How were the people in Poland changing over the centuries, from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century? Did the Slavs migrate to our territories, or are they indigenous? The 3D scanning project and digital access to skulls, skeletons and DNA from human remains from central Poland is expected to help answer these questions. ... Research shows that the shape of the cerebral part of the skull has changed over the centuries - people in the early Middle Ages had more elongated heads. This interesting phenomenon has not been fully explained yet. "There are many theories on this subject, but it is not known whether this was a microevolutionary genetic change, or perhaps an environmentally conditioned one, associated with a reconstruction of the skull as a consequence of the chewing apparatus being relieved" - he adds. Researchers are also trying to assess the level of diversity of the population living in the territory of present-day Poland during that period and whether migrants from other areas of Europe, for example from Scandinavia, appeared here. "There is the topic of participation of Scandinavian groups in the creation of the Polish State. Such groups indeed penetrated Poland, they could be hired warriors. But I think that, for example, we can probably put aside the hypothesis that Mieszko I was Scandinavian" - the researcher says. The features, the variability of which anthropologists study, include the height of the body. We already know that, for example, people in the early Middle Ages in Poland were relatively tall, similar to Poles in the 1960s. Later there was a clear decline in body height, lasting until the 19th century. ... There are already first conclusions from the research of the team from the Biobank Laboratory and the Department of Anthropology. The researchers believe that in the case of the population living in Kujawy there was a surprisingly strong genetic continuity, dating back to the time of the first farmers, 7.5 thousand years ago. "It seems that we are dealing with an interesting genetic continuation in the population living in Kujawy from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century. The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic" - the scientist suggests.Source: 3D scans of skulls and a collection of ancient DNA will be available on the information platform e-Czlowiek.pl See also... They came, they saw, and they mixed
Sunday, June 9, 2019
Genetic continuity across the millennia in central Poland
Apparently, ancient DNA and anthropological research on the populations of what is now central Poland suggests strong genetic continuity in the region since the Neolithic or even Mesolithic. Science in Poland has a news feature about the soon to be published study (see here). Below are a few quotes from the article. Emphasis is mine:
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Are we to believe that the whole of Europe experienced a massive population shift but a small region in Poland didn't? We obviously have to wait for what will be published, but the text actually states this:
"It seems that we are dealing with an interesting genetic continuation in the population living in Kujawy from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century. The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic" - the scientist suggests.
It might be exaggerated to extrapolate that to the Mesolithic.
@epoch
I don't know what the real story is, and it's possible that they're exaggerating, but in any case the text says this...
There are already first conclusions from the research of the team from the Biobank Laboratory and the Department of Anthropology. The researchers believe that in the case of the population living in Kujawy there was a surprisingly strong genetic continuity, dating back to the time of the first farmers, 7.5 thousand years ago.
"It seems that we are dealing with an interesting genetic continuation in the population living in Kujawy from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century. The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic" - the scientist suggests.
"We already know that, for example, people in the early Middle Ages in Poland were relatively tall, similar to Poles in the 1960s. Later there was a clear decline in body height, lasting until the 19th century."
What do you think caused the decline?
"It seems that we are dealing with an interesting genetic continuation in the population living in Kujawy from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century. The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic"
It is very interesting. I suspect that it means that Mesolithic WHG from Kujawy mixed with EEF there forming EEF-WHG -mixed farmers which probably participated in the formation of Corded Were when some steppe Post-Sredny-Stog-Western-Yamnay (PIE ?) tribes arrived in this area.
If WHG and EEF from Kujawy is found in early Corded Ware in Poland and in Sintashta and Andronovo then a lot of Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian origin will be explained.
@epoch, yeah, I'm expecting a bit of a "Farmers at this location had some mesolithic ancestry so it must have been from the same region(!) and then BA populations had some farmer ancestry so it must have been from the same region(!)" for fairly straightforwardly nationalistic reasons. "Real" Continuity from the Middle Ages seems likely enough of course.
The genetic continuity of the European female lineages is a proven fact throughout Europe since the hunter-gatherers mixed to a greater or lesser extent with the Neolithic farmers. And obviously that continuity reaches to the present- This is one of the main arguments against the hypothetical massive migrations from the steppes that would have changed in the III millennium BC the genetic pool of mainland Europe- In fact even in the CW the percentage of haplogroups from the steppes is very small (around 10%), in other places like Germany, France and Spain the percentages are even smaller or nonexistent. Everyone could think that Poland given its geographical location is a region more prone to undergo profound genetic transformations, however if that study is right, it seems that in Poland may have happened the same as in France or Spain (from Italy we know hardly anything)
So what kind of massive migrations changed the European genetics?
Only men came from the steppes?
What lineages were typical of these migrants?
They arrived in a proportion large enough to extend the steppe signal throughout Europe to percentages of even 80% in some samples analyzed?
And this was achieved without women hardly participating in the migrations?
What are the steppe cultures where the migrations originated?
Yamnaya?
If Mr. Quiles participates in this blog, he would try to convince us that L51 is hidden in the Yamnaya culture, that people who think that P312 is related to the expansion of NO-IE languages are Basque fanatics-R1b-Df27. and that people who think that R1a spoke IE are nordicist fanatics-R1a-
Rumors say that the Etruscans plots close to the Spaniards, while the southern Italians seem more Levantine, if R1b-P312 appears in the Etruscans and a genetic continuity can be demonstrated with the BB culture, then the theories of demic diffusion of the IE linked to Haplogroup R1b-P312 will be definitively debunked -When the Italian papers will be published?
From my point of view, this would only leave R1a and certain sub-clades of R1b, as candidates for the expansion of IE to the West and East
It will be interesting to see if there is a genetic connection[Poland-Slav- Alan-Sarmatian] with some theories.For example comparing Polish with Ossetian-Alania speaking[Eastern European Iranian dialect] ydna project:
"Matasović notes typological coincidences between Slavic and Ossetian, an Iranian language whose ancestor was Alanic. In both modern Ossetian and the Slavic group, verbs are conjugated for perfective and imperfective aspects; prefixation is a prominent means of deriving perfective verbs from imperfective verbs; there are certain syntactic behaviors of pronominal clitics in common; both sporadically mark direct objects with the genitive. It remains to be determined, however, whether those correspondences are a result of prehistoric contacts between Slavic and Alanic tribes, or just a case of accidental parallel development."
Is there any y-haplogroups yet? Come on, we can finally find a M458! Although this information might clash with the post last month about the slaughter of the GAC people, a couple of whom were in my J1c mtdna haplogroup, but then that was in southern Poland, not in Kujawy, which I imagine would have been a locus of Gothic settlement, but then as the indigenes were descendant of Corded Ware, and Scandinavia was a Corded Ware center, too, so they would not have been that distantly related.
mtDNA as the basis?
Aren't migrations and back migrations a possibility? One thing ancient dna has taught us over the last 15 years or so is that people were more mobile than once thought.
Without data, it's pointless to talk about continuity/discontinuity.
@rozenfag
Without data, it's pointless to talk about continuity/discontinuity.
It's not pointless. Judging by what was said in the article, there must be some kind of a specific link between the Mesolithic, Neolithic, Medieval and 19th century populations in central Poland.
My bet is that this goes well beyond the sharing of the usual broad ancient autosomal components, like WHG and EEF, and probably refers to high resolution uniparental markers, like mtDNA lineages inferred from mito-genomes.
@Gaska
Both the Etruscans and early Italic speakers from Central Italy basically look like a two-way mix between Neolithic farmers and Central European Bell Beakers. So they're quite northern and obviously with significant steppe ancestry.
Romans also have steppe ancestry, but they're much more southern, with quite a few clustering with modern eastern Mediterranean populations.
So it's already fairly clear what happened; there was a lot of immigration into Rome from the eastern Mediterranean, probably mostly from Greece but also Anatolia and the Levant, which shifted the population structure in much of Italy in a big way.
@Davidski
"Both the Etruscans and early Italic speakers from Central Italy basically look like a two-way mix between Neolithic farmers and Central European Bell Beakers. So they're quite northern and obviously with significant steppe ancestry."
So early iron age italics speakers will have something like 20/25 per cent steppe ancestry?
@Davidski said- "So it's already fairly clear what happened; there was a lot of immigration into Rome from the eastern Mediterranean, probably mostly from Greece but also Anatolia and the Levant, which shifted the population structure in much of Italy in a big way"
Yes, and it is normal considering that Rome was the capital of the Empire. Bronze
Age Greeks and Iron Age Italians potentially share similar ancestral origins
Vagnari-"Roman workers"- Mit Haps-D4b1c-T2j1-X2e2a-N1a1a1a-H16d-J1b4-K2a9-H50-I5a2-H47-H15a-T2g-N1b1a2-HV-H2-H-H5b etc---
Some may have European origin, others seem very very very far
Regarding Poland, it will be very interesting to check that genetic continuity, of course to a certain extent it is a surprise (at least for me)
@old europe
I read some of your posts and they remind me of an old friend from Lombardy, of course I may be wrong
@Davidski
"Both the Etruscans and early Italic speakers from Central Italy basically look like a two-way mix between Neolithic farmers and Central European Bell Beakers. So they're quite northern and obviously with significant steppe ancestry.
Romans also have steppe ancestry, but they're much more southern, with quite a few clustering with modern eastern Mediterranean populations."
What paper is this coming from?
With relation to continuities and discontinuities in European history . New study shows almost no genetic continuity between medieval islamic population in southern Spain and nowadays population. It is amazing as the region studied
was the last territory under islamic rule: the nasrid emirate of Granada.
Genocides are not a modern invention.
"Genetic structure in the paternal lineages of South East Spain revealed by the analysis of 17 Y-STRs". Scientific Reports 9, Article number: 5234 (2019)
Davidski
“My bet is that this goes well beyond the sharing of the usual broad ancient autosomal components, like WHG and EEF, and probably refers to high resolution uniparental markers, like mtDNA lineages inferred from mito-genomes.”
We have mtDNA H5 in Kujawy from 4500 BC
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0118316#pone-0118316-t001
It is well justified now to presume that mtDNA H5a1 developed in that area from a Neolithic farmer H5 haplotype and migrated to the Baltics during the Corded Ware.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/baltic-corded-ware-rich-in-r1a-z645.html?showComment=1488537435683#c2361904565646502138
We have H5a1 in Pamirs which came from Andronovo culture:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/12/descendants-of-ancient-european-fair.html?showComment=1512158992806#c3093765858090607319
Kujawy was at the border of Indigenous Mesolithic groups and farmers:
https://i.postimg.cc/htLTMMg8/screenshot-502.png
So it is quite possible that some mixing WHG-EEF occurred there and survived until modern times because Slavs are descendent from Corded Ware.
They probably have much more data about it.
I see nothing nationalistic about it if it is true. It happened in other places too, not only in Poland.
@urki-"Genocides are not a modern invention"
It seems that our ancestors R1b-P312/Df27 were specialists in genocides - First the Iberian Neolithic farmers, then the Moors of Granada, then the Native Americans etc ..
Everything is very debatable, but with respect to the Moors, they caused great damage, death and destruction in the Christian kingdoms for centuries. I guess that will also be a genocide-
I believe that the Moors simply took what they deserved
Is there any Bell Beaker in Mycenaeans? Apparently Bell Beakers were in Greece around 2200-2000 BC:
“Bell Beaker margins include parts of eastern Poland, Moldova and Romania, as well as Malta in the south. Major diagnostic elements are the wristguards, or their imitations in bone and clay…. Surprisingly perhaps, one can argue that these Beaker margins also reached as far as the Early Bronze Age core, namely to Greece, Crete and the Aegean (Fig. 29). This European southeast has only recently come into the focus of the Beaker research (Heyd 2007b; Maran 2007; Rahmstorf 2008). Beside conspicuous pottery evidence from Olympia, it is again the wristguards that form the majority of the diagnostic Beaker elements.
