tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post7497503868622121740..comments2024-03-29T04:00:27.058-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: How the Corded Ware people Indo-Europeanized southern ScandinaviaDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-43091142757042478072017-09-15T22:57:08.581-07:002017-09-15T22:57:08.581-07:00The shortest route via water from the Baltic to th...The shortest route via water from the Baltic to the Black Sea is Vistula, Bug, Dniester and that would have been the most probable trade route...Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42017284619507486222017-09-15T21:55:36.315-07:002017-09-15T21:55:36.315-07:00@ Grey
Yes. Two important trade goods were Tin an...@ Grey<br /><br />Yes. Two important trade goods were Tin and Amber. A Tin ingot found in Scandinavia had its origin in Cornwall. Amber from the Baltic was found as far as the Mycenaeans and even king Tuts Tomb.Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-34189482886644072892017-09-15T13:52:51.741-07:002017-09-15T13:52:51.741-07:00@Grey
I reckon pretty much *anything* would be us...@Grey<br /><br />I reckon pretty much *anything* would be usefulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89723854432058868092017-09-15T12:57:03.449-07:002017-09-15T12:57:03.449-07:00epoch2013 said...
"Hittites cremated their de...epoch2013 said...<br />"Hittites cremated their dead, as Nick Patterson once stated here. There are a few burials but that doesn't mean they will yield something useful."<br /><br />a battle field would be useful<br />Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-77736752449343523842017-09-15T12:55:03.345-07:002017-09-15T12:55:03.345-07:00Ric Hern
"I definitely think that there was a...Ric Hern<br />"I definitely think that there was a lot of interaction between Scandinavia Germany,Britain and Ireland during the Bronze Age."<br /><br />as an exercise, if you limit movement to water based then:<br /><br />Samara -> Volga -> Baltic -> North Sea -> Atlantic coast<br /><br />jumps out<br /><br />#<br /><br />Samuel Andrews said...<br />"If modern Norse Greyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13398462488549380796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-57404005971230107012017-09-15T11:45:19.750-07:002017-09-15T11:45:19.750-07:00@ak2014b
Hittites cremated their dead, as Nick P...@ak2014b <br /><br />Hittites cremated their dead, as Nick Patterson once stated here. There are a few burials but that doesn't mean they will yield something useful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-40776502263898953162017-09-15T11:11:12.653-07:002017-09-15T11:11:12.653-07:00@Max - I'm not sure how much weight to put on ...@Max - I'm not sure how much weight to put on the word order thing. The change for Celtic is probably significant. FYI though Basque is not SVO - it is ergative. I don't think a connection to Afroasiatic is likely though I guess it can't be ruled out. That similarity could just be coincidence. PIE was originally SOV anyways, and in central America there are VSO and ergative languages Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-72604478404618507842017-09-15T08:30:55.351-07:002017-09-15T08:30:55.351-07:00@David
"From what I've been told, don'...<a href="http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/09/how-corded-ware-people-indo.html?showComment=1505397502994#c7516544058376591057" rel="nofollow">@David</a><br /><i>"From what I've been told, don't expect any Hittite papers for a good while. The big South Asian paper should be coming soon though, if things go smoothly behind the scenes."</i><br /><br />Aren't there 2 papers on Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-38534014721999412172017-09-15T06:48:51.424-07:002017-09-15T06:48:51.424-07:00@Rob Yeah for sure. What I meant was the Germanic ...@Rob Yeah for sure. What I meant was the Germanic familiy of languages exhibits features that places it close both to Balto Slavic and to Celtic. Some kind of interaction between the Corded ware dialects and the older kentum dialects seems to have been crucial in the formation of early GermanicArchaeloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15442251558517281095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-81832471842589409672017-09-15T00:41:58.038-07:002017-09-15T00:41:58.038-07:00Thanks Rob. Thanks Rob. Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23470340024460767412017-09-15T00:41:07.234-07:002017-09-15T00:41:07.234-07:00Of course there are also the Yeagers haplotypes:
_...Of course there are also the Yeagers haplotypes:<br />_R1a* (M420+ SRY10831.2-) Cluster 2 <br />93721 Yeager Germany R-M173 <br />14 23 15 10 12-12 12 12 11 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 12 25 15 20 31 11-12-15-16 10 10 19-23 15 16 16 18 36-37 12 12 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 20-20 16 10 12 12 15 8 11 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 <br />140814 Yeager Germany R-M173 <br />14 23 15 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-31604585964316810202017-09-15T00:31:26.297-07:002017-09-15T00:31:26.297-07:00@ Ric
I think it was George O. who pointed that ou...@ Ric<br />I think it was George O. who pointed that out :)Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-63586771995109608612017-09-15T00:16:11.006-07:002017-09-15T00:16:11.006-07:00All that for saying that the Western European clus...All that for saying that the Western European cluster is the oldest and 12600 years of the separation may be linked to the expansion after the Younger Dryas as many other subclades of R1 hg.<br />Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-41528314694233190812017-09-15T00:08:47.722-07:002017-09-15T00:08:47.722-07:00My hypothesis:
