tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post463799541764251551..comments2024-03-18T18:30:48.719-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: They came, they saw, and they mixedDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger219125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-91764495664319000832021-08-01T19:29:59.806-07:002021-08-01T19:29:59.806-07:00Re: Naxi/Yi - remember that the Dian culture of we...Re: Naxi/Yi - remember that the Dian culture of western Yunnan had strong links to Inner Asia, there being little physical barrier between western Yunnan, western Sichuan (historically Kham Tibet) and the Gansu corridor. There has long been speculation (though no real evidence I think) for a Yuezhi (Indo-European) migration southward towards Yunnan as well as westward (to the Oxus and Bactria).RangoonRhinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09226556785865405708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72104082116415190542019-06-09T18:02:03.300-07:002019-06-09T18:02:03.300-07:00J came with the CHG, right?J came with the CHG, right?Andrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30880733982714785022019-06-09T00:27:46.909-07:002019-06-09T00:27:46.909-07:00@Dragos
There probably were multiple migrations, s...@Dragos<br />There probably were multiple migrations, something unsampled seems to have influenced WHG.<br /><br />@JuanRivera<br />Perhaps Okunevo migrated east but its genetic impact must have been relatively small (which still fits the qpAdm result). If we look at uniparentals Okunevo's Y-DNA was R1b-L23/Z2103, Q-L56/L54 and N1c-B187, which are still around in lower frequencies near Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-73134149248448523662019-06-08T17:42:48.917-07:002019-06-08T17:42:48.917-07:00Ok I see if we include WSHG, it will come up model...Ok I see if we include WSHG, it will come up modelling EHG<br /><br />E.g. <br /><br />EHG (average)<br />AfontovaGora3:41.8%<br />Villabruna 27.8%<br />West_Siberia_N 26.2%<br />CHG 2.4%<br />Boncuklu_N 1.8%<br />Iran_N 0%<br />Natufian 0%<br /><br />Distance 5.5976%<br /><br /><br />Im still not very happy about using something younger to modelize an older; however, I see that might be Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15528467888689389792019-06-08T15:39:29.808-07:002019-06-08T15:39:29.808-07:00We all know that. We also find EHG either raw or v...We all know that. We also find EHG either raw or via steppe in all western N populations. Proto-steppe could work too. Furthermore, the earliest Para-Uralic speakers in Europe may not have had the Yangshao admixture later western Uralics have, perhaps only something Samoyedic/Evenk-like.E. Donovanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03539164032135376431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22243011456338448202019-06-08T14:41:10.677-07:002019-06-08T14:41:10.677-07:00Interesting ideas. The Russians have the earliest ...Interesting ideas. The Russians have the earliest arrival of Combed Ware, and from east of the Urals, I believe in the Volga-Kama region within centuries of the appearance of the Xinglongwa culture much further east, which they don't mention and simply describe this first wave as transient. There might be some chance N first arrived in Anatolia with Anatolian speakers, so its clades in modernE. Donovanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03539164032135376431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14080779446704970022019-06-08T14:17:40.801-07:002019-06-08T14:17:40.801-07:00@JuanRivera
Lacking a proper PC for doing AdmixToo...@JuanRivera<br />Lacking a proper PC for doing AdmixTools right now so hopefully someone else will take up the qpAdm, but I can't rule out the Magadan steppe admix, the best fits in the Sikora et al. supplement commonly offer either Afanasievo or Barcin_N on top of Kolyma and any Anatolian farmer couldn't have been brought so far by other means (even if it was some forest zone population Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23045365973159937982019-06-08T12:07:02.393-07:002019-06-08T12:07:02.393-07:00My point has been that Sidelkino cluster shares th...My point has been that Sidelkino cluster shares the same ancestry components with WSHG, otherwise the statistical qpAdm fit as WHG+WSHG would fail or be worse than WHG+AG3 fits.<br /><br />Back from Kale's qpAdm runs, the strongest evidence for extra WHG in for Karelia HG:<br /><br /><br />Karelia_HG<br /><br />pright<br />Barcin_N, Iran_N, Levant_N, Kotias, MA1, Anzick, ElMiron, GoyetQ116-1,Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-10290576905894312362019-06-08T11:21:46.155-07:002019-06-08T11:21:46.155-07:00@Shaikorth
"How come,..."
