tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post4449118888493047820..comments2024-03-28T08:39:32.244-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Ancient population shifts in western Iberia (Martiniano et al. 2017 preprint)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-47255131381975935172017-05-17T15:47:32.332-07:002017-05-17T15:47:32.332-07:00"Modern people have post-BA CHG admixture bro..."Modern people have post-BA CHG admixture brought by yDNA J and E folks, specially in southern Europe."<br /><br />Basques possess teal admixture despite near zero levels of these two haplogroups.Rafshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746094202823415912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-33094213906268051862017-05-15T08:22:04.256-07:002017-05-15T08:22:04.256-07:00P Piranha:
"I admit there is no good explanat...P Piranha:<br />"I admit there is no good explanation for why N African ancestry peaks in Galicia instead of Andalusia"<br /><br />Actually N African ancestry doesn't peaks in Galicia proper, but in Leon, east of Galicia. In Galicia E-M81 is found at a 4% (N=292 Galician males, ref. goo.gl/nb2TfN), but if falls from a 8% in eastern Galicia, next to Leon, to 1% in the coastal areas. Cossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-16295966305953235042017-05-15T07:17:57.851-07:002017-05-15T07:17:57.851-07:00so much talk about copper...
And just a few days a...so much talk about copper...<br />And just a few days ago, in Perdigoes, this copper tool just got dug. And I asked A C valera and he says context is clearly first half 3rd millennia.<br /><br />https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9XOM16YOA8Y/WRId-s2dMLI/AAAAAAAAFoo/lmnKGeshkJU7DBgEMyl2G6239Le6FhCjACLcB/s400/IMG_4701.JPG<br /><br /><br />So many samples and inhumations in Perdigoes and many bell beakers Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68271463705178982002017-05-14T15:05:08.048-07:002017-05-14T15:05:08.048-07:00...to be even more clear.
the paper avoids the all......to be even more clear.<br />the paper avoids the all VNSP complex and jump from really neolithic people to bronze age Atalaia complex.<br /><br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Iberia_Bronze.gif<br /><br />Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28186132774151768932017-05-14T14:29:14.832-07:002017-05-14T14:29:14.832-07:00Bad Timing. When paper came out was about to go to...Bad Timing. When paper came out was about to go to Chigado and only this morning arrived back in Lisbon. Will try to post several Points. <br />This is Point A<br />I could peep into comments. And totally agree withn Richard Rocca. If there was a sentence that kills my thesis is how Rui Martiniano wrote it:<br /><i>"Unlike contemporaries elsewhere (but similarly to earlier Hungarian BA), Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-41110611207701694292017-05-14T07:24:18.228-07:002017-05-14T07:24:18.228-07:00Several new Hungarian BBC genomes carry 50%+ Stepp...Several new Hungarian BBC genomes carry 50%+ Steppe ancestry. One has 74% and R1b Z2103 while a female from the same cemetary had 0%.<br /><br />Point is there was plenty of diversity in LNBA Hungary.Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89856861253937721622017-05-14T05:58:32.385-07:002017-05-14T05:58:32.385-07:00P Piranha
"I admit there is no good explanat...P Piranha<br /><br />"I admit there is no good explanation for why N African ancestry peaks in Galicia instead of Andalusia"<br /><br />a simple explanation would be a connection between NW Africa and the Atlantic Megalith culture. if the problem with that is<br /><br />"but there is little evidence of North African ancestry in early Iberian BB nor late incoming C European BB Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-12490424852830616992017-05-13T15:02:03.113-07:002017-05-13T15:02:03.113-07:00@ Matt
I don't think they will fall there; th...@ Matt<br /><br />I don't think they will fall there; the average of the entire Hungary_BA is 20% Steppe ancestry, and EBA Balkans have only 9% on average, so they certainly wouldn't. They would be as western, or even more western, than Basques. As for the LBA Balkans, they need to have extra ancestry from CHG, say from Armenia_EBA, to fall in that position you marked out, and its not P Piranhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07594106242948318068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-92202546449837442912017-05-13T14:56:37.905-07:002017-05-13T14:56:37.905-07:00@ Andre
I admit there is no good explanation for ...@ Andre<br /><br />I admit there is no good explanation for why N African ancestry peaks in Galicia instead of Andalusia, but there is little evidence of North African ancestry in early Iberian BB nor late incoming C European BB elites, so that leaves rapid movement of people into Iberia via non-elites in the late BA if we want it to take place in the BA, since we need a 10% figure. Is there any P Piranhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07594106242948318068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80647223927854081492017-05-12T12:34:58.296-07:002017-05-12T12:34:58.296-07:00@P Piranha, OK, I have a bit more sympathy with wh...@P Piranha, OK, I have a bit more sympathy with where you're coming from and appreciate that you've gone looked at the samples in more depth to build your conclusions.<br /><br />Though I would say, that still doesn't seem like good evidence for a southern influx to me necessarily. Even though the samples are late, there could still have been high AN populations about and heterogenityMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24360579417388658642017-05-12T09:26:28.058-07:002017-05-12T09:26:28.058-07:00André de Vasconcelos said...
