The hot topic at the moment is social inequality in Bronze Age Europe, thanks to a new paper by Mittnik et al. at
Science. The full article is sitting behind an exceedingly robust paywall
here.
However, the genotype dataset from the paper is freely available at the Max Planck Society's Edmond data repository
here. Below is my Principal Component Analysis (PCA) of ancient West Eurasian genetic variation featuring 41 of the highest quality ancients from the new dataset. Almost all of them are from the Lech Valley in the Bavarian Alps, covering the period from the Bell Beaker culture (BBC) to the Middle Bronze Age (MBA). Two of the samples are from a mass Corded Ware culture (CWC) burial in the more northerly Tauber Valley.
I've also highlighted other ancients on the plot associated with the BBC and CWC from present-day Netherlands and Germany, respectively. The relevant PCA datasheet can be downloaded
here.
Social stratification in ancient Europe is a fascinating topic, and it's an issue that I've started looking at myself (see
here). However, I can't see any correlation between the inferred social standing of the individuals from the Lech and Tauber valleys and their positions in my PCA.
Nevertheless, the PCA is interesting in that it highlights considerable genetic heterogeneity within the Lech Valley BBC population. Indeed, how is this heterogeneity even possible, if, as per Mittnik et al., ancient DNA "has shown that the spread of the BBC throughout continental Europe did not involve large-scale migrations"?
Below is another version of my PCA, but this time focusing on three males: Lech Valley Beakers UNTA58_68Sk1 and WEHR_1192SkA, as well as ALT_4 from the aforementioned mass CWC grave in the Tauber Valley. Note that UNTA58_68Sk1 and WEHR_1192SkA represent genetically the most southern and northern, respectively, Lech Valley BBC samples that had enough data to be run in my analysis. I chose to focus on males because they carry the Y-chromosome, which can be informative about male-mediated ancient population expansions.
The PCA outcomes for these individuals are generally in line with their results in other types of genetic analyses, including those based on formal statistics. For instance, compared to the other two, ALT_4 harbors excess early steppe herder ancestry, UNTA58_68Sk1 excess early European farmer ancestry, and WEHR_1192SkA excess European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Moreover...
- UNTA58_68Sk1 shows a non-local isotopic signature and belongs to Y-haplogroup G2a, a marker essentially missing from BBC populations north of the Alps, and is best modeled as a two-way mixture between Bronze Age populations from the Balkans and the Pontic-Caspian steppe (see here), which probably means that he was a migrant to the Lech Valley from south of the Alps
- importantly, UNTA58_68Sk1 is not an isolated case, at least in the sense that several other BBC individuals from Bavaria, Bohemia, Hungary and Poland show varying ratios of Balkan-related ancestry, although almost all of these people are women
- WEHR_1192SkA is very similar to Bell Beakers from the northern Netherlands with whom he shares the R1b-P312 Y-haplogroup, suggesting that he was part of a population that moved into the Lech Valley from potentially as far away as the North Sea coast
- although ALT_4 probably shares the R1b-L51 Y-haplogroup with WEHR_1192SkA and many other BBC and Bronze Age individuals from the Bavarian Alps and surrounds, this can't be used as evidence of significant local genetic continuity after the CWC period, especially considering the comparatively eastern genome-wide structure of ALT_4.
Of course, archeological data suggest that the BBC was influenced in some important ways by the Copper and Bronze Age cultures of the Balkans and Carpathian Basin. So much so, in fact, that Marija Gimbutas, author of
The Civilization of the Goddess, believed that the BBC originated in the Balkans from a synthesis of the local Vucedol culture and the intrusive Yamnaya culture from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.
Considering the ancient DNA evidence, however, the main demographic center of the early BBC could not have been south of the Alps.
Rather, it appears that early BBC and even CWC groups from north of the Alps moved into the Balkans and Carpathian Basin, where they may have established contacts with the local elites. If so, this might explain the significant southern cultural influences on the BBC, but limited accompanying genetic impact. This scenario also has support from archeological data (for instance, see
here).
See also...
Is Yamnaya overrated?
The Boscombe Bowmen
Single Grave > Bell Beakers
Everyone interested in this topic should read this open access paper from back in 1989...
ReplyDeleteRadiocarbon Dating of the Vučedol Culture Complex
It's strange that Dr. David Reich maintains that the Beaker Complex originated in Western Europe rather than in Central Europe or the Upper Rhine area of The Netherlands:
ReplyDeletehttps://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/steppe-migration-to-india-was-between-3500-4000-years-ago-david-reich/articleshow/71556277.cms
"However, lack of material culture connections does not provide evidence against spread of genes, as has been demonstrated in the case of the Beaker Complex, which originated largely in western Europe but in Central Europe was associated with skeletons that harbored ~50% ancestry related to Yamnaya Steppe pastoralists"
Are you suggesting by your comments about the WEHR_1192SkA having an excess of WHG ancestry and at the same time being very similar to Bell Beakers from the northern Netherlands - that Bell Beakers were rich in WHG ancestry compared to CWC and Single Grave Culture? It's seems like you're also alluding to it when you referenced the Boscombe Bowman link, whereby you wrote that current Anglo-Saxon Brits and modern day Scandinavians are richer in WHG ancestry.
ReplyDeleteAs for the heterogeneity of the BBC, I have always contended, against the opinion of other posters, chief among them @Samuel Andrews that BBC was a very heterogeneous complex, owning to the fact that just like other Steppe-derived populations like CWC and SGC - Bell Beakers tended to mix with farmer and forager populations along the line (sex-based intermarriage, of course!). To boot - the BA Iberian population's Steppe admixture is down to 40% because of admixture with local females (of Cardial Pottery farmer with a considerable amount of WHG + some Magdalenian HGs).
ReplyDeleteThere aren't any Single Grave samples available yet, but I expect them to be basically identical to the Dutch Beakers.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't believe that the Beaker complex originated in Iberia. At best, Iberian Copper Age cultures had some cultural influence on the Beaker complex, but probably less than those in the Balkans and Carpathian Basin.
@Davidski "And I don't believe that the Beaker complex originated in Iberia. At best, Iberian Copper Age cultures had some cultural influence on the Beaker complex, but probably less than those in the Balkans and Carpathian Basin."
ReplyDeleteWasn't me who said it, but Dr. Reich. I was surprised that he thinks like our fellow commentator @Gaska.
I wouldn't be so sure that the Balkan Vucedol exerted much cultural and perhaps even linguistic influence on the BBC. In any case, why would Vucedol be emphasized in lieu of other farmer cultures like C-T?
There's no evidence that the C-T had any connections with the BBC. It was long gone by that time anyway.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's my own personal opinion, but to me it seems that the Yamnaya Hungary and Yamnaya Bulgaria (or a similar population represented by the ALT_4 sample might've been the vector pushing for the Indo-Europeanization of the Balkan, as represented by Paleo-Balkan languages e.g. Thracian, Illyrian, Phrygian and perhaps Anatolian languages and Porto-Armenian if indeed the latter 2 branches passed via the Balkans.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that UNTA58_68Sk1 shows excess West Asian related ancestry compared to CWC and Beaker Pops. Clusters right with some of the Hungarian Beakers/Nagyrev on your PCA.
ReplyDeleteRe; female based admixture a quick cautionary note on comparing what you might see from West Eurasia PCA in female vs male samples to the paper's formal stat:
ReplyDelete1) Looking at samples from the paper with enough quality to run an f4(Mbuti,X;AnatoliaN,Yamnaya) stat which they've reported: https://imgur.com/a/DiUomEm
Females start out quite strongly more Yamnaya related than males at the start of the sequence (2500 BCE), then it crosses over at about 2100-1950BCE to females being very shallowly more Anatolian related around (possibly not at all within standard error), and they've essentially converged by 1500BCE.
2) The F4 stat correlates quite well with the West Eurasia PC2: https://imgur.com/a/WlSF2eN . Less so PC1, but PC2 should reflect Anatolia->Steppe better anyway.
3) However looking at plotting West Eurasia PC2 vs time, this would overestimate the shift in females from being more Yamnaya like to being more EEF like - https://imgur.com/a/HOaWvtg
I.e. where in the f4 stat sequence, the males and females largely just converge in distance to Anatolia and Yamnaya, the West Eurasia PCA would show the female becoming more EEF towards the mid-late sequence.
Essentially as it seems to many of the later and more steppe like females (via f4 stat) have dropped off of being able to translate to West Eurasia PCA.
So you might overestimate the shift in sex-biased female migration from an EEF-richer source, if you looked at the samples that got onto West Eurasia PCA only!
That's because there are three different ancestral populations involved: local CWC, northern Beakers and southern Beakers.
ReplyDeleteThey're represented by three different males in my analysis, but I never said that the gene flow from them was mostly male-mediated.
I'm not trying to correct you or anything, just adding a caution for anyone reading who was inclined to look at the West Eurasia 9 positions alone and draw conclusions rather than the formal stat from the paper.
ReplyDeleteThe Beakers are bored, their over-tested >~four times more than Corded, and it's useless. It would be much more interesting and necessary to test Corded from different cultures, so that they would be no less than the Beakers, as well as representatives of the Unetice and Tumulus cultures, which are not tested at all.
ReplyDeleteAnd in Western Europe, instead of the over-tested Spain, France that is completely untested.
I'm kind of shooting from the hip without the paper, but..
ReplyDeleteThe results beautifully explain the Central European begleitkeramik phenomenon since it looks like women from the Eastern Beaker Domain are moving into Beaker enclaves in Central Europe.
I think it also explains the disparity of the types of common ware that have some kind of illogical pattern as they spread, that's because individual women are moving from different countries.
The second class foreigners could be slaves and concubines (or their children), but a spectrum of possibilities exist. Some professions may have required the use of foreigners, either free or captive, who were metal workers or prostitutes that existed within the Beaker network and not from the local natives.
This should have been open access!!
https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/bekasmegyer-begleitkeramik-beakers.html
@Archi
ReplyDeleteUnetice is tested, check the Global25 sheet. There are samples from Germany, Poland and the Czech rep.
And Lech Valley MBA must be Tumulus culture, considering the date and the location of the samples.
@Romulus
Excess West Asian related ancestry in UNTA58_68Sk1? Only if by that expression you mean Barcin_N…
[1] "distance%=3.5198"
DEU_Lech_BBC:UNTA58_68Sk1
Barcin_N,56.5
Yamnaya_Samara,35.4
WHG,8.1
Anatolia_EBA_Isparta,0
Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren,0
Ganj_Dareh_N,0
Natufian,0
Morocco_Iberomaurusian,0
Re; over-testing, sampling at the moment everywhere has gaps of minimal coverage in many intervals most of interest.
ReplyDeleteIn the steppe there is a gap around the transition of Catacomb/Poltavka -> Potapovka/Sintashta, where the series starts to run out around 2400-2300 and is sparse until 1900 BCE.
In England there are few samples around 3000-2500 BCE so the series likely does not cover the first people with steppe ancestry in the Isles.
Etc. Even in the Iberian series which is good, I think they have taken a >10% steppe or nothing approach to estimating steppe ancestry in late Copper Age Iberians that probably distorts things slightly by missing some low level admixing in a few samples during the initial overlap.
Simon_W said...
ReplyDelete" Unetice is tested, check the Global25 sheet. There are samples from Germany, Poland and the Czech rep."
Too bad, too long ago. There are only three male haplogroups.
" And Lech Valley MBA must be Tumulus culture, considering the date and the location of the samples."
No, it's not the Tumulus culture. The burials there are the same as in the EBA, according to the same customs as in the Straubing culture, only things correspond to the early MBA.
Why is the Tumulus culture so important?
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that the Urnfield culture is important, but it cremated, and since most places were smooth transition from Tumulus culture to Urnfield, we can expect that the population has not changed much, although accompanied by catastrophic events. But the changes from the Corded Ware culture to the Unetice culture and then to the Tumulus culture were disastrous, so we should assume large changes in the populations.
The results of the Lech Valley are very important regarding the role played by women in Prehistory. It is true that there are typical Iberian lineages, but there are also those of the German Neolithic cultures. However, many come directly from Eastern cultures H2a1/U5a1i-(Khvalynsk), U5a1a and H2a1e (Samara, Lopatino), U4a1 (yamnaya), H2a1a (Sredni Stog), H5a1 (GAC)m H6a (CWC), H13a1a1 etc ...
ReplyDeleteAnd we must bear in mind that the vast majority of the samples analyzed belong to the BB culture and not to the CWC, this means that in Central Europe the BBs joined women of the CWC with origins in the steppes. This explains those high levels of steppe ancestry in the samples. From my point of view R1bL51/P311/P312, he was at home and acquired his steppe ancestry from their mothers. If this lineage originated in the east, would not the ancestry levels be much higher?
@Archi “But the changes from the Corded Ware culture to the Unetice culture and then to the Tumulus culture were disastrous, so we should assume large changes in the populations.“
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean “disastrous”? Can you elaborate? How can you explain the change of populations?
@ Archi
ReplyDelete“But the changes from the Corded Ware culture to the Unetice culture and then to the Tumulus culture were disastrous, so we should assume large changes in the populations”
In areas of Central Europe where this occurred; the change was from CWC -> BB-> Unetice
Yes we would expect population shifts
@Gaska One sad fact is that Dr. Reich appears to agree with you concerning the origins of BB Cultures.
