tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post8688931356042606872..comments2024-03-29T01:11:37.621-07:00Comments on Eurogenes Blog: Housekeeping stuffDavidskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comBlogger106125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-7576273030229996272020-08-25T05:49:51.076-07:002020-08-25T05:49:51.076-07:00@Aram
I agree that we have to use terms like Pro...@Aram <br /><br />I agree that we have to use terms like Proto-X at some point, but in many cases that some point is hard to decide due to the limited data and the conflicting theories based on the limited data. I myself have no issue a priori with calling a predecessor population of the Armenians that had already moved out of the steppe "Proto-Armenian," reserving for their ancestors Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-43934045537377523642020-08-25T02:29:58.010-07:002020-08-25T02:29:58.010-07:00Onur
Terms are off course not crucial. Turkic mig...Onur<br /><br />Terms are off course not crucial. Turkic migrations are well attested so we know the names of this tribes. Oghuz Turcoman is OK. I wanted to highlight the concept. <br />In most cases we don't know the names of this MLBA pops in Armenia so we must use some terms. <br />Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-47101126078053393332020-08-24T06:56:51.706-07:002020-08-24T06:56:51.706-07:00@Aram
Thanks for the article. Will look into it w...@Aram<br /><br />Thanks for the article. Will look into it when I have spare time. <br /><br />By the way, this may sound like hairsplitting, but the Proto-Oghuz actually lived in what is now Mongolia or somewhere just to its west during the Gokturk era and they migrated to the Aral steppe of what is now Kazakhstan several decades after the fall of the Second Gokturk Khaganate, mixed with the Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-6721365529600113892020-08-24T05:01:06.803-07:002020-08-24T05:01:06.803-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-28407076835690887652020-08-24T03:51:50.178-07:002020-08-24T03:51:50.178-07:00Onur
This is the map of Chaff faced ware. 4500-35...Onur<br /><br />This is the map of Chaff faced ware. 4500-3500 bc.<br /><br />https://adnaera.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Europe-3800-3600-BC.png<br /><br />And here a paper. Also with map.<br /><br />https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-9345_2010_num_36_2_5387<br /><br />Arslantepe VII layer was CFW. We have 4 the oldest samples from this period. The rest are from younger VIB layer. This Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-45556854967960391232020-08-24T03:35:12.792-07:002020-08-24T03:35:12.792-07:00Wot
We have ancient DNA from Hungary and it is cle...Wot<br />We have ancient DNA from Hungary and it is clear that they had more cases of haplogroup N than today. Obviously they had also that Siberian ancestry which is today absent. I don't see how You see parallels with Hungarians if the Yamnayan Z2103 is still one of the most frequent haplotypes in Armenia and there is still 8% of Steppe after 4000 year of that migration while the Siberian Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27749347655446233772020-08-23T16:34:21.038-07:002020-08-23T16:34:21.038-07:00@Davidski
I see, thanks. I will ask the intereste...@Davidski<br /><br />I see, thanks. I will ask the interested members on AG if they can do the conversion.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-76845981835113401762020-08-23T16:22:08.493-07:002020-08-23T16:22:08.493-07:00@Onur
It seems to be sequence data, not genotypes...@Onur<br /><br />It seems to be sequence data, not genotypes, so I won't spend the time converting it. If someone else does it, I can run them.<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-73832340831685185912020-08-23T16:18:49.442-07:002020-08-23T16:18:49.442-07:00@Davidski
Will you add the new samples in this ne...@Davidski<br /><br />Will you add the new samples in <a href="https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929720302378" rel="nofollow">this new paper</a> to your Global25 modern references before discontinuing your modern references (assuming you will discontinue them)? People were asking about them Anthrogenica.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-60579064948966562642020-08-23T15:21:32.063-07:002020-08-23T15:21:32.063-07:00@Aram
Yes, the academic modern genome samples are...@Aram<br /><br />Yes, the academic modern genome samples are being complemented with new ones as the years pass, so it is prudent to keep using them as references in analyses such as Global25. When the Behar et al. paper was published in 2010, the Cappadocian Turkish samples it used became the first academic Turkish genome-wide samples, but over the years new academic Turkish samples have been Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-42853245168952345212020-08-23T10:49:34.209-07:002020-08-23T10:49:34.209-07:00The Latvian Middle Neolithic groups are really het...The Latvian Middle Neolithic groups are really heterogeneous and can be pretty confidently split between Narva and CCC, albeit closer to one another than EHG and older Narva.<br />https://ibb.co/XzWGQVC<br />The Tamula samples show further shift to the intermediate territory between EHG and Narva, and Tamula1 glares with it's minor shift toward CWC. Norfern-Ostrobothnianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08786469674963515571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-3945982240905968432020-08-23T06:30:06.796-07:002020-08-23T06:30:06.796-07:00@Aram
Your definitions and terms don't make m...@Aram<br /><br />Your definitions and terms don't make much sense, what's the point of defining "proto-Armenian"? It's not a useful term and its creation seems merely a rhetorical device, if a "proto-Armenian" population was born out of 20-25% original Steppe admixture and 75-80% local admixture like you say, given that population was further diluted, how in the Wothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10061931565099868679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-75574533317333371762020-08-23T04:11:29.703-07:002020-08-23T04:11:29.703-07:00In sum those modern Armenian samples are in accord...In sum those modern Armenian samples are in accordance with ancient samples from our region. Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-27956185908416911532020-08-23T04:01:39.844-07:002020-08-23T04:01:39.844-07:00Onur
