Human mobility has been vigorously debated as a key factor for the spread of bronze technology and profound changes in burial practices as well as material culture in central Europe at the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age. However, the relevance of individual residential changes and their importance among specific age and sex groups are still poorly understood. Here, we present ancient DNA analysis, stable isotope data of oxygen, and radiogenic isotope ratios of strontium for 84 radiocarbon-dated skeletons from seven archaeological sites of the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker Complex and the Early Bronze Age from the Lech River valley in southern Bavaria, Germany. Complete mitochondrial genomes documented a diversification of maternal lineages over time. The isotope ratios disclosed the majority of the females to be nonlocal, while this is the case for only a few males and subadults. Most nonlocal females arrived in the study area as adults, but we do not detect their offspring among the sampled individuals. The striking patterns of patrilocality and female exogamy prevailed over at least 800 y between about 2500 and 1700 BC. The persisting residential rules and even a direct kinship relation across the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age add to the archaeological evidence of continuing traditions from the Bell Beaker Complex to the Early Bronze Age. The results also attest to female mobility as a driving force for regional and supraregional communication and exchange at the dawn of the European metal ages.See also... A plausible model for the formation of the Yamnaya genotype Corded Ware women more mobile than their men (Sjögren et al. 2016)
Monday, September 4, 2017
Female mobility and exogamy as the main drivers of foreign admixture during the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age shift in Central Europe (Knipper et al. 2017)
The paper is still embargoed. I'll update this post after I've read it. The press release is here. Who wants to bet that this is exactly what happened on the Eneolithic/Early Bronze Age steppe?
Corina Knipper et al., Female exogamy and gene pool diversification at the transition from the Final Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in central Europe, PNAS (2017). www.pnas.org/cgi/doi/10.1073/pnas.1706355114
Update 05/0/2017: I just had a quick look at the paper. It's not as comprehensive as I had hoped, because it lacks Y-chromosome and genome-wide data. But anyway, the authors do make a strong case for male patrilocality and abundant female exogamy at the sites in question. Below is the paper abstract. Emphasis is mine:
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Well worth notifying:
ReplyDelete"It appears that at least part of what was previously believed to be migration by groups is based on an institutionalized form of individual mobility," declares Stockhammer.
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-09-mobile-women-key-cultural-exchange.html#jCp
What this all seems to mean is they tend to have found is that mtdna is not stable at all within sites over time, and that neither is strontium isotope stable for the region for mature female typed skeletons (instead indicative of elsewhere), while it is for mature male typed skeletons.
ReplyDeleteNow I guess that this is all going to be happening *within* some autosomally Bell Beaker like community, based on the time scales and place. (However there is no comment here on the archaeological affinities of their sites in Lechtal, so I can't really have as much confidence on that).
@batman
ReplyDelete"It appears that at least part of what was previously believed to be migration by groups is based on an institutionalized form of individual mobility," declares Stockhammer.
But obviously this doesn't have anything to do with the appearance and sharp rise of R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 across most of Europe during the Early Bronze Age, because only men have Y-chromosomes. See here.
@Matt,
ReplyDelete"What this all seems to mean is they tend to have found is that mtdna is not stable at all within sites over time, and that neither is strontium isotope stable for the region for mature female typed skeletons"
Yes but not always. In Hungary and Germany, we see obvious mtDNA continuum from 5000 to at least 3500 BC. North Bell Beaker and modern Central/East Europeans look like another animal. Similar in the broad sense but not direct descendants to a large extent. I think it's likely Funnel Beaker instead has a different origin and made a big contribution to Bell Beaker and modern Northern Europeans.
Some archaeological context:
ReplyDeleteRewriting the Central European Early Bronze Age Chronology: Evidence from Large-Scale Radiocarbon Dating
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0139705
Earlier abstracts:
The Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech Valley: a Bioarchaeological Perspective
While the integration of archaeological and scientific – especially genetic – evidence has enabled a better understanding of the Corded Ware Complex in the last years, similar data for the Bell Beaker Complex has not been published yet. However, in the last years we have conducted an interdisciplinary bioarchaeological research program on 85 Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Early Bronze Age burials in the Lech Valley south of Augsburg, which is now a key region to understand the social transformations during the 3rd millennium BC. We will present the archaeological evidence of the Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech valley and integrate the data in an archaeological-diachronic perspective as well as with regard to the broad range of scientific analyses (ancient mitochondrial, Y and nuclear DNA, stable isotope ratios of strontium, oxygen carbon and nitrogen, radiocarbon dating, lead isotope analyses, etc.). The isotope data demonstrate a striking pattern of patrilocality and female exogamy during the Bell Beaker Complex and the Early Bronze Age where more than half of the females were non-local, while there were only rare occurrences among the male and subadult individuals. The DNA analysis enables us to understand family relations within the burial sites as well as the transformation of the genomic patterns from the Corded Ware to the Bell Beaker Complex and further on to the Early Bronze Age. In the end, we are able to present a new narrative for the genesis as well as the end of the Bell Beaker Complex at least for the Lech Valley south of Augsburg.
Patterns of Mobility in Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Central Europe: a case study from the Lech valley south of Augsburg
The transition from the late Neolithic to the Early Bronze Age in Central Europe is a time period for which human mobility has been vividly debated in archaeological research. This presentation contributes to these considerations using an interdisciplinary approach that integrates ancient mitochondrial DNA analysis, the determination of stable isotope ratios of strontium and oxygen in tooth enamel, and archaeological analysis of radiocarbon dated skeletal remains. They represent 83 human individuals from 6 sites of the Bell Beaker Complex and the early Bronze Age in the Lech Valley in Southern Bavaria, Germany. Mitochondrial DNA analysis documented a diversification of haplogroups over time. Strontium and oxygen isotope ratios disclosed more than half of the females to be non-local, while there were only single occurrences among the male and subadult individuals. This striking pattern of patrilocality and female exogamy prevailed between about 2500 and 1700 BC. It was independent of individual sites and their archaeological assignments to the Bell Beaker Complex or the Early Bronze Age. While the males ensured settlement continuity in a spatially limited area, the results indicate that the females were driving forces for regional and supra-regional communication and exchange at the dawn of the European Metal Ages.
Bonus from Olalde:
https://s6.postimg.org/k6cb74s4x/augs.png
Thanks, Arza. I think we all can agree R1b P312 North Bell Beaker is looking more and more like a Steppe tribe which immigrated quickly (maybe it took only a handful of generations) into Central/West Europe and over time acquired lots of EEF/WHG admixture via female exogamy. But when they arrived in Britain, maybe only 7 generations after leaving the Steppe, there was no female exogamy or much admixture at all with the native population.
ReplyDeleteThe rapidness of R1b P312's entry into Western Europe parallels the rapidness of R1a M417's entry into Eastern Europe and Central Asia. The massive male founder effects is another parallel. These aren't isolated cases. Obviously shared (Early Indo European) cultural traits can explain what we're seeing.
@Samuel - yet the Bell Beakers had a high amount of steppe mtDNA...
ReplyDelete@ Davidski @ Samuel Andrews
ReplyDeleteOf course I thinj that this paper will be the grave of the supposed origin of R1b-L51 from the steppes. We'll see... but the paper hasn't been published yet and Mr Reich hasn't published his too!
@Ryan,
ReplyDeleteThat's very true. I shouldn't have described the female exogamy as purely consisting of EEF/WHG females. Heavily Steppe females were definitely apart of it. You'd think eventually there was no difference between the imported women and native men. Also, many early Beaker folk in Netherlands and Britain were given 56% Steppe ancestry, so maybe we should expect there to still be a big chunk of Steppe mtDNA.
@Gioiello,
ReplyDeleteHow did R1b L23 end up in both Yamnaya and Bell Beaker if Bell Beaker got its Yamnaya-like ancestry only from women?
