tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post6499590704419852993..comments2024-03-29T02:19:11.942-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: How did Y-haplogroup N1c get to Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov?Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55434277554044906432018-12-13T22:04:20.123-08:002018-12-13T22:04:20.123-08:00@Them meee
Just for clarification, how relevant c...@Them meee<br /><br /><i>Just for clarification, how relevant could Sintashta_MLBA_o1 be to later Uralics, if at all?</i><br /><br />It's hard to say. Take a look at the comments under that post.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-74734624376846672842018-12-13T21:55:11.454-08:002018-12-13T21:55:11.454-08:00@Davidski
Just for clarification, how relevant co...@Davidski<br /><br />Just for clarification, how relevant could Sintashta_MLBA_o1 be to later Uralics, if at all?Gabrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718136580023709390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65850410587932631732018-12-13T21:45:30.296-08:002018-12-13T21:45:30.296-08:00@Davidski
I see, thanks.@Davidski<br /><br />I see, thanks.Bob Floyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863468406651284016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50543284627898877382018-12-13T21:40:02.907-08:002018-12-13T21:40:02.907-08:00@Bob Floy
Sintashta_MLBA_o1 samples are in the Gl...@Bob Floy<br /><br />Sintashta_MLBA_o1 samples are in the Global25 datasheets, so they can be plotted and modeled in any which way.<br /><br />But yeah, I have featured them in a number of PCA. In the PCA in this post the Sintashta_MLBA_o1 samples are the two that I circled, plus the other two immediately below them (and just above Yamnaya). The two Sintashta samples just left of them are from Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56555113374478272832018-12-13T20:29:55.347-08:002018-12-13T20:29:55.347-08:00@Davidski
Goofy question, have you ever done a PC...@Davidski<br /><br />Goofy question, have you ever done a PCA or anything like that for Sintashta_MLBA_o1?Bob Floyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863468406651284016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29364381313553167042018-12-13T18:58:45.873-08:002018-12-13T18:58:45.873-08:00@ryukendo kendow
Also, great to see the evolution...@ryukendo kendow<br /><br /><i>Also, great to see the evolution of your views on Uralic, David.</i><br /><br />I don't think they've changed much. I don't expect Garino-Bor/Volosovo samples to be anything like Corded Ware or Steppe_MLBA, unless we're talking about the Sintashta outlier groups.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80237297397375331672018-12-13T18:52:02.241-08:002018-12-13T18:52:02.241-08:00ADMIXR, a package for simple one-liner ADMIXTOOLS ...<a href="https://twitter.com/fleventy5/status/1073192381959294976" rel="nofollow">ADMIXR, a package for simple one-liner ADMIXTOOLS directly from R</a><br /><br />Also, great to see the evolution of your views on Uralic, David.Ryukendo Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11588546655427153692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19101450230317352452018-12-13T11:47:34.693-08:002018-12-13T11:47:34.693-08:00@Them meee
Agreed.
