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Saturday, December 22, 2018

The Hajji Firuz fiasco


The specter of Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 still haunts us. Judging by some recent comments that I've seen here and elsewhere, it seems that a good number of confused souls haven't yet given up hope that this ancient sample represents a Near Eastern population ancestral to the Yamnaya people of Early Bronze Age Eastern Europe. But the chances of this are slim to none, because...

- Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 is the only (supposedly) pre-Yamnaya individual to date in the now ample West Asian ancient DNA record who belongs to Y-haplogroup R1b-Z2103, R1b-M269, or even R1b, which has got to tell you something about the reliability of his early dating

- overall the genome-wide structure of Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 most certainly doesn't fit the profile of the Near Eastern-related half of the Yamnaya genotype

- in fact, practically every analysis that I've run with Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 suggests that he harbors Yamnaya or Yamnaya-related genome-wide ancestry, which makes sense considering his Yamnaya-specific Y-haplogroup, don't you think?

Heck, even if Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 is more or less accurately dated, and really was alive during the Chalcolithic period, then considering the points I've made above, the only honest explanation for his presence that early in what is now Iran is that there was a migration of an Yamnaya-like people from the steppes to the South Caspian region during the Chalcolithic.

I already wrote a post on this topic back in April, and a lengthy discussion ensued, with most of the commentators agreeing with my stance. But my efforts haven't had much of an impact outside of this blog. It's possible that my post was too confusing, so I went back today and rewrote it, also adding new stats and mixture models to help me drive home my point. Here's the link...

Likely Yamnaya incursion(s) into Northwestern Iran

Of course, no matter how strong my arguments are, many people will choose to disagree with me nevertheless and believe what they want to believe, because this is such an emotional issue for them. I don't want to get into the details about that here, but suffice to say that it's imperative for many people, particularly those of Near Eastern and Southern European backgrounds, that the origin of Yamnaya is somehow, by hook or by crook, put south of the Caucasus. I'm not kidding. It's a pointless cause though, especially now considering all of the new ancient DNA data from Eastern Europe that make this scenario about as likely as Out-of-India (see here).

See also...

Yamnaya: home-grown

Big deal of 2018: Yamnaya not related to Maykop

Ahead of the pack

Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but...

164 comments:

Andrzejewski said...

It is known that ancient Iran before 2000 BC was a salad bowl of ethnicities which spoke non-IE languages: Elamite mostly but also Hurrian and others. There was also an element called Iran_N which was very distinct from Steppe markers. IE languages only started being spoken in Iran at 1200 BC or even later.

I do understand the motifs of Persian, Armenian or Indian background to obfuscate the truth and attempt to claim that PIE originated within their current homeland. The BJP party in India has been attempting to do so for the last 16 years.

The problem is that those who do rely on science itself misinterpret what Reich wrote in an April 2018 paper. He must've argued that because of a perceived lack of "Steppe ancestry" in Anatolian samples then it means both Steppe PIE and Anatolian branch originated in modern day Armenia.

I thought that a later date paper from May 2018 debunking any perceived linguistic or genetic links between Yamnaya and Maykop cultures would finally be the last nail in the "Out of Anatolia"/"Out of South of the Caucasus"/etc. hypotheses but apparently not.

Davidski said...

@Andrzejewski

I thought that a later date paper from May 2018 debunking any perceived linguistic or genetic links between Yamnaya and Maykop cultures would finally be the last nail in the "Out of Anatolia"/"Out of South of the Caucasus"/etc. hypotheses but apparently not.

You're referring to the Wang et al. preprint in which the data and the authors' analyses clearly showed a lack of any meaningful relationship between Yamnaya and Maykop, and yet the conclusion in the preprint suggested that there was such a relationship, and even claimed that Yamnaya may have been founded by migrants from Iran, and indeed that Indo-European languages may have been introduced to Europe via Maykop.

I mean, if scientists from Max Planck and Broad MIT/Harvard are putting their names on that, then no wonder there are so many poor confused people out there.

Tesmos said...

I thought that they were trying to use the radiocarbon dating method for this sample again? Or was that attempt also unsuccessful?

Davidski said...

@Tesmos

Two C14 tests failed. Not enough collagen in the sample I guess.

George said...

