In a recent
blog post announcing the end of the search for the late Proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland I wrote this:
But of course I2a has also been recorded in prehistoric samples from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. So, you might ask, why did the populations migrating out of the steppe belong to R1a and R1b, and why did some of them seemingly carry only R1a while others only R1b? This can be explained by local founder effects on the steppe due to patrilocality. Moreover, it's possible that some groups moving out of the steppe did carry high frequencies of I2a, but they're yet to enter the ancient DNA record.
Actually, in hindsight, such a population has probably already shown up in the ancient DNA record, via two Early Bronze Age (EBA) individuals from the Balkans in the
Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint:
Balkans_BronzeAge I2165: Y-hg I2a2a1b1b mt-hg T2f 3020-2895 calBCE
Yamnaya_Bulgaria Bul4: Y-hg I2a2a1b1b mt-hg ? 3012-2900 calBCE
Both samples are from burial sites in present-day South-Central Bulgaria. Apart from sharing I2a2a1b1b, they each pack a fair bit of Yamnaya-related ancestry and are dated to a very similar time period. Unlike Bul4, I2165 does not make the cut archaeologically as a Yamnaya sample, but he does come from a Tumulus (Kurgan-like) burial, so perhaps he's from a group influenced by Yamnaya?
By the way, the I2a2a1b1b lineage is also shared by Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE552, and as far as I can tell, the oldest individual sampled to date belonging to this line is Ukraine_Neolithic I1738, dated to 5473-5326 calBCE. So I2a2a1b1b appears to be a Pontic-Caspian steppe marker.
The same paper also includes the following individual from present-day Bulgaria dated to the start of the Late Bronze Age (LBA), which is roughly when the Mycenaeans appeared nearby in what is now Greece:
Bulgaria_MLBA I2163: Y-hg R1a1a1b2 mt-hg U5a2 1750-1625 calBCE
This guy is the most Yamnaya-like of all of the Balkan samples in Mathieson et al. 2017, and, as far as I can see based on his overall genome-wide results, probably indistinguishable from the contemporaneous Srubnaya people of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. He also belongs to Y-haplogroup R1a-Z93, which is a marker typical of Srubnaya and other closely related steppe groups such as Andronovo, Potapovka and Sintashta. So there's very little doubt that he's either a migrant or a recent descendant of migrants to the Balkans from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.
The presence of multiple individuals like this in the still rather spotty Balkan Bronze Age ancient DNA record suggests that this part of Europe experienced sustained and possibly at times large scale incursions of various peoples from the Pontic-Caspian steppe throughout the Bronze Age.
Here's one of the Principal Component Analyses (PCA) plots from Mathieson et al. 2017, edited by me to highlight the above mentioned three samples, as well as the anything but weak impact of gene flow from the Pontic-Caspian steppe on the Balkans during the Bronze Age. Just in case some of you are confused, I added an arrow pointing to the cluster that most of the Balkan Bronze Age samples are pulling towards.
Of course, many of us are now eagerly awaiting a paper on the genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans. The latter are one of the few attested Indo-European speakers from prehistory, so their genetic structure may prove pivotal in the Indo-European homeland debate.
I know for a fact that a couple of ancient DNA labs have been working on such a paper for a while now, but haven't heard anything about the results. However, just looking at the PCA above, I'd be shocked if the Mycenaean samples did not show a strong signal of gene flow from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. If so, the implications of this will be obvious.
Reference...
Mathieson et al.,
The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe,
bioRxiv, Posted May 9, 2017, doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/135616
See also...
Main candidates for the precursors of the proto-Greeks in the ancient DNA record to date
Steppe admixture in Mycenaeans, lots of Caucasus admixture already in Minoans (Lazaridis et al. 2017)
Speaks about the possibility of founder effect mentions the I2a samples with some Steppe Ancestry found on the Balkans but doesn't lose a single word about the Croatian J2b lineage which packs allot of Steppe ancestry too. Why? Maybe it would go against his female bride theory? A J samples packed with Steppe ancestry is a No-Go.
ReplyDeleteBoth of the Y-haplogroups in the blog post, I2a2a1b1b and R1a1a1b2, are present on the prehistoric Pontic-Caspian steppe.
ReplyDeleteNo sign of J2b yet. Get back to me when it shows up.
But haplogroup I2 can't also be a local haplogroup, which is common in Middle_Neolithic farmers (which in turn they got it from WHG)
ReplyDeleteIt can, but considering the presence of I2a on the Pontic-Caspian steppe, we should expect it in Yamnaya and Yamnaya-like individuals who look like they've migrated out of the steppe.
ReplyDeleteAnd so far we have two from the same place in Bulgaria. There will probably be a lot more from the Balkans.
Is it possible to say which prehistoric origin Slavic I2a-din has? Yamnaya? Globular Amphora?...
ReplyDeleteNo idea, you should ask Larry.
ReplyDeleteBulgaria_MLBA I2163 is full like CWC.
ReplyDeleteBulgaria_MLBA I2163 is full like CWC.
ReplyDeleteMore similar to Srubnaya IMO, plus it has the R1a-Z93 that CWC doesn't.
"Is it possible to say which prehistoric origin Slavic I2a-din has? Yamnaya? Globular Amphora?..."
ReplyDeleteThere is no aDNA evidence (yet) for the I2a line which led to the Slavic I2a. The closest (if very distant) relative so far documented is the Esperstedt Funnel Beaker L-161... The GAC I2a's and the steppe origin I2a's are all from a very distinct I2a line which has nothing to do with I2a-din (as you know). So we still wait. The Motala 12 HG (ca. mid-6th mill. BCE) does have L-147, but that is almost certainly a defunct M423 line, and does not lead to CTS10228. The best we can do for now is to assume that I2a-din in 3000BCE was hiding somewhere in Northern or Northwestern Europe...
Srubnaya and I2163 like CWC, but not Yamnaya. The Srubnaya culture was after I2163 so I2163 from synchronous to Sintashta-Potapovka culture.
ReplyDelete@David,
ReplyDelete"No sign of J2b yet. Get back to me when it shows up."
Kurti is right the J2b2a in Bronze age Croatia suggests J2b2a was a lineage of a Steppe group. His ADMIXTURE results look like a AnatoliaNeo+Yammaya(30%) mixture. It doesn't indicate he has the IranNeo-Natufian ancestry Southern Europeans today have which could explain J2b2a. But of course we'll have to wait to their genomes are made public to see if they really don't have IranNeo-Natufian stuff.
Does anyone know if the I2a2a1b lineage which has popped up in Eastern European hunter gatherers and later became dominate in Eastern European farmers is the same I2a2a-M223 which has a decent presence in modern Europe(especially Germany).
ReplyDeletea long list of random reasons leads me to wonder if...
ReplyDeletethere were I2a coastal HGs along the west shore of the Black Sea who were sedentary (cos lots of food in wetlands) and therefore pre-adapted to farming who (like the later Ertobolle culture HGs) managed to make the switch to farming when they came into contact with near/middle east farmers?
(nb some HGs must have made the switch to farming initially and I assume they were HGs who were already sedentary for some reason (often lakes/wetlands imo))
and these I2a neo-farmers were later displaced by PIE? (except in the mountains)
More realistically I2a farmers brought PIE to the Steppe.
ReplyDelete@Davidski
ReplyDelete"Both of the Y-haplogroups in the blog post, I2a2a1b1b and R1a1a1b2, are present on the prehistoric Pontic-Caspian steppe.
No sign of J2b yet. Get back to me when it shows up."
Is that so? But the absence of other branches of R1b l23 and R1a z93 doesn't seem to stop you from hypothesizing this.
"But of course I2a has also been recorded in prehistoric samples from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. So, you might ask, why did the populations migrating out of the steppe belong to R1a and R1b, and why did some of them seemingly carry only R1a while others only R1b? This can be explained by local founder effects on the steppe due to patrilocality. Moreover, it's possible that some groups moving out of the steppe did carry high frequencies of I2a, but they're yet to enter the ancient DNA record."
Quite some double standards here. Explaining with your words, the absence of a clade doesn't mean it wasn't there. Maybe they wil appear later. Considering that J1 has already been found in a mesolithic sample from Karelia what makes you think it is impossible? Or why do you think this Croatian J2b individual was very Steppe admixed?
Think about that for a second.
And just by the way the few Steppe admixed samples are far too few to have played any significant role on the Balkans at the Bronze Age.
ReplyDeleteAnd isn't the Bulgarian Steppe R1a z93 guy from the Iron Age? If he is. Than I assume he is either a Iranic nomad who entered the Balkans or he is a Thracian which again proves my theory that Thracian was the close cousin of the Indo_Iranian branch.
The R1a Z193 guy dates to I think 1500 BC.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the majority of I2a from "The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe" belonged to I2a2, yet the earliest I2a was I2a1 (8,753-8,351 BCE) in Serbia, but I2a1 was not frequent like I2a2. I would not give much attention to I2a presence in steppe or in 4,000-3,000 BCE IE migration along R1b and R1a, because perhaps, to me, the most interesting thing was the presence of R1b1a in Serbia (Iron Gates-HG) early as 9,221-8,548 BCE i.e. 9,500-5,841 BCE along I&I2a(2) and mtDNA hg-U5, hg-U4, hg-K1. Being solely focused on the 4,000-3,000 BCE IE migration, while ignoring presence of IE people in the Southeastern Europe double that age, is leading to wrong conclusions and perspective. It should be examined if 9,500-5,841 BCE R1b population is related to 4,000-3,000 BCE R1b population, did one arrive from Anatolia, while other from the steppe, among others.
ReplyDeleteAll the Copper Age / pre Yamnaya I2a2 to date is from Central Europe & the Balkans. So it instead looks like movement east
ReplyDelete@Rob
ReplyDeleteAll the Copper Age / pre Yamnaya I2a2 to date is from Central Europe & the Balkans. So it instead looks like movement east.
As per the PCA, the movement was from the east during the Yamnaya expansion. There's no mistaking that.
Also, there's I2a2a1b1 in Neolithic Ukraine at Dereivka and Volniensky, so Yamnaya got its I2a2a1b1b from the Neolithic Pontic Steppe.
@Romulus
More realistically I2a farmers brought PIE to the Steppe.
You must realize at some level that this is total bullshit.
@ Dave
ReplyDeleteA PCA can't evaluate the full extent of ancestry;
And where's the I2a2 from the eneolithic steppe ? Because there's tons of it in Central Europe and north Balkans
At present, it looks like a movement East
@Kurti
ReplyDeleteAnd just by the way the few Steppe admixed samples are far too few to have played any significant role on the Balkans at the Bronze Age.
Obviously total bullshit because a big portion of the currently sampled Balkan Bronze Age individuals clearly have steppe admixture.
You can't read a simple PCA?
And isn't the Bulgarian Steppe R1a z93 guy from the Iron Age? If he is. Than I assume he is either a Iranic nomad who entered the Balkans or he is a Thracian which again proves my theory that Thracian was the close cousin of the Indo_Iranian branch.
No he's dated to at least 1600 BCE. You can't even check this for yourself?
@Rob
ReplyDeleteA PCA can't evaluate the full extent of ancestry;
In this case it can. But we also have the ADMIXTURE bar graph to look at, so I have no doubt that my inferences are correct.
