Wednesday, February 5, 2025
G25 available again
To get your Global25 coords, please use the app HERE. The whole process usually takes a couple of days. Feel free to spread the word.
Please don't order the Global25 unless you have experience in modeling Global25 data with the Vahaduo analysis tools.
Note that the conversion of VCF, BAM, CRAM and/or fastq files is 30 to 50€ extra depending on the case. For enquiries please email teepean47 on g25requests@gmail.com.
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777 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 777 Newer› Newest»@CordedSlav
disgusting comments under the posts, and this whole fake Trump channel is filled with American fascists who are no different from the Russians
As is clear from several presentations, Gretzinger places the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper, in line with the tradition of German historical science. However, he does not confirm this with any sample from this area. He creatively uses the statistical program MOBEST, biasedly selecting samples to suit a preconceived thesis. However, it is enough to add genetically Slavic/Baltic samples Denmark IA and Bornholm IA, and MOBEST indicates the Slavic homeland in Poland. This would be logical, since Denmark IA shares segments IBD with Poland MA in McColl. Gretzinger also insists on a 90% exchange of the Polish population, while the geostatistical method "spatiotemporal kriging" used by McColl shows that there was no exchange of populations in Poland.
@Corded Slav
Besides Hungary, which Eastern European countries belonging to the European Union hate Zelensky?
Do you think any of these countries want to return to the Warsaw Pact?
Spaniards will always prefer Ukraine to Russia, Putin is a pathological coward. Since the end of World War II, the Russians and Americans have been competing to see who loses the most wars. Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Ukraine, they will never tire of making fools of themselves and will continue to think they are great empires, Ha ha ha ha ha aha.
@ Anon_BGP
Why do you think MDC was proto-Slavic ?
in any case, Davidski, don't be upset, this is just a game for the camera, because they could have discussed it behind closed doors
it was a clear provocation from the American side to show Zelensky as a victim.
Zelensky and Trump are both former actors who starred in dozens of films, and Trump also loves wrestling and participated in it himself, so everything is fine, we continue to live
the same as artificial conflicts in the UFC, when one fighter is more impudent and provokes his opponent to emotions, so that the public becomes interested in their confrontation. At the same time, they both play and are serious at the same time.
@Norfern-Ostrobothnian
I haven't upated the G25 datasheets for a long time. The most up to date ancient G25 coords are probably here.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gyeqmlps14bk1w2uz1tdc/G25-Ancients-Undated.txt?rlkey=lycfukqvaodlqta02wivxmt3g&e=1&st=ab3ji6nx&dl=0
Is there any info out there as to when “The Genetic history of the ancient population of the Russian Plain” study will be published? They’ve had a link over at ENA since May of 2024, but no public data yet. Looks like a very interesting project.
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJNA1086800
@ Gaska
''Besides Hungary, which Eastern European countries belonging to the European Union hate Zelensky?
Do you think any of these countries want to return to the Warsaw Pact?
Spaniards will always prefer Ukraine to Russia, Putin is a pathological coward. Since the end of World War II, the Russians and Americans have been competing to see who loses the most wars. Korea, Vietnam, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Ukraine, they will never tire of making fools of themselves and will continue to think they are great empires, Ha ha ha ha ha aha.''
Do you, Basque, speak for *all* Iberians ? Like another person before, you cannot even be honest about your own haplogroup, but stand up to preach about the complexities of world politics ? You are of course free to 'prefer' any nation you wish, although in your case it is a simple function of distance from the Atlantic :) Ukrainians are closer to us as well, but Zelensky is not one of us. Austrians, Romanians, Slovaks, Hungarians (apart from online NAFO types) are very cautious as to their position but the EU neuters dissent. We have not succumbed to the embarassing hysteria that western Europe has, for if you think Z. is your saviour, then you are truly doomed. The Globos have really done a number on you. Im surprised as to how callous the Scandinavians have become, i had initially thought them intelligent and tempered. The brother Poles have their own, very strategic reasons for their 'support' of Ukraine
Only Russian assets and social outcasts in Central, Eastern and Northern Europe shill for Russia and don't support Ukraine.
This is a minority of people, but sometimes they manage to cause political problems by attracting gullible idiots via social media and tiktok to covertly pro-Russian nationalistic/fascist parties.
That's what happened in Romania recently, but Romania acted swiftly and arrested all of the ringleaders.
This Romanian model must be enforced all over Europe whenever Russian assets endanger our democracies.
@ Davidski
It's concerning how far-gone you are, parrotting the nonsene like a cheap EU beaurocrat.
Călin Georgescu is a Romanian nationalist and Christian. He won the population vote but the EU unconstitutionally and illegally annuled the results and arrested him. Out of panick, because Romania is obviously vital for NATO air bases. This would have spiralled out into Bulgaria, where the people recently ramsacked the Germany / EU office an elected a pro-Russian patriarch.
You see, Mr Davidski, it is your masters in the EU who are the fascists. These people are evil, have nothing to lose because the only family they have are their lapp-doggs and bribe deposits they receive, using Ukrainians as their meat-grinder for their failed projects. I am glad they lost. Now they will get their justice, one way or another.
At least your nemesis Carlos Quilles admitted he was wrong, an honest quality you seem to lack.
Oh, I'm not wrong.
Georgescu is a Russian asset. That is a fact.
No one in Eastern/Central Europe who isn't paid by Russia (or totally crazy) wants Russian assets anywhere near the government. That's also a fact.
Now here's a prediction: Europe will rise to the challenge and it'll help Ukraine beat Russia.
You can take that to the bank for some rubles. Buy yourself something nice.
@ CordedSlav
"They celebrated infront of their burning citizens in Odessa, posing in front for pictures, and shelled the Donbass pretty much every morning just for psychological torture. Now they play the victim and call for nuclear war"
Each side has made the wrong steps. But... What does Russia have to do with Odessa and Donbas?
There were violent clashes in Odessa between two warring political groups. Among the total number of 48 fatalities, six people died during the street clashes from both sides, and unfortunately, it ignited hatred. So, maybe some celebrated.
What was before Odessa (May 2, 2014)?
On 18 March 2014, in a so-called "2014 Simferopol incident", a Ukrainian soldier and a Russian Cossack paramilitary were killed in the first case of bloodshed during the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. Russian press started to distribute fake that UA soldier was killed by a "Maidanian" sniper. Ukrainian witnesses disprove this version: attackers broke into Ukrainian military establishment, opened chaotic fire with automatic weapons, and fired at the observation tower. Death report says "... was killed by two 5.45 mm bullets fired from the bottom up".
On 12 April 2014, Girkin/Strelkov led a fifty-strong unit of heavily-armed pro-Russian militants who captured the strategic town of Sloviansk.
On 17 April 2014 was abducted Horlivka local politician. Later his body with signs of torture was found in the Torets River, along with other two bodies.
But it's Russia shelled Ukraine every day by many kinds of missles, exploding drones, artillery, the air alarm sounds several times a day, very often at night. There are a lot of video confirmations.
It's perfect source for BSD plus it's related to Fatyanovo and this German @VVeltkrieger talked about MD = PBS on X
Millions? And you of course have proofs for that? Or it's just big imagination? And of course, the Russians have nothing to do with it, they don't kill Ukrainians.
@Davidski
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.02.28.640770v1?ct
Seen this pre-print? Alligns well with the opinions you, myself and several other commenters had on Patterson's study and how their timing of the "Celtic migration".
@ Corded
There are Basques in Spain and in France, I am first Spanish and then Basque, is that clear to you?
Only Orban supports Putin in Europe, the rest of the countries of the former Soviet orbit like the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Poland, Croatia, the Baltic countries etc. do not want to hear about the Russians for obvious reasons. If Romania and Bulgaria think they were better off before their entry into the EU, they can leave whenever they want, although after the Brexit fiasco I don't think anyone would dare to do so.
Zelensky is not our savior, Western Europe is committed to help Ukraine because he defends the independence of his country and democracy. Putin thinks he is Catherine the Great and has not yet understood that in a conventional war his army is a joke. The time has come to rearm Europe and to send troops to Ukraine.
Let's discuss instead whether the people of the steppe Eneolithic were shepherds and cattle breeders? And are they the ancestors of the shepherds and cattle breeders in Ukraine Sredniy Stog and in Khvalynsk?
Europe cannot afford such a fall as America experienced where Russia won the special war. Russia actually conquered America from the inside. Those who don't see it are stupid, and those who don't want to admit it are Russian agents. Russia is on its way to destroy NATO and completely dominate America. Musk already wants to pull America out of NATO and the UN. Hegseth halted cyber operations against Russia. Even a civil war in America is not ruled out. European democracies should be smart and not allow Russia to conquer them one by one, as it has already conquered Hungary and Slovakia.
Something like a European NATO without America needs to be established urgently.
@Davidski Thank you for the reply.
Only about a week after I asked that question a scientific article about Celtic turned up https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.02.28.640770v1
@Davidski Can you tell me what you think about this language tree? https://i.imgur.com/mqHfiK7.jpeg
In what culture descended from Trzciniec do you think the Slavic linguistic node had completely separated from Baltic?
Okay, who am I kidding) I can't live without politics now. I just came across a video on YouTube. The police detained a neo-Nazi from the so-called "Russian community" (there are plenty of similar organizations in Russia under different brands, but they are controlled by the FSB), they detained him not because he is a neo-Nazi, but because he has a large warehouse of weapons and ammunition at home. Well, everything would be fine, there is one small detail, a MAGA cap is hanging on the wall (Trump's cap - let's make Amelia great again), for some reason many people in the comments missed it.
https://youtube.com/shorts/1cYQeHv8J3o?si=n1M8L0FJN9jaja_k
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.02.28.640770v1
Tracing the Spread of Celtic Languages using Ancient Genomics
Haven't read this yet but I think this one might deserve it's own thread. Will be good to compare Davidski's conclusions from the Patterson paper to what they claim here.
I finished reading this paper and there are many great conclusions made. One neat thing I wanted to point out.
"In contrast, the northward expansion from Central Europe into northern Germany and southern Scandinavia appears to have culminated in a significant defeat, as suggested by the Tollense battle around 3200 BP62 and evident also from the lack of Knovíz related ancestry in Scandinavia prior to the Migration Period. "
They assert that the Tollense Battlefield represents an attempt at a Northward expansion by the Celtic speaking culture which was repelled by proto-Germanics. This was very interesting but they did not include the samples from the Tollense valley in their analysis to determine if they could categorize the dead by Celtic (Having the Anatolian BA ancestry) versus not. I can't remember if I have ever seen an analysis of the Tollense dead identifying any as potentially Scandinavian. I think it is also possible it was between the Celtic speakers and maybe proto-Balts? I am sure there were at least a few Balto-Slavic like individuals there.
@All
From now on all comments with any sort of Russian propaganda will be blocked.
Thanks for your cooperation.
@Davidski
"@All
From now on all comments with any sort of Russian propaganda will be blocked.
Thanks for your cooperation".
I of course have nohing against you and follow with interest your studies upon the autosome, but what you call "Russian propaganda" will be demonstrated in the future, as always, if it is "propaganda" or something else. We'll see how will end the war in Ukraine and also the Great Israel, the same faith, and if the afro-islamic hell is a true mortal danger for us. Don't forget that I hypothesized Villabruna many Years before it was found.
@Davidski
Is anti-Russian propaganda allowed? I can organize
@ph2ter
"Even a civil war in America is not ruled out."
What do you mean?
@ ph2ter, Davidski
I warned you guys what would happen, and I think both of your parochial biases clouded your judgement. Putting Putin & Russia to one side, the efforts of the Biden admin in sparking conflict and 'finishing off'' Russia played a key role (to complete the US Cold War philosophy and the round of Arab Spring). The EU (initially reluctantly) agreed to go along with the Biden's plan.