"How could it be...André de Vasconcelos said...<br />"How could it be very early ancestry if these samples are from ~1800BC and we find nothing like it anywhere else?"<br /><br />I'm working from the premise (maybe wrong?) of them having steppe but not CHG and *if* that was true then the two options i can think of are:<br />- they came in a time before the ehg + chg mix<br />or<br />- they came from aGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-48872553429204672412017-05-12T06:18:51.877-07:002017-05-12T06:18:51.877-07:00@Anthro
You're right, but these are just 3 gu...@Anthro<br /><br />You're right, but these are just 3 guys anyway, there's a very good chance they do not represent the whole population living along the western fringes of Iberia at the time.<br />I'm also curious to see how these samples relate to modern Iberians, particularly those in the south, but the supplementary material isn't avaliable yet.<br /><br />@Piranha<br />"André de Vasconceloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14661586310311442995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19934789719045403712017-05-12T04:28:51.550-07:002017-05-12T04:28:51.550-07:00The Bronze Age and Iron Age Balkan samples seem to...The Bronze Age and Iron Age Balkan samples seem to have the Yamnaya orange at some 20% taken all together and most are (omitting the 0 and 60%+) 5-30% steppe or so. Btw, I didn't see any actual breakdowns of the component percentages in the supplements, are there any?<br /><br />That's comparable to Albanians and mainland Greeks, while the rest of the Balkans seems to have some 30-40%. OfAlogohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12311735856824330486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59270403460031263442017-05-12T03:08:53.994-07:002017-05-12T03:08:53.994-07:00These 3 bronze age individuals with steppe ancestr...These 3 bronze age individuals with steppe ancestry from Portugal date from around 1800 BCE but in the Bell Beaker paper 2 of the samples from Brugos (~2400 BCE) also show steppe ancestry even though the rest doesn't.<br /><br />I wonder if this shows the first people with steppe admixture reached the Iberian peninsula with boats via somewhere in atlantic northwestern Europe, they landed in Josep Coderchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11818389718589201753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-16229181945275121722017-05-12T01:18:47.070-07:002017-05-12T01:18:47.070-07:00@ Matt
Matt, if you look at their ADMIXTURE estim...@ Matt<br /><br />Matt, if you look at their ADMIXTURE estimates, early Bronze Age Balkans have only ~9% Steppe ancestry on average. A more detailed breakdown can be found in this post:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10574-Weird-phenomena-in-Southeast-Europe-during-EBA-and-implications-for-IE-spread&p=233868&viewfull=1#post233868" rel="nofollow">Link</a><brP Piranhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07594106242948318068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30578107741576458812017-05-12T01:07:25.864-07:002017-05-12T01:07:25.864-07:00@Ariel: But after all is similar to the Davidisky&...@Ariel: <i>But after all is similar to the Davidisky's one</i> Very similar, but look at the distances between EHG and CHG from moderns in Davidski's PCA vs the projected PCA. As well, the Yamnaya-Bronze Age cline cuts right through the moderns in Davidski's PCA, for NW Europe, and Balto-Slavic populations have a signature of additional Kunda/Narva related admixture. Some samples evenMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24177895353834085292017-05-11T22:17:01.264-07:002017-05-11T22:17:01.264-07:00Simon W, are you kidding me? The authors said the ...Simon W, are you kidding me? The authors said the opposite of what you did:<br /><br />"However, the limited nature of this introgression contrasts with the major Steppe migration turnovers within third Millennium northern Europe and echoes the survival of non-Indo-European language in Iberia. "mooreisbetterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17522884275516185288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34616337905797797802017-05-11T20:07:56.436-07:002017-05-11T20:07:56.436-07:00"so maybe the best spots were already taken s..."so maybe the best spots were already taken so the new arrivals were concentrated in the Basque region."<br /><br />assuming here the original atlantic megalith culture people were G2 and I2Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23163674154993419712017-05-11T19:28:43.140-07:002017-05-11T19:28:43.140-07:00André de Vasconcelos said...
