tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post6523661672842294682..comments2024-03-18T18:30:48.719-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: 101 ancient Eurasian genomes (Allentoft et al. 2015)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger728125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27245128580403582652015-06-23T17:20:54.750-07:002015-06-23T17:20:54.750-07:00@simon_w
Colin, I already pointed out the main fl...@simon_w<br /><br /><i>Colin, I already pointed out the main flaw in your argument: It rests on the assumption that modern central Europeans have more Corded Ware ancestry than modern Northwest Europeans.</i><br /><br />Its one of the more reliable assumption about the demographic history we do have. It simply is obvious that belarusians and czechs have more CW heritage. <br /><br /><i>But sincepnuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46790828562336227642015-06-23T09:24:02.552-07:002015-06-23T09:24:02.552-07:00Colin, I already pointed out the main flaw in your...Colin, I already pointed out the main flaw in your argument: It rests on the assumption that modern central Europeans have more Corded Ware ancestry than modern Northwest Europeans. This is extremely far from obvious. And so, since this has not been established, your argument rests on shaky feet. You might perhaps argue that the higher incidence of R1a in modern central Europeans proves their Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76663890980370112972015-06-22T13:08:57.407-07:002015-06-22T13:08:57.407-07:00@simon_w
These were the reasons why I consider yo...@simon_w<br /><br /><i>These were the reasons why I consider your argument unnecessary. </i><br /><br />Simon, we cannot have any fruitful discussion if you continue to ignore basic logic. <br /><br />If a population has a much lower level of EHG than modern NW Europeans then they cannot be the primary source for EHG in NW Europeans. AT THE SAME TIME If a population has ample EHG but contributes pnuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14513519381811589122015-06-21T09:04:27.509-07:002015-06-21T09:04:27.509-07:00I'd want to add more: for being sure that ther...I'd want to add more: for being sure that there aren't mutations amongst the P312* subclades, it'd need that the samples were tested from YElite or Full Genome and not from Big Y. I have had about 300 no calls out of 72000 snps, whereas Big Y has usually 12000 no calls.<br />Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78991326841709913492015-06-21T08:55:20.484-07:002015-06-21T08:55:20.484-07:00@ Grey
I was referring to this hypothesis: "...@ Grey<br /><br />I was referring to this hypothesis: "Just to add a point on one specific near-Italian R1b clade. If heavy rainfall causes acid soil (which is apparently the reason for acid soil along the Atlantic coast) then if you look at a map of euro rainfall then as well as the Atlantic coast there is also a peak around the Alps which maps quite neatly onto S28 so did copper age AlpineGioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21720037478904909162015-06-21T08:39:56.359-07:002015-06-21T08:39:56.359-07:00@Davidski
Thanks for the clarification/info. That...@Davidski<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification/info. That's good news indeed. PFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13780789381709373839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36936485382826128572015-06-21T08:10:48.453-07:002015-06-21T08:10:48.453-07:00@Simon_W
"why didn't the R1b-P312 people...@Simon_W<br /><br />"why didn't the R1b-P312 people manage to overwhelm Hungary in much the same way as they are presumed to have overwhelmed Germany"<br /><br />Speaking just to this bit if the population density of the original population around the edges of LBK was lower than in the core then that might be a factor - easier to swamp a smaller population.<br /><br />.<br /><br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56504819494075644612015-06-21T06:25:00.155-07:002015-06-21T06:25:00.155-07:00I'd say, if R1b-P312 is from Yamnaya but not f...I'd say, if R1b-P312 is from Yamnaya but not from Corded Ware, then it must be from the Hungarian Yamnaya. I'd say that's still a possibility I can't rule out. But this would entail that the R1b-P312 people reduced the Samara Yamnaya affinity rather than increasing it. Which would mean that the Samara Yamnaya affinity in Northwest Europeans is at least to a considerable part from Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-88498099189181496502015-06-21T06:10:48.094-07:002015-06-21T06:10:48.094-07:00@ Grey
