tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post4606473877155507720..comments2024-03-19T00:15:33.844-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Steppe boys, farmer girlsDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger205125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49163303668089928422017-06-06T04:47:48.749-07:002017-06-06T04:47:48.749-07:00Just saying thank you! And thank you! This page is...Just saying thank you! And thank you! This page is super helpful in my research. And if I've already thanked you in the enormous comment section, well sorry.jvhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12283765275775165180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18399204709389435302016-11-15T09:59:21.813-08:002016-11-15T09:59:21.813-08:00@ vespertilio
I fought for Europe (not only for I...@ vespertilio<br /><br />I fought for Europe (not only for Italy) against who wanted to make us think that "Ex Oriente lux", thus an origin in Northern or in Eastern Europe is the same good to me.<br /><br />"The linguists that have worked on the Paleolithic Continuation Theory counts a lot more than one Italian".<br /><br />Alinei and the most part of the other theorists of Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14913192816275657332016-11-15T09:10:04.180-08:002016-11-15T09:10:04.180-08:00@Gioiello
Please don't distract the focus - o...@Gioiello<br /><br />Please don't distract the focus - or start cherry-picking facts to prove your ideas. <br /><br />The linguists that have worked on the Paleolithic Continuation Theory counts a lot more than one Italian. Though, there's no doubt that Dr. Alinei was the pioneer that laid it all out in the first place, during his period as a senior professor at Utrecht during the batmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24740726422713093052016-11-12T10:02:26.539-08:002016-11-12T10:02:26.539-08:00The average (~neutral) mutation rate of mtDNA is ...The average (~neutral) mutation rate of mtDNA is around 1 SNP in 2500 years. For Y DNA more like 1 SNP in 100 years.<br /><br />So what I'm wondering is if maternal lineages underwent a rapid proliferation, how would you even be able to determine the time scale?capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82810034473884093642016-11-05T01:48:28.396-07:002016-11-05T01:48:28.396-07:00@ vespertilio
I thank you for your links. Of cour...@ vespertilio<br /><br />I thank you for your links. Of course I did know Alinei and the other colleagues of his, who are above all Italians and wrote mainly in Italian. I'd say that Alinei is a pancontinuist (I am a continuist too, but con juicio).<br />I don't believe in a continuity of the Neolatin dialects, of the German presence in the South (where other peoples lived from Rhaetians Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-87142732167729377702016-11-04T23:19:30.276-07:002016-11-04T23:19:30.276-07:00@ KarlK
Ok. So we should probably rephrase what w...@ KarlK<br /><br />Ok. So we should probably rephrase what we're discussing to 'the Northwest Fringe of Europe'. <br />In addition, some more aDNA from Bronze Age Western Europe would be helpful, in addition to resolving the lingering dating issues, so we can more concretely establish the pace of these hypothesized changes. <br />Indeed, the rapid growth of major lineages of L11 couldRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44657248298549412212016-11-04T21:18:08.132-07:002016-11-04T21:18:08.132-07:00@RK
"However what about the Bronze Age speci...@RK<br /><br />"However what about the Bronze Age specifically made it such that the ratio crashed to 1:17?"<br /><br />The most obvious answer is metals. Flint or chert or (later) other hard stones did not require any non-obvious technology to produce. You just had to know where to look. Copper too was pretty simple, but required some technology, but overall no harder to produce than Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-43090730594869466472016-11-04T21:07:10.409-07:002016-11-04T21:07:10.409-07:00@Rob
