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Tuesday, June 1, 2021

Eagle country


I took this photo of an eagle yesterday while hiking up a steep, rocky mountain, and wanted to share it with everyone here. This bird was one of six massive eagles that were thermal surfing in the valleys below.
Right after I took the picture I stepped on a small but unusually sharp rock that was sticking out of the ground. Incredibly, it cut through the sole of my shoe like the proverbial hot knife through butter, but only grazed my foot.

Nevertheless, I was in a lot of pain and decided to call it a day. I made my way down the mountain initially by hopping on one leg, and then, after collapsing twice from exhaustion, by crawling on all fours.

Overall, despite almost losing a foot, it was an awesome experience and I'm planning to go back into the mountains soon.

See also...

Lizard Gorge

404 comments:

1 – 200 of 404   Newer›   Newest»
Davidski said...

Let's make this an open thread. What's on your minds folks?

Copper Axe said...

Thats a cool photo man, are you into nature photography? I've always been jealous of the degree of wilderness you guys have down under compared to what we have in the Netherlands lol. I hope your foot heals up alright!

I was out and about yesterday as well since I had just finished a project for uni, and I'm having a little break now.

I spend the day chilling at this small beautiful lake with some friends just summering it up: swimming, drinking, blazing, barbecueing etc. Fun times.

I eventually went for a little hike to look for European bisons, which have been introduced here from Poland (the last place where the wild ones still roam around) as I knew they were nearby. I did manage to find them but they were quite a distance away so I have no pretty Natural Geographic shots to share from my end. Magnificant animals though and huge too!

Davidski said...

Yep, I take wildlife and hiking photos.

European bison (or wisent) are awesome. Pity the aurochs went extinct.

Simon_W said...

While not really a substitute for the aurochs, the Iberian toro de lidia has inherited much of its beauty and ferocity:
https://youtu.be/o9_oazHNuW0

I'm not advocating the corrida here, nor the even more cruel Spanish village "games". Just pointing out that not all domesticated cattle are lame ducks.

Genos Historia said...

Just another day in the Outback.

Cool you are into hiking. That is something we can all as dudes can appreciate. The earliest human art is of impressive animals for a reason.





Rich S. said...

Overall that sounds like a great experience, except for the injury, but perhaps that will help fix it in your mind as a permanent memory.

I too am looking forward to a post-Covid world and the advent of some of the papers you mentioned back in December.

MH_82 said...

Aurochs were a staple of Ice Age hunters in the Black Sea region

Genos Historia said...

Yummy. I bet aurochs tasted like steak. Lol. Too bad they went extinct :(

Modern cattle are domesticated aurochs so.....

sds said...

You can see why so many peoples in times past honored and respected a powerful and majestic specimen like the eagle. Getting out into nature does everybody good.

Nyan said...

@Davidski

Can you add Zlaty Kun and all Bacha Kiro samples to G25 spreadsheet? oldest BK is missing.

John Thomas said...

What species of eagle is it?

Dave the Slothtopus said...

@Davidski - Glad you made it out okay, other than getting perforated by very pointy rocks. At least it wasn't snowing.
Next time don't sign up for the Ötzi-style tour.

old europe said...


Davidski

when do you plan to come out with the new post on the whole issue of steppe ancestry?

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

You ever think something interesting will arise from Australia paleogenetics.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

Speaking of aurochs:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJNA294709
https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-015-0790-2

Geokurgan said...

Great photo. I am a huge raptor fan. On another note, if blue eyes were introduced from the Black Sea region some thousands of years ago, how did the European Hunter Gatherers also have them?

Richard Rocca said...

Since you "STEPPE-D" on a rock, did you curse in an IE language? Hahahaha
All kidding aside, cool picture David and hope you heal quickly.

Davidski said...

@John Thomas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge-tailed_eagle

Mum said...

Just got my mtDNA. U2e1d. Seems like it's from the Steppe. What do you think?

Bob Floy said...

Great photo, great story.

Genos Historia said...

Local mtDNA expert here.

U2e1d you say? I literally can't find one sample of U2e1d in my database of modern and ancient mtDNA. This is in part due to U2e1d being defined by a CR region mutation. The CR region is rarely tested in modern mtDNA.

U2e1 was signature lineage of Central-Eastern European hunter gatherers (it was rare though). "Steppe" people mostly derived from them so had U2e1. But, not all U2e1 is Steppe.

Until your specific subclade is linked to Steppe you can't say it is for sure from them. But considering almost all U2e1 in Europe today is of Steppe origin chances are it is.

I'm curious what country your U2e1d is from because this is literally the first time I've heard of it.

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos Historia “ Yummy. I bet aurochs tasted like steak. Lol. Too bad they went extinct :(

Modern cattle are domesticated aurochs so....”

Did anyone here have a taste of a reindeer? I heard it’s a delicacy in Scandinavia. They are impossible to get anywhere here in the USA.

Romulus said...

I am hoping aliens will be able to shed some light on early human development.

Copper Axe said...

@Andrzejewski

I've had it here in the Netherlands but also got my hands on it in Canada. Its good, I preferred moose however. Seal meat however now that was some of the best meat I tasted. Absurdly cheap too.

Is it really impossible to get in the US? Or just very expensive? They still roam about in Montana and Idaho iirc.

andrew said...

Welcome to my world (living in the Rocky Mountains)!

Tigran said...

Do people agree with the new paper that suggest BachoKiro/Ust-Ishim/Oase were East Eurasian or the older papers where they were undifferentiated crown Eurasians?

Ric Hern said...

I don't know about Reindeer but had a taste of a very expensive Fallow Deer. Converted about $6000 US. It appeared in my headlights one morning on my way to work. Just my luck, a Fallow Deer in Africa....

Soon some Steppe Eagles will arrive here in our area, grassy plains. Sometimes see some Black Eagles exploring overhead. Their nests should be about 200 kms from us.

If I remember correctly the Wisent have some Aurochs Genes...

Ric Hern said...

Sorry not Black Eagle rather > Verreaux's eagle (Aquila verreauxii)

Davidski said...

There are fallow deer running around here too. I see them regularly on my hikes, usually at sunrise.

That's despite the fact that they're heavily persecuted, and even shot at from helicopters by park rangers in conservation reserves, because they're feral animals.

Ryan said...

My office is next to a chicken slaughterhouse. Every once in a while a chicken escapes. The eagles swoop in almost immediately. I'll see if I can find a picture to share of one of these fat, lazy chicken eating eagles.

Ric Hern said...

@ Davidski

It is interesting how many invasive species do better outside the area where they originated. Wonder if Marsupials can do better in Africa ? Like the Mice Plague there by you guys...

Davidski said...

@Ryan

I suspect that you might be referring to chickenhawks rather than eagles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-tailed_hawk

I'm not sure, but I've never heard of actual eagles preying on chickens in an urban or suburban setting.

Garvan said...

I often wondered what I would do if I broke an ankle or something while walking alone in the forest, as I am prone to do when birdwatching. I imagined I would find or cut myself a stick. I am usually within 8 km of my vehicle, more often half that distance. Crawling back on hand and knees would be a nightmare.

Happy you made it back safely.

weure said...

Fascinating such eagle eye perspective, seen from eagle perspective, something about the IE expansions and the "(proto) Germanic Urheimat". IMO this has to be placed in Central (East) Germany.

'Dry cooked' imo this happened:

As such this is may be to explain because of:
- 2850 BC Single Grave that was rooted in the Mittle-Elbe Saale region/ Central Germany (see Refshøjgård 2005, Egfjord 2021);
- 1850 BC Sögel-Wohlde (EBA) that was also present in the Mittle-Elbe Saale Region (see Oxford Bronze Age Encyclopedia);
- An enduring interaction between Mittle-Elbe Saale Region, North German Plain/ Southern Scandinavia during MBA and LBA (see Butler 1986, Vandkilde 1996, Bergerbrant 2007, 2012).

First: the (pre) Germanic language development with Celtic and Italic as near and influencing neighbors argues strongly against a Scandic heartland, but points at Unetice/ Saale region.

Second: in staccato the way was Unetice>Sögel-Wohlde>Valsømagle, not the other way around.

The woman and man in Sögel-Wohlde wore Unetice like clothes, the man had Unetice battle gear, and their graves were strict according the Unetice social codes.

This is Sögel-Wohlde area: Northern Netherlands (Drenthe), NW Niedersachsen, Schleswig up to Jutland. The core was in Dithmarchen/ Schleswig outmost NW Germany, bordering Denmark.


Third: genetically there is a strong connection with the upheal of R1b U106, it's imo no coincidence that two of the oldest samples are found in Unetice (Jimonice) and in Sögel-Wohlde (Oostwoud 1800 BC), it even caused a real founder effect in the Sögel-Wohlde area (and not in Scania, although Scania is affected by it, but again it went to Scania not from Scania).

Autosomal in G25 PCA North and Northwest Europe: Halberstadt LBA, Bronze Age Denmark, MA-DEU (Germanics migration ages), modern Danes and NE Dutch are in one cluster! Same melting pot? It looks like...

Frankly the Scandic Urheimat theory is initiated by a Nordicist agenda (Ludwig Wilser end nineteenth century). At such this still could reflect reality, but it simply lacks evidence, even from the beginning it did. So it's a kind of wishful thinking, not evidence based. But I must admit it is a quit successful frame.... It's a pity you can't read German because what Sprockhoff stated is really a clear example that his Nordicist believe prevents him to see the Sögel-Wohlde people as (pre or) proto-Germanic which they really where....

mzp1 said...

Matriarchy > Patriarchy.

Its happening and it will be like nothing anyone has seen or heard about.

Afterall, i think even PIE was originally non-Patriarchal.

Davidski said...

@Garvan

Luckily I was only about 1km from the car.

But foot injuries can be very painful, even if they're only minor. I need better hiking shoes.

ejmohr said...

Davidski - that's a great photo! Hopefully your foot is merely scratched, although it sounds more painful than that, and you will soon be 100%. Are you sure you didn't step on a paleolithic knife - some of those are impressively sharp.

Copper Axe - you are from Holland/Netherlands which is where I was born. Last time I was back, which was ages ago, my grandfather was quite excited because they had just discovered the site, or so they thought, of the Teutoburg Forest battle site. Now you are telling me they have introduced Wisent!? I'm assuming they introduced then in Germany and they are expanding, or did they actually set some loose in NL? They are huge animals

Ric Hern said...

2021 and still no clarity about CHG and the precise location of Horse Domestication.

Shuzam87 said...

@Genos Historia https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U2e1d/ There seem to be a few samples from Yfull.

Ryan said...

@David - No, these are bald eagles. 7' wingspan, the full deal.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLZaOBjBXSOauAlSDfiLB69JDX5nYH3qABLubE0/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CNWVStHsfxGfbsHln__v0O33CuCudZ4EEj4jnA0/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CNRCJQOMRTtRXF_O2usV9PR8aHW9DW1fOIStVY0/

The chickens in question are some sort of black ornamental chickens though. Might be crossed with a pheasant or something? They are calling it chicken when they sell it at least.