@Toby_P
I4178 is not confirm...@Them meee<br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br />@Toby_P<br /><br />I4178 is not confirmed as R1b-U106. Alex Williamson,the owner of ytree.net, mentioned that he has not any confidence in calling I4178 as R1b-U106, he is not even sure this specific sample belongs to R-L51.<br /><br />''<br />I don't have any confidence in calling I4178 as R-U106 > Z18. There's only one read and it is aTesmoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03901983560016099052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56382643956766384402018-12-13T11:15:30.330-08:002018-12-13T11:15:30.330-08:00Coincidentally, the MBA Netherlands U106 also conn...Coincidentally, the MBA Netherlands U106 also connects there, with the post-Beaker changes. Some guy called 'Finn'' on AG posted a good entry about the Elp culture and its southeastern connections.Toby_Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13995615081666019081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50773564885650382842018-12-13T11:10:09.955-08:002018-12-13T11:10:09.955-08:00@ Tem Mee/ Tesmos
No I didnt udnerstand it to rea...@ Tem Mee/ Tesmos<br /><br />No I didnt udnerstand it to read that U106 or I1 necessarily came directly from Unetice, but during that period (the post Corded', 2200 ->) previously rare lineages came up, and it proposes some connections/ mechanisms why. You could be right that I1 is from FB/ TRB, but it hasnt turned up there so far AFAIK. IMO the earliest split of I1 is the Finnish branch, Toby_Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13995615081666019081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2573211598486212792018-12-13T09:50:49.784-08:002018-12-13T09:50:49.784-08:00@Tesmos
True, but U106 isn’t associated with East...@Tesmos<br /><br />True, but U106 isn’t associated with Eastern IE either. And somethings got to explain that northwest European pull.<br /><br />That said, there is a certain presence of P312 and seemingly unique subclades in Germanic peoples, so that is also part of the puzzle. <br /><br />Germanic seems intermediary but it has R1a-M417 and clear Corded Ware ancestry so I don’t think it’s very Gabrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718136580023709390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23411385643187814152018-12-13T07:39:01.063-08:002018-12-13T07:39:01.063-08:00@Them meee
Sure, there is overwhelming evidence t...@Them meee<br /><br />Sure, there is overwhelming evidence that P312 is strongly associated with Western IE, based on the results of Bell Beakers and it's successors (and R1a being associated with Eastern IE). However, this cannot be said for U106 as there is still no sign of U106 in CWC and BB, but it does show pop up in the Nordic Late Neolithic, Czech Unetice and Bronze Age Netherlands Tesmoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03901983560016099052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-74633854311778485432018-12-13T07:30:52.469-08:002018-12-13T07:30:52.469-08:00@Anthony Haken,
"Like Davidski said the Volo...@Anthony Haken,<br /><br />"Like Davidski said the Volosovo/Garino-Bor cultures were candidates for PU well before aDNA. This is based on the need for Indo-Iranian loanwords in PU. The Tarand graves are connected to these cultures by the Netted Ware culture which is the bridge between Estonia and the Volga-Kama you are looking for."<br /><br />I do agree, I have not disagreed.<br /><br Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65151748606541727422018-12-13T06:55:08.086-08:002018-12-13T06:55:08.086-08:00@M. Myllylä
Like Davidski said the Volosovo/Garin...@M. Myllylä<br /><br />Like Davidski said the Volosovo/Garino-Bor cultures were candidates for PU well before aDNA. This is based on the need for Indo-Iranian loanwords in PU. The Tarand graves are connected to these cultures by the Netted Ware culture which is the bridge between Estonia and the Volga-Kama you are looking for.<br /><br />Also I know without aDNA it isn’t too relevant but L550 andAnthony Hankenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08558813696890276719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54642531530491869032018-12-13T05:57:12.429-08:002018-12-13T05:57:12.429-08:00@Davidski
"This is when N-L1026 starts repla...@Davidski<br /><br />"This is when N-L1026 starts replacing the R1a-M417 in the region, one way or another. So the recent expansions of various N-L106 subclaces in the East Baltic and Fennoscandia as inferred from modern DNA aren't all that relevant."<br /><br />I agree every word. This explains my lack of interest in ydna haplogroups without simultaneous auDna support.Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25241942072774452502018-12-13T03:23:15.353-08:002018-12-13T03:23:15.353-08:00Also sorry for posting again, but forgot to includ...Also sorry for posting again, but forgot to include this in previous post, here's an image of modern N clade distribution among various populations.<br /><br />https://imgur.com/a/fSPuAkAMouthfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07375870373758007570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-20640645644846842812018-12-13T03:16:14.779-08:002018-12-13T03:16:14.779-08:00Indeed it can, but the TMRCA of Baltic clades spec...Indeed it can, but the TMRCA of Baltic clades specifically Latvian and Lithuanian ones coincides with the N entry into there which is Iron age, which we know was absent during Bronze age.<br /><br />Mouthfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07375870373758007570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49362694457869902302018-12-13T03:11:01.516-08:002018-12-13T03:11:01.516-08:00Modern DNA can be very misleading indeed.