The reconstruction of PIE language showing that Yamna clearly was not PIE (plus PIE had words for swords and spears and have no words for large rivers so Corded Ware culture also is not PIE)

Anna Dybo

"The list of the reconstructed Indo-European flora gives an impression of a mountain forest somewhere in the temperate zone"

"For the pra-Indo-Europeans the main type of economic activity were agriculture and well-developed sedentary pastoralism."

"The landscape in the language of pra-Altaians is represented by mountains, in contrast to the high mountains of the pra-Indo-European habitat, by low mountains. In significant number are represented the words for gullies, valleys, and steppes (steppes are absent in the Indo-European lexicon, their mountains are often covered with forest). The pra-Altaian steppes are quite dry and dusty, apparently with low hills. There are many terms for small fast streams with shoals and rapids, but also are words for large rivers (unlike PIE) and floods."

"The PIE does not have common names for the bow and arrows; it has the names for the types of axes, swords and spears"

Davidski said...

@George

The Eneolithic and Bronze Age expansion of pastoralists from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in Eastern Europe all the way to Iberia in the west and India in the south was one of the biggest events in human history.

And according to you it had zero linguistic impact, all the way from Iberia to India.

Haha. Change your nick to Bozo the Clown.

George said...

Indoeuropeans came to Iberia in Iron age , in Bronze age to the Iberia and France came the Beaker proto-Basque culture.
And also nothing from steppes in early Iron age among early Indo-Aryans in North Indus
In early Iron age before the 4 century BC
early Indo-Aryans had E1b1b1b2* E1a E1b1b1b2a G2a L1a J2a1 R2a H1a .... but non R1a

Davidski said...

@George

What language did the R1a-rich people who arrived on the border of South Asia during the Bronze Age, and spread R1a and steppe ancestry into the Indian Brahmin upper castes, speak?

On the doorstep of India

Are you saying they were mutes?

George said...

According to linguist Kulanda recent work the Pamiri and Pushtun languages have adstratum from Adyghe-Abkhazian languages, and only common that Adyghe-Abkhazians and Pamiri-Pushtun have are the R1a-Z2125 and R1a-Z94*
The Adyghe-Abkhazian custom was till 20 century that the children are only with mothers, and should be separate from fathers, fathers should not even see them until some age, and Adyghe-Abkhazians are reach in steppe and northern Mtdna and have some Baltic autosomal component.
Also the Adyghe-Abkhazian language family have the age
3600 years old this is middle bronze age, same time there is early Coban/Koban culture in west and central Caucasus their weapons are mostly Axes

But Adyghe-Abkhazians also have Nostratic-Kartvelian adstratum in their languages, and main Y-dna among Adyghe-Abkhazians is possibly from Nostratic Lazo-Megrelians cause Lazo-Megrelians have all branches of hg G-L1266 but Adyghe-Abkhazians have only subranch L1264

Davidski said...

LOL

Yeah, the linguistic link between Balto-Slavs and Indo-Aryans that also matches our shared R1a-Z645 is...Adyghe-Abkhazian.

George said...

But early Indo-Aryans did not have any R1a.

And reconstructed PIE language show clearly that Yamna ,Sredniy Stog , Khwalynsk and CWC could not be PIE

epoch said...

@George

"And reconstructed PIE language show clearly that Yamna ,Sredniy Stog , Khwalynsk and CWC could not be PIE"

No, it doesn't.

Davidski said...

@George

But early Indo-Aryans did not have any R1a.

They certainly did because the early Indo-Aryans lived on the Eastern European forest steppe, where there was plenty of "Indian" R1a-Z93 during the Bronze Age.

And reconstructed PIE language show clearly that Yamna ,Sredniy Stog , Khwalynsk and CWC could not be PIE.

The Yamnaya horizon was bordered by the Caucasus Mountains in the south and the Ural Mountains in the east.

So yeah, the PIE people living on the steppe knew all about mountains. They also knew about rivers and seas, and they had swords too.

So again, you're wrong.

Unknown said...

". The BJP party in India has been attempting to do so for the last 16 years." Please share with us the comments made by BJP on this issue lol. Pure unadulterated piss hahahaha.

Only reason why aryan invasionists connected steppe R1a being source of vedic culture in india was because of sintashta chariot burial. Surprise, chariot burial from same period now found in Haryana.

No r1a found in 39 males in swat till 1 sample from 400bc. So much for 'male mediated invasion'. Harappa declined due to poor monsoon and disease.