There's also a large (100+) population of bald eagles that hang out at the dump and pick off rats. They're a bit of a pest because they don't tend to eat the bottom half of the rat and instead drop it in the neighbourhood.

Copper Axe said...

@Ejmohr

Yeah they introduced them to back in 2007 for a trial run regarding the reintroduction of the bison in nature, as they (used to) play an important role in the ecosystem as large grazers. It was a success and now they have them in several spots.

I don't think they came from Germany. These animals are quite "managed" by the way, gps tracked etc.

Davidski said...

@ejmohr

The rock sliced my shoe and sock, but didn't penetrate my foot. So it's only a painful scratch and bruise and I didn't end up going to emergency, but I'm still limping a bit.

Wisent are being re-introduced in many parts of the EU, including the Netherlands, from a large herd in the Bialowieza forest in Poland. This is being done to ensure that disease or some other disaster doesn't wipe them all out.

MH_82 said...

That’s lucky then, no foot amputation required

Davidski said...

@Rob

How deep does a rock or piece of wood have to penetrate a leg before medical attention is required, even if there's no significant blood loss?

Davidski said...

@Ryan

OK, interesting.

The eagles I photographed are close cousins of the golden eagle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_eagle

But we also have white-bellied sea eagles along the coast here, and they're closely related to the bald eagle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-bellied_sea_eagle

Ric Hern said...

@ Davidski

Depends on how clean the rock was. Knew a guy who got Gangrene from a small scratch of a cows horn...

phodges said...

>What's on your minds folks?

How did that CHG-like ancestry get into the Steppe?

MH_82 said...

The sprained ankle should heal on its own. But if there is throbbing , redness etc then it might be infected in which case might need antibiotics

Simon_W said...

There, watch a banderillero being killed by a bull, if you're old enough (cause of youtube age restrictions). Pay special attention to the human blood on the bull's left horn:
https://youtu.be/pF7PwUDEiV0

Simon_W said...

Speaking of youtube vids, I really like a wide variety of music styles, but when I'm a little intoxicated and want to celebrate my tribal, pagan IE roots, I listen to songs like this one:
https://youtu.be/mwg6QWWw3_A

The lyrics are good as well, with the exception of the line "sunrise over Athena", which I find awful. (There is, or rather was, a political party called "golden dawn" in Greece.)

Simon_W said...

It seems quite possible to me that the ferocity of the Spanish fighting bull doesn't directly stem from the aurochs. After all they were bred for aggressiveness for centuries. It may be rather comparable to pitbulls and similar breeds of dogs who exceed wolves in agressiveness towards humans by far. And of course the aurochs was taller, due to longer legs. Though it varied; those in Poland or Denmark were taller than those in Hungary for instance.

Genos Historia said...

@Ric Hern,

I should finish my CHG video tomorrow. I'll probably be saying stuff you already know. Whatever.

But hopefully I'll convince you guys even more so that the CHG ancestry in Kurgans is indigenous to the Steppe.

It will open up interesting discussion at the least.

Genos Historia said...

@Davidski,

mtDNA is always a sanity check for ancestry models. I'm looking at mtDNA to see if there is support for an old origin of Steppe's CHG ancestry. This will be cool to see.

Andrzejewski said...

@Genos Historia “ mtDNA is always a sanity check for ancestry models. I'm looking at mtDNA to see if there is support for an old origin of Steppe's CHG ancestry. This will be cool to see.”

IIRC it was Ric Hern in the other thread claiming that CHG was on the Eastern European Steppe before EHG and that it was instrumental (albeit in small doses) to the formation of Karelia HG. If true, it may be the one ancestral to the CHG in Yamnaya.

epoch said...

The largest eagle in the Netherlands is the erne (White tailed eagle). The first time I saw one far away I actually mistook it for a plane.

Really good picture! Worth the foot injury?

Davidski said...

@epoch

Really good picture! Worth the foot injury?

Yes, I think so.

Davidski said...

Here are a few more shots from my hiking trip.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8TA95F4vT-o/YLipyAyyynI/AAAAAAAAKCw/ejvSQNAGkJcLEmY0hF53JzQtLbO07loPQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1500/Eagle_gorge2.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JF10aVKx7t8/YLiqDEJiuhI/AAAAAAAAKC4/nw8RYA-YolEoQnLavNKN8a8lKAmzrCbIACLcBGAsYHQ/s1500/Eagle_gorge3.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6nm8O-WvPU4/YLiqQ5XJKEI/AAAAAAAAKC8/enhxZQFft44p3Yd7RvJiZljL5oWZcuaHQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1500/Echidna_gorge.jpg

Ryan said...

Nice shots!

Onur Dincer said...

Cool pictures. Maybe one day I come upon a golden eagle in its natural habitat in my country.

Davidski said...

@Copper Axe

I saw your post at AG about F004.

Please keep in mind that this is a noisy sample with a coverage of just 0.146153 (!) and with very complex ancestry.

It really shouldn't be used as evidence of Afanasievo ancestry being present in the Tarim Basin into the Iron Age, or, in fact, as evidence for anything at all.

There was Sintashta ancestry all over the area, and we have direct proof that it existed in the Shirenzigou nomads because there's Z93 in them.

There was also a lot of local Botai-like ancestry in the area, which can easily confound fine scale models involving Sintashta and Yamnaya ancestry.

And there were even actual Yamnaya burials nearby at Karagash!

weure said...

I hope you recover soon David!

I'm curios if in the IE-expansion and in the (pre) Germanic development in the end this will basically be the case:

a. an IE expansion from the Saale-Elbe (Central Germany) to NW Europe called Single Grave ± 2850 BC, R1b P312.
b. an IE expansion from the Saale-Elbe (Central Germany) to NW Europe called Sögel-Wohlde ± 1850 BC, R1b U106.

We will see if this is fata morgana......or not.

MH_82 said...

I recall the Shgz nomads are rather heterogeneous, although probably clinal

Davidski said...

@weure

There's one U106 in yet to be published Dutch Beakers.

So I reckon that U106 was pretty common in Single Grave, all the way from the Netherlands to Denmark.

weure said...

@Davidski may be there will R1b U106 in SGC, but may be it will be 'too late' about 2600BC R1b U106 was according to Iain Mc Donald somewhere in Central-East Germany (line between Hamburg and Berlin).

We have a Sögel-Wohde/ Elp sample from Oostwoud (about 1800 BC) though.

I'm curios what the newR1b U106 sample from the Dutch Beaker wil bring! Any idea where this BB is from (place/region)?

Anyhow seen the roots of SGC in Saale-Elbe, the 'circuit' stays the same: SGC, Beakers, Sögel-Wohlde is an interaction between Saale-Elbe and the North Sea coast...

Seinundzeit said...

The shots are superb; quite striking.

But hey:

I wish you a speedy, healthy, and robust recovery!

weure said...

Short Shorter shortest ;)

Saale IE> SGC North Sea,

SGC>BB,

North Sea BB> Saale BB,

Saale BB> Unetice,

Unetice Saale> North Sea Sogel-Wohlde.

Davidski said...

@weure

I don't know much more than that, although from memory those samples are from around the same region as the last ones.

I personally believe that the SGC/BBC U106 is ancestral to modern U106 in Germanics, while the U106 that ended up in Bohemia and surrounds went extinct.

@Sein

Thanks.

Copper Axe said...

@Davidski

We talked about this through the PMs earlier, in fact I even asked you specifically if low coverage and WSHG/ WSHG+Steppe_EN (Kumsay etc) could screw up the results.

But to get back to that point, is F004 the only sample with horrid coverage? Because it is the only one that shows a steppe_EMBA shift even with the right WSHG reference populations. Tried it with several steppe+WSHG combos and I kind of consistently got those results.

The bronze age samples from Kyrgyzstan work as a good proxy with their Iran_N and Kumsay/Mereke mixed profile. Given the works of Frachetti regarding pastoral movements on the mountain ranges, in combination with some new archaeology data points, I think you had populations related to this sample in the Eastern Tian Shan and the Basins prior to Indo-European arrival.

If the others have similar shitty coverage shouldnt they be equally shaky in that regards? They all seem consistent with being a mix of bronze age eastern Tian Shan populations ad iron age Altaic populations, both steppe_mlba rich and presumeably Indo-Iranian speaking. Xiao Yuezhi really is the best bet for these populations based on time, location, archaeological site and ancestry.

I hope those new Chemurchek and Iron age Tarim Basin samples get included in a new article which looks at autosomal ancestry. Those researchers supported the Afanasievo > Chemurchek > Tocharian route but I'd like a little more evidence than mtdna.

It would also be cool to have some Afanasievo samples from sites in Xinjiang as this is where the trade with Tian Shan populations occurred and lead to the Chemurchek profiles we saw later on.

weure said...

@Davidski ok thanks!

At some point an "IE R1b U106 clan" most have entered the circuit.

Two options:

1. The 'mutant' to R1b U106 is originated along the BB Norm Sea Coast and then in the circuit.
2. The 'mutant' to R1b U106 comes (via or from) the Elbe/Saale in the circuit.

I would set my cards on 2 because its a bridge head to PC Steppe/ IE horizon.

Nevertheless the North Sea/ Elbe-Saale connections were close so once it was in the circuit it would be like a corona spreading event.....




Davidski said...

@Copper Axe

Most of those samples are low coverage, but 0.146 is pretty bad, and there's really no way to run a reliable fine scale ancestry analysis on such data.

Strange things won't always happen with such shitty coverage and noise, but there's a very good chance that something is way off there.

The claim that these nomads have any Afanasievo ancestry is actually quite extraordinary for a number of reasons (I won't even go into the idiotic claim that they don't have any Sintashta ancestry), so we really need some decent proof.

In my mind, decent proof in this case would be at least a couple of samples with decent coverage showing a clear autosomal signal of Afanasievo ancestry, and also Afanasievo uniparentals like Z2103.

Copper Axe said...

@Davidski

"The claim that these nomads have any Afanasievo ancestry is actually quite extraordinary for a number of reasons (I won't even go into the idiotic claim that they don't have any Sintashta ancestry), so we really need some decent proof."

The claims of Ning and co are certainly way off the mark no disagreement there (even crazier is that other articles corroborated their findings!), but I don't think it is all that extraordinary that you could have Afanasievo-related ancestry in these populations (well, one of them).

The Chemurchek samples indicate an early bronze age presence at the least, and all you'd need is some kind of continued existence for this type of ancestry to then get assimilated into iron age nomadic populations who nearly always seemingly have a strong component of ancestry from the pre-nomadic steppe_mlba derived populations. Not to mention how often we come across admixture from neighbouring (non steppe_mlba) peoples in nomadic samples.

That said, the lack of Afanasievo ancestry here makes total sense. These populations likely hailed from slightly further east than their burial site location, as they match the period when the Xiao Yuezhi migrated westwards to form their own state/kingdom around modern day Hami. So they came from a region beyond Afanasievo/Chemurchek habitation although they might've had bronze age ancestors that lived in the vicinity of them.

