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Wednesday, August 30, 2017

R1b-V88: out of the Balkans and into Africa?


Late last year I tentatively suggested that R1b-PF6279/V88, also known as R1b1a2, and formerly as R1b1c, may have entered Africa from Iberia, rather than from the Near East as is generally accepted, because of its presence in an Early Neolithic sample from Iberia (see here).

This is now looking a lot more plausible due to the recent discovery that the eastern Balkans was home to Mesolithic foragers belonging to R1b-PF6279/V88 (see page 122 here and discussion here) and indeed a pre-Neolithic R1b hotspot (see Mathieson et al. 2017 and González-Fortes et al. 2017). Note also the continued absence of R1b in the growing selection of prehistoric samples from Anatolia and the Levant.

So here's a theory that I think is worth considering for the time being: R1b-V88, and perhaps even R1b, originated in an as yet unsampled Balkan population, dating to the Upper Paleolithic and ancestral to the so called Villabruna cluster (see here), that eventually contributed ancestry to all present-day Europeans, as well as many present-day Asians and, via an Iberian route, Africans. Is there any archaeological evidence for the existence of such an Upper Paleolithic group in the Balkans?

148 comments:

bellbeakerblogger said...

Maritime Impresso! Conflated with LBK and credit for nothing. The people that get no respect.
What links NW Pontic with Northern Nubia, Sidon and Western Iberia? Boom.

Aram said...

R1b originated in Central Eurasia and from there had a strong post LGM expansion. This is why Villabruna has excess afinity to Han.
Also Iron Gates had mtdna H13 which could explain why Satsurbia and Villabruna converged.

epoch2013 said...

Might be interesting in that respect what Sunghir's results will be, as it by far the most eastern sample. Orlando-Seguin did a thesis on them, showing their Neanerthal admixture yielded a similar admixture date, which means they must have gotten enough for formal stats.

http://snm.ku.dk/forskning/kalender/ph.d.-defense-andaine-seguin-orlando/

I wonder when the results will be published.

mickeydodds1 said...

Isn't R1b Steppic in origin?

Come back Gioello, all is forgiven.

mooreisbetter said...

So you're saying that R1b was Mesolithic in Central Europe and that it was displaced in the Balkans with I2? LOL. Were the I2 invaders elites? Did they thunder in on their horses to dominate the R1bs?

Now you know how silly you sound when you say the opposite.

Davidski said...

@mooreisbetter

In the Balkans Mesolithic foragers rich in R1b were replaced by Neolithic farmers rich in G2a, and the farmers absorbed some of the forager DNA via female mediated gene flow. It's all in this paper. It's been out for a while, so why the shock?

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/the-genomic-history-of-southeastern.html

@Aram

Doubt it was Central Eurasia. Look at the latest results from the Balkans.

epoch2013 said...

Wouldn't the R1b place of origin also need to show the greatest diversity and the most dead ends in the old samples?

Ric Hern said...

The so called "Tropical" limbs of Villabrunas I would rather call Plains or Steppe limbs. More efficient locomotion on flat terrain.

So this points me towards an area with this features for the place of origin of R1b. Anywhere between the Southern Urals and the Carpathian and Hungarian Plains.

Rob said...

lol "steppe limbs"

Ric Hern said...

Well Rob look at the Nilotes and Cushites on the East African plains/savannah...

Matt said...

Hmm... I can't say this is wrong but couple points:

First, R1b-V88 clades in Chad branch at circa 17kya, so may be well be there before Mesolithic in Europe (12kya - 7kya). Villabruna clade enters Europe (and would have been in Balkans if idea true) in late Upper Paleolithic, so Mesolithic maybe not 100% precise.

Second, re Middle East, will say male sample size in even ancient Anatolia is not that diverse outside the Northwest (Barcin + Mentese).

At the moment for Anatolia we have:

Barcin (Northwest Anatolia, 6500 BCE - 5900 BCE): n = 12, G2a = 50%, H2 = 25%, I2C = 8%, C1a = 8%, J2a = 8%

Mentese (Northwest Anatolia, 6400 BCE - 5600 BCE): n = 3, G2a = 66%, I = 33%

Boncuklu (Central Anatolia, 8300 BCE - 7950 BCE): n= 2, G2a = 100%

Tepecik Ciftlik (Central Anatolia, 6700 - 6200 BCE): n = 2, G2a = 50%, C1a = 50%

(Ancient Anatolia Y - http://imgur.com/a/qwwdp)

R1b-V88 frequent groups in Near East could have been and gone by the earliest time periods we have (since the branch point's so early), or could still *be* in eastern Turkey or northern Fertile Crescent, as of the late Neolithic etc.

epoch2013 said...

@David

Previous post was a mistake

@Ric Hern

The paper which has been widely interpreted a Villabruna having "tropical" proportions compares these to contemporaries such as Bichon - which we now know is part of the same population. Also, the paper makes clear that Villabruna is on the path from "tropical" features towards "moderate" features and that it could very well have been on the tail end of natural variation in the population.

I think that is the case, as a contemporary such as Bichon - the pool Villabruna is compared with also contains 2 Epigravettian Italians, btw - is basically from the same stock.

Davidski said...

@Matt

First, R1b-V88 clades in Chad branch at circa 17kya, so may be well be there before Mesolithic in Europe (12kya - 7kya).

This sounds crazy to me. Can't see hunter-gatherers in both the Balkans and tropical Africa belonging to R1b-V88. Has to be one or the other, so Africa is already out.

There's evidence of two main migrations into North Central Africa from West Eurasia: from the Near East and the western Mediterranean. R1b-V88 had to arrive with one or the other. I'm betting it was with the second one.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23285/abstract

Note also that the earliest "African" mtDNA U6 is found in an Upper Paleolithic Balkan sample.

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep25501

Gioiello said...

@ mickeydodds1
"Isn't R1b Steppic in origin?
Come back Gioiello, all is forgiven".
And a friend of mine wrote me this privately: "Gioiello
I wrote a post last year saying that L23 could have origins in the Balkans. Whether that is correct or not the modern evidence points to an L23 expansion in the Balkans and L51 in west Europe. All we have to do is look at the TMRCA's for both.

What happened to Davidski? He must have something new.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.ie/2017/08/r1b-v88-out-of-balkans-and-into-africa.html"
Mickeydodds1, I am always here, and I have to thank Davidski for having always permitted me to write in his blog, as I thanked in the past Dienekes, is he or not Lazaridis. I am glad that many are more and more converging on what I am writing from more than ten yeras, even though not always recognizing that, but my enemies are silent now, from the Harvard and Stanford stocks, with all their power and computer boys to the less important Roy King and Ted Kandell. The secret was in having the courage in goiung against who seemed a victim of the history and not seeing that they always were the persecutors. All what you are saying now has been demonstrated by me from many years.
Matt said...
Hmm... I can't say this is wrong but couple points:

First, R1b-V88 clades in Chad branch at circa 17kya, so may be well be there before Mesolithic in Europe (12kya - 7kya).
Davidski
This sounds crazy to me. Can't see hunter-gatherers in both the Balkans and tropical Africa belonging to R1b-V88. Has to be one or the other, so Africa is already out.
There's evidence of two main migrations into North Central Africa from West Eurasia: from the Near East and the western Mediterranean. R1b-V88 had to arrive with one or the other. I'm betting it was with the second one.
Note also that the earliest "African" mtDNA U6 is found in an Upper Paleolithic Balkan sample.
epoch2013
I think that is the case, as a contemporary such as Bichon - the pool Villabruna is compared with also contains 2 Epigravettian Italians, btw - is basically from the same stock.

Rob said...

Neuther R1a nor R1b look like steppe lineages, as far as palaeolithic goes.
Morphologically, there is no such thing as steppe type either. Before Yamnaya, there were several "anthropological types", including some obviously eastern (ANE) types

Ariel said...

Villabruna as a cluster (or at least the bulding blocks of it) has to be much older than 12.000 BP, first there is the admidxture in El-Miron, and also we can assume that Villabruna split from Bichon/Goyet a long while back, since they are quite drifted.

Folker said...

Dave, thx for this post.
I've already posted about my pet theory on this subject: an European origin for R1b V88, and diffusion from Iberia (or Italy, but less likely) to Northern Africa, and from there to Central Africa through the Paléo rivers which existed during the Green Sahara. The most likely candidate to be the culture which diffused R1b V88 to Northern Africa would be the Iberomaurusian, given its connections to Iberia. Migration to central Africa could be connected to neolithisation and pastoralism.

