tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post7104982386286467303..comments2024-03-28T10:03:24.453-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Dutch Beakers: like no other BeakersDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger126125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-81966597500794365192019-03-08T15:14:19.222-08:002019-03-08T15:14:19.222-08:00Are you in financial crisis, looking for money to ...Are you in financial crisis, looking for money to start your own business or to pay your bills?, PayLATER Loan is given all types of loans at low interest rate of 2% Apply now via email at: ( paylaterloan@zoho.com ) OR WhatsApp ( +1 929 222 7518 )..https://www.blogger.com/profile/13215462831904292408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-4917548703031162142019-01-25T10:08:14.023-08:002019-01-25T10:08:14.023-08:00@Arza, one more point I thought about regarding th...@Arza, one more point I thought about regarding the idea of a Balto-Slavic unique HG idea: you might want to look at the correlation within Baltic_BA between how much "Balto-Slavic drift" a sample has, and how it's positioned on a cline between Baltic Corded Ware and HG. <br /><br />If the same samples that are HG shifted are also "Balto-Slavic drift" shifted, then it'Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55516975139347100042019-01-25T04:08:12.796-08:002019-01-25T04:08:12.796-08:00Arza used a West Eurasia 9 datasheet to simulate, ...Arza used a West Eurasia 9 datasheet to simulate, and I had a try at the same. If you want to pay with a scaled G25 version, there's the following:<br /><br />Balto-Slavic_HG_Theory_Model,<br />0.13435,0.132802,0.151768,0.150882,0.091973,<br />0.051397,0.025361,0.035563,0.022204,-0.060695,<br />-0.00248,-0.037296,0.058591,0.069986,-0.042533,<br />0.000901,0.01179,-0.002196,-0.001908,0.01483,<Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-86066078468341986572019-01-25T02:57:05.848-08:002019-01-25T02:57:05.848-08:00@Mouthful, the idea is that they are roughly somew...@Mouthful, the idea is that they are roughly somewhere on a cline involving WHG:EHG/ANE:CHG, but drifting separately for some deep time in history, which is the main idea Arza is proposing - that the unique drift that Baltic_BA has, and which some samples show up before Baltic_BA, is not due to drift in Baltic_BA rather than the HG population that contributed to them. <br /><br />Arza's modelMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76355691764268624802019-01-24T12:52:06.648-08:002019-01-24T12:52:06.648-08:00@Matt, Arza
What is that supposed UHG composition...@Matt, Arza<br /><br />What is that supposed UHG composition something between EHG's/WHG's and someomne else on top too? Sorry for asking this seems a bit complexMouthfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07375870373758007570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2284285688069869572019-01-24T02:43:27.540-08:002019-01-24T02:43:27.540-08:00@Arza, few graphics comparing your and my dummy &q...@Arza, few graphics comparing your and my dummy "Baltic_BA_UHG": https://imgur.com/a/Aju0pdH<br /><br />Very similar, main difference being in the dimension 7, my one being slightly extreme in some dimensions and so having shorter distances overall, and a slight tilt of mine to CHG (which seems reasonably plausible given the Steppe_Eneolithic genepool, Ukraine_N1 showing some similar Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80894061600356118462019-01-23T16:02:24.607-08:002019-01-23T16:02:24.607-08:00@Arza, I had a go at "cooking" up a ghos...@Arza, I had a go at "cooking" up a ghost for the WestEurasia9 that meets your specificiations (IronGate=X+WHG,BalticBA=X+CordedWare,EHG=X+ANE). Basically using regression equations and simple cline extension. <br /><br />If you'd like to try: <br />UHGDummy,-0.0889,0.0116,0.0392,-0.0229,0.0187,-0.0538,-0.0214,0.001,-0.0157<br /><br />The only bit I couldn't get to totally work Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-16690583577827737442019-01-23T04:23:40.013-08:002019-01-23T04:23:40.013-08:00Them meee said...
