tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post8837598031404350893..comments2024-03-19T00:15:33.844-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Ancient mitogenomes reveal Central Asian (Hunnic?) admixture in Hungarian Conquerers (Neparáczki et al. 2018 preprint)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-86095108920211493932018-02-03T23:15:03.678-08:002018-02-03T23:15:03.678-08:00@Slumbery
As always, very well said. This study s...@Slumbery<br /><br />As always, very well said. This study somewhat calls to mind the Zsolt András Bíró studies, which were very biased in their Hunnism/Turanism.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79499693525192565962018-02-03T23:09:21.102-08:002018-02-03T23:09:21.102-08:00Samuel Andrews:
"Hungarians from Romania have...Samuel Andrews:<br />"Hungarians from Romania have inbred mtDNA like lots of ethnic minorities. Also, 5% have Asian mtDNA while normal Hungarians have 1% Asian mtDNA."<br /><br />They are ethnic minorities only in the last 100 years, except the Easternmost group that live in Moldavia. And that inbred thing has more to do with small population size combined with isolation, not the Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-13930875677976053012018-02-03T22:55:44.681-08:002018-02-03T22:55:44.681-08:00Typical, that I am too preoccupied to check on thi...Typical, that I am too preoccupied to check on this blog when such an article is coming up and being discussed. I am late to the discussion, but I write here some thoughts anyway. <br /><br />This article, more precisely some earlier Hungarian articles by the team, caused some heavy debate here in Hungary (among the small minority of people who cares about population genetics). The team that Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80414744955713959102018-01-24T12:19:28.310-08:002018-01-24T12:19:28.310-08:00Their linguistic conclusions are BS. Nothing from ...Their linguistic conclusions are BS. Nothing from the data supports it. This just looks like the Hungarian equivalent of Hindu nationalists trying to shore up OIT.<br /><br />We would expect the Magyars to have Turkic mtDNA from political marriages if the Magyars had close political connections with Turkic peoples - which we know they did. And of course, genetic input is not required for languageAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18254066757067795459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44561491732642252182018-01-23T13:33:16.153-08:002018-01-23T13:33:16.153-08:00My mtDNA was found in the Globular Amphora culture...My mtDNA was found in the Globular Amphora culture! U5b2a2b1. I think it's pretty cool. It's not from a new study. I don't why I didn't notice it before. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-13233651322496700642018-01-22T09:53:38.644-08:002018-01-22T09:53:38.644-08:00I have just 5 min right now so real quick:
@Onur:...I have just 5 min right now so real quick:<br /><br />@Onur:<br />"Do you mean your father by "his"? Autosomal matches like 23andMe, Family Finder and Ancestry matches go back about 500 years at most. So your father's 23andMe match with that Hungarian should be from the Ottoman times."<br /><br />The 23andme match is of course within the Ottoman timeframe but not MomOfZohahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09787348878657753214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83214789625605312362018-01-22T09:09:09.428-08:002018-01-22T09:09:09.428-08:00I'm somewhat surprised that the authors do not...I'm somewhat surprised that the authors do not underline the fact that according to Ilumäe et al Hungarian related paternal N-Z1936's are also to be found among Volgaic Tatars and Bashkirs. Volgaic Turkic Chuvash, if I'm right, is on the other hand the only surviving Oghur Turkic language, c.f. Onogur > Hun(V)gar- and the apparent Oghur Turkic based loanwords in Hungarian.Queequeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033948224040118380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36771033557413328522018-01-22T08:18:33.620-08:002018-01-22T08:18:33.620-08:00Actually, I should mention that the ultimate origi...Actually, I should mention that the ultimate origin of the word for "lick" is not really clear. Similar words are also used in both Finnish and Mongolian.<br /><br />I suppose it would be prudent to say that the root appears to have been shared in some manner at some point in time with Turkic and Mongolic rather than to say that it is not of Finno-Ugric etymology, because it is very Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18065398847851607712018-01-22T07:24:23.977-08:002018-01-22T07:24:23.977-08:00Janko Raven Johnson said...
"Don't forge...Janko Raven Johnson said...<br /><br />"Don't forget the potential post-Hun Avar and Bulgar layers."<br /><br />The Hungarian language does contain a great deal of words that are exotic in a European context, yet not of Finno-Ugric etymology.<br /><br />Many of these words are very basic, with meanings like "summer" (Hungarian <i>nyár</i>, cf. Turkish <i>yaz</i>), "toEbizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29733146539083443692018-01-22T06:12:29.508-08:002018-01-22T06:12:29.508-08:00Don't forget the potential post-Hun Avar and B...Don't forget the potential post-Hun Avar and Bulgar layers. Janko Raven Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12538559931202702860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-239969567350785862018-01-22T05:47:17.840-08:002018-01-22T05:47:17.840-08:00@Grey I believe the Huns themselves (the original ...@Grey I believe the Huns themselves (the original Hunnic empire) didn't impact the Hungarian plain much as far as genetics is considered. It is the later Hunnified Uralics who migrated into Hungary in the late 9th century (by Wikipedia) and like Kristina wrote, they could already have been R1a dominant from living for centuries in the area of the erstwhile Corded Ware Culture.Archaeloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15442251558517281095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54727938722114238442018-01-22T05:46:23.547-08:002018-01-22T05:46:23.547-08:00"Was there some kind of civil war among the H..."Was there some kind of civil war among the Hun elite soon after they took Hungary?"<br /><br />oops, posted this before reading all the other posts discussing thisGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-57450514458226142292018-01-22T05:37:16.527-08:002018-01-22T05:37:16.527-08:00@Kristina Hunnic Empire of Attila was a conglomera...@Kristina Hunnic Empire of Attila was a conglomerate of all kinds of tribes that were picked up by the Huns in their westward swoop across the Eurasian steppes. Hunnic itself was spoken only by the chieftains and the local tribes retained their own languages. I can definitely imagine proto-Hungarian speakers near the Urals who get incorporated into the Hunnic Empire but still retain their Archaeloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15442251558517281095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-61885220847243455122018-01-22T05:27:09.114-08:002018-01-22T05:27:09.114-08:00Chetan said...