But the project didn't go to plan, not profitable, change of USA admin, project ditched. You guys going on about Trump and the toppling of USA sounds like you understand nothing about the world. It's simply business and the cogs of the State will carry on.
But the issue now is that the EU leadership is embarrassed and have anrgy home populations, becuase they have been part of the swindling. As Orban said, instead of sobering up, theyre doubling up on the Kool Aid. But it's just empty platitutdes, hand holding and the promising of armies which don;t exist. Apart from meaningless words from internet sissies, Europeans arent going to fight for them.
@Rob
You're confused.
Europeans by and large are more united than ever right now. Against Russia.
This is going to be a turning point for Europe in a very good way, and, of course, a disaster for America.
Awesome clip.
https://x.com/YourAnonCentral/status/1896772496403435853
@Davidski
"Europeans by and large are more united than ever right now. Against Russia."
and this is exactly what Mr. Trump was trying to achieve. This was a public flogging of Zelensky. So that later all Europeans would see this video, so that people would not have questions about where our taxes and money are going. In fact, Europe is now forming its own NATO and this is exactly what Mr. Trump was trying to achieve.
@ Romulus
''They assert that the Tollense Battlefield represents an attempt at a Northward expansion by the Celtic speaking culture which was repelled by proto-Germanics. This was very interesting but they did not include the samples from the Tollense valley in their analysis to determine if they could categorize the dead by Celtic (Having the Anatolian BA ancestry) versus not.''
BA Anatolia ancestry in Iron Age / pre-Roman western Alpines ? Carrying on from their Nordic paper, im sceptical of this teams haplotype-based admixture, not due of the methdodology itself, but their interpretation of it.
Also frankly doubtful of an association of Tollensee with 'Celtic' groups.
@Radiosource said...
What do you mean?
The oligarchs think they can manipulate the masses at will. They can, but only to a point. As long as most Americans are doing well economically, they are safe. But in the case of inflation, unemployment, poverty and chaos, the mob will then have no regard for anyone. Then nothing will help the oligarchs.
To me, their Mar-a-Lago parties now look like the Titanic before hitting the iceberg.
But maybe I'm too optimistic when I think their policies will have a bitter end for them.
@Romulus I think Celts vs Balto-Slavic related makes more sense for Tollense. WEZ56 is an outlier that is more Balto-Slavic/Baltic LBA oriented. Not a single Germanic associated haplogroup has been found in the dead from the battlefield which lends credence to your theory of Celts vs Balto-Slavs or maybe Celts vs speakers of some extinct archaic IE dialect.
@Davidski
Here's another one😄
https://youtu.be/eazqDdpsK8s?si=YUpuChpv5Ubc1Xbs
interesting maps compiled by a Japanese pop geneticist. the Japanese love to bring everything to perfection, as here.
an interesting point is that this author believes that EHG and CHG mixed in the area of the eastern Caucasus in the Mesolithic
https://x.com/Tatsuya9JP/status/1897198266686779577
I hope the political turmoil doesn't distract you from making progress with the new test.
@All
Apologies for the lack of action here.
Very busy at the moment, but I'll be focusing more on the blog from now on.
@ Anon_BGP
''It's perfect source for BSD plus it's related to Fatyanovo'
How can it be the perfect source when there arent; any samples, and theLBA_Baltic or Trziniec samples alreasy show promising fits?
'' and this German @VVeltkrieger talked about MD = PBS on X''
Oh well in that case :)
I have a question, have modern Europeans and Indo-European peoples found a lot of R1b-V1636? If not, then why not? By all logic, there should be a lot of it.
@Mr Funk
The samples of R-V1636 which survived are very few. We have only 3 samples tested in Italy and, when I checked also the samples published in the papers, identifiable through the few STRs (usually 17), I found a little more, but I found in Italy all the known thus far 5 haplotypes, for that I said that the origin was in Italy like Villabruna14000 ya . From the aDNA it seems that all the samples did come from central-eastern Europe , but they are at least many thousands of years later than the origin of the subclade, thus I think we have to wait for knowing more. That the samples are a few is in line with the genetic drift of the oldest samples.
I came across a funny comment on Twitter: "American markets show that in a month and a half Trump has caused 30 times more damage to the US economy than all the American aid to Ukraine in the previous three years.
This is Trump's trump card"
@ Mr Funk
''interesting maps compiled by a Japanese pop geneticist. the Japanese love to bring everything to perfection, as here.
an interesting point is that this author believes that EHG and CHG mixed in the area of the eastern Caucasus in the Mesolithic
https://x.com/Tatsuya9JP/status/1897198266686779577''
LOL you're selectively crawling as usual, Arsen.
I don't think this anlaysis focuses on CHG, but tbh I don't think they're even based on a genuine qpgraph analysis (the gaphs are suspect, too many ghosts, etc). Obviously, any serious scholar would solicit credible data rather than imagining CHG settlements where they don't exist.
Facial reconstruction of an Early Bronze Age woman from the Yamnaya culture, buried at Utyovka in Samara.
https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1899860572952216042
LOL no US civil war. Next war - US / Israel invasion of Iran. Watch Trump become the darling of 'western Liberals' then
Davidski salaam alaikum 🤝
Robert salaam alaikum
salaam alaikum, Mr Funk
@ Car
You sound like a moron
The don is Russian
Tough luck loser
@ ph2ter
“ Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky to force him to resign. ”
Man your a dumb faggot, even by Gimp-Fraud Archivist standards
@ Rob
No, it is you sound like a moron.
Yes, Don is Russian river. Finally a FYROMian learned something about Eastern Europe.
@Rob
"Man your a dumb faggot, even by Gimp-Fraud Archivist standards"
Man, my comments must hit you to the core.
Have any of you tried Manus AI yet?
@ Car
Nice dyslexia. And so it means I’m impartial. Unless you’re deeply retarded, you also know that I know far more about EE than a chihuahua nobody called Car.
@ph2ter
No your comments are nauseatingly vapid and limpwristed, a status quo of “experts” from FraudArchiver. Now you better get back to the chickens over there
@ Rob
Davidski keeps you here as a holy fool, a dubious fame. Just because you've been to Moldova via Odessa doesn't mean you mops know about eastern Europe.
"chg" of the steppe Eneolithic is similar to "chg" of Ginchi and is not similar to "chg" of the Eneolithic of the Caucasus - Darkveti Mesheko, whose "chg" is purely Georgian
https://ibb.co/93zTJBTX
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.03.24.644985v1
Some interesting samples. While we should be very cautious given the small number of Dutch SGC/CWC samples, if they are indeed representative then the most harmonious conclusions are probably something like:
1. SGC indeed was likely R-U106-rich, albeit Steppe ancestry quickly and substantially diluted around the northern-most parts of the lower Rhine.
2. Bell Beaker was indeed primarily an R-P312-rich expansion, probably originating closer to the middle Rhine.
3. R-U106 in several Dutch Bell Beaker samples is because of admixture between expanding Bell Beaker and local Dutch SGC.
@ Car - yes I took a google tour from Odessa to Moldova, which is how I became an expert on EE. I enjoy the comedy of sanctimonious manlets operating beyond their realm of existence. Btw even our boy Davidski needs some tough love on occasions.
''https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2025.03.24.644985v1
Some interesting samples. While we should be very cautious given the small number of Dutch SGC/CWC samples, if they are indeed representative then the most harmonious conclusions are probably something like:
1. SGC indeed was likely R-U106-rich, albeit Steppe ancestry quickly and substantially diluted around the northern-most parts of the lower Rhine.
2. Bell Beaker was indeed primarily an R-P312-rich expansion, probably originating closer to the middle Rhine.''
There's more going on here, Firstly, it shows that the concept of 'SGC' is an outdated archaeological invention because Danish 'SGC' (assoc. with R1b-V1636 and I2a-M423) has little to do with Dutch 'SGC' with the U106 (shared with 'typical Elbe--Bohemia Corded Ware) ' and high levels of local TRb/ Swifterband ancestry
Secondly, it confirms that there was a large migration into Scandinavia c. 2400BC (temporally corresponding to the BB era, but not typical P312 Beaker folk) from continental Europe which contributed the prevailing ancestry of PGMc peoples.
Thirdly, i had always argued against the Netherlands being the BB homeland (sensu the typical P312 package). In reality, it looks like an Upper Danube - lower Rhine event
EthanR
2. Bell Beaker was indeed primarily an R-P312-rich expansion, probably originating closer to the middle Rhine.
We don't really learn much from the study about P312 or Bell Beaker. There is only one new P312 sample I12900 which is much younger than I5748 P312>DF19>Z302 2579-2211 calBCE. Contemporary continental L21 still eludes us. The oldest proven P312 is still RISE563 2573-2310 calBCE
The oldest western European L151 per FTDNA Discover is Aesch25 from Switzerland. The oldest L151 anywhere is from Bohemia (several samples) which is Corded Ware and has a U106 sample PNL001 which is also the oldest U106 and oldest L151.
There is a need for a lot more samples with a dated midpoint between 2900 BC and 2600 BC to find the source of Bell Beaker P312 in central or western Europe and how it got there from further east and who their closest relatives were based on autosomal DNA as well as Y-DNA. Rhine is a possibility for the origin but what part of the Rhine and how did they get there.
@Rob @EthanR
Sure the BB package probably originated along Middle Rhine and/or Upper Rhine in P312-rich CW groups but seems like Dutch/NW German U106 SGC clans became early on part of the Beaker package/network and spread U106 to Scandinavia ~ 2350 BCE coinciding with the LN/Flint Dagger epoch. I'm more convinced now that I1 was part of the same BB network and arrived together with U106 in Southern Scandinavia as demonstrated by Toftum Mose NEO875. The East Baltic route was destined to fail.
We also have R-Z156 unequivocally rooted in the Low Countries and seems like it spread with classic Beaker/Eastern Beaker to Central Europe and contributed to later Celtic ethnogenesis. McColl 2025 makes this fairly obvious.
"
There's more going on here, Firstly, it shows that the concept of 'SGC' is an outdated archaeological invention because Danish 'SGC' (assoc. with R1b-V1636 and I2a-M423) has little to do with Dutch 'SGC' with the U106 (shared with 'typical Elbe--Bohemia Corded Ware) ' and high levels of local TRb/ Swifterband ancestry"
Agreed. There is no one size fits all for SGC. Needs re-evaluation.
Barbed-Wire Beaker looks like the corresponding vector for U106 & I1. It was a north of the Rhine/Northern BB group.
Are there any new papers in the pipelines? It feels like it's been so long since we got a major paper. All I see in the comments is mental illness and conspiracy theories.
It's likely that samples from Danish SGC will show U106 when we get more of them.
I'm not sure there is much reason to assume R-U106 (or I1 for that matter) arrived in Scandinavia as part of some sort of Beaker movement or even the acculturation of late SGC as opposed to it just plainly reflecting the encroachment of SGC into Denmark.
The two early Danish SGC might not have been R-U106 but conversely there is a paucity of P312 in the many LN/BA Scandinavian samples (most being Danish) between the McColl and Allentoft papers. An acculturation scenario is plausible but doesn't seem to match with what happened in other observed areas of Europe and therefore seems unnecessarily convoluted.
The mt haplogroup U5b3 demonstrates once more that the migration happenned from Italy to the Rhine region:
KH180044 NT136.1 .. ImmelCommBiol2021 Krause-Kyora, Ben Context: Archaeological 5100 202 3500-2800 BCE mature; 40-60 yrs MN_Wartberg Niedertiefenbach Germany 50,442 8,136 1 0,09 97724 0,030 F n/a (no close relatives detected) n/a (<300K SNPs) n/a (<300K SNPs) n/a (female) n/a (female) .. 5,21287 U5b3 ds.half KH180044
@Davidski At the moment the earliest U106 in Denmark is NEO870 and he's dated between 2454-2155 calBCE. How do you explain away the fact that U106 and even P312 suddenly pops up in Scandinavia during the Late Neolithic?