Just an addition. In this PCA it is visible ...Onur<br /><br />Just an addition. In this PCA it is visible that the Tepecik Ciftlik is slightly more northern shifted than the main Arslantepe cluster. So it's use can affect the result.<br /><br />https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t0r50UaE9ZA/Xt9BgaMJDwI/AAAAAAAAI8I/XMxVTm_S8uIegBZhOc1gwaBXekJIKcP3gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Arslantepe_LC_Maykop_PCA.png<br /><br />As for modern academic Armenians. As far asAramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-53962748543469947892020-08-23T02:09:09.707-07:002020-08-23T02:09:09.707-07:00Although it does seem like ZVEJ24 and 13 are effec...Although it does seem like ZVEJ24 and 13 are effectively EHGs with minor Narva ancestry, while 14 is closer to the later Tamula(3) CCC. <br />https://imgur.com/a/KrwyGOTNorfern-Ostrobothnianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08786469674963515571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-744848695164806172020-08-23T01:53:30.378-07:002020-08-23T01:53:30.378-07:00One thing of note is that I4554 (ZVEJ24) and I4435...One thing of note is that I4554 (ZVEJ24) and I4435 (ZVEJ13) cluster with Karelia HG instead of Latvia HG. I4436 (ZVEJ14) is closer to EHG but falls between LHG and EHG. According to amtdb these samples would just fall into early CCC (4200 BCE - 3900 BCE). Along with ZVEJ31 they could form an early Baltic CCC group. Norfern-Ostrobothnianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08786469674963515571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25017723604567825042020-08-22T08:56:55.333-07:002020-08-22T08:56:55.333-07:00The Comb Ceramic does seem to be useful - if not n...The Comb Ceramic does seem to be useful - if not necessary - for the Saami. It also makes more chronological for the source of the EHG ancestry in the region than just pure EHG. Any BOO ancestry would accompany the local Asbesthos Ware variant of the CCC in Lapland. <br /><br />Nganasan: 0.246±0.037<br />Poland_CordedWare.SG: 0.537±0.064<br />Latvia_MN_Comb_Ware.SG: 0.218±0.064<br />chisq: 13.622Norfern-Ostrobothnianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08786469674963515571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-83464454348622517272020-08-22T07:00:03.414-07:002020-08-22T07:00:03.414-07:00@Aram
Yeah, our ancient genomes from West Asia ar...@Aram<br /><br />Yeah, our ancient genomes from West Asia are still quite limited and the current methodologies have difficulties in calculating the exact proportions of ancestry. <br /><br />But - you will probably agree with this - the academic modern Armenian samples from Armenia are representative of the modern Armenian genetics overall irrespective of the difficulties in the calculations of Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-63490601038078553052020-08-22T03:47:06.356-07:002020-08-22T03:47:06.356-07:00Ancient samples from North Iraq and SE Turkey will...Ancient samples from North Iraq and SE Turkey will change a lot our understanding. I suspect very basal people were living in that region. Plain regionaregion Anatolians were affected by WHG. They also can mask any Steppe ancestry. That is why we have such a problems with correct measuring of Steppe. And we get such different results.Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-2489886614971938152020-08-22T03:29:45.567-07:002020-08-22T03:29:45.567-07:00Onur
I understand Your methodology. Simply the dif...Onur<br />I understand Your methodology. Simply the difference comes from the presence of CHG. 20% is masking Steppe. And the distances in Your model is higher. Mine is lower than 2% with just few samples. If You add Hajji Firuz and Arslantepe they will "eat" everthing else for Armenians.<br />As for Azerbaijan LC. It is Leyla tepe thus Chaff faced ware which means they have an influx Aramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717857095182763668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-89025963849114324252020-08-21T10:19:59.191-07:002020-08-21T10:19:59.191-07:00@Aram
Thanks for supporting my arguments on the G...@Aram<br /><br />Thanks for supporting my arguments on the Global25 issue. <br /><br />Before finishing the discussion of Armenian genetics, I want to point out that we actually know what is now the Republic of Azerbaijan did not preserve its modern Armenian-like (minus the steppe) Late Neolithic genetics long as already by the Late Chalcolithic times it had turned into something much more Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-84661527539558495892020-08-21T09:45:16.056-07:002020-08-21T09:45:16.056-07:00I checked the .anno file and Tamula1 & 3 have ...I checked the .anno file and Tamula1 & 3 have SNP coverage of 160,654 and 155,136 respectively, which isn't high quality, but there are other Baltic samples from the paper with less SNPs that are in the official datasheet. They seem to be at least useful to model Saami people, which would make sense in the context of Bolshoy and Kiukainen, as both formed on the basis of local CCC. <br /><Norfern-Ostrobothnianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08786469674963515571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-48772155541005292752020-08-21T08:56:35.315-07:002020-08-21T08:56:35.315-07:00@CrM
You make a lot of assumptions with the curre...@CrM<br /><br />You make a lot of assumptions with the currently quite limited ancient DNA data. Let's wait for the ancient genomes from historical Western Armenia. Anyway, the main reason I do not want to continue this discussion is that this thread is not about Armenian genetics but about Global25 as a whole, so let's focus on that.Onur Dincerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05041378853428912894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-82089324043335829742020-08-21T06:47:51.757-07:002020-08-21T06:47:51.757-07:00At least 50,000 out of the usual 1240K.
At least 50,000 out of the usual 1240K.<br /><br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4123559132014627431.post-25865568584387257792020-08-21T06:37:58.332-07:002020-08-21T06:37:58.332-07:00@Davidski
I see. What would be a good ballbark for...@Davidski<br />I see. What would be a good ballbark for the amount of SNPs that they would work as a sample? Norfern-Ostrobothnianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08786469674963515571noreply@blogger.com