The alternative would be that they were locals and the earlier bronze age populations went extinct and dissapeared without a trace, which is a hard sell for me.

As low coverage as they may be, I think this represents these samples the best:

Shirenzigou = (Steppe_mlba+Tian Shan)+(Steppe_mlba+Altay-Sayan)+ admixture from Inner Mongolian Ulaanzuukh related populations and Qiang populations.

M15-1 is odd because the sample has a lot of WSHG, basically coming up to something around 51% KGZ_BA related ancestry. That is something which is strange but interesting as well if it is legit.

F004 deviates from the others in that model as she had more Inner Asian ancestry, and a lower amount of EEF which is either due to extra Steppe_EMBA or WSHG I suppose.

"In my mind, decent proof in this case would be at least a couple of samples with decent coverage showing a clear autosomal signal of Afanasievo ancestry, and also Afanasievo uniparentals like Z2103."

I agree 200% with this. Fingers crossed that those Xinjiang samples have some decent coverage!

Arza said...

Eagles are cool, but the photo with EchiDNA is the best in my opinion. It's amazing how this little fella blends into his surroundings.

Time for a new issue of the ENA news:

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJNA670050
Four newly sequenced high-coverage ancient genomes.
NE5, ZVEJ25, ZVEJ31, KK1, 82-116 GB per sample

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866
The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History

The origin, development and legacy of the enigmatic Etruscan civilization from the central region of the Italian peninsula known as Etruria has been the subject of scholarly debate for centuries. Here we report a genomic time transect of 82 individuals spanning almost two millennia (800 BCE – 1,000 CE) across Etruria and southern Italy. During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This continuity drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Finally, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages, which thus formed the genetic landscape of present-day Italian populations.

Davidski said...

@Arza

Thanks.

Anyone know what this means? Lack of Anatolian ancestry in Etruscans?

During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans.

Copper Axe said...

"
Anyone know what this means? Lack of Anatolian ancestry in Etruscans?"

A lack of Bronze age Anatolian/East Med ancestry I'm guessing.

Copper Axe said...

Speaking of Afanasievo,

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.16.431497v1.full

This article has 4 samples from a family. One mother, one father, two sons. Carrying haplogroup Q(L-330?).

Are these samples available on G25 and if not could they be added? They were in Reich's dataset iirc.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

Whoa it's almost 2/3rds of a genome for ZVEJ31. That's pretty considerable. I'd bet that this sample would hold most variants of a little WHG shifted EHG-heavy genome.

Davidski said...

Last time I looked, those samples were in many pieces, with one set of files for each chromosome.

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

Nevermind, the read count is considerable but no more than 1/15th of a whole genome, unless I'm reading this wrong.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Raw-data-statistics-for-the-newly-sequenced-libraries_tbl3_346432066

Andrzejewski said...

@Copper Axe Is it true that the medium of instruction in Dutch universities is English? I read online that throughout the EU English has been used increasingly over the past decade to encompass all Graduate/Master and Doctorate degrees.

Michalis Moriopoulos said...

@David

By lack of Anatolian ancestry in Etruscans, I'm pretty sure they're referring to Bronze/Iron Age Anatolian ancestry from a place like Troy. They're saying there's no evidence for an Anatolian origin for the Etruscans as has been proposed in the past. That said, I wonder what they mean by Central Euro, Near Easten, and North African ancestry being found in Etruria. Presumably more outliers like in the Moots study?

MH_82 said...

However, there is some Anatolia admixture in pre-Roman age Italy . So we do have vectors of transmission, but perhaps it became genetically decoupled in Etruscans

Norfern-Ostrobothnian said...

@Arza
I have taken it upon myself to map and call the allele frequencies of ZVEJ31/I4631. The sample doesn't actually seem to be synonymous with any of the Latvian Middle Neolithic so far in G25. High-coverage Kotias might be interesting.

Matt said...

Those 4 are the new re-sequenced samples that this group involving Cassidy and Pinhasi advertised on this preprint - https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.27.351692v1 - as part of a collection with 14 previously published samples. It's not nearly as many as the AGDP I think - https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/ancient-genome-diversity-project - but maybe there is some advantage to these 14.

That 2000 year Italy transect sounds cool. Hopefully this will solve this debate where some folks (perhaps not wrongly, but for reasons I just can't understand) have been stressing extensive "East Mediterranean" colonization/settlement in Italy *prior* to the Roman Empire. If the transect is that detailed. And confirm the generally not any more Anatolian-like character of Etruscans a bit more. (@Davidski, as I read it yes - no extra Anatolian ancestry in Etruscans).

Genos Historia said...

They confuse basic components with regions. I getting tired of experts doing this.

'Southern European' geneflow in Viking Scandinavia is actually French and German geneflow.
'Northern European' geneflow in Medieval Italy is probably Northern Italian geneflow.

A generally more northern profile isn't northern geneflow, a generally more southern profile isn't southern geneflow. The authors need to figure out how to interpret data, before an a-historical view of Medieval Europe becomes consensus.

Finally, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages

Dave the Slothtopus said...

@Davidski "I don't know much more than that, although from memory those samples are from around the same region as the last ones.

I personally believe that the SGC/BBC U106 is ancestral to modern U106 in Germanics, while the U106 that ended up in Bohemia and surrounds went extinct."

^^Nevertheless, great news. So it's from a different Beaker site in the Netherlands? Is it just a U106 guy or are there multiple finds? It's a stroke of luck whenever any aDNA finds happen there, the soil is bone-preservation Hell.

Matt said...

Not on my mind but may be of interest to folks given we're PCA obsessed ; ) - https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.15.444294v2 - "Kernel Local Fisher Discriminant Analysis of Principal Components (KLFDAPC) significantly improves the accuracy of predicting geographic origin of individuals"

Method by Charleston Chiang and two collaborators: "Geographic patterns of human genetic variation provide important insights into human evolution and disease. A commonly used tool to detect geographic patterns from genetic data is principal components analysis (PCA) or a hybrid linear discriminant analysis of principal components (DAPC). However, genetic features produced from both approaches are only linear combinations of genotypes, which ineluctably miss nonlinear patterns hidden in the genetic variations and could fail to characterize the correct population structure for more complex cases. In this study, we introduce Kernel Local Fisher Discriminant Analysis of Principal Components (KLFDAPC), a nonlinear approach for inferring individual geographic genetic structure that could rectify the limitations of these linear approaches by preserving the nonlinear information and the multimodal space of samples. We tested the power of KLFDAPC to infer population structure and to predict individual geographic origin using simulations and real data sets. "

I don't know if it would matter to the applications *we* use PCA for (projecting ancients, solving these distance minimization using Vahaduo to estimate ancestry) but they're able to get more geography correlation out of POPRES with this method than they can for 2D PCA, where Spain, Britain and Poland are more where they *should* be according to geography.

E.g. - https://imgur.com/a/DM7U3Dn

(Also the case with a Han Chinese dataset, which is more of a struggle to get anything out of)

They think this might be useful for establishing more clearly geography based genetic associations. It seems very dataset dependent though and I'm not sure if it would produce the same results with e.g. Human Origins. (I guess I also wonder about geography based associations; they make sense if populations were evolving in same region largely, but I don't know if they make as much sense if, e.g. a population only living somewhere only actually arriveed from further NE 1500 years ago, to take one disputed example, etc.)

Davidski said...

@Dave

There are several samples from that burial site, and these also include P312 individuals.

Genos Historia said...

I'm going to do a video on Corded Ware next. The CHG video is a pain in mine ass. It will be like 20 minutes long. It is why I am not done yet.

Y DNA clans in Corded Ware might have been like this. This will be interesting to explore.

Poland Germany=R1a L664
Russia=R1a Z93
Poland Lithuania=R1a Z280
Sweden=R1a Z284
Germany Netherlands Denmark=R1b L51

Arza said...

https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/1400895830710652928

Nick Patterson asked me to advertise that
there is a new version of ADMIXTOOLS on github.

https://github.com/DReichLab/AdmixTools

This fixes a serious bug in which qpfstats produced
erroneous answers if:

1) allsnps: YES
2) inbreed: NO
3) There are samples with pseudo-diploid data (as in most aDNA).

This could also have affected qpGraph with allsnps: YES, inbreed: NO
Nick believes the bug was introduced in June 2020.


There is also a new version of smartpca:

*** NEW ***
hiprecision: YES
(default no) ; Eigenvectors are written out with 2 more decimal places
*** NEW *** lsqproject: NO is no longer supported as it does not seem useful (but see fastmode).
(NEW) New version: newshrink: YES technical variation of shrinkmode, should be (slightly)
[faster?]
(NEW) elliptical confidence ellipses.
*** numoutevec MUST be 2. (May improve this at some time.
(NEW) Absolute limit in number of populations is 1000 (change #define MAXPOPS 1000 in .../eigensrc/smartpca.c) but default is 100.

Vinitharya said...

@Genos Historia

You forgot something in your haplogroup tribe location comment-M458. Were we on Mars? I mean, I know it wasn't a populous line back then, but it had to be somewhere. Origin at 4800 BP, right during Corded Ware. I'm going to be floating out a spot-Silesia/Lusatia.

Rich S. said...


Genos Historia said:

"I'm going to do a video on Corded Ware next. The CHG video is a pain in mine ass. It will be like 20 minutes long. It is why I am not done yet.

Y DNA clans in Corded Ware might have been like this. This will be interesting to explore.

Poland Germany=R1a L664
Russia=R1a Z93
Poland Lithuania=R1a Z280
Sweden=R1a Z284
Germany Netherlands Denmark=R1b L51"

A lot of R1b-L51 has turned up in Corded Ware in SE Poland (Małopolska) lately, and Małopolska features burials from the CWC-X Horizon, which are considered "Pre-Corded Ware", i.e., from the transition period (3000-2900 BC) between Yamnaya and the Corded Ware A Horizon. Take a look at Linderholm et al and at the comments from Polish archaeologist Piotr Włodarczak at the recent Yamnaya conference if Helsinki.

Genos Historia said...

@Vinitharya,

Isn't R1a M458 derived from R1a Z280 though?

I don't know anything about Eastern European R1a other than R1a Z280 is the base clade. I'll be studying the basics for my Corded Ware video. I'd appreciate it if you or any in the comments can tell me anything useful about Eastern European R1a that helps understand its origins.


@Rich S,

I know R1b L51 origins is a developing. I'll make it clear in the video I am sharing my opinion. I am open for discussion.

But, I am confident R1b L51 comes from Single Grave.

The R1b L51 in Southeastern Poland is hard to explain. But it is still Corded Ware. And I don't think it outweighs the evidence for a Northwestern origin for R1b P312, R1b U106.

Copper Axe said...

L51 is quite a bit older than the CWC and cannot have origimated within it.

The R1b L51 in southeastern Poland is likely a reflection of the migration route L51 carriers undertook from the steppes to reach the locations they did.