On a GW-level these LN U106 & P312 men don't even resemble the Gjerrild 5/RISE1281 Single Grave boy that much, while we have an actual U106 Single Grave derived in Mienakker, North-Holland.
"It's likely that samples from Danish SGC will show U106 when we get more of them."
Do you really think all of this is a coincidence? And what's your rational behind U106 likely in Danish SGC? Unpublished data or special pleading?
@EthanR
I'm not sure there is much reason to assume R-U106 (or I1 for that matter) arrived in Scandinavia as part of some sort of Beaker movement or even the acculturation of late SGC as opposed to it just plainly reflecting the encroachment of SGC into Denmark.
"The two early Danish SGC might not have been R-U106 but conversely there is a paucity of P312 in the many LN/BA Scandinavian samples (most being Danish) between the McColl and Allentoft papers. An acculturation scenario is plausible but doesn't seem to match with what happened in other observed areas of Europe and therefore seems unnecessarily convoluted."
And there is no DF27 in British BB/EBA so what's your point? U106 pops up at exactly the right time for a Scandinavian BB spread. It's implausible for this to be a fluke.
It's not really about acculturation but about the shifting of networks. Dutch SGC was undoubtedly part of the transition from CW to BB.
Robert, why do you think they do this, how many similar cases have there been that were captured on camera, and how many that were not captured on camera, imagine? Thousands and thousands, and now, what, you don't believe that the losses are at least 6 to 1? I have never seen a single video like this from the Russian side. I mean, how a Ukrainian either shoots himself or blows himself up with a grenade
https://x.com/GloOouD/status/1904991646036443533
There's U106 in Czech Corded Ware, so it's Quiles-like naive to assume that there won't be any U106 in Danish, German and Polish Corded Ware when enough samples are tested.
There might even be some U106 in Baltic Corded Ware eventually.
Obviously, most of these U106 lineages will be dead ends, so it'll be interesting to see which of them actually leads us to the modern Germanic U106 lines.
Don't ever go full retard like Quiles.
@Davidski
And there probably was P312 in Czech Corded Ware, as well as Danish, German, Polish and the whole shebang. Sure, they are dead ends but this is a moot point. Surprised by the low-level argumentation of yours.
My point is that the relevant U106 (Z18, Z381) lines pop up in LN Scandinavia and you still can't explain away their sudden appearance you moron.
Quiles is irrelevant. Don't get too worked about some pauper.
@Davidski and all
What do you think of the possible earlier datings for Urnfield culture in eastern Serbia?
"Ever since the first discovery of urn burials in eastern Serbia during the 1980s, their dating has been uncertain and based on distant analogies and typological parallels. In this paper, we present radiocarbon dates from five urn cemeteries and three associated settlement sites, showing that the initial dating (Late Bronze Age; 14th–11th BCE) is highly questionable. Instead, radiocarbon dating and modeling presented here connect the urn cemeteries—characterized by a specific grave architecture and associated with settlements that display evidence of copper production—to a period between the 20th and 16th centuries BC..."
https://tinyurl.com/3jce2zw5
Harvardians definitely continue to make serious mistakes.
1-Unlike the results of Bohemia where the L151 samples found can hardly be associated with typical CWC burials, the U106-Dutch sample despite not having grave goods associated with the burial has been excavated in a typical SGc settlement.
2- It is better to consult this paper “A matter of life and death at Mienakker (the Netherlands)” because the dating of the skeleton is 2.556 BCE not 2.713 BCE as Olalde says in his work, that is to say, it belongs to the last phase of occupation of the site (late CWC). And for the peace of mind of the kurganists this would explain the scarce steppe ancestry of the sample (which by the way can be perfectly modeled without a steppe component).
3-I agree with Rob that the SGC needs to be redefined because it is not only highly variable in terms of burial customs, grave goods etc but because its male markers are very different-In Denmark we have I2a1b1a-CTS616, I2a1a2-L161, I2a1b1a2b1-Z170. This could also apply to CWC in general, because in addition to the dozens of R1a samples, in Switzerland (Spreitenbach) we have I2a1a2-L161, in Czechia (Brandysek)-I2a2a2-M223, (Velké Žernoseky)-I2a1a1b1b-M838, in Poland (Pitutkowo)-I2a-Z161 etc. That is CWC is far from being uniform with respect to its male markers.
4-This certainly points to a local origin of many of the male markers found in the different regions of the CWC, i.e. it points to the importance of exogamy in the transmission of steppe ancestry (as we saw in Bohemia). A Central European or even Baltic origin for U106 and L151 should not be ruled out and of course the linkage of P312 to the CWC has proven to be another Kurganist chimera.
5-People should study the IBD segments shared with Iberia and France and the fact that the early British BBs (Amesbury archer etc), with little steppe ancestry, cannot be modeled with the CWC or BBC Dutch genomes. This points to an origin of L21 in southern Germany or France, not in the Netherlands.
And of course the so-called Dutch model as the origin of the BBC is still a bad joke.
@Asega "And there is no DF27 in British BB/EBA so what's your point? "
Yes there is. I2602 from Kent is R-DF27. Early bronze age.
@rozbójnik Alright. DF27 didn't get in the way of L21. They all occupied different regions (U106 no different). Some P312 made their way into Scandinavia with U106, such as L238 and DF19 but they were minor players.
The problem is that people are confused (including Davidski) about the fact we're seeing two different branches pop up in BB-related contexts in largely different places. This is not confusing if you understand that they're both brothers descending from L151 and seem to have taken the same route westwards (Bohemia, Low Countries).
FTDNA has added some more (but still not all) samples from the Lazaridis paper.
Looks like the Swat Valley I-L699 are on the same branch as Don Yamnaya, to the exclusion of other samples:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L704/tree
🤗
I'm not familiar with any evidence to suggest that R-P312 entered Scandinavia in the LN in any enduring way, nor that Scandinavian R-U106 has any direct relationship with Dutch Bell Beakers, if that's what you are wanting to imply.
Unless I'm missing something, DF19 shows very low frequency in Scandinavia, and a look at the phylogeny of L238 shows that its diversity in Scandinavia is probably more recent (all Scandinavian branches departing from each other around the early first millennium CE).
@ EthanR
"Looks like the Swat Valley I-L699 are on the same branch as Don Yamnaya, to the exclusion of other samples:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L704/tree"
In fact that demonstrates Beyond any doubt that they belonged to a migration from West and this haplogroup was in Italy, and only in Italy, in the time 20000/10000 ybp.
Before some folks invoke the usual 'there arent enough samples'' & ''absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence'' cliche, it is best to analyse what we do have, which is quite telling.
I am not surprised that early CW didnt boom immediately at the extreme periphery of its expansion, such as in Jutland or the lower Rhine. There are only a few dozen 'early SGC/ early CW' complexes at these locations, meaning they were a minority. The hundreds and thousands of kurgans across Europe were built over hundreds and thousands of years. Who'd have thunk
@ Asega
Is it L48-> which is the pre-proto-germanic associated lineage under U106 ?
@ Ethan
Tellingly, Berezhnovka doesn;t seem to be 'founding individual' for all later 'steppe associated PF6902''. I've been updated about the remaining individuals, but Ill wait for the team to place them on the tree
@ Ethan
“Looks like the Swat Valley I-L699 are on the same branch as Don Yamnaya, to the exclusion of other samples:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L704/tree””
Expectedly, Yamnaya ( -> Catacomb) -> Srubnaja-Andronovo -> etc
rather than a mystery ‘distal’ Sredni Stog -> Andronovo route
because I- L704 is of course missing in CW and its direct offshoots
Back to SGC: so I think what we're seeing is that the northern fringe of continental Europe (lower Rhine, Denmark; ''SGC") was initially settled by 'Corded Ware' clans possibly emanating from several precursor regions in Europe, but most heavily the Elbe-Saale region. I'm aware that there are perceived archaeological reasons for unifying a large swathe of northern Europe into an "SGC' entity, but in reality early phase burials are rare and often disturbed or poorly preserved; whilst others come from later period. The 'archaeological uniformity' is therefore rather ad hoc, generalised and in the eye of the beholder.
An important thing to note is that 'SGC' groups in Denmark were focussed in western Jutland which in 2800 BC had a steppe-like landscape due to previous deforestation. But they really didnt expand further east. As we know, Sweden was instead initially clonized by Battle Axe folk coming from the East, and the region in between (eastern Jutland, Zealand & the Danish Isles) was a sort of no-mans land settled by late TRB and Pitted Ware groups. Some exchange and movement was occurring, but there was essentially a stand-still for some 400 years.
Then after 2500 the previous borders were overcome, because middle-late CW groups had adapted and evolved to northern Europe. From this phenomenon emerged a sort of quasi-Beaker society, in the sense that it was bare of R1b-P312 groups. Where these U106-rich groups moved out from remains to be seen; but whether it's Groningen or Hannover doesn't really matter to the big picture.
@Rob Yes, wouldn't exclude Z18 though.
McColl reported L48 being absent from the LNBA record suggesting a later assimilation. Though we have CGG106838 who is Z301 (one step upstream of L48) in LN Zealand which debunks his own theory. L48 was probably the dominant clan in Jutland but lack of data constrains us. It's fairly clear Z18 dominated Zealand.
Yes, the Swat Valley samples probably have something to do with Abashevo, which is in line with the small amount of R-Z2103 that is in Abashevo itself and Sintashta.
The Berezhnovka individuals are interesting. It was always likely they had to be RE adjusted to some extent but the R-V1636 individuals are also pretty downstream so I suspect the cemetery is more like a late 5th millennium BC one than a middle one.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Y96236/tree
@Davidski
I improved the coverage for the Khatystyr cave 10kya ancient (upcoming big Siberia study https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB86428), while keeping the contamination very low. I know it is still somewhat low coverage, but I also know you made some G25 coord from less than that, would it be possible to generate G25 out of this file: https://ufile.io/ys3nr9bm ?
Thanks!
Can't extract the files from the zip folder. It's empty.
Here's another link: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YYDJCPdwAJ0O1NBNZlhzLOJPfXkTEpnu?usp=sharing
@Davidski
https://x.com/NatasaIvanova9/status/1906379528215167209
the inscription on the chevron: "electrical tape will fix everything, even Poland"
they want to use this electrical tape to turn Poland into a garbage dump, a subsidized region without a national language or culture, so that the Poles would worship the Kremlin and then go on to seize land to please the Russians and the Kremlin
meanwhile when trash like Robert will defend them and insult Europeans, you should block Robert he is a loser
Nah, there's hardly any data to run.
your right! I went a bit fast without checking enough, so it means that to get better coverage I need unacceptable contamination levels. Thanks for checking, much appreciated!
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https://4pda.to/2025/03/30/440183/chtenie_dannykh_iz_dnk_uskorili_v_3200_raz/
male chromosomes KA culture
https://x.com/iizumoo/status/1906835780217282623
@Mr Funk
Thank you. All that demonstrates that hg R1b isn't from KA nor probably from Yamnaya or eastern Europe. My theory is definitely reinforced. About the origin and diffusion of R-V1636 I wrote a lot in the last 20 Years.
I'd say more. Undoubtedly hg J was diffused in the Caucasus, but the presence of R-V1636 could be a proof of the other theory of mine, that also hg J was with hg I in the WHG in the Palaeolithic.
Donald Trump is a total moron.
Be careful Davidski, he may impose duties on Eurogen
But not on Russia.
New tariffs on Poland (EU) are 20%, on Ukraine 10%, and on Russia 0%.