As a result of this recent interest, more wristguards, both the broader four-holed and the oblong-narrow two-holed, are now known from the Aegean than from the whole of Italy, for example. Whilst the Cretan and Trojan specimens cannot be attributed to a specific period within the wider Early and Middle Bronze Age, the five wristguards from Lerna in the Argolid and the three plates from Kolonna on Aegina come from secure contexts (Ramstorf 2008). They almost all date to Early Helladic III levels (as does the pottery evidence from Olympia), thus after 2200 BC in absolute terms. This makes them late Beaker, as compared to the central and western European examples. The best explanation for the relatively late appearance of these Aegean wristguards, and other Bell Beaker related finds, lies with further Adriatic pottery of the Dalmatian Cetina [culture] that also reached the Peloponnese in the later third millennium BC. Joseph Maran has described their background and context in detail (e.g., 1998), and he is surely right in seeing at work a migratory event, bringing Early Bronze Age Adriatic people incrementally to southern Greece for some decades from the transition of early Helladic II to III. And since early Cetina is one of those syncretistic Bell Beaker cultures of its southeastern periphery as shown above, this best explains the manifestation of these Bell Beaker package elements deep in southeastern Europe.”
V. Heyd, 'Europe at the Dawn of the Bronze Age' (2013)
https://www.academia.edu/5429585/_2013_V._Heyd_Europe_at_the_Dawn_of_the_Bronze_Age._In_Transition_to_the_Bronze_Age._Ed._by_V._Heyd_G._Kulcs%C3%A1r_and_V._Szever%C3%A9nyi._Archaeolingua_Main_Series_30_Budapest_Archaeolingua_p._9-66
Sure there’s broad autosomal continuity in Poland, even to Mesolithic
Otherwise it’s characterised by dynamic shifts and changes
@Davidski
"Both the Etruscans and early Italic speakers from Central Italy basically look like a two-way mix between Neolithic farmers and Central European Bell Beakers."
I know you wrote earlier you dont have any information regarding the y-dna haplogroups of the Etruscan and early Italic unpublished samples. But, what percentage of y-dna would you think the "Neolithic farmer" component could consist of among them?
Also, you wrote earlier that the Etruscan and early Italic unpublished samples were closer to "Italian and Iberian Bell Beakers", but now you are mentioning the "Central European Bell Beakers", to which were they closer to?
The Mycenaeans also had a Steppe ancestry up to 4-16%, and a 62–86% of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. This is similar to the 0-30% of Steppe ancestry and 70-100% Neolithic European Farmer ancestry among the North-Italian/Sicilian and Iberian Bell Beakers.
In the case of the Mycenaeans, Steppe ancestry was found, but no Steppe y-dna haplogroups were found. Could it be that the Etruscan and early Italic unpublished samples will show a similar result?
@Suyindik
the Mycenaean samples can be modelled as having 21% Sintashta type ancestry.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/08/steppe-admixture-in-mycenaeans.html?m=1
@ Davidski
high resolution uniparental markers, like mtDNA lineages inferred from mito-genomes.
Or maybe specific autosomal signals (IBD, etc.). After all two CWC samples from their recent study show "Balto-Slavic drift":
Corded_Ware_POL:N47
Corded_Ware_CZE 30.95%
POL_Globular_Amphora 22.2%
Baltic_LVA_MN 20.25%
Baltic_EST_BA 19.65%
Corded_Ware_CZE_o 5.6%
Baltic_LTU_Narva 0.8%
POL_BKG_N_o1 0.5%
Yamnaya_UKR 0.05%
Corded_Ware_Baltic 0%
Corded_Ware_Baltic_early 0%
Corded_Ware_DEU 0%
Corded_Ware_DEU_o 0%
Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL 0%
POL_BKG_N 0%
POL_BKG_N_o2 0%
POL_TRB 0%
Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia 0%
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0%
Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o 0%
RUS_Progress_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Vonyuchka_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Khvalynsk_En 0%
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 0%
Baltic_LTU_Mesolithic 0%
Baltic_LVA_BA 0%
Baltic_LVA_HG 0%
Baltic_EST_Comb_Ceramic_low_res 0%
Baltic_EST_Narva 0%
Distance 2.2907%
Corded_Ware_POL:N49
Baltic_EST_BA 25.05%
Yamnaya_UKR 18.65%
Corded_Ware_CZE_o 15.2%
Corded_Ware_DEU_o 10.8%
Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia 10%
Baltic_LVA_MN 7.75%
POL_BKG_N_o1 6%
POL_Globular_Amphora 3.7%
Corded_Ware_CZE 1.5%
Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL 1.35%
Corded_Ware_Baltic 0%
Corded_Ware_Baltic_early 0%
Corded_Ware_DEU 0%
POL_BKG_N 0%
POL_BKG_N_o2 0%
POL_TRB 0%
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0%
Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o 0%
RUS_Progress_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Vonyuchka_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Khvalynsk_En 0%
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 0%
Baltic_LTU_Mesolithic 0%
Baltic_LTU_Narva 0%
Baltic_LVA_BA 0%
Baltic_LVA_HG 0%
Baltic_EST_Comb_Ceramic_low_res 0%
Baltic_EST_Narva 0%
Distance 1.6952%
Also... doesn't Wielbark show at least partial continuity with previous cultures in terms of Y-DNA?
@ rozenfag
Without data, it's pointless to talk about continuity/discontinuity.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33067-w
G25 results you can see above.
If anyone's interested I found a study by J.L. Angel on skeletons from the Shaft Graves at Mycenae. The study wasn't available anywhere online and was kind of hard to find for some reason:
'Human skeletons from grave circles at Mycenae'
https://www.docdroid.net/WPUFSZZ/1.pdf
@ Juan
''Mycenaean models consinstently show 14.17% Yamnaya_(Samara/Ukraine) or ~19% Yamnaya_Bulgaria. ''
That's not correct, or it is only if you artificially restrict the model to only include ''old Anatolian'' ancestry offset against steppe.
But if you include more proximal sourcing, with already present sources of HG- & eastern shift, the steppe figure drops precipitiously
Mycenaean
Anatolia_EBA:MA2212 52.9%
Czech_MN:I4894 32.8%
Yamnaya_Samara 7.7%
Baden_LCA 6.6%
Corded_Ware_Baltic_early 0%
Baltic_LTU_Narva 0%
Distance 2.123%
Individually, steppe admixture peaks in I9033 at 15%. So far, all the others have much less
Might be that the Neolithic Farmers contributed more in terms of ancestry that was thought possible?
They didn’t say anything about WHG, only that it was reaching back to 7,500 years ago, to the FIRST FARMERS.
@Andrzejewski
"It seems that we are dealing with an interesting genetic continuation in the population living in Kujawy from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century. The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic" - the scientist suggests.
Where’s the rest of their ancestry cake from? Your numbers don’t add up
It would be cool to find M458 in Bronze Age Poland
David you should have put a warning label on this post. Continuation from the Mesolithic is going to be very limited. There's hungaryba ancestry in Poland which is Rich in local Mesolithic ancestry but still represents a minority of total ancestry. Plus there's no way a hungaryba-like poo survived after Slavic settlement in 500ad.
@Samuel Andrews ". Plus there's no way a hungaryba-like poo survived after Slavic settlement in 500ad."
Why not?
@Sam BTW I was missing your input on the previous blog post: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/06/they-came-they-saw-and-they-mixed.html
@Andre, because Polish are a very homogenous group & are basically 100% Slavic. So I doubt some Poles in the Middle ages had no Slavic ancestry & were entirelly HungaryBA-like.
Does this suggest that R1b did not travel via Central Poland towards the West ? So either via a Northern or a Southern Route ?
@Ric
Poland_Chopice_Vesele_Culture I6531, 2287-2039 calBCE, R1a1a
Poland_Chopice_Vesele_Culture I6537, 2291-2042 calBCE, R1b1a1a2a1a
@ Davidski
Aah...Thank you.
@Samuel Andrews Let me understand how the Steppe ancestry more or less spread: You think that Progress_Eneolithic (or Piedmont_Enelolithic) was the starting point to the pre-PIE nucleus. It was to the foothills of the Caucasus mountains and therefore being rich in CHG-like admixture. This group moved up north in two fork-like directions, pincer-wise: up towards Samara Culture, where they were sort of instrumental into transforming it into Khvalynsk, with brand new R1b, distinct from those of Samara HG's on the horizon. Simultaneously other Piedmont (or Progress) groups moved into Ukraine and assimilated its forager population to create Sredny Stog II.
Yamnaya interacted but eventually extinguished C-T Culture, but when the Kurgan populations moved westbound they interacted with the CAG and TRB-like groups in Poland to create CWC. It was originally 75% Steppe, 25% EEF (initially rich in Ertebolle, Baltic HG and Ukraine HG WHG forager). That created the Balto-Slav and Indo-Iranic Satem language families. Then one offshoot of the CWC, called Single Grave moved even further west and interacted with Dutch TRB-like Neolithic farmers to dilute Indo-European signal further reducing it from 75% to 50%. They were the Bell Beaker, mostly R1b like Yamnaya and not R1a1 like Sredny Stog or Corded Ware. These Bell Beakers spread over Western Europe, exterminating farmer or forager groups in the process instead of admixing with them (as did CWC or Single Grave). Bell Beaker were a homogenous group and then later on they also spread from Northern Holland all the way to the Carpathian mountains and formed the Hungary_BA Beakers, eventually admixing with Yamnaya Hungary.
So basically all modern IE speakers (plus Basques and historical Etruscans) were created with Yamnaya fusing with GAC, whereas the Beakers (and most Western Europeans) also have an additional farmer signature from the Northern Rhine region.
How far off the mark am I?
Mesolith appears here, most likely due to the N22 sample, which is chronologically neolithic but genetically mesolithic.
Arza, 20-25% of the Balto-Slavic drift is just what the Poles have on average today.
David, have you seen samples from Przeworsk before? Can you say something about them.
@ Andrzejewski
It would be interesting if you would also explain us
1-Why the uniparental markers of the CWC do not match those of the Yamna culture?
2- What is the origin culture of R1b-L51 / P312
3-How R1b arrived at the SGC and the process of mixing with TRB
4-the evidence of the extermination of Western Neolithic farmers
5-the reason for the different percentages of the so-called steppe signal in the BBS
6-which are the proofs that the Basques and the Etruscans are a mixture of Yamnaya and GAC
@ambron
I've only seen the results for a couple of very low coverage Wielbark samples, and I don't know what to make of them.
@Gaska
Why the uniparental markers of the CWC do not match those of the Yamna culture?
There's a post and discussion about that here...
Corded Ware as an offshoot of Hungarian Yamnaya (Anthony 2017)
So then basically people who became the SGC migrated down the Elbe River to the North from somewhere near Southern Poland, Czechia and Slovakia...
This looks like basically the same route as the spread of MtDNA Haplogroup U5a1b from the East.
'The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic" - the scientist suggests.'
Yes of course like many North Europeans, I have a TRB component too.....
Or did they find a population with only TRB/GAC and without Steppe/ Yamna component!? How big is that chance. Some 'Asterix Poles' that resisted the CW influx completely? ;)
I guess no reason to delete the Corded influence or does it David?
I agree wit A.
'Yamnaya interacted but eventually extinguished C-T Culture, but when the Kurgan populations moved westbound they interacted with the CAG and TRB-like groups in Poland to create CWC. It was originally 75% Steppe, 25% EEF (initially rich in Ertebolle, Baltic HG and Ukraine HG WHG forager). That created the Balto-Slav and Indo-Iranic Satem language families. Then one offshoot of the CWC, called Single Grave moved even further west and interacted with Dutch TRB-like Neolithic farmers to dilute Indo-European signal further reducing it from 75% to 50%. They were the Bell Beaker, mostly R1b like Yamnaya and not R1a1 like Sredny Stog or Corded Ware. These Bell Beakers spread over Western Europe, exterminating farmer or forager groups in the process instead of admixing with them (as did CWC or Single Grave). Bell Beaker were a homogenous group and then later on they also spread from Northern Holland all the way to the Carpathian mountains and formed the Hungary_BA Beakers, eventually admixing with Yamnaya Hungary.'
Reason to reverse this Davidski?
@Davidski
Andrei said "Yamnaya interacted but eventually extinguished C-T Culture, but when the Kurgan populations moved westbound they interacted with the CAG and TRB-like groups in Poland to create CWC"
I may have misinterpreted Andrzejewski's words, but I understood that he said that the Yamnaya culture is the origin of CWC- That's why I was telling him to explain why uniparental markers do not coincide- If he was saying that another culture of the steppes like for example Sredni-Stog, is the origin of CWC, so I agree that it is a credible theory, but not Yamnaya culture, because after these hypothetical migrations we do not see R1a again in the steppes.
