tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post3859343144596383908..comments2024-03-28T02:40:18.114-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Pre- and Post-Kurgan EuropeDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger248125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79670988724208527572015-09-12T07:35:15.059-07:002015-09-12T07:35:15.059-07:00I just tried guessing at the different proportions...I just tried guessing at the different proportions to get some examples close enough to the modern day pops to intuit the general trend. The 50:50 Baalberge:CW mix surprised me by being close to on the button for where the English dot was. The combinations generally ended up pretty close, although there is a little difference in PC3 (1% of variance, where PC1 is 88.2% and PC2 10.3%) where the Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50057614034134750752015-09-11T17:40:19.207-07:002015-09-11T17:40:19.207-07:00Matt,
This is a nice graph.
http://i.imgur.com/...Matt,<br /><br />This is a nice graph. <br /><br />http://i.imgur.com/4NJG1UI.png<br /><br />How did you work out the ancestry proportions?Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27330053930039773752015-09-11T12:25:14.831-07:002015-09-11T12:25:14.831-07:00Hmmm.... I don't think this is really much in ...Hmmm.... I don't think this is really much in contradiction with Haak as such, exactly.<br /><br />I think this way of looking at things is that it emphasises what Haak did not emphasise as much - that the process of HG admixture in both East and West Europe was a progressing increase over time.<br /><br />This of course was there in Haak, in terms of the paper did talk about shifts in Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82899149822143373742015-09-10T01:32:41.679-07:002015-09-10T01:32:41.679-07:00Haak et al. and some other authors following the s...Haak et al. and some other authors following the same convention call "Middle Neolithic" to the early and middle (pre-CW or pre-BB) Chalcolithic. For example Baalberge, but actually every single MN sample is early Chalcolithic. It's an English-inspired nomenclature that clashes with the well established conventions of mainland Europe. The traditional English view was that there was Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27789033634533717362015-09-09T19:19:23.837-07:002015-09-09T19:19:23.837-07:00Maju,
Spain_MN isn't a Chalcolithic sample, i...Maju,<br /><br />Spain_MN isn't a Chalcolithic sample, it's the Middle Neolithic sample from Haak et al.<br /><br />Hungary_BA isn't Vucedol, it's Vatya and other Hungarian EBA and MBA cultures.<br /><br />You need to get these things right, otherwise you just end up confusing yourself.<br /><br />And how did you work out that Matt's cluster analysis contradicts the estimates Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68287705225641770162015-09-09T17:49:55.153-07:002015-09-09T17:49:55.153-07:00Well, Matt, I can only insist and offer my technic...Well, Matt, I can only insist and offer my technical support as "editor". The materials are interesting and should provide people with yet another interesting viewpoint or two on this complex issue, which we are all struggling to grasp. It should encourage meditation and debate. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-63961831655743953982015-09-09T15:27:13.122-07:002015-09-09T15:27:13.122-07:00Thanks for the offer, really appreciate that. Just...Thanks for the offer, really appreciate that. Just a personal thing but not sure I'm totally confident doing that. Ultimately these are just putting graph and stat functions from the Past3 software over the dataset David's produced. I will think it over though.<br /><br />Still, with those K means clusters here's a couple of goes at producing them laid over. The clustering is quite Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24677195079043328672015-09-08T12:32:13.340-07:002015-09-08T12:32:13.340-07:00@Matt: I'm still subscribed, yes. And I do app...@Matt: I'm still subscribed, yes. And I do appreciate a lot your statistical data. The 4 cluster data (or even the 3 clusters one), strongly supports my notion of two distinctive baselines for pre-IE Europe and my impression that modern Europeans still largely cluster within those two pre-IE baseline sets. <br /><br />On one side there is cluster 2, which we can call Atlantic Neolithic, whichMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23326083507629352532015-09-08T01:08:43.758-07:002015-09-08T01:08:43.758-07:00Maju, not sure if you're still reading this to...Maju, not sure if you're still reading this topic, but I thought it might be interesting to post up a clustering perspective on these stats -<br /><br />http://i.imgur.com/MQ1OuZT.png<br /><br />As clusters should represent the differences without any question of how each PC is being weighted visually. <br /><br />Choice of 5 clusters for the K means on the above is pretty arbitrary, here is Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19263800283302092142015-09-06T14:36:38.260-07:002015-09-06T14:36:38.260-07:00Don't get me wrong, David, I'm not trying ...Don't get me wrong, David, I'm not trying to ignore PC2 or diminish the importance of "Kurgan" admixture (that would be another discussion and we already went through that part). I just mean to emphasize important details about PC1 and the very large differences between the various pre-Kurgan baseline populations, which are seemingly reflected in modern ones too. Regardless of Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-74618355127837290312015-09-06T03:37:19.171-07:002015-09-06T03:37:19.171-07:00You're still confusing two issues here.
