tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post5220875559027190245..comments2024-03-18T18:11:55.418-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Steppe invaders in the Bronze Age BalkansDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger281125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-38250648437891145572019-03-11T05:16:00.585-07:002019-03-11T05:16:00.585-07:00Yes, you have a point but we can assume R-Z93 was ...Yes, you have a point but we can assume R-Z93 was not frequent even in ancient times. I say so because haplogroups R1b,E-V13 and J2 are quite frequent in Greece and South Balkans and exist in area since Neolithic or Bronze Age. In addition south Italy has these ancient Greek haplogroups but R-Z93 is very uncommon in this place too. What I think is possible is that Indo-European settlers of chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09555294036370430426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-51765231371628558092019-03-10T19:54:04.285-07:002019-03-10T19:54:04.285-07:00@Chris
If Proto-Greeks and/or Thracians had R-Z93...@Chris<br /><br /><i>If Proto-Greeks and/or Thracians had R-Z93 why it is so uncommon nowadays?</i><br /><br />Maybe because they lived in the Balkans ~2,500 years ago, and a lot has changed there since then, with the elites being replaced several times over?<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11204942706559288532019-03-10T07:47:36.405-07:002019-03-10T07:47:36.405-07:00@Davidski
What I find starnge is that in modern Gr...@Davidski<br />What I find starnge is that in modern Greece and Balkans R-Z93 is very rare. If Proto-Greeks and/or Thracians had R-Z93 why it is so uncommon nowadays?chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09555294036370430426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-1538774004453347792019-03-10T05:53:39.259-07:002019-03-10T05:53:39.259-07:00The R1a-Z93 sample from Bulgaria is actually a ver...The R1a-Z93 sample from Bulgaria is actually a very good fit for the genome-wide (autosomal) steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans.<br /><br />And so far there's just one Y-chromosome haplogroup result from Mycenaean Greece, so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. Obviously, you can't make a judgment about the Mycenaean Y-chromosome gene pool based on one sample.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28077017855939877422019-03-10T05:46:37.502-07:002019-03-10T05:46:37.502-07:00Lazaridis paper suggests a steppe admixture on Myc...Lazaridis paper suggests a steppe admixture on Mycenenans. But Mycenenans also brought J2a arriving in Greece so I assume they had already mixed with neolithic populations outside Greece and the migrants who arrived to Greece were autosomally a mix of IE and pre-IE people and as a result different autosomally from the ancient Bulgaria r-z93 sample. Am I right?chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09555294036370430426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-81643913584398176762019-03-10T05:21:50.446-07:002019-03-10T05:21:50.446-07:00@Chris
Mycenaean samples have steppe ancestry ver...@Chris<br /><br />Mycenaean samples have steppe ancestry very similar to that of the R1a-Z93 sample that you're talking about. See here...<br /><br /><a href="https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/08/steppe-admixture-in-mycenaeans.html" rel="nofollow">Steppe admixture in Mycenaeans, lots of Caucasus admixture already in Minoans (Lazaridis et al. 2017)</a><br /><br />But ancient steppe ancestry Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83716589257924550092019-03-10T05:15:37.517-07:002019-03-10T05:15:37.517-07:00I am Greek and my haplogroup is a subclade of r1a-...I am Greek and my haplogroup is a subclade of r1a-z93. I found out that I share common segments with this sample on gedmtch. I don't think he is Myceneann because when Mycenenans arrived to Balkans they had mixed with neolithic populations and their autosomal results should be quite different. Proto-Thracians on the other hand is suggested that they migrated from pontic steppes (corded ware chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09555294036370430426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-666994693992013722017-05-26T23:19:09.747-07:002017-05-26T23:19:09.747-07:00Why do people assume early farmers were men? Is th...Why do people assume early farmers were men? Is there any evidence other than the assumption? I would suggest farming was invented by women as a takeover from the gathering part of hunting and gathering. We know that from Papua and Aboriginal Australia that women were re-planting myrniong, a tuber with a yellow flower, in order to get another crop. They were also doing the harvesting of seeds to Gardenershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09441652411644942295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55548419039145411772017-05-26T07:22:15.404-07:002017-05-26T07:22:15.404-07:00@ EastPole