Gioiello said...

@ Folker

"Dave, thx for this post.
I've already posted about my pet theory on this subject: an European origin for R1b V88, and diffusion from Iberia (or Italy, but less likely) to Northern Africa, and from there to Central Africa through the Paléo rivers which existed during the Green Sahara. The most likely candidate to be the culture which diffused R1b V88 to Northern Africa would be the Iberomaurusian, given its connections to Iberia. Migration to central Africa could be connected to neolithisation and pastoralism".

Of course the African R-V88 derived from the sample found in Iberia 7100 years ago (and I think come from Italy with the Zilhao migration of 7500 years ago). African and Middle Eastern samples are younger than 7000 years, most likely 5100 years and another subclades (V69) had its ancestor in Italy. Thus there were many migrations from western Mediterranean to Africa, and many thousands of years after the Iberomaurusians, who were linked to Europe, but very likely for hg. E-L19 and subclades.

xyyman said...

The MOST diverse form of R-V88 is in central Africa not North Africa. Central Africa R-V88 is MORE diverse than coastal Africa or the near East version. Stop the delusion. Sources cited already and deleted by Davidski

Davidski said...

Yeah, and R1a is most diverse in South Asia and that actually matters according to outdated scientific literature.

But like I say, it's outdated. So no one really cares anymore.

xyyman said...

educate me ...why is the diversity of a haplogroup/haplotype "outdated" when it comes to origin again?

Davidski said...

Because people travel and they take their Y-chromosomes with them when they do.

Thus, modern diversity may not, and probably usually isn't, reflective of where haplogroups originated, but rather where they ended up and/or survived best.

Show me an African forager with R1b older than the Balkan foragers rich in R1b, and then we'll talk, because since R1b was present in these European foragers, then it couldn't have been present in Sub-Saharan foragers, or any African foragers for that matter.

The entirety of the latest evidence that we have clearly shows that R1b-V88 arrived in Africa with foreign pastoralists from somewhere in West Eurasia, probably from southern Europe.

xyyman said...

I thought you were going to give me a "scientific" explanation not some "dreamed" up psychobabble about "what could of happened". You are starting to sound like Ric. With his vivid imagination. YOU DON"T KNOW!! Say it.

anyways -

You all do know that R-V88(over 17kyo) is pervasive throughout Africa including SSA even amongst the huntergatherers of the equatorial forest and deep in southern Africa. While R-V88 only “touch” southern Europe/Asia – like Iberia, Sardinia and the Levant . The connector or “entry” points to Europe. The pattern is consistent with what? The geographic spread from a central pool!!!! It does not reach Northern or far north West Europe or North East Europe. It also touch Iran.

Continue deluding yourselves. Entertain me with your delusion of a “male only” migration from some far off place in Central Asia for the origin of R1b-M269 when the Western version of this haplogroup is OLDER than Steppes version. When the women of western Europe carry lineage found in Africa and again is OLDER in Africa compared to western Europe. Continue the delusion.

This is really hilarious. You know you are starting to sound like a comedian now. Your site is now filled with “yes” men to toe- the- line. You should be embarrassed. This is NOT a scientific forum for critic type discussion.

mickeydodds1 said...

David,
Just how much ANE did these Balkan R1bs pack?

Romulus said...

These R1bs are responsible for the decrease in height we see from the Aurignacian/Gravettian to the Mesolithic.

Ric Hern said...

U6 was found in the Carpathians and I think the earliest R1b also will be found there....and some spread from there into Anatolia and the Ukraine before the Neolithic.

I think R1b (V88) was directly responsible for Cattle domestication and I can not see any other route for the introduction of Domesticated cattle than through the Levant and Egypt and up the Nile during the Early Sahara Subpluvial unless someone invented seaworthy boats that could carry cattle at this time....

Ric Hern said...

Yes Romulus and that is why I am 6'3 inches short. Heheheeeh. Just joking.

Ryan said...

@David - Wouldn't an Italian route by just as likely? I don't think the sea crossing in the Med would have been any wider than that of Gibraltar during the late Pleistocene. Iberia just seems like a longer route.

Folker said...

@Ric
R1b was probably absent from Levant until very late. Neolithisation in Northern Africa is very likely connected to Natufian, probably resulting in the Capsian Culture. This is probably from the Capsian Culture that R1b V88 arrived both in Central Africa and Egypt, and from there to Levant.
This is coherent with archeology, including Paleo hydrography and known modern and aDNA (at this time). Paléo rivers were oriented S/N, and the mega lake Chad had no connection with the Nile.

Romulus said...

@Ric

We'd be 7'3 by now if it weren't for you mongs. Probably breathing fire too.

Folker said...

@Ryan
The question is also about the cultural links between Northern Africa and Iberia. Moreover R1b V88 has also been found in Iberia. A route through Iberia is therefore more parsimonious.

Ric Hern said...

@ Folker

Yes anything is possible until ancient DNA clears up all the confusion.

Ric Hern said...

Whahahaha !!!

xyyman said...

quote: "Really can't wait for the North African Meso data".

For the male line. You do know the female line up to about 18,000ya has already been done by Kefi et al. 2014, 2016. Result? primarily mtDNA H and small amounts of U and traces of L. Get the picture?

xyyman said...

Nice come back! But a more intelligent reply would be. “R1b-V88 originated from Turkey and here is the proof. XXX et al 20XX”. But we all know that is not true and there is no proof except what I quoted. Can someone explain that to him? Davidski knows this that is why he will make up all the babble about fantastical migrations. I am not sure which is more imaginative . him or Ric. Proof about R1b-V88 from Turkey? You don’t have any …so please read and shut the F up!


Ric Hern said...

Last I have checked there was no Mesolithic DNA samples of Turkey available yet.....

Ric Hern said...

What is interesting is that the Neolithic village near where cattle were most probably first domesticated only dates to around 7000 bC. While cattle domestication dated to about 8500 bC. So there is a 1500 year gap....

Ryan said...

@Folker - it would have to be a Mesolithic entry into North Africa though wouldn't it? The Neolithic sample from Spain may be too late to be relevant. V88 is pretty widely distributed across the Sahel too - I would think the frequency should decrease more heading towards Sudan if it was from Iberia?

Ric Hern said...

At around 7000 bC. Domesticated cattle reached Southern Egypt...

Gioiello said...

You are all morons. This is my demonstration and, when I have time, I'll post also the updated one:

R-V88 from Italy: definitly demonstrated
R-V88 Z30230/Y7770 * V88/PF6279 * PF6332+59 SNPs15400 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 13400 10200 ybp" class="age"formed 17100 ybp, TMRCA 11700 ybp
" R-V88* "
" id:YF07201 [ITALY and UK]"
" R-M18 PF6372 * PF6319 * YP5453+34 SNPs "
" id:ERS256975ITA [IT-CA] "
" id:ERS256965ITA [IT-CA]"
" R-Y7777 SK2065/FGC21014/Y7777 * Y7768 * FGC21018/Y8460+10 SNPs10200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 11000 8200 ybp"" class=""age""formed 11700 ybp, TMRCA 9600 ybp"
" R-Y7777* "
" id:YF07902 GBR [and ITALY and France]"
" R-Y8451 FGC20993/Y7786 * FGC21063/Y7784 * FGC21033/Y8445+15 SNPs8200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 8900 6400 ybp"" class=""age""formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 7600 ybp"
" R-Y8451* "
" R-V35 V35 "
" id:ERS256961ITA [IT-CA]"

The R-V88 in Iberia (7100 YBP) very likely with the migration from Italy Zilhao spoke about.

xyyman said...

aDNa world-wide

Europe – 95%
Asia – 3%
Americas – 1.9%
Africa and the rest of the world – 0.1%

Now, what is your argument?

China has more people than the rest of the world so humans originated in….China not Africa. You are the most brilliant person here Gioello!

More is better.

Samuel Andrews said...

@xxyamn,

White people don't have recent origins in Africa, deal with it. We all know you want it to be true. I think most here, except nerds like Rob who like studying boring nerdy stuff, got interested in this subject because it relates to very real stuff important to the world like Ethnic origins and patriotism, genealogy, and yes race. Few people are here for the pure thrill of knowledge. There's a special meaning to this type of knowledge.

You're not a bad person for studying this stuff for a racial purpose. But your Europeans have recent African ancestry agenda is bad. You come to that conclusion before you even see the evidence.