I don't know who you are (here is plent...@ Grey<br />I don't know who you are (here is plenty of nicknames and many multiple), but when I wrote on Anthrogenica I didn't like alan's novels, even though he is a good person, nothing to do with many others there. Unfortunately your hypotheses are unverifiable, and science is done with verifications. There are many links I spoke about too, for instance those between the Alps and Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18112054492025538092015-06-21T05:51:20.373-07:002015-06-21T05:51:20.373-07:00Gioiello
"and even about the miners or the c...Gioiello<br /><br />"and even about the miners or the copper smiths I think that it is a wrong solution, otherwise why many varied R1b1-L389*, many R-V88*, many R-M269/PF7562*, etc. are present in Italy?"<br /><br />Yes I think the story is one of tribal migrations combined with small groups running ahead of the main advance. If the idea is correct then the regions with lots of clades Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2038245203753362132015-06-21T05:21:35.391-07:002015-06-21T05:21:35.391-07:00@ Grey
I thank you, but unfortunately of my 10000 ...@ Grey<br />I thank you, but unfortunately of my 10000 letters written a few have been read and are at disposal of everyone. Began Rootsweb to delete the most part of my more than thousand written ones during 2007. After, after having banned me, also DNA-Forums banned itself. Now also eng.molgen is out (I don't know why) where there are more that 1500 letters of mine. Of course I printed all Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19939101195573411362015-06-21T05:18:47.534-07:002015-06-21T05:18:47.534-07:00"But does it really stick when you say that r..."But does it really stick when you say that r1b was eastern yamnaya but only represented a minority of western yamnaya and their descendants the CW folk, but that this minority r1b lineage flourished like crazy when it got to central europe."<br /><br />It might stick if you incorporate the flukiness of physical geography e.g. the massive copper field around Kargaly.<br /><br />Whether Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-88065894530195746812015-06-21T04:34:02.453-07:002015-06-21T04:34:02.453-07:00If modern central Europeans have Corded Ware ances...If modern central Europeans have Corded Ware ancestry because they live where the Corded Ware had been, then Bronze Age Central Europeans from the same area are likely to have been more Corded Ware ancestry, because they are chronologically inbetween the Corded Ware and modern Central Europeans.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-71118494871217885942015-06-21T04:33:34.194-07:002015-06-21T04:33:34.194-07:00Gioiello
"I'd agree completely with you ...Gioiello<br /><br />"I'd agree completely with you if the point of departure were Italy."<br /><br />Could be; I don't have a strong view where it originated other than I think it's likely it will be somehow connected to the spread of copper working - possibly a quite peaceful process in itself as small groups spread along the trade networks but possibly acting as a catalystGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7031556600026562002015-06-21T04:30:59.827-07:002015-06-21T04:30:59.827-07:00Also, regarding your argument, it's logically ...Also, regarding your argument, it's logically sound, but I doubt the premisses. I don't find it obvious that Central Europeans in general have more Corded Ware ancestry than Northwestern Europeans. The Corded Ware didn't migrate to Britain, that's right, but later cultures from precisely the area where the Corded Ware had been, did.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-4381298360771660722015-06-21T04:05:18.412-07:002015-06-21T04:05:18.412-07:00@ Colin
The argument is pointless, because the si...@ Colin<br /><br />The argument is pointless, because the situation with post-Corded Ware LN/BA Central Europeans is complex enough. Some Bronze Age groups had more Yamnaya ancestry than the German Bell Beakers, others had less. Did those who had more have this from Corded Ware or were they remnants of your presumed Yamnaya-Bell Beakers who must have migrated through Central Europe? A priori bothSimon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82749931345955487222015-06-21T02:18:25.207-07:002015-06-21T02:18:25.207-07:001) To offend who thinks different is a sign of str...1) To offend who thinks different is a sign of strength or weakness?<br />2) Won't be the aDNA to decide who is right and who is wrong?<br />3) From YFull it is clear that R-CTS7556 was born in Western Europe from a brother clade of mine (R-Z2110) and expanded Eastwards being the ancestor of all the Eastern R-CTS9219 etc etc<br />4) Warning that the muleteer becomes the mule... non illa Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54019938061480181342015-06-21T01:06:56.093-07:002015-06-21T01:06:56.093-07:00@Tone
