T04:07:36.379-07:00People expanded east on the steppe during the Earl...People expanded east on the steppe during the Early Bronze Age, and they didn't mix with anyone for a very long time as they pushed east. We have their genomes so it's now settled.<br /><br />And unless you think they turned into mutes as soon as they crossed the Europe/Asia border in the south Urals, then you don't have an argument.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18380379927361247782015-10-14T03:24:36.621-07:002015-10-14T03:24:36.621-07:00capra internetensis:
"Your statistical argum...capra internetensis:<br /><br /><i>"Your statistical argument is quite literally that Iron Age steppe nomads drove each other westward more times than Early Modern Russia colonized Siberia. Does this really strike you as mathematically sound?"</i><br /><br />Probability, not statistics. I am aware of the limitations of the sample size, but, yes, it does. It's all the empirical Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15989782267511343922015-10-13T22:43:00.628-07:002015-10-13T22:43:00.628-07:00@Nirjhar007
The issue Mallory points to is this: ...@Nirjhar007<br /><br />The issue Mallory points to is this: No cereal finds before 2000 bC but the words do spread to indo-arian languages. That would be explainable if a <i>secondary</i> IE settlement happened, one which brought (more) agriculture.<br /><br />Look at this: <br /><br />"<i>Previous work documented that such ancestry appeared east of the Urals beginning at least by the time Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72997014492531615782015-10-13T19:45:31.673-07:002015-10-13T19:45:31.673-07:00"the statistic f4(Basque, Iberia_Chalcolithic..."the statistic f4(Basque, Iberia_Chalcolithic; Yamnaya_Samara,Chimp)=0.00168 is<br />significantly positive (Z=8.1), as is the statistic f4(Spanish, Iberia_Chalcolithic;<br />Yamnaya_Samara, Chimp)= 0.00092 (Z=4.6). This indicates that steppe ancestry occurs in<br />present-day southwestern European populations, and that even the Basques cannot be<br />considered as mixtures of early farmersGerman Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14870703547868386782015-10-13T11:39:10.985-07:002015-10-13T11:39:10.985-07:00"Since the climate worsens, as one migrates e..."<i>Since the climate worsens, as one migrates eastward across the steppe, why was it always advantageous for nomadic steppe-herders to continue pushing eastward into drier and colder conditions?</i>"<br /><br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Koppen_World_Map_%28retouched_version%29.png<br /><br />D is humid continental, B Cold semi-arid continental. <br /><br />I&#Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2836794473197676262015-10-13T10:02:55.251-07:002015-10-13T10:02:55.251-07:00@Va_Highlander
Your statistical argument is quite...@Va_Highlander<br /><br />Your statistical argument is quite literally that Iron Age steppe nomads drove each other westward more times than Early Modern Russia colonized Siberia. Does this really strike you as mathematically sound?<br /><br />Now you can say that Copper-Bronze Age steppe pastoralists were more similar to Iron Age steppe nomads than they were to Early Modern Russians, which is capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22653054358437750552015-10-13T09:11:06.328-07:002015-10-13T09:11:06.328-07:00capra internetensis:
"Therefore, pioneer ste...capra internetensis:<br /><br /><i>"Therefore, pioneer steppe pastoralists with a different subsistence regime, prior to even the invention of the chariot let alone the kind of cavalry that would render it obsolete, should operate in the same way?"</i><br /><br />Okay. You're saying that what was special about PIE is that it did not have the admittedly overwhelming advantages of Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-43851088839099292502015-10-13T08:33:35.509-07:002015-10-13T08:33:35.509-07:00@Va_Highlander
Iron Age and later nomads who popu...@Va_Highlander<br /><br />Iron Age and later nomads who populated the whole of the Eurasian steppe, subsisting by a fully-developed pastoral regime and using advanced cavalry tactics and equipment with the ability to organize large armies, tended to expand from east to west.<br /><br />Therefore, pioneer steppe pastoralists with a different subsistence regime, prior to even the invention of the capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52045305006531745392015-10-13T06:21:06.642-07:002015-10-13T06:21:06.642-07:00epoch2013:
"However, it is bogus statistics....epoch2013:<br /><br /><i>"However, it is bogus statistics. Even if we have a number of historical events going east to west it doesn't really imply anything for the odds of IE to go eastward."</i><br /><br />So, essentially, the rich just toss empiricism to the wind and assume observed behavior tells us nothing informative about the world. Thanks. That explains quite a bit.<br /><brVa_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64070966370225482402015-10-13T05:59:57.641-07:002015-10-13T05:59:57.641-07:00The Natural-selection part of the paper.
http://w...The Natural-selection part of the paper.<br /><br />http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5602-Traits-that-were-Selected-for-in-the-last-8-000-years<br /><br />Lactose Tolerance, Pale skin, and reduced body fat have the strongest signal of selection. Lactose Tolerance and reduced body fat have been risen a lot in frequency even in the last 4,000 years.Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84382433111285643722015-10-13T05:56:08.306-07:002015-10-13T05:56:08.306-07:00@VA_Highlander
So, arguing a fortiori, we can say...@VA_Highlander<br /><br /><i>So, arguing a fortiori, we can say that the likelihood of any language expanding east across the step is 1-in-3 and be confident that the actual probability is much lower. Any model entailing an expansion east across the steppe must overcome those odds and, so far, I don't see the steppe hypothesis doing so.</i><br /><br />The remark was answer to this. However, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-71740943932663592922015-10-13T04:48:25.803-07:002015-10-13T04:48:25.803-07:00epoch2013:
"I'll be gentle and call this...epoch2013:<br /><br /><i>"I'll be gentle and call this poor mans statistics ;)"</i><br /><br />How very disappointing. In answer to our fervent prayers, a rich man happens by and all he can offer is condescension.<br /><br />What was so special about PIE? What compels you to exclude it from the reference class of all languages known to have expanded across the Eurasian steppe? How Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.com