Haha.
Trump is literally destroying America. Without any significant resistance. And this is just the beginning.
Nixon's tarrif re-shuffle were more 'shocking'
@Rob
MAGA Communism and the End of America
https://ncofnas.com/p/maga-communism-and-the-end-of-america
no, no, you all got it wrong, Trump's action is not aimed at destroying America, Trump's action is aimed at strengthening the dollar, no matter how strange it may sound now. I think it's some kind of move. I understood this from the start, when Trump, after his election, made a statement that half a trillion dollars would be allocated for AI. This is not a small amount of money. Artificial intelligence can literally do anything, it will change the world, you'll see, you don't understand how powerful a weapon this is. I was able to literally write the same Davidskogt calculator with more accurate answers on AI.
the most powerful weapon against corruption and theft by politicians is artificial intelligence. the same Grock from Elon Musk. he can break down any news, any statement by Trump and explain why he said it, why he did it, why he acted that way, he literally controls and interprets everything that happens in the world online. and based on all of this he can give out some of his own advice, that's why I called it digital communism.
@Mr Funk
Trump is turning America into a banana republic, and the American dollar is screwed if that happens.
After the stock market crash and massive inflation from the tariffs, you'll see price controls and other communist policies to try and save the economy and the American dollar. But it'll be too late.
I take it from Davidski's continued preference for discussing politics that Lazaridis is right.
@Davidski
I hope he and Elon's team thought everything through well in advance, taking into account all the risks.
@ Davidski
''MAGA Communism and the End of America
https://ncofnas.com/p/maga-communism-and-the-end-of-america''
This is nothing, just the opinion Democrat partisan with no background in economics. Trump is not the cause of these issues, he is the symptom of them. One president over 4 to 8 years (with minimal overall control of multiple, complex and global forces) isn't going to cause the sudden collapse of the USA.
If you listen to interviews with economists like Richard D Wolf or Yanis Varoufakis, they outline a more detailed and diachronic outline of the woes of the USA, and more generally Western, economies.
His tarrifs are unlikely to fix anything, apart from some short-medium term benefit for his backers, e.g. Musk. The problem is the overall decline of US hegemony and the West as a whole. Suggested causes are rise of technofeudalism, poor prductivity, incessant wars, spiraling national debt, new world (multi-polar) order, and the decline of the middle class (which has in turn fuelled the social tensions and popularism).
Of course, one might say that RW and YV are pessimistic and socialist, and some of my Finance mates have an optimistic outlook, but Im not sure. look at the objective indixes, such as housing affordability
Would anybody discuss genetics?
To further elaborate, as overly simple summary, the detaching of the US dollar in 1971 from gold enabled (Western) world growth, as the US could simply print money. This growth benefitted everyone under the Pax Americana, but of course most notable certain US industries. But these were non-productive bankers, financiers, stock market types. This wealth stimulated a brain gain - USA became the centre of the universe however, ultimately the US de-industrialised because their dollar was so strong, local costs were so high, and factories and lobor was exported. This drained heartland USA and led to soaring inequalities.
MAGA is trying to re-industrialise USA because the Neoliberal world order is gone. I think the tariffs are just bargaining chips, used to incentivitise the world to continue usiung of the USD$. If that it is jettisoned, it;ll be game over although there are no other contendors, even with BRICS forming. it's hard to predict what will happen in the next 10 years or so.
@George
"Would anybody discuss genetics?"
I check this blog regularly for the new autosomal test. But it's probably for the second half of 2025.
When approximately did the Tutkaul population form? I mean, when the Iranian Neolithic mixed with the northern Eurasians, in the zone overlapping these two populations?
https://x.com/funkarsg13/status/1908569856594894911
@ beefawellington
Seems like Laz developed a passion for AI-generated anime. He should probably stick to that 🤣
Anyone have any thoughts on the recent Takarkori paper?
@Davidski
Could some more information be given about the new test?
For example will it work in the same way as G25 as in you will have a set of samples to model yourself against or will be something different entirely
There won't be a blog or any new tests if Trump blows up the global economy with his bullshit.
@ Mr Funk
Who made this ridiculous map? WHGs are found in today Italy in the Palaeolithic: look at I-M223. This map probably demonstrates my theory that hg R1b expanded from the Villabruna refugium, but there was also hg I etc.
https://x.com/colossal/status/1909327267819667573?s=19
Dire wolves brought back from extinction with ancient DNA. How long till ancient humans will be? Tech is already here. We need to ressurect Neanderthals in my lifetime.
Wolves first , then humans https://x.com/colossal/status/1909247817672957959
Russia is the richest country in the world in terms of natural resources
https://x.com/boris0630/status/1909089284755185666
What if Swedish 'Battle Axe' didn;t actually come from the East Baltic, but northern Poland and eastern Denmark ?
@ Mr Funk
''When approximately did the Tutkaul population form? I mean, when the Iranian Neolithic mixed with the northern Eurasians, in the zone overlapping these two populations?
https://x.com/funkarsg13/status/1908569856594894911''
This can be approached by (i) validating the base model that TTK is a two-way mix of ANE + Iran_N like ancestries with a deeper analysis (e.g. qpGraph) (vs. it being formed by something more complex or 'deeper'); (ii) if true, perform analysis with DATES; given that a 2-way admixture event might produce sensible result, (Iii) look for archaeological correlates to corroborate admixture event
how do we even know proto-indo-anatolian is actually a distinct thing and isn’t just apart of the broader indo european sphere? we already know that anatolian came through the balkans just like greek and armenian so whats stopping this from being the actual reality?
@Gio
I have no idea who made this map, but it seems there is no mistake. The WHG area there affected the northern part of Italy, the Alps region where the Villarbuna cave is, I just added the Tutkaul region, its geographical position coincides with the overlap zone of Iranian and North Eurasian populations
@ Mr Funk
It has been demonstrated ad abundantiam that not only R1b1 of Villabruna 14000 years ago but also I2a-M223 (or upstream) was in Tagliente 2 (Alpine zone) and in Apulia (Southern Italy) 17000 years ago and they all were WHG and the same at the autosomal level.
Which ancient human population would Davidski prefer to "resurrect" by cloning? Early CWC Poland?
That story about cloning the Dire Wolves is bullshit.
They just edited 20 genes to make Grey Wolves sort of similar to Dire Wolves.
But they couldn't even use the right genes in some cases, because the wolves would've come out disabled (blind and other stuff). So in some cases they used other genes to create the desired effect, like the light coat.
I'm reading about this story at X and thinking, wow, people are morons.
I agree that the Dire Wolves cloning is grossly exaggerated but it's a first step. We can see how far ancient DNA sequencing has come in 15 years, it's going to be the same case with CRISPR and these attempts at cloning. I expect it won't be too long before we have Wooly Mammoths, there is another story about "wooly mice" where they have added the wooly genes to mice. Give it another 5-10-15 years and it will go from 20 genes to 20^20 genes to 20^20^20 genes. If we can do it with mice and wolves there is no logical reason we couldn't do it with humans. All that would be required is a surrogate mother in some libertarian country (Argentina?) and we could have Neanderthals and other types of ancient humans reborn. Let it get perfected with ancient animals and it will just be a matter of time before barrier to entry for the technology becomes so low somebody decides to try it with humans.
@Davidski
there is one person asking you a question through me, he can't ask directly because you banned him:
The first question is, when will the new DNA analysis come out? Will it come out by the end of this year? Should we wait? The other question is, will it have a scientific aspect?
@''I have no idea who made this map, but it seems there is no mistake. ''
https://x.com/funkarsg13/status/1908569856594894911
Gio is right, WHG should extend all the way to southern Italy, Gr. Oriente is a well known example. Also, Iberia should be separated from regular WHG. Although it's overall an OK effort for a global outline
@Mr Funk
There will very likely be a new test in the second half of this year, but I can't provide any details yet, because I'm looking at different solutions so that it's clearly an improvement on the G25.
The G25 won't be phased out for a while, even after the new test goes live, because it'll be important to compare the results from both tests.
But everything also depends on the economic situation. If we're in a major recession or depression then the blog will shut down for good.
@Rob
this is an approximate map, no one says that it is 100% correct, an amateur map
@Davidski
thanks
@Romulus the I2a L233+ Proto Balto-Slav, layer of Corded Ware Women
I would be interested not in woolly mammoths, not in white wolves, but in ancient people, as well as some famous dead people, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, etc. It would be great to clone them, but for now using a living womb, a surrogate mother, etc.
@ Mr Funk
''I would be interested not in woolly mammoths, not in white wolves, but in ancient people, as well as some famous dead people, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, etc. It would be great to clone them, but for now using a living womb, a surrogate mother, etc.''
I guess you're joking. I seriously hope nobody is ever cloned, even Jesus. That's an abomination.
Are you afraid that people will clone God?
I'm getting low IQ vibes from this conversation.
Please raise your game.
Folks, is it just me, or are the latest archaogenetic papers full of extremely bold and surprising BUT very bizarre and unreliable conclusions, at least using Global25 coordinates? What is going on?
First of all, the Takarkori study claims they have found what is basically the Ancestral North African (ANA) population still almost unmixed ~7000 kya, but how can it belong to such a distinctive and highly diverged cluster, without much shared recent drift with other already known African clusters, when it can be perfectly modeled as a combination of the 3 closest African clusters nearby (Iberomaurusian + West African + Nilotic) so easily and with such excellent fits in G25?
Someone might say that's because those 3 proxies had Takarkori-like ANA ancestry instead, but that doesn't convince me at all, because the big non-ANA portion of the ancestry of Nilotes, West Africans and Iberomaurusians would be very divergent from ANA and shift them strongly away from Takarkori, thus making an "upside down" model, inverting the order of gene flow, very unlikely to have such low distance fits (<3%).
Target: TKH:TKH001_tr_all
Distance: 2.6985% / 0.02698497 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.8 Morocco_UP_Iberomaurusian_Taforalt_(n=6)
34.0 Dinka_(n=33)
29.2 Yoruba_Nigeria_(n=14)
Now, there is also this strange paper on the Punic colonies, claiming that the Phoenicians had virtually no genetic contribution to the Punic societies, despite the very strong Phoenician influence in virtually everything Punic: language, religion, economy etc. They claim that the Punic people had muhc more Aegean influence instead (I assume they mean Greeks and Anatolians). The thing, though, is that one can easily find substantial Levant_BA/Levant_IA admixture in most of the samples, and the averages have considerable Levantine admixture. And, of course, that makes much more sense than Aegeans from a cultural and socio-political point of view.