And where's the I2a2 from the eneolithic steppe ? Because there's tons of it in Central Europe and north Balkans
At present, it looks like a movement East
No it doesn't. Have a look at the Neolithic Ukrainian samples here. Two different sites have I2a2.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_Xxtc19_QTwWm58JlSuXQrDoFi_5aD_zNGoscqKgTm0/edit?usp=sharing
@ Dave
ReplyDeleteHe could be a 3rd generation migrant who's grandad married a steppe chick in exchange for some shiny metal,
Hence he's so east shifted
Yes there's Neolithic I2a2 in Ukraine, but none in the copper age steppe. So your inferences aren't supported by evidence, in fact they go against the evidence
@Rob
ReplyDeleteYes there's Neolithic I2a2 in Ukraine, but none in the copper age steppe.
Ulan IV from Kalmykia belongs to I2a2. Are you suggesting that he got this from the Balkans rather than a site much further east like, say, Dereivka?
You're free to suggest this, but obviously your argument would be very weak.
Heh, in fact Ulan IV belongs to I2a2a1b1b2.
ReplyDelete@Samuel Andrews
ReplyDeleteTry not to encourage stupidity and obsessive compulsive behavior from people like Kurti.
The Bronze Age sample from Croatia belonging to J2b2a has more farmer ancestry than steppe ancestry, so there's no reason why his Y-chromosome can't be from late Balkan farmers like Sopot/Lengyel.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/r1b-from-vucedol-period-hungary.html
CHG admixture was seeping into the Balkans from Anatolia at that time. So why would the J2b2a be from the steppe?
Dave
ReplyDeleteMaybe if you actually find some I2a2 in the eneolithic steppe and demonstrate it to be phylogenetically ancestral to Balkan I2a2, we might take your claims seriously
@Rob
ReplyDeleteMaybe if you actually find some I2a2 in the eneolithic steppe and demonstrate it to be phylogenetically ancestral to Balkan I2a2, we might take your claims seriously
I don't have to do that.
I've shown that there's a very strong case to expect lots of I2a2a1b1b in Early Bronze Age migrants from the steppe to the Balkans, and I have no doubt that future sampling of the ancient Balkans will back me up.
You're free to deny this, but you will be proven wrong.
| More realistically I2a farmers brought PIE to the Steppe.
ReplyDeleteYeah. It seems Indoeuropean farmers liked exotic women, see for example ANI163, Varna_Outlier.
@Apóstolos Papaðimitríu
ReplyDeleteIndoeuropean farmers
That's hilarious.
How about the Y-hg R1 and steppe admixture in Varna ANI153? Also brought by exotic women?
Be careful now when you answer the question genius; women don't carry Y-chromosomes.
How much Steppe does Varna ANI153 have (male, R1:M306)?
ReplyDeleteCompare it to ANI163 (a woman).
@Apóstolos Papaðimitríu
ReplyDeleteHow much Steppe does Varna ANI153 have (male, R1:M306)?
Compare it to ANI163 (a woman).
Makes no difference in such a small sample set. The overall evidence suggests that both men and women moved from the steppe into the Copper Age Balkans.
You're obviously not interested in what really happened. Like many people posting here you're more interested in pushing a version of events that you're more comfortable with.
The idea that Neolithic farmers spoke Proto-Indo-European makes no sense on linguistic grounds and also goes against the overall ancient DNA picture. You should be more honest with yourself. It's not like you're going to convince any reasonable person here that you're making sense. Why even bother?
@David,
ReplyDelete"CHG admixture was seeping into the Balkans from Anatolia at that time. So why would the J2b2a be from the steppe?"
In ADMIXTURE he only scores in a Yamnaya-centered, a Anatolia Neolithic-centered, and a WHG-centered components. He could have had extra CHG but we'll have to wait till the paper is published to know.
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"He could be a 3rd generation migrant who's grandad married a steppe chick in exchange for some shiny metal,
Hence he's so east shifted"
Are you talking about I2165, Bulgaria_BA, 3020-2895 calBCE.
Y-hg J2 is found in Neolithic and Bronze Age Central Europe and Bronze Age Balkans. There are no signs that it was also on the steppe until the Iron Age.
ReplyDelete@Samuel, Davidski, and Rob
ReplyDeleteI hunted meticulously for any signs of non-Yamna associated CHG seepage and saw very little. It's rather surprising. After all, that this paper covered the eastern Balkans, which is both more amenable to demogrpahic influx due to its less rugged nature and proximity to the Near East.
Instead, it seems to be the case that the Balkans either didn't see the kind of WHG resurgence Spain and the rest of Europe experienced and/or replacement by Anatolian farmers was more complete there.
So Rob, remember when you speculated on that kind of introgression taking place in pre-Bronze Age times in a previous post some two months ago? Seems you'll have to move the dial further forward in time. To sometime during late bronze/iron/medieval times and most likely in the east(given how "iberian"-like MontenegroBA was).
Dave said
ReplyDelete"Obviously total bullshit because a big portion of the currently sampled Balkan Bronze Age individuals clearly have steppe admixture."
yes a "big" portion Steppe admixed proves a large scale Indo European migration to Balkans. Listen to yourself.
"No he's dated to at least 1600 BCE. You can't even check this for yourself?"
So? You sound like 1600 BC is in the middle of Bronze Age. At best it is Late Bronze Age and the timing fits with the appearance of the first Iranic tribes. That individual is obviously a proto Thracian or Iranic dude lost in the Balkans.
@ Anthro
ReplyDeleteYes, quite possibly. Although none of the samples are from where the independent arm of CHG movement arrived (Thrace/ western Marmara & Greece).
But I'd be curious to see what the steppe shifted Varna female analyses like, becuase she is (to date) the earliest properly 'steppe' person sampled (earlier than Khvalynsk , etc).
@Anthro,
ReplyDeleteIf my eyes serve me right most Bronze age individuals from Bulgaria dating to about 3000 BC score 10-15% in the CHG/Iran-Neo centered components but score 0% in the Yamnaya-centered components.
@Kurti
ReplyDeleteyes a "big" portion Steppe admixed proves a large scale Indo European migration to Balkans. Listen to yourself.
The Balkan Bronze Age cluster is obviously stretching out towards Yamnaya. Kind of a big thing don't you think?
There was obviously a profound change taking place in the Balkans at the time as a result of migrations from the steppe.
Why wouldn't language change accompany this change in the genetic structure of Balkan populations? Care to answer without spouting any bullshit?
You sound like 1600 BC is in the middle of Bronze Age. At best it is Late Bronze Age and the timing fits with the appearance of the first Iranic tribes. That individual is obviously a proto Thracian or Iranic dude lost in the Balkans.
I said in the post that the Z93 sample dates to the Late Bronze Age and roughly to the start of the Mycenaean period. Obviously he's from the steppe because his genetic twins are on the steppe at the same time with a lot of Z93. It's all there in the post.
The other steppe-shifted samples are much older, with the Bulgarian Yamnaya sample dating to the Early Bronze Age. Pretty awesome huh?
Well well well, let an actual Indo-European Genome from Greece come out, then we will have a reference, to say which Hgs are Indo-European related and which are not likely. Alos a good impression on autosome .
ReplyDelete@ Sam
ReplyDelete"Are you talking about I2165, Bulgaria_BA, 3020-2895 calBCE."
Yes, although it was a satirical retort to David. My point was unless we have a clear genealogy or migration history, we cant ascertain clearly based on either autosome or haploid lineages who's from where.
But, for interest's sake, during the Eneolithic several regional subgroups and burial rites existed. By the Yamnaya period, only 2 were prevalent. One expanded from the Dniepper region, one from the northeast Balkans (post-Cernavoda culture). This could correlated with R1b & I2a2, albeit superficially.
@ Davidski
ReplyDeleteI receive from a friend of mine and I ask you, if you are so kind in answering us:
1 Ask the experts on eurogenesblog how the Yamnaya received 40% autosomal CHG dna from the Caucasus and no YDNA G.? The Caucasus is the origin place of the G haplogroup. They expect us to accept that the Yamnaya brought L51 to west Europe and we have only 18% CHG. The EBA Italians had no CHG at all. Some experts think that CHG is the only link we have with the Yamnaya and it could have been brought by females.
You and I know that Italy is the origin place of L51.
2
Gioiello
The BB radio carbon dates from the Netherlands samples are younger than the British BB dates.
@Kurti @Davidski
ReplyDeleteIt's intriguing that this MLBA "Bulgarian" sample shows such strong affinities with Srubna samples and may possibly validate the Thraco-Cimmerian hypothesis where Srubna represented the ancient Cimmerians/Thracians and gradually migrated into the Balkans (pressured by Iranian Scythians from the East). It's a little early for that though as the cultural movement peaks in the 9th-7th centuries BC.
How does this MLBA "Bulgarian" sample compare to the previous Bulgarian/Thracian samples released 2 years ago? As I recall, there was one sample labeled V2 that was from around 1300BC and another "Russian"-looking sample from around 500BC, both of which were upper class and possibly indicate of a persistent Thracian elite? The lower-class P192 sample from 400BC looked like a Sardinian IIRC.
Alternatively, if CHG is absent from the E. Balkans until the Iron Age, could the Dacians/Thracians have come from Anatolia and brought CHG with them? What little we know of the language makes this unlikely (closest to Lithuanian), but still.
That two cases of I2a2 from Bulgaria BA and the other in Ulan 4 belong to I2a2-L699 branch.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L699/
It's a little early for that though as the cultural movement peaks in the 9th-7th centuries BC.
ReplyDeleteWay too early for that.
But Mycenaeans had horse bits and chariots similar to those in Sintashta, so this individual may represent a population movement from Sintashta and Graeco-Aryan links.
@Samuel Andrews
ReplyDeleteHmmm Where are you seeing that? If you can, please send a tinypic link w/relevant context graphics.
Unless I missed something, the only significant non-Yamna CHG in Bronze Age Balkaners should simply be the CHG inherent to the EEF cocktail, not extra CHG.
Besides, 10% extra CHG would amount to ~ 20-30% total non-farmer associated Near Eastern ancestry(the other parts being Natufian-like and Anatolian f). Not a trivial number.
@ Dave
ReplyDelete"But Mycenaeans had horse bits and chariots similar to those in Sintashta, so this individual may represent a population movement from Sintashta and Graeco-Aryan links."
It could certainly be another layer of contact. There's no reason to assume that the PIEs 'divorced' irrevocably once they separated c. 3000 BC, or whichever date one favours.
@Gioiello,
ReplyDelete"They expect us to accept that the Yamnaya brought L51 to west Europe and we have only 18% CHG. "
18% is a lot, considering Neolithic Western Europeans had 0%. Yamnaya's main signal is ANE-rich EHG not CHG. The EHG-signal in Western Europeans is pretty strong.
"The EBA Italians had no CHG at all. Some experts think that CHG is the only link we have with the Yamnaya and it could have been brought by females."
The Bell Beaker individual from Northern Italy had 30% Yamnaya ancestry, about as much as modern Northern Italians. 30% Yamnaya=about 15% CHG.
@Rob
ReplyDeleteIt could certainly be another layer of contact. There's no reason to assume that the PIEs 'divorced' irrevocably once they separated c. 3000 BC, or whichever date one favours.