"Villabruna is Mesolithic a...Them meee said...<br />"Villabruna is Mesolithic and several millennia older than all steppe-derived R1b-M269 samples, so any time between his existence and the Late Neolithic there could have been massive demographic changes, and there were, so he's not a good argument for a strong presence of R1b in Neolithic Western Europe when by then most people belonged to either I2 or G2a."<Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14818477593727690062019-01-22T13:28:35.382-08:002019-01-22T13:28:35.382-08:00@Arza, had a quick look at that ghost, one thing I...@Arza, had a quick look at that ghost, one thing I noticed is that it doesn't quite treat the most outgroup like populations as a clade compared to WHG like populations. It might actually benefit from being less... exaggerated in position relative to Baltic_BA and CHG, and slightly further away along the extension of the WHG->Iron_Gates_HG->Baltic_BA path. <br /><br />The reason is thatMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84769203897748919142019-01-22T11:01:41.578-08:002019-01-22T11:01:41.578-08:00@Arza, looking at the coordinates you've given...@Arza, looking at the coordinates you've given, it seems like it's imaginable for a sample like that to show up, and there are maybe some appealing advantages over a "more drift" model for Baltic_BA and the other outliers (like the Beaker outliers), where it's not so clear to me whether more drift explains things very. <br /><br />I'm not sure though - it hasn't beenMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-13277306163656635702019-01-22T10:47:06.913-08:002019-01-22T10:47:06.913-08:00@All I was inspired by @Kristiina's comment ea...@All I was inspired by @Kristiina's comment earlier in the thread re: Fayatonova Culture. I was reading and wading through Hakkinen et al papers and it occured to me that maybe the linguistic drift from PIE -> Proto-Baltic-Slavic is due to a substrate of non-IE non-Uralic substrate (EHG, UHG, WHG?) similar to either Kunda, Narva and/or Volosovo Cultures?<br /><br />https://www.sgr.fi/sust/Andrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79878280389551317032019-01-22T09:42:51.906-08:002019-01-22T09:42:51.906-08:00@Davidski
As far as I'm aware none of the sam...@Davidski<br /><br />As far as I'm aware none of the samples labelled Baltic_BA from Mittnik paper and those sites Turlojiske and Baltic_BA are associated with Trzciniec culture also none of them with the exception of Turlojiske5 fit the time frame of Trzciniec culture. So I don't think labeling them as Trzciniec culture from semantic point of view is correct.Mouthfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07375870373758007570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-10274456709653866372019-01-22T08:27:37.053-08:002019-01-22T08:27:37.053-08:00What is the most likely area where this Balto-Slav...What is the most likely area where this Balto-Slavic drift appeared then, Belarus? Many suggest Trzciniec as having partly Polish roots.<br /><br />Also I think modern west Slavs have Beaker ancestry but most of it comes from later Celts and Germanics, most of their ancestry is still from Trzciniec but also later.Gabrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718136580023709390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83035881018935796912019-01-22T06:42:22.407-08:002019-01-22T06:42:22.407-08:00@ Matt
it wouldn't be unprecedented as there a...@ Matt<br /><i>it wouldn't be unprecedented as there are some samples that show up well before the Baltic_BA or late Corded Ware that look to have a specific shared drift with Baltic_BA.</i><br /><br />In fact on your plot everything besides maybe EEF shares that drift with Baltic_BA.<br /><br />Without that "drift" there would be no EHG, no Yamnaya, no Iron Gates etc.<br />That &Arzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10459843383682766479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28095466819186089092019-01-22T02:54:18.476-08:002019-01-22T02:54:18.476-08:00David, thank you! It looks very interesting!David, thank you! It looks very interesting!ambronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238484037682022972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36406659297464339632019-01-22T02:27:50.112-08:002019-01-22T02:27:50.112-08:00@ambron
