tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post7544308736653884796..comments2024-03-28T17:16:03.042-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Of horses and men #2Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger238125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-37415629610744025132020-05-20T23:05:48.094-07:002020-05-20T23:05:48.094-07:00New paper: Paleolithic to Bronze Age Siberians Rev...New paper: Paleolithic to Bronze Age Siberians Reveal Connections with First Americans and across Eurasia, Yu et al (2020)<br />https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30502-X.pdf<br /><br />East Asian ancestry apparently did not completely replace ANE ancestry around Lake Baikal region.Also some samples from the Late Neolithic-Bronze Age period carry Steppe ancestry (and the plague). <br /><gamerz_Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10051893158540001073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-60665568523228256572020-05-19T18:18:32.100-07:002020-05-19T18:18:32.100-07:00I don't think the presence of Goats really sup...I don't think the presence of Goats really supports the contentions implied in the above remarksM.H. _82https://www.blogger.com/profile/04914628294379302353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-71052281053892152842020-05-19T17:19:59.033-07:002020-05-19T17:19:59.033-07:00@MH_82
Well, while I overall agree with you that ...@MH_82<br /><br />Well, while I overall agree with you that evidence is lacking for a significant Indo-European contribution to N. China during the 3rd mBC, one could perhaps argue that the ANE signal that the recent paper suggested in Han (but not Tibetans and Japanese-though I doubt Tibetans don't have it if Han do) represented as admixture from Paleo-siberians, could instead be due to gamerz_Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10051893158540001073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55024202884211818352020-05-19T17:12:30.539-07:002020-05-19T17:12:30.539-07:00@Jatt_Scythian
So regarding the haplogroups, E mo...@Jatt_Scythian<br /><br />So regarding the haplogroups, E most likely arose in a Eurasian or closely related population. I'd say it is not SSA. Regarding P, I stand by that it is ENA, based on what we know today. <br /><br />"Isn't C1b still found in Asia today? Also how much East Asian is there in Iran_N, ANE, EHG and Steppe MLBA?"<br /><br />If you mean the mtDNA subclade, I gamerz_Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10051893158540001073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11962852403747759302020-05-19T16:40:55.523-07:002020-05-19T16:40:55.523-07:00@ FrankN
''For Southern Outer Mongolia, I...@ FrankN<br /><br />''For Southern Outer Mongolia, Inner Mongolia and the Middle Yellow River basin, we don't have yet any CA/BA aDNA. As such, Chang's theory of an IE elite taking over N. China during the second half of the 3rd mBC can currently neither be proven, nor disproven by aDNA.''<br /><br />That's not true. Although of heterogeneous methodology, there is a M.H. _82https://www.blogger.com/profile/04914628294379302353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78361305589403538182020-05-19T15:06:10.362-07:002020-05-19T15:06:10.362-07:00@Samuel Andrews
I mean Tajikistan is in Central A...@Samuel Andrews<br /><br />I mean Tajikistan is in Central Asia and was and still is predominantly West Eurasian. P might be East Asian in a geographic sense (which makes sense given how east Yana was) but do you think it was associated with East Asian/Australoid/Negrito people (ENA)?Jatt_Scythianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07404099116513757448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-60380878346356409672020-05-19T12:39:13.608-07:002020-05-19T12:39:13.608-07:00@Ric Hern,