A friend of mine writes me that:
ReplyDeletegioiello
I read samuel andrews posts today. Ask him to show all of us the P312 and U106 Basal YSNP trail from the Sok River to western France. He will not be able to because there is no trail neither ancient nor modern. Anyone with half a brain would know that the Z2105 that was found in eastern Europe was the result of an earlier west to east movement. L23 was most likely born in the Balkans because of the number of L23 basal branches found therein. L51 is western European and we know this because we can see the basal branches of the brother of L151, R-Z2118. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2118/
R-Z2118 Z2118/PF7589 * Z2113 * Z2112+5 SNPs 5300 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 5800 4500 ybp" class="age"formed 5900 ybp, TMRCA 5100 ybp
⦁ id:YF10304BRA [BR-MG]
⦁ id:YF06757
⦁ id:YF03838
⦁ id:YF01968
R-Z2118*
⦁ id:ERS256999ITA [IT-CA]
R-Z2116 Z2116/CTS103794500 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 5600 4300 ybp" class="age"formed 5100 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybp
R-Z2116*
R-Y5141 CTS5940 * V2387/Y5141 * Y5144+11 SNPs
⦁ id:YF10878new
⦁ id:YF01827ENG
⦁ id:NA20785TSI
But strangely he didn't put the oldest haplotype (even though I wrote a lot about that as a "possible phantom sample" above all on the now out eng-molgen)
R-L51 L51/M412/S167/PF6536 * PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39+2 SNPs 5500 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 6500 5300 ybp" class="age" formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 5900 ybp
⦁ id:ERS257000ITA [IT-CA]
and he didin't say that the Brazilian haplotype belongs to an Italian of Tuscan (Lucca) descent.
@ Samuel Andrews
ReplyDelete"@Gioiello,
How did R1b L23 end up in both Yamnaya and Bell Beaker if Bell Beaker got its Yamnaya-like ancestry only from women?"
I wouldn't want to give other fuel to the potatoes spirit of Chad Rohlfsen, but realy I wrote that in at least ten thousand letters.
Said for newbies: the migration of some (only some) haplotypes at the L23 level (above all). which were in European hunter-gatherers) and a Group end up in Southern Russia, but happened not during the third millennium, but long before. I calculated that the separation of the Western European and Eastern European haplotypes happened 6000 years ago (as to YFull), I think before for an 1.17 or an 1.26 factor.
ReplyDelete@Gioiello
ReplyDeleteYou need finally make an effort to grasp the basics of genome-wide (autosomal) DNA.
@ Davidski
ReplyDelete"@Gioiello
You need finally make an effort to grasp the basics of genome-wide (autosomal) DNA".
OK, but you know that I think that a line like the Y or the mt may be followed in its pathway, the autosome not. I asked many times in the past your thought about some autosome analyses, like that of Shi Huang and his team and that of the 0,02% of Canaanite autosome of about 3500 years ago in European Jews. I had no answer from you. I discussed these questions with Dienekes pretty ten years ago, is he or not the famous Harvardian we know.
What they seem to have found is the system within the established ethnicity. Males migrated most of the time in groups whereas females could be exchanged individualy. This is nothing new but something known.
ReplyDeletequote from the report: "Bronze Age Iberia received fewer steppe invaders than the rest of Europe"
ReplyDeletefewer invaders from the Steppes but carry one of the highest frequency of R1b in Europe. Which is it? Refugia or Steppes invaders. They can't make up their minds!
@xyyman
ReplyDeleteY-chromosome lineages are highly susceptible to founder effects, you dickhead.
So with the CWC samples and the hint (cf Arza's post) that this will constrcut a narrative on the origin of BB we might see some confirmation of a Rhineland-ish Origin Hypothesis.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link! Please keep us posted when the paper is released. My H6a1a maternal ancestors made the Corded Ware to Bell Beaker to Unetice transition. And my last know MtDNA Grandmother was born near Ansbach, Germany.
ReplyDeleteHello, do we have any study of genetic variability from the Caucasus and Pontius steppes to Iberia related to R1b? Thank you!
ReplyDeleteRegards
David
@ jv
ReplyDelete"Thanks for the link! Please keep us posted when the paper is released. My H6a1a maternal ancestors made the Corded Ware to Bell Beaker to Unetice transition. And my last know MtDNA Grandmother was born near Ansbach, Germany".
Also my relative Giorgio Tognarelli (Y: R1b1a2-L23-Z2110-CTS9219*, one of the threee known so far: all from Italy, Switzerland, Southern Germany) is mt H6a1, from Tuscany, Pisa Province, unfortunately tested only from 23andMe for the mt...
Great! Are you MtDNA H6a1? I'm H6a1a2b1 and tested with Family Tree DNA. I have the most full sequence matches in Germany, then England & Ireland and one in the Netherlands & Sweden. A very Corded Ware to Bell Beaker, east to west migration. My ggg Grandmother was born near Ansbach, Germany in 1823 and died in Iowa in 1917. My paternal Grandmother was MtDNA K2a and her line migrated to Indiana from Venne, Germany( the whole village of Venne migrated. 2,000 people left Venne in the 1800's!)
Delete@xyyman
ReplyDeleteR1b is higher in Ireland and Wales than in Spanish Basque and they have substantial "steppe" input. Iberia was predominantly a movement of males in the Bronze age with female continuity since the neolithic period.
@xyyman
ReplyDeleteTry reading the latest materials from Martiniano 2017, you might learn a lot instead of staying ignorant.
u need to moderate more david....
ReplyDeletei think the distances of this 'high mobility' has to also be in focus; the females are said to be ~17y of age and from areas such as elbe-saale and bohemia (towards sw bavaria), and not from the steppes themselves so whatever admix these females than contributed it already existed as such in central europe;
ReplyDelete@ AFritz
ReplyDeletePresumably, in 2500 BC, central Germany was Corded ware territory. So these women were bringing steppe admixture (?)
@Rob
ReplyDeleteexactly; have not seen the results/data myself but if the mobile females did indeed have had a high steppe-related ancestry than that must stem from previous migrations; most prob. corded ware context;
@ Rob
ReplyDeleteSo these women were bringing steppe admixture (?)
No need for "(?)". Check the link that I've posted under the abstracts.
@ Arza
ReplyDeleteYep I've in fact read the whole article already
MtDNA only. No CWC samples
Hate to be Captain Obvious, but prior to the infusion of steppe-related ancestry into Germany, there was an absence of R1b-l51 in late Neolithic Western Europe. It's time for the naysayers here to swallow that pill, just like it's time for the Out of India crowd to swallow theirs because when the IVC genomes come out bristling with L2 and H, there's gonna be a whole lotta heartbreak. I strongly encourage the naysayers to go green and save some trees---it's all too easy to be wasteful with tissue paper in times of mourning.
ReplyDeleteWe are at the madness with this paper. Some haplotypes are classified as K1a1b1g, but with private mutations in 114C, 12007G, 16459T, 16093T, but K1a1b1g has the mutations in C5583T, G12007A. 114 and 16093 are floating in hg K1a1, subdue to heteroplasmy. I don't understand how the authors classified this hg. Of course I'd want to see the FMS.
ReplyDeleteMutation C14659T is pretty all in hg. L0d. I think that something went wrong...
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's really correct to refer to late Bell Beakers as steppe invaders in Iberia. They certainly had decent amounts of steppe ancestry, but that's almost incidental. Their cultural package isn't from the steppe. It would be like calling an Arab from Lebanon or a Basque person a steppe invader - yah, there's steppe ancestry there, but they're not from a steppe culture.
ReplyDelete@Arza
ReplyDelete“Bonus from Olalde:
https://s6.postimg.org/k6cb74s4x/augs.png”
Pairwise Fst BBC-CWC : 0,00316
Pairwise Fst BBC-EBA : 0,03724
And look how hg frequencies changed:
hg BBC EBC
J 21% 3,3%
U5a 16% 3,3%
U5b 21% 9,8%
So BBC women were more similar to CWC women than to EBA.