Target: Tunisia_Punic_(n=31)
Distance: 1.0821% / 0.01082053 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.6 Italy_Lazio_IA_Etruscan_Civitavecchia_(n=2)
25.8 Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Phocis_(n=4)
17.8 Iberia_Madrid_CA_(North_African_Profile)_(n=1)
11.0 Lebanon_MBA_Sidon_Canaanite_(n=5)
9.6 Iberia_Andalusia_EIA_Tartessian_(n=1)
5.0 Morocco_UP_Iberomaurusian_Taforalt_(n=6)
4.2 Lebanon_Hellenistic_Beirut_(n=2)
Target: Spain_Punic_(n=13)
Distance: 1.1889% / 0.01188858 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.2 Italy_Lazio_IA_Etruscan_Civitavecchia_(n=2)
17.8 Iberia_Madrid_CA_(North_African_Profile)_(n=1)
14.2 Lebanon_MBA_Sidon_Canaanite_(n=5)
13.4 Iberia_Andalusia_EIA_Tartessian_(n=1)
5.0 Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Phocis_(n=4)
4.4 Lebanon_Hellenistic_Beirut_(n=2)
Target: Italy_Punic_(n=55)
Distance: 0.9673% / 0.00967317 | ADC: 0.25x RC
27.2 Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Phocis_(n=4)
21.2 Italy_Lazio_IA_Etruscan_Civitavecchia_(n=2)
15.8 Iberia_Andalusia_EIA_Tartessian_(n=1)
14.6 Lebanon_MBA_Sidon_Canaanite_(n=5)
12.6 Lebanon_Hellenistic_Beirut_(n=2)
6.0 Iberia_Madrid_CA_(North_African_Profile)_(n=1)
2.6 Morocco_UP_Iberomaurusian_Taforalt_(n=6)
Target: Israel_Punic_(n=4)
Distance: 1.5871% / 0.01587058 | ADC: 0.25x RC
79.8 Lebanon_MBA_Sidon_Canaanite_(n=5)
9.4 Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Phocis_(n=4)
3.6 Iberia_Madrid_CA_(North_African_Profile)_(n=1)
3.0 Italy_Lazio_IA_Etruscan_Civitavecchia_(n=2)
2.6 Lebanon_Hellenistic_Beirut_(n=2)
1.6 Morocco_UP_Iberomaurusian_Taforalt_(n=6)
Target: NewStudyPunic_Avrg_(n=104)
Distance: 0.8518% / 0.00851799 | ADC: 0.25x RC
25.6 Italy_Lazio_IA_Etruscan_Civitavecchia_(n=2)
22.8 Greece_LBA_Mycenaean_Phocis_(n=4)
16.0 Lebanon_MBA_Sidon_Canaanite_(n=5)
12.4 Iberia_Andalusia_EIA_Tartessian_(n=1)
11.6 Iberia_Madrid_CA_(North_African_Profile)_(n=1)
8.4 Lebanon_Hellenistic_Beirut_(n=2)
3.2 Morocco_UP_Iberomaurusian_Taforalt_(n=6)
Well, couldn't it be that they're just finding it easier to model those ancient Punic samples with ancient Aegeans simply because they plot like Levant_BA-shifted BA/IA Italians and Southeastern Europeans? That'd be like claiming that Ashkenazi Jews are from Greece, South Italy and pre-Turkic Anatolia, with little or no Levantine admixture in them, just because they plot much closer to them than to Levantines, neglecting that a certain combination of ancestries can yield a genetic makeup very similar to that of an already existing and not directly related population.
An archaeogenetic study without any solid consideration of history and archaeology to evaluate the plausibility of different scenarios of gene flow and check the likelihood of the results of their statistical models can confuse more than it can enlighten.
@ Ygor
"Now, there is also this strange paper on the Punic colonies, claiming that the Phoenicians had virtually no genetic contribution to the Punic societies, despite the very strong Phoenician influence in virtually everything Punic: language, religion, economy etc. They claim that the Punic people had muhc more Aegean influence instead (I assume they mean Greeks and Anatolians). The thing, though, is that one can easily find substantial Levant_BA/Levant_IA admixture in most of the samples, and the averages have considerable Levantine admixture. And, of course, that makes much more sense than Aegeans from a cultural and socio-political point of view.
Well, couldn't it be that they're just finding it easier to model those ancient Punic samples with ancient Aegeans simply because they plot like Levant_BA-shifted BA/IA Italians and Southeastern Europeans? That'd be like claiming that Ashkenazi Jews are from Greece, South Italy and pre-Turkic Anatolia, with little or no Levantine admixture in them, just because they plot much closer to them than to Levantines, neglecting that a certain combination of ancestries can yield a genetic makeup very similar to that of an already existing and not directly related population.
An archaeogenetic study without any solid consideration of history and archaeology to evaluate the plausibility of different scenarios of gene flow and check the likelihood of the results of their statistical models can confuse more than it can enlighten".
I broke in pieces all the papers of Zalloua et al which pretended to find Phoenician ancestry in Italy and other Mediterranean countries (I supposed funded by a Rich Mexican through National Geographic), and also he pretension of European Jews to get Old Jewish ancestry. Actually they descended from the Imperial Rome (70% Italian, 15% eastern Europe and 15% Northern Africa, Middle East, Iran with no proof that they were "Jewish)...
@Ygor C.S.
Takarkori and Taforalt have the same sources but in different proportions, that's why it turns out like this
Is it the end of an era? After ~3 years without updates, Carlos Quiles' site "indo-european.eu" has gone plain-text, and none of the links work anymore due to an invalid SSL certificate. I suppose one head of the Indo-Uralic Hydra has been put to rest.
@Davidski
When can we expect G25 coordinates for the McColl article? Are you still planning to do a blog post on the article when it will be out (hopefully fairly soon)?
Do you have a link to the McColl data? If it's available I can run it.
@Finngreek
Quiles was an arrogant little turd, so it's great to see his precious project rot like a cadaver exposed to the elements.
But I fear that people like Krause, Lazaridis, Reich etc. are a bigger problem, because they've published some very strange papers and books that will be cited for many years to come.
I'm trying to think what can be done about that. These people need to face some consequences.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2073109779871984&set=gm.3971564723054899&idorvanity=1688636214681106
"And despite the widespread opinion of scientists who see haplogroup R as a typically Asian group, R could even have originated in Europe. This is suggested by the lack of typical Asian physiognomies. In any case, the R precursor group P first appeared in the Bulgarian Batscho Kiro cave 32,500 years ago. The find there is older than the oldest find to date from the Russian Jana and already bears three mutations on the way from P to R. The Jana people and the boy from Mal‘ta would therefore be the result of a very early eastward migration.10
The most numerous subgroup of haplogroup R today, R1b, is even more likely to have originated in Europe and can be traced early in Europe: from 12,000 B.C. in Italy, from 10,000 in southern France and from 9,000 in the Balkans and Latvia – but it does not seem to have played an important role at first. The oldest finds from Germany are about 5,500 years old, but, unlike a contemporaneous Danish find, belong to branches that did not continue to the present day".
Actually I think that these are the ancestors who migrated from the Alpine Refugium after the Younger Dryas to the Baltic Region like hg I (I-M223 clearly from Italy 20000-10000 ybp, I1+ oldest in Iberia so far etc).
Thus in this struggle of 20 years there are only a few winners, me and a few friends of mine who are fighting against Harvard and their sponsors… and also this book only in part true.
Carlos’ maps weren’t too bad , his site’s probably gone because one hasn’t pay for the web hosting
The new axis of disinformation, next to be annihilated, are two factions from GeneArchiver
1. The pseudo-Germanic cult pussyfooting around a retarded takes (Strider, ANI excavator, JMcB, Angles, other twigs) claiming to be IBD experts, but the only IBD they have en expertise on is irritable bowel syndrome
2. The Laz fetish club (Hurrian Fam, Sam Elliot, ArcherypeOne and other frustrated Habibis). They’ve gone quiet but have earned themselves at a severe arse whooping for being dumb but arrogant
Yeah, Quiles stopped paying the bills when he finally realized that he was talking shit to a bunch of fellow mental patients.
@Davidski
Oh I thought I included the URL, here you go:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB87274
As for Laz, I think he’s oblivious to the shortfalls of his model because he just doesn’t look at details and functions in a bubble based around his belief that Harvard are awesome, bolstered by an echo chamber of brown-nosers on social media & some Anthro fora
At least it’s not as much of a shit show there as the model proposed by Hegarty and Krause. That one is so bad that he doesn’t even warrant the effort of academic critique.
I think you should take a look at potential alternative SNP datasets to 1240K
I'm using ~300K SNPs in the G25. Adding some SNPs that aren't in the 1240K dataset won't change the results.
The problem is that many of the commercial files don't overlap well with each other, but I can't fix that by increasing the number of markers.
Using significantly more than 300K SNPs for this type of analysis isn't practical.
I more meant in just outright ditching 1240K for something else as a basis.
The analysis SNP set has to overlap with commercial files from different companies and reference datasets based on Illumina and Afx chips, so that's more or less the 1240K SNP set.
this faggot twitter banned me for writing anti-russian comments, i don't understand what kind of policy this Elon Musk has, he lets Russian bots, Russian pig dogs and bastards write insults, but at the same time, when they respond to the same insults, they ban me there, what kind of policy is this? and where is this freedom of speech? where is the american freedom of speech?
Was the later Bacho Kiro sample BK-1653 really ever confirmed as y-dna P*? According to this site he was K2a.
https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_dna/slideshow_samples.php?searchcolumn=Object_ID&searchfor=%&ybp=500000,0&orderby=MeanYBP&ascdesc=DESC
If he was really P that's huge news and totally blows the doors off P being some southeast Asian clade that some-how reverse migrated across continent.
Looks like most of the Lazaridis paper samples are now on FTDNA. Some of the Nikitin paper samples are still outstanding, which would include all the Sredni Stog, and the eneolithic Balkan samples.
Some quick hitters:
1. The Khvalynsk I-L699 is placed fairly upstream
2. Almost all the Don Yamnaya I-L699 are again placed under the Swat Valley I-L704 branch.
3. Predictably, all the Khvalysnk R1b is resolved for R-V1636, but the samples seem to have forced them to again reconfigure their tree for R-V1636:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-BY15339/tree
Target: Asega_wife_scaled
Distance: 2.2093% / 0.02209335
54.4 KK1__BC_7728__Cov_99.59%
33.2 Turkey_Hatay_TellKurdu_Chalcolithic
10.6 Russia_CaspianInland_EBA_Yamnaya
1.8 Mongolia_EIA_SlabGrave_1
My wife is a Svan from Zemo Svaneti (upper part). Can any of the Caucasian guys fill me in on the Slab Grave ancestry? Is this from Karbadian admixture?
@Davidski
I have no personal problem with Quiles, but I think his hidden non-apology "I was wrong" was not sufficient to balance the damage his misinformation did to the community over the years. I would have respected him more if he had said, "I will take down my info and maps to not mislead others", instead of begrudgingly fading into obscurity because he wants to "spend more time hiking". This kind of bad research lingers in discussions for decades after it's been disproven, from Wiktionary entries to new publications. But I agree with you: As much damage as he may have done to laypersons, there are greater offenders who can weaponize their professional status to spread falsehoods for the sake of funding. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what an appropriate consequence should look like. It is usually the nature of a disproven hobbyist or academic to avoid accountability - not only for their own research, but for how they may have mistreated others who disagreed with them.
@Rob
The main problem with Carlos' maps was the color-coding, which made it seem as if far-flung cultures were presumptuously connected, in order to align with his Corded Ware origin of Uralic. This led to false chronologies and correspondences, which were inevitably regurgitated by unknowing hobbyists, and academics who wanted to continue their own Indo-Uralic bias. It is a common trope in Uralic studies that an Indo-Europeanist with no prior Uralic background decides one day to waltz into Proto-Uralic for the sole purpose of promoting Indo-Uralic phylogenetics, rather than studying Uralic as its own discipline before making any hypotheses. To this day, Uralicists are expected to consider claims from authors like Kortlandt, who insists that PIE was a "heavily Caucasianized Indo-Uralic language". This research always goes nowhere, and wastes precious time that could be spent searching for other external relations with Uralic (or IE, for that matter). In short, it is a good thing that Quiles' maps are no longer available: They were Indo-Uralic propaganda.
