tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post7786244983982912010..comments2024-03-29T01:11:37.621-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Ancient Caucasus open analysis and discussionDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger170125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-79048363432667728752019-02-18T15:43:48.619-08:002019-02-18T15:43:48.619-08:00Thanks Matt Thanks Matt Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78799946585724822532019-02-18T11:04:30.039-08:002019-02-18T11:04:30.039-08:00The updated Global25 scaled Ward's distance-sq...The updated Global25 scaled Ward's distance-squared clustering tree with the additional samples:<br /><br /><a href="http://open-genomes.org/analysis/PCA/clustering/Eurogenes_Global25_tree_scaled.pdf" rel="nofollow"><b>Updated Eurogenes Global25 scaled Ward's distance-squared clustering tree</b></a><br /><br />Some highlights:<br /><br /><a href="http://open-genomes.org/genomes/Wang%20(Open Genomeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11207443325849433636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-36876499031562197432019-02-18T04:37:14.850-08:002019-02-18T04:37:14.850-08:00@Dragos, sure. Here: https://imgur.com/a/pgUML6n
...@Dragos, sure. Here: https://imgur.com/a/pgUML6n<br /><br />Two slightly different PCA modes used (with basically same results). Gone up to the number of PCs at which populations stop showing tight between pop variation in means and variance. <br /><br />Slightly busier than the plots you linked as I just stuck the Balkans_BA and Balkans_Chl labelled samples onto the a version I created with moreMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29076338113097095142019-02-17T23:25:12.530-08:002019-02-17T23:25:12.530-08:00@Davidski "Garino-Bor and Volosovo are genera...@Davidski "Garino-Bor and Volosovo are generally regarded to have been proto-Uralic or early Uralic"<br /><br />Not according to Jaakko Haakkinen:<br /><br />https://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust264/sust264_hakkinenj.pdf<br /><br />He asserts that this Volosovo type substrate which he says is neither IE nor Uralic was the same substrate that Kunda/Narva HG languages were spoken in Lithuania Andrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-14089069494556683662019-02-17T15:27:56.205-08:002019-02-17T15:27:56.205-08:00@Andre,
"It's amazing how modern scientis...@Andre,<br />"It's amazing how modern scientists are challenging the prevalence of ancient Europeans all over Asia."<br /><br />Obviously, mainstream will be sensitive & hesitant towards saying this. But, in 2009 when Andronovo nomads & its descendants' DNA was sequenced the highlight was they had West Eurasian mtDNA & blonde hair and blue eyes. They weren't Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49125951688025597372019-02-17T14:20:20.851-08:002019-02-17T14:20:20.851-08:00@Samuel Andrews
"Sredney Stog R1a M417+ guy ...@Samuel Andrews<br /><br />"Sredney Stog R1a M417+ guy picks Globular & SwedenEN as his farmer ancestors. But this could not possibly be correct. RIght? Because, he existed before Globular Amphora. His only possible farmer ancestor is Cucuteni–Trypillia. Right? They were the only farmers who settled east enough to be in direct contact with early Proto Indo Europeans."<br /><br />Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-78545849575688051092019-02-17T14:07:11.023-08:002019-02-17T14:07:11.023-08:00To this graph https://imgur.com/a/8mxXEq9To this graph https://imgur.com/a/8mxXEq9Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-64806383719434732582019-02-17T14:04:11.356-08:002019-02-17T14:04:11.356-08:00Matt
Nice graphs . Wrt the issue of Majkop & U...Matt<br />Nice graphs . Wrt the issue of Majkop & Ukraine N as alternatives , can you throw in BA Balkans, cwc , BB. I think they should all line up with “regular”’Yamnaya but if you can it would be nice to visualise Dragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137547950290035805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-38768030076641255862019-02-17T13:38:33.824-08:002019-02-17T13:38:33.824-08:00It's amazing how modern scientists are challen...It's amazing how modern scientists are challenging the prevalence of ancient Europeans all over Asia. It was known that around the time of Christ large swaths of land in Asia derived from Steppe populations such as Saka. Wudun, Scythians, Sarmatians, Tocharians/Yuezhi/Kuchans. It was acknowledged until very recently that Central Asia, Anatolia, Northwestern China, Western Mongolia, even partsAndrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-58349522068747154472019-02-17T13:04:43.671-08:002019-02-17T13:04:43.671-08:00@Andrzejewski