ReplyDeleteThere were no cultural shifts CWC -> BBC in Central Europe. They have always been different populations, existing at the same time, in general. The entire the crux of the in is, that the Unetice culture looks as not Indo-European, and of course has mysterious origins, perhaps as a mixture of Indo-European and Renaissance non-Indo-European population.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Steppe rich women were prized during those times. Perhaps they were considerably more fair skin than most Central European women, and rich Beaker men simply paid for them? Even today there’s a mystique about East European women that American and some West European men are fascinated by, although it’s no longer about skin fairness.
ReplyDeleteThat Unetice is not IE Might be purely speculation
ReplyDeleteOf course each microregion varied; but the progression was CWC-> BB-> Unetice
BB conquered a lot of CW territory, and this was only then re-captured by Unetice
Andrzejewski said...@Gaska One sad fact is that Dr. Reich appears to agree with you concerning the origins of BB Cultures.
ReplyDeleteWhy or for whom is sad?-I think that regarding the European Chalcolithic is the only thing we agree
In any case, Dr Reich may be very important in the United States, but in Europe his opinion is one of those that can or should be taken into account. Besides, he is not an archaeologist and obviously he has to trust people who know much better than him, the European Chalcolithic-The vast majority of European archaeologists think that dating in Portugal is sufficient to prove the origin of BB culture in the Tagus estuary. The whole BB package has also been found in Iberian Pre-BB deposits (tanged daggers, wristguards, V perforate buttons, cinnabar, pottery, stone arrowheads etc.). In Central-Europe, styles may vary or other objects/ideology will be incorporated, but that does not change the origin.
I believe that when BB culture arrived in Germany, that region was already plagued with L51/L151/P310/P311/P312. Everyone here seems to forget that Alt4 does not mean much due to its dating and because we have a case of R1b M343 (which could be L51) at a site of the BB culture, at least 100 years earlier (Kromsdorf)
The BBC did not take over the CWC territory, the first one was distributed where the second one was not, along the borders. There may have been boundary movements, but that's not uncommon.
ReplyDeleteThe Unetica culture looks like non-Indo-European even purely archeologically, it differs sharply from the previous and subsequent cultures, without having typological ancestors and descendants. A kind of local zigzag of history, without speculations.
@Leron said "I wonder if Steppe rich women were prized during those times. Perhaps they were considerably more fair skin than most Central European women, and rich Beaker men simply paid for them?
ReplyDeleteI think that it is a survival strategy of all prehistoric societies. That is, one way to avoid the evident problems of consanguinity was to exchange women. We must bear in mind that they were small groups or families that if they did not practice that strategy, they could disappear in a few generations. Surely they had inherited the knowledge of how harmful it is to reproduce among relatives. The exchange ceremonies should have been used to share knowledge, exotic products, technological advances, mines, ceramic techniques, etc.
The patterns and ceramic models are surprisingly similar, it is clear that women traveled, you can not copy such exact models in so many places at once.
@Leron:
ReplyDelete"I wonder if Steppe rich women were prized during those times. Perhaps they were considerably more fair skin than most Central European women,"
Steppe people had not been fair skinned. Steppe people had been pretty dark skinned. Its the neolithic farmers where the white skin of modern Europeans originates.
A different beauty fetish however was (at least in the past, I am not up to date anymore) thought tobe a steppe import: the skull shape people call "Nordid".
Oldest ever found location for that skull shape:
Mesolithic:Caucasus mountains.
Neolithic: Russian Steppe
Bronce Age: Corded Ware/Tarim Mumies
Iron Age: Hallstatt Celts
Only the Hallstatt Celtic one is considered the "proper" Nordid. But the others had been rated as the shapes that the Hallstatt one originates in. Funny thing however, that the first thing we thnk about today is Sweden, while the first proper apearance was near the Alps.
So, IF Steppe women had been prized, its definately not because they had been fair, but their skull shape could have been attractive.
Additional:
ReplyDeleteOf course the question is: Why is Corded Ware connected to a Proto-Nordid skull shape and Bell Beaker to a "Dinarid" one? Why the difference if both apeaances are new to Europe in the Late neolithic/Bronce age?
More about CWC & BB transition, e.g. Bavaria
ReplyDelete''Along with this phenomenon of Corded Ware graves being present in predominantly Bell Beaker cemeteries, and the Corded Ware rites and practices adjusting to the Bell Beake
norms, we observe a general decline in the number of Corded Ware finds in the areas in question, and possibly also a shift in the distribution of CordedWare material into the north Danubian Alb area.Thereafter, Corded Ware graves are very scarce in the catchment area of the Danube (Fig. 25); here, the laterBell Beaker tradition starts to be the decisive element in the succeeding Danubian Early Bronze Age(Möslein 2001)''
- V Heyd
So there are definitely shifts and 'takeovers'
Three I2 from the Unetice culture speak of their non-Indo-European origin. They are not associated with the CWC or the BBC.
ReplyDeleteThe BBC did not occupy large areas of CWC, it was distributed only along the borders. The Danube is a borderland where CWC has always been very few. So there has never been a change of culture, and this is a fact.
@Archi
ReplyDeleteLOL
You're making some wobbly assumptions there assuming that there's no R1a in Unetice.
Davidski said...
ReplyDelete" @Archi
LOL
You're making some wobbly assumptions there assuming that there's no R1a in Unetice."
I'm from the facts, I didn't make that assumption, I wrote "perhaps as a mixture of Indo-European and Renaissance non-Indo-European population." But you made the assumption that they are there.
But now I'm going to make such an assumption, because it is a fact that the mass of R1a from CWC is disappearing from the territory of Germany, and I assume that they were displaced by the Unetecians. Argue with the fact that the mass of R1a are disappearing from German territory. Indicate another time when this could have happened.
This culture looks like a non-Indo-European one, may be a mixture.
“
ReplyDeleteThree I2 from the Unetice culture speak of their non-Indo-European”
Case in point of Reductionist reasoning without empiricism.
In Unetice culture there was a sharp stratification based on female community, in this culture there were kings and bondservants. Exactly the same system was in the GAC and in other Neolithic Danube-Balkan cultures. The GAC had kings and bondservants.
ReplyDeleteGiven the I2 in both cultures and women in Lech (Straubing culture) from the Unetice culture for which "The best fitting models were obtained with the farmers of the Globular Amphora culture, the Middle Neolithic population of France and Chalcolithic Iberia, who all gave p-values over 0.05 for the Lech BBC, EBA and MBA populations when used as a source" (bests Lech_MBA Globular_Amphora=0.39 p=1.40E-01, Lech_MBA Germany_MES_MN=0.35 p=1.94E-01, Lech_EBA Globular_Amphora=0.41 p=6.56E-01, Lech_EBA France_MN=0.40 p=6.15E-01), it can be suggested that the Unetice culture is a GAC-origin (or Danubian?) population with strong BBC influence.
Archie
ReplyDelete“An example of the inability neither to understand texts, ”
Please inform us which ‘texts’ exist from CWC, BB & Unetice
@Archi,
ReplyDeleteUnetice is identical to Rhine Beaker and Britain Beaker. It is also therefore very similar to Corded Ware. Unetice was 56% Kurgan. So you're wrong when you say they had a special link to Globular Amphora or Danube farmers. They had slightly less farmer ancestry than average Bell Beaker.
@ Sam
ReplyDelete“Unetice is identical to Rhine Beaker and Britain Beaker. “
In reality however; it represents a new wave from eastern CWC + Carpathian groups; which project on a PCA similarly to Rhenish BB
We have no clue what languages they spoke; but Archie’s usual black-n-White categorical claims are again likely to be incorrect
@Samuel Andrews
ReplyDeleteAnd I2 is the BBC haplogroup!))) Keep in you mind that 500 years passed between the GAC and the advent of Unetice, at that time they were hiding somewhere and, accordingly, mixed up.
I said this population was strongly influenced by the BBC! If they occupied the territory of the CWC, then respectively, they got the women of the CWC.
@Mammoth_Hunter Your knowledge is no good. As always, you're wrong about everything.
@ Archi
ReplyDelete''And I2 is the BBC haplogroup!))) Keep in you mind that 500 years passed between the GAC and the advent of Unetice, at that time they were hiding somewhere and, accordingly, mixed up''
Nope. Different kind of I2 lineages. GAC is I2a2a1b2, Unetice is I2c
Archie, do you ever bother checking facts or is your aim in life to consistently pontificate hot air ?
@Mammoth_Hunter
ReplyDelete"Unetice is I2c"
Unetice has I2a2b. You never check the facts and write all the mistakes, you just shake the air.
West GAC can have I2a2b, different from East.
That's why I wrote that there might be Danubians there. But you ignored it on purpose, as always. GAC is there because we don't have any information about other cultures and we have to use what we have.
Incorrect
ReplyDeleteI2a2b is different to GAC I2a2a1b2
So far, no GAC lineages have surfaced in Unetice outside your imagination
Wrong screamer is in the puddle again, as usual.
ReplyDeleteHahaha
ReplyDelete@Fanty @Leron:
ReplyDelete"I wonder if Steppe rich women were prized during those times. Perhaps they were considerably more fair skin than most Central European women,"
Steppe people had not been fair skinned. Steppe people had been pretty dark skinned. Its the neolithic farmers where the white skin of modern Europeans originates.
A different beauty fetish however was (at least in the past, I am not up to date anymore) thought tobe a steppe import: the skull shape people call "Nordid".
Oldest ever found location for that skull shape:
Mesolithic:Caucasus mountains.
Neolithic: Russian Steppe
Bronce Age: Corded Ware/Tarim Mumies
Iron Age: Hallstatt Celts
Only the Hallstatt Celtic one is considered the "proper" Nordid."
1. No physical anthropology please!
2. The "Yamnaya being fairly dark" fairy tale is nothing more than a fairy tale: the frequency of alleles for blondism/red hair, light pigmentation and green/blue eyes is on average then same as with Neolithic farmers or forager WHG.
3. If, as you are suggesting, the "Nordid" head shape originated in Mesolithic Caucasus then it's clearly a CHG contribution to the Yamnaya Steppe Indo-Europeans. To wit: Nordic people have 40%-50% Yamnaya so the facts speak for themselves.
Anyone who thinks Steppe women were preferred is not using logic. The constant from CWC->BBC->MBA is increasing Farmer ancestry and decreasing Yamnaya related ancestry. This is constant from Iberia to the Steppe. Conversely you have Myceneans Greeks with roughly 10% Steppe 1000 years after the CWC genesis, and Hittites with none. This paints a picture of women from a more advanced Balkan farmer society being coveted as prized status symbols amongst the elite of the steppe migrants. In the case of the Bell Beaker culture this relationship likely was the source of their cultural divergence from CWC.
ReplyDelete@bellbeakerblogger
ReplyDeleteI'm kind of shooting from the hip without the paper, but..
The results beautifully explain the Central European begleitkeramik phenomenon since it looks like women from the Eastern Beaker Domain are moving into Beaker enclaves in Central Europe.
Yes, that's in part what's happening. Plus there's a migration of early Beakers from the north into the Lech Valley and beyond.
But the paper doesn't really cover any of this. Your blog post from two years ago is way more informative in regards to this phenomenon than the paper.
https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/bekasmegyer-begleitkeramik-beakers.html
@Fanty
ReplyDelete"Steppe people had not been fair skinned. Steppe people had been pretty dark skinned. Its the neolithic farmers where the white skin of modern Europeans originates"
Neolithic farmers were never white-skinned, in reality, they were even darker than their descendants, southern Europeans. Compare early Europoid Tarim mummies and Cretan murals
http://maritimehistorypodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/im_12241_screen.jpg?x27115
http://maritimehistorypodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Ship_procession_fresco_part_4_Akrotiri_Greece.jpg?x27115
https://yeahwrite.me/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Ship_procession_fresco_part_1_Akrotiri_Greece.jpg
Kinda makes me think that there were several hotspots where different peoples came together and all were influenced by one specific people all along the Corded Ware Border....kinda like the German Limes during the Roman Empire where people were only allowed to cross at certain points...?
ReplyDeleteIf you want to see what EEF looked like visit nowadays Sardinia and you will see that Sardinians are shorter and more dark-skinned than the average Italian or the average Spaniard
ReplyDeleteHow much is really known about the complexion of the CW people? Even more so if considering how variable HG populations and GAC were.
ReplyDeleteHow many "dark" skinned CW samples are there? Afaik they were lighter skinned than BB.
Also great to see that finally a Balkan-Carparthian connection being taken serious for the emergence of the BBC.
The genetic side will most likely come up with more surprises. Its intriguing that in Central Europe, after the BB networks collapse the remaining BB traditions, culturally and physically, being largely centered in mountainous areas.
Probably they wete a mountain people from the start, got the mission and support fRom Balkan rulers to save the borders and search for resources beyond their realms reach.
Archiv is not completely off with Unetice, probably some Balkan rulers established something more directly in the North with these protostates.
But lets wait for more results to come in.
Unetice is like a foreign cultural body in a way, Tumulus and the following cultures are key.