In any case, a migration in the IV millennium has its problems, because in theory, there is no steppe signal in mainland Europe before the CWC and this culture began at around 2,900 BC, then or we found steppe between 4,000-3,000 BC in Central Europe, or the CWC descends from Yamnaya which is the only existing culture in the steppes between 3,300-.2400 BC and what happens is that R1a is hidden somewhere-
You do not think that a migration of R1a from SS had to produce the expansion of the steppe ancestry for Europe in the IV Millennium - What is failing in this model?
Who is hiding R1a in Yamnaya or the steppe signal in European Neolithic cultures?
@Gaska
But Sredny-Stog was eliminated by Yamna.Even if the Corded-Ware culture was from Ukrainia, it still has migrated from the Yamna territory.
Remember, no ethnic group bear just one haplogroup.CWC may have been established by the spread of a majority R1a tribe in depopulated areas due to epidemics/wars.
David, thanks! Let's wait for new samples to appear. Maybe they will have better coverage.
@Andre,
"So basically all modern IE speakers (plus Basques and historical Etruscans) were created with Yamnaya fusing with GAC, whereas the Beakers (and most Western Europeans) also have an additional farmer signature from the Northern Rhine region."
That's it.
@ Mem
Okay, but I do not understand where you want to go
Do you think that the CWC originated in the Yamnaya culture?
When do you think the steppe signal arrived in central Europe?
@Andrei-"So basically all modern IE speakers (plus Basques and historical Etruscans) were created with Yamnaya fusing with GAC, whereas the Beakers (and most Western Europeans) also have an additional farmer signature from the Northern Rhine region."
@Sam-"That's it"
So-Yamnaya + GAC-IE speakers-And, the BBs in France, Switzerland, Italy, Iberia, Sicily etc are a mixture of Yamnaya + GAc + Northern Rhine Neolithic farmers?
I think you have no idea what BB culture was - you only need to check the Mit Haps of the BBs that have been analyzed so far to understand that what you are saying does not make any sense
The Basques (and the rest of Spaniards) are direct descendants of the Iberian Bbs and never spoke Indo-European languages (until Lusitanian and Celtiberian Iberia in the Iron Age). I believe that the genetic continuity in Iberia has made this clear enough. Regarding the Etruscans, we don't know its origin, but we know that they spoke a non-IE language, if they were direct descendants of the Central European BBs (R1b-P312-U152, or some other sub-clade of P312) then not only did Df27 never speak an IE language, neither would they made other branches of P312 and linking this haplogroup with IE and the steppes would definitely be debunked-
On second thought let's wait for the results, The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic" is adjustable everywhere....
In their claim for continuity there is some bias, because I saw that the mennonites were settling there in the 17th century, obviously not taken in account.
See that fact I think they have exaggerated the continuity. But let's see!
"So basically all modern IE speakers (plus Basques and historical Etruscans) were created with Yamnaya fusing with GAC, whereas the Beakers (and most Western Europeans) also have an additional farmer signature from the Northern Rhine region."
The mixing of steppe and farmers began already on the steppe as early as the second half of the Vth millennium. Some proto balto-slavic and indo-iranians started being made up of some 50% farmers signal. This farmer signal closely resembles a GAC one ( WHG enriched EEF). Then when a SS like population moved west diluited its EEF by mixing with EHG somewhere proobably in belarussia and baltic. You are right Gaska, I missed that when Yamna comes in all the R1a in the steppe disappear, another proof that SS is the origin of CWC.
As for R1b L-51 this probably was a clan that lived in the western steppe and was ( like its R1a buddies) chased west by incoming R1b Z103 rich Yamnaya clans that started to storm the steppe moving from a location near the Volga Don region. I have the feeling that when this R1b L-51 moved outside the steppe was alredy a combination of 50 EEF and 50 steppe. But it could probably be also a clan that moved west travelling inside the CWC complex. We'll see.
Where did the U5a1b at Zvejnieki (Corded Ware) come from ? From Southern Poland down the Vistula River or straight from Derievka up the Dnieper River ?
So Etruscans had a lot off steppe ancestry and Romans are shifted toward West Asia. Lol.
Etruscans didn't show any connection to Anatolian IE languages so their origins from Lydia was a politically motivated claim by Greeks.
For the same linguistic reasons it is impossible to link Etruscan with BB. It is impossible to link Basque with BB because there is no single evidence of direct contact of Basque with Etruscan. But it is possible to link Basque with Nuragic who had no steppe ancestry. Etc etc.
Genetics can't defeat linguistics.
@mono
Etruscans are basically identical to early Italic speakers.
And Romans are shifted towards the eastern Mediterranean, including the Levant, compared to the early Italic speakers.
Mono
It’s not really a match; as linguistics isn’t a science
Without r archeogenetics, historical linguistics is just air . Archeogenetics will properly decipher who came from where, how they identified and what power structures exist ....
So did I2a Males persist in Central Poland and adopt the Corded Ware Culture. Or did the Corded Ware Culture originate due to Steppe (Sredny Stog 2-Yamnaya like) migration into GAC territory ? The U5b2a2 seems to be one of the Mesolithic remnant Motherlines in Poland and maybe Germany. So Steppe Men interacting with GAC Women in Southern Poland ?
@ OE
“The mixing of steppe and farmers began already on the steppe as early as the second half of the Vth millennium”
And it continued into Bronze Age
If Romans and Greeks turn out R1-poor; then the only viable angle is very watered down steppe hypothesis; something very different to that angle being militantly pushed by the current Echo chamber
Roman Y-halogroups will be from all over the place, judging by how the Romans plot in a PCA of West Eurasia. Some of them are deep in the Middle East.
The early Italic Y-haplogroups are the ones that will count in the context of the Indo-Europeanization of the Italian Peninsula.
@Old Europe
Regarding the origin of L51 I have heard all kinds of opinions in recent years
1- Ultra-Kurganists still think that they will find it in the Yamnaya culture (3,300-2,600 BC), or perhaps in some previous culture of the steppes
2- Moderate Kurganists who have understood that in Yamnaya they will never find this haplogroup think that they may be in some subculture related to Yamnaya, in Hungary (Carpathian Basin ....)
3- It can be in the Baltic countries as a descendant of the Latvian hunter-gatherers of the Kunda and Narva cultures
4-It is hidden in some region of the Balkans (Romania, Serbia)
5-You have come to mention the Cerdanová culture as a possible option
6-R1b-M269/L51 could have originated in the Near East or Anatolia
7-Origin in northern Italy
8-Possible link with metallurgy and its relationship with the culture of Los Millares
9-It could be related to the Western Megalithic culture
10-It could be hidden in the CWC-SGC
11- Neolithic German/French cultures
12-Renish Area
Does anyone have any other option?
I believe that this data must also be taken into account
1-CWC and Yamnaya (Danubian or not) seem to both be non-L51.
2- Brachicephaly-L51
3-Where are the oldest subclades of L51?
4-Where are its descendants P312 and U106?
@ Gaska
From Lublin (Eastern Poland)....
@ Davidski
We know Italy must have attracted people far and wide, but I have felt that the impact of northern migrations have tended to be underestimated in Italy . Celts ; Goths; Not to mention the industrialisation and more rapid growth of the north in modern Italy.
From what I saw in one of the abstracts; it seemed there was a gap in sampling in arguably the most important period - MLBA
There are two papers on ancient Italy coming soon.
I don't know about gaps in sampling, but one of the papers covers the Bronze Age, Iron Age, and various Roman periods, and also has samples from Pompeii.
The Iron Age samples, both the Italic speakers and Etruscans, cluster along a North Europe > Early farmer cline made up of Early Bronze Age samples, exactly as if they were their descendants.
That’s interesting but I wouldn’t be surprised if much of that cline isn’t a simple matter of steppe + local EEF; but rather something entailing the arrival of something with such admixture, eg from west Balkans.
@Davidski
But considering the y-haplogroups of this "North Europe > Early farmer cline", are the y-haplogroups also divided into 75%-25% just like in the North Italian, Sicilian and Iberian Bell Beakers? Or is it(the y-haplogroups + autosomal data) similar to the Mycenaean genetic structure? Would the Early farmer ancestry imply an Etruscan origin? And the Central European Bell Beaker ancestry implies an Italic origin?
@Suyindik
Unfortunately, I don't have that information, but I'd be very surprised if the Italic samples didn't show any U152.
And therefore most Western Europeans look more gracile and with a more elongated skull shape but Eastern Europeans tend to have a more broad face, an inheritance from various forager groups?
Yes but the Yamnaya admixed mostly with Cucuteni Tripolye 7,000 years ago, which is also rich in WHG but had different mdDNA markers like HV and others which were lacking in GAC.
It’s amazing how a process of homogenization took place over the last 1,000 years, whereby all the Visigoth outliers, for example the mtDNA C4e disappeared, Moors got kicked out of Spain (I have always assumed that they were a small ruling elite anyway), Jews intermarried with Europeans, Turks and other invaders got repelled, and in addition various “exotic” markers (like that C4f mtDNA in Western Russia which existed for 7,000 years prior to the Slavic expansion) got extinguished completely, and therefore it seems as though the European population resembles each other throughout the continent.
@Davidski Is contemporary Italian population still “Eastern med shifted” like the Romans? From what I read they are more shifted towards Central Europeans compared to the Romans?
@Andrzejewski 'And therefore most Western Europeans look more gracile and with a more elongated skull shape but Eastern Europeans tend to have a more broad face, an inheritance from various forager groups?'
I think you jump to conclusions fare too early. The researchers haven't qualified anything yet. Of course there is in some way continuity, in my case the genetic profile fits in Nordic LNBA so talking about continuity....the influence of the foragers (Ertebölle component in TRB) is also there.
But these part of Poland wasn't isolated.....for example the mennonites had a severe influence on that area.
Until they really publish something it's only guessing. Isn't 't LukaszM situated in that area (Torun)?
@Gaska said
"Okay, but I do not understand where you want to go
Do you think that the CWC originated in the Yamnaya culture?
When do you think the steppe signal arrived in central Europe?"
1-)Yes,I think CWC originated from Yamna.There was only Yamna which had steppe DNA.Other regions in Europe such as Baltic,Central,Western did not have steppe DNA before CWC. Apperently The only logical root for CWC is Yamna(If there was not space stepper).
2-)Steppe signal arrived Central Europe with CWC circa 2900BC and it was very sudden. Even latest GAC remains did not show any steppe DNA.
@Andrzejewski
Yes, modern Italians overlap with Romans, but Romans are shifted southeast, so that they also overlap strongly with Greeks and cluster as far south as Cypriots, with a few outliers deep in the Middle East.
when you say Romans, do you mean specifically the population of Rome, and also which period are you talking about?
Yes, the population of Rome. I'm not sure which periods are covered, but probably generally all periods.
@Mem
I suppose you'll have good arguments to think like that. You only need to explain
1-Why there is R1a in Alexandria (SStog) and not in Repin, Yamnaya etc
2-Why there is no R1a in the hypothetical migration routes followed by Yamnaya culture (Carpathian Basin, Hungary ..)
3-Why there is R1bZ2103 in Eastern Bbs and not R1a
One of the main arguments of people who do not have enough evidence to be able to demonstrate the theories they believe in, is to resort to "hidden haplogroups", or to "the lack of analyzed sites", or to "the deficient state of conservation of the genomes analyzed".
You may be right and the CWC originated in the Yamna culture, but the truth is that it does not make much sense. On the other hand, it is also true that no one has been able to explain why the famous steppe signal only appears with the CWC at 2,900 BC, so any possible previous migration must be ruled out-Maybe the problem is that steppe signal and how to quantify it. Perhaps too many geneticists are concerned with demonstrating preconceived theories and try to force comparisons using those samples they know can best fit their theories-I think that the only way to reliably demonstrate a migration is by demonstrating the genetic continuity of uniparental markers, however the autosomal components of a sample are unique to that particular individual, and will only tell us its origin, not that of its haplogroup or its culture
You can look at the Eastern BBs,
Szigetszenmiklós (Hungary)- Y-Chromosome- I2a1 (2.350 BC)- R1b-L11 (2.350 BC)- R1b-Z2103 (2.300 BC), I2a2a1 (2.306 BC), I2a2a 2.306 BC), Bekasmegyer -YChromosome-H2 (2.265 BC)-Budakalasz -G2a2a (2,430 BC)
Percentages of steppe ancestry-I3529 (44%), I3528-17%, I2364 (21%), I2365 (50%), I7045 (13%)--- etc...