JohnP said...

@xyyman
So, R* first appeared in the MA1 boy population, R1a and R1b appeared in European Hunter Gatherers and somewhat they are actually from Africa? Tell me how there's no older R1b than R1b-V88 in Africa? Did it appeared there magically? Of course not, populations with other types of R1b, even older ones also doesn't present African aDNA.
So, xyyman, you're full of shit. It was proved that Egyptians pre-Islamic Invasions, pre-Islamic Slave Trade had no SSA admixture and the same probably holds true for the rest of North Africa (we really need samples from there, I believe SSA admixture in West-North Africa might have appeared earlier than in the East, probably in Phoenician times, when they used to hire mercenaries from the South.).
R1b entered Africa with Eurasian pastoralists during the Green Sahara, not the other way around.

Stop with baseless and ridiculous Afrocentrism, R1b-V88 might have branched 17000 years ago, but not in Chad itself, outside of it - and this is also a "projection", it's not hard data.

Gioiello said...

I invited xyyman many times in the past to find African (or also Middle Eastern) R-V88 older than 5300 years from their MRCA as to YFull tree. Not only they aren't there, but Europe has subclades separated 11800 ya
R-V88 Z30230/Y7770 * V88/PF6279 * PF6332+59 SNPs 15300 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 13400 10200 ybp" class="age"formed 17100 ybp, TMRCA 11800 ybp
R-V88*
⦁ id:YF07201 (Sexton from Great Britain and Marchesi from Italy)
R-M18PF6372 * PF6319 * YP5453+34 SNPs
⦁ id:ERS256975ITA [IT-CA]
⦁ id:ERS256965ITA [IT-CA]
and 9600ya
R-Y7777 Y7777/FGC21014/SK2065 * Y7768 * FGC21018/Y8460+10 SNPs 10200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 11000 8300 ybp" class="age"formed 11800 ybp, TMRCA 9600 ybp
R-Y7777*
⦁ id:YF07902GBR (and Italy and France)
R-V88-V35 isn't only in Sardinia but also in Iberia now
_b2a2. R1b-V88 > SK2065 > SK2063 > V35
226093 Pero H. De Sotés Spain R-FGC21027
13 23 15 10 13-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 12 26 14 19 29 12-15-15-15 10 8 20-24 15 15 17 18 31-36 11 11
Africa hasn't samples older than 5300 years
R-Y7771 Y7790 * Y7779 * Y8439+12 SNPs 6000 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 6000 4500 ybp" class="age"formed 7100 ybp, TMRCA 5300 ybp
R-Y7771*
⦁ id:YF09700SAU [SA-01]
⦁ id:YF07492SAU [SA-01]
but also the R-V88-V69 huge subclade has its ancestors in Europe
R-Y21722 Y17712 * Y21722 4500 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 6100 4000 ybp"formed 5300 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybp
R-Y21722*
⦁ id:YF09752 (Avery and perhaps Italian Rosano)
R-V69 FGC39700/Y17711 * V69 4000 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 5800 3600 ybp" formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4700 ybp
R-V69*
⦁ id:YF02333SAU [SA-01]

The Jewish R-V88 cluster has it ancestors in Iberia and also Malta/Italy (Galea).

Matt said...

Davidski: This sounds crazy to me. Can't see hunter-gatherers in both the Balkans and tropical Africa belonging to R1b-V88. Has to be one or the other, so Africa is already out.

Eh, I don't think it's crazy that a HG population movement could bring a different haplogroup in (and population turnover). Happens in Europe. Well before pastoralism.

But who knows.

On a separate note, thanks for the link and have you blogged on this thesis in your post before - https://publications.ub.uni-mainz.de/theses/volltexte/2017/100001355/pdf/100001355.pdf? They found some pretty different things from Mathieson with regards to a larger set of Lepenski Vir individuals. (I can't really easily grasp a lot of other patterns of relatedness she discusses, which seem not so consistent with geography / main component patterns).

When_in_Rome said...

@ Davidski

So to clarify, R1b may have its origins in the Balkans, R1a in the Pontic-Caspian region of Europe, and Upper Paleo-Europeans carried R1b? How / When did R arrive in Europe and with what population? Also, what would this mean for Y-DNA "I" and its ancestor IJ? What was the Near Eastern affinity found in Villabruna (Fu. et.al.)? Villabruna didn't have any Basal DNA, so could this be evidence for a back-migration from the Balkans/Eastern EU to the Near East?

I read in the comments section of a previous post that Y-DNA IJ may have origins in the Caucasus region, before splitting into "I" and J, with "I" spreading with the Gravettian Culture from East to West.

Folker said...

@Ric
Obviously. We know that R1b is found in WHG, and that Iberomaurusian did have some European admixture given their mt haplogroups (cf Kéfi et al. 2005 & 2016, even if their results must be used with caution, given the technology they used). R1b V88 could have been present in Northern Africa before the Neolithic Subpluvial. Pastoralism became common in Northern Africa as an answer to the increase of aridity, with domestication of Bos and ovicaprids. The Central Sahara seems to have been populated initially from the North, and when desertification occurred, the South remained wetter longer, due to the presence of lakes. It's likely the population went South at this time. Moreover, I don't think that using present distribution (if accuratly known, which I doubt) to find ancient distribution of an Y haplogroup is very wise in such a context. We know that Africa suffered extreme climatic variations in the last thousands of years.

Davidski said...

@When_in_Rome

Upper Paleolithic Europeans definitely carried R1b, because we have direct evidence from ancient DNA for this.

The Balkans does look like a good candidate for the homeland of R1b and maybe R1. No idea where R1a originated; probably in the north somewhere. Have a look at all the latest ancient DNA data and make up your own mind. Btw, you might find this post interesting.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2016/05/following-mammoth-herds.html

Arza said...

@ Davidski

When_in_Rome said:
I read in the comments section of a previous post that Y-DNA IJ may have origins in the Caucasus region, before splitting into "I" and J, with "I" spreading with the Gravettian Culture from East to West.

1. I-J split occurs in the Caucasus, I - north, J - south
2. Most of the I's move into Europe, some of them stay near Caucasus.
3. Wave of Basal Eurasian ancestry reaches and crosses the mountains.
4. J and specific subclade of I are now autosomally identical to CHG/Iran_N
5. Fast forward to PIE - bearers of the "Basal" I clade melt with EHG/Farmers and form the steppe component.
6. "Basal" I clade becomes indistinguishable from the "non-Basal" ones in the DNA analysis (as we think that all of them were WHG-like) and now we are wondering who, how and when introduced CHG ancestry.

Which subclade of I could play such role? Is such scenario possible at all?

Arza said...

So for this scenario we need I subclade that:
- formation date is old enough to predate BE arrival
- TMRCA is late enough to be correlated with the spread of the steppe component
- does not appear in WHG or other populations not admixed with CHG and is bound to the IE speakers
- preferably is present in the Ukraine and neighbouring regions.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

There are many possibilities, since we know there are epiGravettian sites in the Balkans, Italy, and Western Anatolia. One place that does get overlooked, and should be investigated is the Carpathian region. This has the most actual temperate mammal remains outside of the Solutrean and Magdalenian sphere during the LGM. Since we see that only V88 is in the Balkans and Ukraine, it may be worth checking this region for diversification of R1 and likely R1b. Since we have pre-m269 in German MN context, it would be interesting to check the Swiderians as there are pre-M73s found in an East Baltic offshoot. M269 and M73 likely diversified in the South Baltic region. M269 will probably pop up in hunters in Poland or Belarus, IMO. We could even find a group of eastern Globular Amphora folks that have some R1b and minor R1a. Probably dead ends, but they will show the complex mixing of the early frontier between farmers and eastern hunters.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

The Mezin site in Ukraine, and Eliseevichi I in Russia might have some interesting stuff too.

Romulus said...

http://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/iron-gates-mesolithic

"Single inhumation was the norm; the dead were placed in simple earthen graves, often lying extended on their backs, but sometimes laid on one side with the legs and arms flexed. The skull was sometimes buried separately and, occasionally, groups of skulls have been found. "

Sound familiar?

Lee Albee said...

With the sea levels during the LGM and late glacial period movement between Italy the Balkans and western Anatolia would have been rather trivial. Add in northern glaciers http://www.univie.ac.at/ajes/archive/volume_102_1/kuhlemann_et_al_ajes_v102_1.pdf. And you have a broadly isolated area.

