tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post1222569368059708872..comments2024-03-29T00:55:02.581-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Lots of ancient mtDNA from IberiaDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-45904236797009037562017-02-12T12:32:21.972-08:002017-02-12T12:32:21.972-08:00OM
"Exogenous polulations dont just arrive a...OM<br /><br />"Exogenous polulations dont just arrive and share context with others. That is the weak part of all those theories of riding man from the steppe or whatever."<br /><br />Right - a situation like that (if it was correct) would imply artisans or traders rather than invaders.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-32563586466858940362017-02-12T03:11:47.494-08:002017-02-12T03:11:47.494-08:00@grey.
Could be. However against it and so many ot...@grey.<br />Could be. However against it and so many other, is the fact that that samples like Atp3 or U5a are found in a context of familiarity or ingroup with very non eastern or north european populations. That is the draw back. Exogenous polulations dont just arrive and share context with others. That is the weak part of all those theories of riding man from the steppe or whatever.Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2053556328050263092017-02-11T12:46:09.977-08:002017-02-11T12:46:09.977-08:00according to wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...according to wiki<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith#European_megaliths<br /><br />megalith construction reached scandinavia c. 3400bcGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26049676852154791732017-02-11T12:33:13.541-08:002017-02-11T12:33:13.541-08:00OM
"any opinions on how/who introduce U5a in...OM<br /><br />"any opinions on how/who introduce U5a into Portugal in 3600BC?"<br /><br />the Atlantic megalith culture centered in southern Portugal is overlooked imo - early farming as similar latitude for the neolithic package with a coastal settlement expansion up the Atlantic coast to the Baltic (for amber i assume)<br /><br />my pet theory was a steppe hare and tortoise scenario Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-73643933696821851652017-02-11T08:55:41.695-08:002017-02-11T08:55:41.695-08:00Same thing as above including Maros, Vatya and Nor...Same thing as above including Maros, Vatya and Nordic_LBA: Table - http://i.imgur.com/JXP2Uta.png, Cluster - http://i.imgur.com/YWbWMTi.png, PCA - http://i.imgur.com/WjsZoRZ.pngMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-31667515913532868052017-02-11T08:15:11.036-08:002017-02-11T08:15:11.036-08:00@ Rob, why model with Barcin rather than Iberia_EN...@ Rob, why model with Barcin rather than Iberia_EN, Iberia_Chal or Iberia_MN? Unless you did and Barcin was preferred.<br /><br />(I'm not still sure Globe10 has enough space for precision between lots of closely related HG and Early Neolithic populations though. Its dimensions seem to give you the main Neolithic contrast and the intra contrasts between East and West variants, then within CHGMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9345309199236338592017-02-11T07:16:35.056-08:002017-02-11T07:16:35.056-08:00Basically, Epipaleolithic Central Anatolians with ...Basically, Epipaleolithic Central Anatolians with some admix from the Neolithic Levant.<br /><br />Boncuklu_EN + Levant_N > Barcin_N f3 -0.005525 Z -2.62<br /><br />See here...<br /><br />http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2016/08/pca-analysis-neolithic-central.html<br /><br />They have some minor CHG-like stuff as well.<br /><br />http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2016/02/Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7908128275476655302017-02-11T06:55:55.628-08:002017-02-11T06:55:55.628-08:00@davidski and rob.
How would you model Barcin?@davidski and rob. <br />How would you model Barcin?Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23942571976690688032017-02-11T06:28:52.412-08:002017-02-11T06:28:52.412-08:00Fair enough. Although that doesn't usually hap...Fair enough. Although that doesn't usually happen, and Yamnaya was included there. It just did not show, but it obviously does in CWC / Latvia LN. <br />Interestingly, IIR 2200 BC seems to have been a time when colonies appear to be established in south Iberia (El Agar, etc).Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-66938876547651092462017-02-11T06:06:31.896-08:002017-02-11T06:06:31.896-08:00Most of the CHG is probably being eaten up by Barc...Most of the CHG is probably being eaten up by Barcin Neolithic.<br /><br />I'd model ATP9 as LBK_EN, Western_HG and Yamnaya_Samara.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42695890954968582942017-02-11T06:05:11.429-08:002017-02-11T06:05:11.429-08:00@ Alberto
If ATP is the earliest individual to da...@ Alberto<br /><br />If ATP is the earliest individual to date with steppe ancestry, in light of more recent samples was interesting. <br /><br />Iberia_BA:ATP9 <br />Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 34.65 %<br />Remedello_BA:RISE489 23.80 %<br />Ukraine_N1:StPet12 29.20 %<br />CHG 3.7 %<br /><br />As if an EHG -admixed Balkan group moving through Copper Age Italy. Basically no CHG, which is curious. Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-91563572804427192752017-02-11T02:24:53.953-08:002017-02-11T02:24:53.953-08:00@Samuel
About U5a. It arrived to portugal from som...@Samuel<br />About U5a. It arrived to portugal from somewhere. Strontium always makes those samples as Roaming people.<br />However this paper makes a mistake on bundling all samples from 4500bc to 3000 as MLN or whatever. Because 4th millennia saw the arrival o lots of people to Iberia and they should have had that in mind and not bundle all samples.<br /><br />Regarding those We are talking Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34827126022150744162017-02-11T02:07:00.153-08:002017-02-11T02:07:00.153-08:00@Alberto
What this paper is postulating, as roth p...@Alberto<br />What this paper is postulating, as roth paper also on mtdna or J Desideri in nmdental traits since those are a good proxy for genetics, is that no such back flow into iberia never occurred. So dna is good when confirms our bias but to ignore if contradictory to those believes?Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68207884259308750862017-02-11T01:42:26.867-08:002017-02-11T01:42:26.867-08:00Ancient and Modern European mHG frequencies.
