tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post7368753003296595232..comments2024-03-28T02:40:18.114-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Copper & Bronze Age genomes from northern SpainDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger403125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-56726981922564460792016-10-25T13:38:12.454-07:002016-10-25T13:38:12.454-07:00@ Astur Celtico
"I am from Buenos Aires, Arg...@ Astur Celtico<br /><br />"I am from Buenos Aires, Argentina, can someone tell me where or wich sarious Lab. can i do the genetic mtDNA analysis please?"<br /><br />For what I know the cheapest and most reliable test about the mt is done from www.yseq.net<br />I think that it is the best to do an FMS, i.e. the test of the whole mitochondrion, rather than HVRI and II.<br />Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79641815850170626202016-10-25T12:20:54.805-07:002016-10-25T12:20:54.805-07:00Hello everybody
I am from Buenos Aires, Argentina...Hello everybody<br /><br />I am from Buenos Aires, Argentina, can someone tell me where or wich sarious Lab. can i do the genetic mtDNA analysis please?<br /><br />my e-mail: nueve70@hotmail.com<br /><br />Very hankfulAsturcelticohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04281572665427275866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75500783425554464812015-10-02T07:22:12.590-07:002015-10-02T07:22:12.590-07:00ANE may indeed have been present in parts of West ...ANE may indeed have been present in parts of West Asia at an early date. But its complete absence in early farmers from Europe and western and central Anatolia limits the possibilities.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2146697513822775202015-09-29T02:03:34.627-07:002015-09-29T02:03:34.627-07:00@Simon: or again it is possible that the varied AN...@Simon: or again it is possible that the varied ANE degrees of affinity in West Asia represent an structure of the region in the Meso-Neolithic area. <br /><br />Ma1 and AG are too old to be necessarily "recent" (Metal Ages') influences: they can be older. Also this Paleosiberian population was related by origins to West Asia, South Asia and Europe in at least a double way: (1) the Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-77765353573700634532015-09-28T23:30:42.711-07:002015-09-28T23:30:42.711-07:00I'm quite convinced that there was also an ANE...I'm quite convinced that there was also an ANE source radiating out of the Caucasus/Trans-Caucasus area with Kura-Araxes and later cultures. This is probably responsible for most of the ANE in the Near East, and from there it affected Southern Europe, most of all Greece, Italy and some of the islands. So we have three possible ANE sources: EHG, SHG and the Caucasus area. David's K8 indeedSimon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82409034823936091672015-09-26T22:43:14.342-07:002015-09-26T22:43:14.342-07:00Just checked and David's K8 does not have EHG ...Just checked and David's K8 does not have EHG (has ANE instead but not the same). I strongly believe that EHG would be much better reference, that it's time to ditch ANE and look at the real thing. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46636281955886318312015-09-26T22:37:38.948-07:002015-09-26T22:37:38.948-07:00@Simon: Lochsbour, La Braña and KO1 represent roug...@Simon: Lochsbour, La Braña and KO1 represent roughly the (epi-)Magdalenian genetic pool (at least as far as we know, a few more data points would be interesting to have). It is clear however that the areas around the North Sea were not quite just "Magdalenian" but something else (Hamburgian-Ahrensburgian, later Maglemøsean around Denmark) and that the Swedish samples are suggestive of Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-3598530890319093072015-09-26T07:32:37.157-07:002015-09-26T07:32:37.157-07:00@ Maju