The Steppe_MLBA Z93 link might just be a layer of contact between far flung Indo-Europeans, or it may represent the arrival of the Mycenaean dynasty.
But if there are more than a handful of Mycenaean samples in this new paper, then comparing them to earlier mainland groups from Greece and to Minoans might reveal some very interesting things.
Everyone should understand here that the Balkans are going to be difficult to analyse in respect to steppe admixture. We're not going to have much certainty even when we get the genomes and look at them more carefully, so going just by the PCA and ADMXTURE in the paper as something definitive is quite misleading.
ReplyDeleteTo start with uncontroversial samples, we have those Malaks Preslavets ones from 5600 BC. There are a couple of individual there that have some 30-40% SHG-like admixture (I1108 and I1113). And then there's one individual who also have some small amount of CHG/Iran_N admixture (I2215). So this latter sample is the first one with some amount of pseudo-steppe admixture.
We have the Peloponnese Neolithic samples that show some CHG/Iran_N admixture, without any SHG-like admixture.
So we know 2 things with certainty: SHG-like admixture was entering Balkans populations since at least 5600 BC. And a lower amount of CHG/Iran_N admixture was already appearing back then, and increasing with time.
So what happens if you have an individual with 30% SHG (from local HGs) and then some 15% CHG coming from Anatolia? That 30% SHG can be 15% WHG + 15% EHG. And you add the 15% CHG and you get 30% Yamnaya. Even if the individual in question has no ancestry from Yamnaya proper.
This is going to make the analysis very uncertain. So everyone should be careful about it.
We'll have the Y-DNA to help in all these cases. And since these steppe groups were apparently very homogeneous and patriarchal, this should work quite well. If we have a big Yamnaya migration to the Balkans, it'll be easy since we'll find close to 100% males belonging to R1b-Z2103 (like Bell Beakers or CW groups) and there won't be much debate about it (unless we find early Z2103 outside the steppe, which is still a possibility, since the haplogroup predates Yamnaya by 1000 years - but let's not get ahead of ourselves and accept for now that Z2103 represents Yamnaya). I personally can't see the case for I2a being from Yamnaya as "very strong". The evidence is quite against it.
We've had this problem before with BR2 from Hungary. It has high SHG-like admixture, and then some 20-22% CHG admixture. So it can show up to 40% Yamnaya even if it's unlikely to have any Yamanaya admixture (being J2a1 and having the older BR1 which is very similar but almost lacks any CHG admixture makes this rather clear).
BTW, we have an Iron Age Bulgarian sample in this paper. Labeled in the PCA above as Balkans Iron Age, if anyone is interested in looking at where it plots compared to Bronze Age samples.
To start with uncontroversial samples, we have those Malaks Preslavets ones from 5600 BC. There are a couple of individual there that have some 30-40% SHG-like admixture (I1108 and I1113). And then there's one individual who also have some small amount of CHG/Iran_N admixture (I2215). So this latter sample is the first one with some amount of pseudo-steppe admixture.
ReplyDeleteIt'll be easy to tell so called pseudo-steppe admixture from real steppe admixture.
The distinction is already visible on the PCA above in the neat cline running to the steppe cluster that starts developing during the Balkan Copper Age.
I personally can't see the case for I2a being from Yamnaya as "very strong". The evidence is quite against it.
We have a Bulgarian Yamnaya sample with the same type of I2a as Ulan IV on the EBA Kalmykian Steppe.
Which way do you think the gene flow went, considering Ulan IV is typically Yamnaya, while the Bulgarian Yamnaya has admixture from the steppe?
I wish it would be easy to tell apart pseudo-Yamnaya from Yamnaya. But I don't think that we can do that reliably. After all, it's the same components mixed at different time in different places.
ReplyDeleteBut let's wait for the samples and we'll check and see.
As for I2a coming from Yamnaya, that's exactly the evidence that we have: 1 sample from late Yamnaya (maybe even Catacomb). Not very strong evidence, given there was already much of it in the Balkans and the rest of Europe.
The Bulgarian sample has steppe and Balkans admixture. I have no reason to think that I2a came from Yamnaya and not from the Balkan side. Not at this point.
Anyway, who says that Mycenaean Greece won't be mostly R1b-Z2103 or R1a-M417? Unless you already know that it was I2a, I don't see why going into this speculation about I2a being a steppe marker. Let's wait for the results and all will be clear.
@Alberto
ReplyDeleteYou have an excellent point, but the scenario of CHG being balanced out by EHG in a such a neat, seemingly lock-step fashion to produce the cline is not a parsimonious one.
Also, this CHG would not have arrived independently, but tethered to smth LevantNeo-like. Upon admixture with the locals, this would have produced a mini-spectrum. But what we see instead is a relatively tight Neolithic balkan cluster. The reason it's downshifted relative to other European farmers is because the replacement of local Hgs by anatolians was probably more thorough.
It is in modern Southern Italy where profound non-farmer associated MENA admixture is readily apparent on the PCA(which Razib missed by a mile in a recent post of his).
I added two regression lines to Balkans_BronzeAge samples (with and without I2163, both are practically identical):
ReplyDeletehttps://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_2DLPCg6syQ/WSLCNOvkXDI/AAAAAAAAAKc/JzfaBoHciDMOcwcFdj2b5G2ST6BlhdsVACLcB/s1600/BalkansBA.png
@ Alberto
ReplyDelete"And since these steppe groups were apparently very homogeneous and patriarchal, this should work quite well. If we have a big Yamnaya migration to the Balkans, it'll be easy since we'll find close to 100% males belonging to R1b-Z2103 (like Bell Beakers or CW groups) and there won't be much debate about it (unless we find early Z2103 outside the steppe, which is still a possibility, since the haplogroup predates Yamnaya by 1000 years - but let's not get ahead of ourselves and accept for now that Z2103 represents Yamnaya)".
Perhaps you know that I don't agree with the origin of R-L51 from the steppes and neither with the idea that all the Z2103 came from there, perhaps comprised my Z2110, old 6000 years as to YFull, even till 8000 as to me.
I wrote tons of letters about that, and that permits me to understand where a sample has to be put in the YFull tree also before its Big Y or anyway a good pack. See my theory that KMS67 is Western European and only from KMS75 (DYS531=14<15) is Eastern European linked with Samara:
_f3c. R1b-Z2103, Z2105 > Z2106 > Z2109 > KMS67
527684 Apostolos Zacharatos b.~1850 Kefalonia, Greece Greece R-KMS67
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 29 12-14-16-18 11 11 19-22 15 13 19 18 37-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 21 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 12 12
442223 Jacob Lentz b 1783 Ger d 1870 Montgomery Co., Ohio Germany R-KMS67
12 24 15 11 12-16 12 12 12 13 12 29 15 9-10 11 11 24 15 18 29 14-15-15-16 11 12 19-23 15 15 18 17 36-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 13 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 33 15 9 16 12 26 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 11 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 21 15 20 13 23 17 12 16 24 12 23 18 10 14 18 10 11 11
17992 Jacob Lentz b 1783 Wurttemburg, Germany Germany R-L150
12 24 15 11 12-16 12 12 13 13 12 29
_f3c1. R1b-Z2103, Z2105 > Z2106 > Z2109 > KMS67 > KMS75
181183 Unknown Origin R-KMS75
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30
329335 Mr. Raiman Russian Federation R-KMS75
12 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 15 20 16 37-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23-23 16 11 12 12 14 8 12 24 20 13 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 16 12 23 26 20 13 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 25 13 10 10 20 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 25 19 10 14 17 9 11 11
N83705 Southern Iraq, Arab [Arab] Iraq R-KMS75
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 16 19 31 14-15-17-17 11 11 19-21 15 15 17 17 36-36 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 9 10 11 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 12 13 11 11 12 12
oohhhh. So much talking about CHG. Looks like CHG is going to be very trendy in the rest of 2017. I suppose is that origin of PIE in 4900bc.
ReplyDelete@Davidsy.
ReplyDeleteWhen I said that there was a Gap of thousands of miles and thousands of years and therefore you couldn't really know if yamnaya really got off the shack and conquered western Europe or if other people and components added to CWC in that empty space contributed to it... you called me an Idiot. I might still be, but looks like by the new comment trend that others are too.
You're definitely an idiot. But you can choose not to be any time you wish.
ReplyDelete@Anthro Survey
ReplyDeleteI remember being involved in an internet cat fight with many commenters in this very comment section, years ago, about the more southern shifted position of modern Balkan populations compared to northern Europe in a standard PCA. Some people should remember what they were saying at the time, that J2 and E1b people came in the iron age or even later and replaced all the blissfully arian R1b and R1a hapologroups that were brought in the bronze age via the steppe. If anything the balkans are more northerly shifted today, and of course the more basal position and E1b1/J2 HGs were there since the neolithic. That exactly what you wouldn't have read in this very comment section some time in the past. Now, back to today's controversy. Razib is saying that there are hardly any evidence of the genetic picture of Italy and Greece has changed since the iron age. Now we have a very basal shifted pre-Greek sample, we also have bronze age and chalcolithic Anatolians who are very much Cypriot-like, and an upcoming paper will tell us more about Mycenaeans. I'm saying that we just need to wait, but the evidence are clearly going in one direction, and post bronze age population replacements are very rare.
The type of I2-M223 (L701) found in Yamnaya and Ukranian samples is found heavily among central and west Europeans, and other areas rich in R1b. In other words, they likely traveled together.
ReplyDelete@Dymtro, something is not right with the three Motala-HG samples dating. They are dated 5964-5638 BCE (I2a1b-M423), 5964-5629 BCE (I2a1-P37.2), 5721-5631 BCE (I2a1b2a1-L147.2), implying that all three probably are I2a1b2a1-L147.2 (I-CTS10228), however at YFull Tree this haplogroup subclade was formed 5300 YBP, with the oldest sample 6258 YBP, which if calculated YBP (6258 minus 1950), it results with the non-average oldest sample of I2a1b2a1-L147.2 to be 4308 BCE. The conclusion is that the samples "can not" be I-CTS10228 or happened archaeological mistake in dating method (i.e. the skeletons are at least 1000 years younger), because the archaeological dating of skeletons correlates (somewhat) with older haplogroup I-CTS4002, in short, there is an error by or archaeologists or geneticists, and I wonder if such case of discrepancies is also prevalent in other samples, and could these genetic results be used for correction of archaeological dating.
ReplyDelete@ AWood
ReplyDeletePossibly. But that type of M223 was also found in at least one of the GAC, possibly more with finer combing. Moreover, the peak M223 in ME Europe happens to be where non-Beaker groups persisted the longest (eg Schonberg culture). Not to mention the trove of Lipson data still needing sorting.
" crovata said...