Mit Haps- Some typical Iberian BBs, others clearly descendants of Hungarian, German or Czech neolithic cultures and some of the steppes-
And what is the conclusion drawn by many people? The Yamnaya culture gave rise to the Eastern Bbs and these spread BBc throughout Western Europe (mainly with R1b-P312). Is not it much more reasonable and intelligent to think that Hungarians BBs are a mix of German/ Czech/Iberian BBs, Hungarian Neolithic farmers and Yamnaya?
The percentage of steppe ancestry would not have to decrease as you move away from the main focus (Yamna)?, and yet we have the Dutch BB (50%) the English (70%), Iberians (15%) Sicilians (0%), Italians (barely 20%) etc-, that is to say in some cases, percentages much higher than the Hungarians. Everything is inexplicable except for the fanatics of the steppes-
And what appens with the CWC? 75% steppe signal and R1a (and even I2a) markers, Mit Haps mainly from the Central-European Neolithic cultures, and genetic continuity in Poland from the mesolithic???. is it not more reasonable to think that R1a was in Poland since the IV Millennium, and that therefore the steppe ancestry must have entered into mainland Europe long before the Yamnaya culture appeared?
It might be a problem of translation, but I am skeptical that Kujawy represents a Neolithic island in a sea of Corded Ware. Hopefully the scientists will release their data and we can see for ourselves.
One reads about a medieval phenotypical change in Germany too.
The height one for example. Iron age Germans beeing tall, medieval Germans beeing small and modern Germans beeing tall again.
heads turning brachycephalic and wide faced during the middle ages. The effect was turned around after the middle ages again.
The hair color became darker aswell.
So from dolchicephalic, narrow faced, blond and tall in the iron age/ early medieval to brachycephalic, wide faced, brown haired and small in the late medieval period.
And slowly back (Not fully) after the medieval age.
In that article I readed this, the interviewed scientist also claimed, the reason "is not fully understood yet". But denied "migration" beeing the reason and also denied a wide spread bio-racist theory about master and slave phenotypes (in a nutshell: Shapes like Nordid or Atlantid or Mediteranid. Long headed, narrow faced shapes, beeing the "master" shapes. While brachycephalic, wide faced types (like Alpinid or others) are "Slave" shapes. And that humans phenotypes develop into this type of shapes if their life conditions are poor or if they are opressed and enslaved.
Leading to phrases in Fantasy novels like: "Aristocratic face" or "Commoner face".
The scientist claimed, thats not the case. German aristocracy made the same shape shift as the commoner.
"Romans are shifted southeast, so that they also overlap strongly with Greeks and cluster as far south as Cypriots, with a few outliers deep in the Middle East."
Sounds like the imperial period.
It's blatantly obvious from the ancient DNA data of modern and ancient poles that the amount of incoming population including large scale male sex bias, far exceeds that in South Asia. To claim continuity since the Mesolithic is hilarious. Did you really expect them to do an unbiased analysis?
The correlation between human height and nutrition at an early age is well documented.
See a USNIH paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4892290/
@Davidski "Both the Etruscans and early Italic speakers from Central Italy basically look like a two-way mix between Neolithic farmers and Central European Bell Beakers."
What are we to make of that in terms of inferring linguistics from genetics, since we know from attested historical evidence that Etruscans were not linguistically Indo-European, while Italic speakers were?
"The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic' - the scientist suggests."
I think they are suggesting that modern Poles are mostly descended from the Corded Ware (Neolithic) and contemporary cultures, keeping in mind that Kujawy is one of the earliest CW sites.
They go further to suggest 'Earliest Neolithic' which isn't a lie either, since farmer groups in this region were key to the formation of the first Corded Ware which seems to have spanned Western Ukraine to Central Poland.
Mesolithic? Nope. I can tell you they may have a couple of new spear-chuckers that are R1-whatever, but that's not evidence of continuity, especially when it doesn't exist archaeologically.
No big surprises it seems.
@ Gaska
“”One of the main arguments of people who do not have enough evidence to be able to demonstrate the theories they believe in, is to resort to "hidden haplogroups", or to "the lack of analyzed sites", or to "the deficient state of conservation of the genomes analyzed".
But that’s exactly what you do for Iberia - the hidden R1b in those “most ancient” BB sites
@ BBB
“Mesolithic? Nope. I can tell you they may have a couple of new spear-chuckers that are R1-whatever, but that's not evidence of continuity, especially when it doesn't exist archaeologically”
Well there actually is a long Mesolithic in Poland , might have lasted until M3 (eg Neman culture)
These groups might have been partly absorbed with Bronze Age groups
But the idea of direct continuity is highly difficult to maintain .
Even the statement - Poles descend from cwc needs sever qualification; and is wrong if taken at face value : Poles have high CWC ancestry but this might not be from Polish CWC but further east
The areas of greatest “continuity” are in the edges of Europe. Atlantic; east Baltic and Sardinia; however even these have had change- small scale movements and cultural shifts.
Claims of continuity need to be temprered - even by academics who claim that Celtic must have arrived in Ireland c 2500 BC. A pretty dubious position
Wonder if this has got something to do with Hunter Gatherer Genetic bounce back ?
It almost seems as if some researchers want to paint Steppe people as uncompromising Barbarians. Maybe this proves that they did not just exterminate all that their eyes could see but rather handled each situation according to the needs of the day....
@Dragos,
Good point on the Mesolithic, and I'd agree that linear continuity is a difficult position when the next sentence argues for microevolution. It's probably complicated, as always.
With proposed continuity in some parts of Scandinavia since the Late Neolithic and the possible start of the evolution of Germanic, is it not possible that this could have happened in some other places as well ? Cultural change without Genetic and maybe linguistic change in some. Cultural, Genetic and Linguistic change in others...etc.
A handful of Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, Hungary Bronze age samples have a large chunk of local central European HG ancestry which somehow survived the Neolithic & Bronze age.
So, there were pockets in central/eastern Europe where there was a 'high degree' of continuation since the Mesolithic.
It is possible this was the case in Poland till 500ad, when Slavs arrived. The point I made before is is unlikely these pockets survived after Slavs came & took over eastern Europe.
@Gaska
"I suppose you'll have good arguments to think like that. You only need to explain
1-Why there is R1a in Alexandria (SStog) and not in Repin, Yamnaya etc
2-Why there is no R1a in the hypothetical migration routes followed by Yamnaya culture (Carpathian Basin, Hungary ..)
3-Why there is R1bZ2103 in Eastern Bbs and not R1a"
1-)The answer of the this question is actually hidden in the question.Yes, we have found an example of R1a in SS culture, and this example is the ancestor of modern R1a branches itself.If Yamna had killed all the natives when it moved to Ukraine, this R1a would not have continued its descendants.However, we see that R1a survived and it was one of the main column of cultures(and certainly in Yamna) derived from Yamna.
2-)As far as I know, the remains of the possible Yamna migration routes in the Carpathia were very little investigated.We have to wait for new work to understand the region better.
3-)The early results from Bell Beaker culture showed that this culture consisted entirely of R1b males.Both these results and previous analysis of CWC led to the idea that steppe nomads destroyed the entire farmer male race. But the remains of eastern BB, as you wrote, carry farmer haplogrups like G2a and H2, which are thought to have disappeared. Why couldn't R1a be found?
"The percentage of steppe ancestry would not have to decrease as you move away from the main focus (Yamna)?, and yet we have the Dutch BB (50%) the English (70%), Iberians (15%) Sicilians (0%), Italians (barely 20%) etc-, that is to say in some cases, percentages much higher than the Hungarians."
But dutch(or east of Rhine) conquered by CWC in early third millenium BC and there was great population decrease just before or during the BB migration to England.Those two zones were strongly depopulated when steppe migrant arrived.Bur Spain,Italy and Med islands had big population density and steppe migration to those lands happened lately compared to North Europe.So,dilutation of Yamna ancestry from north to south axis is to be expected.
"is it not more reasonable to think that R1a was in Poland since the IV Millennium, and that therefore the steppe ancestry must have entered into mainland Europe long before the Yamnaya culture appeared?"
There are no evidences for steppe ancestry background beyond Pontic-Caspian steppe.So this argument of steppe presence before CWC-Yamna is not valid.
Samuel, everything is likely when you reject the erroneous theory of Kossinna that the Slavs came from Pripyat. Genetic continuity is not a genetic resemblance, only the long common IBD segments, for example.
it may not be relevant to this particular case but a list of "Kujawy" villages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kujawy_(disambiguation)
mentions one of them is/was a salt mine
and this made me wonder if, given the historical examples of specific artisanal groups being spared massacre after an invasion, there might occasionally be very localized examples of extreme continuity on sites around ancient salt mines?
a general thought not specifically about this site.
Dragos, rather, the populations further east come from the Polish CWC from Kujawy:
Corded_Ware_POL:N47
Corded_Ware_CZE 30.95%
POL_Globular_Amphora 22.2%
Baltic_LVA_MN 20.25%
Baltic_EST_BA 19.65%
Corded_Ware_CZE_o 5.6%
Baltic_LTU_Narva 0.8%
POL_BKG_N_o1 0.5%
Yamnaya_UKR 0.05%
Corded_Ware_Baltic 0%
Corded_Ware_Baltic_early 0%
Corded_Ware_DEU 0%
Corded_Ware_DEU_o 0%
Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL 0%
POL_BKG_N 0%
POL_BKG_N_o2 0%
POL_TRB 0%
Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia 0%
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0%
Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o 0%
RUS_Progress_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Vonyuchka_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Khvalynsk_En 0%
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 0%
Baltic_LTU_Mesolithic 0%
Baltic_LVA_BA 0%
Baltic_LVA_HG 0%
Baltic_EST_Comb_Ceramic_low_res 0%
Baltic_EST_Narva 0%
Distance 2.2907%
Corded_Ware_POL:N49
Baltic_EST_BA 25.05%
Yamnaya_UKR 18.65%
Corded_Ware_CZE_o 15.2%
Corded_Ware_DEU_o 10.8%
Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia 10%
Baltic_LVA_MN 7.75%
POL_BKG_N_o1 6%
POL_Globular_Amphora 3.7%
Corded_Ware_CZE 1.5%
Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL 1.35%
Corded_Ware_Baltic 0%
Corded_Ware_Baltic_early 0%
Corded_Ware_DEU 0%
POL_BKG_N 0%
POL_BKG_N_o2 0%
POL_TRB 0%
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0%
Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o 0%
RUS_Progress_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Vonyuchka_Eneolithic 0%
RUS_Khvalynsk_En 0%
SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 0%
Baltic_LTU_Mesolithic 0%
Baltic_LTU_Narva 0%
Baltic_LVA_BA 0%
Baltic_LVA_HG 0%
Baltic_EST_Comb_Ceramic_low_res 0%
Baltic_EST_Narva 0%
Distance 1.6952%
Pay attention to Baltic EST BA.
@ambron,
"Samuel, everything is likely when you reject the erroneous theory of Kossinna that the Slavs came from Pripyat. Genetic continuity is not a genetic resemblance, only the long common IBD segments, for example."
There weren't Slavic-like groups across eastern Europe before the Middle Ages because Slavs trace most of their origins to the Baltic Bronze age in Latvia, Lithuania.
@Samuel Andrews
“There weren't Slavic-like groups across eastern Europe before the Middle Ages because Slavs trace most of their origins to the Baltic Bronze age in Latvia, Lithuania.”
Corded Ware was definitely Slavic-like and the linguistic proof is in India.
Samuel, look at the models above. Baltic BA was in Poland long before the Middle Ages. N47 is located on PCA together with Baltic BA.
The adna record of Eastern Europe proper still has gaps, if we judge it by the standards of the Spanish transect (still pretty much the gold standard on that).
