tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post1779877366126343635..comments2024-03-18T22:01:02.498-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: The Uralic cline in the Global25Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger122125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-70611220531758002102020-12-13T13:56:10.909-08:002020-12-13T13:56:10.909-08:00JK1968/DA234 from Levänluhta appears on the G25 sp...JK1968/DA234 from Levänluhta appears on the G25 spreadsheets under both labels. If you could you run DA237? Norfern-Ostrobothnianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08786469674963515571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-4495771665522898832018-12-02T02:36:34.568-08:002018-12-02T02:36:34.568-08:00@Slumbery
Yes, some Uralic populations pull into ...@Slumbery<br /><br />Yes, some Uralic populations pull into their own spaces in a few dimensions, which worsens their fits no matter what you do.<br /><br />This is a problem only if you're unaware of it, and it can be advantage when looking for very specific signals of Uralic admixture.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24345202773853627632018-12-02T02:01:08.501-08:002018-12-02T02:01:08.501-08:00@Huck Finn
I make that sentence more accurate: Mod...@Huck Finn<br />I make that sentence more accurate: Modern FU populations _that have significant Siberian ancestry_ not only have Baikal-like ancestry that is missing in all the Sintashta outliers, but actually they all have more BHG than WSHG.<br /><br />Of course populations that have no or only low level Siberian ancestry do not count. I cannot say for example that Estonians have more BHG thanSlumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-51604723491339131512018-12-02T01:34:33.402-08:002018-12-02T01:34:33.402-08:00@ Slumbery: some features of a new Finnish Iron Ag...@ Slumbery: some features of a new Finnish Iron Age sample (Tavastian, 1100-1200 AD) were just published in a local newspaper. N1c1-Z1927, "looks like Narva Culture Balt or other Latvian or Swedish HG's or neolithic Ukrainian". "Not like modern Saami", i.e. no BHG, I'd guess, but don't know about WSHG.<br /><br />There is a load of new samples on the way. Queequeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04033948224040118380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69238883772815831472018-12-02T00:09:52.329-08:002018-12-02T00:09:52.329-08:00@Slumbery
These G25/nMonte fits shouldn't be ...@Slumbery<br /><br />These G25/nMonte fits shouldn't be taken too literally, because they'll vary from one population to another.<br /><br />The reason for this is that some populations dominate some of the dimensions due to recent drift. But you'll still be able to get sensible models for them, especially if there are ancient samples available that are directly relevant to their Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-60099559192901202542018-12-02T00:04:44.494-08:002018-12-02T00:04:44.494-08:00I have found a very good fit for Sintashta_O3 in n...I have found a very good fit for Sintashta_O3 in nMonte.<br /><br />Sintashta_MLBA_o3:Average<br />Fit: 1.4939<br />EHG 37.5% <br />Shamanka N 0% <br />Sintashta MLBA 10.83%<br />West Siberia N 51.67%<br /><br />Modern VUR populations also take 5-10% EHG with the same setup, but that is still significantly less and the fits are much worse. Sintashta_MLBA_O3 looks nothing like anything else. <br /Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-8969366737719853972018-12-01T23:39:43.581-08:002018-12-01T23:39:43.581-08:00@ Anthony "If not from Siberia where do you ...@ Anthony "If not from Siberia where do you suppose BOO got its "Nganassan/BHG" component from?"<br /><br />Of course. it comes from the east. However, we have so little relevant ancient DNA that the arrival of ENA to northeast Europe is not at all clear. We do not know when it happened, and we do not know if there are several different migrations via different routes.Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50655107541412541922018-12-01T16:02:35.378-08:002018-12-01T16:02:35.378-08:00@Arza That's not true, the Bell Beaker culture...@Arza That's not true, the Bell Beaker culture in Central Europe was clearly part of the Bronze Age.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46145012482011338562018-12-01T16:00:42.967-08:002018-12-01T16:00:42.967-08:00@ An Idiot
In Central Europe Bronze Age starts wi...@ An Idiot<br /><br />In Central Europe Bronze Age starts with Unetice Culture, well after BBC expansions: <br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age#Central_Europe<br /><i>In Central Europe, the early Bronze Age Unetice culture (1800–1600 BC)</i>Arzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10459843383682766479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28236939928927961402018-12-01T15:52:21.887-08:002018-12-01T15:52:21.887-08:00@Davidski I guess we just have to wait and see. If...@Davidski I guess we just have to wait and see. If that Caucasus paper has enough samples from across the entire Caucasus range during the Copper and Bronze Ages (as it seems to suggest) and it shows no sign of M269/L23, I'll almost certainly concede but be very confused (see my point above about why Steppe origin doesn't sit right in my head).<br /><br />It's only two weeks until we Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19144427636757822672018-12-01T15:47:25.577-08:002018-12-01T15:47:25.577-08:00@An Idiot
I can already tell you that the chances...@An Idiot<br /><br />I can already tell you that the chances of L23/M269 being from West Asia, or any part of Asia, are zero.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-40112422913231582312018-12-01T15:44:58.673-08:002018-12-01T15:44:58.673-08:00@Arza Basically, no Bronze = surely not Yamnaya in...@Arza Basically, no Bronze = surely not Yamnaya in origin. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-750773583738435092018-12-01T15:42:36.984-08:002018-12-01T15:42:36.984-08:00@Arza Previously, a Sicilian dated to 2500-1900 wa...@Arza Previously, a Sicilian dated to 2500-1900 was described as Bronze Age, so I'd wager this is from before then.<br /><br />But it doesn't really matter, as you would have thought that a Bronze Age invasion of Central Europe would spread Bronze smelting tech with them during their migrations. If this Sicilian Steppe sample is Copper Age, it isn't likely (in fact, very unlikely) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22562622570134467432018-12-01T15:38:45.691-08:002018-12-01T15:38:45.691-08:00@Davidski The fact that they lacked copper smeltin...@Davidski The fact that they lacked copper smelting technology makes me think they were typically Caucasian in Y DNA (as you know I see M269+ as spreading copper smelting tech during its earlier phases), so I'd agree, but I wouldn't be willing to bet against Shulaveri M269. Leyla-Tepe dates to the formational period of L23 however, and does possess copper smelting tech, as well as kurgansAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69826191441659064612018-12-01T15:35:57.845-08:002018-12-01T15:35:57.845-08:00@ An Idiot