ReplyDelete@Dymtro, something is not right with the three Motala-HG samples dating"
It seems that the problem is simpler. There was a discussion about this on Anthrogenica. Motala 12 was wrongly identified as I2a1b2a1 by the Mathieson/Reich 2017 paper simply because of the presence of L147.2, which ISOGG still considers a typical CTS10228 marker. ISOGG is only partly right, in that L147 does distinguish CTS10228 from full fledged L621 and also from CTS 4002. But L147 is otherwise a completely unstable marker, which appears all over the place. Motala 12, as properly analyzed by Genetiker, is now considered to be "pre-M423". Genetiker actually thought it might have been L621 (he found some SNP's usually associated with that level). But subsequent analysis by Yfull of another genome which was L161 ALSO found these allegedly L621 markers which proved beyond doubt that they belonged to an earlier level (M423). All in all then it seems that the L147 found in Motala 12 indicates that L147 was also present in a now defunct I2a1b clade which is "pre-M423" (it does not have all the expected M 423 markers but is "on the way". So it is very much a complete sub-branch of I2a1b and completely distinct from the groups which evolved into CTS 10228.
@AWood
ReplyDeleteHow can you say I2-M223 (L701) is found "heavily" in western Europe when it's so rare in Iberia and France, where its geographic distribution hints at Germanic settlement during the migration period? Seems unrelated, really
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png
Here is a brief/rough, outline list of the latest European R1b samples[14,000YBP-7000YBP]-combined with older European R1b to date. Dates are YBP-rough approximation!List does not include any European R1b-Yamnaya/Bell Beaker/Sarmatian/Vučedol samples.
ReplyDeleteVillabruna is the oldest so far I9030-14,000 YBP+/-
Iron Gates;Serbia
1] I5235-10,835+/-
2] I5237-10,425+/-
3] I5240-9,800+/-
Iron Gates; Romania
4] I4081-9,335+/-
Latvia
5] I4630-9,222+/-
Ukraine
6] I1734-9,202+/-
Iron Gates;Serbia
7] I4916-8,600+/-
8] S5772.E1.L1-8,450+/-
9] I4666-8,017+/-
10] I5232- 7,901+/-
Latvia;
11] I4626-7,689+/-
Russia;Samarra/Volga
12] I0124-7,614+/-
Latvia;
13] I4432-7,500+/-
14] I4434-7,500+/-
15] I4439-7,500+/-
16] I4436-7,500+/-
Spain; ELs Trocs
17] I0412-7,167+/-
Latvia;
18] I4628-7,027+/-
Ukraine;
19] I3718-7,100+/-
20] I4114-7,100+/-
21] S5883.E1.L1-7,100+/-
22] S5890.E1.L1-7,100+/-
23] S5829.E1.L1-7,100+/-
24] S5893.E1.L1-7,100+/-
@Davidski.
ReplyDeleteYou're definitely an idiot. But you can choose not to be any time you wish."
yes, definitely its obvious who is... :)
@Dymtro, thanks for answer, it makes sense.
ReplyDelete@a, as I said above, these results of R1b from Serbia are the biggest surprise. What was their autosomal DNA? Are their subclade related to Yamnaya R1b and much younger Yamnaya migration? Did they come from Anatolia or from the Eurasian Steppe? How to explain such an early and dominant presence of R1b in Iron Gates-HG? Did the population migration happened for much longer period of time, somekind of pre-cultural migration which preceded the cultural expansion and assimilation thousands of years after?
@ crovata
ReplyDelete"@a, as I said above, these results of R1b from Serbia are the biggest surprise. What was their autosomal DNA? Are their subclade related to Yamnaya R1b and much younger Yamnaya migration? Did they come from Anatolia or from the Eurasian Steppe?"
Being these samples at the same level of Villabruna R1b1a and some thousands of years later, I think that they came from the "Italian Refugium". I don't know if you like that or not, but, as Davidksi frequently says, "fattene una ragione".
Gioello;
ReplyDeletedefinitely:
Mas que merda de panca estes gajos tem com a porcaria das estepes da ucrania! chiça, não há pachorra!
crovata said...
ReplyDelete"What was their autosomal DNA?"
With the exception of a couple of outliers, they plot almost exclusively on a European West/East Hunter gather cline. A few months ago something interesting was said about R1b Villabruna[one of the twitter comments]; in hindsight now I understand what was meant.
" Are their subclade related to Yamnaya R1b and much younger Yamnaya migration? "
We will have to wait for the release of the results to parse the data, if possible.
"Did they come from Anatolia or from the Eurasian Steppe?"
No R1b to date has been found in Anatolia. On the other hand, oldest R* to date is Malta1 24,000YBP+/-
"Are their subclade related to Yamnaya R1b and much younger Yamnaya migration? "
Yamnaya sample Lopatino II, Sok River, Samara [I0443 / SVP 57] is negative for the marker found in many Yamanya/Bell Beaker L49+, L23+, PF6399+, L150+, L1353+, PF6509+, M269+, CTS12478+, L51-, Z2105- It is still well downstream from many of the European R1b samples that are between 7000-14000\ybp
" How to explain such an early and dominant presence of R1b in Iron Gates-HG?"
Villabruna is 3000-4000 years older[R1b-L754?]. Many areas/regions within Europe that could harbor ancient R1-R1a/R1b samples still need to tested.
"Did the population migration happened for much longer period of time, somekind of pre-cultural migration which preceded the cultural expansion and assimilation thousands of years after?"
Good question? From a strictly geographical point of view; it would look like variance of both modern samples and ancient samples 14,000YBP-present are being confirmed in Europe. Only further testing will confirm or refute the data that is being compiled in order to parse the movement across Europe.
Romulus said...
ReplyDelete"More realistically I2a farmers brought PIE to the Steppe."
I have no opinion on the language part but yeah, when i say they may have been displaced by the PIE (culture) i mean after farmers encroached on the steppe, catalyzed the genesis of the PIE (culture) and then the PIE (culture) got too strong and displaced them.
Anyway, hopefully those two new colors: orange in Iberia and teal part two will shed some light.
@AWood,
ReplyDelete"The type of I2-M223 (L701) found in Yamnaya and Ukranian samples is found heavily among central and west Europeans, and other areas rich in R1b. In other words, they likely traveled together."
Central-East European farmers apparently carried that form of I2 at a higher frequency.
Don't know about farmers, but looking at the highest resolution GAC sample, the I2a in Yamnaya seems to be different from that in GAC
ReplyDeleteGlobular_Amphora_Ukraine ILK002 I2a2a1b2
Yamnaya_Bulgaria_outlier Bul4 I2a2a1b1b
Yamnaya_Kalmykia (Ulan IV) RISE552 I2a2a1b1b2
And the Tumulus Balkans EBA sample is same as Yamnaya...
Bulgaria_EBA I2165 I2a2a1b1b
Ok, yep. Eupedia's page on I2 says the type Yamnaya had is rare today.
ReplyDeleteThe most popular form of I2a2 today is I2a2a1b2a-L801. Some of the Iron Gate HGs and GAC farmers belonged to I2a2a1b2-Z161. The Ukraine HGs, some Bulgarian farmers, and Yamnaya belonged to I2a2a1b1-L701.
By the way, to Romulus and friends...
ReplyDeleteThe Yamnaya I2a2a1b1b didn't arrive on the steppe with farmers, because it's present in steppe foragers from the Mesolithic and Neolithic with no farmer or even basal admixture.
That should have been obvious from the outset.
@Steppe Haters,
ReplyDeleteLast year you guys proposed the Steppe signal in LNBA Europe was caused by ANE-rich European hunter gatherers and CHG-rich migrants from West Asia.
Well, the data in Mathieson 2017 makes that extremely unlikely. European hunter gatherers west of Ukraine and South of Fenno-Scandinavia were overwhelmingly WHG. There were no rouge EHGs running around in Germany which could explain Corded Ware.
Furthermore there were no rouge CHGs running around in Europe either. The only place there was a lot of CHG ancestry was in the Steppe.
In 3000 BC, Yamnaya was the most genetically unique group in Europe. Just about everyone else in Europe, as far east as Bulgaria, rested somewhere on the WHG-EEF cline. There's no modern European genetic outlier who is even close to equivalent to how much of an outlier Yamnaya was.
Considering how unique genetically Yamnaya was, where the heck do you think the loads of EHG and CHG in Bell Beaker and Corded Ware and Vucedol and Unetice is from?!
Y'all need to finally just admit that there was a massive migration from the Steppe into Europe that eventually affected every piece of land in Europe except for Sardinia.
Alberto
ReplyDeletePeloponnese Neolithic's CHG/Iran can be explained by Tepecik Ciftlik like migration via South coastal route toward Greece. This Peloponnesians looks younger than Tepecik.
@all
Iron Gate HGs R1bs are amazing but non of them is P297+. The only place in Europe where we have aDNA P297+ is the East Europe. Correct me if I am wrong.
One of the biggest shockers of 2017 is ancient DNA indicates that R1b1a-L754 is a WHG lineage and that it was quite popular throughout Mesolithic Europe. That would make both my mtDNA and Y DNA originally WHG ;) WHG could have had R1b due to ANE admixture, we'll have to wait for more ancient DNA.
ReplyDeleteIf R1b1a was all over Mesolithic Europe, why wouldn't another form of R1 have been in other locations like Turkey or the Caucasus or Iran? Yes the first Y DNA results from Turkey, Caucasus, Iran lack R1 but so did the first Y DNA results from WHG.
And now it seems pretty likely that EHG had some Y DNA I. Would if I1 is a EHG-Steppe lineage?
@ Aram
ReplyDelete"Iron Gate HGs R1bs are amazing but non of them is P297+. The only place in Europe where we have aDNA P297+ is the East Europe. Correct me if I am wrong".
Do you really want to be corrected?
1) The R1b1a of the Villabruna clan expanded everywhere in Europe after the Younger Dryas.
2) The P297+ expanded the same, but where did the ancestor of the subclades live? Where we find its descendants: M73* and M269*.
Where are they to-day? In Western Europe: only Western Europe has R-M73 (xM478), and M269 is massive in Italy and Western Europe.
Your defeat is in what one of you says: Samuel Andrews: "One of the biggest shockers of 2017 is ancient DNA indicates that R1b1a-L754 is a WHG lineage and that it was quite popular throughout Mesolithic Europe. That would make both my mtDNA and Y DNA originally WHG ;) WHG could have had R1b due to ANE admixture, we'll have to wait for more ancient DNA.
If R1b1a was all over Mesolithic Europe, why wouldn't another form of R1 have been in other locations like Turkey or the Caucasus or Iran? Yes the first Y DNA results from Turkey, Caucasus, Iran lack R1 but so did the first Y DNA results from WHG.
And now it seems pretty likely that EHG had some Y DNA I. Would if I1 is a EHG-Steppe lineage?"
And who did say that from these last ten years?
About I1* it is only one man sprung out 4500 years ago as to YFull or 6000 as to Ken Nordtvedt. Where is the massive migration?
@Ariel
ReplyDeleteWell, j2a and e1b of any kind are indeed quite rare in pre-Iron Age europe.
Again, I just think Neolithic migrants in the Balkans replaced the locals to a greater degree than elsewhere. That's prolly why they are more downshifted than Sardinians, Neolithic Ukranians, Neolithic Brits, Neolithic Iberians, etc. and cluster right with Anatolian farmers.
I should stress that this probably was more the case in the east(which this paper covers). BA sample from Montenegro clustered with modern Iberians, indicating admixture of steppe with a more-WHG, more Sardinian-like population.
Razib needs to examine the boring, but no-less-transformational demogrpahic shifts that don't make it into the history books. It isn't that we don't have evidence----we do, even if somewhat circumstantial. Maju and someone on athnrogenica discussed it in reference to circumcision in south italy during the bronze age. It's also very clear that the statistically significant basal shift in S.Italy on the PCA cannot be explained w/out a post-neolithic introgression.