Are you saying BAsal Eurasian pops liv...@Ric Hern,<br /><br />Are you saying BAsal Eurasian pops lived in North Africa till West Eurasian pops with mtDNA U6 migrated into Africa and mixed with them? <br /><br />@Jatt Scythian,<br /><br />I'd agree Y DNA K2, including P, are Eastern Asian whatever that means in a geographic sense. It could mean they are from Tajikstan. Not necessarily East Asian as people usually think of it. <br />Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-47244361685874888052020-05-19T11:35:20.274-07:002020-05-19T11:35:20.274-07:00@Samuel Andrews
So the idea that E is SSA and P i...@Samuel Andrews<br /><br />So the idea that E is SSA and P is SE Asian are wrong in your opinion?Jatt_Scythianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07404099116513757448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36824436037025085142020-05-19T10:38:11.049-07:002020-05-19T10:38:11.049-07:00I think the back migrations into Africa basically ...I think the back migrations into Africa basically mixed up all pure Basal Eurasian relatives. So any samples younger than 35 000 years old I will not expect to so anything in that line. I think 60-70 000 years old samples will be more informative...and even then it could stay illusive...Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9363911122516580052020-05-19T09:25:39.681-07:002020-05-19T09:25:39.681-07:00@Wise Dragon,
If Basal Eurasian lived in Africa, ...@Wise Dragon,<br /><br />If Basal Eurasian lived in Africa, they were Eurasians in Africa. Just as modern North Africans are basically Eurasians in Africa. They are Africans of ancient Eurasian origin.<br /><br />But it is very unlikely Basal Eurasian lived in Africa. They were certainly native to Southwest Asia. <br /><br />I've said many times but towards deaf ears.....Basal Eurasian wasn&#Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76939783328447103532020-05-19T02:53:16.206-07:002020-05-19T02:53:16.206-07:00@EastPole & vAsiSTha
“The biggest festival wh...@EastPole & vAsiSTha<br /><br />“The biggest festival when lamps are floated on rivers is at the end of Kartika month, on day of Kartika full moon. This has more to do with the lamps than rivers, as lamps are lit everyhere.”<br /><br />The same ritual is observed in Odisha as _Kartika Purnima Boita Bandana Utsava_, a name that can be roughly translated as ‘festival held on the full moon in Francesco Brighentihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10816565356789067261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75762686253567794462020-05-18T20:51:29.428-07:002020-05-18T20:51:29.428-07:00@Matt,
"@wise dragon, "Basal Eurasian&q...@Matt,<br /><br />"@wise dragon, "Basal Eurasian" was used because it's component that is a) Basal to other Eurasian ancestry, b) found in Eurasian groups today.<br /><br />If a population matching that description were found in Africa, there'd be a pretty quick, uncontroversial switch to naming after where they were found. <br /><br />But until that happens, it wouldn'Wise dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04528558596323917503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46943456762504576472020-05-18T15:00:21.082-07:002020-05-18T15:00:21.082-07:00Rob: "you might be aware that 3 aDNA papers h...Rob: "<i>you might be aware that 3 aDNA papers have come to light on East Asia so far. <br />They have shown that during the period in question the furthest expansion of WSHs was western Mongolia.</i>"<br /><br />Well, there is that Afanasievo sample in Jeong e.a. 2020: "<i>an Early Bronze Age (EBA) site in the southern Khangai Mountains of central Mongolia has yielded FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21488750592084581522020-05-18T13:36:31.839-07:002020-05-18T13:36:31.839-07:00What about the Neo-Assyrian empire? It was establi...What about the Neo-Assyrian empire? It was established before the Persians or Alexander established their empires. The Mongolian empire of the Middle Ages was even more impressive. And don't tell me it was too late. The British empire was even later, yet you mention it as an example for IE empiresSimon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29838372677814637062020-05-18T07:04:24.026-07:002020-05-18T07:04:24.026-07:00Isn't C1b still found in Asia today?