It's possible that the ANE detected in...@ Maju<br /><br />It's possible that the ANE detected in SHGs diffused further westwards with Mesolithic cultures and that Loschbour wasn't typical for the more northern West European HGs. But even if this happened (not sure), the Northwest European HGs would in all likelihood have less ANE than the SHGs, at most the same amount, if complete replacement happened (unlikely).<br /><br />Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65719897032067452112015-09-26T03:39:24.920-07:002015-09-26T03:39:24.920-07:00@Maju: "Ajvide and the other Pitted Ware samp...@Maju: "Ajvide and the other Pitted Ware samples should have roots in Eastern European EHG-like populations, although maybe mixed with SHG type peoples."<br /><br />Why do you think PWC people come from from the east rather than being, say, SHGs with a tiny bit of (very WHG-rich) EEF admixture?Angantyrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10737729155560807904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50794441111107185262015-09-26T02:23:41.377-07:002015-09-26T02:23:41.377-07:00@Simon: "I think ANE isn't that mysteriou...@Simon: "I think ANE isn't that mysterious, it's an Upper Paleolithic genome from Siberia"...<br /><br />I know what it is. The time distance between ANE and any European HGs is similar to that with farmers. ANE is way too old (from the LGM) and that may be why it is so problematic. Also ANE samples were all from Gravettian contexts, what is a Europe-originated culture (Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9533025436793568402015-09-26T02:16:41.053-07:002015-09-26T02:16:41.053-07:00@Simon: Indeed the Hungary Bronze Age sample (Vuce...@Simon: Indeed the Hungary Bronze Age sample (Vucedol culture presumably) is very odd, much like the Baalberge ones, although I did not know it produces a high ANE signal. Your interpretation however should be tested in a WHG-EHG-EEF triangle model, only if EHG is high enough to correspond to the ANE signal, what you say would make sense. <br /><br />But yours it is a good idea to be tested, and Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-17786477349160566672015-09-25T11:16:58.998-07:002015-09-25T11:16:58.998-07:00Günther et al. presented formal stats according to...Günther et al. presented formal stats according to which there was affinity with SHG in some EEF. This may well be the case, but the fact remains that these EEF lack ANE affinity, unlike the SHG. So it's probably not direct SHG admixture, but rather some relationship between some WHG and the SHG that goes beyond the ANE in the latter. (And probably farmer admixture in the later SHG also Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-12252205004253218322015-09-25T11:02:52.425-07:002015-09-25T11:02:52.425-07:00I think ANE isn't that mysterious, it's an...I think ANE isn't that mysterious, it's an Upper Paleolithic genome from Siberia (or two, if we take AG-2 into account) which shows affinity with a number of modern and ancient populations. ANE affinity hence may in principle come from various sources, but in Europe in general it means eastern admixture.Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25689518300291420612015-09-25T10:56:50.596-07:002015-09-25T10:56:50.596-07:00@ Maju
David didn't include the early Bronze ...@ Maju<br /><br />David didn't include the early Bronze Age sample BR1 from Gamba et al. into his Teal K9 analysis. But that whole talk about teal people and the teal component roots in the ADMIXTURE run of the Haak et al. paper, and there you can see that one of the HungaryGamba_BA samples, namely BR1, also almost lacks teal. She has marginal teal, yet quite considerable eastern shift and Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7756656087514400122015-09-24T02:10:56.272-07:002015-09-24T02:10:56.272-07:00@Maju,
"In any case I know well that Haak'...@Maju,<br />"In any case I know well that Haak's data models Basque as c. 20% Yamna"<br /><br />20% Yamnaya in Basque does sound crazy, in other areas though David gets the same results as Haak and Laz. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-58808786199523854192015-09-23T23:18:26.549-07:002015-09-23T23:18:26.549-07:00Haak's results seem rather contradictory with ...Haak's results seem rather contradictory with other results, and also with common sense. How do you explain that, Krefter? Claiming that Haak & Lazaridis are the wise ones and all the rest are wrong, or considering that when some results are not replicable, they may well be wrong. <br /><br />I just see more and more contradictions between Haak & Lazaridis and comparable independent Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-61576724888120446732015-09-23T16:46:58.019-07:002015-09-23T16:46:58.019-07:00@Maju,
"But no teal = no IE blood."