Interesting.
David - could you just ban xyyman? Attacking people as "Hindus" is a bit much.
ReplyDelete@Grey - or it's a particularly weird and interesting founder effect
- male only (or mostly so)
- small numbers
- no evidence of a conquest (iirc)
- yet somehow their ydna became a big thing
That's why I am skeptical that it came from the steppe. To have nearly 100% Y-DNA turnover with nearly 100% cultural continuity seems unlikely. I find it more plausible that the source of that Y-DNA was already from a related culture, so any cultural change may have been more muted.
I realize that's not the only possibility though. For all we know there could have been a "Wessex scenario" - ie a polity firmly rooted in one culture with a founder from another (the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex was founded by someone with a British Celtic name).
It looks like she (AugU_E09537_d E09537_d/Feature 68 Skeleton 2, Haunstetten, Unterer Talweg 58-62 (UNTA 58-62)) was local after all.
ReplyDeleteOlalde:
The cemetery was excavated in 2007 and consists only of two burials, a single burial (Feature 67) and a double burial (Feature 68) lying close to each other.
Knipper:
In several cases, haplotype sharing occurred within double, multiple, or neighbouring burials [(...) UNTA 58–62, feat. 67, 68 skeleton 2 (...)], pointing to a society where biological (maternal) kinship represented a significant form of social relationship that was honoured in death.
Back to Olalde:
Genetic data from two individuals from the double grave (Feature 68) were included.
She had most Yamnaya ancestry from all of the sampled Beakers in the West and among all of the Beakers more "steppe" had only the guy with Yamnayan R1b from Hungary. Her male relative... genetic data not included. What a bummer.
What? No Y-DNA? Unbelievable.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I shouldn't be so ungrateful. But the quest for he origin of the BBC is really depended on Y-DNA. Such a pity.
ReplyDelete"Strikingly, we failed to identify offspring of the nonlocal females, as none of the subadults or adults of either sex shared an identical haplotype with any of them."
ReplyDeleteThis is a really strange thing. Maybe I missed something in the reading, but did they really state that the offspring of non-local females never married into locals?
First thought: We're watching some really odd inheritance rules.
"but did they really state that the offspring of non-local females never married into locals?"
ReplyDeleteO, off course. This is a mtDNA study. It is the female offspring of non-local females that married outside the group. Still very strange.
epoch,
ReplyDeletePopular women may travel the world - and so may their daugthers. Now as then.
What's strange about that?
@ EastPole
ReplyDeleteFig 1.
Unterer Talweg sites are sitting on top of the earlier CWC ones. So despite she was local, most probably she (or rather her genes) came from CWC.
They were probably totally assimilated... after her steppe ancestry (and similarity to CWC) only drops.
I wonder if Mr. Feature 67 will be added to the final version of the Behemoth.
@xyyman
ReplyDeleteYou're now banned. Don't attempt to post on this blog again.
@Anthro Survey
ReplyDelete"... because when the IVC genomes come out bristling with L2 and H, ..."
Are these Y HGs? If so, L2 as in L-L595?
Thanks for taking notice.
Some of you seem to be implying that BB acquired its steppe dna from CW women. How exactly would women create the warlike, horse-riding, patriarchal, Indo-European kurgan culture that is Bell Beaker by marrying - what? - Neolithic farmers? (And farmers belonging almost exclusively to a y-haplogroup thus far not found among Neolithic farmers, R1b-L51.)
ReplyDeleteIf those farmers formed that culture by learning from their R1a fathers-in-law and brothers-in-law, how did they keep it so overwhelmingly R1b? Surely cultures in such close cooperation and collaboration would exchange daughters and sons, would they not? Does one-way exogamy, with the exclusive target being R1b males, make any sense?
Usually whichever sex is the local part of patrilocal or matrilocal has the culture that dominates, yet the idea that CW women imparted the steppe autosomal dna to Bell Beaker reverses that. It has women going to live with Neolithic farmer husbands and, instead of adopting their farmer ways, converting their husbands to the ways of their CW fathers and brothers.
That just does not make sense. At all.
On page 153 of The Horse The Wheel and Languages, Anthony points out that brides who go to live with their husbands' families aren't usually cultural innovators:
"But Warren DeBoer has shown that wives who marry into a foreign tribe among tribal societies often feel so exposed and insecure that they become hyper-correct imitators of their new cultural mores rather than a source of innovation."
This all smells like the women were made slaves, concubines, maids, etc
ReplyDeleteHow could that be? Maybe the Bell Beakers did raids, or demanded females as payment for land, or as some other kind of tribute.
Weird paper.
Mutations in mtDNA occur only about once every 2,500 years. When Julius Ceasar was around there was probably someone running around with a mitochondrial chromosome identical or one mutation away from yours.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of mtDNA 4,000 years ago isn't really that long ago. It's only 1-3 mutations separated from modern times. The 80 ~4ky mitogenomes sequenced by this study shouldn't be viewed as chronologically very separated from modern people and it's safe to assume they are genetic dead ends like Upper Paleolithic European mitogenomes.
After taking a quick glance at the results, I'm pretty confident all the samples have mitogenomes like you'd expect from 80 random people from modern Germany. Few or none belong to basal or extinct lineages. I'll take a more in-depth look this weekend.
Notice none belong to N1a1a and only one Beaker person so far has been found to be N1a1a. Doesn't look like LBK's descendants made a big impact on Bell Beaker.
The Bell Beakers are generally dated 2900-1800 BCE
ReplyDeleteThe Bell Beakers in this paper are MID RANGE, The earliest BBC is ~2500 BCE potentially 400 years in Germany. Plenty of time to get all strontiumed up as a local.
Half the women are non locals (according to a line that is positioned to make all but two of the men local). They arrived from elsewhere (in Germany) and their daughters married outside of the community or were killed. Sons would carry the lineage only for their lifetime. There was no birth control and women have babies. I doubt they were killed, its wasteful.
The Lech Valley is maybe 10 km x 10 km. All you need is a clan system where everyone is related like the MacLech clan or O'Lech clan and a ban on cousin marriages. This means every woman who wants to marry has to marry outside of the valley. These results just indicate that incest was not big in the Lech Valley. It also suggests that there was little incentive for a widowed daughter to bring the grandkids back. Strict inheritance of land via the male line.
"...their daughters married outside of the community or were killed."
DeleteOr they didn't marry. Those days no woman would have children without the pronounced consent of her family. As well as her mans family.
No marriage - no children.
"There was no birth control and women have babies."
There were a very tigth birth-control those days, as NO child was allowed to be born into a life in jeopardy and misery - risking the wellfare of the entire family...
Respecting life both men and women had to put a childs life before their own tiny egos. Consequently we find an array of sexual practices in ancient (pre-religious) societies that are stimulating to both virility and fertility, whitout leading to pregnancy.
Those days it actually took a
flock of siblings - as well as a village - to rise a child and complete his or hers upbringing. Thus the local branches of every dynasty would have annual rites - such as Midwinter elections and Midsummer celebrations - to perform the selective processes defining which men and women were allowed to have children.
In the ancient dynasties a balance between food-production and reproduction was imminent. Thus there were no place for unplanned, random or accidental pregnancies.
Increasingly Steppe-like autosomes from a surplus of surrounding Corded Ware females is quite plausible IMO. But not necessary IF R1b was already steppe-like.
ReplyDelete@samuel andrews
ReplyDeletein olalde et al (supp.info p.73/74) the best fit for farmer admix in beakers are GAC and TRB;
Anyway something doesn't fit. They have two H41a, which is the hg. also of my cousin from my paternal line, thus my paternal grandmother my aunt but also my father. They give us extra mutation 15326A, but there are on Mitomap 36960 A15326G, but no back mutation documented. I feel that Knipper is kidding us.
ReplyDelete@ Annie Mouse
ReplyDelete“Increasingly Steppe-like autosomes from a surplus of surrounding Corded Ware females is quite plausible IMO. But not necessary IF R1b was already steppe-like.”