"This certainly doesn't appear to m...@Rob<br /><br />"This certainly doesn't appear to mirror the 1:17 lineage crash purported to have occurred in the Bronze Age."<br /><br />This only becomes really obvious when looking at the whole Y chromosome trees.<br /><br />Starting in the Bronze age, there is a major shift in the pattern of divergence (the tree-like structure) of the population, but only for men, and only some Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14747600869438121002016-11-04T21:03:29.954-07:002016-11-04T21:03:29.954-07:00"Mathematically, it would be difficult for th..."Mathematically, it would be difficult for that to be true! But I know what you mean - explosive lineage growth for females, is more difficult."<br /><br />Good catch. I guess 'on average' was the wrong way to phrase it. On average every child has exactly one mother and one father.<br /><br />I meant that men have a much higher variance in their number of children.Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-58133327536371945092016-11-04T19:56:37.607-07:002016-11-04T19:56:37.607-07:00@ RK
"However what about the Bronze Age spec...@ RK<br /><br />"However what about the Bronze Age specifically made it such that the ratio crashed to 1:17"<br /><br />Let's enumerate the Bronze Age lineages we have so far: <br /><br />Unetice<br />R1a<br />I2a2<br />I2c <br /><br />BA Hungary <br />I2a2 x4 <br />J2 <br />R1b x2 <br /><br />Late copper age/ Bronze Age Spain<br />I2a2 x 3<br /><br />Sweden<br />I1, R1a, R1b<br /><Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36177993066502602372016-11-04T16:44:19.340-07:002016-11-04T16:44:19.340-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ryukendo Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00824502055247415801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90379319026748625292016-11-04T13:11:46.016-07:002016-11-04T13:11:46.016-07:00Karl_K because females on average have less childr...Karl_K <i>because females on average have less children than men on average</i><br /><br />Mathematically, it would be difficult for that to be true! But I know what you mean - explosive lineage growth for females, is more difficult.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80219187892274049082016-11-04T13:06:07.368-07:002016-11-04T13:06:07.368-07:00@ Gioiello
There are some very interesting thread...@ Gioiello<br /><br />There are some very interesting threads between the Vendic/Uralian and the Vedic, Sumeerian and Old-Egyptian languages, that may indicate ancient connections. I think Asko Parpola is still working on these issues.<br /><br />Though - around the Baltics we have some millennia of known inter-action between 'vends' and 'goths' of the Baltic Ocean. Moreover - thebatmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52319403937453586102016-11-04T12:54:17.853-07:002016-11-04T12:54:17.853-07:00@ RK
"Just wanted to point out that nothing ...<br /><br />@ RK<br /><br />"Just wanted to point out that nothing in the evidence would indicate extensive polygamy or great hierarchy in CW or BB, certainly nothing like level of complexity and hierarchy seen in early modern Swaziland or Morocco"<br /><br /><br />To investigate this further you may need to check how the mutational processes would look like in a dynastical batmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78962876610593615712016-11-04T12:00:44.100-07:002016-11-04T12:00:44.100-07:00@karlk
OK finally a good case for a Malthusian sce...@karlk<br />OK finally a good case for a Malthusian scenario.<br />Accumulated resources/wealth being a component reproductive success<br /><br />An equilibrium is still needed between say a coal miner in pre-industrial Britain ... an actual wealth creator vs someone who accumulates/trades in coal.<br /><br />What differential advantage would a a steppe pastoralist have vs a central european postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24321518282452140232016-11-04T02:12:10.199-07:002016-11-04T02:12:10.199-07:00"A child from a random poor family could not ..."A child from a random poor family could not ever have that kind of success except in very lucky circumstances, whereas the child of a wealthy agriculturalist was basically assured of success from birth."<br /><br />And by "child" I actually mean son. This kind of skewed haplogroup statistic wouldn't really appear if the wealth was passed down through the female line, Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79536951629593184992016-11-04T01:29:13.348-07:002016-11-04T01:29:13.348-07:00@RK
"Just wanted to point out that nothing i...@RK<br /><br />"Just wanted to point out that nothing in the evidence would indicate extensive polygamy or great hierarchy in CW or BB, certainly nothing like level of complexity and hierarchy seen in early modern Swaziland or Morocco"<br /><br />Of course. But you don't need extensive polygamy, just a little.<br /><br />And even in totally monogamous cultures, if wealth and status Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39566253168597657542016-11-03T18:19:38.376-07:002016-11-03T18:19:38.376-07:00@ batman
