tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post4508542676139376121..comments2024-03-28T14:29:43.280-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: The ancient DNA case against the Anatolian hypothesisDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger129125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-12158098943028480112015-08-05T12:32:49.337-07:002015-08-05T12:32:49.337-07:00"Copper miners who boomeranged their lactase ..."Copper miners who boomeranged their lactase persistence ??"<br /><br />Not so much LP except in the west but yes *if* copper working is somehow associated with R1b from the Urals then it might correlate with MC1R as well.<br /><br />If correct it should show up in populations like the Newars in Nepal who are c. 10% R1b. They have a caste system so if correct then you might expect theirGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72389318701635063802015-08-04T15:52:43.759-07:002015-08-04T15:52:43.759-07:00Have a close look at the phylogenetic structure of...Have a close look at the phylogenetic structure of R1a-M417. All of the main branches are found in Europe; R1a-CTS4385, R1a-Z282 and R1a-Z93. The first one is restricted to NW Europe. <br /><br />On the other hand, 99% of the R1a in Asia is R1a-Z93, but the most basal subclades are found in Poland and Russia. <br /><br />R1b is more complex. But we have genomes of Eastern European Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-81110899454325247942015-08-04T15:39:23.104-07:002015-08-04T15:39:23.104-07:00On what basis do you say those subclades weren'...On what basis do you say those subclades weren't originated in that region (Iran, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Northern India)? <br /><br />Is there archaeogenetic evidence to prove it? <br /><br />I would guess it's also possible that R1a-M417 may have been originated somewhere between Eastern Europe and the region above mentioned. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284371973969360432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28664463810162257882015-08-04T10:31:36.870-07:002015-08-04T10:31:36.870-07:00It makes no difference where the "oldest"...It makes no difference where the "oldest" subclades of R1a and R1b are found today if they weren't found there 3,000 years ago.<br /><br />Eastern European hunter-gatherers carried R1a and R1b, so let's see if Central Asian hunter-gatherers did too. But I seriously doubt it.<br /><br />Also, 99% of the R1a in the world today is R1a-M417, which certainly expanded from Eastern Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11109182924795769482015-08-04T10:21:32.011-07:002015-08-04T10:21:32.011-07:00I'm not an expert in genetics, but as far as I...I'm not an expert in genetics, but as far as I know the oldest subclades of Y-DNA haplogroups R1b and R1a are found between Iran, Turkemenistan, Afghanistan and Northern India. Therefore I would assume that Indo-European (or proto-Indo-European) languages were originated in this region. <br /><br />The male populations carrying these genes may have spread to the Caucasus and Anatolia ia Iran Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284371973969360432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-70544449809513399852015-08-04T02:47:23.132-07:002015-08-04T02:47:23.132-07:00Grey
Copper miners who boomeranged their lactase ...Grey <br />Copper miners who boomeranged their lactase persistence ??Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-13095870689120897432015-08-04T02:03:11.477-07:002015-08-04T02:03:11.477-07:00Krefter