http...Ancient and Modern European mHG frequencies.<br /><br />https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sUEn8VzWv-48bCXQHaOSrFqLmdaewuc4jiiBipNtjls/edit#gid=2051444765<br /><br />I won't reveal too much but there are obvious trends. Neolithic mtDNA and genomes from Eastern Europe or just outside of Eastern Germany, Hungary, and Spain are needed.Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39173298017481610772017-02-11T01:33:49.665-08:002017-02-11T01:33:49.665-08:00ATP9, which is called Iberia_BA in David's PCA...ATP9, which is called Iberia_BA in David's PCA plots, does have a slight autosomal steppe shift, but less than modern Basques. The sample is dated to 1750-1618 calBC, the end of the early Bronze Age IIRC.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80296572105067476282017-02-11T01:30:43.497-08:002017-02-11T01:30:43.497-08:00In Iberia I would expect that the early BB samples...In Iberia I would expect that the <em>early</em> BB samples might be MN/ChL and no R1b. That would be 2700-2400 BC. But from 2400, and specially 2200 BC, we're talking about full BB package, with the same single burials and grave goods.<br /><br />So it would be surprising if those full BB samples are MN/ChL. Was it just a cultural transmission without any migration? Or was the transmission Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49170589255400736182017-02-11T01:12:33.287-08:002017-02-11T01:12:33.287-08:00@ Samuel Andrews
"Samuel Andrews said... @Cap...@ Samuel Andrews<br />"Samuel Andrews said... @Capra, David is right that W is sort of frequent in Steppe samples so far. But it also existed in different subclades in Neolithic Germany and Hungary (but not Spain)". <br /><br />Of course mt hg. W was born around India or Southern Asia, but there are samples old in Europe. Marco Grassi tested a friend of his in Eastern Liguria through Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7429013154548083922017-02-11T01:05:55.479-08:002017-02-11T01:05:55.479-08:00@ Aram
"I am really confused by the mtdna H ...@ Aram<br /><br />"I am really confused by the mtdna H in pre Neolithic Iberia. So Iberians HGs had H while all other Europe non?"<br /><br />I, and some friends, am saying that mt hg. H was born in Europe and not in Middle East, and I lasted three years in finding the parents of an American adopted through 23andMe, Barbara Ann Lewis, because she has the most varied hg. H, and she Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-91346936926258731992017-02-11T01:00:38.235-08:002017-02-11T01:00:38.235-08:00@ Chad Rohlfsen
"OM, You had better hold on....@ Chad Rohlfsen<br /><br />"OM, You had better hold on. You, Maju, and Gioiello"<br /><br />I thank you for your attention and I have to read the paper yet, but I'd be glad understanding in what I was wrong, except that your friend Reich (if he is a friend of yours) showed you the 1000 samples tested so far and hidden in his lab.Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19418445926426303432017-02-11T00:31:47.295-08:002017-02-11T00:31:47.295-08:00There is some H in Mesolithic Europe, like in Kare...There is some H in Mesolithic Europe, like in Karelia. So there might be some in Iberia. But most of the Mesolithic mtDNA lineages in Iberia are likely to turn out U5b in surveys based on reliable methods and samples.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22631191889904293202017-02-11T00:18:06.091-08:002017-02-11T00:18:06.091-08:00I am really confused by the mtdna H in pre Neolith...I am really confused by the mtdna H in pre Neolithic Iberia. So Iberians HGs had H while all other Europe non?Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-63685906520087655372017-02-11T00:07:13.121-08:002017-02-11T00:07:13.121-08:00My wild ass guess: Bell Beakers even in Iberia wil...My wild ass guess: Bell Beakers even in Iberia will have some "steppe" (ie mammoth steppe ANE) ancestry, but Yamnaya and CWC will be a poor fit for it.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-62588772253672423562017-02-10T20:08:48.210-08:002017-02-10T20:08:48.210-08:00@Capra,
David is right that W is sort of frequent...@Capra,<br /><br />David is right that W is sort of frequent in Steppe samples so far. But it also existed in different subclades in Neolithic Germany and Hungary(but not Spain). Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69990651658582596202017-02-10T18:13:02.885-08:002017-02-10T18:13:02.885-08:00Where's the W from? I missed that one.Where's the W from? I missed that one.capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-17596707029718152212017-02-10T17:53:35.920-08:002017-02-10T17:53:35.920-08:00U5a today peaks in Baltic, Russia, Western Siberia...U5a today peaks in Baltic, Russia, Western Siberia. U5b today peaks in Iberia, Northern Europe. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.com