tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post6571768344837008706..comments2024-03-28T10:03:24.453-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Children of the Divine TwinsDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79087445516357282482020-06-11T07:52:39.593-07:002020-06-11T07:52:39.593-07:00The Kalash number just a few thousand people and l...The Kalash number just a few thousand people and live in isolated valleys.<br /><br />So the chances that their Y-haplogroups and their frequencies closely reflect those of their steppe ancestors are zero.<br /><br />Too much isolation and founder effects.<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75458404570956282972020-06-11T06:11:32.475-07:002020-06-11T06:11:32.475-07:00There were obviously multiple migrations of steppe...There were obviously multiple migrations of steppe groups into South Asia. Kalash, while related, might be the descendants of a different group of steppe people than the Vedic Aryans that spread throughout the plains of northern South Asia. They were a R1a heavy group as can be deduced based on the high percentages among higher castes and modern IA speakers. On the contrary, the Kalash (and thereBhatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15826428604582794707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30843498138995956712015-09-03T16:44:59.507-07:002015-09-03T16:44:59.507-07:00OK, settle down with the insults and stuff.
It...OK, settle down with the insults and stuff.<br /><br />It's not necessary. This will be settled sooner rather than later with ancient DNA.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75077638040834584892015-09-03T14:49:08.042-07:002015-09-03T14:49:08.042-07:00mementas,
Very interesting, so "South Asian ...mementas,<br /><br />Very interesting, so "South Asian substructure" magically accounts for what we see with qpAdm, TreeMix, and d-stats. Your insights are very profound. <br /><br />Also, it's interesting that the Reich team "won't stand by this sort of stats-masturbation", since these are the very same methods they've used to crack prehistorical European genetic Seinundzeithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14194936397714207913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11416982433872894202015-09-03T13:45:27.734-07:002015-09-03T13:45:27.734-07:00Lol !
Thanks for your input 'mementas'Lol !<br />Thanks for your input 'mementas'<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-10518955201234449552015-09-03T11:39:49.577-07:002015-09-03T11:39:49.577-07:00@capra
All well and true (no expertise on Asian p...@capra<br /><br />All well and true (no expertise on Asian prehistory) but trade goods do not mean gene mixture as you admit. Look at Ark-Sin remains and contrast with CW. There is barely any difference between them. If there was BMAC mixture into steppes it will be near meaningless or localized to the south. <br /><br />Steppe groups mixed 'out' and not 'in'. The ancient remains Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55952454298513893342015-09-03T08:11:35.841-07:002015-09-03T08:11:35.841-07:00Well, there were certainly trade links between Sou...Well, there were certainly trade links between South Asia, Central Asia, and West Asia (including the Caucasus) dating back to 4000 BC or so. There are Central and South Asian trade goods in the Maykop and Novosvobodnaya kurgans. At around the same period the Geoksyur oasis culture in SW Turkmenistan shows influence from Early Harappan cultures to the south, especially in ceramic manufacture, andcapra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29692907057600081682015-09-03T07:23:50.925-07:002015-09-03T07:23:50.925-07:00This is confusing a lot of people. Let me help out...This is confusing a lot of people. Let me help out.<br /><br />IBS is not genetic distance. Someone earlier used the data like that. Which is false and shows misunderstanding of the method. IBS is used by thousands of researchers but someone online decides it is a 'problem' method? LoL, you read the funniest stuff from self declared experts online<br /><br />South Central Asian sub Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14379215796853720232015-09-03T02:09:07.955-07:002015-09-03T02:09:07.955-07:00Balaji
