tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post3618472615743502533..comments2024-03-28T08:39:32.244-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Armenian confirmation biasDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34040121174465005952017-11-30T20:24:42.866-08:002017-11-30T20:24:42.866-08:00Good methodology seeks to avoid confirmation bias,...Good methodology seeks to avoid confirmation bias, despite individual subjectivity, and cultural and ideological leanings. So the results of this study should be examined with regard to the methodology and then the results. It is interesting that few question 'Caucasian' ethnocentric biases in Western Europe or the US, where "Caucasian" is a label that has lost its connection RWYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162758490079946511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72866566679683463862017-07-28T01:37:10.148-07:002017-07-28T01:37:10.148-07:00Btw Reich lab also has samples from same periods (...Btw Reich lab also has samples from same periods ( Neolithich, Chal, EBA) Afaik they will publish high quality genome wide data. So we can compare their conclusions to this one.<br /><br />This team is also currently working on extracting genome wide data. And as Ashot Margaryan said in that interview their conclusions can change.<br /><br />But one thing is sure. The comparison of Neolithic Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79646866747134375762017-07-28T01:30:27.652-07:002017-07-28T01:30:27.652-07:00Davidski
**It's an interesting question who w...Davidski<br /><br />**It's an interesting question who was reviewing this paper and how they missed this problem.**<br /><br />I also ask myself this question. Certainly I don't agree with their conclusions. And I see nothing pro-Armenian in their claims that cultural and linguistic shifts occurred in SC without genetic shifts ( in this case mitogenes ). <br /><br />But in general I am Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69462282307777325122017-07-20T02:14:11.622-07:002017-07-20T02:14:11.622-07:00The big problem is that the paper doesn't prov...The big problem is that the paper doesn't prove 8,000 years of total, or even near total, maternal/mtDNA continuity in Armenia.<br /><br />It's an interesting question who was reviewing this paper and how they missed this problem.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15108505390443639642017-07-20T01:40:47.580-07:002017-07-20T01:40:47.580-07:00mooreisbetter
""This paper is likely ab...mooreisbetter<br /><br />""This paper is likely about Nagorno Karabakh.""<br /><br />Woow. And Olalde's paper is about leftism and promigrationistic politics in Europe. :)<br /><br />http://eurogenes.blogspot.am/2017/07/ashg-2017-crowdfunding-drive.htmlAramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26338992679554661602017-07-20T01:38:56.821-07:002017-07-20T01:38:56.821-07:00George
Most probably You didn't read the pape...George<br /><br />Most probably You didn't read the paper, otherwise You would note this part.<br /><br />""one would expect to observe a somewhat similar pattern of matrilineal genetic continuity in other parts of this region, i.e., Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenian Highland (partially modern day Eastern Turkey and North-West Iran). Future studies should, however, prioritize to Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84577307751972151842017-07-11T13:39:24.442-07:002017-07-11T13:39:24.442-07:00@ mooreisbetter
Of course I completely agree with...@ mooreisbetter<br /><br />Of course I completely agree with you that many papers (perhaps pretty all) are biased, I didn't agree with what you said that Italian geneticists from Northern Italy were biased about Southern Italians. That isn't true, above all for the fact that pretty all the Italian geneticists are leftists, and "racism" isn't the ideology of leftists. Of Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54695916712426621882017-07-11T12:34:43.568-07:002017-07-11T12:34:43.568-07:00continue..
there is absolutely no modern populati...continue..<br /><br />there is absolutely no modern population that can claim for a continuity of it's ethnicity for over 6000 years, let alone 8000 years.<br /><br />If you say population A has inherited allot of ancestry from people living in the region 8000 years ago that is correct.<br /><br />But as some people correctly suggested here to me it looks like some individuals within the Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83970965525869861692017-07-11T12:16:59.040-07:002017-07-11T12:16:59.040-07:00mooreisbetter
"It raises an important questi...mooreisbetter<br /><br />"It raises an important question too, in academia, which I don't think is discussed frankly often enough. The lead author of the study, as well as its biggest promoter, are themselves of Armenian heritage. It seems that there are powerful psychological and ethnocentrist reasons why scientists of a certain heritage would argue for continuity and "pureness&Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76120284667592189582017-07-11T12:12:45.942-07:002017-07-11T12:12:45.942-07:00I didn't want to call it out but there is defi...I didn't want to call it out but there is definitely/absolutely a Armenian confirmation bias in many recent DNA studies. Reminds me of the early Yamnaya papers claiming the Near Eastern part of Yamnaya would be Armenian like while there were literally half a dozen population that fitted better as proxy for this admixture.Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50459644491638402342017-07-11T10:48:14.929-07:002017-07-11T10:48:14.929-07:00@Gioiello. This thread is about confirmation bias...@Gioiello. This thread is about confirmation biases and how they played into this paper, and I raised the fact that they are often present, which results in bad science. The facts remain that Europeans are an extremely homogenous grouping of people. Extremely homogenous. Italians, as a peninsular people, are an extremely homogenous subset of that extremely homogenous grouping of people. Yet mooreisbetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522884275516185288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-3032412602038888992017-07-11T09:55:01.568-07:002017-07-11T09:55:01.568-07:00From the paper:
"Coalescence-based analyses ...From the paper:<br /><br />"Coalescence-based analyses suggest that the population size in this region rapidly increased after the Last Glacial Maximum ca. 18 kya."<br /><br />There's a major problem with this blind use of the term "LGM".<br /><br />Evry updated climatologist and ice-age-geologist knows that the Eurasian populations of people and other terrestial batmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46627942994500838352017-07-11T09:01:15.068-07:002017-07-11T09:01:15.068-07:00@ Davidski