If R1b didn’t come from the steppe but from the Balkans or Baltic and Corded Ware females were spreading IE language and culture then it will complicate somewhat Anthony’s theories about the origin of Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages.
https://s26.postimg.org/hbp6e8bo9/screenshot_274.png
If this is the case then I have a theory ready why it happened, i.e. why Corded Ware females and IE language and culture were so successful in the North-Western Europe among BBC.
It may have something to do with religion and with switching from wine drinking and worshiping Dionysus like deity by women in the South to mead/beer drinking in the North and worshiping hops (chъmiel = haoma/soma) as a manifestation of a god responsible for marriages and love, a tradition present among Slavic women until today.
Eastpole,
DeleteDid any "gods" actually exist among BBC and CWC?
Was Dionysos a title and a function of a public servant, rather than "god"?
Using modern phrases and customs to describe ancient cultures are always tricky.
@ jv
ReplyDelete"Great! Are you MtDNA H6a1? I'm H6a1a2b1 and tested with Family Tree DNA. I have the most full sequence matches in Germany, then England & Ireland and one in the Netherlands & Sweden. A very Corded Ware to Bell Beaker, east to west migration. My ggg Grandmother was born near Ansbach, Germany in 1823 and died in Iowa in 1917. My paternal Grandmother was MtDNA K2a and her line migrated to Indiana from Venne, Germany( the whole village of Venne migrated. 2,000 people left Venne in the 1800's!)"
I wrote that not me (K1a1b1e) but a relative of mine belongs to hg. H6a1. Unfortunately he is partially tested from 23andMe: 263G 750G 1438G 3915A 4727G 4769G 8860G 12771A 15326G 16145A 16256T 16362C.
11253 isn't tested, thus we don't know if he may belong to the subclade H6a1a, but rs2853487 MT 10589 G
demonstrates that he isn't H6a1b. Of all the other possible subclades no one has his three private mutations (12771A 16145A 16256T):
H6a1a2 A7202G
not tested
but not H6a1a2a H6a1a2a C41T
i4001190 MT 41 C
H6a1a2 (tested only the coding region)
H6a1a3 T5785C
i3002268 MT 5785 T
H6a1a4 T10237C
not tested
H6a1a5 C10936T
not tested
H6a1a6 A288G
not tested
H6a1a7 C150T G7805A
i3001901 MT 150 C
i4001251 MT 7805 G
H6a1a8 T16298C
i3001813 MT 16298 T
H6a1a9 T13953C
not tested
H6a1a10 T3548C
not tested
thus once more, what also 23andMe with his new bosses says (origin of hg. H in Middle East and to Western Europe from Yamnaya 4500 ya), is totally undemonstrated.
All the hg. H6 present at Yamnaya are H6a2, H6ab and subclades and late subclades of H6a1 and cannot be the ancertresses of my relative Giorgio Tognarelli:
ReplyDeleteYamnaya Russia Kutuluk I, Kutuluk River, Samara [I0444 / SVP 58] M 3300-2700 BC 551461 R1b1a2a2 [Z2103] CTS1078/Z2103+, L150+, M415+ H6a1b Haak 2015; Mathieson 2015; Sergey Malychev
Corded Ware Germany Esperstedt [ESP 15]
2465-2395 BC
H6a1a G73A C146T C152T C195T T239C A247G A769G A825t A1018G G2706A A2758G C2885T T3594C G3915A G4104A T4312C A4727G T7028C G7146A T7256C A7521G T8468C T8655C G8701A G9380A C9540T G10398A T10664C A10688G C10810T C10873T C10915T T11253C A11719G A11914G T12705C G13105A G13276A T13506C T13650C T14766C A16129G T16187C C16189T T16223C G16230A T16278C C16311T T16362C A16482G Brotherton 2013; Brandt 2013
Poltavka Russia Kutuluk III, Kutuluk River, Samara [I0126 / SVP 51] M 2867-2484 BC 339,812 R1b1a1a2a2 [CTS1078 / Z2103] Z2105 H6a2 Mathieson 2015
Okunevo Russia Verkhni Askiz Village [RISE516] F 2201-2036 BC
H6a1b 239C, 263G, 750G, 1438G, 3107T, 3915A, 9380A, 10589A, 15326G, 16362C, 16482G Allentoft 2015
Unetice Germany Leau 2 [LEA 4]
2200-1550 BC
H6a1b3 G73A C146T C152T C195T T204C T239C A247G 309.1C 315.1CA16129G T16187C C16189T C16193T A16219G T16223C G16230A T16278C C16311T T16362C Brandt 2013
Unetice Poland Polwica [RISE145] F 2188-1958 BC
H6a1b 239C, 750G, 1438G, 3107T, 3915A, 4288T, 9380A, 10090T, 10589A, 15326G, 16362C, 16482G Allentoft 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka IV, Samara River, Samara [I0358 / SVP 6] F 1913-1629 BC 273,856 H6a1a Mathieson 2015
Bell Beaker Netherlands Oostwoud-Tuithoorn, West Frisia [I4071 / skeleton 231 barrow I-M10] F 1883–1665 calBCE 774001 H6a1a Olalde 2017
Scotland Pabay Mor, Isle of Lewis, Western Isles [I2655 / GENSCOT24] M 1442–1273 calBCE 835188 I2a2a1a1a1 I2a2a1a1a1:L126:14901633C->T; I2a2a1a1a1:L137:9791250G->A; I2a2a1a1a1:L369:14850314T->C; I2a2a1a1a:L1195:18865320G->A; I2a2a1:CTS9183:18732197A->G; I2a2a:P221:8353707C->A; I2a2a:P223:16699334C->G; I2a2:L35:22725379C->A; I2a2:L37:17516123T->C; I2a2:L181:19077754G->T; I2a2:L368:6931594C->T; I2a2:P216:13992338C->G; I2a2:P217:7628484C->T; I2a2:P218:17493630T->G; I2:L68:18700150C->T; I2:PF3664:8567995G->A; I:CTS674:6943522C->T; I:CTS1800:14073053G->A; I:CTS2387:14286853T->C; etc. H6a1b2 Olalde 2017
I appreciate the detailed MtDNA H6 ancient finds. I wonder if MtDNA H6a1a from Esperstedt was male or female. Guess it is not known? ( I do know remains of a fur cloak with shell beads was found in a CWC burial) Also, I wonder if the H6a1a female, Srubna Culture, Samara River, was from a local lineage or was this H6a1a due to migration from the west. Even Marija Gimbutas said that the Srubna Culture had a population from the west and this was decades before Archaeogenetics. Also, there was an H6 in Israel in approximately 4000 BCE. Do you know if it was just H6 or H6a or H6b. I have read that much of the H6 in Turkey and Saudi Arabia is H6b. Boy, I wish it was possible to determine where MtDNA H6 was born! Maybe Iraq or Iran? Thanks again for your detailed reply. jv
Delete@batman
ReplyDelete“Using modern phrases and customs to describe ancient cultures are always tricky.”
Yes, but preservation of Slavic traditions and words having Slavic etymology in Vedic India suggest that it was an ancient custom probably from CWC times.
@Santosh
ReplyDeleteYes, y-Hgs. I misspoke and meant to say L1.
Of interest: http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2017/02/harappan-y-dna-leak.html?m=1
@ jv
ReplyDelete"I appreciate the detailed MtDNA H6 ancient finds. I wonder if MtDNA H6a1a from Esperstedt was male or female. Guess it is not known? ( I do know remains of a fur cloak with shell beads was found in a CWC burial) Also, I wonder if the H6a1a female, Srubna Culture, Samara River, was from a local lineage or was this H6a1a due to migration from the west. Even Marija Gimbutas said that the Srubna Culture had a population from the west and this was decades before Archaeogenetics. Also, there was an H6 in Israel in approximately 4000 BCE. Do you know if it was just H6 or H6a or H6b. I have read that much of the H6 in Turkey and Saudi Arabia is H6b. Boy, I wish it was possible to determine where MtDNA H6 was born! Maybe Iraq or Iran? Thanks again for your detailed reply"
This H6 isn't reliable.