R1a most likely expanded due to recent founder effect during mauryan kingdom expansion post 500bc. R1a in Indians in incidental and has nothing to do with the vedic people. Connection between IE people is through much older iran component.

Davidski said...

Connection between IE people is through much older iran component.

There is no Iran component in Eastern and Northern European Indo-Europeans. There never was.

The R1a in India obviously dates back to the Bronze Age, because it has too much diversity there to be the result of a recent founder effect.

Also, Sintashta-derived steppe people with R1a were sitting on the border of India during the Bronze Age. We have their genomes and they fit the steppe ancestry in Indian upper castes.

You'll have to accept this sooner or later.

Unknown said...

"Also, Sintashta-derived steppe people with R1a were sitting on the border of India during the Bronze Age. We have their genomes and they fit the steppe ancestry in Indian upper castes."

Yes the swat males surely seem to have gotten their hands on some steppe ladies

Davidski said...

Yes the swat males surely seem to have gotten their hands on some steppe ladies.

Except the Bronze Age Sintashta-like R1a samples from southern Tajikistan are males.

And I'm pretty sure that all of that "Indian" R1a-L657 in Brahim upper castes isn't from steppe ladies either or from a recent founder effect.

Playing for time are we pea brain? Even you must realize that many more samples are on the way, and R1a will turn up sooner or later in Bronze Age samples from South Asia.

Unknown said...

"And I'm pretty sure that all of that "Indian" R1a-L657 in Brahim upper castes isn't from steppe ladies either or from a recent founder effect."

Indian brahmins have at least 10 paternal founders.

"Except the Bronze Age Sintashta-like R1a samples from southern Tajikistan are males."

Are you talking about the 2 uzbek 1100bc kashkarchi ancestors? much too late for vedic people brah

Davidski said...

The fact that there were steppe people in southern Tajikistan with R1a-Z2645 during the Bronze Age should set the alarm bells ringing that your narrative is a fantasy.

Look out for Bronze Age samples from South Asia. They will come sooner or later, and they will have R1a-L657.

You're only kidding yourself here.

Andrzejewski said...

@George For some reason he refers to Yamnaya as “not PIE” or even as “not IE” (Altaic?), and to Bell Beaker as “Proto Basque”.

I’ve heard enough....is he a troll?

Andrzejewski said...

@George PIE has some NW Caucasus influences but it is a different phylum. Nichols has been proven wrong with her misguided “Pontic hypothesis”

epoch said...

"Yes the swat males surely seem to have gotten their hands on some steppe ladies."

Let's see: We have a Steppe and R1a rich group on the doorstep of India. We have Swat culture with burials and cremations side by side, where the burials show steppe admixture but no R1a. We have a tad later burial in the area *with* steppe and R1a. We have basically confirmation that IVC had no steppe or R1a. We know that present day Indians have steppe and.. R1a! We know that predecessors of Steppe populations carried.. R1a!

Do you see a pattern there?

While Swat burials may not have been R1a, I reckon the cremations were R1a people.

"We saw in fact, that in the period indicated, the rite of inhumation coexists along with that of cremation, while the gaves have differenr groupings and different kind of furnishings according to the burial rite practiced. We deduced that a probable differentiation of the tribal groups settled in the Valley in that period; this differentiatiom might be explained by the various influences - or actual waves of migration - to which the region may have been subjected in the epoch under examination.

[SNIP]

While examination of inhumation graves has shown various resemblances to northern Iran especially to the facies referred to in the 1st period of the Iron Age, it is much harder to establish similarities for the graves marked by the crematin type of burial, since for the moment no cultural aspects that resemble them have been found in nearby areas, above all those near the northwest regions of the Indo-Pakistan sub-continent.
"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29755643?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

JuanRivera said...

There's a word for snow in PIE, but not one for rain. It indicates a climate in which most precipitation came in the winter. The steppes fit that. Also, there are the words for birch, beaver, tortoise, sand and distinctions between wild and domestic horses, and slow and fast horses. Also, Pontic-Caspian cultures had experience with bronze objects. Assigning farmers to IE and steppe to Turkic no longer works. Considering all data, it is steppe that is IE. And actually, PIE has a word for bow.

JuanRivera said...

In fact, there are two words in PIE meaning bow, one also means arrow.

Richard Rocca said...