I've managed to overlay SE Europe ...@ EastPole<br /><br />I've managed to overlay SE Europe PCA onto N Europe PCA. These lines start to look really good.<br /><br />https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5c96SyPJZ_M/WSg3X-W4sGI/AAAAAAAAAL8/NtsN3YerdacyTZ8OTJqCt8NvL0WmA4z4gCLcB/s1600/Baltic_SE_Europe_PCA.pngArzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10459843383682766479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89990451901601842692017-05-26T04:38:56.341-07:002017-05-26T04:38:56.341-07:00@ Alberto, hmmm... I think like Balkans_Chalcolith...@ Alberto, hmmm... I think like Balkans_Chalcolithic+Ukraine_N+CHG sounds like a bad fit for the outlier compared to Balkans_Chalcolithic+Samara_Eneolithic as it's more complicated.<br /><br />Though you mention Samara Culture, I think the outliers could also work as Balkans_Chalcolithic+Ukraine_Eneolithic, and Ukraine_Eneolithic may be able to fit as Ukraine_Neolithic+CHG+Anatolia_Neolithic Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44407000942164983582017-05-26T02:47:55.044-07:002017-05-26T02:47:55.044-07:00@Matt
Yes, many clines are possible in 2 dimensio...@Matt<br /><br />Yes, many clines are possible in 2 dimensions and with few and diverse samples.<br /><br />At 4500 BC in Bulgaria, do you think there is an alternative model?<br /><br /><em>Probably using pre-Yamnaya steppe cultures like Khavalynsk, but not actually a population as heavily CHG as Yamnaya.</em><br /><br />Yes, some pre-Khvalynsk (Samara culture?) moving to Bulgaria, even if no Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52077686251407718922017-05-26T02:03:52.437-07:002017-05-26T02:03:52.437-07:00Matt
"Or were Steppe Ancestry A speakers of ...Matt<br /><br />"Or were Steppe Ancestry A speakers of some Uralic like language, and only took on a late PIE dialect?"<br /><br />Yes, I need to be more careful with labels - when I say PIE i'm generally thinking of a semi-nomadic steppe herding culture rather than the language. So what i'm really saying is if steppe ancestry B (EHG+CHG) is from Yamnaya-like herders then is Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-16726036560506458222017-05-26T00:59:22.789-07:002017-05-26T00:59:22.789-07:00@ Alberto: At 4500 BC in Bulgaria, do you think th...@ Alberto: <i>At 4500 BC in Bulgaria, do you think there is an alternative model?</i> Probably using pre-Yamnaya steppe cultures like Khavalynsk, but not actually a population as heavily CHG as Yamnaya.<br /><br />Various clines are possible here though, purely on the basis of PC1 vs PC2. For instance why you could even model the Balkan Bronze Age as varying mixtures of the Chalcolithic outliers Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56409061351661138702017-05-26T00:45:14.730-07:002017-05-26T00:45:14.730-07:00Matt
"Anyone have any thoughts on why I2a2a1b...Matt<br />"Anyone have any thoughts on why I2a2a1b1 is extinct in the Balkans today and generally uncommon in Europe? Seems to have been gone by the late Bronze Age of the Balkans either also (y haplos G2, R1a, J2), when a richer and clearer signal of relatedness to Yamnaya proper shows up in the ADMIXTURE (supervised and unsupervised)."<br /><br />My thoughts are...<br /><br />1) ydna Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50875192836301209572017-05-26T00:21:21.719-07:002017-05-26T00:21:21.719-07:00Ric Hern said...
"I see everybody forgot abou...Ric Hern said...<br />"I see everybody forgot about Sredny Stog. When we look at the spread of animal domestication it clearly ends up first in Sredny Stog before Khvalynsk and Yamnaya."<br /><br />Just to repeat there's a later model (Ertobolle culture) of sedentary, pottery using wetlands HGs adopting animal husbandry from adjacent farmers.<br /><br />(the sedentary and pottery Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26671416404245181292017-05-26T00:14:21.002-07:002017-05-26T00:14:21.002-07:00Romulus said...