I always proposed the increase of CW ancestry is from the women primarily. Especially in Germany that was likely going after the physical characteristics.
The rather "pure" Beaker centres from which the typical specimen came in after the initial mixture might have always been at higher altitudes in tge border regions to CW in particular.
Adlerberg culture was a typical survivor, while in the North classic specimen largely disappeared with the end of the networks.
Which is even more likely if assuming the head shape is genetically subdominant.
That it was so omnipresent in the BB elite-commoners (much less in poor males!) even after mixture with people of different (dominant!) phenotype can only be explained by marriage networks and supply with "elite" and "rather pure" partners.
Where those inbred networks collapsed and even more mixture followed, the classic cranial shape became a small minority almost instantly, even if BB survived genetically.
If they search in the wrong places, they will never find the mountaineers close to the Balkans which started the whole enterprise of the warlike Copper prospection and resource requisitioning, with the establishment of defensable and suppliable outposts, which were in the next step upgraded to centers in wider networks.
They could have been close relatives of the CW and Yamnaya in the Carparthian area from the start, but with significant impulses from the Balkans.
My scenario for the moment. Any factual errors? Anything of it impossible or highly unlikely?
@zardos
ReplyDeleteThe BBC was a splinter group within the CWC. This will probably be officially confirmed with ancient DNA soon, when it's shown that R1b-P312 is of CWC origin.
@David: Even if thats correct, its non trivial of which region and subgroup they were a splinter of at which time.
ReplyDeleteBecause they were not the average CW bunch for sure and must have left their relatives behind at some point, doing their own thing under the influence of new masters.
They didnt grew out of CW in "a natural way". That's impossible from the cultural and physical perspective.
They need time on their own (isolation from other CW) and big foreign impulses (at least culturally, if not genetically) to become the typical Beakers which appear everywhere in the West.
It doesnt make snap and such a long list of differences appears, that needs tine and foreign influences.
@Urki “
ReplyDeleteIf you want to see what EEF looked like visit nowadays Sardinia and you will see that Sardinians are shorter and more dark-skinned than the average Italian or the average Spaniard”
Except that modern Sardinians are 60% EEF, 20% CHG/Levantine, 10% WHG and 10% Yamnaya. That’s far from being pure 60% EEF.
@ Andrzejewski
DeleteHow much EEF does Baltic/Finnish people have ? Baltic/Finnish people are arguably the Lightest skinned, haired and Eyed people in Europe....
@Davidski @zardos
ReplyDelete“The BBC was a splinter group within the CWC. This will probably be officially confirmed with ancient DNA soon, when it's shown that R1b-P312 is of CWC origin.”
OK. But which group is the most likely ancestral to Illyrians, Thracians and Phygians - CWC, BBC or perhaps Yamnaya Bulgaria/Hungary? Can we be assured that Mycenaean Greek evolved from a CWC language?
@Draft Drozen
ReplyDelete@Fanty
"Steppe people had not been fair skinned. Steppe people had been pretty dark skinned. Its the neolithic farmers where the white skin of modern Europeans originates"
And:
“Neolithic farmers were never white-skinned, in reality, they were even darker than their descendants, southern Europeans. Compare early Europoid Tarim mummies and Cretan murals”
Neolithic Farmers had a 30% chance of the derived allele for light skin pigmentation. Some EEF groups were darker while others were relatively lighter. I suppose it has something to do with natural selection, genetic drift, adaptation and admixture with various forager WHG populations. We know that some forager tribes were light skinned e.g. Baltic HG, SHG, Erteboelle, therefore it’s probable that they wielded a significant impact on GAC, TRB etc. However, most WHG were darker skinned. I suspect that in all 3 groups - WHG, EEF and Steppe groups - there were different shades of skin, eyes and hair colors.
I just don’t know where people got the idea that Steppe populations like Yamnaya were “dark skinned”.
PS: FYI, Tarim Basin Mummies were 30% EEF.
@Andrzejewski
ReplyDelete"But which group is the most likely ancestral to Illyrians, Thracians and Phygians - CWC, BBC or perhaps Yamnaya Bulgaria/Hungary? Can we be assured that Mycenaean Greek evolved from a CWC language?"
The Illyrians come from that mid-Danube group of BBC and CWC mixtures.
The Thracians are not related to them at all, they come from the East, most likely from the Srubnaya culture and the Noua culture.
The Phrygians are related to the Greeks and together they come from the KMK, which in turn dates back to post-CWC cultures that spread to the Catacomb substrate.
So as here all offer their options, then will offer and its. I proceed from the fact that this should be the point of convergence of the Sredniy Stog II (1 stage of Yamnay) culture, Trypillian culture, as well as Neolithic tribes culture pit-comb ceramics, the remnants of the Dnieper-Donetsk culture and Repin culture. All this once met exclusively in one place, in the area of the modern North, North-East of Ukraine, South and South-East of Belarus, the Western regions of Russia. It can be Called monuments of Sofia and Troyan type of late Trypillian culture. It happened exactly at the same time when there was a Usatov culture in the South of the Tripoli area. Here the culture of cord ceramics and battle axes was born and from here through the Ukrainian Volyn they went to Lesser Poland. And what was further written in this book:S. Kadrow.
ReplyDeleteSettlements and Subsistence Strategies of the Corded Ware Culture at the Beginning of the 3 rd millennium BC in Southeastern Poland and Western Ukraine.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Vladimir
ReplyDelete"It can be Called monuments of Sofia and Troyan type of late Trypillian culture."
What's the Sofia culture got to do with it? This culture cremated and did not use mounds at all. And in general, many people do not consider it to be Tripolye.
The Tripolye culture did not play any role in the spread of Indo-Europeans at all, except that it disappeared.
"the Sredniy Stog II (1 stage of Yamnay)"
palm
natsunoame said...
ReplyDelete"they were not Greek."
???
Where did I write that they were Greeks?
"The Phrygians are related to the Greeks"
related = kindred here
@Fanty
ReplyDeleteDiscussing typologies from physical anthropology is forbidden on this blog. But I would add that what you wrote isn't even quite correct. Because it's not easy to tell apart Mediterranean skulls from Nordic ones, some authors have considered EEF skulls as proto-Nordic too. And then there were multivariate clustering studies seemingly proving that the central European Corded Ware skulls are part of "Old Europe" together with the EEF, while the steppe was a completely different cluster… And then Nordic is a broad, vague term as well. Some considered only the delicate, narrow faced shape Nordic and the robust, bigger faced ones something else. Others even consider the low faced Cromagnoid variant Nordic. This really leads us nowhere. And BTW. I know Coon called the delicate, high vaulted, small nosed type found in Sweden "Hallstatt Nordic". But actual average measurements of Hallstatt Celts show a different picture. They had rather low shaped, broad faces. From what I read, the Western Hallstatt culture has an average upper facial index of 50.3 and the Eastern Hallstatt culture has 51.6. That's rather low and has nothing to do with what we observe in Sweden.
@Archie
ReplyDeletere: Unetice. yDNA isn't everything. We can make useful analyses focusing on autosomal DNA, and there are lots of Unetice samples in the Global25 sheet. I'll soon show you what I mean. Judging from yDNA and following your logic North Germanic Scandinavians are not IE, because their predominant haplogroup is I1.
re: Tumulus. Well maybe you're right about the burial customs of Lech_MBA, I don't have access to the paper. Yet, material culture matters also, and it's MBA style, as you acknowledge. In any case the autosomal structure of Lech_MBA differs in an interesting way from the Lech_EBA, I'll soon show you.
Simon_W said...
ReplyDelete" Discussing typologies from physical anthropology is forbidden on this blog."
Arguments about anthropology are meaningless - because Western Europe has a different system of craniological measurements than Eastern Europe, these data are incomparable.
Physical Anthropology in Western Europe practically died in the middle of the 20th century (de facto banned), where all research has long been hopelessly outdated.
Simon_W said...
ReplyDelete"re: Unetice. yDNA isn't everything."
The Y-DNA is important because it shows the distant origins of the people, not just who was mixed up with whom. You see, they are mixed, the autosomal picture is aligned with the constant marriages, but the homogeneous markers remain. In Unetice there is simply I2 which can be the same that in GAC. That's why I'm writing that this culture needs more researches, its origin is not clear now - as I wrote it may be either from the GAC and/or Danubian Baden-Boleraz, its relationship with the BBC and CWC is not clear now either, were they substrate, superstrate, extrastrate?
"re: Tumulus. ... In any case the autosomal structure of Lech_MBA differs in an interesting way from the Lech_EBA, I'll soon show you."
I can see that, but it doesn't mean that the Tumulus culture was anything like epi-Straubinger Lech_MBA.
@Archie. In the Scandinavian battle axe culture burials in addition to a well-known rite of cremation of the deceased, although this rite here is quite rare. In Sweden it is known in
ReplyDeleteBäckaskog (skåne), Kvilla (småland), Julsäter and Täby (Södermanland ), two cremation cases reported in southern Norway ( A. M. Larsson, 2009, p. 287)
For cultures of cultural and historical community of battle axes and cord ceramics, the rite of cremation though meets not especially often, however does not go beyond traditions of this community.For example, in Fatianov culture cremation is noted in Istrinsky, Oshurkovsky and, probably, Turginovsky burial grounds; quite often it is observed on Dnepro-desninsky monuments ( D. A. Krainov, 1972, p. 189), the rite of cremation is known in Balanovsky version of fatianovsky culture, etc.
Sofiyevsky burial ground is located on a sand dune, burials are located at a depth of about 0.5 m from the surface. Small things were among ashes, large (stone axes) lay near or from above. Bce 23 buturovic burial inventory. The most frequent finds - knives (II cases), arrows (8 SL.), retouchers (5 SL.). Stone axes were found in 7 burials. (Source: AVILOVA LYUDMILA IVANOVNA. FUNERAL RITE OF AGRICULTURAL CULTURES OF THE ENEOLITHIC OF SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE. The dissertation on competition of a scientific degree of candidate of historical Sciences. Moscow-1984. 1984).
The origin of the pit community of the researchers associated with Eneolithic Khvalynskiy tribes-seredniy stiğ culture (Archaeology. Textbook. Ed. V. L. Yanina. Moscow state University Publishing house, 2006. Pp. 186-190.)
Some models I obtained with the Global25/nMonte method (using scaled data, as always):
ReplyDeleteTo start, the Corded Ware from Germany has very high Steppe and low WHG in comparison:
[1] "distance%=3.4077"
Corded_Ware_DEU
Yamnaya_Samara,76.1
Barcin_N,16.7
WHG,7.2
The Bell Beaker from the Rhine-Main have somewhat lower Steppe, but it's still very high:
[1] "distance%=2.8065"
Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
Yamnaya_Samara,61.2
Barcin_N,24.9
WHG,11.8
Steppe is lower in the Middle-Elbe-Saale area:
[1] "distance%=3.093"
Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
Yamnaya_Samara,48.1
Barcin_N,36
WHG,15.9
Then follows Bell Beaker Bavaria with slightly lower steppe:
[1] "distance%=2.41"
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
Yamnaya_Samara,46.3
Barcin_N,40.4
WHG,13.3
And Lech Bell Beaker, with again reduced Steppe:
[1] "distance%=3.588"
DEU_Lech_BBC
Barcin_N,45
Yamnaya_Samara,42.6
WHG,12.4
But compared to modern Europeans this is still a fair amount of steppe ancestry.
Now, Lech_EBA is very similar on average to Lech Bell Beaker:
[1] "distance%=2.7635"
DEU_Lech_EBA
Yamnaya_Samara,43.3
Barcin_N,43.3
WHG,13.4
This is what I've expected, considering the cultural continuity in the region. I'm just surprised they very still that heterogenous in the EBA as they were in the Bell Beaker era. If they used the time to admix, then they should have become more homogenous by the EBA, unless there was a similar amount of migration in the EBA keeping the heterogenity up.
But then, with the MBA, comes a striking drop in Steppe ancestry:
[1] "distance%=3.5675"
DEU_Lech_MBA
Barcin_N,57.9
Yamnaya_Samara,29.8
WHG,12.3
But the amount of WHG stayed about the same. How do we explain this sudden reduction of steppe ancestry in the MBA when Lech EBA used to resemble Lech BBC so closely?
I think it might be admixture from Bronze Age Hungary:
[1] "distance%=2.0484"
HUN_BA
Barcin_N,69.3
Yamnaya_Samara,19.9
WHG,10.6
Indeed old archeological theories suggested that there was a migration of a Tumulus folk up the Danube.
And, @Archi, re: Unetice
[1] "distance%=2.8271"
DEU_Unetice_EBA
Yamnaya_Samara,55
Barcin_N,30.1
WHG,14.9
[1] "distance%=3.286"
CZE_Unetice_EBA
Yamnaya_Samara,52.2
Barcin_N,32.5
WHG,15.3
They had a lot of steppe ancestry, not quite as much as the Corded Ware, but more than most Bell Beaker groups.
@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteCremation in the CWC sporadically occurs in many places, such as the Czech Republic. But this has nothing to do with the Sofievskaya culture. The burial rite of CWC has nothing to do with the Sofievskaya culture, and linking these two cultures is ridiculous. Steppe battle axes were a sign of steppe infiltration or trade, but the Sofievskaya culture had no battle axes.