The authors have now twice tried to radiocarbon test Hajji Firuz sample I2327 unsuccessfully. I don't know about you, but the fact that they've tried twice seems to indicate that they also know there is something wrong with the date the archaeologists attributed it to.

Zarzian said...

Well, Reich and other labs have hundreds, if not thousands of unpublished samples that have already been sequenced, and if they believe a Southern origin of PIE then I would be really scared if I was of the Steppe camp. There is obviously something that they know that the general public doesn’t, and I would be hesitant to brush off their conclusion or risk great embarrassment once they publish more results.

Ric Hern said...

For me the story basically came to a conclusion with Mesolithic samples of R1a and R1b already in the Pontic Caspian Steppe. This basically isolated the Steppe people for enough time for the basics in Proto-Indo European to form without a clear close connection to any other Language Family.

Davidski said...

@Zarzian

Well, Reich and other labs have hundreds, if not thousands of unpublished samples that have already been sequenced, and if they believe a Southern origin of PIE then I would be really scared if I was of the Steppe camp. There is obviously something that they know that the general public doesn’t, and I would be hesitant to brush off their conclusion or risk great embarrassment once they publish more results.

If you want to see what "great embarrassment" looks like, have a look at the conclusion in the Wang et al. preprint.

Davidski said...

@All

I removed several obvious trolling attempts about South Asia.

Also please note that I don't allow nicks like "Unknown". All comments by people with such nicks will be blocked or removed in this thread from now on.

Dragos said...

@ Davidski
A confusing issue indeed. If i recall correctly, it was buried in local style - in the large jars (or whatever theyre called).
The Chalcolithic outlier certainly needs something from the steppe, but the ultimate model really requires propper dating, which might continue to elude us. Anyhow, maybe the dozens or so extra samples will relagate this issue to the sidelines/

@ Epoch
I'm not exactly following your reasoning. Are you saying that we can confidently state that all the R1a males ahappened to be cremated, because no such typological parallels have been found anywhere else, including the steppe ?

George said...

@Andrzejevski
According to recent Kozinski work the PIE have almost nothing from NW Caucasian, PIE have only adstratum from Semitic 5.6%.
Also NW Caucasian is very young (separeted into branches 3600 years ago) it couldn.t influence PIE,
But NW Caucasian influenced Pamiri and Pushtun languages according to recent Kulanda work.

Yamna is not PIE(cause reconstructed PIE language don.t have words for Stepe, for large Rivers, and don.t have common words for Arows and Bows, also PIE are agricultural and have sedentary pastoralism, all this in recent works of Anna Dybo)
but it is clearly proto-Nakh-Dagestanian
The "North Caucasian" culture 4000-4500 years before was in central and east Caucasus it is 95% Yamna like autosomaly and 4/4 is R1b1a2, also Nakh-Dagestanian languages separeted 4200 years before according to glottochronology

Ric Hern said...

@ George

So basically what you are saying is that Basque and Nakh-Dagestanian are related ? Because Basque are also rich in R1b1a2....

The thing is that Steppe people did not always impose their language everywhere they went. But taking the amount of R1b1a2 Men which speaks Indo-European Languages compared to those that do not, it is basically clear as daylight which was the original Language Family of R1b1a2 Men.

Basque for example hardly make up 1% among the Western European R1b Males....

Andrzejewski said...

@Ric Hern Yea, something along these lines. The similarities between R1a1 (Satem) dialect that attributed to CWC language branches and R1b (Centum) that gave rise to BellBeaker one’s May indicate the PIE or the earliest recognizable form thereof may have originated with basal R* somewhere either on Steppes or even earlier in Siberia

Davidski said...

@Dragos

If i recall correctly, it was buried in local style - in the large jars (or whatever they're called).

I2327 comes from a bin ossuary or container burial (phase F-G). All the remains in this bin ossuary are inferred to be from secondary burials. More info here...

Hasanlu, Volume I: Hajji Firuz Tepe, Iran - The Neolithic Settlement Page 88

I4243 is also from a Chalcolithic bin ossuary (F11 burial 3), and yet was reclassified as a Bronze Age sample after a C14 analysis.

Hasanlu, Volume I: Hajji Firuz Tepe, Iran - The Neolithic Settlement Page 83

George said...