Also Croatia had a really advanced civilization with some early ceramics and proto pottery 17k years ago in Vela Spilla. This was an isolated offshoot of the more wide spe Epigravettian culture.

When_in_Rome said...

@ Davidski

Ah yes, the mammoth article makes sense on how Paleo-Europeans would carry R. And so, the Villabruna connection to the Near East seems to be ANE related? Could we conclude that Villabruna and ancestors / WHGs were native to Europe? Also, ANE contributed R to Europeans, but where did the ANE receive their Y-DNA, was it from Proto-Eastern Eurasians / ENA (moving West from East Asia or moving North from South Asia)? And any idea on what would be the timeline of that ENA DNA in ANE? Finally, if R is found in Eastern Europe in the Paleo era, where is "I" found in your opinion? I thought initially I would be a Balkan population that moved North, but if R was in that region, can't see I also being there.

@ Arza

I don't know if you're asking me to clarify or explaining it to me, haha. Regardless, I don't know how plausible this scenario is.

I could see it possible that IJ originates in the Caucasus region, with I moving to Europe, J to the Near East, since I looks to be found in some Paleo-Europeans (Gravettian sample from Italy circa 35,000 years ago), so I don't think it originated recently from the Near East (i.e. post Ice Age). Plus, there doesn't seem to be any Basal ancestry in Europe until the Neolithic era, ruling out mesolithic migrations from the Near East. Also, according to David's topology for West Eurasians, CHGs look to be mainly European-related with some Basal ancestry, so I can see this scenario happening. To the best of my knowledge, CHGs looked mostly J. In point 6 you said that Basal I-carriers and non-Basal I carriers would show affinity because of this movement, which could make sense too. But I don't know. As for which subclade, wouldn't it be very basal-I? Similar to how the Mal'ta boy's R clade was very basal. Was there any PIEs carrying I prior to their migrations?

@ Arza , Chad Rohlfsen

It would be interesting to see a map that lays out the possible Y-DNA and mtDNA of ancient populations in Europe to better understand which regions contained which ones. EpiGravettian sites in the Balkans, Italy, and Western Anatolia could lay claim to a Caucasus origin for IJ, if we can find any I in the Balkans in Anatolia. I said above that I originally thought I was a Balkan population, my reasoning would be that the Balkans seem to have a lot of I-carriers today and since SHGs had I.

Davidski said...

@When_in_Rome

I don't think the affinity between Villabruna/WHG and modern-day Near Easterners is just mediated via shared ANE ancestry, or indirectly via other types of non-basal stuff, I actually think that Near Easterners have some direct Villabruna/WHG ancestry, probably from a variety of sources. See the qpGraph tree here, in which Barcin_N from Anatolia shows input from the WHG clade.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2017/07/working-topology-for-eurasian.html

And I don't know where I originated. Probably somewhere in southern Europe, and I wouldn't discount the Balkans as its homeland even if R1 also came from the Balkans.

Karl_K said...

@Samuel

"I think most here, except nerds like Rob who like studying boring nerdy stuff..."

Rob is one of the more interesting commenters here. Definitely not boring. I also largely disagree with your assumptions of why people here care about this stuff. Many of us care simply because there are amazing puzzles of history being solved. Puzzles that were even quite recently thought to be far beyond all limits of historical knowledge and scientific testing. It is fascinating stuff, not nerdy at all.

Rob said...

@ Chad
Yes I see something similar too wrt M269 and V88 split.
One minor point, the carp basin becomes rather bare between 17-13 ky BP, so the eastern wing of colonisation of Baltic ("Swiderians") might have come from NW Ukraine / Molodova.
Really need some north European LuP & early Meso stuff. Back deduction is risky because of multiple depop/ repop events in the colonisation of north european plain, south Scandinavia and U.K in the successive Hamburgian/ Federmesser/ Tanged point phases

Al Bundy said...

The maximal diversity of R1b is, as Rob has pointed out previously, in SE Europe.It's nice to see the Balkans finally getting some attention this year with the Reich lab paper.

When_in_Rome said...

@ Davidski

Yes, I saw your qpGraph tree, and it does seem, based off of this, there was some back-migration from Europe to the Near East, which makes sense now. It would also make sense for there to be a Southern European homeland for Y-DNA I since one Italian sample from about 35,000 years ago carried I.

Gioiello said...

@ Al Bundy

"The maximal diversity of R1b is, as Rob has pointed out previously, in SE Europe.It's nice to see the Balkans finally getting some attention this year with the Reich lab paper".

I wouldn't say "with the Reich lab paper", even though the same Reich and Pinhasi are amongst the authors. It seemed to me that these two groups quarrelled a lot before publishing their two papers, and all these R1b in the Balkans comes from the paper of Mathieson, whereas the Olalde one was intended to demonstrate that BB from Germany came from Samara and not from the Balkans or Western Europe (I mean Italy above all: always not tested: 6 samples only), whereas Pinhasi has 50 samples from Italian palaeolitic onward. Above all in these papers no hint about what the same Davidski said above: "I don't think the affinity between Villabruna/WHG and modern-day Near Easterners is just mediated via shared ANE ancestry, or indirectly via other types of non-basal stuff, I actually think that Near Easterners have some direct Villabruna/WHG ancestry, probably from a variety of sources. See the qpGraph tree here, in which Barcin_N from Anatolia shows input from the WHG clade".
Which is the kernel of my theory of an "Italian Refugium": Balkans are very close to Italy from so long...
Someone took up knitting, next Reich will take up to the Central Asia.

Al Bundy said...

Well good for you I'm glad,like I said, that they're moving onto areas that have been given short shrift in Ancient DNA.What's up with Italy, which is right up your alley? Wish we'd see some Roman stuff

Aram said...

R1b-V88 crossing from Europe to Africa is realistic. It could even cross via Italy and not Spain. Then move to Egypt, there he could shift to Afro-Asiatic and reexpand toward Chad as Chad speakers.
But R1b originating in Balkans. Hmmm. I would like to see more ancient DNA from relevant places before believing in that. Note that few years ago the most popular idea was that R1 came from Siberia (Mal'ta boy). Back then I was also sceptic about that.


Aram said...

And where originated R1a?

Ric Hern said...

I wonder if a Language with VSO wordorder spread from the Balkans and influenced Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers during the Mesolithic ?

Basque that could be a Neolithic Language does not have a VSO wordorder and also PIE didn't seem to have it yet Irish does.

In a paper I read about this it is clear that Celtic was not influenced by Afro-Asiatic. This made me think that this could be either a resent development or something very old.

Maybe WHG people spoke a VSO language....

Gioiello said...

@ Aram

I think that it is more and more clear that R1 was born in Central Asia and was the haplogroup of the hunter-gatherers of the Siberian corridor. When I spoke of an Italian Refugium I said that it happened during the Younger Dryas or a little before. Now we know that R1b1 was in Villabruna 14000 years ago and later in the Balkans and Eastern Europe. That R1b were linked to a Southern European Refugium and R1a to a Northern European one is said from so long, and it seems that also Davidski agrees now. This doesn't exclude that also some R1b1a2-L23 subclades expanded from Northern Europe or from places close to the Isles. Certainly Italy-Switzerland-Southern Germany had a part.

Al Bundy said...

Has Bell Beaker R1b been linked to Yamnaya R1b? The Olalde preprint says they had a lot of steppe ancestry and it seems to be accepted that Celtic came ultimately from a steppe expansion.

epoch2013 said...

WRT Y-DNA I, the oldest we have is from Pavlov1, a Gravettian from Moravia that also had mtDNA U5. There are a number of Gravettian CT's though that still could be I, IIRC, one of which is from Cioclovina.

Gioiello said...

@ Al Bundy
"Has Bell Beaker R1b been linked to Yamnaya R1b? The Olalde preprint says they had a lot of steppe ancestry and it seems to be accepted that Celtic came ultimately from a steppe expansion".

If they have those data, that they publish them. So far we have from Yamnaya some old subclades till R-L23-Z2105, very likely someone survived in some Eastern subclades like R-L277, R-L584, R-CTS7763, R-M73-M478, R-M269-PF7562*, R-KMS75, but no R-L51 or R-L51-PF7589 has been exhibited, and the paper of Balanowski et al. disproved that these haplotypes were the ancestors of the Western Europen ones. We are here. We are waiting.

Rob said...