MH_82 said...

I didnt think much R1a had turned up in Polish CWC.
The finding of R1b-V3616 certainly helps understand that CWC-broadly speaking had various R1-lineages

Copper Axe said...

@Andrzejewski

"Is it true that the medium of instruction in Dutch universities is English? I read online that throughout the EU English has been used increasingly over the past decade to encompass all Graduate/Master and Doctorate degrees."

Yeah kinda.

There are tons of "international" degrees right now, many programmes are just internationally oriented because foreign students get charged a lot more.

There also is an issue in that regular university programmes that arent supposed to be international are increasingly becoming more and more conducted en anglais.

This isn't limited to just masters/graduates but even undergraduate degrees suffer from it.

Romulus said...

The funny thing about placing the origin of R1b L51 in SGC is that the only Y DNA we have from SGC is even further from L51 than Yamna.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ The finding of R1b-V3616 certainly helps understand that CWC-broadly speaking had various R1-lineages”

Mind to elaborate?

MH_82 said...

@ Copper Axe

“ It would also be cool to have some Afanasievo samples from sites in Xinjiang “

Which afanasievo in Xinjiang ? Did it ever make it there ?

MH_82 said...

@ Andrze

Well it suggests that CWC moved out from (Don-Volga) steppe perhaps as several streams , probably over several generations, with different clans taking their own routes / establishing their own niche in old Europe

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ Well it suggests that CWC moved out from (Don-Volga) steppe perhaps as several streams , probably over several generations, with different clans taking their own routes / establishing their own niche in old Europe”

Do you mean most CWC clans being R1a1 with a minority (SGC) being R1b and another minority I2a?

I’d love to know which clan invented the PIE language.

It’s approaching consensus that it was Corded Ware, and not Yamnaya, who were PIE speakers. However, I can’t cease thinking about the possibility of either Hittite or Armenian (or both) taking the Caucasus route instead of the much touted Balkan one, and therefore were the scions of Poltava or Catacomb Cultures, thus -Yamnaya. Alternatively, perhaps there’s a chance that Armenian/Anatolian branch(es) came from Yamnaya Bulgaria or Yamnaya Hungary?
,

Ric Hern said...

I still think that a Maritime route or one through Northern Poland along the Notec Westwards of R1b to Denmark and the Netherlands can not be excludes. However if it was through Southern Poland and down the Elbe to Northwestern Germany I will not burst a vain. Heheheeh.

Two things makes me think of a Northern Route. Some apparently Beaker like objects in Northeast Poland apparently dated to around 3000 BCE and the White Backed Cattle of Northeast Poland, Lithuania and Estonia and Northwestern Russia with similar type breeds found in Ireland, Britain and the Netherlands. Some of these colour characteristics was described in Celtic Myths in Pre-Viking times...and if I remember correctly the Scandinavian type MtDNA of a women found in Southern Germany during the Bell Beaker period ? Very speculative, I know.

It could also be that a split happened at the Vistula river with some R1bs taking a Northern Route and others the Southern Route. Why is there so little genetic evidence of people along the Elbe during 2900 BCE to 2600 BCE period ? This could help very much.

MH_82 said...

@ Andrze


''It’s approaching consensus that it was Corded Ware, and not Yamnaya, who were PIE speakers''

I've never heard of such a consensus. In any case, it would be wrong to believe so, for reasons which should be obvious



''However, I can’t cease thinking about the possibility of either Hittite or Armenian (or both) taking the Caucasus route instead of the much touted Balkan one''

Anatolian & Armenian are completely different branches of IE. Armenian via the Caucasus seems possible, because we have R1b-Z2013 in modern Armenians as well as the post-katakomb colonists which moved there ~ 2200 bc. Some even went further into Eats Anatolia and near East, but they likely became lingusitically extinct . However, if some ancient historians believed Armenians descend from Balkans Phrygians, then we must figure out why they believed so. Theyre words arent pure historical fact, but contain riddles & clues

Anatolian obviuosly moved via the Balkans, there's little to debate there



''Do you mean most CWC clans being R1a1 with a minority (SGC) being R1b and another minority I2a?''

'Steppe I2a' is found in Budzhak- Balkan Yamnaya & Hungarian BB. But not in CWC, instead the I2a in CWC is local Czech, German or Polish MNE individuals

MH_82 said...

@ Arza

Are you aware of any finer-detailed calls for I6622 (BB Iberia), listed in P* ? (poor coverage)

ambron said...

Matt, this is very interesting because the correlation between genetics and geography is a valuable tool for solving many historical dilemmas. A good example is the old dispute over Poles - are they autochtonus or medieval newcomers from Pripyat?

Polish genetics perfectly correlate with its geography, which can be seen not only in the graphics you link to, but also in the Anagnostou study. In contrast, Pripyat genetics are more Western than we might expect. The inhabitants of Pripyat, according to their geography, should be genetically located at least at the height of the Lithuanians, and even more shifted towards the Baltic BA. But the Pripyat population is located between Poles and Lithuanians, which clearly indicates the recent flow of genes from west to east, and contradicts the flow from east to west.

EastPole said...

@Andrzejewski
“I’d love to know which clan invented the PIE language.

It’s approaching consensus that it was Corded Ware, and not Yamnaya, who were PIE speakers”


Corded Ware was not PIE. It was Indo-Slavic, it is now proven by facts, by genetics, archeology, similarities in Slavic and Vedic languages, religions and cultures etc.

http://postimg.cc/rzK5Tzmt

PIE is still unknown. A lot of speculation. But we have to wait for the whole story and the evidence supporting that story.

Copper Axe said...

@Rob

Yes there are Afanasievo sites/cemeteries in Xinjiang, technically. Not within the Tarim or Dzungar Basins however but the southern end of the Altai range.

Here is an article featuring one such cemetery:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-020-01094-2

I think they also have found Afanasievo pottery at the Tongtian cave but dont quote me on that one, my Mandarin isn't all that.

Copper Axe said...

Are the U106 and P312 Single Grave people also "Indo-Slavic"??! Because they were as Corded Ware as it gets. What genetics and archaeology prove their Indo-Slavic character?

EastPole said...

@Copper Axe
“Are the U106 and P312 Single Grave people also "Indo-Slavic"?”


Could you link the article, I would like to learn more about their genetics and origin.
Generally in patrilocal societies the wife comes to the husband household and speaks the language of the household and so Corded Ware R1a households were Indo-Slavic. How R1b mixed with CWC I don’t know, maybe from Yamnaya or maybe from HG, what was their language then, I don’t know.

Simon_W said...

"During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This continuity drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry."
Makes absolute sense. This is in agreement with the other Etruscsn samples. Eastern Mediterranean admixture in Etruria is Roman Imperial age, not proto-Etruscan.

Simon_W said...

@Rob "however, there is some Anatolia admixture in pre-Roman age Italy . So we do have vectors of transmission, but perhaps it became genetically decoupled in Etruscans"

There is the Ardea outlier who is partly Levantine. And the Prenestini outlier who is South Italian-like. Any connection with the Etruscans? Nope.

Simon_W said...

I'm surprised you guys don't like Irish pagan metal. But to each his own.

MH_82 said...

@ Simon W


''There is the Ardea outlier who is partly Levantine. And the Prenestini outlier who is South Italian-like. Any connection with the Etruscans? Nope.''

Yeah I was skeptical myself until I saw Kloekhorst's recent talk/

Ric Hern said...

@ Andrzejewski

If PIE started developing when R1b, R1a and CHG mixed during the Mesolithic or even Earlier and different dialects of the resulting mix eventually experienced a dialect Levelling event to form PIE, then all those clans could have contributed to the formation.

weure said...

@Eastpole R1b 312 is Single Grave and R1b U106 is (proto) Germanic although in a Bell Beaker context still fare fetched. R1b U106 Oostwoud/ North Holland 1800 BC seems from the same line as the Capetingen/ Bourbons Royal House of France (Frankish).

Ric Hern said...

@ Andrzejewski

Think of how different Languages of the same Language family can become comparing eg. Dutch to Hindi. This in less than 5000 years of separation. Yes this is extremes however we do not know how many dialect Levelling events took place in the Don area before PIE eventually formed. Eg. One clan could have had the upper hand for 500 years, then another for 500 years etc. each time shifting dialects and adopting some new from the old until the basis of PIE eventually formed.

Matt said...

@ambron, as one thing on that topic; there seems to be some debate at the moment as to whether Baltic_BA like ancestry is a valid source for Slavic populations and Arza has clarified on new his blog the case that, if so, this requires a low HG source to counterbalance for modern populations. And everything Arza is saying is absolutely quite correct, within the Global 25 data.

But is reliant on that PCA, so to get some semi-independent verification via another PCA I ran some quick models with Davidski's old West Eurasia 9 PCA: https://imgur.com/a/aYn3vKz . This is an older PCA, but because fewer overlapping populations, think he could get more low SNPs ancients on, and because focused on West Eurasians should pack a lot of their variation in, even with fewer dimensions.

It gives some similar results, though there are some slight differences (the WEPCA prefers slightly more extreme East-West EEF sources than Global25, hence putting more Minoan like ancestry in Eastern Europe and more Spain Chalcolithic like ancestry in Western Europe). So that is some verification and I don't think it is *just* some quirk of Global 25 uniquely as far as PCAs go anyway.

I still worry about why the PCA results are seeming to be different from what qpAdm though, although I wouldn't say qpAdm is clearly superior or any such strong statement. The mention by Arza upthread of a new version of smartPCA with more hi-accuracy and a faster/new projection method (lsqproject+newshrink) is interesting (see https://github.com/DReichLab/EIG/blob/master/POPGEN/README and https://github.com/DReichLab/EIG/blob/master/POPGEN/lsqproject.pdf for how lsqproject works by "filling in" values missing SNPs in samples with high numbers of non-overlapping SNPs "by solving least squares equations"). It seems to me possible there could be some problem where if we're projecting ancients then some extreme ancients like Latvia_BA might still be getting overly compressed by shrinkage close to modern people under certain circumstances, and this causes some problems of overestimating their contribution. I could see the projection algorithm being really reliable in large scale dimensions (the large scale West Eurasian dimensions). Like it's 90% right. But I don't know if there might be problems getting it quite right in the much smaller dimensions, where things might get over/under-estimated.

Again have to say I think everything Arza is saying is quite correct within G25, but we are very reliant on one form of understanding population structure.

MH_82 said...

@ SimonW

''I'm surprised you guys don't like Irish pagan metal. But to each his own.'

i had a listen and I liked it. But then, i like the full deal when it comes to Metal. Pantera, Sepultura, White Zombie, NIN
(:

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ i had a listen and I liked it. But then, i like the full deal when it comes to Metal. Pantera, Sepultura, White Zombie, NIN
(:”

In the 80s and early 90s here in this country, “Steppe-descendants” listened to the British-invented/inspired metal genres before the “Niger-Congo”-originated rap and hip-hop took over.