Opinions about the origin of the Yamnaya culture pile-ups, but these are only ancient opinions and are not really interesting.
You wrote that theSredniy Stog II is the Yamnaya culture.
Re: the reduced Steppe in Lech_MBA with stable WHG. I actually see a pattern there. Hallstatt_Bylany DA111 also has reduced steppe and even increased WHG. He's not quite unlike Lech_MBA:
ReplyDelete[1] "distance%=5.2732"
CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111
Barcin_N,48.7
Yamnaya_Samara,33.6
WHG,17.7
So while the Czech Unetice still had lots of Steppe, by the time of the Hallstatt culture it's significantly reduced. And the WHG stayed about the same, or is even slightly higher.
It looks like the Tumulus and Urnfield periods were responsible for this change.
@Simon_W
ReplyDeleteDo you understand that autosomal composition changes with marriages?
And, they wrote an interesting thing, that Straubingers married high-status women associated with the Unetice culture, but they indicated that the GAC is one of the most likely components of this admixture.
Now let's take a look at Italy:
ReplyDeleteSome modern North Italian samples:
1] "distance%=3.1503"
Italian_Lombardy
Barcin_N,60.7
Yamnaya_Samara,33.6
WHG,5.2
Natufian,0.5
[1] "distance%=3.473"
Italian_Liguria
Barcin_N,57.4
Yamnaya_Samara,34.9
WHG,5.1
Natufian,1.1
Morocco_Iberomaurusian,1.1
Yoruba,0.4
They have strikingly low WHG, in comparison to their Steppe ancestry.
CL36 from early Medieval Collegno is even more extreme in this respect:
[1] "distance%=4.1223"
ITA_Collegno_MA:CL36
Barcin_N,57.1
Yamnaya_Samara,34.6
WHG,3.5
Natufian,3.1
Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren,1.6
Yoruba,0.1
I can't see how these people could have got their steppe from Bronze Age cultures of central Europe, considering their higher WHG/Steppe ratio.
Bell Beakers from Northern Italy aren't the solution either:
[1] "distance%=3.2007"
Bell_Beaker_ITA
Barcin_N,71.6
Yamnaya_Samara,15.8
WHG,12.6
Steppe too low, WHG too high.
However, the very late Bronze Age or early Iron Age individual from Dalmatia is similar to North Italians, with a similarly high Steppe/WHG ratio:
[1] "distance%=3.9081"
HRV_IA
Barcin_N,61.5
Yamnaya_Samara,34.8
WHG,3.7
So I'm guessing the Protovillanovans may have introduced this mixture to Italy from somewhere around the Northern Adriatic.
Hence it might tentatively be argued that Celtic and Italic had their roots in Hungary and Slovenia/Croatia, compatible with the view that they split from the IE mainstream early on and that they come from Hungarian Yamnaya rather than from Corded Ware. If only the yDNA didn't link them with R1b-U152 which comes from central European Beakers...
@Archi
ReplyDelete"Do you understand that autosomal composition changes with marriages?"
LOL.
@ Simon W
ReplyDeleteTumulus culture was supposed to advance from west to East. Could explain the composition you’re pointing out
"And, they wrote an interesting thing, that Straubingers married high-status women associated with the Unetice culture, but they indicated that the GAC is one of the most likely components of this admixture. "
ReplyDeleteRight, this would explain how they kept the heterogenity up during the EBA. But it doesn't explain the drop in steppe ancestry in the MBA. After all mixing was done, the average should be the same. Unless new migrants came in.
GAC ancestry may perhaps be one of the components of Unetice, but GAC is a MN Farmer culture with very low Steppe:
[1] "distance%=3.925"
POL_Globular_Amphora
Barcin_N,73.6
WHG,25.1
Yamnaya_Samara,1.3
@Simon_W If you ignore the Y-DNA, then it is easy to make the mistake such as that the CWC is Yamnians.
ReplyDelete@Mammoth Hunter
ReplyDeleteThere were definitely different theories about the origin and spread of the Tumulus culture. One prominent theory that I heard about when attending to an introduction lecture on the Bronze Age of central Europe was the said Danubian migration. But back then the most popular theory was immobilistic, i.e. that there was no migration and that it had local origins.
@Archi
ReplyDeleteSure yDNA isn't completely irrelevant, but like I said it's not the only thing we can make analyses with. And I'd never say that the Corded Ware is Yamnaya, even archeologically it's not the case. In my models I just use Yamnaya as a proxy for steppe admixture in general.
@Simon_W
ReplyDeleteYou see, for more than 500 years of mixing with the CWC and BBC, the descendants of the GAC and Danubian Baden-Boleraz had to change autosomously.
R1a's departure from the Oder (Unetice) - Straubing - Muresh triangle agrees well with the fact that archaeology records the appearance of things related to these cultures in the KMK and the Urals, actually, the creation of the cultures of Babino (KMK) and Sintashta-Petrovka.
Anthropologically, the Babinians are indistinguishable from the Corded Fatyanovians.
Everything looks as if Corded R1a leave Germany, and their place is taken by Unetice I2. R1a disappear from Germany, it's just a fact.
If everything is clear with Straubing culture, it is not Indo-European, then Unetice culture may be mixed, where non-Indo-European influence was strong.
@ Simon W
ReplyDelete''I heard about when attending to an introduction lecture on the Bronze Age of central Europe was the said Danubian migration. But back then the most popular theory was immobilistic, i.e. that there was no migration and that it had local origins.''
For what its worth, Wikipedia suggested Tumulus culture expanded east into the Carpathians, whilst the Urnfield culture expanded back west from the Carpathians.
So these kind of autosomal shifts make sense given the shifting cultural horizons (regarldess of the exact loci of origin of said groups).
@ Zardos
ReplyDelete''Archiv is not completely off with Unetice, probably some Balkan rulers established something more directly in the North with these protostates.
But lets wait for more results to come in.
Unetice is like a foreign cultural body in a way, Tumulus and the following cultures are key.''
Archie doesn't really know what he's talking about because hes an arm -chair theoretician, based on his outdated pseudo-science of PIEs coming from the Volga -Urals.
His claim is that Unetice lineages derives from GAC, which is demonstrably wrong. It's not his idea that Unetice has links to the Carpathians.
You're new fixation on Tumulus culture is hardly worth the mount of highlighting you're dedicating
@Archi: It might be true that Unetice got a new upper class coming from f.e. the South East, but the predominant ancestry was actually more CW-like again than in the BB. We don't have enough samples to be sure about their paternal composition and they seemed to be more heterogenous in this respect than the preceding groups, ready to integrate different clans. Unetice is one of these cultural phenomenons which might not even be one ethnic unity, but rather different groups, including BB remains, around centers. Like you said yourself, closer to kingdoms, more bondslaves etc.
ReplyDeleteBut can't we say for sure who was on top with the few samples we have right now?
@Simon@all: If you analysis being confirmed by other posters, your explanation largely seems to make sense imho.
Another aspect to consider though is that the basic pre-steppe populations were Neolithic with constantly increasing WHG ancestry, WHG paternal lines in most regions. The BB are interesting as they breed with foreigners on the one hand, but are fairly inbred and keep up long distance marriage networks of "their kind", especially in the elite, as well.
So I see no reason why, like with the Bavarians in the Medieval time, the pre-BB, pre-steppe people couldn't have survived around the BB bases in fairly large numbers even and that after the collapse of the BB networks there was a "resurgence" in the record.
But your solution of a Pannonian-Balkan influx bringing Italo-Celtic ethnicities is an interesting idea.
@Mammoth: Rather than platitudes and ad hominem point to factual errors. I'm sure I made some, but that doesn't mean I can't be right about an important issue. The empirical data of different disciplines has to be aligned. Cultural and physical changes of great significance don't come up out of thin air, they always have an important background.
But this will be seen soon enough if the progress in the field of aDNA goes on like that, with more samples and fine scale analysis of genetic differences.
Its like the first analysis of archaeological layers or C14 dates. Still crude and much too limited sample sizes for sufficient comparisons and calibration.
As long as their are such big gaps around, a lot is guesswork and speculation. Don't tell me you are doing so much better in this business and making no mistakes. Future will tell.
Reich himself wrote that new methods might be needed to figure out the details after the first panmixture.
ReplyDeleteI think he might be very right and its not just about data points. Basal Eurasian and ANE made it easier than it could have been, like a layer of thick black ashes and different material cultures before and after.
But with CW, BB, Unetice, Tumulus etc we rather deal with layers which are much less of a clear cut thing and it seems to get even Messer the closer we get to historical times.
Without the paternal lineages it would be even harder and even those get more mixed up phase by phase.
Just wonder about the importance of more elaborated methods to analyse the future data. Or is whats there sufficient to get out most of it.
E.g. it should be possible to distinguish pre-BB, BB, Celtic, Roman, Levantine and Germanic ancestry in Britain with some certainty in the Near future with more samples from the continent. But are the methods powerful enough?
As for the Tumulus culture: In this phase the classic IE cultural traits re-appeared and it was probably the last chance for a really big Eastern-steppe influence on the cultural cradle of most IE cultures before historical times. Urnfield and Hallstatt seem to have grown out of it.
ReplyDeleteBB -> Unetice -> Tumulus seems to be much more of a fundamental break in the transition. Add to that possible Eastern influences and the appearance of chariots.
But ok, aDNA might prove different possible scenarios. E.g. the Eastern influences and chariots might have taken different paths to the West. Like through Pannonia.
Archie These are battle axes. Stone axes-hammers posetivshego stage is represented by materials trojanowski and Sophia types of monuments. Length — 7 - 12, see these samples of relatively wide clinophobia blade, low butt, straight profile. The hole is drilled in the upper, widest part. From the blade to the hole, and sometimes to the butt of the axe runs a more or less pronounced rib. These stone products imitate metal samples of weapons. This type of axe-hammers are characteristic monuments of St. Sophia, the analogues found in the materials of the Central European culture of funnel-shaped dishes. Besides, stone massive axes-klevtsy, 15 cm long, and also hammers rounded in section, 10 cm long originate from sofiyevsky burial grounds.
ReplyDeleteArchie Settlement Mikhailovka reference monument Ymnaiy culture. The lower layer consists of monuments of culture Sredniy Stog II, the middle layer of monuments of Yamnaiy culture proper, the upper layer of monuments of catacomb culture. There were no signs of collisions. Apparently it was the same population. There is a smooth transition from one cultural layer to another
ReplyDeleteThe Tumulus culture is just one group which emerged on the margins of the Unetice culture, after the latter collapsed. In this regard, it's similar to the Nordic Bronze Age. If you think its the main vector for northwest Indo-European, I see no issue with that, but I'm not sure why you say '' Tumulus and the following cultures are key.', especially given that the Tumulus barrow is reminiscent of Unetice barrows, not Yamnaya. Depending on where samples come from, they'd be the usual suspects of R1b, R1a, I2a
ReplyDeleteArchie Z93 has never been to Germany, there is no evidence of this. Z93 was the R1A tribe closest to the classical Yamnaiya culture. Apparently this is the part of R1a, which was adjacent to Z2103 in the Middle Volga and Middle don
ReplyDelete@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteNope.
Z93 migrated to the Volga region from the North Pontic steppe around 2,500 BCE. Wait and see.
@Vladimir said.
ReplyDeleteR1b-Z2103+ mutation is older than R1a-Z93+mutation.
R1b-Z2103>Z2106-Z2109+ had a different skill set. They built wheeled wagons, not only earlier, but with 4 wheels and used them in burial rites.
Davidski/ I'm saying the same thing. Where is the North Pontic steppe? I call it middle Don. It is here that they bordered the Z2103 since the time of the Dnieper-Donetsk culture. And that's why They adopted the z2103 steppe lifestyle. But Z283 and L664 apparently somewhere to the North bordered the L51.
ReplyDeleteYou can't put Z283 and L664 too far north, because then there's no way to explain these very Yamnaya-like Corded Ware samples from Poland, one of which belongs to R1a...
ReplyDeletehttps://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2019.1528
@a. That's what I'm talking about. Z93 adopted z2103 skills and lifestyle
ReplyDelete@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteNope.
You don't understand yet, because you don't know what's coming from the far western steppe.
Davidski. I the with you again agree. That's what Archie and I argue about. I see it roughly speaking in the area of Kiev. In that area the influence of Ymnaiy culture was but not complete. There was also the influence of Tripoli culture, as well as the culture of pit-comb ceramics. There is certainly confusion with the names of cultures in the second half of the 4th Millennium BC and the turn of the 3rd Millennium. Now it is difficult to prove, but there appears a battle axe in the Sophia monuments, there also appears corded ceramics in the later layers of the Sredniy Stog II culture. And what do you think about the version of the Russian historian Klein, that R1a penetrated into Europe gradually from the stage of funnel cups through the North of Tripoli culture? After all, the type of economy Funnel Beaker culture is similar to the steppe, they were engaged in large livestock?
ReplyDelete"far western steppe" This Is The Dnieper River? Dniester? The Danube? More or less exactly to the Z93 can be attributed to the Abashevo culture. When talking about Babinski culture,it originated on the basis of the Kharkov-Voronezh variant of the catacomb culture (that is). In any case, this is the intersection of the steppe and the hunters that I'm talking about.