The...@Maju,<br />"But no teal = no IE blood."<br /><br />There are plenty of methods besides ADMIXTURE which show an eastern-shift in Basque. Haak actually modeled Basque as about 20% Yamnaya. Basque were literally surrounded by IEs right before the Roman empire. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-20798547781900232362015-09-23T10:04:08.902-07:002015-09-23T10:04:08.902-07:00@Simon: "I'm not sure why you think David...@Simon: "I'm not sure why you think David's K9 run also speaks against it. I guess you mean because of the strong teal component in Yamnaya vs. its near complete absence in Basques".<br /><br />Exactly.<br /><br />"But as Alberto explained, admixture runs like this can't be taken as absolute; Alberto explained that the Basques don't need any teal to explain their Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-58322274205974134332015-09-23T08:02:28.200-07:002015-09-23T08:02:28.200-07:00I wouldn't call it impossible. Your personal e...I wouldn't call it impossible. Your personal expectation is that biological kurgan influence in IE Europeans is minor admixture and much rather a cultural elite dominance effect, and hence non-IE Basques would be even less kurgan admixed. But that's just your opinion, based on archeology and maybe other factors. Let's see how that will change in the light of new archeogenetic evidenceSimon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-70495963309128820382015-09-21T13:34:27.582-07:002015-09-21T13:34:27.582-07:00@Simon: that's impossible even with David'...@Simon: that's impossible even with <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1M2drQQD7jvwwaTkpFTuBLQXllkUTVNOIfa9FReH7V5M/edit#gid=472811131" rel="nofollow">David's data apparently</a> (h/t to Alberto) but also with Alentoft's and with Günther's data as well. That "ANE" that Lazaridis attributes to Basques comes from nowhere similar to Yamna. Either it's a Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-71144489624422704212015-09-21T05:39:43.372-07:002015-09-21T05:39:43.372-07:00Haak et al., who published the first Yamnaya genom...Haak et al., who published the first Yamnaya genomes, abstained from calculating any ANE admixture proportions, but according to David's K8 model, Yamnaya is around 35% ANE. So this would mean about 25% Yamnaya in Basques, which is very close to the estimate in Haak et al., who arrived at 26.2% Yamnaya in figure S9.27 C. <br /><br />I don't think ANE is simply noise, the affinities have Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-41301358530121106612015-09-20T21:09:05.956-07:002015-09-20T21:09:05.956-07:00@Simon: Yamna could have some 25% "ANE",...@Simon: Yamna could have some 25% "ANE", just somewhat above Estonians. So the necessary admixture would still need to be massive (>40% in Basques, who otherwise show no signs of Yamna admixture)... unless ANE is a mirage or has other sources. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-80408317326241029352015-09-20T08:25:00.811-07:002015-09-20T08:25:00.811-07:00According to Lazaridis Table S14.9, Basques are 11...According to Lazaridis Table S14.9, Basques are 11.4% ANE, Spaniards 12.3% and Estonians 18.3%. <br /><br />But what is ANE? It's basically MA-1, an Upper Paleolithic Siberian. Very far from Copper Age Europe, both in time and place. So it's clear that ANE-admixture shouldn't be taken too literally as ANE admixing into Neolithic Europe. <br /><br />But now we know EHG, SHG, Yamnaya Simon_Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04454497745874406294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-5927309295167730862015-09-19T08:26:50.903-07:002015-09-19T08:26:50.903-07:00You seem to have it more clear than I do, Alberto....You seem to have it more clear than I do, Alberto. Thanks for the explanations in any case but I don't get it.<br /><br />Anyhow, according to Lazaridis, Basques have almost 10% ANE (vs 13% Spaniards, 18% Estonians, and 4-5% Sardinians). Even if we use Sardinians as baseline, there would be still 5% ANE in Basques vs a max. 13% in Estonians. Either way it'd mean some 40% Estonian-like Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-4402141074515507732015-09-19T02:27:50.463-07:002015-09-19T02:27:50.463-07:00With what we know today (of course, this is subjec...With what we know today (of course, this is subject to change when new samples come that show something different), the populations that introduced ANE into Europe (or most of Europe, since there was already some in the Baltic), had about 1/3rd of ANE (either Yamnaya or the "Armenian-like" population AKA "Teal"). So the impact of these ANE-rich populations can be <em>roughly</Albertohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10924243765876609481noreply@blogger.com