I completely...@Shaikorth<br /><br /><i>"How come,..."</i><br /><br />I completely lost in the structure of your sentences in this particular branch of our debate, so I have no idea what is compared to what there. That is how come. :/<br /><br /><i>"The point is that for that qpAdm fit to work Sidelkino has to share some of that BHG-related ancestry WSHG does (if it wouldn't the model would Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29136214266555681152019-06-08T10:35:32.756-07:002019-06-08T10:35:32.756-07:00"Sidelkino sharing more drift with the ENA re..."Sidelkino sharing more drift with the ENA related branch than WHG + WSHG is the intuitively expected result."<br /><br />How come, ENA is the branch with Dai, Onge etc. The point is that for that qpAdm fit to work Sidelkino has to share some of that BHG-related ancestry WSHG does (if it wouldn't the model would not work because Sidelkino would be more distant from Ami and Anzick Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-443295717629470222019-06-08T10:02:47.656-07:002019-06-08T10:02:47.656-07:00If you compare terms of who shares the most total ...<br /><i>If you compare terms of who shares the most total drift with WSHG or AG3:<br />MA1 closer to AG3<br />EHG a bit closer to WSHG<br />WHG much closer to WSHG<br />Paleoeuropeans (Kostenki, Vestonice etc.) slightly closer to WSHG"</i><br /><br />I can't see how this support your point. MA1 position is largely irrelevant to our discussion, EHG being a bit closer to WSHG is Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27603302607774901382019-06-08T09:02:11.364-07:002019-06-08T09:02:11.364-07:00@Slumbery
If you compare terms of who shares the m...@Slumbery<br />If you compare terms of who shares the most total drift with WSHG or AG3:<br />MA1 closer to AG3<br />EHG a bit closer to WSHG<br />WHG much closer to WSHG<br />Paleoeuropeans (Kostenki, Vestonice etc.) slightly closer to WSHG<br /><br />In the case of Sidelkino I said the fit would fail if WHG+WSHG mixture would share more drift with the ENA-related branch than Sidelkino, but the Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82656189419309195072019-06-08T07:58:09.383-07:002019-06-08T07:58:09.383-07:00@Shaikorth
But G25 nMontes picks up a very clear ...@Shaikorth<br /><br />But G25 nMontes picks up a very clear BHG ancestry in WSHG compared to AG3.<br /><br />"sample": "RUS_West_Siberia_N:Average",<br />"fit": 4.5637,<br />"RUS_AfontovaGora3": 84.17,<br />"RUS_Shamanka_N": 11.67,<br />"WHG": 4.17,<br /><br />"sample": "RUS_West_Siberia_N:Average",<br /> "fitSlumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-66450483529346728142019-06-08T07:33:21.544-07:002019-06-08T07:33:21.544-07:00@Slumbery
Baikal_N (minus about 10% ANE it has), ...@Slumbery<br /><br />Baikal_N (minus about 10% ANE it has), Ami and the non-ANE part of Native Americans are parts of the same deep clade so it would show in terms of shared drift if WHG+WSHG was more related to that branch than actual Sidelkino. QpAdm looks specifically at deep ancestry. Similarly a ghost branch of AG3 existing somewhere couldn't make WHG+WSHG work for Sidelkino in qpAdm.<brShaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54961071942977180232019-06-08T07:13:51.013-07:002019-06-08T07:13:51.013-07:00@Shaikorth
"Anzick and Ami are present in pR...@Shaikorth<br /><br /><i>"Anzick and Ami are present in pRight..."</i><br /><br />Arguably both of them are very distant from BaikalHG in their eastern ancestry while in the same time have some ancestry more western than BHG, but I have to admit I do not understand qpAdm enough to determine whether this is relevant to the argument.<br /><br /><br /><i>"We see that the distance is Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76906082134695845092019-06-08T06:35:30.334-07:002019-06-08T06:35:30.334-07:00@Slumbery
Anzick and Ami are present in pRight so ...@Slumbery<br />Anzick and Ami are present in pRight so if a WHG+WSHG mix had significant far eastern ancestry that Sidelkino didn't the qpAdm model would not work, and in any case would be worse than AG3+WHG (that's why Sidelkino WHG + Okunevo or something would fail). We see that the distance is better in scaled nMonte for Sidelkino with WSHG instead of AG3 too. The more recent EHG'sShaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-60676724434160446422019-06-08T06:16:30.366-07:002019-06-08T06:16:30.366-07:00Shaikorth said...