@Ric Hern
North Caucasian,
Basque,
Burushaski,
Na-Dene(North America)
Ket(Enisean, Siberian living nowadays Hunter Gatherers)
Sino-Tibetan
All are in the same Dene-Caucasian language family
Also the Kets(Siberia) Dagestanian mountainers and Burushos have the highiest % of ANE admixture in Old World
While the Sino-Tibetan Burmese people have the highiest % of ANE in SE Asia

JuanRivera said...

Seriously, trying to use big rivers as argument? There are big rivers everywhere in the world, so there's no sense trying to use that as argument. Also, steppe is the only component every IE speaker (both ancient and modern) shares. There seems to be points imported from Turkic World, which is just a crackpot site that can't keep their hands off Scytho-Sarmatians and other steppe IE cultures. PIE seems to be missing farming terms and horse (and other words) hasn't been taken into account. Also, as said before, PIE has two words for bow, and one of them also means arrow. Also, PIE speakers knew grass. At this point, it is increasingly untenable to defend farmers hypotheses (especially of the Gray & Atkinson variation), especially when Anatolian and Iranian farmers were vastly different. You're ignoring also the evidence of contact of PIE and descendant languages with Proto-Uralic. Plus, Altaic is considered by most linguists to be an artificial group. The Semitic terms can be explained as trade terms and contact with farmers to the west. I wonder if you're being deliberately contrarian.

JuanRivera said...

High ANE percents are also prevalent in Uralics, Indo-Europeans, Turkics, Mongolics, Tungusics, Paleosiberians, Eskimo-Aleut and Amerindians. You especially forgot the Karitiana and neighboring south Amerindians.

JuanRivera said...

If anything, ANE more closely fits the proposed language families Eurasiatic and Amerindian, who also are propposed to be siblings.

JuanRivera said...

*Amerind

JuanRivera said...

In fact, present speakers of these language families tend to have more ANE than neighborgs speaking other languages.

George said...

Proto-Uralic also had contacts with Dravidian, and after that with Sinitic , there is Late Neolithic expantion into Northern China from Iran-Afghanistan
in that time local in North China is hg N1c1

Altaic family clearly originated in Ordos Stepes
There are also J2a2a and G1a hg in Ordos stepes today
and these G1a and J2a2 are from Chalcolithic Iran

JuanRivera said...

Seriously, Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic from Iran and the rest of the Near East? It makes absolutely no semblance of sense. Where do you think that Nivkh, Chukotko-Kamchatkan, Eskimo-Aleut and Amerind originate?

JuanRivera said...

And let's not forget about Yukaghir.

Them meee said...

@George

Does this mean the shared R1b between Central Asians and Western Europeans is proto-Nakh-Daghestanian?

Really?

George said...

I wrote in Old World, this is why I didn.t mention Karitiana.
In whole world the champions of ANE admixture are the Burushos(south central Asia) the Karitiana(Americas) the Dagestanian mountainers(Caucasus) and the Enisean Kets (Siberia)


JuanRivera said...

@Them meee I agree with the really. Some of his comments are face palm-worthy. And I'm waiting for him to state where Yukaghir, Nivkh, Chukotko-Kamchatkan, Eskimo-Aleut and Amerind originated.

JuanRivera said...

You mentioned Na-Dene, which is exclusively in the Americas. Also, Mansi and Khanty are on par with Yeniseians when it comes to ANE. Spaniards and Portuguese have higher ANE than the Basque.

JuanRivera said...

Plus, it makes no sense that steppe languages only survived in mountains, as the languages of the conquered are regularly the ones persisting in mountains.

JuanRivera said...

I'm waiting for where do you think that Yukaghir, Nivkh, Chukotko-Kamchatkan, Eskimo-Aleut and Amerind originated.

George said...

@Them meee
Burushos are "pure" Central Asians autosomaly
Burushos are part of Makro-Caucasian/Basco-Caucasian language family
Makro-Caucasian are western Dene-Caucasians

R1b could be proto-Macro-Caucasian
Or the R1b were just local east European hunter gatherers who took the language from easter invaders from people of Subneolithic Keramic cultures of midle Volga river that came from China or from southern Yakutia (central Siberia)

The earliest Ceramic culture in Europe is in midle Volga

George said...

Kets have much more ANE than Khantys or Mansis

Na-dene in Northern America are mostly Paleo-Siberian autosomaly
Yukaghirs Chukchi and others there are a mix of Paleo-Siberian plus Neo-Siberian
Neo-Siberian admix is originaly from Manchuria and other teritories to the south of Amur river

JuanRivera said...