ReplyDelete@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteAnd what do you think about the version of the Russian historian Klein, that R1a penetrated into Europe gradually from the stage of funnel cups through the North of Tripoli culture?
It's nonsense.
R1a was native to the East Baltic, but R1a-M417 moved very rapidly from the steppe to the west starting around 3,300 BCE, and the Baltic R1a clades basically went extinct.
This is well documented. See here...
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)30424-5
@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteMore or less exactly to the Z93 can be attributed to the Abashevo culture.
Nope. Not originally.
And the expansion of Z93 has nothing to do with Yamnaya influence. You'll see.
Davidski. It would be interesting to know. Now there is a complete confusion about the origin of the Abashev culture. Someone deduces it from the Balanov culture, someone from the middle Dnieper culture, someone from the local Neolithic, someone directly from Sredniy Stog
ReplyDeleteWait for more samples from Unetice. I suspect major shifts from BB to Unetice to Tumulus culture in yDNA and little of comparable magnitude afterwards.
ReplyDeleteThe Eastern influences will have allowed new people and dominant lineages to emerge.
And we still don’t know enough about the emergence of all three cultures. The elite vs commoners in Unetices centers might prove to be very interesting.
These elite had to flee at the end or got submerged. Something similar happened in Hallstatt.
You see the rise and Fall of elites and we don’t know whether they were one or different people originally.
I don't have the time today to write a lot, but Hungary_LBA, which is just I1504, is from a group belonging to the Urnfield culture, and he's very similar to Hallstatt Bylany DA111 in ancestry proportions:
ReplyDelete[1] "distance%=4.4772"
HUN_LBA
Barcin_N,47
Yamnaya_Samara,33.3
WHG,19.7
That's hardly a coincidence, but probably reflects some similarity across the wider Urnfield area.
Hungary LBA I1504 is from the Kyjatice culture, which is a southeastern Urnfield group in eastern Hungary.
@SimonW: But then, with the MBA, comes a striking drop in Steppe ancestry:
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this is that when you're dealing with G25 population averages, you're dealing with:
a) a quite reduced sample set from what is in the paper (and the MBA set is already quite small there), because only some meet G25 quality standards
Note that only 1 sample out of 6 Lech_MBA actually makes it onto Global_25, so you're not describing that the Lech_MBA set from the paper drops in steppe ancestry, only that one Lech_MBA sample has lower steppe related ancestry.
b) samples have to be lumped into groups with a fairly arbitrary temporal juncture that is not mediated by a cultural barrier, etc.
Ref, my plotting of the paper's f4 stats: https://imgur.com/a/DiUomEm
There is no "jump" in Barcin_N related ancestry at the time of the MBA samples, and the BarcinN f4 stat is continuous.
In the MBA set there is no striking drop towards Anatolia in the f4 stat, but rather the MBA represents the same level and variance as in the latest EBA (which is not very different to the early EBA).
Note that the single sample from Lech_MBA that makes it on to G25, OTTM_151ind2, is the lowest steppe sample in the MBA series - she isn't even close to representing their average!
I'm not trying to knock you for doing your analysis (it is always worthwhile for people to have a look at change over time using different tools).
But just to note that you are going to get into a situation of perilously low underlying sample sizes and artificial "splits" just by looking at the G25 averages, when there is richer data available from the direct stats.
(And this is by no means a problem unique to us in the amateur crowd - I would charge Olalde's paper on Iberia, for ex', to some extent with doing the same thing in its chronological series.).
When we are looking at population average levels of ancestry in diverse populations, we need to leverage all the samples we have, and to be clear about the statistical variance and n of our averages, and that we're looking at equal sample sizes for comparison. (Otherwise we will naturally get misleading conclusions like "There is a sudden drop of steppe ancestry" when in actuality this is not what is demonstrated by the sample set of the paper, and is based on a single sample, which has the lowest steppe ancestry in their set.)
@ Zardos
ReplyDelete“You see the rise and Fall of elites and we don’t know whether they were one or different people originally”
Rather self evident
But there’ll be nothing hyper-eastern about TC; as shown by Simon already . Quite the contrary
“Something similar happened in Hallstatt.”
Yes that’s again clear from archaeology. And it’ll explain how R1b-P312 finally became “the Celtic marker”; why Celtic has Vasconic substratum etc
@ SimonW
“Hungary LBA I1504 is from the Kyjatice culture”
I believe he was J2a1, just by-the-by
I don’t expect the genetic Eastern influences on TC to be big, but important for the fall of the Unetice elite and the rise of new dominant lineages in a more classic IE manner.
ReplyDeleteUnetice was a protostate interlude, probably based on South Eastern influences, especially in the elite.
Btw, how many samples are there from the important Carparthian region to compare with? Not Pannonia, the Carparthians and adjacent Eastern areas of what is now Romania?
Davidski "R1a was native to the East Baltic". However, in Baltic MN CC 20% steppe and 10% North of Ukraine. And in Baltic LN already 50% steppe. It is obvious that they R1a came to the Baltic from the North of Ukraine in the 4th Millennium BC, already having a steppe pedigree
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02825-9#Fig2
Zardos
ReplyDeleteI have to say; you’re a funny guy
Your “conquering elites” model didn’t work out. Now you’re advancing a revolution of the proletariates
@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteThere was no steppe ancestry in the East Baltic before the Corded Ware culture arrived there. The paper you linked to explains this clearly, so I suspect that you're not understanding some of the results from the paper.
Those Baltic LN samples from the paper that are almost 100% steppe are dated to around 2,800 BCE, and they're associated with the Corded Ware culture. I label them Corded_Ware_Baltic_early in my analyses on this blog. See here...
Early Baltic Corded Ware form a genetic clade with Yamnaya, but...
Both is true, but while the Hallstatt elite was clearly IE as far as I can tell, at least the cultural character of Unetice's centers looks less so. That doesnt mean it cant be, but lets see.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for conquest from chariot driving Eastern elites at the end of Unetice, during TC, we'll see.
I just dont expect a huge turnover from the East autosomally, and especially the fringes of Unetice's sphere of influence seem to have been just fallen back at first.
But the Center is really interesting and probably we will see a fleeing elite moving Northward, important for the NBA, and New incoming lineages combined with local ones for Ming new entities.
I would, however, not underestimate the impact the chariot had, coming quite obviously from the East in all these turmoils to the emergence of Celtic.
The end of Hallstatt looks like a revolution from the lower social strata indeed. Unetice might have fallen in a similar way but under more external pressure.
I don’t but the economic stress explanation at all.
@ Davidski
ReplyDeleteHow does R1b L51 fit into this picture ? Did they spread with this Corded Ware group to the Baltic or were they a later migration entering that area straight from the East at the same Latitude ?
zardos said...
ReplyDelete" @Archi: It might be true that Unetice got a new upper class coming from f.e. the South East, but the predominant ancestry was actually more CW-like again than in the BB. "
I don't know who was on top of it. I didn't write who was the ruling class there. I only claim that the Unetice culture/system itself is non-Indo-European in nature. Yes, the prevailing hypothesis is that Unetice was made up of very heterogeneous components, it involved very different groups, but what kind of groups were they? After all, CW is still a relatively monolithic culture, so it is unlikely that we are talking only about the contribution of the BBC. So to reduce everything only to the mix of CWC and BBC-origin does not get purely cultural, and apparently genetically.
To listen to what the Hunter Mamonth writes to himself more expensively, he is a shouted man who writes in questions he doesn't understand at all, he writes only mistakes, in each of his messages he is infinitely disgraced by the level of his ignorance. I only write what I know, I know, he knows absolutely nothing, and everybody is convinced of it.
Vladimir said...
" Archie Settlement Mikhailovka reference monument Ymnaiy culture."
Well, you don't know what you're writing about. First of all, it doesn't prove in any way that Sredniy Stog is Yamnaya culture. Absolutely, there is a big difference between the layers. Secondly, it does not prove that Yamnaya culture comes from Sredniy Stog. Third, it is called the benchmark because there are almost no others, it is the most unusual settlement of Yamnaya culture, because Yamnayans had no settlements, and this settlement has been preserved since milking times and it shows the fact that Yamnaya did not come from settlements like Michailovka. Don't carry nonsense, the battle axes in the steppes appear with the Sredniy Stog culture, spread with the Dereivka culture, so there is nothing to fantasize about the Sofiev culture. As far as I remember, in TRB it is still a working tool, not a fighting axe.
You grab some superficial messages as if you were opening up America to everyone.
Vladimir said...
" Archie Z93 has never been to Germany, there is no evidence of this. Z93 was the R1A tribe closest to the classical Yamnaiya culture. Apparently this is the part of R1a, which was adjacent to Z2103 in the Middle Volga and Middle don."
Do not fantasize, you have shown that you know nothing. You do not even know the distribution of R1a-Z93 and that it was not in Yamnaya culture.
See Old Central European R1a-Z93 at https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/
Be educated before you write teaching messages.
@Ric
ReplyDeleteI don't think any L51 was involved in the Corded Ware migrations to the Baltic. And if it was, then its frequency in these groups was very low, because it doesn't show up in any of the Baltic samples from the Corded Ware or Bronze Age periods. They're basically all R1a-M417.
So L51 was somewhere else within the Corded Ware complex, and it had to have taken a more southerly route to Northwestern Europe, like via Poland.
Davidski. I don't argue with that. Although, this in itself suggests that to the Baltic R1a somewhere crossed with the steppe population. And I'm talking about samples Tamula 1 and 3, Estonia, 3800-3640 BC Baltic MN CCC, R1, apparently untyped. He has both the steppe and the North of Ukraine, albeit in small quantities. This may suggest that CWC originated in Comb Ceramic and in N Ukr.
ReplyDelete@ Davidski
ReplyDeleteThanks. So somehow from Northern Russia towards the South and then Westwards ?
@Davidski
ReplyDelete"So L51 was somewhere else within the Corded Ware complex, and it had to have taken a more southerly route to Northwestern Europe, like via Poland."
Still, I don't understand one thing. If R1b has been moving across the continent by land, why is the BBC spreading only along the sea and rivers? Amazingly, from purely land people, they turn into sea and river travelers and fishermen.
@ Zardos
ReplyDelete“at least the cultural character of Unetice's centers looks less so. That doesnt mean it cant be, ”
What do you base this on ? Can you elaborate what cultural features you deem to be “IE”
I’m sure you’re aware the risk of circularity here
“And as for conquest from chariot driving Eastern elites at the end of Unetice, during TC, we'll see”
Global factors must be at play. Final fall of Minoans, thera eruption. El Argar also collapses near this point
I’ll dig around more about TC ...
@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteThere's no steppe ancestry or R1a-M417 in the East Baltic until the Corded Ware period, and Corded Ware didn't have anything to do with the Comb Ceramic culture.
You're looking at the output from the ADMIXTURE software and confusing the hypothetical ancient population most closely associated with CHG (Caucasus hunter-gatherers) with steppe ancestry.
Note that the earliest Baltic Late Neolithic samples are almost 100% Yamnaya-like, which means that they're almost 100% steppe. But just like Yamnaya, they're only 50% CHG-related. Comb Ceramic samples also show some CHG-related ancestry, but they have 0% steppe ancestry.
@Archi
ReplyDeleteStill, I don't understand one thing. If R1b has been moving across the continent by land, why is the BBC spreading only along the sea and rivers? Amazingly, from purely land people, they turn into sea and river travelers and fishermen.
I guess you'll keep wondering this even after you see the L51 in early Corded Ware samples.
Vladimir said...
ReplyDelete@a. That's what I'm talking about. Z93 adopted z2103 skills and lifestyle"
It is important to be as specific as possible, and not create extra unnecessary confusion. For example in the R1b world; Yamnaya, many belong to R1b-Z2103>Z2109+>KMS67+ a descendant from L23 and brother clade to L51+. In turn- can be constructed out of an older R1b-V1636+ population which also is in the same region and or stratified burials Progress 2001 for example.
To compare above in technology[Yamnaya construction of copper and or bronze and or wagon wheels, and their deployment on the steppe] , with the first known snp associated with R1a[for example 93 upstream and or downstream snps] and copper and or bronze and or the wheel and its deployment on the steppe.
In terms of the cluster of bronze Age Y. pestis that Yamnaya spread, due to its early skill set in metallurgy/ wagon building/taming the steppe ; there is no question that all R1a and or potential R1a that moved into previous Yamnaya region[since they had no settlements ] had late contact with basal cluster[situated by Yamanaya Caucasus and Progress region] therefore R1a came to acquire later strains of the bacteria.
@Davidski
ReplyDelete"I guess you'll keep wondering this even after you see the L51 in early Corded Ware samples."
While there is no answer to this question, any R1b in CWC means only the infiltration of R1b into the CWC environment, but not the arrival in their entirety. I have already cited the arguments on which the arrival of R1b in the CWC impossible.
