tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post1460974090759262202..comments2024-03-28T14:29:43.280-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Ancient genomes from Iron Age, Roman and Anglo-Saxon Britain (Martiniano et al. & Schiffels et al. 2016)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger110125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19680437546900073722016-02-07T07:14:28.787-08:002016-02-07T07:14:28.787-08:00I guess around 38% Germanic admixture, with a wide...I guess around 38% Germanic admixture, with a wide range 25 to 50% should also be in the ballpark for Southwestern Germans / northern Swiss. Hopefully we'll soon see some western Hallstatt or La Tène DNA.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34527598183693625182016-02-02T02:23:21.466-08:002016-02-02T02:23:21.466-08:00'2-3 of the Roman samples appear more eastern ...<i>'2-3 of the Roman samples appear more eastern than the Anglo-Saxon'</i><br />Why this wouldn't be a more general trend among the Roman period natives of this geographic region? There is no need to jump to conclusions without knowing the actual age of the suspected Baltic admixtures in Britain. Don't forget the samples turned out quite native in the study, the evidence so far Rokushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13883125231922541439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21062175581465474232016-01-23T08:35:57.546-08:002016-01-23T08:35:57.546-08:00@ Alexandros
"In the PCA plot (fig. 1a) this...@ Alexandros<br /><br />"In the PCA plot (fig. 1a) this person sits nicely in a cluster comprising of modern Jordanians and Palestinians"<br /><br />All of the PCAs are affected by projection bias. It's not always obvious, but we can assume it's there. If you look at the global PCA, it's clearer, because all of the British samples (excluding the ME outlier) cluster together,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9034579210109624422016-01-22T23:55:54.268-08:002016-01-22T23:55:54.268-08:00@ Frank
"There is widespread agreement that...@ Frank <br /><br />"There is widespread agreement that this situation reflects an early, possibly peaceful settlement of Saxons in Wessex, followed by the conquest by an ethnically mixed warband whose leaders and their descendants had British-sounding names (Cerdic, Cynric, Cædwalla) even though they were later called‘West Saxons’."<br /><br /><br />I think many 5th century "Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-5772096912824292292016-01-22T23:27:33.023-08:002016-01-22T23:27:33.023-08:00Now the "apartheid" stuff: Harke conside...Now the "apartheid" stuff: Harke considers it as one of several possible scenarios, within the context of regionally different patterns of AS-ization. He explcitely distinguishes three scenarios, noting that additional ones may well have occured, namely:<br /><br />- "Kin-group model": AS, having arrived with females, and Britons living together in the same unit, also sharing FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-58540197133770123872016-01-22T23:09:20.597-08:002016-01-22T23:09:20.597-08:00Maybe most have figured it out by now, but just to...Maybe most have figured it out by now, but just to clarify following some initial posts regarding 'mystery' surrounding the closest modern population to the outlier Roman 'Briton' (3DRIF-26).. Figures 1a+b from the original paper pretty much clarify the picture. In the PCA plot (fig. 1a) this person sits nicely in a cluster comprising of modern Jordanians and Palestinians. In the Alexandroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367338366334463624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6844185543020022152016-01-22T21:12:26.656-08:002016-01-22T21:12:26.656-08:00@rk: I am wondering if we both have been reading t...@rk: I am wondering if we both have been reading the same paper. This is what I will be referring to, but you may actually have had other publications in mind:<br />http://www.academia.edu/1178275/Anglo-Saxon_immigration_and_ethnogenesis._Medieval_Archaeology_55_2011._1-28<br /><br />First of all, the a/m paper is neither putting forward explicit demographic models (with or without considering FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79693831895315246612016-01-22T12:46:59.401-08:002016-01-22T12:46:59.401-08:00ryu
"On a purely physical basis this is simp...ryu<br /><br />"On a purely physical basis this is simply the most parsimonious explanation."<br /><br />If there were no casualties in the fighting.<br /><br />What the written records say is losses were made up by new contingents from the continent.<br /><br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80352916447383683122016-01-22T12:08:22.790-08:002016-01-22T12:08:22.790-08:00@Kristiina