You missed Amerind-speaking anerindian, especially the south american ones.

George said...

Why I should even consider Amerindians?, they separated from Asians autosomaly more than 18000 years ago

The new Eastern Nostratic languages came to Siberia
to Northern America, and to NE Europe, after the time of South Siberian EBA
Nivkh-Amuric-Manchurian/Neosiberian admix also among Paleo-Eskimo samples
https://i.imgur.com/oYlteIQ.png

JuanRivera said...

*amerindians

JuanRivera said...

Amerind is the sibling of Eurasiatic.

JuanRivera said...

Now, where you think Eurasiatic+Amerind originated? Only a question.

JuanRivera said...

*Just a question; sometimes I have problems with grammar.

George said...

Amerind is not related to Nostratic
Nostratic are the Eurasiatic, the Etruscan, the Dravidian, the Afro-asiatic, the Kartvelian, the Elamite, the Shumerian, etc

JuanRivera said...

It's not my view, it's Greenberg's.

George said...

Amerind language families some of them even are not related to each other.
Cause orphan children in unpopulated teritory like the America 12000-18000 years ago can create new language, Amerind as a whole is not a one language (super)family

JuanRivera said...

Anyways, where you think Eurasiatic originated? We'll leave Amerind for another time, it can cause flame wars.

George said...

According to Grigoriev all Nostratic proto-languages originated in Kurdistan

JuanRivera said...

And how you think Paleosiberian Eurasiatic reached their present locations in the Russian Far East and the north american arctic from Kurdistan?

Andrzejewski said...

That Nakh-Daghestani being rich in R1b1a can explain their largely fair skin and their Europoid appearance but it has nothing to do with their language. It does prove that they have a later post-BA Steppe admixture. The original languages of the Steppe were PIE or a language family of para-PIE.

Andrzejewski said...

@George @Ric Hern Kets cluster with PIE as ANE; Burushkos are by and large WSHG (like Botai, perhaps also ancient Sumerians?). It is a different cluster altogether. Besides, the fact that contemporary N1c1 carriers Finno-Ugric are at least 60% European can readily account for their Europoid countenance. I bet the Proto-Uralics have mixed over the centuries with Sintashta, Indo-Aryans, Scythians etc so their aDNA became Steppe-like rather than Siberian/WSHG-like.

Andrzejewski said...

@JuanRivera not in Uralics: Uralics are nowadays mostly Indo-European genetically with lesser elements of Siberian aDNA maybe WSHG. They are however rich in BHG (Baltic HG), which may not may not be related to CWC.

Andrzejewski said...

Partially from MA1 like indo-Europeans

Davidski said...

@Andrzejewski

The acronym BHG is usually used for Baikal Hunter-Gatherers in the comments here.

Unlike most Indo-Europeans, almost all Uralic speakers have significant levels of BHG. We discussed this issue here where I used Glazkovo_EBA as a proxy for the BHG in Uralics...

On the trail of the Proto-Uralic speakers (work in progress)

Them meee said...

@George

I don’t get it. So IE comes from China, Iran or Kurdistan?

The hell do you even believe in?

JuanRivera said...

So far, data indicates that steppe was PIE and ANE was Eurasiatic. There seems to be strange correspondences between PCKA (proto-Chukotko-Kamchatkan-Amuric, postulated ancestor of proto-Nivkh and proto-Chukotko-Kamchatkan, which in turn gave rise to proto-Chukotian, which gave rise to Chukchi, Koryak, Aleutor and Kerek, and proto-Itelmen, which gave rise to eastern, southern and western Itelmens) and PIE. A number of which are PCKA voiceless stops, voiced stops and voiced fricatives with PIE voiceless stops, voiced stops and breathy-voiced stops respecively (with some mix-ups), followed by PCKA alveolars and palatals corresponding to PIE dentals followed by PCKA /h/, corresponding to either h2 or h3 in PIE, in turn followed by liquids (PCKA intervocalic liquids corresponding fairly well to PIE /l/, final liquids corresponding fairly to PIE /r/, though exceptions are numerous). Vowels don't seem to correspond, and some voiced fricatives seem to correspond also to /w/ and labialization in velars (the bilabial one), /l/ (the alveolar one) and laryngeals (the velar and uvular ones), plus, PCKA velar and uvular stops don't correspond well to one specific row of the PIE velars. So far, it's only self-observation, and I'm still amateur. An expert may or may not confirm it. The 2011 paper reconstructing PCKA is "The relationship of Nivkh to Chukotko-Kamchatkan revisited", which is freely avaliable in Researchgate.

