tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post708317354322499261..comments2024-03-28T11:48:42.197-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: An exploration of distance-based models of language relationships with a special focus on Indo-European (Kozintsev 2018)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50152292753002031302018-07-02T10:59:58.951-07:002018-07-02T10:59:58.951-07:00Don't read too much into the results: this ent...Don't read too much into the results: this entire study is distance-based instead of ancestral state reconstruction based (says so right in the name). As such it will likely latch on to spurious similarities instead of real etymological connections, and also fail to usefully root anything at all. This explains e.g. the bizarre neighbor-joining tree in Fig. 5, which shows Indo-European as J Pystynenhttp://protouralic.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-5337594104295155702018-06-25T07:55:21.520-07:002018-06-25T07:55:21.520-07:00@Groo Salugg
Okunevo's N1c is apparently this...@Groo Salugg<br /><br />Okunevo's N1c is apparently this: https://yfull.com/tree/N-B187/ , a branch formed considerably before Okunevo and its predecessor cultures. Looks too old and diverged for Uralic or Indo-European timeframes. Besides a few Turkic tribes and Okunevo itself it's been found in one of the later (autosomally Okunevo-admixed) Baikal HG's suggesting Okunevo spread eastShaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15449497459657545752018-06-25T06:45:50.491-07:002018-06-25T06:45:50.491-07:00@EastPole
I think the steppe ancestry of Uralics i...@EastPole<br />I think the steppe ancestry of Uralics is actually Steppe_MLBA (75% Yamna, 25% EEF), rather than pure Yamna, is that correct?<br />The similariies between IE and Uralic are indeed deep and striking, but there is very few of them. There are orders of magnitude more features where IE and Uralic are completely different.<br />Overall it looks rather like an IE influence on Uralic thenGroo Salugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17401595081003541313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-90909844581682826722018-06-24T03:46:31.445-07:002018-06-24T03:46:31.445-07:00Old Europe / Ric Hern
tyOld Europe / Ric Hern<br /><br />tyGreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-38279345767728172362018-06-23T11:14:14.249-07:002018-06-23T11:14:14.249-07:00Shaikorth said,
"Re: Tarim, R1b in more sout...Shaikorth said,<br /><br />"Re: Tarim, R1b in more southern regions of Central Asia may not be Afanasievo-derived. PH155 at least is found in Uyghurs and its further distribution doesn't fit Afanasievo."<br /><br />Another subclade of R1b in which I am interested is R-L23 (formed 6400 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp) > R-Z2103 (TMRCA 5500 ybp)> R-Z2106 (TMRCA 5300 ybp) > R-CTS8966 (Ebizurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16925110639823856429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-31888183072194561192018-06-23T08:43:14.599-07:002018-06-23T08:43:14.599-07:00@ Grey
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Mo...@ Grey<br /><br />https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_MountainsRic Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18423693122831893222018-06-23T08:10:45.587-07:002018-06-23T08:10:45.587-07:00@ Grey
There area also Mountainous terrain in th...@ Grey <br /><br />There area also Mountainous terrain in the Crimea. Like I said before the Mouflon Sheep which are Mountain dwellers became extinct in the Crimea only 3000 years ago.Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30359380189194571892018-06-23T05:30:26.288-07:002018-06-23T05:30:26.288-07:00Grey
You forgot
Carpathian
Alps Grey<br /><br /><br />You forgot <br /><br />Carpathian <br />Alps old europehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11527452056485058148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-16769560468752471212018-06-23T02:35:36.489-07:002018-06-23T02:35:36.489-07:00so *if* the near-mountain thing is correct the cur...so *if* the near-mountain thing is correct the current candidate list would be:<br />caucasus<br />south of black/caspian seas (zagros etc)<br />balkans<br />urals<br />tien shan<br />altai<br />?Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-32283136336282834332018-06-23T00:36:19.824-07:002018-06-23T00:36:19.824-07:00Maybe some connection to Uralic ?
http://science....Maybe some connection to Uralic ?<br /><br />http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/05/08/science.aar7711Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27730175895816536312018-06-22T22:50:54.485-07:002018-06-22T22:50:54.485-07:00How many actual Tocharian remains were tested ? No...How many actual Tocharian remains were tested ? None sofar so how can we be sure ? Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22374613300507300462018-06-22T21:36:14.992-07:002018-06-22T21:36:14.992-07:00@Groo Salugg, Eastpole
Okunevo and Neolithic/B...@Groo Salugg, Eastpole<br /> Okunevo and Neolithic/BA Western Baikal region apparently do not have the N-L1026 lineages found in all Uralic speaking populations and Balts so in a genetic sense they're poor fits unless matrilineal migrations spread the language.<br /><br />Re: Tarim, R1b in more southern regions of Central Asia may not be Afanasievo-derived. PH155 at least is found in Shaikorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04468485423355664299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42643017554756692442018-06-22T12:45:34.606-07:002018-06-22T12:45:34.606-07:00@ EastPole
Tocharian share Proto-Indo-European ...@ EastPole <br /><br />Tocharian share Proto-Indo-European Archaisms with Celtic, Italic and Hittite and not with Indo-Iranian,Slavic and Baltic, plus Tocharian was apparently a Centum Language and not Satem. How do you explain this ? <br /><br />We see R1b among the Uyghurs. Did Tocharian speakers migrate into the Tarim Basin from the East(Mongolia) and replace or admix with some of the R1a Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-81709411510041009042018-06-22T09:09:22.101-07:002018-06-22T09:09:22.101-07:00@Groo Salugg