@ Aram & Gio

I agree. P343 splits in Central Eurasia, with early branches in Bhutan etc
The west branch L754 was more successful. So instead of "origin" the question is where it began to proliferate and diversify. Modern data suggests a "southern" area from Italy to southern Caucasus, but this would require it to have arrived between 30-20 kyBP, ie before arrival of "Basal Eurasian" to Anatolia and Caucasus. A simpler explanation could be via a Northern, Black Sea route

On the other hand, R1a seems a boreal Clade, largely restricted to NEE, apart from certain episodes of venturing west and south (CWC, Slavs).

Rob said...

^ sorry, M343.

Ebizur said...

According to my current understanding, almost every known member of R1b-M343 whose lineage is basal to the MRCA of R-V88 and R-L389 belongs to a single branch, R-PH155.

Do you know the TMRCA of those scattered members of R-PH155 who currently live in the circum-Himalayan region? If their TMRCA is relatively recent, we should rather consider a possibility that R-PH155 may have been introduced to the area by someone affiliated with the Indo-Iranians or the so-called Tocharians who happened to belong to an unusual paternal lineage.

On the other hand, if their TMRCA is close to the TMRCA of R-L278 as a whole, then that would be stronger evidence for a very ancient presence of R-PH155 in the region, and should make us consider a possibility that R-L278 itself may have originated somewhere nearby.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Yes. We've talked about the Ukrainian and Moldovan group a few times. The pop at 24-21 kya is what really interests me. It's difficult to say that Ukraine at 11-12kya is anything but V88.

I'm not certain that the Carpathians are bare. There seem to be mobile camp sites. I'll send you something I've read recently.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Italy is out for expansion. Too few sites and Magdalenians stomped right over it as if nothing was there.

epoch2013 said...

@Chad

Wasn't Italy considered Epi-Gravettian rather than Magdalenian?

Gioiello said...

@ Ebizur

Meanwhile we are waiting that Chad Rohlfsen reaches his Harvardians in Central Asia for searching R1a (but really hoping in finding some old R1b) I may answer your question:
1) when I made Raza and Joshi from India test for L389, and they resulted negative, I said that those Asian haplotypes had nothing to do with the Western European ones, being the highest variance of R-L389+ in Italy (all the 4 subclades), and I thought that they could be even old
2) but now we know that they are brother clade of R-M335 (hugely in Italy and Central Europe) and that they separated only 7300 years ago and these Asian subclades are very recent (not more than 5800 years) and may have come from everywhere: not only Tocharians, but also with the expansion from Samara to Central Asia, etc. They are irrelevant for our question of the origin and expansion of R1b1 etc.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

At first, yes. Magdalenians came through later. EpiGravettian in Italy isnt old enough for the V88 split either. It's a destination, rather than origination.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Nothing of the sorts going on that I know of. I wouldn't know if they were doing that anyway. Modern variance is pretty useless, especially for Italy having later Balkan and West Asian flow. Ask Iberians how well modern variance worked out with the Bell Beaker paper... Not at all. It's pointless. People don't stay static. Founder effects are obviously quite common.

Italy isn't important at all in the grand scheme of things. Plain as day to anyone with archaeological understanding and the least bit of discernment.

Gioiello said...

@ Chad Rohlfsen

"At first, yes. Magdalenians came through later. EpiGravettian in Italy isnt old enough for the V88 split either. It's a destination, rather than origination".
I am certain that at least you won't do harakiri, because you hadn't labs, funds, PhDs and all the messianic investment, but your stupidity demonstrates that you weren't able even for the low level of the Harvardian PhDs.
R-V88 Z30230/Y7770 * V88/PF6279 * PF6332+59 SNPs15300 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 1340010200 ybp"formed 17100 ybp, TMRCA 11800 ybp
R-V88*
⦁ id:YF07201

R-V88 separated 11800 years ago and survives in Great Britain (YF07201 is Sexton) and in Italy (Marchesi: that FTDNA tested M269 firstly: hahahahahahahahahah). We were during the Younger Dryas, just when people was going to come out from the Italian Refugium.

xyyman said...

Quote:
“We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of ****the Neolithic expansions****. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting
that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa”

explain this to me. And don’t let that VMAT1 gene get the better of you!

Also this.

“The Toubou, despite their Islamic faith, do not show the genetic admixture detected in many Near Eastern and North African populations around 1,100 ya”
“Eurasian backflow into Africa thus appears to have been a recurrent event in the history of many Africans, given its considerable impact on their genomes”
“This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture”



xyyman said...


Quote:
Nevertheless, Villabruna 1, more then the majority of his contemporaries,[b] retains climatic adaptation typical of the ancestral African [/b]population.

quote:
These data suggest that while Villabruna 1 retains more ancestral condition indicative of African origin than its contemporaries, this specimen fits well in the microevolutionary process that affected European Upper Paleolithic populations leading to the progressive acquisition of body proportions typical of temperate regions.

quote:
However, mitocondrial DNA analyses carried out on prehistoric human remains from this region highlighted in[b] Villabruna 1 a sequence not observed in contemporary European populations (Di Benedetto et al., 2000),[/b] raising the possibility of genetic discontinuity between the last hunter-gatherers from the Alps [b]and subsequent populations. [/b]


xyyman said...


I hate to burst your bubble. But this is the reality. Sorry to be the bearer of news you don’t want to hear but here it is. This is not fantasy nonsense. This is the reality …sorry bro….I think
You can believe it or you don’t have to. Doesn’t make any difference in the real world or the FACTUAL world. I hope you and others understand what I am quoting below. Hit me up if you have any questions. Otherwise …dream on
----

Human population dispersal ‘‘Out of Africa’’ estimated from linkage disequilibrium and allele frequencies of SNPs - Brian P. McEvoy, 2011

We use the empirically observed genetic correlation structure (or linkage disequilibrium) between 242,000 genome-wide single nucleotide
polymorphisms (SNPs) in 17 global populations to reconstruct two key parameters of human evolution: effective population
size (Ne) and population divergence times (T).

Estimates of divergence times between European–African and
East Asian–African populations are inconsistent with its simplest manifestation: a single dispersal from the continent followed
by a split into Western and Eastern Eurasian branches. Rather, population divergence times are consistent with SUBSTANTIAL
ANCIENT GENE FLOW TO THE PROTO-EUROPEAN POPULATION “AFTER” its divergence with proto-East Asians, suggesting distinct, early
dispersals of modern H. sapiens from Africa. We use simulated genetic polymorphism data to demonstrate the validity of our
conclusions AGAINST alternative population demographic scenarios.

We explored human LD patterns using approximately 242,000 SNPs across the genome in 17 population samples from across the
globe. We used these to reconstruct two key parameters of human evolution: effective population size (Ne) and population divergence
times (T), and through these track the emergence and dispersal of our species ‘‘Out of Africa’’ and beyond. In addition, we used simulated
genetic data to evaluate the performance of parameter estimators across a range of population demographic models.

However, there is evidence for a SMALL INCREASE IN THE WEST AFRICAN YORUBANS (YRI) ;8 KYA, COINCIDING WITH DECLINES in the East African
Maasai (MKK) and Lubya (LKK) populations at the same time (Figs. 2, 3B). From ;25 KYA, all non-African populations start to expand,
and distinct growth trajectories become apparent moving toward the present, reflecting the emergence of each population as a separate
entity (Fig. 2).

While the exact bias is difficult to estimate (Sved et al. 2008), it appears that post-divergence migration rates from Africa
to Europe would need to be approximately CONSTANT because we observe consistent ratios of TF and TLD at different genetic distances.
Thus, the observations are suggestive that GREATER MIGRATION TO EUROPE FROM SUB-SAHARAN AFRICAN HAS BEEN A LONG-TERM PHENOMENON.
Y-chromosome and mtDNA lineages are generally highly differentiated between continents, making them powerful genetic
markers of intercontinental migration.

Rob said...

There was no magdalenian in Italy, Chad , have you come across anything otherwise ?

Chad Rohlfsen said...

You're a comedian. V88 likely formed at least 18-19kya. You don't even know that! LOL. You don't know 1/10th of what you pretend to. Then, when you're confronted with anything that questions what you believe you go all ad hominem. So, as you remind me of someone else that behaves in this manner, you will from this day forth be known as Trump-ello. Good day, sir!

Gioiello said...