Thank your for your elaborate assessme...@Kristiina<br /><br />Thank your for your elaborate assessment. Let me clarify, for people who may have questions about what exactly I am talking about, that by "Aryan" I meant Indo-Iranian, and not just their Indo-Aryan branch, so I was asking for the oldest Indo-Iranian layer in the Turkic languages, whether it is from undifferentiated Indo-Iranian or its Iranic branch (the Indo-AryanOnur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-57684538393861471762016-01-22T12:07:20.453-08:002016-01-22T12:07:20.453-08:00Davidski, could you do a global PCA including thes...Davidski, could you do a global PCA including these samples? The global PCA in the paper seems to suffer from projection bias. The ancient Middle Eastern individual seems to be among the least SSA-shifted Middle Easterners in the paper's analysis, and in a PCA without projection bias may be more clearly *the* least SSA-shifted ME individual. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-74980951468870482572016-01-22T02:16:58.333-08:002016-01-22T02:16:58.333-08:00More K15 results for 3DRIF-26, this time the nMont...More K15 results for 3DRIF-26, this time the nMonte oracle by Huijbregts<br /><br />fitted 0.183205<br />[1] "distance% = 2.142 %"<br />[1] "percentage ancestors by pop:"<br /><br />Yemenite_Jewish: 42.80<br />Samaritan: 32.00<br />Sardinian: 6.80<br />Lebanese_Christian: 6.40<br />Saudi: 6.00<br />Ethiopian_Tigray: 4.60<br />Abhkasian: 1.05<br />Ethiopian_Amhara: 0.35Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16501142691999962485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15105643066630390182016-01-21T22:55:19.641-08:002016-01-21T22:55:19.641-08:00@ FrankN
Frank, the reproductive advantage needed ...@ FrankN<br />Frank, the reproductive advantage needed to get the ratio of A-S ancestry up from 5% to 50% in the 300 years where legal differences exist between saxons and natives, is something like 1.2. I.e. persons of A.S ancestry have 1.2 children for 1 child from people with native ancestry. I think you can agree that this is indeed well within the range of possibility, in fact considering Ryukendo Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11588546655427153692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-5850000345634220772016-01-21T22:15:20.360-08:002016-01-21T22:15:20.360-08:00@ FrankN
Frank, Harke did of course take into acc...@ FrankN<br /><br />Frank, Harke did of course take into account towns in his calculations; the figure is still ~250 000 of people with immigrant background, 1:4 migrant vs native background, 2 centuries after the initial migration. Those of migrant background are indeed concentrated along the coast.<br /><br />Do you know what an immigration rate of 0.6% means? An immigration rate of 0.6%-1.0% Ryukendo Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11588546655427153692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54621963657405669222016-01-21T20:29:47.478-08:002016-01-21T20:29:47.478-08:00@ Rom
That's very interesting.
Have they cat...@ Rom<br /><br />That's very interesting. <br />Have they catered for sex-biased burial traditions ? Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72386310846847909592016-01-21T19:33:58.212-08:002016-01-21T19:33:58.212-08:00@Rob
In the Bell Beaker period men outnumber wome...@Rob<br /><br />In the Bell Beaker period men outnumber women, I've read this on Bell Beaker Blogger's blog a couple times, he's the kind of guy to be right. In the Neolithic women greatly outnumber men, one study found something like 7 women for every 1 man in a Neolithic grave site and noted the strange ratio in the study. Other Neolithic studies have also found more women than men Romulus the I2a L233+ Proto Balto-Slav, layer of Corded Ware Womenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10022650074050864850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76084059667666014122016-01-21T17:33:11.114-08:002016-01-21T17:33:11.114-08:00Just an example of an empty meeting place: horse f...Just an example of an empty meeting place: horse fairs, which might suit the steppic nature of the intruders<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballinasloe_Horse_Fair<br /><br />"Ballinasloe historically served as a meeting point, or hosting area, for clansmen from local tribes. Indeed its name derives from Béal Átha na Sluaıghe, the Irish for "Ford-mouth of the Hostings".&Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15369385197497845992016-01-21T17:04:05.450-08:002016-01-21T17:04:05.450-08:00Maybe Frank can shed more like from the western en...Maybe Frank can shed more like from the western end of the north European plain Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89147502774569504022016-01-21T16:57:29.043-08:002016-01-21T16:57:29.043-08:00(continued....)