R-YP4132 YP4176 * YP4139 * YP4134+5...My hypothesis:<br />R-YP4132 YP4176 * YP4139 * YP4134+51 SNPs 10900 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 7200 3800 ybp" class="age"formed 12600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp<br />R-YP4132* <br />⦁ id:YF09838 [Italy ?]<br />R-YP4131 YP4221 * YP4204 * YP4137+24 SNPs 3800 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 1550500 ybp" class="age"formed 5400 ybp, TMRCA 900 ybp <br />⦁ id:YF04438GBR [GB-LAN]<br />⦁ id:YF03626USA [Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-68080106888967394662017-09-14T23:58:33.497-07:002017-09-14T23:58:33.497-07:00Unfortunately 648446 Alkandari is tested only for ...Unfortunately 648446 Alkandari is tested only for Y111 and many of the STRs taken into account from YFull are beyond them, but we may say hat his haplotype is upstream the R1a-YP5018 but downstream the separation with the Western European R1a-YP4131, just for these meaningful values: DYS454=11 and not 12, DYS531=11 and not 9 which link him to the Western European cluster, and DYS437=15 and not Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23952283322979394272017-09-14T23:39:37.902-07:002017-09-14T23:39:37.902-07:00Well like you said before Proto-Kartvelian seems t...Well like you said before Proto-Kartvelian seems to only date linguistically to +-2000 bC. but that is basically only using one most conservative Kartvelian language, Svan. <br /><br />There could have been many more related to Svan that died out and using their combined reconstruction could have pushed back the dates even further...<br /><br />So in my humble opinion I think what you say could Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39396675123402128142017-09-14T23:19:23.753-07:002017-09-14T23:19:23.753-07:00Ric
Maybe coincidence ? If ENF were mostly haplo...Ric <br /><br />Maybe coincidence ? If ENF were mostly haplogroup G, does it mean they spoke something like Kartvellian ? (Fun speculation) Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25318627357520502842017-09-14T21:40:27.408-07:002017-09-14T21:40:27.408-07:00A fanatic panalanist (every hg derives from Alans,...A fanatic panalanist (every hg derives from Alans, from our R-L23 to this R1a), and who isn't anymore in my mail list because, when I was attacked on the YFull FB page he blocked his address, as the other ex-friend Ricardo, but look at my answers there about his J-M365), writes to me through a friend that this R1a-YP5018 may be of Alan origin for having samples from Dersimian tribe. Of Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-31296345796116314852017-09-14T17:42:07.478-07:002017-09-14T17:42:07.478-07:00@ Rob
I just looked at Word Order specifically a...@ Rob <br /><br />I just looked at Word Order specifically and I do not see VSO anywhere near Anatolia...Sumerians,Hurrians,Anatolian, PIE etc...all seem to be SOV....and there is a huge gap and many populations between Semitic Akadian and Celtic....that is why I think that it could be plausible for some WHG language to have been VSO.Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-26921249068239750992017-09-14T16:07:13.075-07:002017-09-14T16:07:13.075-07:00@Ryan
"I wouldn't assume Basque is repr...@Ryan <br /><br />"I wouldn't assume Basque is representative of Neolithic/farmer languages either. "<br /><br />That is true. Linguists classify Basque as <i>Agglutination</i> language, while Proto-Indo-European is <i>Fusional</i> language.<br /><br />Both Basque and Proto-Indo-European use SOV word-order grammar. But, Celtic languages have shifted to VSO, a word-order more common MaxThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12920295419805648337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-13736025790146663572017-09-14T15:31:04.787-07:002017-09-14T15:31:04.787-07:00@Rob - Germanized from where? The Urnfield Culture...@Rob - Germanized from where? The Urnfield Culture seems to have occupied all of the territory to the south and even today there are Celtic place names as for east as Poland.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-4557812882994553982017-09-14T15:23:40.941-07:002017-09-14T15:23:40.941-07:00@David - But I'm not sure where the rest of th...@David - <i>But I'm not sure where the rest of the Proto-Germanic package originated and how it got to Scandinavia. Maybe people like Nordic_LN RISE98, who belonged to R1b-U106, were involved in the process. RISE98 basically looks modern Scando. See here...</i><br /><br />Whose metallurgy is the Nordic Bronze Age based on? Is it Unetice-derived, or direct from Bell Beakers?<br /><br />Either Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25250276436180309242017-09-14T11:59:44.726-07:002017-09-14T11:59:44.726-07:00@ RK
I'm inclined to agree with linguists tha...@ RK<br /><br />I'm inclined to agree with linguists that Scandinavia was only germanicised at the turn of the common era (Udolph, Schmidt, Osten)<br />These powerful substrata you describe would be the Nordic Bronze Age <br /><br />Secondly, I'm afraid Thracian studies are not as optimal as we would like. It was too loosely applied what can be seems Thracian. As appealing as it is, Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29901242135596608342017-09-14T11:38:15.291-07:002017-09-14T11:38:15.291-07:00There are clear differences in the degree of non-I...There are clear differences in the degree of non-Indo-Europeanness of Indo-European branches. In European IE dialects, Celtic, Italic, the smattering of "para-Celto-Italic" languages like Ligurian, Venetic and Lusitanian and especially Balto-Slavic appear seem to have purer vocabularies and more expected sound-change trajectories than Germanic did. This suggests, at least to me, that Ryukendo Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11588546655427153692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14443879844108828212017-09-14T10:19:34.091-07:002017-09-14T10:19:34.091-07:00@Davidski
Regarding: "But languages can'...@Davidski<br /><br />Regarding: "But languages can't have multiple origins.<br /><br />WTF?"<br /><br />He's right, at least in the sense that German couldn't evolve as a single language in two different places independently. The fact that languages evolve through mixing is true, but it doesn't change the fact that the same language doesn't evolve twice, any more Mark B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03524735496130204611noreply@blogger.com