Trump is someone of yours, not mine, and that stupid who named against me another Italian is very likely in the asylum where it is the place for him. We'll see next where will be all the power of your paper tiger not only against Korea but with all the Russian battery pointed towards Pacific and North Pole. We'll see where will bring you your bosses who don't come from the Whigh Island and their three minutes state.
You dont know either that "formed" is a thing but the MRCA is when two subclades separated. You are nothing, neither a smart blogger, because what you write is only an Albionic spite.

Bob Floy said...


This has to be one of the funniest threads of the year.

xyyman said...

No intelligent or scholarly rebuttal!? Thought so. Makes notes before Davidski deletes these informative posts. Some of you are like "talking heads". Love hearing your own echo. The truth will shatter your frail psyche! These researchers no what I am posting is the TRUTH. That is why the refuse to sample abd run test with the best representative populaton. That is why the Skip over K2, K3 and K4 when the run admixture charts now.

Continue believe these BS Steppe nonsense.

xyyman said...

BTW - where is Capra. I am tracking down R1b-92R7 in Cape Verde. Is it Portuguese? We already know R1b was found in PRE-COLONIAL Canary Islanders. Implication?

I just came across research that Cape Verde occupied BEFORE the Portuguese?

Implication?

Bogdan said...

R1B likely originates around 18-20k ya and the general cline for the clade that has become so dominant in W. Europe over thousands of years of migrations and admix, is from east to west. This "born in Italy or Iberia" nonsense is nothing but nationalistic, insecure macho pride bunk.

The 'birthplace' of R1b is, and likely always will be rather speculative. Your not going to find enough ancient DNA evidence to make a conclusive case.

What you can do however, is apply common sense. Fact is, an HG from 14k ya could easily travel on foot from E. Irkutsk region to Villabruna naturally following big game in about 6-7 months on foot. From Samara region to Villabruna in 2-3 months, walk in the park. Conversely, back and forth over all areas in between, north, south, east, west, you follow natural game routes and follow the food. You settle were life is good/easier for awhile, until you tap that resource out, or have more competition and then you pick up sticks and move on...

And for the S European nationalist here, just remember, there would have never been a Roman Empire until enough P-297 was squirted in from the east. Italy is for lovers.

Al Bundy said...

But pizza did come from Italy right? Or what is now Italy...at any rate pizza all by itself is worth at least a few y haplogroups.

Karl_K said...

Pizza originated on the African steppe. Everyone knows this. But it was only possible after the migration of tomatoes from their place of origin in the Americas.

Al Bundy said...

Ok I can't top that one you win.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Bogdon, others.

I think what it is is Gioello is from a different time. Gioello's probably developed his Italy=place of origin of R1b 10-15 year ago when academia, genetic testing companies, and amateur forums only cared about how evens in the Paleolithic helped form human genetic diverity.

You can see the mind set people were in back then by reading the papers published during that time. The assumption was modern people decend from the first humans to ever set foot on their land. No one wanted to think through the complex migrations and gene flow that could have occurred in already populated land thousedns of years after the Paleolithic.

In those days of genetics Ethnic groups and regions gained esteem by being the location from which early humn migrtions orignted. Basque back then were gods, people praised them because everyone thought the European gene pool orignated in the Paleolithic Basque country. Today ethnic groups and regions gain esteem by being the decendants of invaders who wiped out natives. Today the PIE Steppe warrior gets the most esteem.

Gioello wants his country of Italy to be the Paleolithic origin of this and that because back in those days that's how ethnic groups/regions gained esteem.

Samuel Andrews said...

I'm gonna put up a brand new mtDNA blog in a few weeks titled "The mtDNA Expert".

My first post will be a mini paper that essentially proves a big chunk, maybe most, of European mtDNA is Neolithic Anatolian, arrived from Anatolia with farming.

No one in academic has looked into what the implications recent ancient DNA papers have on mtDNA.

There will be all kinds of never before seen data and ideas in the post. If this is a hobby of yours it'll probably be the first groundbreaking thing relating to European mtDNA you've seen in many years.

Bogdan said...

Tend to agree. But also trying to trace near precise ancient homeland / early DNA clade origination in Paleolithic will never be more than highly speculative and furthermore, it is quite boring and not very relevant.

Davidski said...

@Al Bundy

Pizza is an Italian interpretation of an ancient Near Eastern dish. Forget what it's called. You can probably look it up.

That sort of thing is pretty normal. It's how many seemingly original recipes have come about.

Bob Floy said...

@Karl

"Pizza originated on the African steppe. Everyone knows this. But it was only possible after the migration of tomatoes from their place of origin in the Americas. "

I am saying from ten years that pizza came from the Italian refugium.
Soon my victory will be complete.

epoch2013 said...

@Bob Floy

Pizza originated in the America's. How else could it have tomato sauce on it? It is a no brainer. But Western scholars are craftier. They invented out-of-Italy to hide their racial biases. It's called "repackaging."

Bob Floy said...

@epoch2013

"Pizza originated in the Americas. How else could it have tomato sauce on it? It is a no brainer. But Western scholars are craftier. They invented out-of-Italy to hide their racial biases. It's called "repackaging."

Clearly you have not read my 100,000 letters to the Jewish Harvard cabal.
Read them and you will see why Anthrogenica banned me for telling the truth about pizza.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Persian soldiers under Darius ate a pizza-like dish, but only after they left their Italian Refugium. For this I have demonstrated great proofs!

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Rob,

Tomorrow I will send you some stuff on the Magdalenian presence in Italy.

Bob Floy said...

@Chad
I am saying from many years that the story of Darius is a Levantist lie. Read at least my first 10,000 letters, maybe then you will see the truth.

Gioiello said...

I am a writer and a poet lent to genetics, but also about this plane I have to say that you are very mediocre in your irony: cheap and discounted. Also about that how may you believe to win against me, and I am not writing in my language?
Learn: Ted hidden in the Asylum, the Russian battery, a "three minutes state" are metaphors which open a world, as a poet may do.

Davidski said...

@Gioiello

Please don't discuss the identities of the posters here and name names.

pequerobles said...

oh yes longbowman !
he used to be on the anthro skype chat a while ago lol

Gioiello said...

@ Al Bundy
I thank you. What I know I learned myself, no time in this years to study an old grammar of Zuidenvoort I bought on a bancarella in my university years in Florence streets.
Someone said in the past that I used a google translator for my not understandable English, but after they always banned me: for what they didn't understand?
But I should be sincere, because English is easier to me because it derived the 55% of its vocabulary from Persian and its structure derives from Central Africa, and for that I am benefited coming from all there my origins, as once an African whore asked me to buy her a "pisa", and I understood that I had to go to my town for that.

Ebizur said...

I presume you all have seen this YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiLA6Bk_ivs

Ric Hern said...

Whahahaha !!!!

Aram said...

Rob

Villabruna level R1b expanding inside Europe is OK.
That L389 level Kura Araxian R1b coming with Epigravetians to South Caucasus is OK. Albeit it would be good to have at last one r1b positive for L389 from main Europe.
But P297. Looks a different story.
Also another oddity still no trace of that PH155. Despite the fact that it is present in Turkey and Georgia and should no have problem to be present in Balkans. Maybe sample size is issue or maybe something else.

Aram said...

Gioiello

The key issue is that are Indian PH155 are in more upstream position than others (Europeans,Turks etc ) or they are downstream. Being L389 negative is not informative.

Davidski said...

Modern DNA is not informative, let's start there shall we?

Rob said...

@ Aram
I don't see what the problem with P297 expanding from Europe also. That's what the evidence suggests - between Baltic and Ukraine LuP

Aram said...

Rob

Yes but that is East Europe. While we were discussing origins in Balkans. So if You look from diversity point of view currently the highest diversity of ancient R1bs is in East Europe and not in Balkans.
Btw imho some R1bs in East Europe could easily be V88s also.

Ric Hern said...

Who were the Mammoth Bone Hut Builders ? Apparently this type of constraction started in Poland and spread to the Ukraine between 20 000 and 15 000 years ago.

Aram said...

Davidski

Offcourse the ancient DNA is the king. But it could be good if someone plans to clarify the issue of this Indian R1b to do it in more efficient manner.
Chances are high that they are simply the result of IE migrations.

Gioiello said...

@Aram

"Gioiello
The key issue is that are Indian PH155 are in more upstream position than others (Europeans,Turks etc ) or they are downstream. Being L389 negative is not informative".

