tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post4607963973493543498..comments2024-03-19T00:15:33.844-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Near Eastern admixture in Yamnaya: a couple of graphs + some ideasDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-87017013329504928062015-10-05T06:48:57.671-07:002015-10-05T06:48:57.671-07:00capra internetensis:
"From what I have seen ...capra internetensis:<br /><br /><i>"From what I have seen there is no actual evidence of metal production from Afanasievo context; only a reference to a very old report of ancient mining tools that *might* have been from Afanasievo period."</i><br /><br />Many thanks for looking. That agrees with what I'm seeing as well.<br /><br />Rob:<br /><br /><i>"Then if Afansievo were Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-86794808688591339742015-10-04T15:02:55.703-07:002015-10-04T15:02:55.703-07:00Capra / Va_ H
Thanks.
Then if Afansievo were rec...Capra / Va_ H<br /><br />Thanks. <br />Then if Afansievo were recent arrivals from Yamnaya, we should expect to see Caucasian-Pontic (ie CMP) metallurgy Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21682227553478933522015-10-04T13:18:07.964-07:002015-10-04T13:18:07.964-07:00I haven't been able to find anything substanti...I haven't been able to find anything substantial on Afanasievo metal use either. Apparently most of their copper was in the form of simple ornaments such as beads, which are not very diagnostic. There was a single find of a shaft-hole axe of the Pontic-Caspian type, but no analysis was done to determine whether it was manufactured locally or imported (I would guess the latter). <br /><br />capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-48013639774657624572015-10-04T11:12:54.480-07:002015-10-04T11:12:54.480-07:00Rob:
"Can you point to the evidence/ papers ...Rob:<br /><br /><i>"Can you point to the evidence/ papers of central Asian affinity of Afensievo metallurgy ?"</i><br /><br />I wish that I could. I can't even find an assertion that they practiced metallurgy as such. A history of Siberia I glanced at claimed they were cold-forging native metals and included silver among them. Native silver is quite rare. It's possible that'Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-71021087749844828822015-10-04T02:51:54.059-07:002015-10-04T02:51:54.059-07:00For the sake of not being confusing, you shouldn&#...For the sake of not being confusing, you shouldn't have called the the yellow portion "Near Eastern ancestry", which implies the rest is non. <br /><br />If anything the yellow portion is the non ANE admixed part of EEF related ancestry. But quite frankly a good chunk of the other 3-4 components did also start their journey together with the yellow component in the Near East. I Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78071180296940280162015-10-03T17:17:42.623-07:002015-10-03T17:17:42.623-07:00VA-Highlander
Can you point to the evidence/ pape...VA-Highlander<br /><br />Can you point to the evidence/ papers of central Asian affinity of Afensievo metallurgy ?<br />Thanks in advance.<br /><br />btw, as I said, i remain entirely open as to exactly where / how the group of Similar cultures from Danube to Altai formed. <br /><br />But we should not assume <i>everything</i> went east to west just because it did during the Turko-Mongol era . inRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22284920472235649672015-10-03T12:27:38.439-07:002015-10-03T12:27:38.439-07:00Taymas:
"Could you provide some solid exampl...Taymas:<br /><br /><i>"Could you provide some solid examples of linguistic spread with neither (a) demic movement nor (b) a state?"</i><br /><br />Apparently, the pattern of language adoption on the steppe during the Mongolian expansion serves as one example. A tribe could adopt the language, and even claim to be Mongolian, despite having no Mongolian ancestry.<br /><br />Aram:<br /><brVa_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46978923729629528532015-10-02T22:32:48.124-07:002015-10-02T22:32:48.124-07:00Some posters assume all Neolithic European mtDNA w...Some posters assume all Neolithic European mtDNA was like it was in Hungary/Germany. This isn't the case; Iberian, French, Romanian Neolithic mtDNA is very differnt. Who knows maybe Yamnaya's Neolithic ancestors traveled through the Balkans(not saying it is likely). <br /><br />Romanian Neolithic shares W6 with Yamnaya while all Hungary/German W is not W6. T1a exists in Hungary/Germany, Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-32503441836123399362015-10-02T21:58:13.473-07:002015-10-02T21:58:13.473-07:00@ Bell Beaker