Spain La Chora (Cantabria) [CH-1] 5346 ± 90 BC Date from Strauss 2002 ? 73G, 16093, 16362, reported as H6 Hervella 2012
This haplptype from Middle East is the same too little tested:
Israel Wadi el Makkukh [WM 30] M 4240-4065 BC H6 16311C, 16362C, 16482G Salamon 2010
even though the mutations 16362C and 16482G may be in favour of hg. H6, but we should get more for saying which subclade.
The same for this sample from Morocco:
Ibero-Maurusian Morocco Taforalt [TafV27] 23,000–10,800 cal BP ? 16298C. Reported as H6a1a8, but HVR I only and this haplogroup dated 2023 y. a. by Behar 2012 supp. Kefi 2005; 2016
These are reliable but recent:
Roman England, UK Driffield Terrace, York [3DRIF-16] M 100-400 AD R1b1a2a1a1 M405/U106/S21+ Added info Z381/S263+ , Z305/S376+, S1785+] H6a1a Martiniano 2016; additional SNPs from Alex Williamson
Roman England, UK Driffield Terrace, York [6DRIF-23] M 100-400 AD R1b1a2a1a [R1b1a2a1a2e] L52+ [Additional info P312+, Z4161+ (DF19 equivalent)] H6a1b2 Martiniano 2016; additional SNPs from Alex Williamson
and more likely linked to Yamnaya. These too:
Lombard Italy Rivoli, Corso Levi (Turin) [riv22] 600-800 H6a1b1 16284G, 16294T Vai 2015
Viking Norway Oppland [A1517] H6 16362C Krzewińska 2015
Magyar Hungary Karos-Eperjesszög III [3] 900-950 R1b1b1a H6a1b 16362C 239C 263G Neparáczki 2016 (2 papers)
Magyar Hungary Karos-Eperjesszög III [17] M 900-950 I2a H6a1a 16362C, 16399G, 239C, 263G Neparáczki 2016 (2 papers)
England, UK East Smithfield, London [ES 4.1 (ES 11972)] F 1347–1351 H6a1a
Schuenemann 2011
Eastpole,
ReplyDelete"Yes, but preservation of Slavic traditions and words having Slavic etymology in Vedic India suggest that it was an ancient custom probably from CWC times."
Words and phrases may be. There's no IE tradition, though, defining the concept, phrase and term known from the Mosaic religions, as "GOD" - and a 'individual entity' of supernatural nature.
The closest we get are the old "good-men", refered to as pretty normal, human dignitaries - such as noblemen, heroes and/or wise guys. The Slavic word Bug/Bog/Bhog and the Vedic term Bhag are obviously related to the old IE term Bok/Buk/Buck, reflecting a male headman, breeder and dignitary.
The concept of an extra-terestial personality - like the "Lord in Heaven" and "The Invisible and Invincible Spagetti-monster" - is not attested before the Trojan Wars brougth the semittic language and belivers of Adonai to the Eastern Meds.
PIE *deywós 'god' is etymologically related to *dyew- 'sky'. They very likely worshipped in a class of non human divine beings not just 'noblemen' and 'wiseguys'
Delete@Batman
ReplyDeleteI try my best to not feed the trolls on this blog, but you never cease to impress me. Indo Europeans had no concept of gods? Secular ritualists until the introduction of Judaic monotheism? I'm almost crying with laughter.
@batman
ReplyDeleteYou're also banned from this blog. Don't try to post here again.
JohnP said...
ReplyDelete"This all smells like the women were made slaves, concubines, maids, etc"
Exactly what I thought. "Female mobility" and "communication and exchange" has positive connotations to me, while "female sex slaves as spoils of war" has not.
Also, why "exogamy" when no offspring were detected?
@Rich S - "Some of you seem to be implying that BB acquired its steppe dna from CW women. How exactly would women create the warlike, horse-riding, patriarchal, Indo-European kurgan culture that is Bell Beaker by marrying - what? - Neolithic farmers?"
ReplyDeleteHere's the trouble with this statement of yours - Bell Beakers originated in Iberia and had 0 steppe ancestry. They didn't meet Indo-Europeans until they reached central Europe. Nice try though.
@JohnP and Ian
ReplyDeleteSlaves, concubines and maids have babies too. It is most likely that the daughters went out via the same mechanism that their mothers arrived in the community. IMO "you meet your spouse at the biannual market or festival" makes more sense that organized slavery of daughters. Plus if you look at Bell Beaker burials, women were shown respect.
It seems the Corded Ware women were shown respect too. Pots, animal teeth beads, tiny shell beads, flint, shell amulets, and a little copper were found in their burials (the Bohemian, Czech & Central Germany artifacts are very similar) The CWC family buried at Eulau ( murdered by members of the Schonfeld Culture)represents the importance of the family unit.
Delete@Annie Mouse
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, history was made with violence. Every time there's a "clash" of different peoples, one group imposes over another, that's why we keep seeing yDNA shifts while the mtDNA keeps relative stable - Men kill each other and take the Women as spoil.
The lack of continuity shows that it was not a happy gathering.
@Ryan
ReplyDeletebut if that would be the case (Iberian_MN+CW females=BB folks), than the farmer-admix in BB would be akin to ATP folks (Iberia_MN/Chl) but acc to olalde et al the best fit is TRB and GAC and excludes Iberia as the non-steppe farmer source; also by lineage it does not add up, most Iberia BB (with majority no steppe-admix) are of I2a lineage and not R1b whereas all non-Iberian BB folks are almost exclusively R1b(P312); and yet that would be the marked lineage of an out-of Iberia expansion;
Annie Mouse: Slaves, concubines and maids have babies too. It is most likely that the daughters went out via the same mechanism that their mothers arrived in the community.
ReplyDeleteThis is the most sensible objection; even if people of this level of culture and structure did have anything like concubines (seems doubtful?), then it doesn't make sense in the historical pattern (of any of the societies we have) not to have offspring with them (lower fertility, not zero).
One thing I would say about all this stuff is that there seems like an assumption of male immobility because of the lack of presence of outside males at the community sites. But this does not mean that males are not migrating out, if not to other sites, then to new sites. This is still an early point where much of Europe is unsettled.
alexfritz: but if that would be the case (Iberian_MN+CW females=BB folks), than the farmer-admix in BB would be akin to ATP folks (Iberia_MN/Chl) but acc to olalde et al the best fit is TRB and GAC and excludes Iberia as the non-steppe farmer source
Technically, the Olalde behemoth (in indefinite preprint purgatory) only models Central European BB as Yamnaya+(Farmer), not Corded_Ware+(Other_MN).
MN France + Corded Ware is more likely anyway.
(Corded Ware model in Mathieson as 11:20:70 WHG:AN:Yamnaya against Bell_Beaker_Germany 15:37:48 WHG:AN:Yamnaya. That works out that Bell Beaker can model as 70% Corded Ware and 30% of a 25:75 WHG:AN mix. Of some sort).
@zardos
ReplyDeleteWhat they seem to have found is the system within the established ethnicity. Males migrated most of the time in groups whereas females could be exchanged individualy. This is nothing new but something known.
No no no no. You could not be more wrong! Steppe admixture moved from the steppe to Ireland in the span of 300+ years and only diluted to about half. That means the average instance of a steppe male mating with non steppe female could be no more than 1 in 20. (There was 20 generations between the steppe people of Ukraine/Russia and the steppe like people of Ireland.) Steppe women, or steppe admixed women, had to have been traveling with the men.
This paper is about a brief instance when female exogamy was common, and it may explain the few instances of non steppe introgression into these steppe admixed people. Again, think in terms of 1/20 of a steppe man marrying a non steppe woman. Its rare. Then, the bell beakers who moved from central europe to ireland look autosomally unchanged which means women were moving with men, again.