Sorry for the extra comment, but I wanted to add onto my previous point about bad actors like e.g. Kortlandt. Just having looked up Indo-Uralic on WIkipedia, one of the first paragraphs is as follows: "Expanding upon his earlier hypothesis, Kortlandt (2021) proposes that Proto-Indo-European, rather than being a sister of Proto-Uralic, is a daughter of Proto-Uralic, and that Indo-European is a branch of the Uralic family. More specifically, he proposes that Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Finno-Ugric share a more recent common ancestor with each other than either of them do with Proto-Samoyedic. If valid, this would mean the traditional conception of the Uralic family (with Indo-European excluded) is a paraphyletic clade." This is what we have to deal with. If I were to try to edit or contradict this excerpt on the article as an editor, I guarantee that a senior editor would quickly usurp my changes, just because they wanted the excerpt to be part of the article. It doesn't matter that this misinfo is contradicted by the lion's share of research done within Uralic studies over the past two decades regarding intra-Uralic phylogenetics: We have to continue to pretend that Finno-Ugric - Samoyedic is a primary split, and that IE could be younger than this split, which is ridiculous. Still, people who don't know better will take this claim seriously when they first hear about "Indo-Uralic" on e.g. Reddit, and search on Wikipedia. Claims like this by old-school academics hold back the advancement of Uralic studies, while misleading the next generation. Anyway, we have to be more critical of authors who manipulate data, rather than make excuses for them.
The true borders of Russia. The video is in Russian, but I think everything will be clear even without translation🤝
https://youtube.com/shorts/YqRf4LXwayo?si=wuhS3LWUi5LBRihh
@Асега
the number of Svans is very small. and they have always had contact with the northwestern Caucasus, in particular the Balkars, Abazins, etc. (peoples who also have a high KK1 but at the same time one of the highest Asian components in the Caucasus). plus it could be directly from the Scythian Sarmatians
@Mr Funk
Yes, there are like 20-30k of them. The region is like one big dispersed village. I'm Frisian (not many of us either but a lot more than Svans).
Makes sense. I'm guessing the Yamnaya ancestry is also in part from North Caucasians? Meshoko had Steppe Eneolithic IIRC so maybe there's some old layer of Steppe present in the NW Caucasus.
@Асега
I meant about the asian component Slab Grave and the like, and not about the steppe or CaspianInland EBA component ,and yes, the steppe Neolithic are cattle breeders who lived first in the Caucasus mountains, then mixed with the EHG, and then spread across Eurasia
try your calculator for Dargins Godoberians Akhvakhs Avars etc.
@ Finngreek
Understood. More broadly, it is understandable for humans to want to classify, categorise and establish links, but taken too far it becomes reductionist. This imparts scholarship looking to establish Indo-Uralic and Nostratic superfamilies a bit of an amateurish quality, as it fails to appreciate the complexity of past societies. We've seen people on the internet trying to establish hyperdiffusionist links between widely separated and distinctive civilizations into an 'Ancient Aliens' meme. I'm not a linguist and have nothing against the Leiden school of course, but FK has produced some odd theories, not only for Indo-Uralic, but his dating of proto-Slavic to 3000 BC , or the view that Gothic groups migrated toward the Black Sea via the Elbe-Danube route rather than the 'Wielbark route', as examples.
Back to Uralic, I am very interested in the position of Saami. Although it seems it is generally grouped within the broader Finnic clade, I have hear tentative suggestions of a deeper layer linking to Samoyedic. I wonder if BOO group (which we know is strongly) contested by others elswhere) and the (at face value) similarity between Saami- and Samo-yed might be possible clues for this ? As we've seen in the case for proto-Germanic and perhaps some Balkan IE languages, the phenomenon of 'layering' or convergence of dialects or similar languages is underappreciated
I asked Grok this question, and that’s what AI answered me. Please correct if needed to:
“ I’m confused about the interplay between Afanasievo, Andronovo, Tarim Basin Mummies, Tocharians, Wusun, Yuzhi, the “Kuchan Empire” etc”
GROK: “ The relationships between the Afanasievo, Andronovo, Tarim Basin mummies, Tocharians, Wusun, Yuezhi (likely what you meant by "Yuzhi"), and the so-called “Kuchan Empire” (probably the Kingdom of Kucha or a mix-up with the Kushan Empire) are intricate, spanning archaeology, genetics, and history in Central Asia. Here’s a streamlined explanation of each and how they connect:
Afanasievo Culture (c. 3500–2500 BCE)
Who: Early Bronze Age pastoralists in Siberia (Altai region), linked to Yamnaya Indo-Europeans (R1b Y-DNA).
Role: Likely spread early Indo-European culture eastward, possibly Proto-Tocharian languages.
Connections:
Tarim Mummies: Once thought to be their descendants, but 2021 genetic studies show early mummies were local (Ancient North Eurasian, ANE). Afanasievo may have influenced Dzungaria, north of Tarim.
Tocharians: Best candidate for Proto-Tocharian speakers, migrating south via Dzungaria (e.g., Chemurchek culture).
Andronovo: Predecessors, sharing Yamnaya roots; Andronovo likely inherited some Afanasievo traits.
Andronovo Culture (c. 2000–900 BCE)
Who: Bronze Age nomads across Central Asian steppes, tied to Indo-Iranian speakers (R1a Y-DNA), known for chariots and metallurgy.
Role: Spread steppe culture widely, influencing Xinjiang.
Connections:
Tarim Mummies: Later mummies (1st millennium BCE) show some Andronovo ancestry, unlike earlier ones.
Tocharians: Not direct ancestors (Tocharian is centum, not satem like Indo-Iranian), but likely interacted, sharing loanwords.
Wusun/Yuezhi: Probable ancestors, contributing to their nomadic steppe culture.
Tarim Basin Mummies (c. 2100 BCE–1st millennium BCE)
Who: Agropastoralists in Xinjiang’s Tarim Basin, naturally mummified, with early groups (e.g., Xiaohe) showing ANE (72%) and Northeast Asian (28%) ancestry, not Afanasievo.
Role: Represent early Tarim settlers, culturally distinct but later mixed with steppe groups.
Connections:
Afanasievo: No direct genetic link; early mummies predate significant steppe influence.
Andronovo: Later mummies reflect Andronovo migrations.
Part/Vol. II on Grok’s answer re: interplay between Afanasievo, Andronovo, Yuezhi, Tarim Mummies, Kushan Empire, Tocharian languages sub-branch of IE languages:
“ Tocharians: Not Tocharian speakers themselves, but later Tarim populations likely included them after Indo-European migrations.
Wusun/Yuezhi: Nomads interacted with Tarim oases, but mummies were settled.
Tocharians (c. 400–900 CE)
Who: Indo-European speakers of Tocharian languages (A, B) in Tarim city-states like Kucha, documented in Buddhist texts.
Role: Represented a settled Indo-European culture on the Silk Road.
Connections:
Afanasievo: Most likely source of Tocharian languages, via Dzungarian migrations.
Andronovo: Cultural contact, not ancestry; Iranian loanwords in Tocharian.
Tarim Mummies: Later Tarim dwellers may have spoken Tocharian, but early mummies didn’t.
Wusun/Yuezhi: Distinct from these nomads; Tocharians were urban.
“Kuchan Empire”: Kucha was a Tocharian city-state, not an empire.
Wusun (c. 2nd century BCE–1st century CE)
Who: Nomads in Ili Valley/Dzungaria, likely Iranian-speaking, allied with Han China.
Role: Shaped regional power dynamics.
Connections:
Afanasievo/Andronovo: Steppe ancestry, likely Andronovo-derived.
Tarim Mummies/Tocharians: Traded with Tarim oases, distinct from settled Tocharians.
Yuezhi: Rivals, displacing them westward.
Yuezhi (c. 3rd century BCE–1st century CE)
Who: Nomads in Gansu/Dzungaria, later migrated to Bactria, founding the Kushan Empire. Likely Iranian-speaking, not Tocharian.
Role: Linked Central Asia to South Asia via the Kushan Empire.
Connections:
Afanasievo/Andronovo: Steppe ancestry, primarily Andronovo.
Tarim Mummies/Tocharians: Interacted with Tarim, but no direct link to Tocharians.
Wusun: Defeated by them, leading to migration.
“Kuchan Empire”: Founded Kushan Empire, not Kucha.
“Kuchan Empire”
Likely Kingdom of Kucha: A Tocharian city-state, not an empire, known for Buddhism and Silk Road trade.
Or Kushan Empire: Yuezhi-founded, controlling Bactria to India, briefly Tarim.
Connections:
Kucha tied to Tocharians, influenced by nomads like Wusun/Yuezhi.
Kushan linked to Yuezhi, distinct from Tocharians but interacted with Tarim.
Interplay
Early Phase (4th–2nd millennium BCE): Afanasievo spreads east, possibly seeding Proto-Tocharian in Dzungaria. Early Tarim mummies are local, with no steppe ancestry. Andronovo emerges later, expanding steppe influence.
Middle Phase (2nd–1st millennium BCE): Andronovo migrations bring steppe culture to Tarim, seen in later mummies. Tocharian speakers likely settle in Tarim oases, from Afanasievo roots.
Late Phase (1st millennium BCE–CE): Wusun and Yuezhi dominate north of Tarim, interacting with Tocharian city-states like Kucha. Yuezhi form Kushan Empire, while Kucha thrives as a Tocharian hub.
Key Dynamics: The Tarim Basin was a cultural crossroads—Afanasievo and Andronovo brought Indo-European elements, mixing with local populations. Tocharians emerged as settled oasis dwellers, distinct from nomadic Wusun/Yuezhi. Kucha and Kushan represent different cultural spheres (Tocharian vs. Yuezhi).
Clearing Confusion
Mummies ≠ Tocharians: Early mummies predate Tocharian languages; only later Tarim groups likely spoke them.
Afanasievo vs. Andronovo: Afanasievo is earlier, tied to Tocharians; Andronovo is broader, tied to Iranian nomads like Wusun/Yuezhi.
Kucha ≠ Kushan: Kucha was Tocharian, local; Kushan was Yuezhi, imperial, and far-reaching.
Wusun/Yuezhi: Nomads, not settled Tocharians, with Iranian linguistic ties.”
@Rob
Regarding BOO, I'd have to review the data, but IIRC I believe that the relative dating and absolute location of BOO are not compatible with the spread of Proto-Sami, which was a later event restricted to southern Finland (Aikio 2006: 40). In my theory (Helleno-Uralic), I connect the initial expansion of Uralic with the Ananyino culture: And Ananyino axe finds are found in northern Fennoscandia, especially along the waterways between Oulu and Suomussalmi. I'm not sure whether these sites can be connected somehow with BOO; but if these Ananyino finds can be connected to Uralic speakers, they would have spoken an unknown, lost branch.
The UEW (Uralic Etymological Dictionary) does list quite a few words common only to Sami and Samoyedic, especially regarding reindeer terminology, but these might instead be from a later contact period after Sami migrated north and Samoyedic west from the mouth of the Yenisei. I don't know of a publication that critically reviews those specific etyma; but Proto-Uralic is not reconstructed to have reindeer herding, so it might be a much later phase (I'm not concluding either way). In any case, the problem with the rapid diversification of Uralic is that virtually every branch has some features exclusive only two one or two other branches, which can be from coincidence or extended contact rather than phylogeny.
Do we have DNA for proto EHG from Murzak Koba, Crimea?
https://x.com/ancient_euro3/status/1911431714313732226
for some reason, judging by the shape of her face and skull, it seems to me that she was WHG
@ Finngreek
I am aware of the arguments against BOO, but they miss the point. BOO probably represent an early Uralic group in a plurilingual environment. In fact its chronology is perfect for the proposed early protoGMC -west Uralic language contacts. The issue of proto-Saami is slightly different. But Aikio's model of Saami spreading across Finland during an iron Age 'invisible period' is unconvincing, leaving one unsatisfied. That's not how you build robust and meaningful historic models, especially as he ignores the spread of Netted-ware related ceramics across eastern Finland during the MLBA.