Western Poland at this time sees ...(continued....)<br /><br />Western Poland at this time sees the arrival of BB groups. In eastern Poland, CWC –like features continue in modified forms as the Trziniec culture. Later, c. 1300 BC we see the Luzatian culture – arising due to clear impulses from central Europe. This then collapses c. 700 BC, to see the spread of Pomoranian culture form the Baltic coast. This in turn collapses until Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30747346912785967142016-01-21T16:57:20.261-08:002016-01-21T16:57:20.261-08:00@ Ryu
“Yeah, the point of my questions boils down...@ Ryu<br /><br />“Yeah, the point of my questions boils down to this: how do we reconcile the genetic findings and their implications about differential reproductive rates (on both the uniparental and autosomal sides), and our understanding of the texture of the societies at the time?”<br /><br />I’ll stick with the north European plain as a case study because Im relatively familiar with it, and Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19586324255243080742016-01-21T15:55:34.456-08:002016-01-21T15:55:34.456-08:00It seems millet was eaten to some extent in Roman ...It seems millet was eaten to some extent in Roman Britain.<br />http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/28535/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11188970282637746341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-85891004846404085682016-01-21T15:27:10.121-08:002016-01-21T15:27:10.121-08:00Kurti
"The Middle Eastern dude was possibly ...Kurti<br /><br />"The Middle Eastern dude was possibly Ghassanid."<br /><br />I was thinking Syrian auxilia archer but that would fit Ghassanid as well.<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxilia#ArchersGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15285414992770307632016-01-21T15:15:25.724-08:002016-01-21T15:15:25.724-08:00Onur
"No, the Rathlin genomes are R1b-L21&qu...Onur<br /><br />"No, the Rathlin genomes are R1b-L21"<br /><br />Yeah I get L21 and S21 mixed up a lot - I should just call it the Irish one.<br /><br />The intended point was the higher correlation with LP.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-74058892729965028682016-01-21T14:32:06.884-08:002016-01-21T14:32:06.884-08:00FrankN
I mailed you an updated map
Btw, one of th...FrankN<br />I mailed you an updated map <br />Btw, one of the R1a, "east-shifted" samples from Haak was from a LN site- not clearly CWC but rather Baalberg. It's attribution seemed difficult, so maybe we should look at it specifically Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6663837236426001402016-01-21T13:50:40.284-08:002016-01-21T13:50:40.284-08:00@Ryu, Rob: I am still reading the CWC/GAC Poland a...@Ryu, Rob: I am still reading the CWC/GAC Poland and the Harke papers, and will come back on them later in more detail. Here already a few, unsorted remarks:<br /><br /><b>Artisans:</b> The magical blacksmith, feared for his strength, socially apart, but with specific high status roles (e.g. executioner, i.e. the King's "right hand") is well evidenced from Germanic mythology (CelticFrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64436822958050286892016-01-21T12:23:37.957-08:002016-01-21T12:23:37.957-08:00Onur, your question is very interesting but, unfor...Onur, your question is very interesting but, unfortunately, I am not aware of any papers that would list words adopted at different times from Indo-Aryan languages to Turkic languages. I would presume that Turkic linguists have made such lists and they exist at least in Turkish.<br /><br />However, for my personal interest, I checked a few words. I noticed that there are many words that have beenKristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.com