tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post627100500919167788..comments2024-03-18T18:30:48.719-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Corded Ware women more mobile than their men (Sjögren et al. 2016)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger94125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-1812672195963821522016-06-04T16:29:15.923-07:002016-06-04T16:29:15.923-07:00@ Frank
Aurignac samples are C1a. Their cousine G... @ Frank<br /><br />Aurignac samples are C1a. Their cousine Gravettians were C1, I, IJ*, and C1a2. Magdalenian samples were I*. That may imply that old assumptions and consequent beliefs about Indo-European origins are dead wrong. Especially since Centum/Satem are BOTH present - to describe "a hundered" - in the major Uralian language. <br /><br />What remains is that the major part ofbatmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00810638398479713844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-33966501846187034222016-06-01T07:18:14.991-07:002016-06-01T07:18:14.991-07:00David (& Karl)
What I mean to say is that, pr...David (& Karl)<br /><br />What I mean to say is that, prior to the Neolithic in East Europe, EHG groups were more densely settled in the zones north of the steppe. The ancestors of Yamnaya and CWC "acquired" their additional mtDNA in the broad farmer- forager frontier from NW Ukraine to the Caucasus. Specifically, this interaction & settlement was more or less restricted to the Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89692332447763095202016-05-31T07:19:11.247-07:002016-05-31T07:19:11.247-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-57163088284936266702016-05-28T19:59:51.606-07:002016-05-28T19:59:51.606-07:00That doesn't make any sense.
I'm talking ...That doesn't make any sense.<br /><br />I'm talking about mtDNA sequences specific to the Caucasus and Caspian Steppe. They're common in Corded Ware, Yamnaya and also present in Khvalynsk.<br /><br />They first show up in Central Europe with Corded Ware. That's why Corded Ware mtDNA is distinct from that of earlier German and Polish Neolithic groups. See Fig 3. here...<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65733966863088285602016-05-28T18:54:47.342-07:002016-05-28T18:54:47.342-07:00There's a nice little picture here for you
h...There's a nice little picture here for you <br /><br />http://s32.postimg.org/9o2bpyrh1/image.png<br /><br />What's missing is also an arrow due west <br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82603097902753120492016-05-28T18:48:13.585-07:002016-05-28T18:48:13.585-07:00A good question.
But it's more like the other...A good question. <br />But it's more like the other way: khvalynsk and Yamnaya acquired mtDNA lineages from EE forest source populations, prior to the their trickling down the major river ways toward the steppe Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42551760692898095862016-05-28T18:37:19.721-07:002016-05-28T18:37:19.721-07:00How and where did these westward moving Baltic gro...How and where did these westward moving Baltic groups acquire women with mtDNA sequences from Khvalynsk and Yamnaya?Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-20716313097751960832016-05-28T18:09:50.744-07:002016-05-28T18:09:50.744-07:00Frank N
I recall the paper from mid- late Neolith...Frank N<br /><br />I recall the paper from mid- late Neolithic Poland . The implications are that the major discontinuity in the anthropological record is in the post-LBK phase (after 5000 BC); which then appears in Germany slightly later.<br /><br />"Furthermore, it can be inferred that the dis- cussed change in the genetic structure of Neolithic populations in north-central Poland oc- Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75173582590432282532016-05-28T04:29:53.684-07:002016-05-28T04:29:53.684-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22260113611991329612016-05-28T00:35:21.738-07:002016-05-28T00:35:21.738-07:00@ Frank N
I meant the funerary - ideological &...@ Frank N<br /><br />I meant the funerary - ideological & social domain of CWC appears to have differed from preceding central European cultures - even GAC which sees a shift from traditional "Neolithic norms", such as evidence of early specialized cattle herding. But even still, the fundamental social unit was the village (more or less still communal), whilst CWC sees a shift to Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44431367631552783512016-05-27T19:23:37.030-07:002016-05-27T19:23:37.030-07:00@FrankN,
"What have I been ignoring in citing...@FrankN,<br />"What have I been ignoring in citing Haak on Eulau, presenting updqted CW distribution maps, or interpreting the higher female CW mobility demonstrated in Dave's linked article"<br /><br />"ignore" is a bad way to put it. "Wrong Interpretation" is a better way to put it. Here's another try: R1a existed in Eneolithic Samara just as it did in Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59003112511924701202016-05-27T18:02:36.117-07:002016-05-27T18:02:36.117-07:00@ Karl
I was referring to within local contexts, ...@ Karl<br /><br />I was referring to within local contexts, and not the entire breadth of the CWC phenomenon. In other words, no, i don't expect a Battle Axe man from Sweden to be a relative of a CWC mane form Germany. Rather, if you look at the fine grained distribution maps, you would see that CWC occupied localised geographic clusters. I wonder then if the early founders graves and Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50092759991487166222016-05-27T12:28:22.972-07:002016-05-27T12:28:22.972-07:00@Rob: "More proximately, CWC was catalyzed by...@Rob: <i>"More proximately, CWC was catalyzed by the same line of developments as Yamnaya, drawing from the same of the ideological repertoires of which developed in the NW Black Sea & the Middle Dnieper region in the 3500- 2800 BC period.</i><br /><br />Mind providing details about that "ideological repertoire"?<br /><br />What I see is a lot of continuity of CE traditions:<brFrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65836372667810036732016-05-27T11:05:14.068-07:002016-05-27T11:05:14.068-07:00@FrankN,
People start to get rude when you you ig...@FrankN,<br /><br />People start to get rude when you you ignore the obvious and keep giving crazy ideas because they're non-mainstream. Keep in mind the academics who write these DNA papers don't agree with you. There's no point in arguing with you anymore. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6519524739016961032016-05-27T08:40:50.568-07:002016-05-27T08:40:50.568-07:00Dave, please stop trolling me, and instead read ca...Dave, please stop trolling me, and instead read carefully what I have written: <i>" When accepting Allentoft's results as per their Ext.Data Fig. 6 .."</i>? I have looked at that link, and am considering it, there is really no need for you to post it a third or a fourth time!<br /><br />The fact that the three Eulau individuals were related has been stated by Haak himself, see, e.g.FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30011059349596034462016-05-27T03:32:50.784-07:002016-05-27T03:32:50.784-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49168109653355744892016-05-27T03:01:24.120-07:002016-05-27T03:01:24.120-07:00Karl
Is it though ?