Let's fact it - the entire Finnish linguistic approach needs a major revamp. It's built on house of cards, with fallacy upon fallacy, such as Fatynovo being Balto-Slavic, appeals to archeogenetically invisible 'language spreads' , biased scholarship with an identity complex, etc, etc
@Rob
I can't speak to whether or not Fatyanovo must be Proto-Balto-Slavic; but I think the "Northern Akozino-Malar" pathway for Proto-Sami is historically meaningful enough, considering how well a southern Akozino-Malar route would explain the arrival of Proto-Finnic to the Baltic. I'm not saying that BOO can't represent an early divergence from (pre-)Proto-Uralic - perhaps they could have been an offshoot from a predecessor of the Gamayun culture? This is starting to get outside of my scope; but I have a suspicion that the Gamayun culture might have been pre-Proto-Uralic (I have no idea how this might compare with BOO on an archaeogenetic basis, however). The Gamayun were technologically stone-age fishers and hunter-gatherers, which matches the lexical reconstruction of Proto-Uralic; and they lived in the northern Urals, which is not too far from BOO. Gamayun migrations may have been indirectly responsible for the formation of the Ananyino culture via Itkul migrations.
However, although I have no formal objection to BOO being somehow related to Uralic, it shouldn't be a primary factor for determining the evolution of Proto-Uralic, as there are too many glottochronological problems with IE (esp. Indo-Iranian) loans into Uralic to assume its presence in temperate Europe as far back as the Bronze Age. Netted Ware continuity does not match with rapid Uralic diversification, which can be supported linguistically, archaeologically, and genetically. The distbribution of IE loans would look much different if Proto-Uralic had been in extended contact with Germanic, Balto-Slavic, and Indo-Iranian. Regardless of where Proto-Uralic came from before it reached the Volga-Kama, it's clear we are dealing with a sudden influx (probably from Siberia).
@Mr Funk
"for some reason, judging by the shape of her face and skull, it seems to me that she was WHG"
This is the proof:
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1421036577967588&set=a.1101728646565051&comment_id=1187668455862846¬if_id=1744594852005894¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif
@ Finngreek
Sure the main thrust might be from later Ananyino-Malar groups, but there are no a priori genetic, archaeological or linguistic issues with BOO being an early form of Uralic . BOO dates to 1500bc, therefore after IndoIranian had developed.
I personally think nobody has really nailed this issue, the closest someone has come is a little known work “Golovnev A. V., Nomads of the Tundra: Nenets and Their Folklore. - Ekaterinburg: Ural Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, 2004” (in Russian)
It criticises the ‘pseudo-Hun’ and ‘ST reindeer warrior’ models currently in vogue among supporters of the Siberian homeland, which is broadly correct, but falters in detail.
Once we get more DNA from the forest zone of eastern Europe, we will be able to have some more objective anchors.
@Copper Axe
https://drive.google.com/file/d/186JWIvzNnGEJEoXAXySxoPRIY18xENaj/view?usp=sharing
You're a legend Dave, much appreciated!
@Rob
"It criticises the ‘pseudo-Hun’ and ‘ST reindeer warrior’ models currently in vogue among supporters of the Siberian homeland, which is broadly correct, but falters in detail."
Great share. I have been a staunch critic of this viewpoint as it just went beyond reason and logic. You could have made this argument if the Krotov-related main body of the ST were the Proto-Uralic speakers but they clearly were not. The current DNA samples should really have been the final nail for this framing as neither the main body or the bone armour warriors were significantly Uralic, but somehow it is still persistent. I guess heroic ethnogonic tales are to be required one has to accept that their linguistic forebearers were from the depths of Siberia...
On that note I found this archaeological work to be quite interesting:
https://www.academia.edu/104700207/Burials_with_Seima_Turbino_Inventory_from_the_Orenburg_Сis_Urals_chronological_paleodietological_and_migration_aspects_Arkheologiya_Evraziyskikh_stepey_No3_2023
I think Samus culture could be related to Uralic speakers somehow.
Distance to: Russia_Samus_Tatarka_BA:I20549
0.02880177 Russia_Krasnoyarsk_BA.SG
0.05522365 Russia_KolymaRiver_LN.SG
0.07084433 Russia_CentralYakutia_LN.SG
0.12919927 Canada_MDorset
0.13195228 Russia_LenaRiver_MiddleN.SG
0.13939322 Greenland_Saqqaq.SG
0.13967558 Canada_LateDorset.SG
0.14141322 Mongolia_Arkhangai_MLBAtoEIAorMedieval_o
0.14935027 Russia_AngaraRiver_EN.SG
0.15190961 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara_o
0.15205543 Russia_AginBuryat_N.SG
0.15212301 Russia_LenaRiver_EN.SG
0.15439065 Russia_LenaRiver_BA.SG
0.15940847 Russia_Buryatia_PreBronze
0.16109729 Russia_LakeBaikal_N.SG
0.16158590 Russia_AngaraRiver_BA.SG
0.16188682 Russia_KadalinkaRiver_N.SG
0.16189243 Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic.SG
0.16249430 Russia_Shamanka_EBA.SG
0.16263713 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara
0.16272289 Russia_Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA
0.16352956 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara.SG
0.16370943 Russia_Lokomotiv_Eneolithic.SG
0.16378537 Russia_UstBelaya_EBA.SG
0.16409107 Russia_Siberia_Lena_EBA
Distance to: Russia_Samus_Tatarka_BA:I20547
0.05701993 Russia_Krasnoyarsk_BA.SG
0.07553952 Russia_CentralYakutia_LN.SG
0.08239169 Russia_KolymaRiver_LN.SG
0.11247444 Russia_LenaRiver_MiddleN.SG
0.12071493 Canada_MDorset
0.12451080 Russia_LenaRiver_BA.SG
0.12850193 Canada_LateDorset.SG
0.12930765 Greenland_Saqqaq.SG
0.13085489 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara_o
0.13097226 Russia_LakeBaikal_N.SG
0.13211458 Russia_AngaraRiver_BA.SG
0.13276722 Russia_AngaraRiver_N.SG
0.13324879 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara
0.13325093 Russia_UstIda_EBA.SG
0.13465350 Russia_Siberia_Lena_EBA
0.13467103 Russia_Shamanka_EBA.SG
0.13541247 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara.SG
0.13722579 Russia_Kurma_EBA.SG
0.13825506 Russia_UstBelaya_EBA.SG
0.13885084 Russia_Karasuk_o1.SG
0.14122361 Mongolia_Arkhangai_MLBAtoEIAorMedieval_o
0.14424053 Russia_LenaRiver_N.SG
0.14471985 Russia_AngaraRiver_EN.SG
0.14510827 Russia_Kurma_EBA_o.SG
0.14685477 Russia_Siberia_Lena_EN
Distance to: Russia_Samus_Tatarka_BA:I20305
0.03245797 Russia_Krasnoyarsk_BA.SG
0.05526640 Russia_KolymaRiver_LN.SG
0.06179664 Russia_CentralYakutia_LN.SG
0.11811041 Canada_MDorset
0.12073174 Russia_LenaRiver_MiddleN.SG
0.12943524 Canada_LateDorset.SG
0.12946036 Greenland_Saqqaq.SG
0.13089875 Mongolia_Arkhangai_MLBAtoEIAorMedieval_o
0.13575025 Russia_AngaraRiver_EN.SG
0.13963560 Russia_AginBuryat_N.SG
0.14082646 Russia_LenaRiver_EN.SG
0.14377192 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara_o
0.14567465 Russia_LenaRiver_BA.SG
0.14602399 Russia_Buryatia_PreBronze
0.14930393 Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic.SG
0.14967039 Russia_Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA
0.15055992 Russia_KadalinkaRiver_N.SG
0.15074671 Russia_Lokomotiv_Eneolithic.SG
0.15115521 Russia_AngaraRiver_BA.SG
0.15138065 Russia_LakeBaikal_N.SG
0.15162343 Hungary_DanubeTisza_MAvar
0.15218003 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara.SG
0.15287509 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara
0.15294745 Russia_Shamanka_EBA.SG
0.15300868 Russia_KuengaRiver_N_2.SG
Distance to: Russia_Samus_Tatarka_BA:I10998
0.03023888 Russia_Krasnoyarsk_BA.SG
0.06390143 Russia_KolymaRiver_LN.SG
0.07834608 Russia_CentralYakutia_LN.SG
0.13504343 Canada_MDorset
0.13760280 Russia_LenaRiver_MiddleN.SG
0.14255437 Canada_LateDorset.SG
0.14575850 Greenland_Saqqaq.SG
0.14796985 Mongolia_Arkhangai_MLBAtoEIAorMedieval_o
0.15299402 Russia_AginBuryat_N.SG
0.15483521 Russia_AngaraRiver_EN.SG
0.15666933 Russia_LenaRiver_EN.SG
0.15910289 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara_o
0.16111535 Russia_LenaRiver_BA.SG
0.16497048 Russia_Buryatia_PreBronze
0.16549492 Russia_KadalinkaRiver_N.SG
0.16670249 Russia_Shamanka_Eneolithic.SG
0.16677960 Russia_KuengaRiver_N_2.SG
0.16764538 Russia_LakeBaikal_N.SG
0.16769455 Russia_AngaraRiver_BA.SG
0.16795439 Russia_Siberia_Irkutsk_EBA
0.16870736 Russia_Lokomotiv_Eneolithic.SG
0.16907094 Hungary_DanubeTisza_MAvar
0.16924874 Russia_Shamanka_EBA.SG
0.16983703 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara
0.17023776 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara.SG
@Norfern-Ostrobothnian
Those samples from Tatarka Hill are not from the Samus culture...
@Copper Axe
To be fair, the most complete example of a bone armour set comes from the "depths of Siberia"; in association with a Yakutia_LNBA genetic profile. With other examples known from both Glazkovo and Ymmyakhtakh cultures.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226339195_Burial_of_an_Ymyiakhtakh_warrior_in_Kyordyughen_Yakutia
Secondly, I don't think it's fair to characterize the argument as "beyond reason and logic". Obviously, Chernykh and Kuzminykh have argued that an "East Siberian" population constituted 1 of 2 major components within Seima-Turbino. Originally, they had Glazkovo in mind, however the material inventory belongs to a broader Circum-Baikal tradition, especially in the absence of more idiosyncrasy cultural elements (e.g. burial rite).
Given the present data, I am happy to concede that populations along the WSHG- cline and Steppe_MLBA groups were most prominent within Seima-Turbino in West Siberia and a simplistic connection between ST and PU is wrong. I don't see a compelling argument for why that should be any different in Eastern Europe, either. However, clearly Yakutia_LNBA groups were involved in some capacity. SK metallurgy seems to have had more staying power in the LBA Taiga.
For some reason this is a bitter pill to swallow for some, but I don't think there are any archaeological cultures that can be linked to the initial expansion of Yakutia_LNBA ancestry- as they are currently understood. At most, we can perhaps point to East Siberian "arrowheads and composite fishooks" found within ST contexts.
As a side note, I made a post here regarding the dating of ROT002. There is also some upcoming research on the published C14 dates from Rostovka that might change current interpretations a bit. I don't have more details, though.
https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?tid=82&pid=40088#pid40088
@ Rob
Again, I didn't say that BOO can't be somehow related to pre-Proto-Uralic. The glottochronological problems with Indo-Iranian loans into Uralic aren't relevant to BOO, however, since we have no idea what language was spoken there. The problem I'm referring to about pre-PII > PU loans is that there isn't a clear basis for them anymore, even according to proponents like Holopainen, because there is no phonological or distributional regularity: Archaic "pre-PII" loans have distributions limited to singular Uralic branches, while innovative "Iranic" loans go back as far as Proto-Finno-Ugric (which perhaps also then includes Samoyedic, although this is not well-evidenced). If anything, this agrees linguistically with your criticism of an ST Uralic model.