"According to the paper Varna...Romulus said...<br />"According to the paper Varna and Trypolie have 10% EHG but no CHG."<br /><br />I think people defining "steppe ancestry" as EHG + CHG obscures more than it reveals as unless i'm missing something there was clearly a time before they mixed when EHG was "steppe ancestry."<br /><br />If correct then there's two steppe ancestries:<br />- Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30393884857360355492017-05-26T00:02:54.279-07:002017-05-26T00:02:54.279-07:00Well, I'm just trying to respond to your comme...Well, I'm just trying to respond to your comment really. You talked about a cline from the Chalcolithic Balkans to Khavalynsk. I see no such cline if you're using the terms as they describe. That is all I'm doing by showing the clines, as I didn't want the erroneous idea that there was a Balkans Chalcolithic cline leading towards Khavalynsk to get repeated by a game of telephone.<Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84958000820622399162017-05-25T15:30:38.593-07:002017-05-25T15:30:38.593-07:00@Matt
I don't know what you're trying to ...@Matt<br /><br />I don't know what you're trying to demonstrate with those plots exactly, but obviously contacts between Khvalynsk and the Balkans, and specifically Varna, happened during the Chalcolithic.<br /><br />There may have been some contacts between the Balkans and Ukraine during the Neolithic, but that's obviously irrelevant to where people like Varna outlier got the steppe Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36233360283360523572017-05-25T14:26:32.157-07:002017-05-25T14:26:32.157-07:00@Matt
Thanks.
I'm really unconvinced you cou...@Matt<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br /><em>I'm really unconvinced you could use a Ukraine_Neolithic+Anatolia_Neolithic+CHG model or anything like it to explain the Balkans samples parsimoniously.</em><br /><br />Looking at the 3 Varna samples that seem to have some amount of CHG admixture (maybe some 10%?), then the difference between the 3 would be the amount of SHG-like admixture (or Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-45950878619259455442017-05-25T11:00:08.879-07:002017-05-25T11:00:08.879-07:00D-stats in the paper indicate that the shift betwe...D-stats in the paper indicate that the shift between the "Balkans Bronze Age" compared to Chalcolithic is strongest to EHG, then to Yamnaya, then WHG, then CHG last. I don't see a lot of evidence there at least, that the Balkans Bronze Age has a particular thrust of CHG related ancestry.<br /><br />Though this I think throws together what look like at least 4 clusters of individualsMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65038282291980040092017-05-25T03:55:34.135-07:002017-05-25T03:55:34.135-07:00@Davidski .
STOP!!
Alberto says "And CHG, w...@Davidski .<br /><br />STOP!! <br />Alberto says <i>"And CHG, we have Kumtepe6, 4600 BC, with CHG admixture. And Kumtepe is quite close to Varna, believe it or not."</i><br /><br />Now when I said KUM6 has my shulaveri because it had CHG admix, you flat out called me an Idiot. And I accepted. And said, ok, if KUM6 had no CHG admix than could not be my Shulaveri, and so I was being an Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90571545867606098192017-05-25T02:38:09.140-07:002017-05-25T02:38:09.140-07:00@ Dave
Read Morgunova. Khvalynsk dates after 42/4...@ Dave<br /><br />Read Morgunova. Khvalynsk dates after 42/4000 BC. <br />Mathieson et al need to update the dating on their Supp Data File. <br />Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36893919003260464262017-05-25T02:28:42.749-07:002017-05-25T02:28:42.749-07:00@Davidski
Forget the CHG/SHG fantasy. There's...@Davidski<br /><br /><em>Forget the CHG/SHG fantasy. There's no evidence for it. You just made it up.</em><br /><br />So there is no evidence for SHG-like presence in the Balkans (and Ukraine), from Mesolithic to Chalcolithic?<br /><br />And CHG, we have Kumtepe6, 4600 BC, with CHG admixture. And Kumtepe is quite close to Varna, believe it or not.<br /><br />In contrast, there is no evidence Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27664435328563394292017-05-25T02:10:07.354-07:002017-05-25T02:10:07.354-07:00@Rob
Yes. And why isn't the specific CHG/ EHG...@Rob<br /><br /><i>Yes. And why isn't the specific CHG/ EHG mix not found in the Mesolithic - Neolithic steppe either? In fact, why does it first appear in varna (4500 BC) before the Khvalynsk man (4000-3600 BC)?</i><br /><br />It's already found somewhere on the Caspian Steppe at 4500 BC. That's why the Balkans Chalcolithic cline runs from the Neolithic Balkans to the least admixed Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-69817914466861701092017-05-25T02:06:43.477-07:002017-05-25T02:06:43.477-07:00@Alberto
So probably according to you, the Ukrain...@Alberto<br /><br /><i>So probably according to you, the Ukraine_Eneolithic sample is a mix of EHG and Anatolia Neolithic, right?</i><br /><br />There's no cline to suggest what it is. Could be a lot of things apart from the obvious Ukraine_Neolithic.<br /><br /><i>How about you start considering 3 way admixtures?</i><br /><br />What makes you think I don't?<br /><br />Clines still exist Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.com