I’m an old school; I like all those metal bands you mentioned :)

Ali said...

Hi David, what do you think about Q1b2a, particularly this subclade? https://yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ18/

Andrzejewski said...

@Ric Hern “ Think of how different Languages of the same Language family can become comparing eg. Dutch to Hindi. This in less than 5000 years of separation. Yes this is extremes however we do not know how many dialect Levelling events took place in the Don area before PIE eventually formed. Eg. One clan could have had the upper hand for 500 years, then another for 500 years etc. each time shifting dialects and adopting some new from the old until the basis of PIE eventually formed.”

Are we of the orthodoxy that Khvalynsk, Samara HG, Progress etc did NOT speak a para-pre-PIE (or anything resembling PIE or IE), but that Yamnaya, Sredny Stog and CWC did?

Andrzejewski said...

@Simon_W "During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans.”

It’s astonishing how science over the very last few years debunked the notion that non-IE speakers in Europe lacked Steppe ancestry: Sami, Finns, Estonians and Hungarians- all considered “Uralics” have over 1/2 of their DNA coming from the Steppe herders, while Basques, Etruscans and Ashkenazi Jews have a considerable or at least a “non-negligible” amount thereof (although in the case of the latter I suspect some Khazar admixture).

Andrzejewski said...

@East Pole “ Generally in patrilocal societies the wife comes to the husband household and speaks the language of the household and so Corded Ware R1a households were Indo-Slavic. How R1b mixed with CWC I don’t know, maybe from Yamnaya or maybe from HG, what was their language then, I don’t know.”

Not necessarily. How come Basques have the highest rate of R1b (92%) but still speak a farmer/forager pre-IE language?

Why do modern Semitic people have J1 and J2 CHG ydna but they don’t speak “Maykop”?

Examples abound.

Vinitharya said...

@Genos Historia

No, M458 is a descendant of Z283, like Z280 and Z284. Very bottlenecked, though, kind of like I1.

Andrzejewski said...

@Rob “ Anatolian obviuosly moved via the Balkans, there's little to debate there”

Given the highly divergent nature of the Anatolian branch, could they be offsprings of either Yamnaya Bulgaria or Yamnaya Hungary?
I read that WSH dna made encroachment into the Balkans as early as 4000BCE.

And if Armenian derive ultimately from Poltava or Catacomb, it could mean that Yamnaya is not a dead end, linguistically or genetically.

The Iron Age/BA European admixture into Caucasian pops came mainly through these 2 Yamnaya-scion culture, and I’m thinking off of a tangent here on a comment someone has made a few threads ago regarding the high CHG amount in NW Caucasus speakers - could it be that part of this CHG contribution could be attributed to the Steppe incursion?

Another fodder is whether the reasons that Anatolian and Armenian are so different from mainstream IE languages are because of an early split (Anatolian), a different origin (Yamnaya/Poltava/Catacomb vis-a-vis Corded), a heavy CHG + EEF substrate in Hittite and Armenian (Hatti, Kaskian, Hurro-Urartian, Maykop, You name it), or the possible lack of any European non-IE influence on its vocabulary such as Narva, GAC, Tripolye and so forth.

Leper said...

You sound like a guy who would enjoy Mgla.

Małgorzata said...

Nice picture. Sounds like you had a great time, despite the injury.

Unfortunately, most mountains are not in my kind of climate zone. Last time I spent the summer in Małopolska, the heat was almost killing me. Maybe I'm just too used to the nice North Sea climate by now.

We have quite a few Europeans here who don't live in Europe, right? Have you guys ever been in Europe and do you think about "going home" sometimes?
I'm not the kind of person who grows attached to a specific stretch of land, but Australia for example seems like another world entirely.
America isn't that bad and the gun laws are a big plus, but... still nope. Northern Europe is big enough for me, no need to venture beyond it.

Małgorzata said...

Regarding the Germanic homeland:

Even if the deep roots are, as weure suggests, in Unetice and after that in Sögel-Wohlde (and opinions seem to differ on that from what I see here), isn't the Nordic Bronze Age still the time and place where it finally formed and moved out again?
Isn't it comparable to Indo-European and Corded Ware? While the deep roots are obviously further east, they moved west towards central Europe and then expanded outwards again (Fatyanovo and so on).


And regarding the Slavic homeland:

So what is anyone's opinion on it? I see a lot of criticism for the Pripyat Marshes around here, but that usually comes from my fellow Poles. And in my experience, many Poles would like to be as autochthonous and "western" as possible, so unfortunately I can't exclude the possibility of bias.
So, what do you guys think? Considering the Krakauer Berg samples, I have a hard time imagining early Slavs west of the Vistula.

Małgorzata said...

@Simon_W:

It's not bad, but... it's not Summoning. Nothing beats Summoning in my opinion, not even Burzum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZeaTxVMCYc
And on top of the music being awesome, I'm quite happy with the Middle-earth setting.

Speaking of fantasy settings, am I the only one who really doesn't like the Witcher? Like most modern fantasy, it's awfully dirty, depressing and degenerate.
I'm speaking about the books by the way, I haven't watched the show and only played the first game.

Romulus said...

North African & Near Eastern non-Anatolian admixture in the Etruscans seems obviously Phoenician Admixture.

Simon Stevin said...

Why does David Reich think PIE originated south of the Caucasus Mountains in what is now Armenia? What’s the evidence for this? Is this just special pleading, so he can make concessions to the anti-Eastern European origin crowd?

Ric Hern said...

@ Andrzejewski

You are talking about an area roughly a 1000 kms by 1000 kms. Take this size and put it over some parts of Western Europe and see how many Languages and Dialects within those Languages fit into it.

What I was talking about was the clans who was living within the Lower to Middle Don area.

Davidski said...

@Simon Stevin

I think that Reich got a lot of bad advice about the PIE issue from a variety of people, including some close associates.

This bad advice matched the broad patterns that he initially saw in the ancient DNA that his lab was sequencing and voila.

By the way, don't underestimate the influence of garbage websites like Eupedia or Quiles' Indoeuropean.eu on science.

These fantasy sites are regularly read by scientists and must have had an impact.

Copper Axe said...

@Davidski

"I think that Reich got a lot of bad advice about the PIE issue from a variety of people, including some close associates"

I dont think the influence from MPI can be overstated, they are one of the main drivers when it comes to this nonsense. Jumping around proposed West Asian homelands like flees.

Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Iran, Armenia etc.

The consensus amongst IE linguistics was kind of always the steppes but MPI was pumping out linguistic articles in favor of the Anatolian hypothesis after 2010.


Its politics, can't let the herrevolk win or whatever.

Also that one video where Krause severely understates the amounts of ancestry "coming from Central Asia, from those cattle herders" amongst Germans (20% he said iirc) but was kind of correct regarding the other nationalities he mentioned is kind of interesting. Was that an innocent little mistake? Calling South Russia and Ukraine Central Asia and then also downplaying the amount of genetic contributions to Germans...

Or maybe my anti-German Dutch biases are clouding my mind ^_^

"By the way, don't underestimate the influence of garbage websites like Eupedia or Quiles' Indoeuropean.eu on science.

These fantasy sites are regularly read by scientists and must have had an impact."

Well maybe you calling their shit out will help. Although I often feel like it is very hard to convince people who already have made up their mind regarding carlitos.

If any mr. science guy are lurking here, tell your indo-european.eu browsing co-workers to stop being a doodoohead!

Arza said...

@ Rob

Nothing beyond what's in the supplement - P1(xM269). This single ancestral call on the M269 level may be just damage.

There are new tools that use the tree from Yfull, so there is a chance that they'll show something more.

Genos Historia said...

The thing is, is the "Armenian hypothesis" for Indo European origins was never a serious theory in archaeology. It was always PC Steppe vs Anatolia. No one talked about Mesopotamia, Caucasus, let alone Iran.

So, the theory David Reich has been pushing had no precedent. Yet suddenly it is a big deal because Yamnaya had ancestry from that general area. It is annoying.

But I do recall before, ancient DNA, in 2013, Eupedia linked Maykop to Yamnaya. Maciamo its head honcho was saying R1a M417 is indigeous, R1b M269 is Maykop. Yamnaya is Maykop R1b derived.

Was Manx Planx institute talking about Mesopatamia before ancient DNA say in 2013? Maybe they were. Seems they tried to accommodate every Indo European theory.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/10/dead-cat-bounce.html

Simon Stevin said...

@Davidski

True, Eupedia hasn’t completely updated their Y-DNA haplogroup pages in years, and they need a complete over hall, because some things on there are just not supported by any of the ancient DNA we have so far.

I think the J2 page has yet to mention the 6 Neolithic European samples we have of J2a, and the 5 or more we have from the Copper-Bronze Age. Macaimo also claims on the Q page, that the Q1a in Scandinavians, possibly came from Finnic speakers, despite there being almost no Q in European Finno-Ugric speakers (Nordic admixture aside), and Finno-Ugric speakers were late arrivals in Northern/Eastern Europe. Q1a-L56/L54 in fact predates them there, so it almost certainly came from the Proto-Indo-Europeans/WSHs, EHGs pops like Volsovo or the CCC, or from EHG admixed WHGs, like the SHGs, and the Narva/Kunda culture hunter gatherers.

Then there’s all that nonsense involving R1b coming up through the Caucasus, and onto the Steppe, despite the fact we have R1b samples in Europe, spanning from the Epipaleolithic, all the way through to the EBA, while there has not been a single R1b sample, pre-EMBA in West Asia, not even in Anatolia, Caucasia, Zagros, or the Iranian Plateau. I think there’s still a part on the R1b page were Macaimo claims that R1b-V88 may have arrived in Iberia with Neolithic farmers from North Africa..lol, insanity, it’s like it’s still 2006-2013 over there.

Well you’ll be glad to know our old pal Gaska still comments there too, tells you all you need to know really. It’s still fun to check in now and then, and see his insane ramblings, like how L51 has nothing to do with the Steppe, even though L51 just so happens to descend from the same upstream clade as Yamnaya’s Z2103, that being L23, and for some reason starting around the EBA, if not a little earlier, Steppe autosomal DNA just magically shows up everywhere in Europe, along with R1b-M269/L51, and Steppe mtDNA haplogroups. I guess to that nut case, L51 just fell out of the damn sky in the EBA, just remember though...it has nothing to do with the sudden appearance of Steppe autosomal DNA, DNA that just so happens to always accompany it...without fail, everywhere. That and no EEF or WHG samples have ever been found with M269, or L51. But hey, we can’t forget about that shit sample ATP3, the copper age Iberian that was probably dated wrong, that may have had M269, and even then, I believe that sample still picked up WSH autosomal DNA..so what’s his point?

Anthrogenica is better, but still you get the Afrocentric crowd that chimes in now and again from Egyptsearch, with claims that ANA, Iberomaurusians, Basal Eurasians, and Natufians, were really “Africans,” whatever they mean by that...SSAs? I guess the Japanese and Irish are the same because they are both “Eurasian.” Still not as bad as Gaska’s Basque nationalist chauvinism, but honestly...it’s not as funny.

jonilal said...