I already answered your question: PH155 is a brother clade of M335, above all in Italy and Central and Northern Europe (I posted numerous samples on www.worldfamilies.net, seen that www.eng.molgen.org is out), and its MRCA is very recent, thus it doesn't demonstrate anyrthing about its oldest origin, and anyway it has nothing to do with the L389+ subclades, very likely from Italy.

@ Davidski

"Modern DNA is not informative, let's start there shall we?"

It wasn't also before 2 May 2016 when Villabruna was published. I think it depends from who exams it.

@ Aram
"Rob
[...]
Btw imho some R1bs in East Europe could easily be V88s also".

Certainly there were in the aDNA, but strangely we have plenty of R-V88 now in Sardinia, Italy, even Greece (I found a sample in SMGF and posted it on Ysearch), Iberia and above all the Isles, but very few or none in eastern Europe.

Aram said...

Gioiello

I don't doubt that there will be plenty V88 s in ancient Italy. The question is when we will see them? Why so long? Italian government don't finance science enough?

Karl_K said...

"Clearly you have not read my 100,000 letters to the Jewish Harvard cabal.
Read them and you will see why Anthrogenica banned me for telling the truth about pizza."

Give us all a break. Go bqck and learn to run some formal stats on tomatoes, wheat, and cheese. You should use sausage as an outgroup.

You can't trust Admixture results with tomato sauce because it's too mixed up and any extra garlic pulls everything into that artificial teal flatbread cline.

Gioiello said...

@ Aram

"Gioiello
I don't doubt that there will be plenty V88 s in ancient Italy. The question is when we will see them? Why so long? Italian government don't finance science enough?"

In Italy we have a leftist government allied with the Bergoglio's Church, i.e. with a leftist Pope, and before we had leftist geneticists from Cavalli Sforza to Barbujani, Caramelli and so on. All is done agaist the Italian identity. Who did Mr Soros meet when he came to Italy for supporting our invasion from the Maghrerbins who raped a young Polish girl in Rimini? He met Gentiloni, and so on.

epoch2013 said...

@Kark_K

I should probably just turn on an automatic responder to your baseless claims. Shi Huang and team did not root the origin of pizza where they wanted. They (and I) rooted them based on rather simple criteria: most anciently attested, most widely spread and most frequent alleles. They are trying to avoid an out-of-Italy bias whereby the least frequent, unattested in ancestry and geographically restricted types are declared to be the oldest.

Gioiello said...

What have we to learn from to-day distribution of the haplotypes?

R-L754 L761/PF6258/YSC0000266 * L754/PF6269/YSC0000022 * Y108/FGC41/M12190/V1501+17 SNPs 16900 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 19000 15300 ybp" class="age"formed 18900 ybp, TMRCA 17100 ybp
R-L754*
R-V88 Z30230/Y7770 * V88/PF6279 * PF6332+59 SNPs 15300 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 13400 10200 ybp" class="age"formed 17100 ybp, TMRCA 11800 ybp
R-V88*
⦁ id:YF07201 [GBR and ITALY]
R-M18 PF6372 * PF6319 * YP5453+34 SNPs
⦁ id:ERS256975ITA [IT-CA]
⦁ id:ERS256965ITA [IT-CA]
R-Y7777 Y7777/FGC21014/SK2065 * Y7768 * FGC21018/Y8460+10 SNPs 10200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 11000 8300 ybp" class="age"formed 11800 ybp, TMRCA 9600 ybp
R-Y7777*
⦁ id:YF07902GBR [and Italy and FRANCE]

We have here three haplotypes separated 11800 years ago and all are now in Western Europe, all in Italy.

epoch2013 said...

On a more serious note:

@David

You mentioned a model with WHG input in Anatolia. I recall D-stats that show similar input in Natufians. Have there been attempts to see if models with other Ice Age European influx into Anatolians fit? El Miron, or GoyetQ116 for instance?

Bob Floy said...

@Karl

"Give us all a break. Go back and learn to run some formal stats on tomatoes, wheat, and cheese. You should use sausage as an outgroup."

You talk of "sausage", but you can't know that I proofed the first anchovy, caught in Calabria before the LGM, and my discovery was stolen and published by Mario-Luigi et al.(2000).
Your "formal" stats are only manipulation tool for Levantists.

Gioiello said...

@ Bob Floy
or whichever you are. You should know that "Tuscans" of 32000 years ago did bread (most likely an azyme) with typha (see the Bilancino excavations).
Anyway you know my address (gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com): if you send me your Y and mt, I'll say where you came from.

Simon_W said...

@ Samuel Andrews

"Gioello wants his country of Italy to be the Paleolithic origin of this and that because back in those days that's how ethnic groups/regions gained esteem."

I think he just identifies himself extremely with his modern Italian nationality and it's sort of natural that people don't want to lose or completely change their identity, especially if their whole self depends on it. And hence he wants to fend off all foreign = alien, non-Italian influences from himself and from Italy. Moreover he regards DNA science as a battlefield where members of different nations (not individual scientists and hobbyists) compete with each other for national supremacy, not for an objective interpretation of facts. His overreliance on yDNA led him to believe that Italians are WHG - when in fact Balts are closest to WHG and all central/northern Europeans are closer to WHG than Italians are. That's because even if R1b is a WHG lineage, which is possible, the purely male line of ancestry is just one of an infinite number of ancestral lines each male has.

Davidski said...

Gioiello: Anyway you know my address (gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com): if you send me your Y and mt, I'll say where you came from.

Italy.

Gioiello said...

@ Davidski

"Gioiello: Anyway you know my address (gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com): if you send me your Y and mt, I'll say where you came from.

Italy".

I thank you very much. When I said that the worst enemies of Italy are the same Italians! The problem is that many put all their engagment to convince Italians that they are not Italians but always come from everywhere. Unfortunately Italians come from many different tribes and peoples with different languages and only Rome unified them, giving its language: Latin. But we have to say that Rome didn't ever impose its language. Were the other peoples to ask Rome the permission to speak Latin, because speaking Latin made them Latins or Romans in some way, and it was a privilege. Unfortunately every people has his history, and ours is complex. Lately Jews put all their power in searching of convincing that Italians, above of Southern Italy, were in some way of Jewish origin, and not the other way around as I think it happened. You, who are interested in auosome, look at some ridiculous calculator like la la land, and all the others which have the same origin. Also a rich Mexican of Lebanese origin gave his contribute through National Geographic and some ridiculous test like Geno 2.0. And none speaks that it seems that modern European Jews have pretty nothing to do with Canaanite aDNA.

AWood said...

All of the R1b in Africa, at least the ones without a recent European male ancestor derive from subclades below V88 which has been calculated in several recent papers (2014 and later) to be 7500 years which roughly corresponds to a neolithic entry with pastoralism during the neolithic subpluvial period in Africa.

In terms of the WHG-EHG split, I suspect this still corresponds to I vs R1, with the latter being derived as 75% ANE + 25% WHG. The period 24,000 (ANE) - 14,000 (Villabruna) resulted in a mixing of the hunter gatherers in west and eastern Eurasia (northern) with some of the early R1b guys in the west resembling their earlier earlier YDNA I counterparts whose ancestors had been in western Europe as early as the Aurignacian period.

Gioiello said...

@ AWood

"All of the R1b in Africa, at least the ones without etc etc"

Another rider down from his nag on Damaskus road! Good to know that, but ask ADW_1981 if he writes that also on Anthrogenica. After that Rootsweb deleted the great part of my posts, that DNA-forums is out, eng-molgen too, and none goes on Worldfamilies for reading my more than 2000 posts, or the out of date "Dienekes' Anthropology blog" or Maju's blogs etc, perhaps my 1290 letters on Anthrogenica there are yet, and also the thread "Rathna's assessment of genetic materials" (89151 views), row 28 of Forum: General ...

Samuel Andrews said...

I'm dead serious right now. Pizza is from Italy no ifs or buts. "Pizza" itself is an Italian word. Pizza became a world-wide dish because many Italians immigrated into America and then big American producers spread it across the world.

You can't have pizza without tomatoes. Tomatoes are an American vegatable which came to Eurafrica after 1492 AD and therefore the ancient Persians could not have had a dish similar to Pizza.

epoch2013 said...

@Samuel Andrews

"You can't have pizza without tomatoes. Tomatoes are an American vegatable which came to Eurafrica after 1492 AD and therefore the ancient Persians could not have had a dish similar to Pizza."

A last somebody that is able to see the flawless logic behind an out-of-America scenario.

Karl_K said...

"A last somebody that is able to see the flawless logic behind an out-of-America scenario."

