tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post4263257448187395728..comments2024-03-19T04:18:48.805-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Hungarian Yamnaya predictionsDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger240125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75289694158101664082019-02-14T00:59:36.599-08:002019-02-14T00:59:36.599-08:00@Joe Flood
What proof do you have that the 'Y...@Joe Flood<br /><br /><i>What proof do you have that the 'Yamnaya' expanded into the Carpathian basin?</i><br /><br />Read the blog entry.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-63432009810214249202019-02-14T00:32:15.712-08:002019-02-14T00:32:15.712-08:00What proof do you have that the 'Yamnaya' ...What proof do you have that the 'Yamnaya' expanded into the Carpathian basin? Sure there are a bunch of Kurgan sites leading up the lower Danube to the Carpathian, but what makes them 'Yamnaya' ? Are they Eastern R1b {R-Z2103)? Are they large scale animal herders or hunters after minerals, as the so called 'Yamnaya' on the steppe seem to have been? Do they have some sort Joe Floodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14684083205595693107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64957392001409985732019-01-31T22:13:17.861-08:002019-01-31T22:13:17.861-08:00The genetic landscape of the steppe is finally bec...The genetic landscape of the steppe is finally becoming clear and with it I hope to see which kind of steppe population is the one that expanded into Europe and became Corded Ware, and is most likely to be PIE or Yamnaya's ancestor. For long the steppe was spotty and we knew little of where we came from and what populations used to live there. That is changing very rapidly and the pieces of Gabrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718136580023709390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84291067303419269522019-01-31T21:00:10.147-08:002019-01-31T21:00:10.147-08:00How are we sure that Armenia/Anatolia_ChL's St...How are we sure that Armenia/Anatolia_ChL's Steppe_Piedmont affinities isn't due to extra CHG/Iran_Neo?Gabrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718136580023709390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-31502329419418767432019-01-31T16:48:27.684-08:002019-01-31T16:48:27.684-08:00That makes more sense. Yamnaya might still be near...That makes more sense. Yamnaya might still be near perfect proxy for Don-Caspien PIE pop. <br /><br />Armenia_Chl choses Steppe_Piedmont over Yamnaya. Anatolia_Chl has some Steppe_Piedmont. Could this be where Hittites come from?Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24689623416633807882019-01-31T16:27:07.851-08:002019-01-31T16:27:07.851-08:00@Samuel Andrews
The Wang et al. supplement sugges...@Samuel Andrews<br /><br />The Wang et al. supplement suggests that the ancestors of Progress/Vonyuchka_Eneolithic may have come from the north, from the Don Caspian steppe. If so, then Corded Ware, Yamnaya etc. shared ancestry with Progress/Vonyuchka_Eneolithic, rather than being derived from them.<br /><br /><i>Complementary to the southern [Darkveti-Meshoko] Eneolithic component, a northern Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-86562368791937485962019-01-31T16:01:36.422-08:002019-01-31T16:01:36.422-08:00If you take G25 results literally, Steppe Piedmont...If you take G25 results literally, Steppe Piedmont can't be the proto-PIE/Kurgan population that Wang 2018 thinks it is. Ukraine_Eneolithic, Corded Ware all share a something which had lots more EHG.Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26835135408993984422019-01-31T11:12:53.246-08:002019-01-31T11:12:53.246-08:00@David, counting pixels, the results for D(EHG,CHG...@David, counting pixels, the results for D(EHG,CHG;test,Mbuti) is Wang's supplement should be, for a sample:<br /><br />Samara_Eneolithic: 0.1091, Steppe Maykop: 0.0761, Yamnaya_Samara: 0.0443, Steppe_Eneolithic: 0.0398, Armenia_Chl: 0, Caucasus_Eneolithic: -0.0443, Late Maykop: -0.0216, Armenia_EBA: -0.0205, Iran_N: -0.0352<br /><br />Close enough? If PG2004 would be about 0.0510, then that Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15137124558209672312019-01-31T06:39:14.330-08:002019-01-31T06:39:14.330-08:00@Matt