@ Anthro
ReplyDeleteMinor correction on important details: the ANFs did not "replace" the local WHG. Rather, the was not much WHG in the Balkans compared to areas further north, apart from certain microregions.
@Rob
ReplyDeleteAh, ok. But, yes, that would have the same effect mathematically.
If anyone's interested, the Rai et al. and Harvard studies on South Asian ancient DNA are part of this project.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.shh.mpg.de/306992/Roberts-Biomolecularprehistory
Gioiello
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know East Europe is in Europe also. :)
I will admit my error if You show the ID number of aDNA from C and W Europe which is positive for P297.
As far as I can see they did not test any older samples than the Mesolithic so the Late Upper Palaeolithic is still up for grabs in Southeastern and Eastern Europe.
ReplyDeleteSo yes more Samples from a bit earlier than 10 000 BCE will throw some light on the R1b and R1a issue...
@ Aram
ReplyDeleteOf course I have always spoken of "Europe", and also when I theorized my "Italian Refugium", I said that I believed that R1b1 had wintered in a Refugium south of theAlps, but anyway expanded after the Younger Dryas in every direction, and I considered above all the Balkans as part of the same refugium, above all when Adriatic was submerged, but I thought that Italy was warmer like to day, above all the Tyrrhenian coast. I have always spoken also of the link between Italy/Alps and the Caucasus: I thought that R1b1 was in Italy rather than the Caucasus because Italy has 4 haplotypes of R1b1-L389 and the Caucasus only one and derived from an Italian cluster (YCAII=23-23 <18-23).
About P297 I think that we'll find in the aDNA many lines, now extinct, as the most part of the lines except one, and my thought is that this line was in Italy or Western Europe from the survived subclades, but of course we need the aDNA proof.
All those who were against me, and banned me, didn't ever accept what I said, that people went and come. They believed that people only went from Middle East (or now from Samara) to Italy and Western Europe. This is the ideology of those who hates Italy, above all because had something to do with Romans (and you know that Romans annihilated whole peoples), but they have had another defeat from one who is pride of descending from them.
My uneducated guess is that Afontova Gora 3 like individuals roamed the Steppe from the Romania to Southern Siberia between 20 000 and 14 000 years ago.
ReplyDeleteAre there any samples from the Kopova Cave or surroundings that can be tested ?
ReplyDeleteDave , what are you doing , you know its not good for your blood pressure ;D
ReplyDeleteAncient DNA from South Asia will itself be fairly boring.
ReplyDeleteThe most interesting thing about it will be the hysterical reactions of the Out of India and anti-Steppe crowds.
No it will put Steppe theory out of map , then it will be quite amusing how the steppe clowns invent new ideas...
ReplyDeleteBut it is not the only one.
@Nirjhar,
ReplyDeleteIsn't Steppe theory already out of the map? what brought it back?
Is it another dead cat bounce?!?
Ha ha! Steppe Theory?! I've already moved on to OOM, the 'Out Of Madagascar' theory.
ReplyDeleteWell it will be all pretty much over with those Greek and Indian data , so good will be if SE Anatolian comes . Real nice...
ReplyDeleteSE Anatolian? Not in the pipeline is it?
ReplyDeleteDavidski said...
ReplyDeleteBy the way, to Romulus and friends...
"The Yamnaya I2a2a1b1b didn't arrive on the steppe with farmers, because it's present in steppe foragers from the Mesolithic and Neolithic with no farmer or even basal admixture. That should have been obvious from the outset."
A "what if" introgression with farmers model would imply (imo) there were varieties of pre-existing ydna I2a HGs around the north and west shores of the Black Sea and the ones on the western shore either adopted aspects of farming (like Ertobolle later) or were incorporated into an expanding farmer group.
so for example ydna Inorth and ydna Iwest, where Iwest gets caught up in some way with the farmer expansion
#
i've read that ydna I and J split from ydna IJ along an east-west line - given the Caucasus has a lot of J maybe the Black Sea is the dividing line?
if there was an Inorth and Iwest then given the geography it wouldn't be surprising if Inorth was influenced more by the steppe and Iwest more by Anatolia.
Why would the Myceneans not just cluster with the majority of the Bronze age Balkan samples instead of that 1 R1a1a outlier from Bulgaria? The normal bronze age Balkan samples do pull eastward and northward toward the Bronze age steppe compared to the Neolithic Balkan samples after all. I just hope they are not weird like the Bronze age Anatolian samples were. If the Myceneans are even just similar to the normal Bronze age Balkan samples that will pretty much clinche the steppe hypothesis IMO. However If they are like the Anatolians that will just throw a wrench in the whole PIE question and make things all the more confusing.
ReplyDelete@ArchHades
DeleteThey may very well turn out to be "weird". My intuition tells me Mycenaean society was characterized by a great deal of elite dominance and that the ancestors of these elites were in largely similar to the "diluted" Bronze Age balkan samples.
So yeah, they may very well turn out to be the Feyli Kurds of Europe, if even that.
@Karl_K
ReplyDeleteExactly! If those H. Erectus samples could cross the Wallace line you can be sure H. S. Sapiens crossed the oceans.
Sammy,
ReplyDelete"Considering how unique genetically Yamnaya was, where the heck do you think the loads of EHG and CHG in Bell Beaker and Corded Ware and Vucedol and Unetice is from?!"
From bride-swapping of course - leveling the WHG in EHG as well as vice-verca. Not to mention WHG in CHG and vice verca. And CHG in EHG? Not to mention EHG in CHG.
Just as WHG within NEHG and NEHG amongst WHG - from Carelia to China, tour and retour, no later than 7.500 BP.
If you can't prove causation rather than relation, only - by hands-on evidence - big letters and inuendoes are nothing but misplaced.
So far we have no battle- or boat-axes within the Yamna Horizon - nor any chariots.
The magnitude of the "Corded Ware Horizon" - from Fatyanovo-Balanovo to Säräisniemi-Narva-Neman and the European Beaker cultures - shows Single Graves and Battle/Boat-axes spreading along Volga River as well as Vistula and the Rhine - from northern Scanianvia to the foothills of the Alps and Carpathians.
And nowhere do we find the chariots that's supposed to have rolled all over the European steppes and into C and NW Europe. Thus you have a case where the lack of evidence can be used as evidence for the need of more evidence - and nothing else.
# "One of the biggest shockers of 2017 is ancient DNA indicates that R1b1a-L754 is a WHG lineage and that it was quite popular throughout Mesolithic Europe."
If not R1b1a proves that "farming" in Europe is older than the old hypos suggest. In that case you better redefine your term "mesolithic" to "neolithic" - to level the age of "Anatolian Neolithic" with European Neolithic".
# "That would make both my mtDNA and Y DNA originally WHG ;) WHG could have had R1b due to ANE admixture, we'll have to wait for more ancient DNA."
Who would become ancestral to the first neolithic farmers (R1a/b) if not some mesolithoic HG?
# "If R1b1a was all over Mesolithic Europe, why wouldn't another form of R1 have been in other locations like Turkey or the Caucasus or Iran?"
IF the R1b ever was "mesolithic" - rather than a clean-cut marker of the first cattle-farming, lactose-persistent neolithic?
# "And now it seems pretty likely that EHG had some Y DNA I. Would if I1 is a EHG-Steppe lineage?"
Oldest known I1 - so far - is a 7.500 year old navigator from the Western Baltics, with I1-M253, neighbouring the I2's from Motala and Gotland. Would that imply that the I1 steppe-lineage have a "WHG" origin?
@Davidski:
ReplyDeleteA paper on Phillistine DNA is coming out this year. Be on the lookout.
@batman,
ReplyDelete"From bride-swapping of course - leveling the WHG in EHG as well as vice-verca. Not to mention WHG in CHG and vice verca. And CHG in EHG? Not to mention EHG in CHG."
In genomes from Chalcolithic Europe CHG only existed in Russia. There were no CHGs in Germany or Scandinavia or France or Britain or Estonia. There weren't even any pure EHGs west of Russia.
The only explanation for loads of CHG and EHG all over LNBA Europe is migration from Russia. And did the EHG-CHG ratio in LNBA Europe become the same everywhere and identical to Yamnaya if there was no migration?
"If you can't prove causation rather than relation, only - by hands-on evidence - big letters and inuendoes are nothing but misplaced."
Our only Steppe genomes come from Eastern Yamnaya! That's why we have no absolute, irrefutable prove of migration from Russia.
The CHG and EHG in LNBA Europe alongside R1b L151 and R1a M417 though is all the prove we need.
"And nowhere do we find the chariots that's supposed to have rolled all over the European steppes and into C and NW Europe."
Well obviously they didn't need chariots to migrate across most of Europe in 500 years or so. The Steppe migration happened, just deal with it guys.
@Arch Hades
ReplyDeleteWhy would the Myceneans not just cluster with the majority of the Bronze age Balkan samples instead of that 1 R1a1a outlier from Bulgaria?
Who claimed that? I didn't.
What I said was that the Z93 sample (not really an outlier, because he forms a very neat cline along with Balkan Yamnaya, Vucedol and most other Balkan BA samples) might represent the arrival of the horse/chariot complex in the southern Balkans, and related admixture in Mycenaeans.
I have no idea how much of this admixture will be in the sampled Mycenaean groups. We might find one Sintashta clone in one of the grave shafts that has Sintashta horse bits as grave goods, or we might not. The Sintashta-related admixture might be more evenly spread out in the Mycenaean elite, or even across their whole society.
My thoughts at the moment are that the proto-Mycenaeans arrived in the Balkans with Yamnaya, and I think it's pretty clear from the PCA above that if not for the really spotty sampling of the EBA Balkans in this paper, we'd see a massive surge of Yamnaya ancestry into the Balkans during the EBA.
I think that the horse/chariot complex had a profound impact on Mycenaean culture, but that it was a secondary layer of steppe influence in the Mycenaeans.
@ Dave
ReplyDelete"My thoughts at the moment are that the proto-Mycenaeans arrived in the Balkans with Yamnaya, and I think it's pretty clear from the PCA above that if not for the really spotty sampling of the EBA Balkans in this paper, we'd see a massive surge of Yamnaya ancestry into the Balkans during the EBA"
This is rather unsubstantiated speculation
"Yamnaya " ancestry existed in the east Balkans 1500 years before Yamnaya ; and that's notable from but a measly 4 copper age samples. They haven't even sampled other copper Age cultures like Cernavoda and Cotofeni.
"Yamnaya" ancestry existed in the east Balkans 1500 years before Yamnaya.
ReplyDeleteIt didn't. You're confusing Khvalynsk-like ancestry with Yamnaya ancestry.
The Khvalynsk type of ancestry isn't part of the BA Balkan-Yamnaya cline.
No it's on the same cline ; and it's before even Khvalynsk
ReplyDeleteObviously they're not on the same cline.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a matter of opinion.
Err Dave there one Varna directly under a red square BA Balkans individual in a dead straight line to Yamnaya
ReplyDeleteGo on then, draw the cline that more or less shows steppe admixture in the Varna samples.