Doesn't the limited sampling suggests that there are quite a few samples that share Baltic_BA like drift (whatever this should mean) before the Middle Ages and by "Classical Antiquity" though? Late Hungary Bronze Age samples, Hungarian Iron Age Scythians, probably various of the Tollense people, possibly some others I can't remember?
@ Bell Beaker blogger
Yes that’s true; a matter of perspective. At a broad scale; most Europeans are largely descended from late paleolithic groups in or just near Europe
@ Ambron
“rather, the populations further east come from the Polish CWC from Kujawy:”
Yeah Trzciniec, the luzatian civilisation must have made impacts east. But I don’t think that excludes the possibility that some people moved into polish territories at later periods
@Fanty
"One reads about a medieval phenotypical change in Germany too."
Very interesting, do you remmeber what paper was it?
Just read the study, they are implying direct continuity from Mesolithic populations due to increased WHG contribution.
Both the male lineages and the autosomal profile make the local Corded group untypical and point to a very strong, rather local HG input, first overtake of local Neolithic women and communities, later mixture with incoming Corded Ware.
It sometimes happens that some tribals settle down and mix with locals, while others stick to their own and move on.
Those in Kujawy stayed and mixed, others moved on to Germany and Scandinavia. So the local Kujawy CWC is really local through the millennia.
Matt, for example model Hungary LBA (author: Arza):
HUN_LBA:I1504
POL_Globular_Amphora 49%
Baltic_LVA_BA 28.4%
Corded_Ware_CZE 22.6%
dist 2.5075
Hungary LBA is a very "Polish" population - very rich in Polish GAC, rich in Baltic BA and with the best IBD with Poles (Ralph, Cassidy).
Dragos, some people could come later from behind the eastern border of today's Poland (although there is nothing to indicate at this time) and give the margin of the Polish genome. The problem is that Kossinna and some modern archaeologists have claimed that in the Middle Ages there was total exchange of the Polish population to the eastern.
Couple of interesting archaeological papers from popular science aggregator today:
- https://phys.org/news/2019-06-neolithic-gender-inequality.html - "(In the Neolithic t)he arrow wounds on male bodies, the depositing of projectiles in their tombs or the pictorial representations (cave paintings) of men hunting and fighting have no equivalent parallel in women. Therefore, the authors point to the birth of an ideology that connected men with the exercise of force."
More megalithic / other burial practices of Neolithic Iberia pointing to non-gender egalitarianism. Though probably wrong in presenting this (gender inegalitarianism) as new to neolithic, as plenty work showing forms inegalitarianism (male political / war leadership etc) predominant in foraging and hunting groups.
- https://phys.org/news/2019-06-ancient-nomad-diets-coincides-expansion.html - "Dramatic change in ancient nomad diets coincides with expansion of networks across Eurasia" - Alicia R. Ventresca Miller et al: Intensification in pastoralist cereal use coincides with the expansion of trans-regional networks in the Eurasian Steppe
"Our research suggests that cultigens were converted from a rare luxury during the Bronze Age to a medium demarcating elite participation in political networks during the Iron Age" ... This timing coincides with the intensification of complex political structures at the transition to the Iron Age. Burgeoning socio-political confederations drove a marked increase in the exchange of costly prestige goods, which strengthened political networks—and facilitated the transfer of cultigens (e.g. wheat and millet).
Iron Age coincides with a shift towards cereal consumption among populations of steppe and forest steppe.
Fits with Alex Kim's report of same author's presentation from 2018 - https://twitter.com/amwkim/status/1042790639019147265 - "Against the narrative of “nomadism” – large fortified settlement complexes as urbanization in the forest-steppe and steppe. Only small component of these pops highly mobile (in range of early childhood to adolescence), w/ interesting dietary composition correlates. Ongoing turn in Eurasian steppe archaeology towards seeing many of the iconically Scythian expressions of personal & warrior prestige as “urban” affordances of overall perhaps rather non-mobile and agriculturally-committed societies concentrated in fortified centers.
Some of Iron Age groups moving west (possibly including FU groups?) may not have been that 'pastoralist'?
Exchange of crops between 2500 BCE to 1500 BCE (Bronze Age) - https://phys.org/news/2019-02-prehistoric-food-globalization-spanned-millennia.html - but perhaps iron tools allows major demographic expansion of millet and wheat farmers in Western Russia / Western steppe / Central steppe?
Exception to this pattern is the Eastern steppe... where Turkic, Hunnic and Mongolic groups explode from somewhat late in this period....
@Matt On the previous blog entry there were findings relating to the far-fetched well-traversed Steppe Ancestry all to way to Beringia and Chukchu-Katchmadalian Inuit-like groups. It's very interesting to realize how far Steppe groups (Afanasievo???) traveled and I wonder if the reason that Chukchi-Kamatchadal are considered "similar" to IE languages on the macro level have to do with some lexical transformation from PIE -> the latter, the same way Sintashta influenced Proto-Uralic.
RE: Kujawy: A few months ago I posted about the closeness of Polish aDNA to the actual PIEs based on the fact that not only are they descendants of the CWC (75% Steppe, 25% Neolithic Anatolians) vis-a-vis Western Europeans who pack a extra of TRB-like ancestry from the Northern Rhine (Bell Beaker descendants; 50% Steppe, 50% Anatolian ancestry), but also the fact that Polish, Ukraine, Lithuanian etc. have much more mtDNA contribution from the Steppe (a legacy of CHC groups actually) such as W6 and H5a1. Maybe we should take a look at these findings to reach the conclusion that Polish (and Slavic as a whole) cluster more closely on the PCA chart with the PIEs that Western Europeans in general?
On the other hand, what are the odds that Slavs pack more Steppe ancestry because of the R1a1 Scythians and Sarmatians previously roaming throughout now-Slavic lands?
@Andrzejewski
“Maybe we should take a look at these findings to reach the conclusion that Polish (and Slavic as a whole) cluster more closely on the PCA chart with the PIEs that Western Europeans in general?”
Could you show us PIE on PCA chart.
To me PIE is a puzzle, have no idea when, where and who.
This Italian ancient dna paper is going to be one spicy meat-a-ball!
A lot of people seem interested in France, which is still poorly sampled. However, I think we can predict some things:
''Whereas the populations of the traditional Atlantic cultures remain faithful to multiple consecutive tombs, the contemporaneous Bell Beakers re-introduce the single burial tradition. These burials are often located in the internal area of some ditched circular enclosures, the first occurrence of a type which will last until the end of the Last Iron Age. The central pit from La Folie enclosure in Poitiers (Vienne) contained a single individual with a Rhine-type AOO beaker and two debitage products (Tcheremissinoff et al. 2000) (fig.1). On the other hand, the double burial from Les Bouilloires at Saint-Martin-du-Fraigneau (Vendée) contained two male individuals, one with the traditional bellbeaker package (copper dagger and archer’s bracer), and the other with no preserved material (André 1998, 120) (fig. 2). This second grave raises the question of the relative status of the two deceased deposited in it and of the existence of social inequalities, maybe in terms of a socially dominant /accompanying dead relationship (Testard 2004)? Some Bell Beaker burials, for instance in Trizay (Charente-Maritime) or Thiré (Vendée), have yielded some tiny gold artefacts which herald those found in some Early Bronze Age barrows from Armorica or northern Aquitaine ''
A cultural shift occurs in the
Mod Bronze Age- as France is incorporated in the stimulus culture
From - Gomez de Soto
The Bronze Age in Atlantic France around 16oo B. C.
Are the Nivkh and the Ainu related?
Where did the Ainu come from then? I’m curious
Just to be on the same page: when you say “paleosiberian” you mean Ancient North Eurasian, right?
@Matt,
"In the Neolithic t)he arrow wounds on male bodies, the depositing of projectiles in their tombs or the pictorial representations (cave paintings) of men hunting and fighting have no equivalent parallel in women. Therefore, the authors point to the birth of an ideology that connected men with the exercise of force."
Lol. The relativism of archaeologists is annoying. They don't believe in any 'norms' in behavior informed by genes or norms because some forms of behavior are better than others. So, they do their best to say gender norms in behavior is a "style" beginning with the Neolithic or Bronze age or whatever era.
This statement reminds of a quote from the abstract on DNA from Lombard burials.....
"suggesting that biological relationships played an important role in these early medieval societies"
As if, they didn't already know this from historical records, modern European societies, and every other human society.
@JuanRivera "Kolyma1-like."
I hope @Davidski writes a blog about it. I know we touched on the Sikora 2018 subject a few months earlier but findings like these regarding Steppe ancestry all the way to Bering sea deserve their own post :)
How many people here now relegade the so-called "Indo-Uralic" theory obsolete, based on:
1. PU was formed around the time that Yamnaya's daughter Sintashta interacted with Fanyatovo-Beltyano and Volsovo Cultures. So PIE is much older than Proto-Uralic.
And:
2. Zero cognates other than Sintashta -> PU borrowings, including I assume words like "water" and "name".
Plus:
3. PIE formed way off to the west of PU.
There were massive population changes in Poland in the Slavic period - the last major observable Y expansion and heavily tied to embedded Ashkenazi expansion.
This is the trouble with the weak autosomal tools currently available - they don't show even the obvious as revealed by Y.
@Joe Flood
There were massive population changes in Poland in the Slavic period - the last major observable Y expansion and heavily tied to embedded Ashkenazi expansion.
Ashkenazi R1a isn't of the Slavic type. It's overwhelmingly of the Iranian type. In other words, from the Middle East.
Poles don't carry the Ashkenazi type of R1a, and very few Ashkenazi Jews carry the Polish type of R1a.
Ashkenazi Jews came to Poland well after the early Slavic period. They came when Poland was already the Polish state.
You're an idiot. Do some basic reading on the topic, like this for instance...
Near Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Levite R1a
By the way, Ashkenazi Jews are very easy to tell apart from Eastern Europeans with all sorts of tools using autosomal DNA. There's no ambiguity there at all.
Don't ever post here until you learn the basics you fool.
@Andrzejewski
What about the shared entire pronoun system? I'm not advocating for Indo-Uralic, but the connections are without a shred of doubt older than contacts with proto-indo-iranians.
I see you try and deny it often here, is there a reason perhaps youre so adamant about disconnecting them?
The pronouns of the so-called "micro-Altaic" (Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic) languages are also very similar to those of Uralic and Indo-European languages. Some pronouns in languages of some other populations in Eastern Siberia (Yukaghir, Chukchi, Koryak, Itelmen, Nivkh) are quite similar, too. This is not indicative of a
close genetic relationship between Uralic and IE languages in particular.
The language of the ANE and their descendants would be the likely candidate for a very ancient substrate shared among various language families. However, I don’t think it would be of much help using those very remote linguistic connections to track down population movements.
@Ebizur "The pronouns of the so-called "micro-Altaic" (Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic) languages are also very similar to those of Uralic and Indo-European languages. Some pronouns in languages of some other populations in Eastern Siberia (Yukaghir, Chukchi, Koryak, Itelmen, Nivkh) are quite similar, too. This is not indicative of a
close genetic relationship between Uralic and IE languages in particular."
I thought the "Altaic" macro-family was deemed "obsolete" for the last 40 years...
Who knows? Maybe there IS a validity to the "Ural-Altaic"/Turanic language family after all?
@Ebuzir
It may not be recent but some connection did exist. M.Pagal et al (2013) study suggests several languages spoken in Eurasia stem from common root, dating back to last Ice Age. They suggest these Ultraconserved words found in these languages emerged during Ice Age and still remain unchanged. Their timeline seems to correlate with spread of ANE hunter-gatherers post-LGM in my view.
It's an odd little speech. But if you went back 15,000 years and spoke these words to hunter-gatherers in Asia in any one of hundereds of modern languages, there is a chance they would understand at least some of what you were saying. That's because all of the nouns, verbs, ahjectives and adverbs in the four sentences are words that have descended largerly unchanged from a language that died out as the glaciers retreated at the end of the last Ice Age. Those few words mean the same thing, and sound almost the same, as they did then.
study : https://www.pnas.org/content/110/21/8471
wapo article: https://t.co/3QC4sPtOUF
@Matt @Ebizur @Leron "It may not be recent but some connection did exist. M.Pagal et al (2013) study suggests several languages spoken in Eurasia stem from common root, dating back to last Ice Age. They suggest these Ultraconserved words found in these languages emerged during Ice Age and still remain unchanged. Their timeline seems to correlate with spread of ANE hunter-gatherers post-LGM in my view.