- the...You're still confusing two issues here.<br /><br />- the high level of similarity between Middle Neolithic Western/Central Europeans and the Eastern Europeans who replaced/absorbed them, which is what the low relative value of PC2 shows<br /><br />- the fact that Middle Neolithic Western/Central Europeans were in large part replaced by Eastern Europeans during the Eneolithic/Bronze Age, whichDavidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44686051319457677652015-09-06T02:50:35.338-07:002015-09-06T02:50:35.338-07:00I was just reconsidering this PCA, as well as othe...I was just reconsidering this PCA, as well as other similar ones that have been published in the last two years, in the context of another discussion on the origin of specifically Basques. And I could not avoid going back to the issue of the distortion between PC1 and PC2 apportions, because if the apportion would be made realistic (vertical axis should be x32, right?), almost only PC1 matters. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84153483928187430542015-09-04T08:53:11.994-07:002015-09-04T08:53:11.994-07:00@Maju
I was replying to Mike T, who was talking a...@Maju<br /><br />I was replying to Mike T, who was talking about the earlier structure of R1b. He left off a couple of the lesser-known but no less important early branches. I agree that the structure of L11 (and Z2103) is important in itself, but that is not what we were talking about.<br /><br />I don't intend the TMRCAs from Y Full as gospel, but as relative points indicating the quiet capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-623198083923043602015-09-04T02:52:18.776-07:002015-09-04T02:52:18.776-07:00We don't know much, Capra, but one thing we do...We don't know much, Capra, but one thing we don't know for sure is whether those or any other TRMCAs are any more real than any arbitrary figure I can come come up with. Don't feed us up with guesstimates that have nearly the same scientific value as dating the world based on biblical genealogies. <br /><br />And something we do know and that you do not mention is the structure under Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-47367824153954425632015-09-03T12:54:56.433-07:002015-09-03T12:54:56.433-07:00@Mike Thomas
Here's what I know about R1b - w...@Mike Thomas<br /><br />Here's what I know about R1b - which is enough to say we don't really know that much. <br /><br />R1b-M343 (P25 is an unstable marker, known to be bad for 10 years, and it isn't clear whether the R1b1-L278 level even exists). Split ~22 000 years ago.<br /><br />I. R1b-PH1165 - Bhutan, Tajikstan, India, Xinjiang. We know almost nothing about this.<br />II. capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6521668344971751582015-09-03T09:08:38.071-07:002015-09-03T09:08:38.071-07:00Very much in agreement, Capra. However matrilocali...Very much in agreement, Capra. However matrilocality seems mostly a Neolithic development and tends to be rarer than patrilocality, at least that's my impression. <br /><br />I agree even more with what you say about generalized adoption, and that also happened even with whole tribal units (Iroquois are known to have offered defeated tribes to join their league or leave the land). We are Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-47492766400551367222015-09-03T08:48:22.436-07:002015-09-03T08:48:22.436-07:00Matrilocality is common enough to be worth conside...Matrilocality is common enough to be worth considering though. In North America there were many matrilocal Neolithic or sedentary Mesolithic societies with matrilineal clans. They were by no means peaceful (quite the opposite!) or matriarchal, but they did tend to have a relatively higher status for women. In northwestern Canada (where I am from) free women were treated like dirt among the mobilecapra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-71401895190575140352015-09-03T02:28:24.036-07:002015-09-03T02:28:24.036-07:00Patrilocality alone explains many of those cases o...Patrilocality alone explains many of those cases on its own: women's lineages are constantly reshuffled, while men's ones much less commonly. In patrilocality, which seems very common, communities are structured around