And why is there an apprent lack of ASI i...Balaji <br /><br />And why is there an apprent lack of ASI in europeans, and indeed a "South Asian" compnent in admixtures of modern and mesolithic and Eneolithic genomes (eg Karelia, Yamnaya, etc)- that is otherwise seen in Malta, or even Oase ?<br /><br />My current opinion is, if there is South asian , it would go back to late upper palaeolithic or early holocene; unless we propose Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-37390786524546802022015-09-03T02:06:10.879-07:002015-09-03T02:06:10.879-07:00@Balaji
I agree that hardly any Central or South ...@Balaji<br /><br />I agree that hardly any Central or South Asian population is 80% Belarusian-like. This is too much (even for many Europeans) and some of this affinity is likely caused by something older predating IEs in South and Central Asia. But something around 30-50% for South Central Asians and 50+% for Pamiri Tajiks sounds reasonable for me. There was no direct gene flow from South Asia Coldmountainshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18351446992955041786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90211543586219333992015-09-03T01:32:45.712-07:002015-09-03T01:32:45.712-07:00Let us take a look at Davidski's “Smarter Bear...Let us take a look at Davidski's “Smarter Bear” plot.<br /><br />https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/AYsOsB7dC5Bl0tINJwy_vBAlAF05t1TyXprcK8qF8sk=w1182-h631-no<br /><br />All Europeans are above the red line. Georgians are below the line. Dai are not shown on this figure but since they are about equally related to WHG and MA!, they will be close to the line. But Kalash are way below the line. <Balajihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09561110603904765636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-67630500753549587762015-09-02T22:24:01.889-07:002015-09-02T22:24:01.889-07:00@Krefter
"Athough we have very few fully-sequ...@Krefter<br />"Athough we have very few fully-sequenced ancient samples and many more matches could pop up if we had more."<br /><br />I do not believe that the big picture will change. Steppe haplogroups will be U2e1, U2e2, U5a1a1, U5b2/U5b2a1a2, U4a/U4a2a, U4b, U4c and probably all of A4, B4b, G2a3, C4a, C5c and D4. <br /><br />The share of U5, U4 and U2 may be high(er) in some Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65760134082972244422015-09-02T22:13:10.138-07:002015-09-02T22:13:10.138-07:00Matt,
I've just started going through some d-...Matt,<br /><br />I've just started going through some d-stats for myself (David was kind enough to run these with my raw-data), and since my ancestry is wholly from South Central Asia, what I'm getting in relation to ancient hunter gatherers might be of interest. Strongest signal of gene-flow to weakest signal of gene-flow:<br /><br />(Papuan, Sein, EHG, Mbuti) d-stat = -0.0645, z-score =Seinundzeithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14194936397714207913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-43854159176263577562015-09-02T11:57:10.447-07:002015-09-02T11:57:10.447-07:00@Kristiina,
We're in agreement about U5a/U4. ...@Kristiina,<br /><br />We're in agreement about U5a/U4. Steppe is the best candidate source for U5a/U4 in Europe and S-C Asia because EHG was introduced into both regions(except in North and East Europe) by Steppe people. <br /><br />"The shared sub-haplotypes I could find were the following: between Afanasievo and Iranians (U5a1a1 + T2c1); between Andronovo and Iranians (U2e2); and Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-81412125968856037602015-09-02T10:31:30.917-07:002015-09-02T10:31:30.917-07:00I stick to my understanding that usually it is yDN...I stick to my understanding that usually it is yDNA's that migrate to new areas / spread to the exclusion of original yDNA but mtDNAs are more local. However, I admit that there have been important migrations in particular as a result of climatic changes and new ways of making a living, e.g. arrival of Neolithic farmers to Europe when the climate became warmer and farming could support a muchKristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-43175568274719351462015-09-02T08:30:57.321-07:002015-09-02T08:30:57.321-07:00Comparison:
Sintashta J1c1b1a; Iranians J1b1a, J1b...Comparison:<br />Sintashta J1c1b1a; Iranians J1b1a, J1b1b, J1c2, J1d<br />Sintashta J2b1a2a; Iranians no J2<br />Sintashta N1a1a1; Iranians N1a1b<br />Sintashta U2e1e and U2e1h; Iranians U2c1, U2d, U2e1a, U2e2<br /><br />Afanasievo U5a1a1; Iranians U5a1a1, U5a1g, U5a1d2, U5b2a1a2<br />Afanasievo T2c1a2; Iranians T2a2b, T2b, T2c1, T2d1, T2g1, T2i, T2m, T2n <br />Afanasievo J2a2a; Iranians no J2<brKristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64894516845908517442015-09-02T07:57:51.394-07:002015-09-02T07:57:51.394-07:00As for Iranians, their do not possess a significan...As for Iranians, their do not possess a significant amount of steppe haplogroups. Their U2e1a1 looks recent. Their U4a2a also seems very recent. Instead, U5a1g is older, and it is said that<br /><br />"Notably, six of eight U5a haplotypes found in Iranians also belong to U5a1a’g and four of them belong to the very rare sub-cluster U5a1g. It has been recognized in three individuals of Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79898780249375417002015-09-02T07:15:41.564-07:002015-09-02T07:15:41.564-07:00I do not disagree that U5 and U4 are typical marke...I do not disagree that U5 and U4 are typical markers of Steppe-maternal ancestry but you definitely cannot claim that Bronze Age proto-IE's have an exclusive right to U5 and U4. <br /><br />IMO, U5 and U4 may ultimately have their origin in Europe but that happened before 10 kya ago and they spread to a wide area well before Sintashta and other Bronze Age cultures. Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-20501811518381981922015-09-02T06:55:26.908-07:002015-09-02T06:55:26.908-07:00@Kristiina,
U5/U4 are certainly the best markers ...@Kristiina,<br /><br />U5/U4 are certainly the best markers of Steppe-maternal ancestry. T2b/H1/J1c are great markers for EEF maternal ancestry but exist in West Asia too(at under 10%). There's a possibility U5a/U4 is of non-Stepe origin but it's greater that it is Steppe-origin. Especially for Iran where more typical Siberian mtDNA is rare. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79144446832127277942015-09-02T06:53:07.244-07:002015-09-02T06:53:07.244-07:00Afanasievo: RISE507 U5a1a1, RISE508 U5a1a1, RISE 5...Afanasievo: RISE507 U5a1a1, RISE508 U5a1a1, RISE 509 T2c1a2, RISE510 J2a2a, Rise511 J2a2a<br /><br />Sintashta: RISE386 J1c1b1a, RISE391 N1a1a1, RISE392 J2b1a2a, RISE394 U2e1e, RISE395 U2e1h<br /><br />Andronovo: RISE500 U4d1, RISE503 U2e2, RISE505 U4a1b, RISE512 U2e1<br /><br />Yamnaya: RISE546 U5a1d2b, RISE547 T2a1a, RISE548 U4, RISE550 U5a1i, RISE552 T2a1a<br /><br />They do not share any Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-32963076152427417582015-09-02T05:09:40.302-07:002015-09-02T05:09:40.302-07:00Krefter, we repeat the same arguments over and ove...Krefter, we repeat the same arguments over and over again, but I remind you that West Siberia, North East Europe and probably also Volga-Ural (ancient/mesolithic mtDNA is not available) has U4 and U5a from a very early date. 5000 BC Karelian sites yielded U4 and U5a. 4000 BC West Siberian Baraba Steppe hunter gatherer site yielded U2e, U4 and U5a. U5a was even detected at 5000 BC Baikal site. U4,Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-81633831691856948572015-09-02T02:14:40.367-07:002015-09-02T02:14:40.367-07:00Gotcha, thanks Gotcha, thanks Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34536531357457492542015-09-02T02:09:52.344-07:002015-09-02T02:09:52.344-07:00It doesn't work, because there's practical...It doesn't work, because there's practically no South Asian admixture in Eastern Europe, not counting some people in the Balkans with Roma admixture.<br /><br />And South Asian ancestry is so unique that it can't pass off as anything else, even when using f4 stats, which is what qpAdm runs on.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26108715097149603672015-09-02T01:14:49.148-07:002015-09-02T01:14:49.148-07:00Random question but what does modelling it the opp...Random question but what does modelling it the opposite way give ?<br /><br />Ie modelling Eastern Europeans as some mix Pashtun , MNE, etcAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-17776985714897436682015-09-02T00:56:45.389-07:002015-09-02T00:56:45.389-07:00Thanks for doing that.
Not totally sure I'm r...Thanks for doing that.<br /><br />Not totally sure I'm reading the statistical results right, but in terms of the prior comments, my interpretation would be it looks like the North Europeans can essentially whip up enough Native American and East Asian balance relative to one another and Africans, that only a slight level of East Asian and Georgian admixture is needed to fit the Kalash's Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.com