"The broad range of cognates (like &...@ batman<br />"The broad range of cognates (like "sisar"/"sistar"/"syster"/sister, sib-ling, etc.) confirms this common origin".<br /><br />I have extensively spoken about that here in this blog answering Kristiina who didn't answer me: I think that these words entered Uralic languages (and others in Altaic ones) from an Indo.European community speakingGioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65624718029623626512016-11-03T16:39:13.939-07:002016-11-03T16:39:13.939-07:00Just wanted to point out that nothing in the evide...Just wanted to point out that nothing in the evidence would indicate extensive polygamy or great hierarchy in CW or BB, certainly nothing like level of complexity and hierarchy seen in early modern Swaziland or Morocco, which spanned 10,000s up to millions of individuals. I would argue that the level of social hierarchy in EBA Europe N of the Alps may even be lower than the level found among Ryukendo Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00824502055247415801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-51792213139021366112016-11-03T14:33:29.205-07:002016-11-03T14:33:29.205-07:00One may even note the myths of the river Bug, name...One may even note the myths of the river Bug, named after the dynastical ancestor (Bug, Bog, Bok) of the old, agricultural populations of SE Europe.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug_River#/media/File:Man_statue_in_Lazenki.JPGbatmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-87219712764048415342016-11-03T14:32:19.485-07:002016-11-03T14:32:19.485-07:00Looking at the present distribution of R1a/R1b it&...Looking at the present distribution of R1a/R1b it's pretty obvious that the Eurasian variations of R1 have divided east versus west, from a common origin in the central part of Europe. The split could have happened before or at the very start of the Holocene optimum, some 9.000 yrs ago. Though, it would still take some millenia before these cultures had evolved and reached the numbers batmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-8192287351692911632016-11-03T14:31:03.209-07:002016-11-03T14:31:03.209-07:00he success-rate of the famer-kings and their entir...he success-rate of the famer-kings and their entire "aets" (tribes/etnicities) were formidabel, as can be seen in the archaeological records of the milk- and starch-consuming cattle- and cereal-farmers of Europe and northern Asia. Who eventually, some 7.000 yrs ago, reached northern Africa.<br /><br />The connection between the spread of agriculture, diary-consumprion and hgs R1a/R1b batmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-17581544186633904582016-11-03T14:29:05.112-07:002016-11-03T14:29:05.112-07:00The first, initial spread after the Mass Extinctiv...The first, initial spread after the Mass Extinctive period called Younger Dryas is normally seen as the start of "The Mesolithic" - performed by the few refugiants that survived. <br /><br />The result of the Paleolithic/Mesolithic transitory phase are today somewhat known, in terms of archeology and genetics. The linguistic story is still to be defined by facts, although the later batmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-8441122344107907522016-11-03T11:38:22.131-07:002016-11-03T11:38:22.131-07:00Thus... If you want to say that R1a and R1b expand...Thus... If you want to say that R1a and R1b expanded from Baltic, show me R-V88, R-V88-M18, R1b1-L389+, R-M335, R-M269*, R-Z2110*, R-L51* from Baltic, and why to link Uralic with IE? The link is very old, at a post-Nostratic level, and you know very well that what is in the Baltic was before Southward, both the mt and the Y. Those places are cold: you shouldn't have problem to find there aDNAGioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55543680243213402272016-11-03T11:25:48.869-07:002016-11-03T11:25:48.869-07:00@ Gioiello
As said - the spread of the I-E/Urali...@ Gioiello<br /><br /><br />As said - the spread of the I-E/Uralian languages concur with the spread of the mesolithic y-lines descending from a LCA of macrogroup CF that survived the severe but not terminal LGM - as well as the sudden cold, deadly and terminal cold-dip of the Younger Dryas.<br /><br />The bottle-neck of Eurasias arctic species - humans included - was NOT created by the LGM, as batmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.com