Very interesting. I did some diggi...@ Bell Beaker <br /><br />Very interesting. I did some digging around abiut Cardinal / Impresson sites in the Black Sea "Unfortunately, at present it is based on isolated finds, radiocarbon dates which are often questionable, and sites researched quite a few decades ago". <br /><br />But certainly a viable possibility . <br /><br />@ Krefter <br /><br />Z2103 would make sense <br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90421409655458763222015-10-02T21:56:58.604-07:002015-10-02T21:56:58.604-07:00@Va_Highlander
"I'm not sure what you'...@Va_Highlander<br />"I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Obviously, they got the wood from somewhere, transported ore to another site, or something."<br /><br />I'm saying that although fuel ought to have been an issue - as you say - the evidence from Kargaly seems to suggest it wasn't in practice - which is odd imo.<br /><br /><br />@Karl_K<br />https://Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46612461462839729252015-10-02T20:38:08.272-07:002015-10-02T20:38:08.272-07:00@postneo
"I think Dung fires don't not y...@postneo<br /><br />"I think Dung fires don't not yield high temperatures needed for ores. its ok for cooking and fertilizer."<br /><br />Cattle dung is still used in Nepal and India to supplement wood for smelting in small traditional operations. In pre-Columbian Peru, a lot of the smelting was done with only llama dung and no wood.<br /><br />I was not suggesting that all the Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69293989307299580442015-10-02T20:26:14.206-07:002015-10-02T20:26:14.206-07:00@Rob
Impresso-Cardial ceramics are present North...@Rob <br /><br />Impresso-Cardial ceramics are present North of the Black Sea, I think it's a question of degree and how early. bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49544350133167009472015-10-02T19:37:10.976-07:002015-10-02T19:37:10.976-07:00@Rob,
"Some Y DNA from Afansievo will certain...@Rob,<br />"Some Y DNA from Afansievo will certainly be enlightening."<br /><br />A Russian guy claimed to have sampled Afansievo Y DNA several years ago and that 3/3 were R1b, one being confirmed R1b1a2. Makes sense because Eastern Yamnaya was almost 100% R1b-Z2103. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27551169359964670062015-10-02T18:42:14.586-07:002015-10-02T18:42:14.586-07:00Postneo,
The Eurasian steppe was warm and humid u...Postneo,<br /><br />The Eurasian steppe was warm and humid until 3,000 BC. Significant aridization began only around 2,600 BC. See Table 1 here...<br /><br />https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/3511<br /><br />But of course that was well after the migration of the ancestors of Afanasievo from Eastern Europe to South Siberia.<br /><br />So do you have any evidence Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7278115144610564222015-10-02T18:37:36.380-07:002015-10-02T18:37:36.380-07:00@Rob
Impresso-Cardial ceramics are present North...@Rob <br /><br />Impresso-Cardial ceramics are present North of the Black Sea, I think it's a question of degree and how early. bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89280733837728329302015-10-02T17:40:06.704-07:002015-10-02T17:40:06.704-07:00VA_Highlander
At present one has to accept the ev...VA_Highlander<br /><br />At present one has to accept the evidence of the Yamnaya - Afansievo similarity, if not identity. Of course, with all the troubles in dating, and yet unsampled areas, the ultimate source of these two populations remains to be proven unequivocally. Some Y DNA from Afansievo will certainly be enlightening. Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15527404638300860512015-10-02T17:34:41.603-07:002015-10-02T17:34:41.603-07:00@ BBB
" Without question farmers lived here ...@ BBB<br /><br />" Without question farmers lived here before this, in fact it would have been very desirable for early farming."<br /><br />Sounds like an unsubstantiated claim that Farmers existed on the Black Sea c. 6000 BC. To be sure, we'd need t least one piece of evidence for this. So your "without doubt" is more like major doubt. The peoples living on north Black Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44172086785478936892015-10-02T16:22:55.941-07:002015-10-02T16:22:55.941-07:00Karl_K (on animal dung as fuel):