You are right. The blog is yours, but ...@ Davidski<br /><br />You are right. The blog is yours, but you, like YFull with me (not counting all the other blogs and fora which banned me) cannot censure us and not the others. Of course Roy King is an African-American from the mother side, but I suppose he has also an Y... and ak2014b has good arguments. Otherwise only the "truth" of these persons is ligitimate, and never ours. Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21596001662699312452017-07-11T08:45:34.216-07:002017-07-11T08:45:34.216-07:00Please don't discus or speculate about the peo...Please don't discus or speculate about the people posting in the comments here. Take it elsewhere, like e-mail.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-57987233702507972522017-07-11T00:32:47.868-07:002017-07-11T00:32:47.868-07:00The paper is about trying to paint Armenians as th...The paper is about trying to paint Armenians as the most autochthonous people in the region. <br />Had Azeri scientist ran this he would have gotten similar "results" albeit with the "conclusion" that its who have enjoyed full ethnic continuityGeorge Okromchedlishvilihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10084840993572421367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46786574500373269632017-07-10T16:55:50.357-07:002017-07-10T16:55:50.357-07:00@moreisbetter
You raise an interesting point, alth...@moreisbetter<br />You raise an interesting point, although it is not universal that individual scientist favor models amplifying their personal heritage. Case in point: My colleague, Peter Underhill, is of Polish ancestry--his name is an Anglicized version of under the foothills (something like Podgorny--maybe Davidski knows the Slavic name), yet Peter proposed that R1a1-M417 originates in Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02272252711544391571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27514822232865603732017-07-10T15:06:28.398-07:002017-07-10T15:06:28.398-07:00This paper is at least as much about Nagorno-Karab...This paper is at least as much about Nagorno-Karabakh as mtDNA.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_RepublicDavidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29497972322634111912017-07-10T14:54:08.175-07:002017-07-10T14:54:08.175-07:00mtDNA has very low information content. But... it ...mtDNA has very low information content. But... it is the easiest and cheapest to sequence from both modern and ancient samples.<br /><br />And the scientific groups most concerned with money... also usually have the lowest quality work. It's a feedback cycle.<br /><br />But on the other hand, it is a totally different kind of information, and it is what it is. You can't make the Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54935135553771715142017-07-10T13:07:01.833-07:002017-07-10T13:07:01.833-07:00There were North Caucasian Huns which were Christi...There were North Caucasian Huns which were Christianized by Armenians around ~500-600 AD. There were also Christianized Tatars 1000+ AD. I've seen a lot of Armenians they can range from Chechen to Dark Skinned Arabs. anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05600506397173422332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18275263760134388012017-07-10T10:56:32.829-07:002017-07-10T10:56:32.829-07:00Honestly that paper reeked of nationalistic sort o...Honestly that paper reeked of nationalistic sort of elements,they kept on mentioning not having Turkish / East Eurasian Mtdna. Some of those Mtdna lineages are clearly from the northern steppe .Ramihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08212726536809592734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15770145993487903642017-07-10T10:19:15.745-07:002017-07-10T10:19:15.745-07:00@ moreisbetter
"As an aside, if you look at m...@ moreisbetter<br />"As an aside, if you look at many of the papers that argue for big Northern and Southern Italian differences, they are authored by Northern Italians. We see this type of confirmation bias a lot".<br /> <br />I find this adfirmation only stupid, for many reasons:<br />1) differences between Northern and Southern Italy there are, due to different histories, and also toGioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23961749725133834762017-07-10T09:14:37.369-07:002017-07-10T09:14:37.369-07:00This will be a shock: but I agree with everything ...This will be a shock: but I agree with everything Davidski posted here. This study employed questionable methodology, at best.<br /><br />It raises an important question too, in academia, which I don't think is discussed frankly often enough. The lead author of the study, as well as its biggest promoter, are themselves of Armenian heritage. It seems that there are powerful psychological mooreisbetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522884275516185288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30493136511458180002017-07-10T04:22:40.459-07:002017-07-10T04:22:40.459-07:00Il mio aplotipo è basale, poiché la mutazione T112...Il mio aplotipo è basale, poiché la mutazione T11204C non è presente in una linea americana da Stàffoli (Pisa) e legata alla mia non più di 5 generazioni fa.<br />L'altro marker in eteroplasmia era 16093, anch'esso fissato in<br />5. JQ704056 Behar K1a1b1e 07-APR-2012 <br />A73G A263G 315.1C C497T A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8521G A8860G G9055A T9698C G9932A Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55674187727488552152017-07-10T04:22:01.804-07:002017-07-10T04:22:01.804-07:00Of course I ridiculized this pretension, and could...Of course I ridiculized this pretension, and could do more, but then you say that I am not respectful with all these said scholars:<br />There is also an mt K1a1b1e like mine but with the extra mutations 114T 189G 16093C. I have the extra mutation 11204C, but basal subclades are found in Tuscany. There is someone who does think that this haplogroup came from Caucasus?<br />3. HQ176413(Italy) Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90071758907060057932017-07-10T03:29:03.030-07:002017-07-10T03:29:03.030-07:00Yeah, but the methods in this paper are off the wa...Yeah, but the methods in this paper are off the wall considering what they're testing and what they're claiming.<br /><br />Crazy.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.com