Not sure if adding PG2004 would shift thing...@Matt<br /><br />Not sure if adding PG2004 would shift things significantly, but anyway...<br /><br />EHG CHG Progress_Eneolithic Mbuti 0.0350 6.433<br />EHG CHG Vonyuchka_Eneolithic Mbuti 0.0325 6.142 <br /><br />EHG CHG Yamnaya_Samara Mbuti 0.0438 13.409<br /><br />CHG Yamnaya_Samara Progress_Eneolithic Mbuti -0.0298 Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-12529110009751745612019-01-31T05:32:59.254-08:002019-01-31T05:32:59.254-08:00Certainly though it is odd why the D stat D(EHG;CH...Certainly though it is odd why the D stat D(EHG;CHG,test,Mbuti) comes out as clearly non-sig different to Yamnaya in the D stat in Wang's supplementary material: https://imgur.com/a/9COX98O<br /><br />But doesn't look to be the case here.<br /><br />Curiously, D-stats also show Caucasus Eneolithic being rather richer in CHG ancestry than Armenia MBA-LBA, which didn't show up at all onMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25965165444895052322019-01-31T05:15:33.459-08:002019-01-31T05:15:33.459-08:00@Davidski:"So we should hold off from making ...@Davidski:<i>"So we should hold off from making any conclusions until the genotype data from the paper are released."</i><br /><br />Another point to add is that there may be some substructure among the "Steppe Eneolithic" - we've got in the datasheet PG2001 and VJ1001 who look like the more low EHG samples of the three who sit together, while PG2004 is very slightly laterMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-35209348269572644642019-01-31T02:01:29.594-08:002019-01-31T02:01:29.594-08:00@Dragos
These samples lack ancestry from Anatolia...@Dragos<br /><br />These samples lack ancestry from Anatolian and West Siberian/Kazakh steppe foragers.<br /><br />In fact, even CHG, Ganj_Dareh_N and Sarazm_Eneolithic have too much Anatolian-related ancestry to provide decent fits.<br /><br />What this means is that there was a population of foragers similar to a mix between EHG, AG3 and CHG living north of the Caucasus, but not exactly like Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-37538967570848156492019-01-31T01:59:07.800-08:002019-01-31T01:59:07.800-08:00@ Davidski
Obviously neither are superb, but you...@ Davidski <br /><br />Obviously neither are superb, but yours is more wanting ( 4,3 vs 5.6)<br /><br />The absence of Anatolian -like admixture goes against obvious recent admixture from anywhere near Anatolia; so perhaps somewhere significantly further east; and quite archaic ? I suspect we’re still missing key samples Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-88429522374658122862019-01-31T01:27:37.847-08:002019-01-31T01:27:37.847-08:00@Dragos
But look at the distance in your model. Y...@Dragos<br /><br />But look at the distance in your model. You obviously don't have the right proximate sources; just near and far proxies. Either that, or like I said, Vonyuchka_Eneolithic isn't really a mixture.<br /><br />And with formal stats, Vonyuchka_Eneolithic doesn't require Iran Neolithic to have its ancestry modeled.<br /><br />It just needs a lot of EHG, ANE and anything Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-5133550760058028232019-01-31T00:56:33.174-08:002019-01-31T00:56:33.174-08:00Vonyuchka requires Iran Neolithic. Using Epipaleol...Vonyuchka requires Iran Neolithic. Using Epipaleolithic sources:<br /><br /><br />Vonyuchka_Eneolithic <br /> EHG 42.7%<br /> CHG 33.9%<br /> Ganj_Dareh_N 16.2%<br /> Hotu_HG 5.6%<br /> AfontovaGora3:I9050.damage 1.6%<br /> Levant_N 0%<br /> WHG 0%<br /> West_Siberia_N 0%<br /> Lokomotiv_N 0%<br /> Boncuklu_N 0%<br /> <br /> Distance 4.3944%<br /><br /><br />On Matt's plot it appears slightlyDragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-87528646334771023982019-01-30T19:29:00.674-08:002019-01-30T19:29:00.674-08:00Looks like the Hungarian kurgan samples may or may...Looks like the Hungarian kurgan samples may or may not be Yamnaya. According to the dating of the Hunarian plain:<br /><br />Pre-Pit Grave (or Pre-Yamnaya) period: 3400/3350–3300/3000–2750 cal BC<br />Early Pit Grave (or Yamnaya) period: 3300/3100–2900/2600 cal BCRichard Roccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10137962922951473003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69226781283894513132019-01-30T18:19:31.136-08:002019-01-30T18:19:31.136-08:00However, I should mention that these are prelimina...However, I should mention that these are preliminary genotype data.