Modern DNA can be very misleading indeed.<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-3025277586699230672018-12-13T03:07:06.401-08:002018-12-13T03:07:06.401-08:00@M. Myllylä "Actually the Baltic branch, L550...@M. Myllylä "Actually the Baltic branch, L550, is older in Finland than in Baltic countries."<br /><br />Basal is found in Swede and in general Baltic N1c falls under N-L1025 which is downstream from N-L550.<br /><br />https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-L550/Mouthfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07375870373758007570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72230155943901337162018-12-13T02:59:01.870-08:002018-12-13T02:59:01.870-08:00@M. Myllylä
We already know that ancient DNA show...@M. Myllylä<br /><br />We already know that ancient DNA shows an expansion of N-L1026 into Estonia during the Iron Age at the latest, along with the Tarand grave culture.<br /><br />This is when N-L1026 starts replacing the R1a-M417 in the region, one way or another. So the recent expansions of various N-L106 subclaces in the East Baltic and Fennoscandia as inferred from modern DNA aren't allDavidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30428358036293942042018-12-13T02:44:04.225-08:002018-12-13T02:44:04.225-08:00@them mee,
is it that L1026 includes Karelian and...@them mee,<br /><br />is it that L1026 includes Karelian and Savonian branches? If so, the explanation of Finnish high frequences is so called Savonian expansion, which happened only 500 yearsago.<br /><br />http://weallfinland.fi/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/24.11.2016-Markku-Mattila.pdf<br /><br />Actually the Baltic branch, L550, is older in Finland than in Baltic countries. I am not expert in Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23127158268472150202018-12-13T02:27:52.497-08:002018-12-13T02:27:52.497-08:00@Tesmos
Yeah, that said I’m skeptical of any R1b-...@Tesmos<br /><br />Yeah, that said I’m skeptical of any R1b-L151 in Corded Ware which is almost totally R1a-M417 and looking very Eastern IE while Germanics seem a bit more Western so R1b-L151/U106 May have something to do with that.Gabrielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17718136580023709390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-17493336632393281222018-12-13T02:27:11.043-08:002018-12-13T02:27:11.043-08:00Them meee,
Even the frequencies of subclades of N...Them meee,<br /><br />Even the frequencies of subclades of N-L1026 (TMRCA 4,800 [95% CI 4,100 <-> 5,500] ybp) appear to differ between Finns and Estonians as I have noted previously in this comment thread:<br /><br />N-VL29<br />44/111 = 39.6% Lithuanians<br />33/86 = 38.4% Latvians<br /><b>65/235 = 27.7% Estonians</b><br />24/132 = 18.2% Russians (Pskov)<br />6/35 = 17.1% Saami (Sweden)<brEbizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-31199299854110124062018-12-13T02:24:13.994-08:002018-12-13T02:24:13.994-08:00@them mee,
forget to mention that northern Estoni...@them mee,<br /><br />forget to mention that northern Estonians get usually 20-40% Finnish ancesry in autosomal tests, made by third parties like 23andme. There is of course explanations for certain unreliability, but f.ex. 23andme tells that their tests are valid only in genealogical time frame (max. 500 years).Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72319369710961691042018-12-13T02:09:54.462-08:002018-12-13T02:09:54.462-08:00@them mee
"Also isn’t R1a significantly more...@them mee<br /><br />"Also isn’t R1a significantly more common in Estonia than Finland, and viceversa for I1? Similarly aren’t Estonians way more Baltic-like? Wonder what that means for that Finnish migration. If I’m missing any details (maybe they left or something) then feel free to correct me or add something."<br /><br />The Finns are less Baltic like because of more Scandinavian Maurihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03670078523265515878noreply@blogger.com