I think Dung fir...Karl_K (on animal dung as fuel):<br /><br />I think Dung fires don't not yield high temperatures needed for ores. its ok for cooking and fertilizer.postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23907170955444106012015-10-02T16:19:26.186-07:002015-10-02T16:19:26.186-07:00bellbeakerblogger,
That's interesting and it ...bellbeakerblogger,<br /><br />That's interesting and it would explain what we're seeing.<br /><br />Taymas,<br /><br />The profile of the Near Eastern mtDNA in the Yamnaya suggests that it could have easily come from the Caucasus or surrounds, including the South Caspian. However, if so, it arrived on the steppe before Caucasians and Iranians acquired their present genetic structure with Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25905355036914507802015-10-02T14:03:43.628-07:002015-10-02T14:03:43.628-07:00@Balaji
We already knew that Bronze Age Armenians...@Balaji<br /><br />We already knew that Bronze Age Armenians didn't mix into Yamnaya, because they lacked the requisite time portal technology. That everyone in the Transcaucasus 2000 years earlier had the same kind of ancestry is speculation.<br /><br />Neolithic Europeans came from the same area (Greece), already had the full Neolithic package, and were colonizing a large area inhabitated capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59552267685706584552015-10-02T13:43:02.932-07:002015-10-02T13:43:02.932-07:00I don't know what constitutes teal, but one fa...I don't know what constitutes teal, but one fairly coincidental event preceding it's appearance in Yamna was the rise of the Black Sea which mostly affected its northern shore.<br /><br />Something around 43,000 square miles of the North Black Sea was above water level (not sea level) in 5,600 B.C. Sometime in the 5th millennium the alluvium began more rapidly infilling with brackish bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-51801305365022291932015-10-02T13:40:03.190-07:002015-10-02T13:40:03.190-07:00@Va_Highlander
Well, I don't see how the West...@Va_Highlander<br /><br />Well, I don't see how the West Siberian Plain forms an impenetrable barrier to the transmission of metallurgical knowledge. No one ever went back and forth between the Urals and the Altai in the course of a lifetime?capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39455531564325002442015-10-02T12:09:43.639-07:002015-10-02T12:09:43.639-07:00Here is what Haak said in Figure S9.20, “The Yamna...Here is what Haak said in Figure S9.20, “The Yamnaya show a pattern of negative correlation when using Karelia_HG and either Iraqi_Jew or Armenian as reference. This is consistent with it having a component of ancestry related to the Caucasus/Near East suggesting that ancient DNA work in these regions may reveal a good surrogate for this type of ancestry.”<br /><br />We do now have ancient DNA Balajihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09561110603904765636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-480513531036688832015-10-02T11:36:59.417-07:002015-10-02T11:36:59.417-07:00@coldmountains
Clearly R1a and R1b learnt from ol...@coldmountains<br /><br />Clearly R1a and R1b learnt from older haplogroups that they came across.<br /><br /> We know the R1 family is the youngest haplogroup created. Logic says the older haplogroups where already communicating to each other prior to the R1 group arriving, anywhere.<br /><br />don't you find it strange that most people think/dream the R1 group created everything and other Gasparhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803562810086047583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78808323834087495752015-10-02T10:48:39.092-07:002015-10-02T10:48:39.092-07:00@Va_Highlander,
Anyways, archaeologist don't ...@Va_Highlander,<br /><br />Anyways, archaeologist don't have a survey of all remains left on earth by humans throughout all of time. Afanasievo could have been mining metal as they moved from Russia to Siberia. We might just not have the remains of their ancestors who lived in-between Russia and Siberia. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.com