I likewise do not believe that the ST phenomenon was caused by Uralic speakers, as the Proto-Uralic speaker was unfamiliar with metallurgy, agriculture, animal husbandry, horseriding etc., which were all present in the Bronze Age Volga-Kama. This is why I said that Netted Ware continuity is not suitable for rapid Uralic diversification either, as Uralic branches only received loans for the aforementioned activities after their disintegration from Proto-Uralic. Still, a lot of research has happened since 2004 regarding the origins of Proto-Uralic, such as the location of Proto-Uralic to the upper Kama ~ Central Urals region, where both the European honeybee and Siberian pine were present (Häkkinen 2023, Parpola 2022). I don't always agree with what either author proposes, but this could (in my opinion, not theirs) likewise support Itkul > Ananyino migrations as the European entrance of Proto-Uralic, where western Uralic (~ Finno-Permic) could receive apicultural loans while still being connected to its Siberian roots. I'm always open to new DNA evidence for Uralic, which is how I ended up here in the first place; but there are other objective factors that can not be ignored, such as lexical restrictions and archaeological shifts.
@Rob
Wrapping this discussion up, I found an interesting paper by Tibor Török (2023), "Integrating Linguistic, Archaeological and Genetic Perspectives Unfold the Origin of Ugrians" (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/371935426_Integrating_Linguistic_Archaeological_and_Genetic_Perspectives_Unfold_the_Origin_of_Ugrians). Figs. 2 + 3 and their discussion summarize that "Gamayun" is basically Lozva-Atlym migration to the Itkul culture. Lozva-Atlym were riparian forest hunter-gatherers, which is the same basic lifestyle that is reconstructed for Proto-Uralic.
If you are a fan of Quiles' maps, he color-coded Lozva-Atlym in the same horizon as the Kyelmøy culture in northern Fennoscandia. Its ancestral culture (same color-coding) was Lovozero Ware during the time of BOO. Lovozero was a long-distance westward impulse ("Even-based arrowheads") across the Arctic from the Ymmyakhtakh culture during the Early Bronze Age. This is the same region where Yakutia-LNBA Y-DNA came from, which has been connected with Proto-Uralic speakers in Zeng et al. 2023. Torok 2023 assumes that the "Mezhovskaya-proto-Nganasan admixture" in the Itkul culture could be derived from Lozva-Atlym, although it needs more samples. If you stil have Quiles' maps, maybe you can work out a BOO-Gamayun connection by reviewing the "pink" cultures instead of the "blue" ones (which he had erroneously described as Uralic rather than IE). Let me know if you come up with anything.
Stalin was an Ossetian https://prufy.ru/news/society/167145-nastoyashchaya_dnk_stalina_chto_otkryli_uchenye_posle_ego_rasshifrovki/
@Zelto
Imagining the Seima-Turbino phenomenon as some massve Uralic conquest spearheaded by Eastern Siberian N-L1026 Bogatyrs was absolutely beyond logic and reasoning, hence why that scenario did not work out. None of the archaeologists stated that the ST phemonenon was spearheaded by "eastern siberian populations", only that they participated in it and that is exactly what we see in the genetic record as well.
The four Rostovka samples with bone armour plates (ROT016, ROT004, I32816 and I33398) range between 0 and 25% Kra001 ancestry and none have N-L1026 either, so I do not really see the association with Yakutia_LNBA directly in that context. Speaking of, wasn't the sacrificial victim rather than the bone armour warrior at Kyordyughen the one with the upstream clade of N-L1026?
For Davidski :
WHen I ordered the G25 many years ago, it was with the v2 chip of 23andme , now with the v5 chip will it make a difference in the coordinates ?
V2 is better than V5, with more markers and no imputation.
@ Finngreek
' such as lexical restrictions and archaeological shifts.''
Of course, this is why I believe the onus is on individuals to understand enough about every discipline and their limitations, rather than a groups of super-specialists merely glueing their own preconceived theories on top of each other in some form of ''collaboration''.
When I say netted ware, what I really refer is a package of Siberian-like industries which appear in the Urals and cis-ural zone sometime after 2000 BC- Lebyazhkaya, Atamannyr, Korshakov; some of which remained more rustic, others more influenced by Andronovo elements, and perhaps overall correlating with Janhunen's paleo-lexical reconstructions of archaic Uralic and Golovnev's 'paleo-cultural' recon. These even brought with them elements still recalling of the Ymyychktakh culture. These in turn influenced the formation of Netted ware (?post-Permic), but some moved west still in less adulterated forms (the 'wafer ware' variants in Kola you mention).
What brought them to the Ural and western zone is not clear,. Firstly, we need more proper dating, but they obviously had reached the very west by ~1500 BC. Perhaps some disintegration of Andronovoid groups and the former's mild integration with the S-T interaction sphere made them acquire western tastes
Yes Im aware of TT's paper. he's a great technical analyst, far better than me, but my views presently differ in some details.
Btw the sample CGG10726 from Trøndelag is quite interesting, an early Saami perhaps? It has about as much Kra001 ancestry as NEO538 and the BOO samples, and significant excess EHG. So it pretty much seems game over for the proposal that early Uralics migrated into Europe with a very mixed steppe_mlba/WSHG type profile.
I'm really curious about the profiles of the late hunter-gatherers in northern Scandinavia, perhaps the profile of this individual can be partially explained through contribution from those populations.
I'll write a short post on by blog/substack soon regarding some of these samples - will probably be mostly focused on the samples in the IBD cluster related to Scythians-Sarmatians but there are a bunch of other interesting points, like these, I'd want to adress as well. I wrote about them last year so it would be fitting to have a follow-up.
The paper labels the Tatarka Hill site individuals as a part of Samus culture. I couldn't really find a solid cultural attribution for the site, but it and Nefteprovod are pretty close to Samus culture geographically and chronologically. I guess it could be an undescribed archaeological culture.
Ananyino is way too young to be relevant for Uralic dispersal into Europe. It is contemporaneous with Gorodets and Dyakovo cultures which were definitively Finno-Ugric already, not to mention the dispersal of Baltic-Finns and Saami even westward.
@Norfern-Ostrobothnian
The attribution was an error, I talked the to lead author to clear this up and they were aware of this. I can guess how this happened, the later samples from the site had Samus-Khizorovo axes amongst their burial goods, but these were found in the Andronoid layers. Probably some terminology mixup occured, or someone jumped the gun in regards to equating Kra001 ancestry with one of the western siberian material cultures. The Tatarka Hill EBA burials are very similar to the Neftoprovod ones in burial rites, these differed from the Samus culture burial rites.
These Mazunino samples seem pretty close to Udmurts
Distance to: Russia_Boyasky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021459__AD_290__Cov_12.40%
0.03783154 Russia_Zaboryinsky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021458__AD_279__Cov_93.63%
0.04712249 Russia_Boyasky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021463__AD_270__Cov_41.75%
0.04839992 Russia_Boyasky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021460__AD_296__Cov_24.09%
0.05061728 Udmurt:udmurd8
0.05076574 Russia_Dubrovsky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021464__AD_299__Cov_54.29%
0.05212137 Khanty_o1:776_R02C02
0.05259441 Russia_Boyasky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021461__AD_288__Cov_72.39%
0.05605593 Russia_Dubrovsky_Mazunino_IA:CGG021462__AD_350__Cov_32.59%
0.05640159 Udmurt:153_R02C01
0.05703649 Khanty_o1:799_R01C02
0.05724949 Udmurt:udmurd15
0.05749417 Udmurt:udmurd10
0.05805977 Udmurt:520_R01C02
0.05908201 Udmurt:169_R02C02
0.06008858 Komi_B:GRC11049689_Komi001
0.06013656 Udmurt:udmurd12
0.06049808 Khanty_o1:GRC11049685_Khant050
0.06110581 Udmurt:152_R02C01
0.06152947 Udmurt:520_R02C01
0.06179607 Udmurt:udmurd1
0.06212528 Udmurt:udmurd14
0.06340687 Udmurt:154_R02C02
0.06415486 Udmurt:169_R02C01
0.06430413 Udmurt:154_R01C02
0.06453413 Komi_B:GRC11049690_Komi011
@Copper Axe
The existence of a FSHG cline ruled out any association between "Nganasan-like" ancestry and the livestock-rearing, tin-bronze metallurgists of the forest-steppe where ST developed. However, such a link was already hamstrung by the linguistic implications. It was always a question of -to what extent- Yakutia_LNBA groups became involved in the Seima-Turbino phenomenon after the initial stage of development and this required the early involvement of PII groups to explain loans related to technology. In hindsight, the latter is actually supported by the genetic evidence, but perhaps the extent of "East Siberian" involvement was overstated.
The "victim" is N-L1026 on FTDNA, but upstream on YFull, which is interesting because the latter is usually more conservative. The "warrior" is apparently N-M2019*. However, the link between the two is complicated by the radiocarbon dates, which suggest a 400 year gap between the two. Unfortunately, there is no nitrogen isotope data.
An undated burial with bone armour, attributable to the Ymmyakhtakh culture was found at Neftoprovod in Krasnoyarsk, though; it might be more relevant to the groups who ventured west.
@Rob
That better suits the spread of Yakutia_LNBA ancestry temporally. I think the Andronoid- zone will be, to varying degrees, mixed.
This is the kind of archaelogical reworking that is nessacary, since autochthonous arguments are so prevalent. Although, "Netted"/"Textile" ware has been found in West Siberia since the Neolithic. In the East, Ymyyakhtakh inherited it from the Belkachi culture. The technology used to create the imprints apparently differs as well. See Sidorov here: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/setchataya-keramika
It's also worth noting that the burials associated with Yakutia_LNBA ancestry at Neftoprovod 1/2 and Tatarka Hill are already culturally distinct and slightly more phylogenetically related to European N branches than the Ymmyakhtakh samples. Any thoughts on this?
@Northern-Ostrobothnian
Why would Ananyino be "way too young" if, according to you, it was contemporaneous with "definitively Finno-Ugric" cultures, and Finnic and Samic expansions? There are no significant phonological innovations in Finno-Ugric to suggest a large timescale for its disintegration, or even its phylogenetic nature. Ananyino appeared on the Kama, Chusovaya etc. ca. 1000 BCE, and arrived to the Volga by 800 BCE, which is the terminus post quem for Djakovo, Gorodets, Akhmylovo, and Akozino. From there, Akozino-Malar axes, tarand graves, and Siberian ancestry reached the Baltic by 500 BCE. Gamayun migrations began ca. 1000 BCE: So they could have easily contributed this ancestry. Furthermore, both the Gamayun and Ananyino practiced round-bottomed pottery, while the Djakovo and Gorodets practiced flat-bottomed pottery. Connecting Uralic with Djakovo-Gorodets in exclusion of Ananyino only works if one derives Proto-Uralic from Netted Ware and/or ST, which again is not logical on a lexical basis, and also outright ignores the major demographic events leading to the Ananyino culture in Europe as "noise".
It's clear that Proto-Uralic speakers were sudden newcomers (ca. 800 BCE) to an area already populated by IE groups that descended from local cultures already familiar with agriculture, animal husbandry, and metallurgy. I will say it again: Proto-Uralic did not have any of these features. In the past two decades, Uralicists already had to revise their dating of PU disintegration from 6000-4000 BCE to after 2000 BCE, on the basis of Pre-Proto-II glottochronology that has since been shown to be poorly-evidenced. When they are ready to re-revise another 1,000 years forward, we can finally have a parsimonious theory on Proto-Uralic disintegration which agrees with the bevy of interdisciplinary publications that have come out in the past 5-10 years.
Thanks for the McColl G25s. Much appreciated.
If anyone is interested, FTDNA introduced a beta version of their mtdna time tree a few weeks ago, but the only region with significant samples at that point, at least as far as I could tell, was Scandinavia.
Yesterday they seem to have added most of the Lazaridis' 2025 samples.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/mtdna/U/tree
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