“I think ProtoUralic comes from Okune...@Groo Salugg<br />“I think ProtoUralic comes from Okunevo”<br /><br />“Okunevo people could therefore be a remnant paleo-Siberian population with possible Afanasievo input, as suggested by the presence of the R1b1a1a2a subhaplogroup in one individual.”<br /><br />https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23607<br /><br />They also say that Afanasievo has no link with Tarim Basin and EastPolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385485387444006342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83962352305575275522018-06-22T06:12:21.523-07:002018-06-22T06:12:21.523-07:00@EastPole
- RISE98 for example
- CWC from before t...@EastPole<br />- RISE98 for example<br />- CWC from before the female mediated EEF admixture are autosomaly identical to Yamna<br />- CWC is just a Yamna flavor and nothing really hints at these speaking different language families<br />- spread of Uralic is a post-Yamna phenomenon<br /><br />@EastPole after rethinking<br />The European<->East Asian look forms a gradient, not a split.<br />Groo Salugghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17401595081003541313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83652792869956633172018-06-21T23:52:34.217-07:002018-06-21T23:52:34.217-07:00@Ric Hern
Don’t forget about very powerful Uralic ...@Ric Hern<br />Don’t forget about very powerful Uralic steppe tribes like Hungarians for example.<br />Look at the distribution of Altaic languages:<br /><br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Linguistic_map_of_the_Altaic%2C_Turkic_and_Uralic_languages_%28en%29.png<br /><br />They all came from the steppe. The question is from which part of the steppe?<br /><br />Turkic people EastPolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385485387444006342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59412032481733602652018-06-21T21:32:57.986-07:002018-06-21T21:32:57.986-07:00There seem to be a probable ancient connection bet...There seem to be a probable ancient connection between Yukagir, Uralic and Indo-European but this is also a fringe theory. <br /><br />However seeing the oldest Y-DNA Haplogroup R was found near Lake Baikal (Mal'ta Buret Culture) there could have been some sort of linguistic contact or common origin.<br /><br />However we do not know if this faint similarities could have been transfered via Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-22999653729314187782018-06-21T10:59:03.227-07:002018-06-21T10:59:03.227-07:00Unfortunately the results seem fairly meaningless....Unfortunately the results seem fairly meaningless.<br /><br />Lexicostatistics is an extremely iffy business in any situation, as it only works in specific circumstances, and its basic assumptions are known to be wrong.<br /><br />But to the extent that lexicostatistics can be useful, it's useful when you know you're dealing with related languages, and you're fairly confident that youwastrelhttp://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49101639321744736582018-06-21T10:13:26.154-07:002018-06-21T10:13:26.154-07:00It could be that several Sister Branches of a Step...It could be that several Sister Branches of a Steppe Language formed during the dry periods when some Steppe people moved North and others South admixing with Northern and Southern Populations and then recombined during the Wet period to form Proto-Indo-European before the big migration....<br /><br />We simply do not know how many different Mesolithic Steppe Languages contributed towards the Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59683015617808282392018-06-21T09:34:26.588-07:002018-06-21T09:34:26.588-07:00@ EastPole
I see what you say but could it not a...@ EastPole <br /><br />I see what you say but could it not also mean that the Proto-Indo-European which entered Uralic was transfered via the female line especially when looking at MtDNA Haplogroup U5a ? <br /><br />Remember that both R1a and R1b were present on the Steppe at +-8000 BCE and in Khvalynsk. There were several Cold Dry periods on the Steppe from +-10 000 BCE onwards. The Steppe was Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21304360572201705272018-06-21T03:12:13.989-07:002018-06-21T03:12:13.989-07:00"significantly closer to Uralic than to any o..."significantly closer to Uralic than to any of the language families south of the Caucasus"<br /><br />if correct this might counter the argument that PIE was originally a mountain or near-mountain language<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68693210438578857712018-06-21T01:34:43.564-07:002018-06-21T01:34:43.564-07:00@Dmytro
“So you might rethink your answer.”
I can...@Dmytro<br />“So you might rethink your answer.”<br /><br />I can only present my way of thinking. I am speculating and not claiming to be right. Would very much appreciate learning about other ideas.<br />I believe from my own experience that IE is more related to Uralic than to other language families. This seems to be confirmed by Kozintsev's results.<br />Four genetic components EastPolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385485387444006342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7636467051041629152018-06-20T06:15:02.014-07:002018-06-20T06:15:02.014-07:00"I am not aware of any Yamnaya Y-DNA in CWC.&..."I am not aware of any Yamnaya Y-DNA in CWC."<br /><br />Most Yamna territory remains genetically unexplored re aDNA. I have no doubt that a lot of R1a will emerge.<br />But we know in any case that autosomally CWC and Yamna are very close<br />And Y-DNA constitutes a miserly portion of total genetic identity anyway.<br /><br />So you might rethink your answer. <br /><br />Dmytrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08494390634041394412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-54227874392257639522018-06-20T04:39:24.467-07:002018-06-20T04:39:24.467-07:00@Ric Hern
“Can you remind us how much Yamnaya lik...@Ric Hern <br />“Can you remind us how much Yamnaya like was Corded Ware ?”<br /><br />I am not aware of any Yamnaya Y-DNA in CWC.<br />EastPolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02385485387444006342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-674207676901167662018-06-20T04:30:09.390-07:002018-06-20T04:30:09.390-07:00Here's the direct link to the freely available...Here's the direct link to the freely available version of the paper...<br /><br /><a href="https://www.academia.edu/36871905/On_Certain_Aspects_of_Distance-based_Models_of_Language_Relationships_with_Reference_to_the_Position_of_Indo-European_among_other_Language_Families_2018_" rel="nofollow">On Certain Aspects of Distance-based Models of Language Relationships, with Reference to the Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.com