Please try and get the basics right...@Andrzejewski<br /><br />Please try and get the basics right in these sorts of discussions, because it's kind of mind numbing reading stuff like this...<br /><br /><i>However, Tarim Basin Mummies were exclusively so far R1b.</i><br /><br />All but one of the Tarim Basin Mummies belonged to R1a.<br /><br /><i>Would you agree that the Volsovo were a non-IE non-Uralic Europoid HG (Cro-Magnon?) Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-46073670754380038602019-02-17T12:51:52.556-08:002019-02-17T12:51:52.556-08:00@Slumbery Will all these findings mean that Cimmer...@Slumbery Will all these findings mean that Cimmerians or even Scythians plus some Yuezhi/Tocharians may NOT be IE speakers after all?<br /><br />Now, some people would regard Tocharians as descendants of the Afanasievo. Here is why they are wrong:<br /><br />1. Afanasievo mixed with Okunevo, which may be related to Yeniseian/Botai/WSHG. The following Prewarski/Tagar Cultures were thought to be Andrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-50782995135349123502019-02-17T11:00:53.866-08:002019-02-17T11:00:53.866-08:00Had a go at some nMonte fits for the Steppe_Maykop...Had a go at some nMonte fits for the Steppe_Maykop samples that are outlying (SA6013, IV3002, AY2001), and for Lola:NV3001.<br /><br />Full dump of nMonte here: https://pastebin.com/KEhyX3tZ<br /><br />Now the first thing I found was that with the most unrestricted set, there wasn't much pushing the samples to take the proximate likely samples from the region: Steppe_Maykop and the Caucasus Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-4323879256778496102019-02-17T10:47:59.001-08:002019-02-17T10:47:59.001-08:00@Davidski Would the new findings about Cimmerians ...@Davidski Would the new findings about Cimmerians having ANE/East Asian ancestry rule out them (and some Scythian/Saka, maybe even Tocharian groups) being Indo-European speaking?Andrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-21588438882535657012019-02-17T09:42:05.164-08:002019-02-17T09:42:05.164-08:00@Andrzejewski
I only said that the Cimmerians can...@Andrzejewski<br /><br />I only said that the Cimmerians can be very well related to Asian Saka&Scytian, because they are not particularly eastern or even that Heaven vs. Earth different compared to them. There is no doubt that Cimmerians are very eastern for their Geographical position. <br /><br />Even your source note that: <i>"The authors found it "noteworthy that the oldest of Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-53127437041918267282019-02-17T07:48:14.809-08:002019-02-17T07:48:14.809-08:00Beaker Rhine & Sintashta/Andrnovo are two ethn...Beaker Rhine & Sintashta/Andrnovo are two ethnic groups that emerged at western & eastern edges of Corded Ware culture. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-62446161798616399972019-02-17T07:28:13.393-08:002019-02-17T07:28:13.393-08:00@Davidski; Ah, cool. That adds to the perception o...@Davidski; Ah, cool. That adds to the perception of diversity in the Potapovka samples compared to the Sintashta samples, and the Srubnaya culture that succeeds Potapovka (which is basically like Sintashta). <br /><br />Of course Sintashta has diversity, but there are 29 main samples that are mainly like each other and 8 outliers, while the Potapovka has 4 samples which are all quite different Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-52428643193964448832019-02-17T06:47:29.478-08:002019-02-17T06:47:29.478-08:00The worst nightmare seems to be unfolding for thos...The worst nightmare seems to be unfolding for those who did not think R1a/R1b people had anything to do with the spread of new ideas and or language; without the direct or indirect help/influence of middle east proper cultures. With all the luck[so far- every published sample] going in the direction of R1a/R1b steppe sphere of influence. In contrast, using various lines of creative reasoning ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00239954589937094679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-33736929136691394912019-02-17T06:39:39.496-08:002019-02-17T06:39:39.496-08:00@Davidski @Slumbery "The authors found it &qu...