<br /><br />So we should hold off from making any conclusions until the genotype data from the paper are released.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-45687407921578002572019-01-30T16:11:38.298-08:002019-01-30T16:11:38.298-08:00@Sam, I haven't done the nMonte, but in reproc...@Sam, I haven't done the nMonte, but in reprocessed PCA it looks like if you were to model Yamnaya only allowing Progress-Vonyuchka, EHG and GAC, you'd get about 58:30:12. But anywhere in the interval 25-30% looks like it would be OK in such a model. Still seems like they should've picked it up tho! Harder because Progress-Vonyuchka is closer to EHG than Anatolia_N and WHG for ex, butMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-61965244101152276452019-01-30T15:56:17.143-08:002019-01-30T15:56:17.143-08:00@Samuel Andrews
The main dimension with Kurgan dr...@Samuel Andrews<br /><br /><i>The main dimension with Kurgan drift is PC24. Progress_Eneolithic has this drift but Vonyuchka_Eneolithic doesn't.<br /><br />The results for both are confusing. Probably they don't fit in G25 yet.</i><br /><br />You're looking too closely at the least significant dimensions, which are more easily and potentially radically affected by recent drift.<br /><Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-32960125680021825512019-01-30T15:28:26.810-08:002019-01-30T15:28:26.810-08:00Same West Eurasia reprocessing as above with a rot...Same West Eurasia reprocessing as above with a rotation to make match more closely "HG" aligned with PC1: https://imgur.com/a/WIafRrSMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-87116925009187917742019-01-30T15:04:02.778-08:002019-01-30T15:04:02.778-08:00The main dimension with Kurgan drift is PC24. Prog...The main dimension with Kurgan drift is PC24. Progress_Eneolithic has this drift but Vonyuchka_Eneolithic doesn't.<br /><br />The results for both are confusing. Probably they don't fit in G25 yet. What is clear is they, especially Progress, have more ANE than EHG can give. Also, Vonyuckha has IranNeo-affinity. <br /><br />Also, there's no way Yamnaya is just Eneolithic Steppe+farmer.Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-31067902981138082802019-01-30T14:11:37.035-08:002019-01-30T14:11:37.035-08:00To add to last comment, closest populations in pre...To add to last comment, closest populations in present day for Khvalysnk, Yamnaya, CHG and the new Eneolithic samples: https://imgur.com/a/epJ5ByV<br /><br />In present day terms they look closest to a South-Central Asian flavour (through different processes). CHG is very Caucasus and Khvalysnk is rather NE European. Yamnaya between Khvalynsk and Progress-Vonyuchka, with a little NW European Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-12806276822089803072019-01-30T13:48:08.242-08:002019-01-30T13:48:08.242-08:00@Dave, so the legendary Eneolithic samples have fi...@Dave, so the legendary Eneolithic samples have finally arrived ;)<br /><br />Obligatory plots, using averages datasheet only:<br /><br />Straight Global 25, sample of dimensions informative to West Eurasia, with Khvalysnk, Yamnaya_Samara, the Eneolithic samples and CHG broken out: https://imgur.com/a/Ly5jwtg<br /><br />Reprocessed Global 25, to focus on West Eurasia: https://imgur.com/a/yZiTF45<Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11343354648415633122019-01-30T12:23:16.607-08:002019-01-30T12:23:16.607-08:00There's no Anatolian ancestry in Progress/Vony...There's no Anatolian ancestry in Progress/Vonyuchka_Eneolithic, and it's already at a high level in Meshoko, which is dated to about the same time.<br /><br />It got into Yamnaya via the North Pontic steppe, probably from the Balkans, and maybe a little bit from the south via Maykop.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6079711117607796962019-01-30T11:52:09.920-08:002019-01-30T11:52:09.920-08:00Something like 20% south of Caucasus admixture in ...Something like 20% south of Caucasus admixture in Progress seems reasonable and historical. <br />I’d be very surprised if there was an absolute Barrier between these two cultural groupsDragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.com