ReplyDeleteLet's see if it ends up near Yamnaya and Balkan Yamnaya instead of EHG/Khvalnsk.
According to the paper Varna and Trypolie have 10% EHG but no CHG.
ReplyDeleteAnthroSurvey said:
ReplyDelete| They may very well turn out to be "weird". My intuition tells me Mycenaean society
| was characterized by a great deal of elite dominance and that the ancestors of these | elites were in largely similar to the "diluted" Bronze Age balkan samples.
| So yeah, they may very well turn out to be the Feyli Kurds of Europe, if even that.
Did you always have that intuition? If not what has changed?
Sorry that's not really correct, the Varna Outlier has 40% "Steppe" ancestry and the Trypolie outlier has 21%.
ReplyDeleteCalling something an outlier when it's 1/4 samples is a bit presumptuous...
@ Dave
ReplyDeleteAs marked https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0vOMPuFTfjwbG1JRFZoek5UV3M
It's ANI163
The one shifted toward Khvalynsk is I2181 (Fig 1)
So, yeah, the earliest 'steppe ancestry' individual is from the East Balkans, not the steppe, which were still 'EHG" at this stage (4500 BC).
@ Sam
ReplyDeleteFirst you say "In genomes from Chalcolithic Europe CHG only existed in Russia. There were no CHGs in Germany or Scandinavia or France or Britain or Estonia. There weren't even any pure EHGs west of Russia."
Then you say, " Our only Steppe genomes come from Eastern Yamnaya! That's why we have no absolute, irrefutable prove of migration from Russia."
So CHG can only have come from Russia, but we don;t have absolute proof of the said migration because we only have data from Russia.
Hhmmm that's a noggin -scratcher.
@Rob
ReplyDeleteOne individual doesn't make a cline.
Draw the cline of steppe admixture for all of the Varna samples.
I'm not claiming *all* were on the clime. I said "steppe" Admixture already existed in 4500 BC, which it plainly does. You might wish to pay more attention in future.
ReplyDeleteNow if there's one there's more, and if there's one, then it "exists".
It further means that the Balkans already had the diversity required to explain that seen in the Bronze Age patterns. Of course, this is not to say mobility between the steppe and adjacent regions ever stopped.
@Rob
ReplyDeleteThere are two Balkans/Steppe clines on that PCA that make sense genetically, chronologically and archaeologically. Here they are...
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gpo-jpYFsY0/WST-FhAWHMI/AAAAAAAAFpU/VISsvervHfQ34fSBLM7c1KOIkLMAxxhTwCLcB/s1600/Steppe_clines.png
You're using the position of one sample in your argument. I'm using patterns based on many samples.
Question: why should a single Balkan Chalcolithic sample show ancestry typical of the much later Yamnaya when other closely related samples do not?
I dont think the Myceneans having chariots means that much for their ancestry...after all, Bronze age Anatolian groups had chariots but the Anatolian groups sampled so far yield no relation to Sintashta. I guess we shale see. I hope these studies of Myceneans actually do exist and are not just rumors.
ReplyDeleteArchy boy, Those Greeks will show great affinity with Near East , rest assured...
ReplyDelete@Arch Hades
ReplyDeleteMycenaeans not only had chariots, they had horse bit designs that were direct copies of earlier designs from Sintashta burials near the Urals.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=juivCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=mycenaean+shaft+grave+eurasian+steppe&source=bl&ots=f-nG5YrubA&sig=g_8Si5liPeXa_nHYODAE3JOCRG0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZycqx0IfUAhXMoJQKHSm-CfwQ6AEIPzAH&authuser=1#v=onepage&q=mycenaean%20shaft%20grave%20eurasian%20steppe&f=false
And your Anatolian argument doesn't make sense anyway, since those three EBA Anatolians are more likely to be non-IE Hattians than IE Hittites.
Hattians were probably originally from the Caucasus, not the steppe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians
So David thinks Z-93 will be there in Mycenaean buahahahahahaha...
ReplyDeleteThey will be similar to their Anatolian brothers .
The impression I've gotten is that Slavic-influenced Greeks have 30% Steppe ancestry while maybe more pure Greeks have only 15% Steppe ancestry.
ReplyDeleteThere is no popular Steppe R1 lineage in Greece like there is in other IEs. Maybe Steppe IEs made a small impact on Greece.
@Nirijhar007,
R1a Z93 and EHG ancestry in SC Asians basically proves the Steppe hypothesis. Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Celtic, and Germanic can all be traced genetically to the Steppe. I'll be really surprised if the same isn't true for Greek.
@ Dave.
ReplyDeleteYour lines are a bit arbitrary. BUt whatever
The point is there is a CHG/EHG admixed individual *in the Balkans* at a time when such ancestry has not yet been recorded *even on the steppe itself*. Moreover, there is also a Vucedol individual, haplogroup G, who is steppe admixed, on the very same cline, and dates to 3000 BC, which is *at the same time as Yamnaya*. Thirdly, the fact that other Copper Age Balkans individuals lie rather along a cline toward Khvalynsk is merely yet more support that EHG/ CHG was present in the Balkans. And the post-3000 BC 'Bronze Age' individuals fall neatly within your two pretty lines.
It means the key regions of relevance are the East Balkans / NW Pontic region and Caucasus, with the steppe being a volatile transit point & population sink.
About Myceneans
ReplyDeleteThey could probably lie on, both, an axis of the BA Balkans - steppe, and one with BA Anatolia - Iran. So we'd be back to square one with linguistic arguements. So we would need South Asia & Hittite data.
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"It means the key regions of relevance are the East Balkans / NW Pontic region and Caucasus, with the steppe being a volatile transit point & population sink."
CHG is an ancestor of Yamnaya but Chalcolithic Balkan outliers aren't. The Balkans contributed nothing or very little to the Steppe.
"Steppe" is a fusion of EHG and CHG, there's no significant impact from the Balkans(which was probably only on a WHG-EF cline).
"Thirdly, the fact that other Copper Age Balkans individuals lie rather along a cline toward Khvalynsk is merely yet more support that EHG/ CHG was present in the Balkans. And the post-3000 BC 'Bronze Age' individuals fall neatly within your two pretty lines.
"
The Steppe signal in the BA Balkans didn't form due to inter Balkan migration. If you take a close look at the Balkan BA genomes it becomes clear that pull towards the Steppe they make on the PCA is due to Steppe migration into the Balkans.
Only three of the BA genomes from Bulgaria have Steppe ancestry. One is from the Yamnaya culture(Bul4). The next is I2165 who was buried in a Kurgan. The next is I2163 who carried R1a Z93 and was buried in a Kurgan.
The other Balkan BA genomes with Steppe ancestry all come from Croatia. The oldest date to about 2600 BC and belonged to the Vucedol culture which some believe is a descendant of Yamnaya. One Vucedol individual carried R1b-Z2103. Three later Croatian genomes which date to 1700-900 BC carry Steppe ancestry a swell.
I see everybody forgot about Sredny Stog. When we look at the spread of animal domestication it clearly ends up first in Sredny Stog before Khvalynsk and Yamnaya. It is also proposed that Yamnaya formed due to a Sredny Stog Migration into Khvalynsk.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe Sredny Stog was more Yamnaya like than Khvalynsk and thus the confusion.....After all those Mesolithic samples at Derievka is clearly in later Sredny Stog territory.
@ Sam
ReplyDeleteMore rubbish
Vucedol isn't descended from Yamnaya; it is contemporary to it. Do you understand basic arithmetic /: time ?
"CHG is an ancestor of Yamnaya but Chalcolithic Balkan outliers aren't. The Balkans contributed nothing or very little to the Steppe.
"
Hard to understand what your even attempting to communicate . But either way your incorrect as (a) a certain subgroup of movements could have occurred toward the steppe from the Balkans, with rapid intermarriage. (B) what I was actually saying is that the key regions are Balkans and Caucasus which together can explain the entire diversity of BA Europe
The further pull toward the steppe was obviously due to marrying EHG women.
Even if I have a similar analysis as Rob about the importance of Balkans and Caucasus as contributors to the Steppe population, to explain Yamba admixture, I am not agree with his conclusion. I think the key factor is in the Steppe with an EHG population, and with wives (mostly) coming from Balkans and Caucasus (more from the later). It's the simpliest explanation for the uniparental markers, the level of CHG, and the drift toward Anatolian_N/Levant_N. A mix between EBA steppe cultures is also a key factor in the process.
ReplyDeleteFolker
ReplyDeleteThanks !
That you disagree please me. It means I'm right
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"what I was actually saying is that the key regions are Balkans and Caucasus which together can explain the entire diversity of BA Europe "
The ancient Balkans can't explain all diversity in LNBA Northern Europe.
Ancient DNA documents that LNBA(2600-2300 BC) British Isles, Scandinavia, Germany, and Baltic States had something like 30-40% EHG and 20-30% CHG.
Those EHG and CHG percentages can't be explained by ancestry from the ancient Balkans.
EHG had a weak presence in the Balkans. Balkan hunter gatherers had hardly any EHG and Balkan farmers had a tiny tiny fraction of their EHG.
LNBA Northern Europeans had more EHG and CHG than the Balkan Chalcolithic outliers did. People like those outliers did not give LNBA Northern Europe its EHG and CHG.
Yamnaya fits the bill perfectly for Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, and Vucedol. No ancient genome from the Balkans can explain the change which occurred in Northern Europe after the Neolithic.
In the case of Corded Ware the face a few of the Corded Ware genomes are identical genetically to Yamnaya there should be no dispute about the origins of Corded Ware. Plus paternal relatives of Corded Ware; Srubnaya and Poltvaka outlier, are documented on the Steppe.
@Nirjhar007
ReplyDelete“So David thinks Z-93 will be there in Mycenaean”
We have to look into Altaic borrowings from IE to determine the original language of Z-93 like this one:
http://s22.postimg.org/r67juwmi9/screenshot_225.png
We know that Tocharians had contacts with Slavs, maybe Altaics as well. Sintashta and Andronovo are autosomaly close to Eastern Slavs. Indo-Iranians are autosomaly more related to Yamnaya according to recent publications.
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"with rapid intermarriage."
The spread of Steppe genes in LNBA Northern Europe didn't occur because of inter marriage, it occurred because of migration.
Just think about it. In 3000 BC no one west of Russia had any significant Steppe ancestry. In 2300 BC most people from Estonia to Ireland had 50%+ Steppe ancestry. How could that not be the result of migration?
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"The further pull toward the steppe was obviously due to marrying EHG women. "
Now the motivation for your statements is clear. It's sick how the opinion of posters here is so often determined by ego and emotion not the facts.
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"So CHG can only have come from Russia, but we don;t have absolute proof of the said migration because we only have data from Russia"
We do have absolute proof of migration, it's in the genomes of LNBA Europeans. What I meant to say is we don't have R1a M417* or R1b L151* from the Steppe yet because we only have Y DNA from Eastern Yamnaya. Well, actually we have several examples of R1a M417* from Corded Ware which is confirmed to be an immigrant from the Steppe.
@ Sam
ReplyDelete"Just think about it. In 3000 BC no one west of Russia had any significant Steppe ancestry. In 2300 BC most people from Estonia to Ireland had 50%+ Steppe ancestry. How could that not be the result of migration?"