Zardos
ReplyDelete“Term applied to a group of cultures of the middle Bronze Age of central and eastern Europe, broadly the early 2nd millennium bc, in which inhumation beneath a round barrow is the distinctive and predominant burial rite. Formerly regarded as the material manifestations of an intrusive population, the Tumulus Culture is now seen to have developed out of the Úneˇtice Culture and spread over a wide area from Hungary and Romania in the east through a heartland of southern Germany, to Alsace in the west. It is characterized by developed bronze types such as palstaves, flange‐hilted swords, dirks with rounded or trapezoidal butts, and a variety of pins and bracelets. These are found as grave goods in burials and in hoards. Pottery includes globular vessels with cylindrical necks, pedestalled bowls, and one‐handled cups, sometimes with embossed ornament. The Tumulus Culture is succeeded by the Urnfield Tradition of the late Bronze Age.”
From oxford reference
As I thought. TC is a fragment emerging from Unetice collapse . It’s base is southern Germany. So imaginable it might have higher post-BBC ancestry. I’m not sure why this group has to be “more IE” than others. I have no issue if this were the case; but I just don’t follow the reasoning
Blogger a said...
ReplyDelete"
Vladimir said...
@a. That's what I'm talking about. Z93 adopted z2103 skills and lifestyle"
It is important to be as specific as possible,"
No, this is a completely improbable amateur reasoning of a man ignorant of archaeology. R1a-Z93 did not borrow anything from Yamnians at all, they did not borrow any way of life. They lived in "cities", so lived Sintasta-Arkaim-Potapovka and Volsko-Lbische. Their way of life did not resemble that of the Yamnians at all. Carts they had own, not Yamnians. Moreover, they invented chariots and tamed a horse, which did not have holes.
@Archie/ It's all about nothing. What does YFull have to do with it ? aDNA Z93 where to find in Europe? Beginning in the 1970s, D. ya. Telegin included monuments such as the settlement of Derevivka and balki Kvityanaya in the allocated Srednestogovskaya culture (1970; 1973; 2001). Kvityanskie monuments he attributed to the first period of development of culture, Derevivka-to the second. The first period,in his opinion, is characterized by the absence of corded ornament, Unfurnished burial grounds and large flint products. The second period includes the settlements of Dereivka, Alexandria, Petrovskaya Balka, Molyukhov Hill, for which cord ornamentation of ceramics, flat-bottomed vessels, clay plastic is typical, while preserving the previous flint complex and the appearance of numerous horn and bone products. For the funeral rite, a combination of soil and underground burial grounds is typical. Age seredniy stiğ culture D. Ya. Telegin has identified approximately 4500-3000 BC in calibrated chronology (Telegin and others 2001). In Deriivka the cemetery there is no grave with the grave stone ax. Don't write.
ReplyDelete@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteaDNA Z93 where to find in Europe?
Coming soon don't worry.
@David: If a Southern CW related group brought R1b and was moving close to the mountains, like Vlachs in later times, how much are they the same group of people as more Northern CW R1a carriers?
ReplyDeleteLet's say a Southern CWR related group moved from the Carparthians through Slowakia into the Alps and was the whole time largely isolated from Northern flatland CW.
That would have been an early and important split, rather two branches actually.
Or do you expect a mixed group in which other lineages just disappeared over time?
So far we have little overlap. Not a single individual, which would prove nothing anyway because single POW or specialists don’t matter.
So even if they used CW pots, they were a different people before leaving for the West?
@Mammoth: Unetice had a protostate character of more Near Eastern/Mediterranean inspiration.
They had a class close to kings and princes, garrisons, granaries, bondslaves and peculiar human sacrifices among other things. The ethnic and social structure was more diverse and New lineages of yDNA I appear (origin? More samples needed).
The Tumulus culture was more centered around free warriors, clans and pastoralism again.
Now Unetice could have been "homegrown", but the suspicion that especially in its centers foreign influences might prove to be important seems to be justified.
I don’t imagine an Eastern invasion overtaking everything, rather like the Sea People bringing Hittites down, with new and local peripheral Players (like in Southern Germany!) trying to exploit the power vacuum after the collapse.
And the NBA didnt just emerge, the collapse and refugees from Unetice surely played a role.
How that cultural fact Pans out genetically I'm not sure.
Vladimir said. "/ It's all about nothing. What does YFull have to do with it ? aDNA Z93 where to find in Europe?"
ReplyDeleteThis is ridiculous, it is not an argument. aDNA R1a is literally ones, CWC is not good tested, almost all found CWC R1a are undefined finally.
YFull here directly applies, this is a fact unlike your fantasies.
Therefore you are wrong.
" In Deriivka the cemetery there is no grave with the grave stone ax. Don't write."
You are deeply mistaken because you do not know, of course in the steppe met copper battle axes, too. Because stone battle axes came from metal battle axes.
You don't know about the Dereivka culture.
You always pull texts from the most outdated sources without understanding their meaning.
@ Zardos
ReplyDeleteIts chain adaptation of N.E. customs through various European groups. Material culture is manipulated to codify & engrain identity, right to rule etc. Unetice is indeed a 'local culture' and don;t over-estimate the notion of 'kings' here. It was mostly the usual warrior identity but expressed in a new fashion.
2200 BC sees Sintastha Unetice proto-Myceneans proto-Anatolians. Can't be a coincidence
Tumulus culture is just a democritization of Unetice traditions. There's no revolution, just fragmentation & evolution.
@ Archie. Here the fundamental work of N. With. Kotova specialist on this issue. She described literally every !!! burial Cereuscula burial, and found that not one stone axe. https://ru.b-ok.cc/book/3105361/8abcc0
ReplyDelete@ Archie He work of N. S. Kotova in 2013, is not considered outdated
ReplyDeleteTotally confused now. R1b L51 Apparently in Northern Russia East of the Baltic and South of the Corded Ware...how does that work ?
ReplyDelete@ Archi said...
ReplyDeleteSintashta-Arkaim R1a region and or Corded Ware R1a North Baltic region were both carriers of the now extinct steppe clade of Yersinia pestis. However all things being equal in phylogeny; between the two related samples of Croatian Gen 72 and Corded Ware Gyvakarai 1 sample, Gen 72 is not only older but directly related to the basal branch [6000+/- TMRCA] in Caucasus RK1001 and Afansievo Rise 509 sample; I'm sorry you have to deal with it. Do you research it is all freely available[sometimes you have to read between the lines, like when sites in Cord Ware have hammer headed pins ].
@Mammoth: But thats the question where more genetic data points might help to clarify what really happened. Because if external influences played a big part, this will show in the genomes and lineages. But you need more samples for doing that, different:
ReplyDeleteTimes
Regions
Social strata
Even if you are able to prove continuity in TC Southern Germany, what about the Unetice centers in Czechia and Poland?
The chariot, afaik, appeared directly at the end/collapse of Unetice. A coincidence?
@ Vladimir s
ReplyDelete"She described literally every !!! burial Cereuscula burial, and found that not one stone axe."
I remember very well without you that a stone hammer axe, for example, was found in the village of Novorozanovka. You just do not know the archeology, until CWC the custom of burying with battle axes was not, they are all found in the settlements. You give out battle axes only for the burial object!
Quick question for anyone that can answer it.
ReplyDeleteIn reading the supplementary material, it looks like ALT_4 (Tauber boy) had enough resolution but simply lacked derived alleles for P312. So is that correct, that he is definitely not P312?
Of all the Beakers tested to date, and excluding the 3 in the Eastern Domain that were Z2103/5 or whatever, and another V88, how many Beakers had calls that were ancestral to P312 where the issue was not resolution?
ReplyDeleteThere is a big difference between Unetece and Tumulus cultures, and I don't care what the dictionary and some personality write here. That's why I wrote that these cultures should be tested, because now it's not clear, and not to listen to a statement of some ridiculous personality, which says that it's not necessary to do it, what to say and so everything is clear.
@ Archi/ In the burial grounds of the Sophia type burial with axes, to the culture of corded ceramics. Obviously because Sofiyevka is the beginning of the culture of corded ceramics
ReplyDeleteHas anyone else noticed that none of these wierdo lines of ydna are buried around the basal Caucasus lines of ydna[used in ancestral reconstruction percentages for example] and or reconstructed basal extinct Caucasian Pasteurella pestis lines?
ReplyDeleteVladimir said...
ReplyDelete" @ Archi/ In the burial grounds of the Sophia type burial with axes, to the culture of corded ceramics. Obviously because Sofiyevka is the beginning of the culture of corded ceramics"
No, absolutely imposible. I haven't found any descriptions of burials with battle axes in Sofievskaya culture, it's obviously some kind of deception. There are some common ones with working axes-hammers, but they are not relevant - they are not cult, but just ordinary burials. Corded ceramics were borrowed by the Trypolyers from the steppe. The rituality of the burial of the Sofievskaya group suggests that it cannot be a source of CWC in any dream, but you have no knowledge about this culture.
Sofievskaya culture burials contain daggers not battle axes. But the daggers are similar to those found in Usatovo kurgans.
ReplyDelete@bellbeakerblogger
ReplyDeleteIn reading the supplementary material, it looks like ALT_4 (Tauber boy) had enough resolution but simply lacked derived alleles for P312. So is that correct, that he is definitely not P312?
As far as I know, ALT_4 might well be P312 if not for missing data.
@ Zardos
ReplyDelete''Even if you are able to prove continuity in TC Southern Germany, what about the Unetice centers in Czechia and Poland?''
The main continuity of Unetice is Lausitz culture.
TC. is just a local group from emerging after Unetice collapses. There is nothing particularly eastern about it. It represents a less heriarchic organisation. There is no clear evidence that its particularly pastoralist. The Urnfield period is when chariots became important in Central Europe
ReplyDelete@BB blogger-
ALT_4 is positive for R1b-P310 and has no-calls or no coverage on R1b-L151, P311, L52, L11 and P312. L151 and P310/P311 are not equivalents
Mammoth_Hunter said... "The main continuity of Unetice is Lausitz culture."
ReplyDeleteWhat nonsense, the Lusatian culture comes from the Trzyniec culture (+Tumulus substrate cultures).
@Gaska
ReplyDeleteCan you ask your contacts how many Corded Ware L51 and P312 samples they know of?
There is evidence for a less crop and more pastoralist economy after the transition from Unetice to Tumulus.
ReplyDeleteIntroduced at the end of Unetice from the East, the chariots became indeed even more important over time in Central Europe until horseback riding became the main transport into battle even for the elite, like in Hallstatt.
And for continuity vs doscontinuity we need more samples and fine scaled analyses. We will have closely related people in any case. At the moment yDNA is key.
More in depth IBD/segment analysis with larger sample sizes will be the only way to go the messier it gets.
I don't mind. But there is work 1984g. AVILOVA LYUDMILA IVANOVNA. FUNERAL RITE OF AGRICULTURAL CULTURES OF THE ENEOLITHIC OF SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE. Quote: "Krasnogorskiy the burial is in the same area on the middle Dnieper, near Kiev. It is also located on a sand dune. The burial ground is excavated almost completely, has 195 burials. In the plan of the grave form two clusters of rectangular shapes, oriented to the countries of the world. Their dimensions are 4 by 6 m and 4 by 9 m, with the latter cluster having a sub-triangular projection on the side, on the Eastern side. Inside the clusters, the burials are very closely located, there are practically no burials outside them. The authors of the excavations believe that the correctness of the outlines of clusters and the density of burials in them is explained by the presence in ancient times of some structures, probably fences. At the same time, they consider the triangular ledge as an entrance. From red Khutor published a complete description of 44 burials, for which it is possible to conduct detailed calculations. Bce 23 buturovic burial inventory. The number of categories of things - from I to 6. There are vessels in two burials. Non-metallic guns and weapons are represented by 11 categories. The most frequent findings are those of the following categories - knives (11 cases), arrows (8), retouchers (5). Stone axes were found in 7 burials. Non-metallic jewelry found only 1 time. Metal is found in 12 burials, and in 11 cases it is ornaments-copper penetrations, in 1 case-an awl and in 5 cases - the weapon: 3 daggers, a dart, a knife. Thus, the bulk of the stone battle axes and metal weapons are concentrated in buturovic burials".
ReplyDeleteLyudmila I. Avilova – Dr. of Historical Science, researcher at the Institute of Archaeology, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, Russian Federation. Graduated from Moscow State University in 1975. Deputy Editor-in-Chief of the journal Kratkiye soobshcheniya Instituta arkheologii – KSIA (Brief Communications of the Institute of Archaeology). Scientific interests: Chalcolithic and Bronze Ages. Ph. D.: Burial rite of Eneolithic agricultural groups of South-Eastern Europe (1984), Moscow. Doctoral thesis: Metal of the Near East in context of social-economic and cultural processes (Eneolithic – Middle Bronze Age), 2011, Moscow. Scientific interests: Eneolithic and Bronze Age of South-Eastern Europe and the Near East, in particular: burial rituals, social structure, chronology, metal production and exchange, practical and symbolic role metal items played in early societies.
ReplyDeleteThanks,
ReplyDeleteSo we should wait for Usutovo samples to know more about R1b L51.....daggers and all...
ReplyDelete@Davidski said-Gaska- Can you ask your contacts how many Corded Ware L51 and P312 samples they know of?