"Map of Pre-Historic carriers of Red...Krefter<br /><br />"Map of Pre-Historic carriers of Red hair."<br /><br />Cool - pretty sure personally that the red hair gene will be a significant clue to something or other - not entirely sure what it will turn out to be but something.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-33828803861357922852015-08-03T16:39:44.367-07:002015-08-03T16:39:44.367-07:00Maybe, but all Caucasians show EEF-related ancestr...Maybe, but all Caucasians show EEF-related ancestry, presumably from Anatolia, while Yamnaya lack it, and they also lack G2a.<br /><br />So "teal" may have moved onto the steppe from the North Caucasus before both of these markers spread out across the Caucasus.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65752840467420112662015-08-03T06:35:49.712-07:002015-08-03T06:35:49.712-07:00I wouldn't want to argue whether Georgia or th...I wouldn't want to argue whether Georgia or the rest of the Caucuses are in Europe or not. Let's say they're on the border. ;-)<br /><br />More pertinently, I was wondering out loud if it's possible that some of the old G2a seen in the Caucuses could be related to the Near Eastern input into "Teal," along with some of the non-IE language survival as well. PFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13780789381709373839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68575278420341332902015-08-02T16:57:53.014-07:002015-08-02T16:57:53.014-07:00When dna/stats on Maykop are released, maybe a com...When dna/stats on Maykop are released, maybe a comparison can also be done using K6 by comparing to modern Georgians.<br />For example K6- Georgians are roughly 70+/-% Middle Easatern-25%+/-<br /><br />https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17FnR-OeYN4m-XCzWxChiLPJR6QW_ehmR3I0Mrz6OjDI/edit?pli=1#gid=1930035171<br /><br />Georgian mg49 0.731425 0.00001 0.241437 0.00001 0.00001 0.027108ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00239954589937094679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-57633671441111125332015-08-02T16:49:13.169-07:002015-08-02T16:49:13.169-07:00K6 is a nice concise test. Parsing the data from S...K6 is a nice concise test. Parsing the data from Samara H.G. IMO looks like Mamonov might have been on to something.<br />"One of the most controversial questions is the perio-<br />disation of the process of Neolithisation. Mamonov(2000.158) takes the 14C dates of bivalve shells found in the occupation debris of Chekalino IV, Ilyi-inskaya and Lebyazhinka IV sites from <br />c.8600 to 7940 ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00239954589937094679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44625457636462012022015-08-02T16:23:00.755-07:002015-08-02T16:23:00.755-07:00There is growing concensus- at least amongst Georg...There is growing concensus- at least amongst Georgian archaeologists- that the earliest kurgans in Georgia represent a pre-Kura-Araxes phase of Ubaid/ pre-Uruk expansion into the Caucasus, which then also (slightly <i>later</i> reached North caucasus (ie Majkop). In their view, this was nothing short of a significant colonization by Mesopotamian colonists. In this regard, then, "Teal" Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11838876742872507022015-08-02T15:08:55.511-07:002015-08-02T15:08:55.511-07:00'Karelia HG (and EHG in general) is certainly ...<i>'Karelia HG (and EHG in general) is certainly intermediate between WHG and ANE at some level, but based on qpGraph models this doesn't look to be the result of recent mixture between WHG and ANE.'</i><br />Definitely ANE must have been old east of the Baltic, anyway much older than 'Siberian' as Kristiina elaborated. This should make us all wonder how dominant this Rokushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13883125231922541439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18053390842306172592015-08-02T14:59:45.264-07:002015-08-02T14:59:45.264-07:00Let's wait for those Maikop genomes.Let's wait for those Maikop genomes.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65215749465457588202015-08-02T14:34:05.397-07:002015-08-02T14:34:05.397-07:00@Martin
I agree that calculators based on modern ...@Martin<br /><br />I agree that calculators based on modern populations cannot be taken literally when looking at ancient samples. In the case of the K12 Gedrosia component, it's a bit misleading because if comes from the K7b "West Asian", which splits into Gedrosia and Caucasus, but Caucasus takes also Southern, which in the end becomes a strange mix.<br /><br />So I would rather Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29028295278176763832015-08-02T14:22:29.277-07:002015-08-02T14:22:29.277-07:00Map of Pre-Historic carriers of Red hair.