I'm not talking about Ireland for Pete's sake
An individual from Varna had "significant steppe ancestry" . This is WEST of Russia and BEFORE 3000 BC.
Really you're a special kind of stupid
"
@Rob,
"The further pull toward the steppe was obviously due to marrying EHG women. "
Now the motivation for your statements is clear. It's sick how the opinion of posters here is so often determined by ego and emotion not the facts."
It's called satire. Obviously lost on you. Yep only steppe dudes could marry wives.
No, the only sick people are morons like you
@Rob,
ReplyDeleteI can confidently tell you European mtDNA is more EEF than anything else. It doesn't look like EHG women went to the Balkans to marry EEF and CHG men and form the diversity we see in LNBA Europe.
Sam
ReplyDeleteWhat you confidentially tell me means diddly squat
You don't even know what's where and when.
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"It's called satire. Obviously lost on you. Yep only steppe dudes could marry wives.
No, the only sick people are morons like you "
So everything you just posted is satire?
When did I ever indicate I believe Steppe dudes were macho men on horses who grabbed women from while raiding villages or something like that?
I don't believe that crap.
I understand there's association between Steppe invasion and that crap and that there's an age old association between Steppe-IE invasion and white racism. But no one at Eurogenes promotes such believes. Posters such as yourself assume we think that but I'm confident most of the "pro-Steppe crowd' doesn't believe anything along those lines.
The reason I post so much about Steppe migrations on this blog is because of deniers of this simple and obvious fact.
Sam
ReplyDeleteDude my ancestry and lineage is from Northern and Eastern Europe
I don't care about racial sensitivities
The only reason why I diss people like you & Folker is coz you're slimy dumbasses
@Sam “I can confidently tell you European mtDNA is more EEF than anything else.”
ReplyDeleteExactly, the European mtDNA pool is not a result of a significant Yamnaya migration. :)
“It doesn't look like EHG women went to the Balkans to marry EEF and CHG men.”
Sure, but it looks like many Yamnaya men married EHG women on the steppe, and also the Corded Ware men in the Baltics married local haplogroup U5 and U4 women.
The Earliest migration of Indo-Europeans I will put at the door of Sredny Stog. The Second Migration I will put at the door of Corded Ware.I think both Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog were Proto-Indo-European people. The Late Corded Ware expansioñ had a great influence establishing more commonality between the Earlier and Later branches because they basically overrun territories where Earlier Indo-Europeans was found especially from Central Europe to Southern Siberia.
ReplyDeleteSo basically I see an Early expansion from Sredny Stog between 4000 and 3500 bC. with lots of adoption of Cultural elements of Cultures they came into contact with thus making the tracing of Early Indo-European migration difficult.
Then the Corded Ware/Yamnaya that followed with less adoption of other Cultural elements and a greater influence on language.
@Rob,
ReplyDelete"Dude my ancestry and lineage is from Northern and Eastern Europe
I don't care about racial sensitivities"
Be that as it may you obviously have an emotional objection to Steppe migration.
"The only reason why I diss people like you & Folker is coz you're slimy dumbasses"
Chill out. We're all friends here.
@ Sam
ReplyDeleteNo I never said there wasn't *some movements * from the steppe, such as CWC
But you won't gain people's respect if you keep missing important facts, whether out ineptitude or intentional skirting, whatsmore then lecturing someone who knows more than any of you put together
@Apostolos Papadimitrou:
ReplyDeletePretty much ever since I've seriously gotten into this, yeah.
I had imagined that Greece would likely be more urbanized/more densely populated and that steppe lineage would have many chances to mix along the way(distance, chokepoints)----all contributing factors to what I think will be pretty diluted steppe ancestry in Mycenaeans.
But we shall see. I'm ready for any surprise.
@Rob,
ReplyDeleteCHG, EHG
Yamnaya: 50, 50
Corded Ware: 40, 40
Northern Bell Beaker: 25, 25
Unetice: 30, 30
Balkan Neolithic: 0, 2ish
Balkan Chalcolithic(xoutliers): 0, 5ish
That's all you need to know.
"whatsmore then lecturing someone who knows more than any of you put together "
David Reich and friends know more than you. They don't even question widespread Steppe migration, it's an assumed fact in their papers.
Um did you even read Reichs paper?
ReplyDelete@Rob
ReplyDeleteThe authors of Mathieson et al. 2017 do admit that admixture from the steppe did affect the Balkans during the Copper and Bronze Ages.
But according to them there is no evidence of big migrations and population shifts. So right now, gene flow from east to west did happen, but apparently it wasn't big enough to explain language change in Anatolia. To be honest, that's a really awful argument, but whatever.
In any case, it's not a paper yet, just a preprint up for comment, and also I'm certain that when more samples come in from the Copper Age/Bronze Age Balkans the conclusions in that paper will become obsolete.
Sure, but it looks like many Yamnaya men married EHG women on the steppe, and also the Corded Ware men in the Baltics married local haplogroup U5 and U4 women.
ReplyDeleteThat's a very important observation Kristiina , how much 'EHG Mtdna' do you think Yamnaya and CWC posses , if you have to give a % roughly?.
Indo-Iranians are autosomaly more related to Yamnaya according to recent publications.
ReplyDeleteYes but not to Sintashta or Andronovo as they have Anatolian ancestry ,which Indians don't and also it is archaeologically not tenable to assume a migration from Andronovo to India .
You can be sure that India will show R1a from Mesolithic , but I seriously don't think Greek aDNA will have Z-93 , you should expect Near Eastern y-dna mostly with some local ones.
You can be sure that India will show R1a from Mesolithic.
ReplyDeleteWow, Mesolithic R1a in both Eastern Europe and India. What are the chances of that?
ZERO.
Moreover, it is thought that Luwian was a substrate in Greece before the arrival of the
ReplyDeleteMycenaeans, as is shown by toponyms like mount Parnassos.
New ancient mitogenomes from Armenia.
ReplyDeleteThis is a dissertation. Unfortunately dates and cultures of adna are not published. Afaik they will be available in a peer reviewed study.
Samples span from 20000 to 3000 ybp.
Open page 60 for adna.
http://etd.asj-oa.am/4682/2/%D5%80.%D5%80%D5%B8%D5%B0%D5%BE%D5%B0%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B6%D5%AB%D5%BD%D5%B5%D5%A1%D5%B6_%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%A5%D5%B6%D5%A1%D5%AD%D5%B8%D5%BD%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%A9%D5%B5%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B6.pdf#page25
For example in Yamnaya Kalmykia, more than half is U5 and U4, i.e. 4xU5 + 1xU4 versus 1 x J2b + 2 x T2a1 + 1xT2c1. Moreover, T2a1a in Yamnaya Kalmykia can be of European origin.
ReplyDeleteWell I from the beginning thought of this wife exogamy idea as nonsense , what you are pointing, is not helping it either..
ReplyDeleteK3 was present in ancient Armenia like in Mesolithic Georgia.
ReplyDeleteH13 also.
Some U4 and U5.
Various I-s
A lot off U3. Not surprising it was found in Kura Araxes.
Neolithic stuff. K1 and J1. A lot.
Also T1-s.
For example in Yamnaya Kalmykia, more than half is U5 and U4, i.e. 4xU5 + 1xU4 versus 1 x J2b + 2 x T2a1 + 1xT2c1. Moreover, T2a1a in Yamnaya Kalmykia can be of European origin.
ReplyDeleteOne of the Khvalynsk samples belongs to Y-hg Q and mtDNA U4 and has over 40% CHG, so why can't some of the U4 and U5 in Yamnaya be associated with CHG admixture into mostly EHG males?
@ Davidski
ReplyDeleteWhere did the I2a1 originate that was found among the Mesolithic R1a and R1b ? Did I2a1 originate in the North Caucasus region or maybe Northeastern Anatolia ?
Yes, to be honest, many of our presumptions are full of uncertainties.
ReplyDeleteArmenia Chalcolithic ARE20 4000BC (?) is U4a. Am I right that Armenia Chalcolithic had already a considerable amount of EHG?
@Kristiina
ReplyDeleteArmenia Chalcolithic ARE20 4000BC (?) is U4a. Am I right that Armenia Chalcolithic had already a considerable amount of EHG?
Yes, about 20%.
ReplyDelete@ Davidski
"@Rob
But their ultimate origin was probably Iran or India.
That ship has sailed. R1a and R1b are not from Iran or India".
Neither the mt hgs except M as the last paper at low coverage on the Indian mt.
Rob, are you joking me?
@Ric
ReplyDeleteWhere did the I2a1 originate that was found among the Mesolithic R1a and R1b? Did I2a1 originate in the North Caucasus region or maybe Northeastern Anatolia?
I think I2a1 is a European lineage. There's no Near Eastern Basal Eurasian in the earliest Europeans carrying I2a1
Rustagi et al. BMC Genomics (2017) 18:396 DOI 10.1186/s12864-017-3767-6
ReplyDelete@ Davidski
ReplyDeleteThanks
@ Gio
ReplyDeleteI certainly think R1b seems European ,
R1a also but we have to remember lineages had long ranges.
Eg there's haplogroup J in LUP France (supposedly) as well as all the way in Iran
The data set is also all horribly skewed toward Europe . So we shouldn't necessarily assume that the rest of Eurasia will be simply Js and Gs
You forget that For Ratna/Gioiello , Eurasia = Italy .
ReplyDeletelol
@ Nirjhar007
ReplyDeleteI have explained in a post above to Aram what I did mean for "Italian Refugium" and I think to be right yet.
Read the paper of Rustagi et al. and it will be clear also what was in India.
I said that also IE languages have something to do with Italy or nearby, the Balkans for instance, and if our friends did know the IE substrates in the Balkans wouldn't have discussed so much about nothing above.
oh comon Ratna , if your suggestion on Italy to be correct, then Italy is the womb of Eurasia , so nothing wrong with the equation of Italy= Eurasia . ;)
ReplyDeleteI did think that Albanian retained the iE laryngeals, but very likely Alb. h derives from *sk- and hurdhe is linked with the IE substratum *skorodon as the Greeh substratum etc etc
ReplyDeleteBut, Nirjhar007, Ti ka herdhet?
Regression lines for Varna with (red) and without (green) Varna Outlier:
ReplyDeletehttps://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HO-3-HXj7xo/WSVa8kw3wtI/AAAAAAAAAK8/fhZpVy1Cjl4L_PJmUtJOGVvqFW6xsoKrQCLcB/s1600/varna_regression_lines.png
You should use all Balkan Chalcolithic samples, plus outliers.
ReplyDelete@ Davidski
ReplyDelete"But according to them there is no evidence of big migrations and population shifts. So right now, gene flow from east to west did happen, but apparently it wasn't big enough to explain language change in Anatolia. To be honest, that's a really awful argument, but whatever.
In any case, it's not a paper yet, just a preprint up for comment, and also I'm certain that when more samples come in from the Copper Age/Bronze Age Balkans the conclusions in that paper will become obsolete."
Dave, you have don't have the knowledge nor contacts to talk the big game, so sit down & listen.
All those Yamnaya kurgans in the Balkans are not thousands of 'steppe dudes' pouring in. As we found out, they belong largely to I2a2, which has been found in about 30 Neolithic & Copper Age central Europeans and north Balkan individuals. You're claim that they're from the steppe is sheer stupidity, even for a die-hard steppe buffoon.