ReplyDeleteThey told me that there was no R1b in the Swiss CWC and we know that at the moment there is also no R1b in the Czech CWC. The sample of Bavaria-ALt-4 is clearly an outlier without grave goods, whose steppe ancestry can be perfectly due to its mitochondrial lineage.
Besides, I don't think it's necessary to ask my contacts because you have already told us that there is a lot of R1b in the CWC and I don't have to doubt you. I reserve my opinion for when the papers are published (where they have found them, their dates, the type of burial and their autosomal composition)
Meanwhile we know
1- Apparently there is L51 in northern Russia??? Until I see it I don't believe it
2- There is no L51 or R1a in Yamnaya-
3- R1a did not share its migration with L51.
4- If as you say, there is L51 in the CWC, somewhere this culture had to pick it up- Where?
It will be wonderful to understand how CWC/R1bL51 (with its steppe ancestry, its battle axes, its corded pottery and its IE language) abandoned his R1a relatives forever in Eastern Europe and transformed in a BB lineage who knew perfectly the techniques of navigation on the high seas, who invented where do you prefer(Netherlands/Germany/Moravia/Hungary) a new culture (pottery, wristguards, abundant copper objects, V perforated buttons etc etc.) and then spread throughout Western Europe, to finally forget or lose their language.
Apparently we Basques and the rest of Iberians are the most direct descendants of these miraculous gentlemen so whatever the final solution, we will accept it without problems.
We will never cease to be grateful to that superior race of the steppe riders because after all they are our ancestors
The WHG-shift from the "Northern" CWC sample and the BBC Lech sample is interesting. I know many have postulated this as coming from WHG-heavy farmer admixture.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I believe it might be b/c of structure within the steppe population. Among the Sredny Stog samples in G25, the Dereivka sample from 3,200 BCE looks like a WHG-shifted version of the Alexandria sample from 4,000 BCE.
I ran a ton of pre-Yamnaya nMontes here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18586-Kinship-based-social-inequality-in-Bronze-Age-Europe&p=609802&viewfull=1#post609802
[i]Current theory:
- One Repin-related group carrying R1a-M417 rapidly worked northwest thru the forest-steppe circa 3500 BCE, while the cousins they left behind were folded into Yamnaya on the steppe proper
- The splinter Repin group bumped into the remnants of the Dnepier-Donets hunters somewhere near the Ukraine-Belarus border; DD guys contributed R-L51 to the mix[/i]
Ric Hern said...
ReplyDelete" So we should wait for Usutovo samples to know more about R1b L51.....daggers and all..."
Knives in burials are archaism. This was anywhere in Estearn Europe.
"The splinter Repin group bumped into the remnants of the Dnepier-Donets hunters somewhere near the Ukraine-Belarus border; DD guys contributed R-L51 to the mix"
ReplyDeleteInteresting idea, but rather than just mix they would have to form separate clans which stayed separately and took different paths as a new tribe?
There was no big paternal panmixture or otherwise you would have different lineages side by side everywhere, when the opposite is true.
@ Archi
ReplyDeleteYes maybe like the Indo-European Archaisms in Celtic and Italic Languages...Heheheeh. and yes it is Usatovo.
"Interesting idea, but rather than just mix they would have to form separate clans which stayed separately and took different paths as a new tribe?
ReplyDeleteThere was no big paternal panmixture or otherwise you would have different lineages side by side everywhere, when the opposite is true."
Good point. Perhaps the L51 men just engaged in bride transfer with the M417 men to varying degrees in different clans. In early CWC/BBC samples, besides the variable levels of Globular Amphora-related admixture, there IS plenty of structure related to EHG/CHG and EHG/WHG ratios...
@K33 said...
ReplyDelete"I ran a ton of pre-Yamnaya nMontes here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18586-Kinship-based-social-inequality-in-Bronze-Age-Europe&p=609802&viewfull=1#post609802"
If Russia En is PG2001=R1b-V1636+ then the results are equal to a red herring and should be technically invalidated disqualified. Russia Caucasus PG2001-R1b V1636+,Khvalynsk I0222 R1b-V1636+ and Armenia I1635, Kura-Araxes, 2600-2400 BC R1b V1636+ belong to the same paternal cluster and are found everywhere Yamnaya R1b-Z2106>Z2109+ are found and or stratified. There are no R1a kurgans by these burials, Sintashta R1a-Z93 as an example.
It would be better to use ancient R1a from Basque or Bell Beaker Italy.
Ric Hern said...
ReplyDelete" Yes maybe like the Indo-European Archaisms in Celtic and Italic Languages...Heheheeh. and yes it is Usatovo."
Why would you do that? The mere presence of knives is not a diagnostic feature, they do not determine the continuity of cultures. The presence of knives as well as arrows in burials does not mean anything in itself, but their absence is already indicative.
@Ric Hern
ReplyDeleteI think they meant barrow alignments, meaning a row of barrows aligned along a road side. If I recall correctly there even are similar features in the Yamnaya cultural horizon.
"in any case, several tumuli of this kind can then be arranged in groups or linear alignments; but isolated tumuli are also often recorded."
https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3493
@Archi said...
ReplyDeleteRic Hern said...
" Yes maybe like the Indo-European Archaisms in Celtic and Italic Languages...Heheheeh. and yes it is Usatovo."
Why would you do that? The mere presence of knives is not a diagnostic feature, they do not determine the continuity of cultures. The presence of knives as well as arrows in burials does not mean anything in itself,"
Sure it does. Working raw copper ore into a finished blade is a skill, requiring knowledge of ore bodies, heat, and metal characteristics.
ReplyDelete""a": If Russia En is PG2001=R1b-V1636+ then the results are equal to a red herring and should be technically invalidated disqualified."
Not sure what you mean, nMonte has nothing to do with haplogroups.
My point was that:
- The major steppe-related component in CWC and BBC is autosomally midway between the Alexandria (western Sredny Stog) and Progress Eneolithic (Caucasus steppe) samples
- Neither Alexandria nor Progress (nor Yamnaya) have R-L51, which at least in BBC (and maybe in some CWC) was a major lineage
- Therefore my hypothesis is that a culture midway between western Sredny Stog and the Caucasus foothills (like Repin) would match the steppe autosomal profile of CWC/BBC and MAYBE also turn up the missing R-L51. And if not, then when a Repin-like group moved into the forest steppe, perhaps they picked up L51 there
@a "Sure it does. Working raw copper ore into a finished blade is a skill, requiring knowledge of ore bodies, heat, and metal characteristics."
ReplyDeleteNo, it is a type of treatment, for the metal age it is not about anything, and the presence of a knife in burials is found in almost any culture associated to Eastern Europe.
In general, the knives are so similar that even within the culture they are not a sign of culture, they rather change from the epochal stage. Knives are not distinctive.
@K33 said...
ReplyDelete"Not sure what you mean, nMonte has nothing to do with haplogroups."
Don't be silly. All without exception, all Bell Beakers, Yamnaya are L23+
We both know that these calculators can be manipulated, depending on input and inferred populations. That is why your choice to bypass a samples like Yamnaya Io443+ that is L23+ L51- and Z2105- and found in the same region as R1b-V1636+ and can be modeled with it. Those R1b-L51+ in Corded Ware are red herrings. Otherwise you would be able to track and interchange R1a/L51 into Italy and Basque. I get the feeling L51 did not like to share with R1a Baltisch otherwise we would already start to see R1a in Swiss,Czech,Italian,Basque Bell Beaker.
Incidentally, in this same book very detail described by and Usatovo. For example, on the funeral rite. Of the 70 burials, 39 are burial mounds, 31 are non-burial mounds. 57 of 70 burials are single. 56 of 70 burials the skeleton is twisted. 35 on the left side, 2 on the right side, 10 on the back. Orientation: 34 in the North-East, 14 East, 2 in the South-East. Inventory in the graves: vessels in almost all, metal products: daggers, axes, awl, rings, etc.
ReplyDeleteArchi said...
ReplyDelete"No, it is a type of treatment, for the metal age it is not about anything, and the presence of a knife in burials is found in almost any culture associated to Eastern Europe.
In general, the knives are so similar that even within the culture they are not a sign of culture, they rather change from the epochal stage. Knives are not distinctive."
No,no,no. Bronze knife with tin requires logistical outsourcing for both copper and tin, and fumes less harmful. Bronze knife like Sintashta is copper/arsenic and harmful. That is why probably Sintashta R1b were metalurgists/managers and did not inhale the toxic fumes. I think R1a craftsman had neurological damage after, and could not walk, that is why Sintashta R1b helped them make rickshaw type vehicle with wheels.
@K33 said-[i]Current theory:
ReplyDelete- One Repin-related group carrying R1a-M417 rapidly worked northwest thru the forest-steppe circa 3500 BCE, while the cousins they left behind were folded into Yamnaya on the steppe proper
- The splinter Repin group bumped into the remnants of the Dnepier-Donets hunters somewhere near the Ukraine-Belarus border; DD guys contributed R-L51 to the mix[/i]
It is certainly a possibility because archaeologically it could make sense. There is a certain relationship of DD culture with some traits of Western cultures (Ochre, individual and collective burials, pottery) and also its territory reached Poland-Then it is clear that these migrants from Repin were able to pick up L51 on the way to Poland or the Baltic
That difference in WHG ancestry may be at the origin of the different clans, but to keep it until the Third Millennium, you need that R1a and R1b had been separated for hundreds of years. It is easier to think that L51 arrived on its own in Central Europe via Poland with the westernmost hgs of the DD culture and that when the CWC arrived some of them joined it.
a said...
ReplyDelete"Bronze knife"
What's with the bronze knives when we talk about Eneolithic?
You have described the epochal variability, not the cultural variability, it is impossible to give out one for another - you mix them up. These are not cultural differences, but an epochal change. It doesn't say anything about any continuity.
I have written to you about the epochal variability:
In general, the knives are so similar that even within the culture they are not a sign of culture, they rather change from the epochal stage.
October 15, 2019 at 8:34 AM Delete
Sintashta refers to the transition from the Middle Bronze Age to the Late Bronze Age, and the change of technology absolutely does not indicate its origin, any cultural continuity. This is just an epochal change of technology and nothing more.
@ Archi
ReplyDeleteWhat is the date of the Sofievskaya Culture ?
Ric Hern said...
ReplyDelete" What is the date of the Sofievskaya Culture ?"
I don't know the radiocarbon dating, maybe it doesn't exist at all because she's been digging for a long time. This culture belongs to the later stage of Tripolye CII.
It is doubtful to consider this culture to be Tripolye, at least its burial rite has nothing common with Tripolye.
@Gaska "@K33 said-[i]Current theory:
ReplyDelete- One Repin-related group carrying R1a-M417 rapidly worked northwest thru the forest-steppe circa 3500 BCE, while the cousins they left behind were folded into Yamnaya on the steppe proper
- The splinter Repin group bumped into the remnants of the Dnepier-Donets hunters somewhere near the Ukraine-Belarus border; DD guys contributed R-L51 to the mix[/i]
It is certainly a possibility because archaeologically it could make sense. There is a certain relationship of DD culture with some traits of Western cultures (Ochre, individual and collective burials, pottery) and also its territory reached Poland-Then it is clear that these migrants from Repin were able to pick up L51 on the way to Poland or the Baltic
That difference in WHG ancestry may be at the origin of the different clans, but to keep it until the Third Millennium, you need that R1a and R1b had been separated for hundreds of years. It is easier to think that L51 arrived on its own in Central Europe via Poland with the westernmost hgs of the DD culture and that when the CWC arrived some of them joined it."
A question: do you think that the pre-split R* people spoke a common ancestral language to R1a and R1b clans which could've been considered the most ancestral basal PIE?
The late stage (Tripoli C2) dates from 3150-2650 BC.
ReplyDeleteE. Sofievka 3000 BC Plus or minus 100 years https://arheologija.ru/avilova-orlovskaya-radiouglerodnyiy-metod-i-problemyi-datirovaniya-bronzovogo-veka/
@ Vladimir
DeleteThanks.
I suspect that the PIE has something to do with remnants of Bug-Dniester and/or Dnieper-Donetsk than with anything to do with Vonyuchka or Khvalynsk. In that case, as in Gimbutas' Kurgan theory, the loci of the putative PIE urmheit would be either in areas of Sredny Stog II or even to the west of it, possibly due to intensive interaction with sedentary farmer cultures to its immediate west. That's probably the source of the R1a1 minority found in Khvalyns but not in the Samara HG or Sidelkino that preceded it.
ReplyDelete@Vladimir "The late stage (Tripoli C2) dates from 3150-2650 BC.
ReplyDeleteE. Sofievka 3000 BC Plus or minus 100 years https://arheologija.ru/avilova-orlovskaya-radiouglerodnyiy-metod-i-problemyi-datirovaniya-bronzovogo-veka/"
You're on to something here. Cucuteni Tripolye has contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Sredny Stog II, particularly to the ~20% EEF within CWC. Any GAC contribution must be much later in time, and therefore limited.
@a "No,no,no. Bronze knife with tin requires logistical outsourcing for both copper and tin, and fumes less harmful. Bronze knife like Sintashta is copper/arsenic and harmful. That is why probably Sintashta R1b were metalurgists/managers and did not inhale the toxic fumes. I think R1a craftsman had neurological damage after, and could not walk, that is why Sintashta R1b helped them make rickshaw type vehicle with wheels."
