tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post5508303991677893155..comments2024-03-18T21:47:38.626-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Steppe admixture in Mycenaeans, lots of Caucasus admixture already in Minoans (Lazaridis et al. 2017)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger436125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-60560617105718786782019-05-21T13:30:58.331-07:002019-05-21T13:30:58.331-07:00Isn't it somewhat inaccurate to refer to the M...Isn't it somewhat inaccurate to refer to the Mycenaeans as Indo-European considering their Steppe ancestry is less than 20% in many samples? Sure, the elites were Indo-European and their language is (with a large pre-IE substrate), but the genetic continuity between Minoan and Mycenaean peoples makes me want to have some kind of cut-off point in terms of percentages. Maybe I'm being Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03343265272533643435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-62596010637583814602018-01-11T19:22:52.545-08:002018-01-11T19:22:52.545-08:00At this point it's obvious that the Pontic-Cas...At this point it's obvious that the Pontic-Caspian steppe was the PIE homeland, because the most common IE paternal markers R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 expanded from there.<br /><br />Trans-Caucasia, and maybe possibly to a lesser degree, parts of Iran, contributed southern admixture via female gene flow to PIE populations.<br /><br />But PIE people were highly patriarchal and patrilineal, so theirDavidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-17577863149917704432018-01-11T18:56:56.341-08:002018-01-11T18:56:56.341-08:00At this point, any reasonable person can conclude,...At this point, any reasonable person can conclude, based on substantial evidence, that trans-Caucasia, including Iran, were home to PIE populations. Refuting that scenario, is just plain delusional. blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2827382385257546922018-01-11T17:11:14.784-08:002018-01-11T17:11:14.784-08:00@Jeremy Battle
Neither the Mycenaeans nor Minoans...@Jeremy Battle<br /><br />Neither the Mycenaeans nor Minoans were Iranized people you crackpot.<br /><br />Both the Mycenaeans and Minoans show significant CHG/Iran_Chalcolithic-RELATED ancestry from Anatolia, in fact overall most similar to the Tepecik farmers from Central Anatolia, not any Iranians.<br /><br />But only the Mycenaeans show significant steppe ancestry, and they are the first Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18746076033057766262018-01-11T17:01:29.814-08:002018-01-11T17:01:29.814-08:00"The most sensible model, therefore, is of mo..."The most sensible model, therefore, is of modelling Mycenaeans as a mixture of Anatolian_N + Armenian_Chl/MLBA, as this model also eliminates the need to posit multiple admixtures."<br /><br />A thorough sample of Anatolia would reveal Anatolian_N is itself a fair fraction Iran_N (and Levantine/WHG), as is Armenian. CHG is essentially Iran + EHG. So you are just using semantics to Tminushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14670330637347557641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24418325095827049572017-08-22T09:07:12.865-07:002017-08-22T09:07:12.865-07:00Of course Davidski will delete this post, but, abo...Of course Davidski will delete this post, but, about the paper on Mycenaeans of Lazaridis and how and why it may be biased, imagine if what I thought about him so long were true, that his Y is a J2 of Venetian origin, and what did Dienekes answer Davidski about his failure in the autosome tests and the closing of his blog? That he published on peer reviews now.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-53352877469268958542017-08-12T02:07:43.932-07:002017-08-12T02:07:43.932-07:00@Kurti
Very funny. But here's a third possibi...@Kurti<br /><br />Very funny. But here's a third possibility for you.<br /><br />The J in the singleton Mycenaean male sample is from his Minoan-like ancestors, and R will turn up in Mycenaean males from elite tombs, and so will more EHG.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-91621489688550423832017-08-12T01:49:24.269-07:002017-08-12T01:49:24.269-07:00Well actually I have to take my statement above ba...Well actually I have to take my statement above back. If the Mycenaens were from the Steppes, I would expect more EHG, and if it was an Elite Dominance I would expect R lineages. But instead only J lineages.<br /><br />So there are two possibilities.<br />A: Either the Proto Mycenaens didn't come from the Steppes<br />B: there is some J in the Steppe cultures which haven't been found yet.Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56320347339322373792017-08-11T04:30:18.233-07:002017-08-11T04:30:18.233-07:00Not wanting to be dragged into this discussion. Bu...Not wanting to be dragged into this discussion. But the only thing these Mycenian samples prove is, that<br /><br />A: There is allot of truth to the Greco_Aryan theory. Seems like the Greek and Indo_Iranian speakers do derive from the same group within the Indo European family.<br /><br />But that would indicate that Greek speakers might have come from the Steppes, since Greek branch has Kurtihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00818803833239507313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-33119508101319229632017-08-10T18:33:06.139-07:002017-08-10T18:33:06.139-07:00@rob
Yes modern Greeks are more sintashta than Myc...@rob<br />Yes modern Greeks are more sintashta than Mycenaeans! like Hispanic immigrants turning Anglo in the US. <br />Greece was an assimilating imperial colonial power thru roman even modern times<br /><br />Assimilating Scythians, Slavs, hellenizing jews. Spreading the orthodox faith thru the balkans and beyond. .. the ban on Macedonian in the last century<br /><br />postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55642242143028626192017-08-10T17:53:38.428-07:002017-08-10T17:53:38.428-07:00@ Genetonaut