Genos Historia and others - I need some mtdna experts, of which I am not, to help me out with some origins interp. for my haplotype. Is it Caucasus? It is Neolithic or Mesolithic? I tested as mtdna J2a1a1, but precious little was said of ancient origins except "Alps" - and the last time the type was mentioned in journals, J2a1 was supposed to be one of the early colonizers of Europe post-final ice age. Is it a Steppe type? Anatolian? What was the migration route and when, ending up in Wales, Scotland, and Ireland? Any insight is appreciated.

George said...

Not a scientist, I'm a mailman, but it feels like I've spent the last year or so unlearning what I learned from Eupedia articles the previous year.

MH_82 said...

@ Malgorzata

“ see a lot of criticism for the Pripyat Marshes around here, but that usually comes from my fellow Poles. And in my experience, many Poles would like to be as autochthonous and "western" as possible,”

It seems to be limited to some polish scholars. Some indirect support is offered by western immobilst inclined scholars (theoreticians) who feel its uncouth to speak of Migrations. Some scholars supporting these have their own agendas- Eg Neo-Germanicists of the Pohl school , and Romanian protochthonists

That said, I don’t think slavs come from the Pripyat

Genos Historia said...

@jonilal,

No problem. J2a1a1 is Neolithic European farmer. But weirdly it is so far only found in Neolithic farmers from Spain though. It was frequent in Spain, 4%.

It is found throughout Europe today. It is even found in Russia & Finland. Probably because farmers from France migrated into Eastern Europe.

J2a1a1 also exists in the Levant and Egypt. There's an Egyptian mummy with J2a1a1. They probably got this from their Neolithic Anatolian ancestors.

J2a1a1 can also be found in Morocco. Which could be linked to their Neolithic Spanish ancestry.

Genos Historia said...

J2a1a1 is sister lineage to J2a2.

J2a2 is found in Natufian hunter gatherers. It is today restricted to Natufian rich areas: Arabia, Egypt, Levant, Ethiopia, etc.

So yeah the deep origins of J2a are in Southwest Asia.

Davidski said...

@Małgorzata

I was born in Poland, I lived in Germany, and I've been back to Europe, so I'm no stranger to the old continent.

Davidski said...

@Genos Historia

The Armenian hypothesis isn't a new hypothesis, it's just a really stupid one.

There was an article about it in Scientific American in 1990.

https://archive.org/details/GamkrelidzeIvanov1990IndoEuropean

It's based on pseudo-linguistics, no understanding of archeology, and no common sense when it comes to Eurasian genetics.

CrM said...

@Andrzejewski
"The Iron Age/BA European admixture into Caucasian pops came mainly through these 2 Yamnaya-scion culture, and I’m thinking off of a tangent here on a comment someone has made a few threads ago regarding the high CHG amount in NW Caucasus speakers - could it be that part of this CHG contribution could be attributed to the Steppe incursion? "

No. You should pay more attention to the models. I don't count the additional CHG from Steppe.
https://i.postimg.cc/76XXq3vd/caucasus.png

Davidski said...

@Arza

Do you have the binaries for the new Admixtools?

Arza said...

@ Davidski

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZKeMhxs3Bsvt1pJCmX5ruqJwXNhAJKL-/view?usp=sharing

Davidski said...

@Arza

Thanks!

@Rich S

What did you get banned for at AG? lol

EastPole said...

@Andrzejewski
“Not necessarily."

You are talking about exceptions not the rules. In patrilocal societies the language of the husband household is spoken. But it can happen that men marry women from other speech communities, their wives between themselves talk in their native language, children pick up the language of mothers. The language of fathers dies. This can happen in small and weak communities.
It didn’t happen in the case of Indo-Slavic R1a Corded Ware communities expanding east because they expanded into HG territories of forest and forest steppe, and also CWC had strong culture, religion etc. This is the reason why there are so many similarities in language, culture, religion between Slavic and Vedic. In the west of Poland the situation was different, there were strong cultures like BB and Neolithic. But we know that R1a and R1b didn’t mix because of differences: linguistic, cultural, religious. This is a reason for genetic barriers. No R1a in BB. So we can assume that R1a CWC were Indo-Slavic.

weure said...

Małgorzata said:
"Regarding the Germanic homeland:

Even if the deep roots are, as weure suggests, in Unetice and after that in Sögel-Wohlde (and opinions seem to differ on that from what I see here), isn't the Nordic Bronze Age still the time and place where it finally formed and moved out again?
Isn't it comparable to Indo-European and Corded Ware? While the deep roots are obviously further east, they moved west towards central Europe and then expanded outwards again (Fatyanovo and so on)."

I guess Single Grave culture is the key player. Of course there it's a giant lap between the arrival of Single Grave between North Dutch and Jutland and the 'real' Germanics. Nevertheless we can see them as founding population (2850 BC). The Single Grave/ Indo-Europeans had a departure point along the Middle-Elbe Saale region (Central-East Germany)(see Refshøjgård (2005), Egfjord (2021). They were the frontrunners. IMO their network stays important.

In the NW out of Single Grave growed the Bell Beaker culture. There is an assumable back flow from NW to Central-East Europe (as Davidski has stressed several times here).

The transformation to Bronze Age is another turning point. It's clear that this went from Central-East Europe to NW Europe. The Uneticians, with a stronghold along Middle-Elbe Saale, were the most advanced, civilized and dominant in North Central Europe. About 2000-1850 BC, the hight of the Unetice culture, they didn't only bring the bronze age culture to the NW they brought also their language with them that began to develop at that time (see Koch 2020) to a kind of pre-Germanic (but still close to Celtic, Baltic, Italic). According to Euler (2009) the makers the Nebra Sky Disk were the first pre- or proto Germanic speakers. And what laid besides the Nebra Sky Disk when they found this: two Sögel-Wohlde swords.... At that time in NW there was a total new phenomenon in the NW the Sögel-Wohlde warriors were buried in big monumental graves hitherto unknown there, but totally along the Unetice codes. Some woman in the NW (Luneberger heath for example) were dressed according to BA West-Hungarian 'mode'. The archeologist prof. dr. Louwe Kooijmans said (paraphrase): this must have been immigrants, no doubt.

[B]So yes I think these immigrants caused a kick start of the Nordic Bronze Age and can be considered as pre or proto Germanics.
[/B]

Matt said...

SimonW: I'm surprised you guys don't like Irish pagan metal. But to each his own.

Personally for me any Metal too much past about the '80s is uhh... Yeah, kinda losing that Blues influence it seems like, or just somehow becoming noisse... (Unpopular/Popular opinion: Death Metal/Black Metal just raw sucks man. This stuff seems kinda liked by guys who just want something fast to headbang to, or musicians who are way into the technicalities of how difficult it is to play - I'm neither and I don't get how it appeals to anyone who wants to relate to music emotionally.)

The good Metal stuff seems always about half a joke or not really serious, the English "originators" definitely were fully not totally serious most of the time. I guess the Pagan Metal thing also seems like another kind of like, too straight faced version. It's funny when Led Zep make a song about vikings that's kind a joke about British bands "invading" the US, or Dio's singing about wizards for imagery, then its a bit more serious but its a kind of a metaphor with no real idea that its actually real. But some of these guys seem like they're playing it straight when they're singing about druids in sacred groves, or the ancient pagan unity or something, or what have you, like they actually believed it happened... Generally neo-paganry, where you have these feminists imagining the ancient Wiccan feminist religion or you've got these guys who are coming up with this stuff about some ultra-macho Celtic druid-kings or whatever, basically just making stuff up entirely, is just funny or silly but seems they often take it seriously as something that actually existed through pseudo-historical Turbo-Pagan methods! Just reconstructing these completely fake religious ideas that never existed. Each to their own as you say though!

MH_82 said...

@ weure

As Im sure you know, the proto-Germanic expansion corresponds to the Jastorf phenomenon. So the quesiton is - which LBA groups are the immediate predecessors to jastorf

mzp1 said...

What about Marriage? When do you guys think that was invented? I dont think the concept of Nuclear Families is very ancient nor does it make sense for Steppe Herders to be practicing such a system. Seems more related to West Asian/Iranian Neolithic.

Germanic tribes were based on Nuclear Family structure whereas both Europe Neolithic and Steppe (Scythians) dont seem to be so.

So how did the organization of society into Nuclear Families spread into Europe and other places?

weure said...

@Rob, Jastorf iron age is also along the Elbe. But indeed there is a difference between EBA and iron age. About 1650 BC Unetice suddenly collapsed. The Nordic Bronze Age was after that on his hight. Logic that the later on Jastorf got an impuls from Nordic Bronze Age/ LBA. Unetice was at iron age already 1000 years passé....

https://postimg.cc/305Jz5kg

epoch said...

@weure

I recently found at least two terps (Marssum and Jelsum) in Oostergo and Westergo respectively showed continuous habitation. That means the hiatus wasn't complete.

https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/37458383/De_lege_vierde_eeuw.pdf

jonilal said...

@GenosHistoria

Thanks very much. So mtdna J2a1a1 has definitely not been found in a mesolithic context in Europe then. Easy to see the route from the Spanish neolithic up to Wales. Again - much appreciated!

Ric Hern said...

@ mzp1

I think it is very old. Before there was Governments, Police, Nurses etc. you had to rely on someone to stand by your side. The bigger the clan the more the security. And it helps if your spouse doesn't want to kill you...Heheheeh.

Ric Hern said...

@ mzp1

I think we should rather look at the average person rather than how the Elites behaved.

Ric Hern said...

@ mzp1

Maybe Indo-European religion could answer that question. Mostly a Father, Mother and Son involved...and sometimes a mistress on the side.

Arza said...

@ Matt

Our workflow and our methods have been proved to have higher predictive power than qpAdm/f-stats on numerous occasions. _If_ there's a problem, it's not on our side.

https://i.postimg.cc/05RL7w7Q/Chromo-Painter-VSqp-Adm.png

Genos Historia said...

@mzp1,

Your feminist mythology is getting unhinged. Lol. Man-hating Marja Gimbtus was wrong, get over it.

Let me see, you want to say nuclear family is a recent invention in order to say modern society shouldn't prioritize this value. I could get into the philosophy behind this argument but don't want to.


But to just answer the main part of your question, I don't see why the nuclear family wouldn't be the norm for both Kurgans and Neolithic farmers.

In ancient DNA
The Neolithic mass graves in Poland & Croatia, are made-up of Nuclear families. As is the Bronze age necropolis in Serbia. As are the Bell Beaker/EBA cemeteries in Germany.

Megalithic graves show second to third degree relatives. This could be polygamy. They share paternal ancestry (Y DNA). But what is a nuclear family in humans, but simply the presence of fathers raising kids alongside moms, unlike what animals do.

Copper Axe said...

@Epoch

There also is a terp around Ezinge in Groningen which shows continuous habitation throughout the empty century.

MH_82 said...