@Alex - The spread out of Iberia seems to have had only a modest demographic impact. By the time they reached central Europe they were mostly descended from the various groups closer to central Europe. A ship of Theseus.
ReplyDeleteJust FYI though 2/7 Iberian Bell Beaker samples that we have are R1b. One is R1b(xM269) and the other we don't know one way or the other if it's M269 or not. I think not is the most likely and that the Bell Beakers assimilated R1b-M269 somewhere closer to the Danube, but still... worth keeping an open mind on.
@Chad - "Out of Iberia is dead. Don't waste anyone's time with that mess. Bell Beaker and Yamnaya share a single man in the Copper Age. They can't be in Iberia and Eastern Europe at the same time. M269 and L23 only appear in people with Steppe ancestry. Neither originated in Western Europe. Moving on..."
I'm talking about the archaeology. Do you really object to that?
I think Hungary is a more likely ground zero for that ancestor by the way, and they can cross the Carpathians between Hungary and the Ukraine easily enough. I won't pretend that there's any kind of strong data for that though. We need a lot more samples to exclude or settle on any single scenario IMHO.
Further east. Hungary is out. There's something like 200 samples from there EN-BA, and there isn't anything pointing to L51 or P312 there. Nor any L23 needed to be ancestral to both BB and Yamnaya. It's unlikely to be further west than Ukraine or Belarus at the moment.
Delete@Colin - This paper is about a brief instance when female exogamy was common, and it may explain the few instances of non steppe introgression into these steppe admixed people. Again, think in terms of 1/20 of a steppe man marrying a non steppe woman. Its rare. Then, the bell beakers who moved from central europe to ireland look autosomally unchanged which means women were moving with men, again.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind it can just as easily explain steppe ancestry introgressing into non-steppe peoples. And there's no denying that the Bell Beakers originated as a non-steppe culture.
Wasn't there demographic collapse in Ireland and Britain just prior to the Bronze Age though? Not surprising that a mostly empty country could be settled with little change to the settlers' DNA.
When will this article be available to read? Will MtDNA haplogroups be included?
ReplyDeleteLol Dental traits versus actual DNA evidence we have? Dental traits are useless. DNA already showed that. It's over...
ReplyDelete@Matt,
ReplyDeleteDon't even flirt with the ideas of Olympus and others. Olympus, Nijhar007, Gioello, and others push any theory that makes R1b native to Iberia or R1a native to India.
This is why Olympus pushes the Corded Ware+IberiaMN=North Bell Beaker theory. He wants North Bell Beaker's Steppe ancestry to be female mediated so that R1b P312 can be from Iberia or anywhere other than the Steppe.
No, North Bell Beaker is not France MN+Corded Ware. I doubt there's much Corded Ware ancestry in North Bell Beaker at all. Ever since the firt Y DNA results from Bell Beaker and Corded Ware in 2012 I've considered Bell Beaker and Corded Ware as two distinct peoples who may have exhcanged culture but not genes.
Off topic: Some interesting abstracts out for ASHG 2017:
ReplyDeletehttps://ep70.eventpilotadmin.com/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG17&id=170122885 - Novel loci associated with skin pigmentation identified in African populations - Further, the alleles associated with skin pigmentation at all loci but SLC24A5 (lighter and darker skin pigmentation associated alleles within Africa are ancient, predating the origin of modern humans. The ancestral alleles at the majority of predicted causal SNPs are associated with light skin, raising the possibility that the ancestors of modern humans could have had relatively light skin color, as is observed in the San population today. This study sheds new light on the evolutionary history of pigmentation in humans.
(See how these variants check out in non-Africans as well, esp. East Asian. Possibly WHG not quite so dark as we might have thought from West African->European pigment association studies?).
https://ep70.eventpilotadmin.com/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG17&id=170122064 - Exploration of the ancestral genetic landscape of the Arabian Peninsula. - In this study, we sought to explore the population genetics of the Arabian Peninsula, identify likely ancient source populations, and investigate evidence of ancient migrations and admixture using PCA, ADMIXTURE, f3, ALDER, and LDA. ADMIXTURE identified two major contributors to the modern Arabian peninsula populations: an early expansion marked by Natufian aDNA samples, and a component Persian Gulf associated component. PCA distinguishes between the Natufian genetics and the Arabian Pensinsula group that ADMIXTURE combines. Gumuz and Somali admixture impacts the Peninsula, Egypt, and the Levant. Admixture between the Natufian genetic component and East Africa show significant negative f3 statistics admixing in Egypt, and similarly Egyptian and the Natufian genetic component admixing in East Africa in both directions. Ancient Anatolian genetics have penetrated the study region except for Yemen according to f3.
I knew sooner or later they will find that light skin mutations is much older than previously predicted simply because Chimps are born with a pink skin under their darker coat of hair and some staying light skinned into their early adulthood.
DeleteAnd I always wondered why Khoi-San peoples skin were so light when they live in places which are extremely exposed to the Sun like the Namib and Kalahari deserts while Central Africans basically live under a dense forest canopy with very little sunlight penetrating to groundlevel....
https://ep70.eventpilotadmin.com/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG17&id=170122074 - Using ancient DNA from Sardinia to assess population stability from the Neolithic to present - Here we directly assess continuity using genome-wide capture data (~1.2 millions SNPs) of 26 ancient humans from the island of Sardinia spanning the Neolithic, Copper Age, and Bronze Age, including individuals from the Nuragic culture. ... Projecting these ancient individuals on to modern axes of genetic variation, as defined by principal component analysis on a large-scale reference dataset of modern human populations from Sardinia, Europe and the Middle East, reveals no obvious temporal structure within Sardinia within this long time frame. Consistent with previous hypotheses of early migrations in Europe, we observe clustering of these ancient individuals with previously published sequences of ancient humans associated with an 'early farming' Neolithic culture.
ReplyDeleteSuggests that if no disruptive changes in Neolithic, Copper Age, and Bronze Age, present day Sardinians probably acquired steppe / CHG related ancestry via Iron Age or Roman admixture (male biased if Charleston Chiang's previous work accurate). Also Nuragic Culture (Bronze / copper weapons and tools, Beaker Culture influence) doesn't appear associated with steppe ancestry, per abstract (cultural diffusion?).
https://ep70.eventpilotadmin.com/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG17&id=170120146 and https://ep70.eventpilotadmin.com/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG17&id=170122824. Both relating to Polynesian migrations. Most interesting part - we show that the ancient contact with Native Americans took place in Polynesian “up stream” of Easter Island, that is, before its settlement, and that this component was then carried to Easter Island by its admixed founders.
https://ep70.eventpilotadmin.com/web/page.php?page=IntHtml&project=ASHG17&id=170120738 - The Irish DNA Atlas: Revealing fine scale population structure and history within Ireland
@ Matt
DeleteThanks for all these.
@ Samuel Andrews
ReplyDelete"@Matt,
Don't even flirt with the ideas of Olympus and others. Olympus, Nijhar007, Gioello, and others push any theory that makes R1b native to Iberia or R1a native to India".
Actually I never said that R1b was born in Iberia. I am the theorist of an "Italian Refugium" and not of an Iberian one. I said that I thought that R1b migrated to Iberia with the Zilhao migration of 7500 years ago (certainly R-V88 found in aDNA of 7100 ya), but I said that also some R-L51 may have come to Iberia from Italy, and I didn't agree with the YFull dates, but I think that they should be multiplied for an 1.17 or 1.26 factor. The recent paper of Skov et al. (Analysis of 62 hybrid assembled human Y chromosomes exposes rapid structural changes and high rates of genes conversion) seems to give reason to me about the separation between R1a an R1b.
@About new mtDNA results from BBC-EBA Bavaria Germany,
ReplyDeleteThe North Beaker folk mitogenome count is now at 165. That's a lot. The North Beaker folk mtDNA database is comparable to Neolithic Hungary and Neolithic Spain.