Not going to mock you (come on, have you no...@Tone<br /><br />Not going to mock you (come on, have you not seen the whackos who are into this stuff?), but no, that is not a parsimonious option when you take all the relevant information into account.<br /><br />L23 is calculated to be a good deal younger than that. Even if the dating is wrong, in your scenario there ought to be long branches (many mutations) between L23, having spread way capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18872554144724063152015-06-20T19:07:46.928-07:002015-06-20T19:07:46.928-07:00You can all mock me if you want, because admittedl...You can all mock me if you want, because admittedly I know little about this stuff:<br /><br />But using Occam's Razor, isn't the simplest solution to the problem of the origins of R1B in NW Europe simply that R1B (L23) was always there? The reason Scotts (for example) show a high affinity with Yamna people is because they (the Scotts) share recent ancestry with the natives on the Tonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12409244347762896894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-379691249523855792015-06-20T16:27:20.255-07:002015-06-20T16:27:20.255-07:00Simon W
About BB, pastoralism etc
Your comments ...Simon W <br />About BB, pastoralism etc <br />Your comments are correct. I didn't have the exact dates on me, but we're referring to same paper.!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27159939161730365272015-06-20T12:27:31.431-07:002015-06-20T12:27:31.431-07:00@Simon_w
There's no point in taking modern ce...@Simon_w<br /><br /><i>There's no point in taking modern central Europeans into account and estimates about degrees of true Corded Ware ancestry based on archeological links.</i><br /><br />Care to explain this? I gave a logically sound argument. If my assumptions are correct then the conclusion follows. It almost sounds as if you are trying to magically ignore the potential truth of this pnuadhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11902973565704018427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80639605562410628952015-06-20T10:09:56.239-07:002015-06-20T10:09:56.239-07:00@ Colin
I think your whole argument is flawed. Wh...@ Colin<br /><br />I think your whole argument is flawed. What the ancient DNA evidence has shown is this: German Corded Ware had lots of Yamnaya ancestry, much more than modern Northwest Europeans. And all other central European LN/BA cultures had much less Yamnaya ancestry than the Corded Ware. But from central European Bell Beaker you want to derive modern Northwest Europeans. Maybe you don&#Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80985379542884547992015-06-20T09:01:18.996-07:002015-06-20T09:01:18.996-07:00@ Mike, Chad
About three years ago there was a pa...@ Mike, Chad<br /><br />About three years ago there was a paper on Dienekes' blog which dated this pastoral stage in Britain more exactly. The decline in farming started already before 3000 BC, perhaps 3300 BC and from 3000 BC on it was already fully down. And this lasted till the Middle Bronze Age, which started perhaps 1500, 1600 BC. One thing is crystal clear: The start of this pastoral Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-85450490186202613902015-06-20T05:27:39.490-07:002015-06-20T05:27:39.490-07:00@ Grey
"Maybe some clades by sea to Iberia an...@ Grey<br />"Maybe some clades by sea to Iberia and then northwards from there but some by other routes e.g. via Rhine to Holland then expanding from there north and south":<br />I'd agree completely with you if the point of departure were Italy. Of course that has to be proved or disproved from other data (and I always left open the possibility that R1b may have come to Italy from Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-61666398992674428262015-06-20T04:17:45.549-07:002015-06-20T04:17:45.549-07:00"FRom this data it is probable that R1b is co..."FRom this data it is probable that R1b is coming up from Iberia."<br /><br />Maybe some clades by sea to Iberia and then northwards from there but some by other routes e.g. via Rhine to Holland then expanding from there north and south.<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.com