Also how...Isn't C1b still found in Asia today?<br /><br />Also how much East Asian is there in Iran_N, ANE, EHG and Steppe MLBA?Jatt_Scythianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07404099116513757448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36732672719025799462020-05-18T01:25:10.121-07:002020-05-18T01:25:10.121-07:00Frank, for example, Chang omits Slavic horse names...Frank, for example, Chang omits Slavic horse names: Polish "mierzyn", Ruthenian "mierin", Polish "marcha".ambronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238484037682022972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64924330186193877202020-05-18T00:24:37.405-07:002020-05-18T00:24:37.405-07:00Two new papers from East Asia:
https://www.cambri...Two new papers from East Asia:<br /><br />https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/70D28FAB333D120EA9F4701AE192C891/S2513843X2000016Xa_hi.pdf/_div_class__title__Bioarchaeological_perspective_on_the_expansion_of_Transeurasian_languages_in_Neolithic_Amur_River_basin__div_.pdf<br /><br />In this paper it is discovered that "Transeurasian" fisher-hunters datedKristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-86815197437252001512020-05-17T23:45:07.609-07:002020-05-17T23:45:07.609-07:00@All
I just realized that Yamnaya_Caucasus was mi...@All<br /><br />I just realized that Yamnaya_Caucasus was missing from all of the relevant Global25 datasheets. No idea what the hell happened there, but it's now back...<br /><br /><a href="https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html" rel="nofollow">Global25 datasheets</a><br /><br /><a href="https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I8HRIf-F61Ytk-Mhz-vmGnhvOk21fF6e" Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59661174994670937012020-05-17T23:40:50.255-07:002020-05-17T23:40:50.255-07:00@LucasM
Sorry, no can do. It would take too long ...@LucasM<br /><br />Sorry, no can do. It would take too long because I don't have it automatized anymore. Also, there wouldn't be much data to work with, because the SNP overlap between the samples you chose is quite poor.<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79018496645405372572020-05-17T21:26:58.350-07:002020-05-17T21:26:58.350-07:00@ FrankN
The main connection ran from steppe via ...<br />@ FrankN<br /><br />The main connection ran from steppe via Mongolia to northern China, and you might be aware that 3 aDNA papers have come to light on East Asia so far. <br />They have shown that during the period in question the furthest expansion of WSHs was western Mongolia. Central & Eastern Mongolia were in turn inhabited by different groups of people, so too were the 'Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-37392866354540856792020-05-17T21:24:47.833-07:002020-05-17T21:24:47.833-07:00My excerpts above from Chang 1998 are mostly self-...My excerpts above from Chang 1998 are mostly self-explaining. Still, a few notes:<br /><br />1. This seems to represent the earliest written evidence of a language (or at least vocabulary) shift effected by elite dominance.<br /><br />2. It goes back to Huang-ti, of apparently pastoralist background, using vehicles and domesticated horses, and in all likelyhood speaking Centum-IE, winning war FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-20853014736611609992020-05-17T21:23:06.194-07:002020-05-17T21:23:06.194-07:00From the Chang paper (p 35.f):
"Historically...From the Chang paper (p 35.f):<br /><br />"<i>Historically the emergence of Old Chinese should be connected with the founding of the Chinese Empire by Huang-ti,' the Yellow Emperor, with whom the Chinese still identify themselves today. According to Chinese historiography, he was the founder of the first state of China as well as its high civilization . The Shih - chi (Records of the FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76814520968242838942020-05-17T19:48:41.882-07:002020-05-17T19:48:41.882-07:00@ Tea
Yep it’s an interesting link between Japan &...@ Tea<br />Yep it’s an interesting link between Japan & european C1a line, although probably due to the stochasticity of history <br />K14 was C1b; suggesting greater loss of UP lineages in Europe than east Asia Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64734689841887869772020-05-17T19:45:21.605-07:002020-05-17T19:45:21.605-07:00Rob: "Whatever contact northern China had wit...Rob: "<i>Whatever contact northern China had with IE was indirect, removed by 2 degrees. </i>"<br /><br />Not sure about that, look at T. Chang 1988 (full-text pdf accesible via the link)<br />http://publikationen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/frontdoor/index/index/year/2009/docId/7147<br /><br />"In the last four years I have traced out about 1500 cognate words which would constitute FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-41110958884083899452020-05-17T18:32:41.691-07:002020-05-17T18:32:41.691-07:00@Davidski
Awesome! Thank you for the link and inf...@Davidski<br /><br />Awesome! Thank you for the link and info.RobertNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14424181842279889227noreply@blogger.com