tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post1566698884306367518..comments2024-03-28T03:42:11.788-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Mitogenomes reveal post-Neolithic gene flow from the Near East to TuscanyDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49274993155039214002015-03-25T10:35:44.270-07:002015-03-25T10:35:44.270-07:00Judging from Hellenthal et al. 2014 this has nothi...Judging from Hellenthal et al. 2014 this has nothing to do with Etruscans. They dated the main admixture signal in modern Tuscans to around 942 AD (522 - 1222 AD) and found that it involved a French-like population and a Cypriot-like population (which most of all showed relations to Armenians, Syrians and Jordanians). The latter no doubt is responsible for the majority of the West Asian Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42699550239859926562015-03-24T14:35:54.004-07:002015-03-24T14:35:54.004-07:00"Separated" ?
They seem to lie within t..."Separated" ? <br />They seem to lie within the body of Italians? <br />And in any case, my above point stands Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-73174032571349548992015-03-24T11:41:27.086-07:002015-03-24T11:41:27.086-07:00@mike thomas
There is a reason in AuDna why Tusca...@mike thomas<br /><br />There is a reason in AuDna why Tuscan is always sperated from Italian and also BergamoGasparhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803562810086047583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-53601550861102382562015-03-24T06:34:04.008-07:002015-03-24T06:34:04.008-07:00@Roy King,
Of course we need ancient Neolithic DN...@Roy King,<br /><br />Of course we need ancient Neolithic DNA from these regions to confirm anything but where do you think/speculate Y-DNA haplogroup J2a was during the early Neolithic in the Near East?jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82394272422726345892015-03-23T19:04:08.184-07:002015-03-23T19:04:08.184-07:00@ Gaspar
"Etruria comprised the area located...@ Gaspar<br /><br />"Etruria comprised the area located between the Arno and the Tiber Rivers, corresponding roughly to present-day Tuscany, western Umbria, and northern Latium in Italy. The Etruscan civilization rose in this region around 800 BC,"<br /><br />Thank you for your reply. But my question to you was a leading one. Yes, scholars place the rise (ie culmination of processes Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11829699137955041902015-03-23T16:06:03.140-07:002015-03-23T16:06:03.140-07:00I'm very wary about attributing a hot spot in ...I'm very wary about attributing a hot spot in a very tiny part of Tuscany with West Asian mtDNA affinities to the Etruscans. There was way to much going on in the historic era to rule out some later migration of a small community that had persistent immigration over a period of time, in much the same way that there is a big cluster of Ethiopian immigrants in Denver, and a large Near Eastern andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34459869889120597192015-03-23T10:59:47.250-07:002015-03-23T10:59:47.250-07:00In addition to Y and mtDNA: A cursory glance at H...In addition to Y and mtDNA: A cursory glance at HLA alleles and haplotypes among modern-day Tuscans suggests, aside from typical European variants, some significant input from the Eastern Med via two routes: Balkans/Adriatic; & S.Italy/Sardinia. Plus some additional gene-flow from NW Africa via Sardinia.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52843783186986239572015-03-23T10:21:31.641-07:002015-03-23T10:21:31.641-07:00Alberto Piazza 1500 samples stated:
The samples fr...Alberto Piazza 1500 samples stated:<br />The samples from Tuscany show eastern haplogroups E3b1-M78, G2*- P15, J2a1b*-M67 and K2-M70 with frequencies very similar to those observed in Turkey and surrounding areas, but significantly different from those of neighbouring Italian regions. The microsatellite haplotypes associated to these haplogroups allow inference of ancestor lineages for Etruria Gasparhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803562810086047583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52505765319834979452015-03-23T03:06:55.009-07:002015-03-23T03:06:55.009-07:00"it's very difficult to explain this with..."it's very difficult to explain this with some sort of Indo-European expansion into Europe, let alone the Proto-Indo-European expansion."<br /><br />Agree with that. Not only J2 but also exsistence of West Asian L1b in North Italy might be explained by this. On the other hand I dont think that this migration happened in late bronze age. It might be happened in Late Neoletic or EarlyGökhanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00080085717667196486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-53000028086265569502015-03-22T22:19:09.837-07:002015-03-22T22:19:09.837-07:00Another for Alberto
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.co...Another for Alberto<br /><br />http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.22319/abstractGasparhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803562810086047583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90728929094756778962015-03-22T22:17:24.653-07:002015-03-22T22:17:24.653-07:00@Alberto
more for your etruscan papers
http://www...@Alberto<br />more for your etruscan papers<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/<br /><br />http://www.academia.edu/5017471/Genetic_Evidence_Does_Not_Support_an_Etruscan_Origin_in_Anatolia<br /><br /><br />@mike thomas<br />form the paper in question:<br />Etruria comprised the area located between the Arno and the Tiber Rivers, corresponding roughly to present-day Gasparhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803562810086047583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21416293849308104782015-03-22T17:44:14.868-07:002015-03-22T17:44:14.868-07:00"it's very difficult to explain this with..."it's very difficult to explain this with some sort of Indo-European expansion into Europe, let alone the Proto-Indo-European expansion."<br /><br />Unless there was some kind of domino effect.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79606167169738623592015-03-22T15:00:04.231-07:002015-03-22T15:00:04.231-07:00@ Gaspar