ReplyDeleteSintashta was overwhelmingly R1a1.
@Andre Yamana R1b development of copper/bronze/iron metallurgy all developed before z93 can even be found in Kargaly mines and Arkaim. Sintashta Arkaim are built on top of stratified Yamana burials probably for good luck. Khvalynsk oldest R1a copper burial is dead end branch not related between Cord and Sintashta. Spoke same language as R1b V1636 Khvalynsk.
Delete@Vladimir
ReplyDelete"E. Sofievka 3000 BC Plus or minus 100 years"
No, The Sofievskaya culture belongs to the 10th stage of 11 of the last part of the CII. On the chart from the article it is 2700-2800 cal BC.
@Davidski "@Vladimir
ReplyDeleteThere's no steppe ancestry or R1a-M417 in the East Baltic until the Corded Ware period, and Corded Ware didn't have anything to do with the Comb Ceramic culture."
He's confused because Comb Ceramic was EHG like the 50% of Yamnaya, therefore it carried the same haplogroups likewise. Comb Ceramic was the likely source of the EHG layer responsible for the switch from Kunda (strictly WHG) into Narva, a culture which is autosomally similar to SHG.
Going off on a tangent here slightly towards physical anthropology as a response to a couple of posters on this entry: it seems that SHG (Motala) and Baltic HG had the alleles for the "Nordic-ish" phenotype when it comes to light pigmentation, which may or may not be a heritage passed down from Afontova Gora 3. Thus, I suspect that the "blondism" traits common or frequent among many members of GAC and/or TRB may be attributed to either Baltic HG admixture or to Erteboelle (or to both); Yamnaya, with its strong ANE (up to 50% from both CHG and EHG sources), which had been mixing with Neolithic Farmers and WHG foragers as well, can not be ruled out to carry the "classical Indo-European" blondism. It seems to me that many scientists are very uncomfortable with the notion of the original PIE being blond haired and blue eyed, but that bias should not be clouding their judgment.
With that, I'm done commenting on physical anthropology.
"Yamana R1b development of iron metallurgy"
ReplyDeleteface
"Sintashta Arkaim are built on top of stratified Yamana burials"
palm
Utevka mound 1 burial 1. : )
Delete@Archie On the chart, it starts at about 3000. In General, I read that Sofiyevka is similar to Usatovo. Only Usatov tribes separated from the southern part of Tripoli, and Sophia tribes from the Northern part of Tripoli
ReplyDeleteRomulus Anyone who thinks Steppe women were preferred is not using logic. The constant from CWC->BBC->MBA is increasing Farmer ancestry and decreasing Yamnaya related ancestry.
ReplyDeleteYou don't understand the situation. Every time a steppe person mates with a non steppe person the steppe ancestry is halved. If this happens for a mere two generations the steppe admixture would be 1/4.
Since central Europeans BB and CWC are about half steppe, this means the steppe mixed men were far more likely to mix with steppe mixed women.
This happened during the neolithic as well, it took a very long time for populations to mix.
@Vladimir "On the chart, it starts at about 3000."
ReplyDeleteNo, it's the beginning of a systematic error. All the radio carbon dates are not a point, but a range.
"In General, I read that Sofiyevka is similar to Usatovo. Only Usatov tribes separated from the southern part of Tripoli, and Sophia tribes from the Northern part of Tripoli"
The Usatovskaya culture is much older than the Sofievskaya culture. It refers to the 9th stage, you can even see it on the diagram.
@pnuadha "Romulus Anyone who thinks Steppe women were preferred is not using logic. The constant from CWC->BBC->MBA is increasing Farmer ancestry and decreasing Yamnaya related ancestry.
ReplyDeleteYou don't understand the situation. Every time a steppe person mates with a non steppe person the steppe ancestry is halved. If this happens for a mere two generations the steppe admixture would be 1/4.
Since central Europeans BB and CWC are about half steppe, this means the steppe mixed men were far more likely to mix with steppe mixed women.
This happened during the neolithic as well, it took a very long time for populations to mix."
Nope! The male: female ratio of Steppe migration was 14:1. A very sex-biased admixture.
@ Davidski
ReplyDeleteit doesn't show up in any of the Baltic samples from the Corded Ware or Bronze Age periods. They're basically all R1a-M417.
There is one R1b in Baltic_BA:
Kivutkalns153 800-545 calBCE Latvia_BA M U5a1a1 R1b1a2
And it looks like ALT_4 is a little bit Baltic_BA-shifted (up to 10% in some models):
https://i.postimg.cc/MTsJ1jgC/tauber.png
BTW at first I thought that you've mislabelled ALT_4 and ALT_3 on the PCA, because in the paper ALT_3 seems to be less steppe-shifted than ALT_4. But there are huge error margins in every analysis that involves ALT_3 (including the test for sex-biased admixture).
Can you re-check the ancestry on the X chromosome of ALT_4? Theoretically steppe male bias was detected in Tauber CWC, but this score may be driven by the problematic ALT_3 sample.
But the main question is different. Linguists believe that a single Indo-European language existed 6,000 years ago. Take 5000-7000 years ago. Where is the place uniting R1a, R1b, I1, I2 ? I do not see anything except Khvalynsk-Sredniy Stog, which absorbed the Dnieper-Donetsk and other Mesolithic cultures of this area, as well as partially Tripoli. There is nothing more suitable
ReplyDelete@Arza, re: signal of sex-biased admix in Tauber CWC, yes error margins must be large. I'd actually regard the signal on the big Lech_EBA set as possibly the only signal to place much confidence in, so big are difficulties finding a signal here.
ReplyDeleteThe dynamics of admixture also mean that it's quite possible with some generations of back and forth to have a situation where almost all the admixture is "Steppe Y Chromosome males; other females", without actually getting any detectable signal a steppe vs EEF X:Autosome contrast, because you have episodes of backmixture between males with mostly EEF ancestry but who have steppe y chromosomes with females who have more steppe ancestry.
Then any remaining signal can fall under your standard errors.... (Hence probably why signals disappeared over time in the Baltic transect that was examined from Corded Ware->Medieval?).
X:Autosome signals have shown promise in recent situations where you have had Europeans mixing with Africans and Native Americans, but those have involved situations where it has all happened fairly recently, and then the admixed populations have been suppressed from backmixture until fairly recently.... Not likely to be the case in CA-EBA Europe, where males who are the offspring of steppe males and EEF females would not (as far as the evidence goes) have been suppressed from backmixture...
@Arza
ReplyDeleteKivutkalns153 800-545 calBCE Latvia_BA M U5a1a1 R1b1a2
And it looks like ALT_4 is a little bit Baltic_BA-shifted (up to 10% in some models)
https://i.postimg.cc/MTsJ1jgC/tauber.png
It would be better to demonstrate it with a PCA that actually contains Baltic_BA. Baltic Corded Ware is the main ancestor, but lacks some specific drift, so not the same thing. From the PCA it is not obvious that ALT_4 is pulled toward the Baltic, compared to for example CWC Germany, so whether such a pull is detectable depends on a somewhat arbitrary choice of "opposite" reference population.
As for the R1b in Latvia, Kivutkalns153 is ages younger that ALT_3 and ALT_4.
@ Archie
ReplyDelete''What nonsense, the Lusatian culture comes from the Trzyniec culture (+Tumulus substrate cultures).''
Wait & see, dumbass
@ Zardos
''And for continuity vs doscontinuity we need more samples and fine scaled analyses. We will have closely related people in any case. At the moment yDNA is key.
More in depth IBD/segment analysis with larger sample sizes will be the only way to go the messier it gets.''
You're very slow. Look, TC is nothing special. Get over it.
I didn't say TC is so special, rather its better to align with earlier IE characteristics and later cultures than Unetice, which is more of a outlier in comparison in various ways.
ReplyDeleteUnetice is not homogeneous enough nor do we have enough data to be sure, but I think more Southern influences from the Carpathian region might have been present. Culturally for sure, genetically maybe too, we'll see.
TC will eventually yield some Eastern influences in its former centers, regions closer to the forest steppe and a decrease of the main elite element in the local lineages. That's at least likely.
And you said there was no going back to increased animal husbandry : crop farming from UC to TC, which is plain wrong. Unetice was much more of a farmer culture, in every respect, than the preceding and succeeding regional cultures with steppe influence.
Unless you have more data from Unetice and TC, you can't be sure right now about what happened. You might be right and on the point, but you can't know for sure.
And stop with the ad hominem, its undeserving and doesn't make your "arguments" look any better, though the actual content of your last posts was rather meagre.
@ Zardos
ReplyDelete“And you said there was no going back to increased animal husbandry : crop farming from UC to TC, which is plain wrong. ”
Any zooarchaeological data to back that up. ?
@ Mammoth_Hunter
ReplyDeleteWait & see
M458?
@ Slumbery
ReplyDeleteI thought that the position of Baltic_BA in this PCA is obvious and well known. The "opposite reference" is the whole Yamnaya-EEF cline (here Corded_Ware_Baltic_early - Corded_Ware_CZE_o).
Here you can project onto this PCA any sample you want:
https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/
@ Gaska
ReplyDelete''They told me that there was no R1b in the Swiss CWC and we know that at the moment there is also no R1b in the Czech CWC.''
That should be an interesting paper. Hopefully, the CWC has good coverage.
Its interesting though, in Switzerland, CWC & BB settlements arent related, unliek some sites in Bohemia. Must relate to changes in lake levels
@Gaska
ReplyDeleteThey told me that there was no R1b in the Swiss CWC and we know that at the moment there is also no R1b in the Czech CWC.
Your contacts don't appear to be up to date with the latest results. But I'm sure they'll catch up eventually.
@Davidski
ReplyDeleteWe are calm, in Spain there are more than 400 ancient genomes analyzed to publish, some of them in doctoral theses. Don't worry we will draw our own conclusions. I think they will wait for other people to continue to make a fool
Hitting the nail squarely on the head
@Gaska
ReplyDeleteWell, the main Corded Ware marker is obviously R1a-M417, but R1b-L51 is also a Corded Ware marker, and so is I2a2a to a lesser degree.
Bell Beakers were basically an offshoot of Corded Ware. The only thing that remains to be learned is which Corded Ware group they came from exactly.
Everyone will have to accept this sooner or later. Maybe even early next year.
Still would to know where came itself CWC. Oddly enough, such a significant moment and still unanswered
ReplyDeleteIf we do find a set of Corded Ware burials associated with R1b-L51, it'll be interesting to see if there's any archaeological re-analysis, that tests whether these burials are simply undifferentiated Corded Ware, or actually represent a slightly different burial culture in diagnostic features.
ReplyDeleteIt seems a bit odd that you would suddenly go from a y-dna split with no observable cultural split in burial, to a y-dna split with an observable cultural split in burial, and easier to imagine one which is culturally split in burialfrom about as deep as the y-structure is seen; it might be that any "Corded Ware" that turns out to be ancestral to Beaker is actually a third stream of burial tradition apart from Yamnaya and "Corded Ware" proper. (And in my mind that would be consistent with it being most likely scenario that these all ultimately represent branches from an unstructured population with many y-dna clades, which underwent a branching accompanied by a y-dna founder effect.)
My prediction is that there’s population structure in western forest steppe
ReplyDeleteThere’s no way to accurately explain steppe ancestry in Balkans from a singular Yamnaya horizon, not genetically, not culturally, not anthropologically
Yamnaya and western (R1a-Z645 & L664) CWC could be a Clade; but even here there’s probably more something to it (eg CWC doesn’t “descend” from Yamnaya anymore than Yamnaya descends from CWC). Pre-Sintashta is its own group
P312 (proto-Beaker) could be from an unsampled Ukraine eneolithic
@davidski said- "Well, the main Corded Ware marker is obviously R1a-M417, but R1b-L51 is also a Corded Ware marker, and so is I2a2a to a lesser degree.Bell Beakers were basically an offshoot of Corded Ware. The only thing that remains to be learned is which Corded Ware group they came from exactly. Everyone will have to accept this sooner or later. Maybe even early next year"
ReplyDeleteI have already told you that I do not have to doubt what you say about finding L51 in the CWC, I suppose you will have good information about it, so surely in a few months we can discuss it-We also know that for you L51 will appear in deep Eastern Europe, that, together with R1a, it spoke an IE language and that the BB culture emerged from a subculture of the CWC- For you as for the vast majority of Kurganists, Western Europe is simply the sink where all the genetic, archaeological, linguistic and anthropological innovations that originated in Eastern Europe, ended.I think that this is a simplistic and outdated vision, everything was much more complicated and we have to make a great effort together to reach a satisfactory explanation.
Maybe you are right or maybe in a few months you have to write a thread titled "Is CWC overrated"?
You and I know that Yamnaya is totally out of the game, that R1a and R1b migrations are independent and that the Kurganists have to urgently seek solutions- I think you are trying to save R1b-L51 from the stake (obviously I can be wrong) and I also believe that ultra-Kurganists will never thank you for it. Maybe you should focus on R1a and expect events regarding R1b-L51, because remember that Eastern BBs do not come from the steppes but from Central and Western Europe.