It looks like Sicilian Early Bronze Ag...@ An Idiot<br /><br />It looks like Sicilian Early Bronze Age postdates Central European BBC expansion. <br /><br />https://www.ancient.eu/article/1190/bronze-age-sicily/<br /><br /><i>The Bronze Age in Sicily, considered one of the most important periods of the island's prehistory, witnessed the establishment of a unitary and in some ways artistically vibrant culture. The three main phases Arzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10459843383682766479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76708562916585401762018-12-01T15:35:20.313-08:002018-12-01T15:35:20.313-08:00@Bob Floy I have no major biases either, but the S...@Bob Floy I have no major biases either, but the Steppe hypothesis doesn't sit right in my head for various reasons (swastikas in the chalcolithic near east, modern Y DNA phylogeny distributions suggesting a homeland of L23 where Reich and Max Planck see the IE homeland, the fact that Yamnaya is clearly Z2103 and Corded Ware R1a (so where did L51 come from?), the spread of copper smelting Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9235724492693252062018-12-01T15:33:08.463-08:002018-12-01T15:33:08.463-08:00Here's a rule everyone should follow: whatever...Here's a rule everyone should follow: whatever Olympus Mons says, the opposite is likely to be true.<br /><br />R1b-M269 in Shulaveri? Haha.<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9657359315991305702018-12-01T15:30:32.988-08:002018-12-01T15:30:32.988-08:00Shulaveri scares me though, if Olympus Mons was so...Shulaveri scares me though, if Olympus Mons was somehow right all along the confusion will probably put me off archaogenetics forever aha. The odds are small, but way way higher than they were only a few months ago. Here's hoping for Leyla-Tepe.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56470559731793318782018-12-01T15:28:09.428-08:002018-12-01T15:28:09.428-08:00By the way, I have no dog in this fight as such. A...By the way, I have no dog in this fight as such. At one time(many years ago) I supported the Renfrew theory. But the substantial data that we have at this point really does suggest that the Yamnaya/steppe theory is essentially correct, and for that to be overturned or even heavily modified there would have to be some pretty serious new discoveries which would explain away everything we have now. Bob Floyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863468406651284016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90994665447776904452018-12-01T15:27:29.862-08:002018-12-01T15:27:29.862-08:00The mountain of data means nothing if a good sampl...The mountain of data means nothing if a good sample contradicts it. The Caucasus paper, I feel, will be the more important one though. If they manage to get a wholesome coverage of the entire Caucasus from the 5th millennium BC as they are suggesting they have, we should get a lot of answers.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-61763448625811172922018-12-01T15:22:18.563-08:002018-12-01T15:22:18.563-08:00"during the Early Bronze Age, and possibly ea..."during the Early Bronze Age, and possibly earlier"<br /><br />We've all seen enough literature at this point to know that this kind of language shouldn't be interpreted too strongly, especial in an abstract. Whatever hard data they have would need to be closely analyzed first.<br />And again, it wouldn't jive with the mountain of data suggesting otherwise, which should tellBob Floyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863468406651284016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-726323031380730702018-12-01T15:19:45.876-08:002018-12-01T15:19:45.876-08:00@Bob Floy By across the Mediterranean, I mean limi...@Bob Floy By across the Mediterranean, I mean limited to the West Med only of course, as that's all that the sampling entails. <br /><br />I think they mean a migration from somewhere like France to these West Med islands, but I disagree with that - the original Copper Age Bell Beakers being Steppe-admixed in the first place fits much nicer with the technology being non-Bronze (as Yamnaya hadAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69373912939678175102018-12-01T15:12:12.325-08:002018-12-01T15:12:12.325-08:00Unless they are being very lenient with their dati...Unless they are being very lenient with their dating in saying the Sicilian Steppe-admix dates to before the Early Bronze age, a Copper Age Steppe sample from that region basically completely rules out anything to do with Yamnaya.<br /><br />And as for the abstract about the Caucasus - that is really hard to make sense of to be honest, but I presume it means that they found Steppe-admixed groups Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39194427209702984792018-12-01T15:09:29.190-08:002018-12-01T15:09:29.190-08:00@an idiot
Also, even if they were suggesting that...@an idiot<br /><br />Also, even if they were suggesting that, there's still a substantial body of evidence to the contrary, which would have to be overturned somehow before the whole narrative could be flipped. Bob Floyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863468406651284016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54813011852199111942018-12-01T15:05:59.087-08:002018-12-01T15:05:59.087-08:00@an idiot
"Which basically means that this m...@an idiot<br /><br />"Which basically means that this migration of Steppe-admixed people across the Mediterranean was before the Bronze Age."<br /><br />In all seriousness, I don't see how what was said in that abstract equals this^.Bob Floyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863468406651284016noreply@blogger.com