The fit isn't that great, which means...@ambron<br /><br />The fit isn't that great, which means that something is missing.<br /><br />[1] "distance%=4.1977"<br /><br /> Polish<br /><br />Beaker_The_Netherlands,59.8<br />Baltic_BA,40.2<br /><br />Adding the early Slav from Bohemia fixes things up.<br /><br />[1] "distance%=2.0238"<br /><br /> Polish<br /><br />Slavic_Bohemia,67.6<br />Baltic_BA,22.6<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84553983089714564082019-01-22T01:30:47.909-08:002019-01-22T01:30:47.909-08:00David, thank you for your answer. And did you try ...David, thank you for your answer. And did you try to see how the modeling of today's Poles would be as Netherlands BB and Baltic BA? Just like you did with Poland BA. Blood ties (biological origin) are more interesting than language.ambronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238484037682022972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-832960508465673692019-01-22T01:25:32.136-08:002019-01-22T01:25:32.136-08:00On the possibility of Balto-Slavic drift linked (t...On the possibility of Balto-Slavic drift linked (to try and put it) CW in Poland, would say it wouldn't be unprecedented as there are some samples that show up well before the Baltic_BA or late Corded Ware that look to have a specific shared drift with Baltic_BA.<br /><br />If you reprocess Global 25, some couple Central European and Hungarian Beakers closer to Baltic_ BA on the Baltic_BA Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69541977383484261532019-01-22T01:11:19.517-08:002019-01-22T01:11:19.517-08:00@ambron
Maybe to some degree, but I think this mi...@ambron<br /><br />Maybe to some degree, but I think this mixture process was going on for ages, well into the Medieval period, except the people mixing had different ethnicities, like Bell Beakers and Trzciniec or Germanics and Slavs, etc.<br /><br />This is too complex to be reduced to a theory around the Lusatian culture.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-10181398600892608862019-01-22T01:09:42.164-08:002019-01-22T01:09:42.164-08:00@ David Thank you!
I read on Anthrogenica that we...@ David Thank you!<br /><br />I read on Anthrogenica that we may get Fatyanovo samples in the future:<br />"Scientists will study the DNA of the remains of the Bronze Age culture found in the Moscow region. The necropolis of Fatian culture was discovered during the preparation for the construction of a private school in Istrinsky district."<br /><br />https://tass.ru/moskovskaya-oblast/Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49989833649272240742019-01-22T01:04:46.463-08:002019-01-22T01:04:46.463-08:00David, are today's West Slavs a mix of Netherl...David, are today's West Slavs a mix of Netherlands BB and Baltic BA? This is how it results from your PCA. Such a mixture must have already occurred in the Bronze Age. This is shown by the warriors from Welzin. The horizon of the Lusatian culture was a good place for such mixing. What do you think?ambronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238484037682022972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49167061036862404342019-01-21T23:47:38.081-08:002019-01-21T23:47:38.081-08:00@ Davidski
Yes I agree (I was referring to someth...@ Davidski<br /><br />Yes I agree (I was referring to something rather different, it seems). <br />Curiously, some component of shared ancestry with Polish-BA type populations is stronger in Scandinavians than West Slavs.Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68420465283134251602019-01-21T23:36:23.547-08:002019-01-21T23:36:23.547-08:00@Dragos yes indeed the ‘pots’ changed the ‘people’...@Dragos yes indeed the ‘pots’ changed the ‘people’ stayed the same....and were SGC derived....weurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18217998844540373877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-77322519414035184582019-01-21T22:27:24.509-08:002019-01-21T22:27:24.509-08:00Yes, and I don't think they are, at least not ...Yes, and I don't think they are, at least not in any obvious way.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-66109612329331538132019-01-21T22:15:25.745-08:002019-01-21T22:15:25.745-08:00@ Davidski
Thanks for clarifying- but I’m still s...@ Davidski <br />Thanks for clarifying- but I’m still somewhat confused. Was your debate with Arza as to whether polish BA are on the path -> Baltic-Slavic ? Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.com