They acquired EHG due to the miscegenation which occurred as disparate communities moved onto the steppe, as allowed by a climactic optimum and the widespread aquaintance of the wheel.
And most importantly, the knowledge of specialised cattle herding. Contrary to Ric Hern's false assertion (not to mention his outdated and non-specific use of "Sredny Stog"), this specialist cattleherding first developed in the Carpathian basin, in Baden and related cultures, and spreading eastward by individual mobility. As the mixing continued to happen, and some made it as far as the Volga after numerous generations, we get the typically steppe -looking individual Ulan IV.
Now that's the Balkans by and large: mostly native Y lineages & 'steppe admixture' long before the alleged steppe migrations. Heck, we still not even sure where M269 expanded from. All the Z2013 looks like a founder effect in the Volga -Kalmyk region.
Perhaps some peripheral L51 groups then expanded to western Europe from somewhere around the western steppe or the Carpathian basin. But that's the riff raff minor detail.
Why does people think that Albanian language came from Eastern Europe and not that Slavs, i.e. Samara, came from the Balkans?
ReplyDeleteAlb mish "flesh, meat" < EPA *memsa < IE*memso- id. (Skr. mamsa "flesh, meat" , Arm mis, Goth mimz, Slav *meso)
@Rob
ReplyDeleteThe I2a2a1b1b that the Bulgarian Yamnaya belongs to has been found on the Pontic Caspian Steppe in local foragers and in a Yamnaya individual.
So considering that the Bulgarian Yamnaya does not cluster with non-Yamnaya samples, but 3/4 on the way to Kalmykian Yamnaya, then you prove that the I2a2a1b1b is not from the steppe.
Let's see you do it.
Dave
DeleteThere is a 4000 year gap between the forager and Yamnaya. But the same lineage is found in Central Europe in the intervening period
So get some actual data and then we'll talk
@ Rob
ReplyDelete"Perhaps some peripheral L51 groups then expanded to western Europe from somewhere around the western steppe or the Carpathian basin".
It is unlikely. Let that they test Tyrrhenian Italy, Liguria, Southern France till the Rhone-Rhine...
I am waiting that a sample of R-L51-PF7589 found in Pistoia, Tuscany, with DYS426=13, DYS388=13, DYS438=13 is tested at the deep SNP test...
ReplyDelete@ Gio
ReplyDeleteYes we really need more Italian samples. It's a shame such an important region is the least studied in all Europe.
But how would you explain that L51 appears so steppe admixed, if it expanded form Italy ?
@Rob
ReplyDeleteHere are the 4 samples from the Mathieson et al. dataset that share the Yamnaya lineage.
Bulgaria_EBA I2165 I2a2a1b1b
Ukraine_Neolithic I1738 I2a2a1b1b
Yamnaya_Bulgaria Bul4 I2a2a1b1b
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE552.SG I2a2a1b1b2
Also maybe these, though it's not 100% certain.
Bulgaria_EBA I2175 I2a2a1b1
Ukraine_Neolithic I3717 I2a2a1b1
Ukraine_Neolithic I3715 I2a2a1b1
Feel free to name more if you know them.
I'm out at the moment
ReplyDeleteI'll analyse all when data is out
@Rob
ReplyDeleteSo you can't prove that the Yamnaya lineage is found in samples other than those I listed?
Why are you arguing it then?
Dumbass
ReplyDeleteI2a2 was in the Balkans since the Mesolithic
And probably palaeolithic
And what about I2a2a1b1b?
ReplyDeleteProve it.
You'll get ALL your proof soon, don't worry.
ReplyDeleteThen even your fudged little Tree Mixes won't help you
Looking forward to it.
ReplyDeleteDave
ReplyDeleteproto-BA Bulgaria dates to 3200 BC is I2a2a1b. Remind me when Ulan IV dates to...
No problem.
ReplyDeleteBalkans Chalcolithic and Varna with both outliers:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3yzcQHXVPYw/WSVuzexGgUI/AAAAAAAAALM/vOOO7hjTNKQ47dtYyBBe_n4w1EBZEFMvgCLcB/s1600/Varna_BalkanChalcolithic_regression.png
Nearly identical to the one based on Varna+VO.
@ Rob
ReplyDelete"@ Gio
Yes we really need more Italian samples. It's a shame such an important region is the least studied in all Europe.
But how would you explain that L51 appears so steppe admixed, if it expanded form Italy ?"
I think that a possible explanation may come from aDNA. I think that hgs are older than YFull says and hope that new dates are more in line with mine. Otherwise my hypothesis Itay>Southern France>Central Germany will be demonstrated wrong.
@Rob
ReplyDeleteproto-BA Bulgaria dates to 3200 BC is I2a2a1b. Remind me when Ulan IV dates to...
The Ukrainian with I2a2a1b1b dates to 5473-5326 calBCE.
I don't think this lineage went back and forth between the steppe and Balkans. It looks like a steppe lineage, unless there's an older sample somewhere else?
So a 3000 year gap until Ulan IV.
ReplyDelete@ Davidski
ReplyDeleteAre you speaking about "I2a2a1b1b"? I found in Italy, our zone, western Tuscany and Liguria, an I2*. I sent it many years ago to Ken Nordtvedt, and he created an Adriatic line, between Italy and the Balkans...
Gio,
ReplyDelete"Otherwise my hypothesis Itay>Southern France>Central Germany will be demonstrated wrong."
Just check the oposite direction and you're probably spot on... ;-)
Davidski,
More high-wired results from the back of the reptilian brain clculus shows that the old mainland of the guti/getae/goths have something to do with the origin of I2a2a, as well as I2a2a1b.
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplomap&database=shd&typ_sel=Y&haplo_sel=I2a2a1b&haplo_level=7&lang=en
Look guys, if you want to prove that I2a2a1b1b is not from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe then just show me an older sample than that Ukrainian from somewhere else.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying such a sample doesn't exist, but I can't find it in my spreadsheets here. And this little cluster looks very ominous for anyone who wants to believe that I2a2a1b1b is not from the steppe.
Bulgaria_EBA I2165 I2a2a1b1b
Ukraine_Neolithic I1738 I2a2a1b1b
Yamnaya_Bulgaria Bul4 I2a2a1b1b
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE552 I2a2a1b1b2
@ batman
ReplyDelete"Gio,
"Otherwise my hypothesis Itay>Southern France>Central Germany will be demonstrated wrong."
Just check the oposite direction and you're probably spot on... ;-)"
It is a possibility I have always taken into account. Northern Western Europe is sure to me for R1a (perhaps after an Italian Refugium till tye Younger Dryas: I think that there is the possibility that R1a-M420 is found near Villabruna. We'll see.
As I posted to you in another thread, all the subclades of R-L51 expanded from west and not from east, beginning also from the subclades of my R1b1a2-L23-Z2110....
The most proximate source for Yamnaya Bulgaria and Ulan IV is late Chalcolithic Smyadovo sample. If you want to bridge the 3000 discontinuity further east, you should find a new sample. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but you need to bring evidence to the table
ReplyDelete@Rob
ReplyDeleteThe most proximate source for Yamnaya Bulgaria and Ulan IV is late Chalcolithic Smyadovo sample.
It's not exactly the right lineage. The Ukrainian is a better match, and is not only older, but also located between Bulgaria and Kalmykia.
See this?
Yamnaya_Bulgaria Bul4 I2a2a1b1b
Ukraine_Neolithic I1738 I2a2a1b1b
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE552 I2a2a1b1b
Bulgaria_EBA I2175 I2a2a1b1
I keep showing the evidence, and you keep ignoring it.
@ Davidski
ReplyDelete"It's not exactly the right lineage. The Ukrainian is a better match, and is not only older, but also located between Bulgaria and Kalmykia.
See this?
Yamnaya_Bulgaria Bul4 I2a2a1b1b
Ukraine_Neolithic I1738 I2a2a1b1b
Yamnaya_Kalmykia RISE552 I2a2a1b1b
Bulgaria_EBA I2175 I2a2a1b1"
All the upstream and downstream subclades are in western Europe
Scotland Macarthur Cave, Oban, Argyll and Bute [I2657 / GENSCOT26] M 3952–3781 calBCE 116339 I2a2a I2a2a:P223:16699334C->G; I:CTS7540:17525137A->G W1+119 Olalde 2017 Ba
Scotland Distillery Cave, Oban, Argyll and Bute [I2691 / GENSCOT30] M 3701–3640 calBCE 785482 I2a2a1 I2a2a1:CTS9183:18732197A->G; I2a2a:P221:8353707C->A; I2a2:L35:22725379C->A; I2a2:L37:17516123T->C; I2a2:L181:19077754G->T; I2a2:L368:6931594C->T; I2a2:P218:17493630T->G; I2a:L460:7879415A->C; I2:L68:18700150C->T; I:CTS646:6926038T->A; I:CTS674:6943522C->T; etc. J1c1 Olalde 2017
Megalithic Spain La Mina [I0406 / Mina 4] M 3900-3600 BC 738288 I2a2a1b2 Z161+, CTS9183+, L368+, L34+, P221+, P223+, P222+, M223+, P220+, L1195- H1
Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015; Lazaridis 2016
Thus your I2a2a1b1 risks to be the same as R-L23-Z2105, i.e. a single subclade come from west and expanded only a little in the east.
@Gioiello
ReplyDelete“Why does people think that Albanian language came from Eastern Europe and not that Slavs, i.e. Samara, came from the Balkans?
Alb mish "flesh, meat" < EPA *memsa < IE*memso- id. (Skr. mamsa "flesh, meat" , Arm mis, Goth mimz, Slav *meso)”
Your ignorance is probably the result of poor quality pseudo-scientific books you have been reading.
http://ukdataexplorer.com/european-translator/?word=meat
Polish ‘mięso’(mienso) > Sanskryt ‘māṁsa’
Because Sk. ‘ā’< Sl. ‘ie-/ia-’, i.e. long vowels in IE come from diphthongs involving ‘–i-‘ or ‘-u-‘ present in Slavic:
http://s28.postimg.org/yspfzqvz1/screenshot_770.png
‘m’ and ‘n’ are interchangeable
or Sl. ‘ve-‘ >Sk. ‘ū’
look at Polish ‘wełna’ (velna) > Sk. ‘ūrṇā’
, Sl. ’l’>Sk. ’r’.
http://s28.postimg.org/u839ktc9p/1_1.png
http://ukdataexplorer.com/european-translator/?word=wool
Albanian, Gothic words are borrowings from Slavic, Armenian probably from Indo-Iranian.
@Arza
Balkans Chalcolithic and Varna with both outliers:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3yzcQHXVPYw/WSVuzexGgUI/AAAAAAAAALM/vOOO7hjTNKQ47dtYyBBe_n4w1EBZEFMvgCLcB/s1600/Varna_BalkanChalcolithic_regression.png
We need more Late Sredny Stog Dereivka samples to find out what it means:
http://s22.postimg.org/5jszx94vl/screenshot_226.png
I vectorized PCA from page 20 (SE paper) so everyone can draw and overlay regression lines:
ReplyDeletehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzuotSparaF-TE51OTQ3OGtDbTg/view?usp=sharing