Not much can be said honestly other than BBC-EBA Bavaria mtDNA clusters tightly with modern European or specifically NorthWestern European mtDNA. The same though could be said about Neolithic Britain and Spain (not Neolithic Hungary and Turkey) if one doesn't pay attention to tiny details. Each carries most defining characteristics of modern (Western) European mtDNA except for some minor things (mostly a pantheon of rare mhGs from the Steppe).
I'm probably missing some tiny important details in the new mtDNA from BBC-EBA Bavaria. You won't believe how uniform European mtDNA is and how difficult it is to find significant diversity (they're the tiny important details). I can confidently say BBC-EBA Bavaria does lack some important tiny aspects of the "North Slavic" (Russia, Poland), Italian, and Balkan mtDNA gene pools.
Anyways, I did find some interesting things. North Bell Beaker only had 27% mHG H, Neolithic Britain has 18%, Neolithic Spain has under 20% as well. Like I've said before, I think mHG H reached 40% across Europe due to natural selection not mass migration by a population with 75% mHG H.
Also, out of 165 samples North Bell Beaker has 9% U5b, 10% U5a, and 14% K. U5a peaks in the East Baltic and Russia at 8-10%, U5b peaks in Spain at 6%, K peaks in Ireland at 12%. Across Northern Europe U5a is usually at 5-7% and U5b at 3-5%.
The North Bell Beaker belonged to the same U5b, U5a, K clades as my modern Western Europe mitogenomes but at a significantly higher frequency. Maybe natural selection is the cause for a decrease in mHG U frequency and increase of mHG H frequencies.
@Matt
ReplyDeleteNice papers.
I was curious about this one here for a time: "Exploration of the ancestral genetic landscape of the Arabian Peninsula."
Arabs/BedouinB were clearly "standard" Levantines who mixed with East Africans, and I wanted to know how, why, when, who, where, etc etc
@Ric Hern, that's true re: chimps. Though I think the usual thinking was that although alleles coding for light skin under fur would have been common in the earliest ancestors of humans, but would likely have been removed by the ancestral Homo Erectus population.
ReplyDeleteSo lighter pigment variants ancestral in early Homo with derived darker variants, then the darker pigment variants are ancestral in early Homo Sapiens, with lighter as derived variants from them.
This seems to be saying that may not have been the case ("the alleles associated with skin pigmentation at all loci but SLC24A5 are ancient, predating the origin of modern humans"), and that the lighter variants may have stuck around for a long time. Early H. Sap may have been lighter brown that we thought, with rising frequencies of darker pigmentation variants in some Africans, Oceanians, etc.
Though there's still a tricky thing here where they are are talking about "(t)he ancestral alleles at the majority of predicted causal SNPs" (except SLC24A5 variants) "are associated with light skin, raising the possibility that the ancestors of modern humans could have had relatively light skin color, as is observed in the San population today", as other recent work finds "a new result from southern Africa presented at the SMBE meeting this year ... uses a broad panel of KhoeSan populations to find that the derived allele on SLC24A5 reaches ~40% frequency" (https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/07/09/slc24a5-is-very-important-but-we-dont-know-why/). These two groups need to get their heads together.
(Glad I don't have to deal xyxman's comments on this...).
@ Matt
DeleteHeheheeeh. True. What is interesting about the North African Atlas region and the Mediterranean Coast is that Red Deer are found in these areas as well as the now Extinct Black Atlas Bear was found there. Plus Heavy Snowfalls is not uncommon in the Atlas region.
This makes me think that the Atlas region and maybe the broader Mediterranean Coast could have been a refuge for lighter skinned individuals during the earlier transition of Archaic Homo Sapiens to more modern looking Homo Sapiens.
Sorry: Atlas Brown Bear...
Delete@ Sam
ReplyDeleteThis is why Olympus pushes the Corded Ware+IberiaMN=North Bell Beaker theory. He wants North Bell Beaker's Steppe ancestry to be female mediated so that R1b P312 can be from Iberia or anywhere other than the Steppe.
To be honest, I don't really care why he pushes it. The most likely origin for R1b P312 based on the current tree and ancient samples is Eastern Europe (somewhere). That's regardless of whether there was any demographic movement such that the ancestry of Central European Bell Beakers is from earlier Western European groups identified with the Beaker Culture.
I only argue for France_MN+Corded Ware being possible and needing to be considered because it seems to make more sense to me that it involves some demographic movement along the chain Portugal->France->Central Europe rather than being purely culture alone. Not to push any "R1b P312 males from Iberia took Corded Ware women" type of thing that's wrong.
(The way Olympus presents his arguments is largely incomprehensible to me though, so I have lttle idea really exactly what he tries to say, so I don't even know if this is an accurate summation or what).
No, North Bell Beaker is not France MN+Corded Ware. I doubt there's much Corded Ware ancestry in North Bell Beaker at all.
I don't know if this what you're proposing but the idea that the Northern Beaker is Yamnaya+Central European MN means that Corded Ware left no (or almost no) continuity into Beaker or later people. That just seems... ridiculously unlikely. Maybe it's true, it just seems crazy to me.
(And I try humour and consider most things! When I can make out what they're saying, which I largely can't with Gioello and Olympus Mons because of their spam like presentation of data and marginal English fluency)
@Ryan
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind it can just as easily explain steppe ancestry introgressing into non-steppe peoples. And there's no denying that the Bell Beakers originated as a non-steppe culture.
I dont know what you are trying to say.
Wasn't there demographic collapse in Ireland and Britain just prior to the Bronze Age though? Not surprising that a mostly empty country could be settled with little change to the settlers' DNA.
I'm not sure. Either way, the women traveled with the men, ie it was a migration. We now have plenty examples of different ethnic groups living side by side for hundreds of years and not intermingling.
For the most part, that is how steppe ancestry moved from the steppe to ireland.
@Matt
ReplyDeleteIt is unlikely that Northern BBs were the result of a mix between French MN and CW. Late Neolithic cultures (Artenac & SOM) in France were contemporary with BBs, who were present only in some places. Late SOM seems to have been influenced by CW, but it's too late to be connected to BBs.
@Folker, not convinced Bell Beaker culture only being in present in some parts of France and not others makes a synthesis of culture (and genes) between those early Bell Beakers who were in France, and a Corded Ware Culture in Central Europe either more or less likely.
ReplyDeleteReich lab is moving on to haplotypes and that's where we will get a good answer on this stuff.
@ Matt
ReplyDeleteI think the problem is that BB didn't originate in Iberia. So there was neither cultural nor genetic flow
The conundrum is solved
@Rob, if that works, it's probably more believable than the culture only flow Olalde 2017 discusses! I don't know enough about archaeology to know if it works, and it rather seems to fly of Bell Beaker as a coherent cultural phenomenon orignating with "Maritime" Bell Beaker in Portugal and picking up a steppe character into Central Europe.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if that's wrong, it's wrong (and I suspect I need to bone up on "Bell Beaker Blogger" to actually understand what is happening here, if anyone actually does).
Though even still I don't really believe the methods Olalde 2017 has so far to model the Bell Beaker culture as Yamnaya+MN, and I still see it as pretty doubtful that we're talking about a culture which essentially replaced the Corded Ware without admixture (as would have to happen if all subsequent cultures had lower levels of steppe ancestry, which they do, and Bell Beaker itself isn't descended from Corded Ware!).
@Gioiello,
ReplyDeleteThere was possibility for an origin in Italy for R1b and the other haplogroups you claim originated in Italy in 2010 but not in 2017 because in 2017 we have ancient DNA.
Ancient DNA has unravelled the migrations which brought Europeans' (including their haplogroups) ancestors to Europe and Italy isn't one of the places they came from. It's time you swallow that pill. EEF is from Turkey, Steppe is from Russia, we don't know where WHG came from it could have been Italy but R1b L151 isn't from WHG.