"Anyway, R1b1a2a...André de Vasconcelos said...<br />"Anyway, R1b1a2a1a2 (P312) is present on the three MBA male samples, so thereabouts should be when R1b M269 and steppe ancestry got into Iberia"<br /><br />War Lord said...<br />"...and reached 87% frequency in Basques via a miracle, despite that their proportion of the 'steppe' ancestry is minimal?"<br /><br />If they were miners/Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76110556483890385672017-05-11T19:16:06.157-07:002017-05-11T19:16:06.157-07:00André de Vasconcelos said...
"What's ...André de Vasconcelos said...<br /><br />"What's 'steppe ancestry' then, if it has no CGH?"<br /><br />1) very early steppe ancestry before mixing with CHG?<br />2) steppe ancestry from a region that didn't mix with CHG?<br /><br />#<br /><br />"Does this mean that R1b carriers arrived in such a low frequency that they were not numerous enough to impose their own Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80894863510449981072017-05-11T18:50:34.196-07:002017-05-11T18:50:34.196-07:00@RichardHoltman
We already know what true "...@RichardHoltman <br /><br />We already know what true "AR1an" haplogroup is lol MaxThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12920295419805648337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27047579764993777302017-05-11T18:35:17.758-07:002017-05-11T18:35:17.758-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15327139149611352798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-61143957606841356682017-05-11T17:13:33.370-07:002017-05-11T17:13:33.370-07:00Tepecik-Citflik shouldn't be there, that's...Tepecik-Citflik shouldn't be there, that's for sure. Maybe it had some Iran Neolithic ancestry, but yes there are problem with the PCA. But after all is similar to the Davidisky's one (http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/search?updated-max=2017-04-29T00:02:00-07:00&max-results=10). Some Hungary BA samples are similar in position to the Bronze Balkans that we have in this paper. BB are Arielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705005224594803817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-40717741665795811022017-05-11T17:08:39.611-07:002017-05-11T17:08:39.611-07:00@ Matt
What did you think of their sex-biased anal...@ Matt<br />What did you think of their sex-biased analysis wrt SEE ? <br />At a zoomed out look, and without raw datantwt available, it doesn't seem many steppe Y haplogroups made it in. There's a Z2105 in Vucedol, and a curious Z93 later on in Bulgaria Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34071476169896344372017-05-11T16:54:42.684-07:002017-05-11T16:54:42.684-07:00@Ariel, I think it's likely at least OK for sh...@Ariel, I think it's likely at least OK for showing differences of ancients relative to each other (Fig 1B), as they're all projected, but I don't think you could take the position of non-projected moderns relative to projected ancients literally. E.g. NW Europe is not likely to have an excess of HG ancestry compared to CE Bell Beakers, when the qpAdm and ADMIXTURE say it's eitherMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.com