", but to find out out that mos...@ Genetonaut<br /><br />", but to find out out that most modern Greeks are actually significantly more northern than Mycenaeans is absolutely hilarious. What a twist!<br />"<br /><br />Foolremeyer must have been jealous !Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-85430768998060299282017-08-10T07:15:18.376-07:002017-08-10T07:15:18.376-07:00Ah, I should have guessed.Ah, I should have guessed.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46639854816017342712017-08-10T06:57:34.461-07:002017-08-10T06:57:34.461-07:00Oh, I'm sure they'll cluster with Poles. S...Oh, I'm sure they'll cluster with Poles. Saint Nick was a Greek from Myra, though, so he might cover it up. :D<br /><br />This is Mike the Jedi from the old days, by the way. Long time no see, brother Polako.Michalis Moriopouloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12874041332836626074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-74782795905311808292017-08-10T06:49:35.016-07:002017-08-10T06:49:35.016-07:00@Genetonaut
Let's see what Santa pulls out of...@Genetonaut<br /><br />Let's see what Santa pulls out of the Mycenaean shaft graves with Sintashta-like grave goods.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80859374970097547072017-08-10T05:23:15.941-07:002017-08-10T05:23:15.941-07:00This study is wonderful, but hardly surprising. An...This study is wonderful, but hardly surprising. Anyone familiar with the way Mycenaeans depicted themselves could have guessed as much; they are invariably black-haired and look indistinguishable from Minoans. That's not to even speak of J. Lawrence Angel's exhaustive study on Aegean remains from the Neolithic to modern times, affirming Greek continuity (but not purity) from a metric Michalis Moriopouloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12874041332836626074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-58647058715008054082017-08-09T03:59:42.977-07:002017-08-09T03:59:42.977-07:00Around 20% of Steppe_MLBA in four random Mycenaean...Around 20% of Steppe_MLBA in four random Mycenaeans, not even including any males from elite tombs, is awesome enough for now.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52488995617427673492017-08-09T03:52:59.723-07:002017-08-09T03:52:59.723-07:00Some people are acting like, they have found 80 % ...Some people are acting like, they have found 80 % Steppe ancestry in ancient Greeks :) .Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-20309198193891289142017-08-08T22:25:05.052-07:002017-08-08T22:25:05.052-07:00@ Sam
"I guess you've decided to retreat...@ Sam<br /><br />"I guess you've decided to retreat from your previous stance which argued all Steppe ancestry in Europe is from the Balkan Chalcolithic and are now arguing just arguing some Steppe ancestry is from the Balkan Chalcolithic."<br /><br />LOL . Rubbish. I was merely pointing out that *it just so happens, at present* that the individual with the earliest actual steppe Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-73152879557711589662017-08-08T17:02:17.924-07:002017-08-08T17:02:17.924-07:00@Rob, are you man enough to respond?
Throughout t...@Rob, are you man enough to respond?<br /><br />Throughout this summer you've been arguing Balkan Chalcolithic *outliers* are the source of the Steppe in LNBA Europe. Your 'new' theory that the Myceanean's Steppe is from the Balkan Chalcolithic *outliers* is from the same retarded ideas. That's why I pointed out that the two biggest Steppe migrations into Europe(R1a-M417, Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34214231103297224292017-08-08T17:01:29.249-07:002017-08-08T17:01:29.249-07:00@ Ryan
"Greek has some shared features with ...@ Ryan<br /><br />"Greek has some shared features with Iranian languages though too does it not"<br /><br />As I said above, yes there are. And they were mediated by individuals like the Iranian from Thrace which Dave is trying to pass of as a Greek. <br />O my Xerxes<br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-58521259745859686062017-08-08T11:50:30.384-07:002017-08-08T11:50:30.384-07:00@Roy - Greek has some shared features with Iranian...@Roy - Greek has some shared features with Iranian languages though too does it not? I don't think IE would strictly fit a tree model anyways, and particularly not so for Greek. I don't see any reason why it couldn't have <i>partial</i> ancestry from a Satemized language.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-51808949328224738042017-08-08T11:39:09.132-07:002017-08-08T11:39:09.132-07:00@David - "Ancient DNA has already pinpointed ...<br />@David - "Ancient DNA has already pinpointed a Sintashta-like sample with Z93 in the Bronze Age southern Balkans, and I bet that he'll be a good fit for the steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans. That's all that counts."<br /><br />I'd bet good money that you'll get the best fit from modelling Mycenaeans as having received steppe input from two sources, and that the secondRyanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80595454353448067672017-08-08T09:02:48.549-07:002017-08-08T09:02:48.549-07:00@Davidski,
Have you considered that the R1a-Z93 M...@Davidski,<br /><br />Have you considered that the R1a-Z93 MLBA Bulgarian I2163 could be Thracian? It was found in Haskovo province bordering on Greek and Turkish Thrace. Also the sole modern Mainland Greek sample from our study is derived for Z2125.Thracian appears to be a satem language like Indo-Aryan, so that would fit as well. Greece in antiquity culled many slaves from Thrace and Phrygia.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02272252711544391571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-85903013693399278592017-08-08T08:35:39.364-07:002017-08-08T08:35:39.364-07:00@ Roy King
"So sorry Gioiello, but your judgm...@ Roy King<br />"So sorry Gioiello, but your judgment is askew again! I'm not from Harvard--never ever studied there. I'm totally from Cornell and Stanford. I got my math PhD from Cornell and my MD from Stanford and taught there for 29 years. Now emeritus". <br /><br />I apologize.<br />You are a Conellian and a Stanfordian. You cannot be so ingenue. Cecidere manus!<br /><br />Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90771920980391664272017-08-08T08:11:01.863-07:002017-08-08T08:11:01.863-07:00@Gioiello,
"You are an Harvardian. You cannot...@Gioiello,<br />"You are an Harvardian. You cannot be so ingenue. Cecidere manus!"<br /><br />So sorry Gioiello, but your judgment is askew again! I'm not from Harvard--never ever studied there. I'm totally from Cornell and Stanford. I got my math PhD from Cornell and my MD from Stanford and taught there for 29 years. Now emeritus.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02272252711544391571noreply@blogger.com