I wonder if the I2a in Iberian Bell Beakers can be linked to the Vucedol or Proto-Vucedol Culture ?
ReplyDeleteWe see a majority of I2a in Vucedol and some R1b in the Northern extremities of this Culture.
So maybe R1b was already aware of a "similar" type of culture in the Balkans and Hungary and maybe already adopted some aspects of this Culture before migrating to Germany where they adopted the more complete package of the relatively same people who first migrated to Iberia via a Sea Route and then traded from there all over Western Europe ?
So the Culture or Cultural objects in Germany may not have been quite so foreign looking for the R1b people migrating from Hungary up the Danube...
@Ric Hern,
ReplyDelete"I wonder if the I2a in Iberian Bell Beakers can be linked to the Vucedol or Proto-Vucedol Culture ? "
Probably not considering everyone had lots of I2a in the Neolithic. Early R1b P312 folk and early Beaker folk in Iberia were two completely unrelated and separate peoples.
@ Samuel
ReplyDeleteYes they were completely unrelated however there could have been earlier trade with the Vucedol or Proto-Vucedol I2a who could have migrated to Portugal via a Sea Route.
So maybe these people already knew about each others existence Culturally and not necessarily through admixing.That is what I meant.
@ Samuel Andrews
ReplyDelete"@Gioiello,
There was possibility for an origin in Italy for R1b and the other haplogroups you claim originated in Italy in 2010 but not in 2017 because in 2017 we have ancient DNA.
Ancient DNA has unravelled the migrations which brought Europeans' (including their haplogroups) ancestors to Europe and Italy isn't one of the places they came from. It's time you swallow that pill. EEF is from Turkey, Steppe is from Russia, we don't know where WHG came from it could have been Italy but R1b L151 isn't from WHG".
I thank you, first of all for having written correctly my name. Thanx. About the origin of R-L51 (and of all the R1b1 haplogroup), you know that I think that:
1) R1 was the hg of the hunter-gatherers of the Siberian corridor.
2) That R1a and R1b separated not 22000 years ago but long before (you know that I think that the YFull dates should be multiplied at least for an 1.17 factor, and also the last paper of Skol et al seems to think the same), thus also all the other hgs are older.
3) I have said that the subclades found at Samara weren't all the subclades of R-L23, but that some subclades were remained in Western Europe, including mine: R-L23-Z2110-FGC24408. I am waiting to know how old is the separations from the haplotypes found in the Caucasus, etc etc. I wrote detailed things about that. The paper of Balanovsky et al said the same: R-L51 didn't come from Eastern Europe.
4) I am waiting that the aDNA in the labs is published, above all the 50 samples from Italy c/o Pinhasi.
5) We are testing samples in Eastern Liguria and Western Tuscany and all is in favour of my theory.
6) There is a conspiracy then? I wrote detailed things also about that.
7) All the analysis based upon autosome is falsified from imputation and linked disequilibrium. I stay to the Y and the mt.
@ Samuel
ReplyDeleteSo what I'm basically saying is that Yamnaya related people migrated into Hungary where they came into contact with people influenced by the more Southern Vucedol.
Then the Yamnaya related people migrated up the Danube and down the Elbe while some Vucedol I2a migrated to Portugal via a Sea Route from the Western Balkans.
So they came into contact briefly near Csepel and eventually again in Germany...
@ Matt
ReplyDeleteOf course it "works" because it's a correct interpretation of data. Just read "Absolute chronology of the Beaker phenomenon North of the Tagus estuary: demographic and social implications" and also have at the back of your mind what else was happening in 2800BC (and ignore the peripheral chit chat).
@Rob, having familiarised myself with this, I am none the wiser. If you don't mind, and in one or two paragraphs if possible, where do you think that they originated, why and why has there been thought to be a wider Bell Beaker sphere between Iberia and the Beaker culture of Central Europe if "neither cultural nor genetic flow"?
ReplyDelete@ Matt
ReplyDeleteI understood some key sentences from the paper, such as "In fact, based on the archaeological record identified at Leceia since the end of the Early Chalcolithic it
is possible to admit that that two communities with different cultural roots coexisted with a lower level of interaction (and conflict) during the course of the Chalcolithic in Lower Estremadura. And the reinforcement of this coexistence, with the increment of interaction, between Beaker and indigenous productions at the majority of walled settlements of Lower Estremadura, during the 2nd half of the 3rd millennium BC shows that inherent interaction did not appear to have been conflictive. On the contrary, there are examples of decorated
ceramics that congregates Beaker and local patterns."
The author is implying that Beaker-"Maritime" pottery has no local antecedants, although when it arrived, it co-existed with the local Chalcolithic groups.
Moreover, the evidence from Leceia shows that the settlement with Beakers occurs *outside* the nearby fort, thus contrary to OM's assertions, whoever brought the tradition with them were humble colonists, coming as a family groups. Very soon, however, the Beaker tradition became a status symbol found inside the forts, where elites presumably lived and/or undertook ceremonies.
So, despite 'early" dates for BB in Portugal (and mind you this does not apply to the rest of Iberia, where BB appears quite late in some places), it seems to be a new idea/ tradition of pottery. Given the maritime (afterall) location of Portugal, I would posit that the idea came from Rhenish Corded Ware groups, which had reached the netherlands by 2800 BC. So the appearance of Maritime Beakers in Portugal c. 27/2600 BC dovetails nicely.
The lack of "steppe" admixture in Chalcolithic Iberians to date is not surprising, given that we are dealing with perhaps a handful of individuals bringing ideas (although I recall a couple of the Iberian BB females had such ancestry (?)).
So maybe the Tagus region popularized the idea of BB ceramics, but the ultimate inspiration probably came from the Rhine region, as advocated by the Dutch model.
To get into greater details, petrological analyses suggest that BB were mostly locally made, with the exception of isolated examples, eg from Switzerland, which appear to have been imports from more distant regions. The Swiss Valais region might be responsible for bringing Maritime Beakers to central Europe, so it was Swiss steppe-derived folk who brought it from beyond the Rhine-Rhone back with them, rather than the expected Iberian exodus. This explains the genetics.
@ OM
ReplyDeleteWrong. The greatest "diversity" is in NW Europe - where one sees Maritime, AOC, PFB, CWC 'beakers'.
@Olympus, no, definitely mainly your fluency and presentation style.
ReplyDelete@ Rob, I see. Well that's nice and dumbed down for me ;) (Though I could quibble it's not quite "neither cultural nor genetic flow"!). Cheers.
ReplyDelete@ Matt
DeleteNot DD at all, and that's my take on it anyhow
I know BBB covered it a while ago. It would be interesting to see what he says about it
(PS I did not say no flow, I was merely suggesting that we have perhaps been looking at the wrong direction of flow).
@Rob and Matt
ReplyDeleteMy first impression when I read that this study showed strict patrilocality with women coming from afar was that such a thing was also pretty common with European nobility until very recent. It even still is the norm with European royalty.
But then this: "Strikingly, we failed to identify offspring of the nonlocal females, as none of the subadults or adults of either sex shared an identical haplotype with any of them." Now, maybe the Lech valley samples simply missed that offspring. But considering the fact that they have quite a number of samples I think we can a least call it a trend.
I have been thinking about that. I think slavery type of explanations can be ruled out as the burials were quite respectful. I can come up with a "political" marriages plus polygamy scenario. Alliances were forged, women sent out to marry as second wive. But their progeny could still have been considered part of the originating tribe, people, alliance, what have you. Almost like Romans holing sons of barbarians hostage and sending them back.
@ OM
ReplyDeleteNot everyone is convinced that the Copos is the predecessor of BB.
Your analysis is myopic, on the one hand, looking at Estremadura in isolation, and thinking something which is part of a broader network of cultural changes originated at the end of the link. on the other hand, you imagine migrations which did not occurr and neglect the ones which obviously did.