"However, WSHG might have b...Shaikorth said...<br /><i>"However, WSHG might have been around a while before Neolithic because EHG's actually seem to be easier to model as WHG+WSHG in qpAdm than as WHG+Afontova_Gora3"</i><br /><br />Isn't that because WSHG had EHG admixture though? <br /><br />For example in G25 nMonte:<br /><br />"sample": "RUS_West_Siberia_N:Average",<br /> "fitSlumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-62661485740032074512019-06-08T05:17:10.131-07:002019-06-08T05:17:10.131-07:00@Andrzejewski
"I'm pretty sure none of t...@Andrzejewski<br /><br />"I'm pretty sure none of them were Uraloid, that's for sure ;)"<br /><br />Here's one of them (male).<br />https://i.postimg.cc/05BB0YQB/Ekaterinovsky-Cape-skull.jpgDraft Dozenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17784818474230495863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-74906161071333578962019-06-08T03:46:23.760-07:002019-06-08T03:46:23.760-07:00@Dragos
Quite a few models for ancients involve sa...@Dragos<br />Quite a few models for ancients involve samples that are more recent than the population being modeled, like models for CHG which involve Iran_N. Some models commonly include moderns as sources: qpAdm fits modeling ASI in ancient samples, like the ones in the Narasimhan et al. preprint, use Onge or Han as a proxy.<br /><br />The important bit is that the fit shares a similar amount Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79519775664664904852019-06-08T03:35:55.444-07:002019-06-08T03:35:55.444-07:00@ Shaikorth
“”Sidelkino_EHG as Iron_Gates_HG+West...@ Shaikorth<br /><br />“”Sidelkino_EHG as Iron_Gates_HG+West_Siberia_N ”<br /><br />However Sidelkino (13 kya) is older than both of the former .<br />There’s EHG in Iron Gates. Shared ancestry in all 3 will produce nice stats, but is that model telling us something real ?Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34233073126319965252019-06-08T01:09:08.730-07:002019-06-08T01:09:08.730-07:00Sikora et al. has many alternative qpAdm fits in t...Sikora et al. has many alternative qpAdm fits in the supplementary data for most populations - many populations without Kolyma in the figure may actually have it. For AG_LBA Kolyma+Bichon+Barcin_N actually has a slightly better P-value than Devil's Gate+Afanasievo+EHG (although considering what we know of BA migrations in the eastern steppe belt it's likely that AG_LBA has Afanasievo or Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-3064950706570584382019-06-07T23:36:50.070-07:002019-06-07T23:36:50.070-07:00@JuanRivera
On the surface it seems unlikely that ...@JuanRivera<br />On the surface it seems unlikely that WSHG would be around in pure form in LBA South Siberia. Maybe AG_LBA is an Okunevo survivor?<br /><br />However, WSHG might have been around a while before Neolithic because EHG's actually seem to be easier to model as WHG+WSHG in qpAdm than as WHG+Afontova_Gora3<br /><br />For example, Kale did this test with Sidelkino:<br /><br /><br />Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18702811332520673222019-06-07T17:20:35.906-07:002019-06-07T17:20:35.906-07:00So, there's a basal R1 sample on the R1a proje...So, there's a basal R1 sample on the R1a project page now on FTDNA.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46641929549941961422019-06-07T16:28:42.508-07:002019-06-07T16:28:42.508-07:00@ Frank_N
When we factor in the reservoir effect o...@ Frank_N<br />When we factor in the reservoir effect of 700 years; then there’s no problem.<br />https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/lebyazhinka-burial-ground-middle-volga-region-russia-new-14c-dates-and-the-reservoir-effect/649B51FB774C7819B5CCAA95036CE6D7<br /><br />Also, the odd cattle or sheep bone doesn’t make the Caspian culture pastoralist (& it even might be Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78575523169037572112019-06-07T16:10:14.799-07:002019-06-07T16:10:14.799-07:00I'm pretty sure none of them were Uraloid, tha...I'm pretty sure none of them were Uraloid, that's for sure ;)Andrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.com