I have been over this in hundreds of letters. The fst distances leave no doubt, even accounting for drift. It is also possible that the tomatoes picked up their oregano admixture before the out of america event.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Lol. Smartass. Look up Persian use of a flatbread with cheese and dates. All seriousness and no Trumpello.

Chad Rohlfsen said...

Only after the migration out of the Garden Refugium. I have argued for this over 10 years and thousands of letters. When you find a tomato out of the garden, let me know.

Gioiello said...

@ Chad Rohlfsen
"Only after the migration out of the Garden Refugium. I have argued for this over 10 years and thousands of letters. When you find a tomato out of the garden, let me know".

In Italian yours would be said "spirito di patata" (spirit of potato), I'd say that yours is here a "spirit of tomato", but I doubt that you are able to understand that men aren't potatoes and tomatoes. You lost against me, you and all the Harvardians, Stanfordians, Anthrogenicians. Y R1 like mt K1 (amongst many othetsrs) are the haplogroups of the European hunter-gatherers (look at Mathieson and don't consider the Levantinists), Y J had nothing to do with Semites, but came from Caucasus (and I think also Europe), 0,02% (i.e. nothing) is the percentage of Old Canaanite in European Jews. Two WW were tragic and created only a three minutes state.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Chad,

That Persian stuff is R1b1* and Italian pizza R1b P312. Pizza took its modern form and expanded out of Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_pizza

"Modern pizza developed in Naples, when tomato was added to the focaccia in the late 18th century."

TOMATO! The page also states Foraccia, proto Pizza (lacks Tomato sauce), had been a dish in Italy since Roman times.

Gioiello said...

@ Samuel Andrews
I thank you for your defense of the origin of the "pizza" in Italy, even though the question has a little meaning to me: who invented the "pizza" is a problem of a little importance, if not for demonstrating how many and to which level are the prejuduces (and I'd say the hate ) against Italy, but I'd say above all the memory of Rome. All what I said till now was based on scientific previsions at the light of the reason, which are waiting to be proved or disproved by facts. Of course if the aDNA from Italy (the 50 samples in the Pinhasi labs and all the others in the the others) wouldn't prove my hypotheses, I'd say that they were wrong.
It seems strange the name "foraccia" in what you wrote. Perhaps it is "focaccia".

Slumbery said...

Samuel: I often eat pizza without tomato. There are alternative sauces. And it is still called pizza. So you can have pizza without tomatoes. :)

Slumbery said...

@AWood: Can we even talk about "WHG-EHG split" as a process? EHG seems to be younger than WHG and a result of post-glaciation ANE + WHG mixing in the newly available hunting grounds (then some 5 ky independent evolution of course).
If i have to guess R1b was a WHG lineage and R1a is an ANE lineage. The population that was the main carrier of R1 was split by the LGM, and most of the pre-LGM R1 lineages went extinct, leaving two main survivors, R1b in the west, R1a in the east.

Aram said...

Ok. Seriously this thread was quite refreshing. I look again to this situation and I must say that R1b from main Europe (not Eastern) is quite possible.

Bogdan said...

@ Gioiello

Villabruna man is not from Villabruna, Italy.

During the period, big game will have certainly traveled along that line, following topography and the ebb and flow of ice sheets and game migrations, but that area is not necessarily the best or easiest hunting grounds in the region during your time of interest. To find better hunting ground during that time, especially at time of latest glacial maximum, I suggest you charter a boat out of Korcula and head out to Otoci Pelagruza (Pelagrosa) island for some offshore diving in the middle of modern day Adriatic Sea.

Or if you are more inclined to dream about King Argos spirit, walk up the island dolomite to lighthouse and position your viewfinder N/NW towards Venetia. Over 180 deg of view, from left Italian coast to right Croatian coast. This was a better region to hunt, which most certainly was hotly contested with good amount of admix between disparate bands all tapping out the resource over time. It's a large area, but you have to understand that mankind at that time was a stone cold killer. When your band life depends on next meal, you devastate natural resource.

Was it the birthplace of R1b? No one will ever be able to say conclusively and furthermore it's terribly boring. Few would ever buy the book. Following further mutations of R1b is where it gets more interesting and relevant.

Samuel Andrews said...

The Mesolithic Baltic HGs with R1b1a had 30% EHG admix and lots of U5a. The Baltic Hgs with 90%+ WHG had Y DNA I2a and mostly U5b. They look like two different HG tribes. Also, WHG might have some ANE admixture. Point is R1b definitely could be ANE or EHG.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Slumberry,

I guarantee you Pizza without tomatoes is alternative pizza. Pizza originally had tomato sauce, then some people decided to take it off.

batman said...

Nice to see that you finally started viewing, rather than pffffting, the links I provided some years ago... 😂

batman said...

Sure.

These characteristics are actually found in all the cementaries known from Mesolithic Eurasia - from Catal Houyk to Motala.

Moreover, today we know that the first cementaries around the Black Sea and the Baltics were made by populations that ALK was (re-)started off only AFTER the Younger Dryas, 12.000 BP.

Which means that most, if not all, haplogroups found during the Late Paleolithic went extinct, to be replaced - after the climatic cataclysm - by a NEW set of specific mt- and y-dna-lines.

The homogenity found in the first mesolithic villages and cementaries - from North Cape to Gibraltar and Gobekli Tepe - shows that ALL the Early Mesolithic Eurasian populations had a common ancestry rooted in Paleolihic Eurasia.

Obviously, they are all the result of a common "bottleneck" - due to the "Younger Dryas Megafaunal Extinction Event".

This implies that the y-dna R* found in Paleolithic Russia (Malta-Buret) became an 'isolated event', that did not succeed through the LGM-YD events.

Thus we have to look for a later (re-)occurance of R* to determine the LCA of R1a/b.

So far we're left with the first R1a-samples from ENE Carelia-Samara (8.000 BP) and the R1b-samples from Italy and Serbia (10.500+ BP).

(There's still some question about the exact (calibrated) dating of the Villabruna sample, due to reservoir-effects. It may be 10-20% younger than presently estimated.)

However - the FIRST spread of R1a/b is clearly linked to Central Europe, just as the wconomic culture known as "cattle-farming".

Anyone familiar with the historical distribution of genes providing lactose-persistance - making livestock agriculture possible - is fully aware of the fact that the Western Baltics is the area that a-c-t-u-a-l-l-y have the very oldest populations adapted to a diet based on milk and milk-products. The LP-alleles found in Africa, together with R-V88, is estimated to be some 2-3.000 year younger than the Europran LP.

Finally - today we know that the areas where the gross majority (90-100%) of the population are ABLE to digest diaries is (still) a mix of R1a/R1b and I2/I1.

batman said...

The problem that NONE of these LGM-refugias are known to have survived the Younger Dryas and the Megafaunal Extinction Event - striking across North America and Northern Eurasia 12.930-12.100 years BP.

batman said...

Still chasing goose-bumps?

The FINAL reset of the Eurasian genome - defining the pioneering groups of ALL Eurasian populations of todays world can be directly connected to the Younger Dryas period and the Megafaunal Extinction Event, some 5.000 years after the end of LGM.

batman said...

According to the last paper from Mesolithic Scandinavia there were I2 in the villages of Northern Norway 7.500 years ago - with markers othetwise found in R1a.

It does indeed start looking like the dynasties of I2, R1a and R1b have a common origin in Paleolithic Europe - where an industrious domestic production - of various foodproducts - were neccesary to survive both the Late Paleolithic and the Early Mesolithic, north of the Alps.

The societies around the North Sea/W Baltic where obviously started by A I2-dynasty, that during EME populated ALL of the Atlantic Facade, from Gibraltar to North Cape, between 11.900 and 11.200 years BP.

Meanwhile it serms that similar dynasties from y-dna G, H and J starts populating the Med, Asia Minor and ALL of Central and NE Asia. All the way south to the archaic tropical populations, who survived the Extinction Event of YD in Africa, India, China, SE Asia and S America.

In N Europe we find the pioneering I2-societies soon to be complemented by the new dynasties of cattle-herding R1a AND R1b, accordingly.

Later the I2 goat- and pig-hetders start completing their livestocks with sheep and horses - building larger farms and villages with stable lifestocks and plants.

As do the cattle-herders, as soon as the climate improves and the green fields start yielding harvest e-v-e-r-y year.

All three hgs are still to be found in their area of origin, where todays oldest population of cattle-farmers are known to live...