https:/...Map of Pre-Historic carriers of Red hair.<br /><br />https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zpAcd_2YNln8.ksMlbmYc9Pus&usp=sharing<br /><br />It looks like a lot, but it isn't. 1/5 of people in South Europe, 1/3 in North Europe, and 5/10 in the British isles have at least one of these mutations. Only 4 of these people probably actually had Red hair. Some of the others probably had Red Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-92212128867101765352015-08-02T09:59:46.389-07:002015-08-02T09:59:46.389-07:00When Dodecad's K12b values for West Eurasia ar...When Dodecad's K12b values for West Eurasia are forced onto a 2D MDS (using a method that turns the results from populations into a single points on a two-dimensional chart), then it looks something like this:<br /><br />http://i.imgur.com/c3u3gD2.png<br /><br />Very similar to a lot of the conventional PCA of West Eurasia, with some slight shift in the West Asian and European clines from theMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89994030779124391962015-08-02T08:07:27.872-07:002015-08-02T08:07:27.872-07:00@Martin Clifford Styan
Look at the plain facts. M...@Martin Clifford Styan <br />Look at the plain facts. Many of the oldest Kurgan finds in both Haak et al, and Allentoft et al, share the same ydna and or/snps autosomal qualities with the most ancient samples that have been tested to date from various regions in Siberia and Steppe as shown in K6 basal run. This includes Ust-Ishim- 45k+/- Ko1 Kosteniki 37k+/- and Ma1 Malta boy 24k+/-. In the case ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00239954589937094679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46390227756407818782015-08-02T07:01:20.398-07:002015-08-02T07:01:20.398-07:00Davidski,
Thank you for your detailed reply. You s...Davidski,<br />Thank you for your detailed reply. You seem to have given links to several things I would like to study in more detail when I have time.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18128296726906488883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-63095661043750441472015-08-02T06:26:26.643-07:002015-08-02T06:26:26.643-07:00Martin,
I'd say the reason Gedrosia shows up ...Martin,<br /><br />I'd say the reason Gedrosia shows up in some populations and not in others seems to mainly depend on two things: the level of shared ancestry with the Pakistani populations from the HGDP and demographic history.<br /><br />So, for instance, Western and Eastern Europeans are more or less symmetrically related to the Pakistanis. However, Eastern Europeans have gone through Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-85022074857000977842015-08-02T05:47:34.954-07:002015-08-02T05:47:34.954-07:00Thank you Dave! Fascinating. I never imagined that...Thank you Dave! Fascinating. I never imagined that Butovo would be R1a1. I hope we will soon see which yDNA(s) brought Combed Ware to Europe. N, Q or a surprise yDNA. Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50267568534754367282015-08-02T05:32:24.141-07:002015-08-02T05:32:24.141-07:00I would like to comment on the replies to my comme...I would like to comment on the replies to my comment.<br /><br />I think Davidski’s assessment: “It looks like Martin launched into this area straight from Dienekes and GEDmatch“, is more or less accurate. I have followed Dienekes’ blog for many years. He is now less active than he was a few years ago, and I am disappointed that he has not added analyses of the new ancient autosomal data to his Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18128296726906488883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23507982834890681402015-08-01T22:16:09.391-07:002015-08-01T22:16:09.391-07:00Karelia HG (and EHG in general) is certainly inter...Karelia HG (and EHG in general) is certainly intermediate between WHG and ANE at some level, but based on qpGraph models this doesn't look to be the result of recent mixture between WHG and ANE. In other words, all indications at this point are that EHG were at least in large part unadmixed. <br /><br />ADMIXTURE is simply forcing them into a specific model because there aren't enough Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-88936850607985650412015-08-01T22:01:27.368-07:002015-08-01T22:01:27.368-07:00Krefter, you say that "both his Y DNA and mtD...Krefter, you say that "both his Y DNA and mtDNA are probably from Siberia." Do you mean that we see in this Mesolithic Karelian the arrival of R1a1 from Russia to Europe? In any way, he is probably autosomally a mixture between Siberian Butovo and Baltic Kunda cultures as according to Eurogenes Steppe K10, he has 37% WHG, 48% Steppe, 13% Amerind and 1.5% Siberian. However, it is Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82491468091196827822015-08-01T18:29:17.758-07:002015-08-01T18:29:17.758-07:00Yes, from an R1a perspective, as current phylogeny...Yes, from an R1a perspective, as current phylogeny holds, it's undeniable;Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.com