If we go with the likely fa...Karl <br /><br />Is it though ? <br />If we go with the likely fact that there was no R1a west of the Vistula before CWC, and it suddenly appears after 2800 BC, and we know that these were kin-based, household, lineage etc societies characterized by patriarchy and female exogamy, then isn't it possible all these guys were all cousins of sorts ? Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68493080547577318582016-05-27T02:50:22.712-07:002016-05-27T02:50:22.712-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46512180382834124552016-05-27T02:32:32.009-07:002016-05-27T02:32:32.009-07:00Are these all cousins too, sharing the same recent...Are these all cousins too, sharing the same recent paternal ancestor, or what?<br /><br />Battle-Axe RISE94, Sweden, 2621-2472 calBCE, R1a <br /><br />Single-Grave RISE64, Denmark, 2851-2492 calBCE, R1a<br /><br />Corded Ware RISE446, Germany, 2829-2465 calBCE, R1a<br /><br />I reckon it's more likely that Frank is on some funky medication.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-37216904007535640502016-05-27T02:30:19.507-07:002016-05-27T02:30:19.507-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21285192286400835142016-05-27T02:14:36.952-07:002016-05-27T02:14:36.952-07:00@FrankN
"Probably not father and sons, as I ...@FrankN<br /><br />"Probably not father and sons, as I wrongly stated, but grandfather and grandsons, but still related."<br /><br />"I am not taken for granted that they are all unrelated. Has anybody already run IBD analyses on them?"<br /><br />"some of which may be related."<br /><br />This is actually an interesting question. But it has technological issues. Karl_Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10388217053237956318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-16611848874473716852016-05-27T00:07:52.625-07:002016-05-27T00:07:52.625-07:00I also agree that CWC isn't an "elite cul...I also agree that CWC isn't an "elite culture" ; but not because what happened in Eulau-<br />Conflict was a natural occurrence<br /><br />Rather, it's because they were just another group within EBA Europe who didn't rule anyone but themselves Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83162785155370432352016-05-26T23:43:01.813-07:002016-05-26T23:43:01.813-07:00Frank
Sure we might find evidence of other haplo...Frank <br /><br />Sure we might find evidence of other haplogroups in CWC with more samples, but I think it is already clear that it was predominantly R1a- M417.<br /><br />The real question is, the chronology & origin point of its dispersion. I hypothesize that M417 or pre-M417 could have habited anywhere from an arc of expanse from Poland to the Black Sea, and this region was characterized Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49087166773726938972016-05-26T22:12:01.962-07:002016-05-26T22:12:01.962-07:00@Frank
I have no idea what the problem is, but cl...@Frank<br /><br />I have no idea what the problem is, but clearly something's not working properly at your end.<br /><br />Try this. Paste this link from Allentoft et al. into your browser, and tell me what you see for the baCW sample. baCW stands for Corded Ware.<br /><br />http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/fig_tab/nature14507_SF6.html<br /><br />And keep in mind that this Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-16142624928224048262016-05-26T20:14:12.132-07:002016-05-26T20:14:12.132-07:00@Dave: Looking through the Allentoft SI, I couldn&...@Dave: Looking through the Allentoft SI, I couldn't find any list of their yDNA results. Maybe its the main paper, which is paywalled. They have sent you their results, which correspond to Ext.Data Fig. 6, but are cited differently by Mathieson, and Ancestral Journeys. What's behind that, I don't know, you apparently neither. Let's not make this a big affair, but please accept FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.com