It's an odd little speech. But if you went back 15,000 years and spoke these words to hunter-gatherers in Asia in any one of hundereds of modern languages, there is a chance they would understand at least some of what you were saying. That's because all of the nouns, verbs, ahjectives and adverbs in the four sentences are words that have descended largerly unchanged from a language that died out as the glaciers retreated at the end of the last Ice Age. Those few words mean the same thing, and sound almost the same, as they did then.
study : https://www.pnas.org/content/110/21/8471
wapo article: https://t.co/3QC4sPtOUF"
It makes sense because of the connections between Yeniseian and Na-Dene (now tentatively termed "Dene-Yeniseian") by Vaida, and also there was another Russian linguist who postulated relationships between Itelmem/Chukchi/Koryak and Algonkin languages in North America. So this ANE connection can span two continents. Furthermore, if linguistic connections can date back 24,000 years to MA1, it sure can be preserved in languages dating back "only" 15,000 years...
However, granted that Yamnaya was ~50% ANE from both its EHG and CHG parents, tracing back the PIE to either branch would be difficult at best.
I'm also not sure if eventually Botai and/or Okunevo are closer to PIE rather than to some distant Native American families. My pet peeve is to figure out if the Bug-Dniester or Dniester-Donets Ukraine HG who are probably ancestral to Sredny Stog and were likely mostly R1a1 spoke a language which was very close to (mostly) R1b clades of Samara HG, Khvalynsk and Progress (they were all R1a1, Q1a and R1b subclades, but the R1b dominates overwhelmingly as in Yamnaya!), or they were speaking a completely different language until they got subsumed by the Yamnaya westbound expansion from the Lower Don/Volga regions and switch their (unrelated) speech into PIE, influencing in the process the satemization thereof.
Archaeology suggests the wheel originated with Sredny Stog/ Cucuteni-Trypillia, not with Yamnaya.
They came from Europe. If I remember correctly some have the same Y-DNA Haplogroup as some Upper Paleolithic Western Europeans...
@Davidski
In case it interests you:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/radiocarbon/article/radiocarbon-ams-dating-of-mesolithic-human-remains-from-poland/425FEFBA3D9EC6CF66143AF5C1F4C15E
The recent PBS documntary on the first domestication of horses put focus on genetics of Botai & Yamnaya.
But they described Yamnaya as horse riding archers which they were not. Yamanay may have been the first to be successful at domesticating the horse but true mastery of horse riding warfare was done by descendants of Yamnaya in the Eurasian Steppe 2,000 years later. True cavalries were built by civilizations in the Middle East.
They describe Yamnaya as leaving a huge genetic legacy in both Europe & Asia. Which really isn't true, Yamnaya only has a sizable legacy in Europe.
23andme calls R1b Beaker folk as "traders" from Russia when really they were an ethnic group who pushed out/conquered other ethnic groups. They make a point to say R1b also went to central Asia to make R1b seem less European but Afanasievio left almost no legacy in Asia while on the other hand Beaker folk are most important ancestor of western Europeans.
I think, it'll take a long time for the "mainstream" to understand 'Yamnaya' was from Europe not from central Asia, that they had nothing in common with the later Turks & Mongols, that they were more than raiders/plunderers, and that genetically the only place they left a huge legacy is in Europe.
My estimate is.....
That the vast majority of Indians (not Dravidians) have about 15% Sintashta ancestry. Brahimns have 20-30%. Overwhelming majority of Indians' ancestry is from "Neolithic farmers". There wasn't a mass population turnover like in Europe.
Pathan of Aghanistan & handful of tiny Indo-Aryan minorities in Pakistan have about 30% Sintashat ancestry. Tajik have about 40-50%.
Throughout the Middle East, Sintashat ancestry doesn't get above 15%.
I'm pretty sure no Turkic-speaking people (who are diverse bunch) have more than 15% Sintashta. The only "Asian" people with more than 15% are probably Mansi/Khanty with 25-30% who live right at the border between Asia/Europe.
On the other hand, literally all Europeans except Sardinians have at least 25% Yamnaya ancestry. If you translate that to SIntashta/Corded Ware, it is about 33%. Central/Northern Europe has 40-50% Yamnaya. Southern Europe has 20-30% Yamnaya.
In the Iron age, most of central Asia had 30-50% Sintashta ancestry. But, the Turkic migrations changed this.
Those boofheads at 23andMe should read this and burn it into their brains...
Some myths die hard
OT. It confirms that soma/haoma had nothing to do with marijuana:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/06/oldest-evidence-marijuana-use-discovered-2500-year-old-cemetery-peaks-western-china
Rigveda was composed 1500 BC in India.
First intoxicating cannabis was burned 500 B.C. in Pamir.
!!!
Genome-Wide DNA from Degraded Petrous Bones and the Assessment of Sex and Probable Geographic Origins of Forensic Cases, Gaudio et al. 2019
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-44638-w
Despite all these limitations, our findings suggest that the otic capsule, and in particular the cochlea, is the preferable region of the human skeleton to obtain ancient DNA genomic data from burned remains. On the basis of all factors available (exterior surface of temporal bones, characteristics of the post cranial bones and conditions of the crime scenes), USM 4 is the subject that was exposed to the highest temperature (525–940 °C) while USM 2 was most likely exposed to the lowest (285–645 °C). Using the sampling strategy described here, in all three cases we obtained endogenous DNA that, in terms of authenticity and quality, is comparable to the non-burned individuals.
@ Sam
'' That the vast majority of Indians (not Dravidians) have about 15% Sintashta ancestry. Brahimns have 20-30%. Overwhelming majority of Indians' ancestry is from "Neolithic farmers". There wasn't a mass population turnover like in Europe. ”''
It's important to distinguish between overall genomic impact, versus uniparental impact, versus cultural impact. We need to understand all dimensions to draw correct conclusions
For example, In iberia steppe ancestry remained in relative minority; however, overall, steppe-derived societies made a huge impact there, evidenced by the uniparental turnover, and the fact that later Iberian groups culturally descend from Bell Beaker. In East Central Europe, steppe -derived CWC had more steppe ancestry than Beakers in the west, but did not whipe the slate, and instead were one of several more or less co-synchronous groups. Subsequent north European Bronze Age groups & modern north Europeans are ~ 50:50% MNE/ steppe (which speaks of a relative fusion of 2 broad sets of low -density societies).
In southeastern Europe, steppe ancestry remained culturally & genomically a minority; and would be lower still today if not for early medieval migrations
@Dragos,
Everything about what you said is true. Sheer genetic impact in modern pops isn't everything. I am just thinking Reich's team might become intellectually lazy by equating Steppe impact in Europe & Asia as being the same.
I was reading this article about "Ava" from the Scottish Highlands. The predecessor of William Wallace was a Bell Beaker immigrant from the Netherlands, or at least a "Caledonian" of a recent (2 generations back) "Dutch" Beaker.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/no-wait-real-ava-bronze-age-woman-scottish-highlands-180970950/
The focal point here is that unlike modern Scottish population (allegedly largely BB-derived), or even most Scottish BB or BB-at-large, her facial features plus pigmentation were very mediterranean-like. The article states that she looked very Spanish-like.
But the most interesting point there was that previous reconstructions rendered her very "Celtic"-looking: long face dolichocephalic, red haired, blue eyed; the most recent one, however, (in the article's photo) depicted her as a very Southern European, if not Middle Eastern looking.
I am pondering and mulling over whether other famous reconstructions: La Brana, Cheddar Man, Otzi the Iceman - were wrongly reconstructed.
@Sam I read another article that pointed out how the Anatolian farmers were not a homogenous bunch but actually were an agglomeration of small scale groups. Most farmers were y-G1a with a minority of T, J1, J2 or E1b1b. When it comes to mtDNA it's becoming even more complex and intricate, with mtDNA H of all its subclades, but also N1a1, T, W6 and others.
Would that imply that one of the reasons that prehistoric farmer (Cardial) Southern Europeans: Greeks, Italians and Spaniards tend to look more swarthy, dolichocephalic, short and gracile whereas on the other hand Otzi and other Central European pre-Steppe Farmers tended to look more Alpinic or broad faced? Or was it more dependent upon another factor, which was the level of WHG forager admixture, or the kind thereof?
@Mem said 1-If Yamna had killed all the natives when it moved to Ukraine, this R1a would not have continued its descendants.However, we see that R1a survived and it was one of the main column of cultures(and certainly in Yamna) derived from Yamna.
The serious theories are not defended with "Ifs" or "buts". The only certain thing is that at the moment there is no R1a in Yamnaya, then your theory is reduced to speculations
@Mem said 2-)As far as I know, the remains of the possible Yamna migration routes in the Carpathia were very little investigated.We have to wait for new work to understand the region better.
The same as always, "lack of samples analyzed". Ok, but then until you find what you're looking for, you'll agree that we're skeptical about the validity of that theory
3-)The early results from Bell Beaker culture showed that this culture consisted entirely of R1b males.Both these results and previous analysis of CWC led to the idea that steppe nomads destroyed the entire farmer male race. But the remains of eastern BB, as you wrote, carry farmer haplogrups like G2a and H2, which are thought to have disappeared. Why couldn't R1a be found?
Again, BB culture is a mixture of male haplogroups (there are I2a in England, Hungary and Spain) etc ...The nomads of the steppes came to the Hungarian plains and could no longer move forward, conquered nothing and destroyed nothing- There they met with Bbs from Germany and Moravia who migrated eastwards, it was they who stopped the expansion of Yamna-
You could find some outlier (R1a) coming from the CWC in any European region where the BBc was developed, but this has not only not been produced, but also it would not change things, that is to say the BB culture was an absolutely western culture
@Mem said "But dutch(or east of Rhine) conquered by CWC in early third millenium BC and there was great population decrease just before or during the BB migration to England.Those two zones were strongly depopulated when steppe migrant arrived.Bur Spain,Italy and Med islands had big population density and steppe migration to those lands happened lately compared to North Europe.So,dilutation of Yamna ancestry from north to south axis is to be expected"
The CWC did not conquer anything in Central/Western Europe
@Mem said-"There are no evidences for steppe ancestry background beyond Pontic-Caspian steppe. So this argument of steppe presence before CWC-Yamna is not valid"
Of course there is no evidence, and that is the strange thing, because, or the geneticists have not looked for that signal with due insistence or then R1a has to appear in Yamnaya. Something is wrong in the model of the mass migrations from the steppes, because R1b-P312 did not change the autosomal landscape of Western Europe by itself, needed R1a and probably also female migrations, otherwise the autosomal signal will surely be poorly identified or quantified-
Reich, Olalde and our friends from Harvard (2018) said very clearly that the responsible for bringing the steppe signal to the BBC was R1b-M269, and yet the R1b lineages of the Yamnaya culture have nothing to do with the Western lineages R1b-P312. How did the miracle occur? I hope they are able to find the solution
@Dragos said "But that’s exactly what you do for Iberia - the hidden R1b in those “most ancient” BB sites"
No my friend, in Iberia we already have R1b-P312 2,500 BC, and we are more than satisfied, we will continue searching because we have thousands of skeletons to analyze and to advance in the knowledge of the prehistory of our country, but we already have very clear how events developed
You are a supporter of an oriental origin of the BB culture, I recommend you read some interesting work about the BB culture in Portugal- In the Tagus estuary you can relate the evolution of Neolithic forms of ceramics (Copos) both in its decoration and in its forms with the Maritime style and its typical variants of the BB culture. We have no doubts about it and since we have proof of that cultural continuity we are calm and confident- We know where the BB culture originated and we look with astonishment but also with respect to the alternative theories that are being proposed. All of them have been debunked
You can review the "Pre-BB package" of the artificial caves of Quinta do Anjo (Palmela), which by the way has given its name to the famous spearheads points, or to Zambujal, Leceia, etc. In Spain, La Pijotilla deposit is 200 years prior to the Hungarians or Moravian deposits, so for now, any attempt to disassociate Iberia from the origin of the BB culture is simply a joke
@Andrei said "Would that imply that one of the reasons that prehistoric farmer (Cardial) Southern Europeans: Greeks, Italians and Spaniards tend to look more swarthy, dolichocephalic, short and gracile whereas on the other hand Otzi and other Central European pre-Steppe Farmers tended to look more Alpinic or broad faced? Or was it more dependent upon another factor, which was the level of WHG forager admixture, or the kind thereof?"
