tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post8261542979579131542..comments2024-03-29T04:00:27.058-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Low prevalence of lactase persistence in Bronze Age Europe (Burger et al. 2020)Davidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-49378201226244685502021-04-09T18:12:43.277-07:002021-04-09T18:12:43.277-07:00But that grave doesn't inform who was the orig...But that grave doesn't inform who was the original owner of the gadgets of the cool guy - if he bought it, won it for glory or robbed it while it's hard to escape interpretation. A warrior with old wounds might have survived disease because he was skilled/smarter in combat avoiding worse wounds, by knowing herbal remedies, thanks to a healthier diet or thanks to a fast horse getting him Ebrelioshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10367484749034870991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-29050553224438466002021-04-09T17:55:10.614-07:002021-04-09T17:55:10.614-07:00Especially in time of epidemic. I believe in time ...Especially in time of epidemic. I believe in time of that big one less crowded herding, meat & fermented food eating communities were a big winners vs farmers low on vitamin D and immunity in general (and high in risk factors as insulin resistance, inflammations like egyptians). I even have a theory that Greece rised thanks to very little fertile lands & steppe diet & lifestyle influxEbrelioshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10367484749034870991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-8458279551116341552020-09-25T21:34:25.637-07:002020-09-25T21:34:25.637-07:00When I read, matthayichen's quote it looked li...When I read, matthayichen's quote it looked like the way a Marxist archaeologist would describe the likely origin of the LP allele. Yet Davidski, thinks it looks Nazi(ish)/Fascist hence German researchers would never touch such an idea. <br /><br />Interesting, how both ideologies have a similar dark view of human nature. <br /><br />Kind of like, how archaeologist see a rich ancient burial Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27615411391349522392020-09-23T00:38:16.160-07:002020-09-23T00:38:16.160-07:00@matthayichen
And wherever such (conquering) clan...@matthayichen<br /><br /><i>And wherever such (conquering) clans are dominant, everyone else will try to follow the cultural norms or emulate the elites and those who get sick will simply be considered inferior stock and naturally sickly, and weeded out.</i><br /><br />Yes, interesting theory. But I suspect it's too hardcore for the Germans to have even considered it an option in a formal Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23456285734007360752020-09-22T22:36:47.998-07:002020-09-22T22:36:47.998-07:00My theory of LP spread goes like this. There is a ...My theory of LP spread goes like this. There is a cultural inflection point where selection really takes off. It is the point where the cultural wisdom goes from "don't drink raw milk or you'll get sick" to "you have to drink fresh milk to be big and strong". <br /><br />Perhaps migration and founder effects can trigger this cultural change locally. And wherever such (matthayichenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12779134957633918365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-18013122838687554772020-09-11T04:30:30.200-07:002020-09-11T04:30:30.200-07:00@zardos
So it was more than just "drinking m...@zardos<br /><br /><i>So it was more than just "drinking milk occasionally", there is no way to get that kind of selective pressure like that. It was a complete orientation on animal products. Logically, this fits better into nomadic or half-nomadic steppe people, but that's not the case it seems. There are heavy milk consumers on the steppe, to this day, which are largely lactose Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-39131895970044925942020-09-10T03:04:49.167-07:002020-09-10T03:04:49.167-07:00@Samuel: It became a luxury for some workers and s...@Samuel: It became a luxury for some workers and slaves in America, but it was a common food throughout most of Europe from earliest times recorded. Many families survived times of famine and catastrophy only relying on the milk of a cow or goat. Especially Germanics seem to have relied heavily on milk and meat. If being poor cereals and milk was still a good meal. So especially the poor people zardoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17818491540055232430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28331260805930504362020-09-09T20:02:50.121-07:002020-09-09T20:02:50.121-07:00@zardos,
Interesting. Are Europeans traditionally...@zardos,<br /><br />Interesting. Are Europeans traditionally more a diary culture than other parts of the world? I would think this could be a cultural-significant thing for Europeans going back to Bronze age. <br /><br />Milk is as standard as water in America but only because of industrial farming in last 100 years. <br /><br />I read that before then milk was luxury. But, I don't believe Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-13719754058462341702020-09-09T17:20:48.167-07:002020-09-09T17:20:48.167-07:00@zardos
Thanks.