@ weure

Yep this chapter by Fokkens et al is a great overview of NBA, Elp, Unetice & their evolution to Jastorf

Davidski said...

@All

A new paper about the Proto-Uralic homeland and expansion.

https://researchportal.helsinki.fi/en/publications/drastic-demographic-events-triggered-the-uralic-spread

Copper Axe said...

What I find interesting is that there is very little Kra001 related ancestry present anywhere in the Altay-Sayan during the BA and EIA.

Its basically that sample and one of the later Andronovo outliers from Krasnoyarsk which have noteworthy amounts of such ancestry as far as I know.

I'm guessing its partially due to them not being native to the region, but also their population sizes. They were still foragers/fishers predominantly in the Pre-PU/PU stage supposedly and Proto-Samoyedic speakers in the first millenium b.c were as well.

I guess that also begs the question as to how populated the populations who ventured west would have been, and how fast the assimilation processes went, considering the amount of pastoralist populations from the Altai to the Urals.

If Finnic peoples have noise-level WSHG, then I cant imagine them having travelled westwards through the south siberian forest regions adjacent to the steppes. I think it would be more northernly but this is apparently verboten when it comes to Uralic because the story is that they only decided to check out the northern areas yesterday, even when we find shared material traditions along the polar circle and N-L1026 carrying samples in the 2nd millenium bc.

I also have a hard time imagining that there was some great swift replacement/conquest of peoples west and east of the Urals such as Fatyanovo, Abashevo, Tashkov, Krotov etc. by Uralic Seima-Turbino warriors or anything. I'd wager their expansions were way slower and gradual than the popular proposed takes scenarios I see on the web.

Matt said...

@arza, could you unpack what you're thinking that linked graphic is showing a bit? Are you saying the Chromopainter model of Baltic_BA, where they have only 37% steppe ancestry (Basque like level) is superior to the qpAdm model where they have 60%?

Davidski said...

@Copper Axe

It's an interesting question what happened to WSHG ancestry that it was diluted so significantly and even disappeared across it's entire range.

Was this a coincidence to some degree, and due to a couple of different factors, or was it basically the result of the Uralic expansions?

Copper Axe said...

@Davidski

Indo-Iranians from the southwest, Uralics from the northeast.

Perhaps a combination of their population sizes due to recent adaptations of pastoral lifestyles and an increasing lack of technological advantages over their northern neighbours who then kept pressing southwards?

Meanwhile their southern neighbours were getting more numerous and started riding horses in battle, and were also aggressively expanding through Siberia.

Kind of a tough spot to be in wouldn't you say?

It also might be that it took a while for them to get diminished from an actual population to a genetic component. The archaeological picture is not all that clear and we dont have much genetic data from the transitional period either.

Lets say there is a 2000 bc migration east to west and this brought Uralic languages and ancestry with it. How do we know if the replacement in West-Siberia was complete in 1800 bc, or in 1000 bc?

In the western Mongolia we see Siberian populations mixed with Indo-Iranians, and then also other WSHG/ESHG pastoralist populations so there definitely was a persistence of these kind of populations around the Altai-Sayan regions even with the amount of Indo-Iranians in the region.

I also wonder how Tocharians fit in this. I think it was Napolskich suggested a Tocharian presence in the STP (or Chernykh?), and the Chemurchek culture would be a great candidate for that given their location and connection/potential influence on the Altai metallurgical traditions, but we have no evidence that they were related to Tocharians because we have no confirmed Tocharian DNA.

Huck Finn said...

@ Copper and re: ”If Finnic peoples have noise-level WSHG, then I cant imagine them having travelled westwards through the south siberian forest regions adjacent to the steppes. I think it would be more northernly but this is apparently verboten when it comes to Uralic because the story is that they only decided to check out the northern areas yesterday, even when we find shared material traditions along the polar circle and N-L1026 carrying samples in the 2nd millenium bc.

I also have a hard time imagining that there was some great swift replacement/conquest of peoples west and east of the Urals such as Fatyanovo, Abashevo, Tashkov, Krotov etc. by Uralic Seima-Turbino warriors or anything. I'd wager their expansions were way slower and gradual than the popular proposed takes scenarios I see on the web.”

If it's more northernly then say related to paternal N you just have to explain fex N-Z1936 going downstream towards Finland through Volga area, in terms of SNP's. Or, waffle ceramics being present in most northern parts of Fennoscandia only and Textile Ceramics being present both in Volga area and in the eastern Baltic coast, including Finland. In my biased eyes the Arctic route looks like a parallel expansion, probably related to Non-Uralic speaking Ymyakhtakh. That being said, the initial Uralic expansion may have been and probably was as Siberian as Ymyakhtak in terms of genetics. It just expanded through more the southern river systems.

Also, if you are having hard times then just present the evidence that the expansion was slow. It's nothing more complicated than that.

Besides, this new paper seems to say, in essence, that Pre Seyma Turbino Pre Proto Uralic was located somewhere east of Yenisey and Proto Uralic, already as a dialectal but mutually intelligible continuum diverged in West Siberia, during the Indo Iranic contacts. Taking into account the fact that eastern slopes of Ural mountains are in western Siberia, I don't have a problem with this view.

EastPole said...

@Davidski
“A new paper about the Proto-Uralic homeland and expansion.”


“The ethnolinguistic composition of the middle Volga and southwestern Ural areas has changed: formerly Indo-European and probably Pre-Balto-Slavic- or Para-Baltic-speaking prior to the 4.2 ka event, it became durably Finno-Ugric-speaking after that (Supplement S3) and remained so until marginalized in the Russian colonial expansion.

Fatyanovo, Balanovo, Abashevo: Pre-Baltic and Para-Baltic-speaking post-Corded Ware IE cultures.

Para-Baltic is a sister to all of Baltic or Balto-Slavic”

https://i.postimg.cc/RCcgd8Wj/para-Balts.jpg

I was suggesting it earlier. Finns, Estonians, Mordvins look like Uralicized Para-Balts.

Davidski said...

@EastPole

It's extremely unlikely that Fatyanovo, Balanovo and Abashevo were Pre-Baltic and/or Para-Baltic-speaking, or that they're closely related to Finns, Estonians and Mordvins.

They're closely related to Sintashta and basically 100% Z93, so they're related to Indo-Iranians not Balto-Slavs or Finns.

Matt said...

I think that Heyd and others Uralic paper does have a testability as gives a clear genetic prediction; predicts that there will be a population discontinuity in the Volga River regions around 2200-2000BCE and that whatever population change we find then and there will be Uralic (and not any later change in the Iron Age and such).

("The simultaneous 4.2 ka event and the ST transcultural phenomenon, and the IndoIranian contact episode within their time frame, explain the Uralic spread and situate it in space and time."

"Uralic spread with ST trade along the rivers that were the main avenues of communication and transport."

"The non-pastoral, non-agricultural, sparsely distributed CU populations suffered less from the 4.2 ka event and were able to recover from it faster than the denser stockbreeding IE populations. As a result, early Uralic varieties replaced IE-speaking populations along the Volga and near the Urals."

"The Uralic spread took place rapidly and for the most part without substratal effects."
)

Per this theory, any later change won't be bringing Uralic.

Davidski said...

@Matt

Is the 2200-2000BCE date actually mentioned in the paper?

If it is, then the paper is outdated in more ways than one, because I'm not aware of any Uralic-specific DNA in that area, or even near the Urals, as early as that.

Matt said...

They propose that Uralic languages became established during 4.2kya event around Volga River before pastoralists could recover, and that's the whole basis of proposal, so can't see any other way to read it.

Davidski said...

Well, the paper claims that the 4.2kya event was the catalyst for language change.

But does it actually say when that change happened? Do the authors mean during the 4.2kya event, or some time afterwards?

Keep in mind that the Seima-Turbino phenomenon comes after the 4.2kya event, based on latest C14 dates.

Erik Andersson said...

From the paper:
"The most recent radiocarbon dates place ST between c. 4200 and 3900 BP,
and somewhat later west of the Urals along the Volga (Marchenko et al. 2017, Krause et al.
2019, Chernykh 2008)."

Matt said...

Paper seems to be suggesting that relatively sudden post3900BCE recovery of pastoralism in region precludes too much later than that, and that diversification of Uralic languages in Volga occured pre3900 BCE.

"In the model proposed here, early Uralic speech spread rapidly along the waterborne trade network north of the steppe, expanding as part of the same interregionalization as ST. Uralic speakers were the prospectors, miners, boatsmen, trade managers, procurers, and first settlers of trading posts at major river confluences; the Indo-Iranian-speaking Sintashta culture and its successors financed trade and prospecting and developed markets. Uralic-speaking trading post settlements became well entrenched and demographically strong along the trade routes before the pastoral steppe populations recovered from the drought, allowing Uralic speaking populations to dominate the forest-steppe and forest zones thereafter."

Timeline : 3900 BP and later: Rebound. With climate amelioration, agriculture recovers across the northern steppe periphery. Indo-Iranian languages come to be spoken across the entire Pontic-Caspian steppe and into the Kazakh steppe. The center of bronze production and trade shifts west and the ST complex comes to an end, perhaps because the new opportunities presented by recolonization of lands abandoned during the drought made warfare and displays of power less necessary. Bronze artifacts exported to eastern Europe and Scandinavia now originate chiefly along the western Urals and near the Volga bend.

The ethnolinguistic composition of the middle Volga and southwestern Ural areas has changed: formerly Indo-European and probably Pre-Balto-Slavic- or Para-Baltic-speaking prior to the 4.2 ka event, it became durably Finno-Ugric-speaking after that (Supplement S3) and remained so until marginalized in the Russian colonial expansion.


When does adna suggest the "rebound" on Sintashta spread?

Davidski said...

@Matt

When does adna suggest the "rebound" on Sintashta spread?

Not sure what you're asking here, but anyway, I think there's zero chance for the diversification of Uralic languages on the Volga pre-3,900 BC.

MH_82 said...

As I’ve said before, I think FU spread a little bit later. I would link the 4.2 ky event to the final expansion of Andronovo related groups into Central & inner Asia

Copper Axe said...

Archaeologically the shift in material cultures in the eurasian forest zone is dated after 2200-2000 bc as well.

The thing with the 4.2 kiloyear event is that its effects on the forest zone was severely less than in the southern steppes. Wasn't good or anything, quite violent but the end result was a seemingly large population because post 2000 bc the entire eurasian steppes start to get flooded with all sorts of Indo-Iranian related peoples.

It is also around the time that pastoralism spread through Siberia amongst the native peoples and they were around for a couple centuries after the 4.2 kiloyear event.

With that in mind, I doubt there suddenly was a massive advantage that forager populations would've gained over pastoralist ones.

@Davidski

If you are at license to share some info, What timeframe is the earliest evidence you've seen around the Urals?

Matt said...

I'm not really committed to "This paper is right" (or even especially interested in it), just relating what it is they're saying and how it seems to translate to adna. It may wrong. It would be odd if they wrote a paper about how 4.2 - 3.9 was a crucial climate window in giving hunting and fishing populations a chance to get established on Volga, then we're actually like "On we meant it happened 1000BCE" (or some other much later date).