Sometimes I think you have no idea what you're talking about, other times I think it's very boring to listen to these children's reasoning, and sometimes I think it's not worth answering
All your obsession is to differentiate the Neolithic farmers of southern Europe from those of northern Europe, I suppose that will be a reaction to the disappointment of proving that Southern Europeans have the same male R1b-P312 lineage from their northern neighbors. I can recommend at least 40 papers that study the genetic composition of the European Neolithic - The conclusions are always the same - Not only do we have the same Anatolian origin, but the migrations and population movements were so abundant that France, Germany, Spain and the British islands share the majority of uniparental markers
I am sorry to disappoint you, but the Greeks are very, very, very similar to the Poles, I really do not think you are a superior race. Western civilization has its roots in Greek philosophy, Roman law and Catholic religion, Poles should be grateful to the Swarthy and dolicocephalic Mediterraneans who brought civilization to the barbarians of the North
Regarding your anthropological concerns (dolichocephaly), I'll tell you that in the most mountainous areas of Europe. Alps, Pyrenees..... is documented brachycephaly since the Neolithic, and that the famous steppe riders (famous yes, riders don't), were dolichocephalic, swarthy and uraloids. One of the sacred rules of anthropology is that the higher the height, the more dolichocephaly, so if you travel a bit through Spain, Italy or France, you will surely find many more brachycephaly than in Poland or Sweden. I'm Sorry, but it's like that. You will also find many people taller than the Poles and many people with blue eyes, and you will notice that those physical characters have not been transmitted by certain male or female lineages, nor by certain cultures, but are a mixture that occurred in Europe during millennia and that are more abundant in some regions or others depending among other factors the isolation of populations, the inbreeding, and the climatic conditions.
What do you think about this?
Christiana Scheib (june 11, 2.019)-"Secondly, individuals buried within the Megaliths and in the Trumpington Long Barrow monument all share a genetic affinity to Iberian/Atlantic Façade populations, being more distant to the central European Neolithic individuals (Lazaridis et al. 2014; Olalde et al. 2018) and to later Bell Beaker individuals buried within the same site (Olalde et al. 2018). Thirdly, they share phenotypic alleles similar to Anatolian farmers (Lazaridis et al. 2014) and the burials have higher proportion of males interred with evidence of close kinship ties within and among the monumental burials (Sanchez-Quinto et al. 2019). Ubiquity of the I2d-Y3709/I2a2a Y chromosome haplogroup in Neolithic British Isles
I suppose you will be able to process what they say - Anatolian origin, uniparental markers shared between France Britain and Spain etc. It seems that the British were just as swarthy as the rest of Europeans, but the funny thing is that none of them was especially swarthy because the Anatolian farmers fixed the white skin in Europe and a small percentage of them also had blue eyes-
Do you understand? or are you going to continue talking about different migrations?
Gaska, you're wasting your talents here. You should write a novel.
Thanks for the advice-Just arrived from Rome, they are doing interesting excavations in the Trajan Forum
@All
The following samples have been added to the Global25 datasheets.
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N ZHAG_BON004
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N ZHAJ_BON034
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N ZHJ_BON024
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N ZKO_BON001
Anatolia_Boncuklu_N ZMOJ_BON014
Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG ZBC_IPB001
Levant_PPNB BAJ001
@Gaska "I suppose you will be able to process what they say - Anatolian origin, uniparental markers shared between France Britain and Spain etc. It seems that the British were just as swarthy as the rest of Europeans, but the funny thing is that none of them was especially swarthy because the Anatolian farmers fixed the white skin in Europe and a small percentage of them also had blue eyes-
Do you understand? or are you going to continue talking about different migrations?"
Did you read the link to the article I posted, the one talking about how Brits used to be light-skinned (Neolithic Brits, that is), but that Bell Beaker woman, "Ava", confirmed to be a recent descendant of immigrants from the Netherlands, was actually phenotypical looking as Southern European?
On the phys anthropology, and talk about changes in facial/head shape and height, note that facial shape is not actually independent of height, but correlated.
See - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0080957
As height becomes taller, facial length becomes longer. So where you have described contrasts between taller and longer faced individuals (either over time or within a population), this is probably due to correlation.
It could be interesting to take a height matched sample of Northern and Southern European individuals and then investigate face shape independently of height, to get some idea of independent contribution of steppe / EEF to face shape independently from present day differences in stature (whether genetic or explained by other means). I suppose Bosniaks, Dutch and Lithuanians might give you an idea of such though ideally you'd use more individuals from a wide set of populations and just regress on stature...
Possibly more EEF individuals may have longer faces relative to height, just as Southern Europeans seem to have the same leg length to stature proportions as North Europeans, even though this tends to scale with height, and hence the inferences is they would tend to have longer legs proportionate to height (Allen's Rule).
@Gaska you should read what people read or you just like hearing yourself talk. I never once said anything about Poles being better or not than anyone else. As you know, Poles have at least 35% Anatolian farmer in them. I was asking @Samuel if he thought that the differences between Southern Europeans and Central European farmers had to do with genetic drift or not. Ötzi’s reconstruction shows an almost Alpinoid type, so I thought that perhaps the origin of the Alpinic subrace has to do more with different mtDNA groups compared to dolichocephalic, short and swarthy Southern Europeans.
My Q was whether Ötzi and his Central Euro farmers and Central Euro Alpinic subrace has anything to do with more progressively and increasing WHG Cro Magnon admixture or the fact that Neolithic Farmers were a diverse group to begin with.
How else do you explain the fact that some farmer cultures had predominantly N1a1 mtDNA, others had largely H like GAC and still others were mtDNA T or HV etc.?
There was talk here that the phenotypical European “look” may be due to the fact that Yamnaya and CWC admixed with GAC rather than with CT groups...
If you go through my entire post history, there’s nothing there saying a word disregarding or degrading towards Neolithic Farmers, other than figments of your own imagination
I was also mentioning, @Gaska, (even though I was actually consulting with @Sam or @Davidski about it than with you) if perhaps the famous reconstructions of Otzi, La Brana or Cheddar Man were misleading, in light of the fact that Ava's most recent reconstruction practically depicted her as a Southern European-looking individual despite the fact that she was a BB and that Beakers were "supposed" to look more Nordic.
Some earlier reconstructions of Otzi show him almost Alpinic looking but recent ones make him look a tad more dark and dolichocephalic.
A few months back we all thought of the GAC samples to be all blond, blue eyed and light pigmented individuals until we stumbled upon that slain family with a much-more-Southern-shifted-looking phenotype...
The conclusion is that there must be many Steppe samples hitherto-uncovered, soon-to-be-discovered, with a more Northern-shifted phenotype.
Can't post the link directly, but super interesting paper out on genetics.org: "A Rare Deep Rooting D0 African Y-Chromosomal Haplogroup and Its Implications for the Expansion of Modern Humans out of Africa". This seems to give more credence the belief that DE and CT overall originated in Africa.
@Arza, cool, if they can get a good sampling of burned cochlea, possibly this could fill in some of our gaps in the record.
Obviously for the identity of the Hittites, but also for solving some of the problems where transects have significant gaps due to cremation that induce blur on when and how exactly genetic transitions happened.
I have complained about this in the past in the British context (where cremation becomes frequent much in the phase before Beaker burial, so we don't really have a sample set leading up to Beakers as much as a gap with a couple of remote burials from Orkney in the Western Isles and a chance finding of a femur in a cave in Cheddar in England. But this surely applies in Central Europe, early interactions of SE Europe and the steppe, etc. as well.
@Andrzejewski: "many Steppe samples hitherto-uncovered, soon-to-be-discovered, with a more Northern-shifted phenotype" - there may well be, but nonetheless, the Corded Ware early in the Baltic and Germany do not seem to be so, judging by at least the SLC45A2, and other common markers.
Unless there is some reason to believe that these CW populations would have been replaced by completely different steppe populations, it is doubtful that any genomically light pigmented steppe samples would have any bearing on the matter.
Actually I don't want to discuss same old physical anthropology stuff again, I was just bored and checked the latest comments here, and then some of them incited me to reply…
@Gaska
" One of the sacred rules of anthropology is that the higher the height, the more dolichocephaly"
You don't know what you're talking about. This correlation may be true in some parts of Europe, but it's wrong in other parts. In Italy the shortest people, Sardinians, are also the most dolichocephalic ones. Northern Europe tends to be tall and dolichocephalic (hence the Nordic type), but the Western Balkans are at the same time tall and brachycephalic (i.e. the Dinaric type). Southwestern Europe (Iberia, Sardinia) tends to be short and dolichocephalic (gracile Mediterranean type), the southern half of France (except the Mediterranean coast) short and brachycephalic (Alpine type).
@Matt
"As height becomes taller, facial length becomes longer. So where you have described contrasts between taller and longer faced individuals (either over time or within a population), this is probably due to correlation."
But when the typologists speak about facial shape they usually mean the proportions between the height of the face and its breadth. Hence longer faced for the typologist doesn't necessarily mean particularly long in absolute terms. The short gracile Mediterranean type doesn't have a very long face, but its proportions are definitely elongated because it's narrow in absolute terms. And among the tall types there are both ones with broad shaped face (euryprosopic) and ones with long shaped face (leptoprosopic). The Cromagnoid types (Dalonordic or Dalofaelid or Phalian) indeed don't have very short faces, because they are tall people, but they do have very broad faces, hence they are not leptoprosopic, they are euryprosopic, i.e. broad faced.
EEF had short faces in absolute terms, but at the same time much more narrow than the WHG, hence quite leptoprosopic. Corded people had very long and very narrow faces, hence leptoprosopic. Yamnaya had quite broad faces in absolute terms, but overall mesoprosopic, i.e. intermediate in shape. And there is no necessary Connection between facial shape and cranial index either. Ötzi may look broad faced and "Alpine" in one reconstruction, but this doesn't mean that his cranial index was sort of brachycephalic, by no means, so he doesn't qualify for a real Alpine type.
@Simon, yes, as people become taller "the proportions between the height of the face and its breadth" change, is what I am saying. Not that taller people simply have absolutely longer faces in same proportion as shorter folk because they are larger in general. A taller person with the same facial proportions as a shorter person likely genetic makeup for a relatively broader face, offset by their height.
@Simon_W "But when the typologists speak about facial shape they usually mean the proportions between the height of the face and its breadth. Hence longer faced for the typologist doesn't necessarily mean particularly long in absolute terms. The short gracile Mediterranean type doesn't have a very long face, but its proportions are definitely elongated because it's narrow in absolute terms. And among the tall types there are both ones with broad shaped face (euryprosopic) and ones with long shaped face (leptoprosopic). The Cromagnoid types (Dalonordic or Dalofaelid or Phalian) indeed don't have very short faces, because they are tall people, but they do have very broad faces, hence they are not leptoprosopic, they are euryprosopic, i.e. broad faced."
Yes, we understand all of this. But would you articulate that the difference between Southern and Central European farmers may be due to a different mtDNA setting? I've heard posters saying that if the substrate population within CWC was to be Cucuteni-Triplie instead (or in addition) to Globular Amphora (GAC), then perhaps the phenotype might've been different because of either a genetic drift and/or a various type of mtDNA. For example, mtDNA H would not be as common throughout extant populations.
And one more thing, would you classify Otzi as brachycephalic or Euryprosopic (broad faced) because of mainly a more WHG Cro-Magnon content or because of a different genetic drift? (My own theory was largely because of a different farmer mtDNA).
@Simon W ‘And among the tall types there are both ones with broad shaped face (euryprosopic) and ones with long shaped face (leptoprosopic). The Cromagnoid types (Dalonordic or Dalofaelid or Phalian) indeed don't have very short faces, because they are tall people, but they do have very broad faces, hence they are not leptoprosopic, they are euryprosopic, i.e. broad faced.’