Do you know if yogurt existed ba...@zardos<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Do you know if yogurt existed back then or is that a recent Central Asian Turkish thing?Tigranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955883581411699330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-23967845484866185412020-09-09T16:37:05.336-07:002020-09-09T16:37:05.336-07:00@Tigran: Milk was consumed much earlier, without L...@Tigran: Milk was consumed much earlier, without LP spreading fast. Its no all or nothing thing, like drinking milk or not. The shift must have been caused by an extreme consumption of and dependence from milk. And it helped the non-LP people too, because the rates were so low, it spread among non-tolerant populations. It was just that among these heavy milk users, those with LP got the edge, zardoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17818491540055232430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-91977076514234449502020-09-09T06:18:20.534-07:002020-09-09T06:18:20.534-07:00For that time, we can only talk about three large ...For that time, we can only talk about three large opposing formations, the Tumulus culture, the Proto-Lusatian culture and the Nordic Bronze Age culture. All of them were hostile to each other, so on which side the Lusatians were playing was not at all determined.<br /><br />I must say that we really do not know at all the autosomal distribution between the cultures of that era, therefore, it is Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-13334194057290134662020-09-08T17:44:01.361-07:002020-09-08T17:44:01.361-07:00Exactly. That is the job of archaeologists. Obviou...Exactly. That is the job of archaeologists. Obviously, 2000-500 BC, there was dependence on dairy in diet in much of EUrope. <br /><br />In South Asia, the only populations in which the LP allele is popular is in ones traditionally dependent in dairy which is interesting and no coincidence. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-48583071880783198872020-09-08T17:02:00.119-07:002020-09-08T17:02:00.119-07:00So what caused the selection for LP? A switch to m...So what caused the selection for LP? A switch to milk from cheese. Were milk and yogurt consumed in the European neolithic or was most dairy cheese?Tigranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03955883581411699330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-11434284959662197392020-09-08T11:28:48.490-07:002020-09-08T11:28:48.490-07:00Two samples from Kuyavia (N47 and N49, both I2a2),...Two samples from Kuyavia (N47 and N49, both I2a2), one more autosomal similar to WEZ56 and the other to the main Welzin cluster, show that in the Pomeranian region in the old days people with widely different autosomal diversity could live side by side. WEZ56 does not have to be an outliner, because we also have R1a-Z283, Z280 from Halberstadt from the nearby area and period.ambronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238484037682022972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89449330975508725522020-09-08T11:09:04.367-07:002020-09-08T11:09:04.367-07:00Is that WEZ56 similar to (somewhat) contemporary B...Is that WEZ56 similar to (somewhat) contemporary Baltic BA samples or more similar to modern Slavs or Balts?Parastaishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714636163040324847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30216033085028706312020-09-08T11:03:44.905-07:002020-09-08T11:03:44.905-07:00I emailed the authors. We'll see if they make ...I emailed the authors. We'll see if they make the genotype data public.<br /><br />It is frustrating when researchers don't understand the power of ancient DNA has for understanding history.<br /><br />"All the soldiers are generally genetically similar, therefore they all come from the same exact population. Nothing more to look for."Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-37657659021487012812020-09-08T05:17:25.212-07:002020-09-08T05:17:25.212-07:00Now I see that WEZ56 was the outlier and now being...Now I see that WEZ56 was the outlier and now being confirmed R1a, being pulled heavily to the North East. Well, he might be a warrior which participated on the campaign more or less by chance or he is a good representative of a stronger element among the winners, which carried most of their dead on dry ground away...zardoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17818491540055232430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-30177733621728588192020-09-08T02:05:16.619-07:002020-09-08T02:05:16.619-07:00R1a has a large Balto-Slavic drift. Lucas groups h...R1a has a large Balto-Slavic drift. Lucas groups him with northeastern Poland.ambronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01238484037682022972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-65174883755101715802020-09-08T00:50:02.293-07:002020-09-08T00:50:02.293-07:00@Sam: "Well, the ancestry of majority of publ...@Sam: "Well, the ancestry of majority of published Tollense soldiers matches Bronze age Hungary. They look like they are from the Carpthian Basin. But of course we don't understand Bronze age regional variation well yet. None the less, they don't look like descendants of Corded Ware, Bell beaker, or Unetice even though many carry R1b. So, I tend to think they are not local to zardoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17818491540055232430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-59235442706572685822020-09-07T19:51:11.263-07:002020-09-07T19:51:11.263-07:00@All
If you want these new Tollense samples in th...@All<br /><br />If you want these new Tollense samples in the Global25, then request the <i>genotype data</i> from these guys.<br /><br />jburger@uni-mainz.de<br /><br />daniel.wegmann@unifr.ch<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-55389104736763696112020-09-07T18:12:12.140-07:002020-09-07T18:12:12.140-07:00@zardos,
It would be cool to see DNA from nearby ...@zardos,<br /><br />It would be cool to see DNA from nearby warrior burials. This would be the next step in understanding the Tollense battle. <br /><br />It is surprising flint arrows were still being used as late as 1200 BC. Do local burials in Northern Europe from 1200 BC include flint weapons? Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-9424471577809249072020-09-07T17:37:19.323-07:002020-09-07T17:37:19.323-07:00@zardos,
Well, the ancestry of majority of publis...@zardos,<br /><br />Well, the ancestry of majority of published Tollense soldiers matches Bronze age Hungary. They look like they are from the Carpthian Basin. But of course we don't understand Bronze age regional variation well yet. None the less, they don't look like descendants of Corded Ware, Bell beaker, or Unetice even though many carry R1b. So, I tend to think they are not local toSamuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-1081546345981332892020-09-07T17:20:40.609-07:002020-09-07T17:20:40.609-07:00Some even died in the water, so they were not robb...Some even died in the water, so they were not robbed by the winners.<br /><br />I spoke of nearby warrior burials which might represent true locals. Not from the river, just nearby.<br />And thats the only way to be sure which warriors at Tollense were locals and which not, by testing local burials too.zardoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17818491540055232430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84103799378265829802020-09-07T16:38:24.710-07:002020-09-07T16:38:24.710-07:00A read a few things on Tollense battle.
It sounde...A read a few things on Tollense battle.<br /><br />It sounded like the bodies were not buried. And by luck fell into a river and were preserved.<br /><br />Why are you guys referring to burials? I must have read wrong. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84964924817767140512020-09-07T15:10:11.821-07:002020-09-07T15:10:11.821-07:00There was a lot of research, but so far only piece...There was a lot of research, but so far only pieces were published, still many uncertainties. The big publications and conclusions are still not there.<br />But I really think that alliances fought and most of the dead are supposed to be from the losing side. In the articles linked they mention groups of well-equipped warrior burials from the region and same time. Some compared them to some kind zardoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17818491540055232430noreply@blogger.com