@Davidski @Slumbery "The authors found it "noteworthy that the oldest of the Cimmerians studied here (cim357) carried almost equal proportions of Asian and West Eurasian components, resembling the Pazyryks, Aldy-Bel, and Iron Age individuals from Russia and Kazakhstan. The second oldest Cimmerian (cim358) was also the only one with both uniparental markers pointing toward East Asia. TheAndrzejewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16348054679275572956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-19964579194173608122019-02-17T06:10:23.338-08:002019-02-17T06:10:23.338-08:00Yeah, that's a wrongly labeled Potapovka sampl...Yeah, that's a wrongly labeled Potapovka sample. Forgot to fix that in the G25 datasheets.<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-44265140394918505352019-02-17T06:07:40.305-08:002019-02-17T06:07:40.305-08:00Putting the Sintashta on the scaffold reveals that...Putting the Sintashta on the scaffold reveals that Lola is quite similar to Sintashta outlier I0983 from the Sintashta outlier o1 cluster, which as Slumbery rightly explained appears to lack admixture from main Sintashta cluster but is between West_Siberia_N and Yamnaya: <br /><br />https://imgur.com/a/lBhMbuL<br /><br />Though I'd guess that from Sintashta outlier o1 cluster, only I0983 is Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-4139567136613098082019-02-17T05:25:59.397-08:002019-02-17T05:25:59.397-08:00@Synome, yep, Caucasus paper designates a Maykop &...@Synome, yep, Caucasus paper designates a Maykop "sphere of influence" and a direct Maykop zone that includes regions of the mountain flank at the west that is not sampled. Going off that, so perhaps other archaeologists would deny that there ever was a Maykop "sphere of influence".<br /><br />@Davidski, thanks for adding the other new samples.<br /><br />Sticking them with Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-91784022090610573322019-02-17T04:40:18.314-08:002019-02-17T04:40:18.314-08:00@Matt
Can you point me to some academic work rega...@Matt<br /><br />Can you point me to some academic work regarding the "Maykop sphere of influence" that is currently unsampled? Is that in the Caucasus paper or somewhere else?Synomehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02168979109558144980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-24042575618489982692019-02-17T03:58:51.711-08:002019-02-17T03:58:51.711-08:00@Matt
You need to look at all of the evidence, an...@Matt<br /><br />You need to look at all of the evidence, and keep in mind that the analyses based on formal stats that Chad is relying so heavily on can produce biased results depending on how they're set up.<br /><br />But I'll explain everything soon.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-15067142403675768852019-02-17T03:25:19.479-08:002019-02-17T03:25:19.479-08:00@Davidski, well, the reason Chad's models work...@Davidski, well, the reason Chad's models work is going to be because a population admixed between Maykop+Ukraine_N and then admixed with Piedmont_Eneolithic, can accommodate Yamnaya. The WHG:AN ratio can be supplied by Ukraine_N. 2-way Maykop+ UkraineN or EHG do not seem like viable models, but that does.<br /><br />I don't think we have enough samples to disregard that possiblity, and Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517454865405705885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-77750342846779354172019-02-17T00:53:10.202-08:002019-02-17T00:53:10.202-08:00@Andrzejewski
Actually Karasuk (mostly like Karas...@Andrzejewski<br /><br />Actually Karasuk (mostly like Karasuk outlier actually) is better fit for the Saka groups than to Cimmerians. Cimmerians are not Eastern at all compared to Asian Saka&Scytian groups. They are eastern compared to Scytian_Moldova and Scytian_Ukraine sure, but those are much more western than other Scytians, except Scytian_Hungary (the latter is almost fully local/Slumberyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05139930329199925111noreply@blogger.com