Let’s face it....the only real difference on average between North and South Europe is that North Europe is on average taller and lighter featured. You still are in the old anthropologist frame were there is a difference between a ‘Germanic’ Nordic and a Cromagnoid Dalo. Large parts of the Jastorf area they were and are quite broad headed. Still there seems to be a Nordicist claim that lepto is Germanic eurypro is something archaic, paleothic survival thing....that’s pure biased.
It's a truism that (indigenous) people almost anywhere have some ancestry from the Mesolithic and Neolithic. Mesolithic EHGs and WHGs don't exist anywhere in their unadmixed form, and their ancestry only forms a small percentage of any population today. If you want to find the descendants of the Early European Farmers, look to Sardinia, not Poland.
"How were the people in Poland changing over the centuries, from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century?"
The biggest single change to the genetics of the people living in Poland took place between 1941 and 1945, when 3 million Poles of Jewish ancestry were murdered, 9.76% of the prewar Polish population. The other big change was when the Jews arrived in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Can we just keep nationalism out of scientific research?
Here's then nMonte for a Pole born in 1917 in Lublin. Notice the Sintashta and the Beaker_Poland percentages:
We can say that he has continuity from the Early Bronze Age Beakers of Poland right down to early 20th century Lublin:
Ancestry composition of sample: OG3
@Open Genomes
You are confusing things. Poles can have many meaning. Ethnic Poles means Slavic autochthons of Poland. Poles as citizens of Poland includes everybody who is living there and has citizenship. They can be ethnically Jewish, German, Armenian etc.
In genetics by Poles we mean ethnic Poles, not citizens of Poland.
So I tried modeling the ancestry of Anatolia_Barcin_N with the Global25/nMonte using a whole bunch of samples, including the new Epipaleolithic forager from Pinarbasi. And yep, nMonte always picks this sample as the main source of ancestry for Anatolia_Barcin_N. However, judging by the statistical fits, it looks like we don't yet have the right separate proxies for the eastern and southern admixture sources in Anatolia_Barcin_N, although Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik works rather well as a source for both.
[1] "distance%=4.7733"
Anatolia_Barcin_N
Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG,92.8
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,3.8
Levant_Natufian,3.4
[1] "distance%=4.3831"
Anatolia_Barcin_N
Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG,81.2
Levant_PPNB,16.6
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,2.2
[1] "distance%=4.1495"
Anatolia_Barcin_N
Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG,78.2
Levant_PPNB,14.4
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,7.4
[1] "distance%=2.8614"
Anatolia_Barcin_N
Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,50.2
Anatolia_Pinarbasi_HG,49.8
@Open Genomes
You should be more worried about the nonsense that Joe Flood is peddling in a new "preprint" that he's putting together about R1a.
https://www.academia.edu/39342899/EXPLOSION_FROM_THE_STEPPE_The_distribution_and_origins_of_the_Y-haplogroup_R1a?fbclid=IwAR2HxlKvZMewuLULW_Xb5V1n3r4AcEuXVAwapkKhR2Rm5jaZZYXutS3pQuc
He's claiming (or at least was in one of the versions of his work) that Ashkenazi Jews were part of the early Slavic expansions into Poland that put pressure on Germanic tribes, and eventually led to the more recent troubles in East Central Europe between the German and Polish states, as well as between Germans and Jews.
I think you understand what the political implications of his fairy tale are.
@Davidski @Open Genome
"You should be more worried about the nonsense that Joe Flood is peddling in a new "preprint" that he's putting together about R1a.
https://www.academia.edu/39342899/EXPLOSION_FROM_THE_STEPPE_The_distribution_and_origins_of_the_Y-haplogroup_R1a?fbclid=IwAR2HxlKvZMewuLULW_Xb5V1n3r4AcEuXVAwapkKhR2Rm5jaZZYXutS3pQuc
He's claiming (or at least was in one of the versions of his work) that Ashkenazi Jews were part of the early Slavic expansions into Poland that put pressure on Germanic tribes, and eventually led to the more recent troubles in East Central Europe between the German and Polish states, as well as between Germans and Jews.
I think you understand what the political implications of his fairy tale are."
Not only that, but I think he's wedded to Eran Elhaik's bogus theory re: Khazarian origins of Ashkenazi Jews, now debunked and discredited. Jews cluster more with Southern populations for some reason, maybe their Levant_N origin.
Otherwise it’s easy to see continuity if you would the neglect the Jewish or Mennonites influences.....If this is still possible or may be these influences are watered down. Or indeed like open genomes says murdered by the Nazis.
Continuity?
The landscape of the Kujawsko-Pomorskie Province has also had a twofold influence and owes its form to the particular role of two religious orders. The first are the Teutonic Knights and the second the Mennonites, mysterious and industrious emigrants from the Netherlands who were a characteristic group of Anabaptists. They came to Poland to escape the anti- reformation and religious persecution and found hospitality and tolerance, and therefore they settled here. In the area of Kujawsko-Pomorskie they found their ‘promised land’. For more than two centuries they built anti-flood embankments, ditches, locks, bridges and causeways, windmills and Lutheran churches. They were extraordinary masters of water engineering. Their history is reflected in their works and there are a lot of them. Even today the remains of distinctive Mennonite buildings and cemeteries are preserved along the Vistula Valley from Nowe through Grudziądz, Bydgoszcz and Toruń to Włocławek.
http://s3platform.jrc.ec.europa.eu/documents/20182/91657/kUYAVIA+AND+pOMERIANIA.pdf/55acf9cb-bcfa-40c6-8d53-dd1f23da3a6c
"Researchers are also trying to assess the level of diversity of the population living in the territory of present-day Poland during that period and whether migrants from other areas of Europe, for example from Scandinavia, appeared here. "There is the topic of participation of Scandinavian groups in the creation of the Polish State. Such groups indeed penetrated Poland, they could be hired warriors. But I think that, for example, we can probably put aside the hypothesis that Mieszko I was Scandinavian" - the researcher says."
Maybe--Mieszko I--Silesian Piast's and Casimir III the Great ancestry, will be revealed.
Otzi the Tyrolean Iceman might've looked like this:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/NINTCHDBPICT000216565731.jpg?strip=all&w=767
@East Pole
You mean that the Scots, Armenians, ethnic Germans, and Jews never admixed with the ethnic Poles over the centuries?
I've seen that a certain (nameless) ethnic Pole here shares a segment with an Ashkenazi Jew on 23andMe. The admixture can and did go in both directions, and you can see it in the above nMonte. There were certainly plenty of Polish Jews who converted to Catholicism over the centuries, particularly the mass conversion of the Frankists in 1760. Scots and Armenians were an important historical part of the Polish population, and totally assimilated to the ethnic Poles. The Cumans fled the Mongols and were granted lands and converted in the 13th century. Also, don't forget the Tatars and the Roma ... I know of one Catholic Polish noble family who originated with a Tatar, and in fact on the Y match the Jochid descendants of Genghis Khan's non-son Jochi.
An "ethnic Pole" today is not the same as an early Medieval Slavic Lechite (Polan, Mazovian, Pomeranian, etc.).
@Open Genomes
“You mean that the Scots, Armenians, ethnic Germans, and Jews never admixed with the ethnic Poles over the centuries? "
Because of religious, linguistic and cultural barriers the admixture rate were very low. Poland was not a melting pot.
Germans in Poland lived in German villages preserving their language and religion, in 1939 they supported Hitler and in 1945 left Poland escaping Soviets. In general they didn’t mix with Poles well. The same with Jews. They spoke Yiddish, didn’t mix with Christians. In 1942-45 majority of them were exterminated by Germans. The rest mostly left for Israel or USA escaping communism. Dutch and Scots were Germanized when Poland was partitioned between Germany and Russia because in those times Polish schooling didn’t exist and Polish language was suppressed. German was the official language. Only Armenians assimilated as a rule for the rest it was an exception.
Modern day poles overwhelmingly descend from medieval poles
This is the same for virtually every country in Europe . The fact that they absorbed colonists doesn’t change that.
To suggest otherwise no is frankly bizarre and seems agenda - driven
@Dragos
“Modern day poles overwhelmingly descend from medieval poles
This is the same for virtually every country in Europe . The fact that they absorbed colonists doesn’t change that.
To suggest otherwise no is frankly bizarre and seems agenda – driven”
Yes, I don’t understand what is going on here. Scientists in Poland discovered that some alleles present in Mesolithic HG in Kujawy are still present in the modern population living there. The conclusion is that there is some continuity. Are some posting here suggesting that it is more likely that those Mesolithic HG alleles found in Poland arrived recently to Poland from Holland or Israel? WTF?
@Open Genomes
See here...
Polish aDNA PCA
Modern-day Poles vs Bronze Age peoples of the East Baltic
OT; Having a think again about the Roman and Italian papers and put together a G25 metapca to get a look at things: https://imgur.com/a/0sWwM1E
It seems like Italy Bergamo could be found by a combination of Empuries2 (Greek colonist?) and Empuries1 (Gaulish "Celts", presumably). Southern Italians and Mediterranean Jewish populations then look very specifically clinal between Bergamo like populations and Lebanon Roman, albeit with some variability where Abruzzo can be done with more ancestry like Greek Islanders (Greek crete), while West Sicily seems to require Levant (or North African?) related ancestry. Tuscans may work better than Bergamo as Empuries2+Empuries1 though, then Bergamo may work as German+Tuscan.
Seems like Mediterranean Jewish populations definitely can't be done by combining LBA-classical period Greeks with Roman Lebanese. North Italian like ancestry is non-negotiable.
(On another tangent, it's interesting to me how the greater sample sizes and I guess wider distributions of sampling in some modern day populations in latest G25 update (I think) lead to higher visible variability).
Davidsky, actually I borrowed from some of your own work in creating the earlier part of my R1a draft paper. If you have a critique - I recommend you submit it rather than talking about 'nonsense'.
In this case it looks like you've drawn upon a couple of throwaway lines at the end of a forty-five page draft paper that were intended to introduce a sequel and provoke a little discussion. It seems they have done so.
After five years of listening to complete nonsense from the Reich autosomal school, I would agree we do not need more.
@Joe Flood
Before you try and write something about R1a, make yourself familiar with the oldest instances of Y-haplogroups P, R and R1a in the ancient DNA record. For instance...
Y-haplogroup P1 in Pleistocene Siberia
And then also make yourself familiar with the central role of the Corded Ware culture and its daughter cultures in spreading the most common subclade of R1a today, which is R1a-M417, across much of Eurasia, all the way from the North Sea to India and China. See here...
Inferring the linguistic affinity of long dead and non-literate peoples: a multidisciplinary approach
At some point you'll also have to accept that analyses of autosomal (genome-wide) DNA are accurate and useful when done properly, and try to understand and integrate them into your work.
As for Germanic (and other, like Iranian) influences in Poles there are very ancient ones likely, but these would have been present in the early Medieval times already and distributed quite evenly, so hard to detect without a reference.
As for later Western and especially German colonists, there were a lot which assimilated regionally.
Especially if no larger settlements and communities were established which allowed a distinct cultural tradition.
This was particularly true for Germans which kept their Catholic confession.
From what I read such assimilation of Germans into the Polish people was more common in places which were further away from bigger German communities resulting in more German influences genetically further away from the linguistic border.
But we deal with a rather limited gene flow in Medieval times into the Poles.
I have no idea how significant it was, at least local ly it should be noticeable though, because there are historical accounts of Germam speaking settler groups which lost their identity and integrated into the Polish majority.
Less so than in other CE nations, like Hungarian > Czech > Poles.
I'm sure future analyses will quantify it. I expect local peaks, but low importance overall.
@Zardos
Some of the Poles from Lublin (eastern Poland) in the Human Origins dataset clearly have German and/or Dutch origins.
One is basically fully Dutch, and a couple look half German/half Polish.
I'm not sure if these samples should be marked as Poles in the Human Origins, and I've raised this issue with Harvard, but whatever.
Ancient tuberculosis from Kujawy:
Screening methods for detection of ancient Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex fingerprints in next-generation sequencing data derived from skeletal samples
Borówka et al. 2019
https://academic.oup.com/gigascience/article/8/6/giz065/5521156
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