"Why did proto-Hungarians leav...Chetan said...<br />"Why did proto-Hungarians leave such a low Y-DNA influence on Hungarian populations while affecting a language shift?"<br /><br />Conquest by a specifically warrior elite might lead to a balance between a higher casualty rate and a higher reproductive rate (especially illegitimate but provided for children).<br /><br />So I'm thinking if there were two elite Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39019748273463042962018-01-22T05:18:20.005-08:002018-01-22T05:18:20.005-08:00Shahanshah of Persia said...
"Europeans had p...Shahanshah of Persia said...<br />"Europeans had practically zero influence, both genetic and cultural, on pre-Ptolemaic Egypt. At least the Steppe populations did not. Ancient Egyptians were basically Natufians with some ANF and CHG/Iran Neolitic admixture. They were not at all Europeans, not in the least bit"<br /><br />I think that's probably true of the base population but givenGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-40276004832912312582018-01-22T04:48:32.762-08:002018-01-22T04:48:32.762-08:00This paper is also relevant here: A study of the B...This paper is also relevant here: A study of the Bodrogköz population in north-eastern Hungary by Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups<br /><br />"We have determined the distribution of Y chromosomal haplotypes and haplogroups in population samples from one of the most important areas in north-eastern Hungary from many villages in the Bodrogköz. The Bodrogköz region was chosen due to itsKristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49782980995111454602018-01-22T04:12:46.469-08:002018-01-22T04:12:46.469-08:00I wonder why we discuss Hindu Nationalism and not ...I wonder why we discuss Hindu Nationalism and not Hungarian Nationalism aka Jobikism here, as the bespoken article fits well in Jobbik ideologies.gjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17280884639166555041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84756782467075638302018-01-22T03:56:40.494-08:002018-01-22T03:56:40.494-08:00Didn't the Hungarian conquerors come much afte...Didn't the Hungarian conquerors come much after the Huns that raided the Roman Empire? I am confused which group is being referred to in this paper?Archaeloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15442251558517281095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-40899506861115937152018-01-21T22:06:29.626-08:002018-01-21T22:06:29.626-08:00Hungarians from Romania have inbred mtDNA like lot...Hungarians from Romania have inbred mtDNA like lots of ethnic minorities. Also, 5% have Asian mtDNA while normal Hungarians have 1% Asian mtDNA.Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2888177404671180992018-01-21T14:46:51.594-08:002018-01-21T14:46:51.594-08:00@MomOfZoha
and I could only find that his closest...@MomOfZoha<br /><br /><i>and I could only find that his closest 23andme match is descended from the village "Turkeve" in Hungary.</i><br /><br />Do you mean your father by "his"? Autosomal matches like 23andMe, Family Finder and Ancestry matches go back about 500 years at most. So your father's 23andMe match with that Hungarian should be from the Ottoman times.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6376992248207420272018-01-21T14:01:52.854-08:002018-01-21T14:01:52.854-08:00@Kristiina:
"”The Hungarian population began ...@Kristiina:<br />"”The Hungarian population began to decrease at the time of the Ottoman conquest, reaching as low as around 39% by the end of the 18th century. The decline of the Hungarians was due to the constant wars, Ottoman raids, famines, and plagues during the 150 years of Ottoman rule. The main zones of war were the territories inhabited by the Hungarians, so the death toll depleted MomOfZohahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09787348878657753214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29171302343031049642018-01-21T13:47:54.904-08:002018-01-21T13:47:54.904-08:00From the paper:
"The large genetic diversity...From the paper:<br /><br />"The large genetic diversity of the Conquerors which seemingly assembled from multiple ethnic sources and their relative low proportion, having no lasting effect on Hungarian ethnogenesis, raises doubts about the Conqueror origin of the Hungarian language. Even if our samples represent mainly the Conqueror elite, the “elite dominance” linguistic hypothesis seems Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24818121288924874102018-01-21T13:27:07.496-08:002018-01-21T13:27:07.496-08:00@ Kristiina
It seems Late (east) Germanic groups ...@ Kristiina <br />It seems Late (east) Germanic groups also partook in Magyar ethnogenesis (recall the 2x U106 from an earlier study by same team)<br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68709574197991795412018-01-21T11:54:46.069-08:002018-01-21T11:54:46.069-08:00@a On a side note, most of the shared ancestry bet...@a On a side note, most of the shared ancestry between upper and lower castes is ancient. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783059930095629402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-35903053313591104062018-01-21T11:52:24.993-08:002018-01-21T11:52:24.993-08:00@a Well upper castes are not really that related t...@a Well upper castes are not really that related to lower castes. Of course, there is some shared ancestry, obviously, but genetically, there's not much relation. <br /><br />And yeah, even upper castes have Dravidian/ASI/Onge ancestry. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783059930095629402noreply@blogger.com