groups of brothers and paternal cousins, who obviously share the same lineage, barring the oddball adoption. For whatever is worth chimpanzees are also patrilocal. <br /><Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80268766123188611842015-09-03T00:10:53.336-07:002015-09-03T00:10:53.336-07:00I put that text there because it is amusing and of...I put that text there because it is amusing and often comments also on this blog testify to that kind of ideas. Can't you see an analogy between IE replacement theories in a huge area ranging from Spain to India and "gaining preferential access to food and mates and other desirable items or activities in a hierarchical society". Many of you claim that Yamnaya R1b and Corded Ware R1aKristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22072515004502527962015-09-02T16:52:19.259-07:002015-09-02T16:52:19.259-07:00@Kristiina: appealing to chimpanzees (and forgetti...@Kristiina: appealing to chimpanzees (and forgetting the equally close bonobos, who are matrilocal and almost matriarchal) in order to "explain" human genetics left me totally open-mouthed, sorry. I did not expect that at all. <br /><br />Mind you that a chimp alpha male is built largely on his cliqué of beta males who also get share in the spoils. In fact even "gamma" males Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11566351447207532802015-09-02T11:46:45.335-07:002015-09-02T11:46:45.335-07:00Maybe I had better not to continue, but anyway, Ma...Maybe I had better not to continue, but anyway, Maju, I did not imply that R1b is recent (post Iron Age) among Basques. I said previously that maybe L51 was involved in introduction of agriculture to the Western Mediterranean. Instead, I wanted to say that maybe Basques were yDNA-wise more diverse before but drift has resulted to the accumulation of R1b-L51. In any case, the isolation of Kuusamo Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83294468562449924632015-09-02T09:45:47.599-07:002015-09-02T09:45:47.599-07:00There is no conflation here, Basques have both low...There is no conflation here, Basques have both low diversity and high raw homozygosity indicating long-term small population size and drift, and also long RoH segments (compared to Orcadian isolate for instance) indicating they've been an endogamous population until recently. As for the R1b could have been accumulated at any point after arrival of the IE's. To confirm things like non-IE Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18612445331161207952015-09-02T08:59:23.344-07:002015-09-02T08:59:23.344-07:00Or to be more clear:
1. The first Indoeuropeans o...Or to be more clear:<br /><br />1. The first Indoeuropeans of any sorts (plausibly Celts at least partly) appear in the upper Ebro c. 1000 BCE, that is some 3000 years ago, at the beginning of the Iron Age, still carrying an Urnfield cultural package but later absorbing Hallstatt influences as well. From the North they only appear since La Tène, what is significantly more recent. Incidentally theMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64944867686986336092015-09-02T08:46:00.375-07:002015-09-02T08:46:00.375-07:00@Saikorth:
1. Post IE arrival in this part of Eur...@Saikorth:<br /><br />1. Post IE arrival in this part of Europe is Iron Age. There were no IEs of any sort before the late Urnfields/early Hallstatt so far west. Nor so far south (i.e. Catalonia, Languedoc) before the latest part of the Bronze Age (mainline Urnfields).<br /><br />2. "it has other effects beyond the aforementioned Treemix issues as well, for instance it makes populations moreMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-91811548596387473062015-09-02T08:24:56.500-07:002015-09-02T08:24:56.500-07:00Two points: I did not say the R1b-related founder ...Two points: I did not say the R1b-related founder effect in Basques needs to be post Iron Age, just post I-E arrival, and Basques have kept being an endogamous population post-Iron Age as well, the study comparing HGDP pops says they have more long RoH's than Orcadians so there is data support.<br /><br />High homozygosity and low diversity is a good indicator of longer-term population size, Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.com