"We only know that etruscans first...@ Gaspar <br /><br />"We only know that etruscans first arrived in Italy ~800BC"<br /><br />Sorry, how do we <i>Know</i> this ? have I missed something ? <br /><br />@ Alberto<br /><br />The Late Bronze - Iron Age in Italy is a fsacinating period. lately there have been great publications. Seems like Italicazation (Indo-Europeanization) of the peninsula is somthing that can be linked toAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6610240506629095592015-03-22T13:25:23.995-07:002015-03-22T13:25:23.995-07:00Let me rephrase that: in Italy the widespread cult...Let me rephrase that: in Italy the widespread cultivation of millet first occurred in northern Italy during the middle Bronze Age.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64688091955945966892015-03-22T13:13:20.552-07:002015-03-22T13:13:20.552-07:00Millet was introduced into Europe from the steppe ...Millet was introduced into Europe from the steppe (it's recorded in Central Asia and Georgia before Europe).<br /><br />It's always been an important crop for Slavs and, based on isotope data, probably also Hallstatt Celts from east Central Europe.<br /><br />In Italy it's first recorded in the north in remains from the middle Bronze Age.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-10765609662083369432015-03-22T12:40:00.181-07:002015-03-22T12:40:00.181-07:00Yes, Etruscans were probably just an italic tribe ...Yes, Etruscans were probably just an italic tribe like any other. Even if they came from somewhere else (which is doubtful), their genetic impact was probably minimal.<br /><br />Tuscans have the importance of being the closest we can get to ancient Romans, I guess. Both south and north of Italy have more external influences than Tuscany, though ancient DNA from Romans would be much better, Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78286130789335289922015-03-22T12:09:48.786-07:002015-03-22T12:09:48.786-07:00I think the Etruscan incfluence is overrated. Tusc...I think the Etruscan incfluence is overrated. Tuscans are just Central Italians, and such they plot between Northern ones and Southern. Nothing more, nothing less. And their y-DNA haplogorup profile, is also intermediate between that of north and south of the country. So what is all this mystery and hype about the Etruscans ?? truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08622344688109770244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83924898007289788702015-03-22T12:00:57.518-07:002015-03-22T12:00:57.518-07:00@Gaspar
"They do have a high R1b and J2.&quo...@Gaspar<br /><br />"They do have a high R1b and J2."<br /><br />Has Y-DNA from Etruscans been analysed? I didn't find any reference to it.<br /><br />I did find this study from 2013 based on mtDNA (ancient and modern, from Etruscans, Tuscans, Anatolians and other Europeans). But they don't even give haplogroups (or I missed it):<br /><br />http://journals.plos.org/plosone/Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54121936008660108292015-03-22T10:54:10.296-07:002015-03-22T10:54:10.296-07:00We only know that etruscans first arrived in Italy...We only know that etruscans first arrived in Italy ~800BC. And we know that linguists cannot decifer fully the Etruscan language even with the 10000 words available.<br /><br />They do have a high R1b and J2. was La tene in switzerland also ~800BC.?<br />Not saying they came from there, but if R1b came from there, then someone should investigate thisGasparhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08803562810086047583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28946801594452339932015-03-22T07:34:32.689-07:002015-03-22T07:34:32.689-07:00Linking this to J2 1st millennium BC eastern Medit...Linking this to J2 1st millennium BC eastern Mediterranean movements is a possibility. But I wouldn't jump to it straight away.<br /><br />First, there are no dates about these mtDNA appearance in Tuscany. It could the be early 1st millennium BC, but it could also be 1000 years earlier.<br /><br />Second, the populations from which it comes from are not very Eastern Mediterranean. It's Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-41337734534717385782015-03-22T05:46:01.695-07:002015-03-22T05:46:01.695-07:00David
I definitely agree that the expansion of Et...David<br /><br />I definitely agree that the expansion of Etruscans and Minoans didn't have anything to PIE. They were a very Mediterranean route of connection. Basically, PIE was anywhere north of this. <br /><br />Roy; <br />I hope some aDNA soon comes from Italy of all places. I wonder what Neolithic Italy would have been like: Dominated by G2a ? R1b ? extinct form of I2 (like Sardinian) ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-45370484011970516582015-03-22T05:43:15.879-07:002015-03-22T05:43:15.879-07:00David,
''I would say they were people like...David,<br />''I would say they were people like the Etruscans and Minoans and presumably non-IE.''<br />On which basis if you please tell a bit:).Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-87836029624065681622015-03-22T05:23:51.154-07:002015-03-22T05:23:51.154-07:00Fantastic! I agree that it would explain the dense...Fantastic! I agree that it would explain the dense appearance of J2 in Italy, particularly if J2a is the counterpart of mtDNA-U7 in Iran/Armenia. More evidence is accumulating that J2a was east/north of the Levant during the initial Neolithic (PPNB) and moved into the Eastern Mediterranean somewhat later and spread to Italy with non-IE languages during the Bronze Age. As Davidski states, we need Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02272252711544391571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65277569884081669232015-03-22T05:01:18.156-07:002015-03-22T05:01:18.156-07:00ANE probably first appeared in Italy during the ea...ANE probably first appeared in Italy during the early Bronze Age with people like those buried at the Nogara site, who ate millet and entered Italy from the Hungarian Plain, where there seems to have been a lot of mixing between locals like CO1 and Yamnaya-derived groups from the steppe.<br /><br />https://www.academia.edu/1214628/Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19759887376035458672015-03-22T04:32:12.321-07:002015-03-22T04:32:12.321-07:00Davidski
"Let's wait and see if any Y-ha...Davidski <br />"Let's wait and see if any Y-haplogroup J turns up in ancient DNA west of Anatolia prior to the late Bronze Age."<br /><br />Are you linking the ANE appearing in Italy / Sth Europe with J2 from the southern Caucasus ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.com