Ric Hern said...

Seems to me like an explosion of Andronova related tribes in almost all directions...

Davidski said...

@Copper Axe

Iron Age.

MH_82 said...

Funnily enough 1000 bce seems closer to the mark. This is when the Sintashta-led Ural-Forest confederation dissolved (refer to Sintashta outliers). The Sintashta settlements were abandoned, final push into south asia, on the one hand; counter-current expansion of east-Siberian tribes on the other

Arza said...

@ Matt

I wouldn't say that it's superior, but at least it didn't overshoot as badly, as qpAdm.

qpAdm got the Yamnaya-EEF ratio right (and the same as G25!) while ChromoPainter got a little bit more realistic (Yamnaya+EEF)/WHG ratio (at least it hit the HG cline).

If you took Yamnaya-EEF ratio from qpAdm and (Yamnaya+EEF)/WHG ratio from ChromoPainter, final result would end up close to what G25 shows.

In other words G25 is closest to an average of these tree methods and thus it's the least biased one. Not so bad for an amateur tool, is it?

Copper Axe said...

@Davidski

Thank you! Wow. Kinda strange considering we have Uralic-like ancestry in bronze age fennoscandia and then also some uralic ancestry in the Mezhovskaya samples (probably not Uralic speaking I think).

Is it iron age because these are just the earliest cases of such ancestry that you've seen around the Urals, or have you also seen bronze age samples from the relevant regions which then lacked Uralic-specific ancestry.

Intriguing...

Davidski said...

As far as I know, kra001 ancestry makes an impact there in the Iron Age. But there might be earlier sporadic instances of it around the Urals and the Volga.

Matt said...

@Arza, aha. Yeah, ok, I'm not totally convinced that being closer to average of Chromopainter+qpAdm results indicates a closer true fit/less bias but CP is certainly an alternate method to weigh up against qpAdm results, and it's certainly interesting that CP is finding a pattern of strong HG donation, and thanks for explaining your logic. Though hard to put CP results into context since these methods are pretty computationally intensive to run outside academia (?) and thin on the ground in published material (even recent paper by Saag on Fatyanovo does not use CP for 3-way models, just 2-way). Questions for me as to whether CP generally does this and what the results would be across a comparable cross LNBA European panel...

Copper Axe said...

Does this suggest that I should starting descriptions such as "this culture was formed on a Volosovo basis with cultural/economic influences from Abashevo, Srubnaya, Andronovo etc." (Such as the Prikazan culture) serious when dealing with bronze age material cultures in the cis-Urals? 🤔

Copper Axe said...

"As far as I know, kra001 ancestry makes an impact there in the Iron Age."

Also the wants-to-be-EHG crowd is going to have a field day with this too I suppose...

mzp1 said...

Well this is an open thread so...

My analysis is that humanity is moving out of a historical cycle that was dominated by Patriarchy for a long time. Lets say by Patriarchy I just mean Monogamous Nuclear Families, for the sake of the argument.

You basically have a society that is run top-down from the King to the Free Man to the Free Mans Wife. The King is to the Free Man as the Free Man is to his Wife. First Men are subordinated, then they subordinate Women. This is the foundation of all modern Nation States.

This kind of system (Patriarchy) essentially sacrifices freedom and quality for speed and quantity. Monogamy produces more children than Polygamy/Matriarchy and the King needs men for his army and economy.

I think its Patriarchy that really explains the expansion of BA Steppe Cultures vs say WSHG (Botai). Older cultures like Botai and Samara look more like tribal communal societies whereas we see more Nuclear Family type settlements in later post-BA Steppe related communities, although it is difficult to say for actual Steppe Nomads.

Nuclear family settlements allow your culture to expand into a greater area compared to communal settlements.

But early IE was likely not based on Nuclear Families, if we believe PIE was a Nomadic system, it doesnt make sense for Nomads to follow the Nuclear family system. If BA Steppe Nomads had a marriage based system, it likely originated from Iran.

'Peripheral' (older?) IE cultures do seem to have a greater regard for female freedom and autonomy than the more well-known branches. In the Rigvedic Indra-Vrtra myth, Danu appears as Virtras mother who takes up her sons fight after Indra defeats him. The Vedic Aryans make Danu the mother of Vrtra but in Celtic myth Danu is the mother of ancient Celtic tribes (Tuathe de Danaan).

Greater prominence and autonomy for females is seen in these ancient IE cultures that seem to span Eurasia in an arc from Central Asia to Northern Europe. There are also female warriors in Yamnaya burials and also the myth of the Amazons, who are related to the Scythians. However, female autonomy and prominence disappears in time likely due to greater influence from West Asia.

The pre-eminent IE diety, Zeus Pater, means Light Father. The imagery is one of widespread daylight coming down from heaven. The Light is a metaphor for the wisdom and protection provided by the fathers of the tribe. When mentioning fathers and sons, the Vedic Aryans more often use the plural forms rather than singular, "may OUR fatherS ascend to heaven", "may WE have heroic SonS"

"What time our wives draw near to us, may he, left-handed Tvastar, give us hero sons."

Here the wives are said to draw near to the husbands, coming near of their own accord.

I think marriage was a new idea for the Vedic Aryans, it is rarely mentioned in the Rigveda, and only in book 10 (a late book which is already very different from the others) do we find an actual marriage hymn. I think again, West Asian influence.

I think the concept of Fatherhood in IE, like Zeus Pater, cannot be reduced to Nuclear Families. The benefit of Fatherhood cannot be limited to just biological children, but I think all the men are fathers to all the children.

weure said...

@Rob thanks for the Fokkens paper, fascinating stuff! @Epoch traditional is more eastwards less emptiness in the North (so Westergo most, East Frisia the least). It's interesting to see, as Larmuseau (2019) has shown, that in modern Westergo there is a R1b P312 dip....

Andrzejewski said...

@Copper Axe “
Does this suggest that I should starting descriptions such as "this culture was formed on a Volosovo basis with cultural/economic influences from Abashevo, Srubnaya, Andronovo etc." (Such as the Prikazan culture) serious when dealing with bronze age material cultures in the cis-Urals? ”

I thought that Volosovo were driven away by Fatyanovo, if not outright driven to extinction.

Seems like all EHG cultures like Combed Ceramic Culture met the same fate as the WSHG ones.

Anthony Hanken said...

@Davidski

Nice photo, glad you made it out with your foot. Lately I've been having run ins with a bear, twice now on my drive to work in the morning.

Anyways, I read the paper and a few points regarding aDNA...
No human remains have been found in any Seima-Turbino site west of the Urals. If Nganasan-like ancestry arrived with S-T, we can't expect aDNA to directly substantiate it.

If you are aware of samples from the MBA-LBA in the forest-zone of European Russia, with no Nganasan-like influence, that certainly would change things. Otherwise, this paper is in line with previously established models. If correct, some Nganasan-like should be found in samples from the Textile/Netted ware, Chirkovo and Kazan cultures.

MH_82 said...

the S-T link is a sexy idea. In fact, it's nothing new. Those of us who've been around for a while were talking about it on Dieneke's blog. But it doesn't mean it entirely accurate.

I wonder if the pattern which David is hinting suggests that kra001 related ancestry moved via a very northern trajectory, then permeated south toward the southern forest & forest-steppe zones

Genos Historia said...

@mzp1,

You speak of the nuclear family as some complex government system that got implanted in 1548 or something.

It is a basic, primal thing that is certainly ancient in human evolution.

Two people create a baby. Is it natural to then conclude, they have responsibility for taking care of the baby. It is also understandable, considering how humans are in general, those two people will be married and have multiple babies together.

And whoever said a nuclear family is inherently patriarchal?

The reason why leftists don't like the nuclear family, is because they don't like private property. They want everything, including children, to be owned by the collective state. They are collectivist who hate any kind of individual identity, including family identity. It is quite evil.

Genos Historia said...

@Mzp1,

eg, collectivism.

Why do you think prehistory was collectivist, if so few recorded human societies are like this?

Marxists in archaeology came up with this idea of a collectivist past. I consider many archaeologists as marxists with shovels. Considering how willing Marxists are to lie for the sake of political gain, I don't take their view of human society seriously. Despite how mainstream one form of it or another is in archaeology.

I can't imagine, collectivism ever being the norm for humanity at any time.

There's a ying and yang in human nature. In one sense we are collectivists. In another sense we have self ambition. But Marxism, collectivism is such an extreme ying that it would be rare for humans in history to live by it.

To put it in an ancient context. I think humans are more prone to gain land for themselves and their family, to acquire precious metals and ornaments for themselves and their family, than to share it with a collective.

To talk about Patriarchy, to me it originates in a world in which men are the ones who did those things. Then afterwards they got married. Why should they collectively share, what is rightfully theirs, with their wife?

The idea behind Marxism, is the person with self-interest who owns something for themselves, has something which other people deserve. It is this idea, as long as humans act out of their own self-interest, other people will not get what they want.

Is this really true? The level of denial of self in marxism/collectivism is too passive.

Ok, so the idea of patriarchy is men have something women should also have. They should have the same stuff. But why should this be? If men rightfully earn it, the assumption should be they deserve it. And how much do men have that women don't have, really?

I question, how much self-interest/ownership really prevents other people having what they want. There is a such thing as choice. I question definitions of things like Patriarchy and any -archy. I know Marxists intentionally exaggerate how much stuff people are denied in them.

Ric Hern said...

I think the problem we have today is the idea that Patriarchal equals Abuse. This is not the case in the majority of households. So again we see minority ideas being inflated to a disastrous scale...

Carlos Aramayo said...

Did anyone of you see this?

"The largest-ever study of almost 2,000 DNA samples carried out by researchers at Pompeu Fabra university (UPF) in Barcelona has confirmed the “genetic singularity” of the Basques in Europe. The investigation, however, found that this difference only began to emerge 2,500 years ago in the Iron Age. “Our analyses confirm that Basques were influenced by the major migration waves in Europe until the Iron Age, in a similar pattern as their surrounding populations,” the authors explain in the study published in the journal Current Biology."

https://tinyurl.com/y2c9bjpk

Davidski said...

@Carlos Aramayo

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/02/migration-of-bell-beakersbut-not-from.html

Garvan said...

The Cambodian rural people are still essentially matriarchal in that the husband goes to live in his bride’s house, at least for the first 3 years or so. I think there is a different technical term for this, but rural Cambodia is not a patriarchal society. This has the advantage that the man can go to war (or participate in forced irrigation projects, building economically useless temples etc.) while his family is secure in the extended family of his wife’s parents and relatives. It worked for the Angkor empire, and still worked up to the recent conflicts which only ended 30 years ago. In modern society, it is being eroded by the need to move to cities for employment, (wife following husband) and under the influence of Chinese intermarriages – which might be about 30% in cities.

Does a patriarchal society favor mobility?

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