JuanRivera said...

Well, the Near East was in the dawn of history linguistically crowded. Having Indo-European there crowds it even more. With Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic there, I wonder how much space was for each language family. With Yukaghir, Nivkh, Chukotko-Kamchatkan and Eskimo-Aleut there it seems like literally a fourth of the linguistic world was holed up in there in the LMG, and the Near East would be extremely crowded, like water in the Marianas Trench. Anyways, I hope he'll get more articulate.

JuanRivera said...

Correction: Aleutor is actually Alyutor, and should not be confused with the Aleut branch of Eskimo-Aleut.

Ric Hern said...

@ At the end of the day 2% similarities between Languages doesn't make them particularly related. In 38 000 years since the appearance of ANS in Northeast Siberia a lot changed. Since then we see the formation of ANE, EHG and eventually Proto-Indo-Europeans. Looking at Aboriginal Australian Languages we can see how much Languages can change over a very long time within a relatively related group of people. Some estimate that Languages seperated from a Common Ancestor for more than 10 000 years will have basically nothing in common with each other in order for them to be classified as the same Language Family. So basically all Language Families today stem from after the LGM and minimal similarities would have survived within a Language Family whose Languages split up around 8000 BCE.

So basically regarding PIE only events after 8000 BCE are relevant. By this time we see R1a and R1b in the Pontic Caspian Steppe together. And we still see them together in Khvalynsk +-5000 BCE.

Bob Floy said...

The whole "nostratic" idea is and has always been garbage. Discussing it at all only impedes real discussion that's actually valuable.

Ric Hern said...

For me personally Yamnaya and Corded Ware were not Proto-Indo-European because R1a and R1b already split up by that time. So the Common Ancestor of both where both R1a and R1b were found was the Proto-Indo-Europeans. In other words the Khvalynsk Culture or a culture between Khvalynsk and the formation of Yamnaya...

Andrzejewski said...

@all most likely PIE rose on the PC Steppes with either an interaction between R1b and R1a1 groups, who were very similar, or that the difference between R1a1 and R1b essentially amount to Satem v. Centum within the same language family. I don’t believe that any other theory or hypothesis holds water

Bob Floy said...

Obviously PIE existed at a time before Yamnaya and CWC diverged, if indeed they ever were directly linked.

Andrzejewski said...

@Bob Floy no. Yamnaya was R1b and Centum speakers, R1a1 were Stredny-Stog and Satem. CWC came from Sredy Stog, Bell Beakers from Yamnaya.

Andrzejewski said...

@Ric Hern what was BEFORE Khvalynsk? In other words, what language do you think Samara Culture nomadic people spoke?

Andrzejewski said...

Do you regard PIE or even the most primordial stage of the language as a language isolate?

Bob Floy said...

@Andrzejewski

"Yamnaya was R1b and Centum speakers, R1a1 were Stredny-Stog and Satem. CWC came from Sredy Stog, Bell Beakers from Yamnaya."

Yeah this is more or less what I think at the moment.

Ric Hern said...

At the end of the day, when you bake a cake you have to have all the ingredients otherwise it will not be a cake.

Looking at the climate and environmental changes in the Steppe we see a lot of migrations inbetween the Lower Don, Derievka and Samara basically in an L-shape avoiding the North Caspian Desert zone.

In this area the ingredients of PIE came together between 10 000 and 6000 years ago. So Samara could have been One of the contributors towards the formation of PIE.

epoch said...

@Zarzian

"There is obviously something that they know that the general public doesn’t, and I would be hesitant to brush off their conclusion or risk great embarrassment once they publish more results."

Does that mean that with the current knowledge of the general public you'd agree that the south of the Caucasus hypothesis is unlikely? And if not, what part from that current knowledge would make that hypothesis likely?

@Dragos

"I'm not exactly following your reasoning. Are you saying that we can confidently state that all the R1a males happened to be cremated, because no such typological parallels have been found anywhere else, including the steppe ?"

I meant to say that from the overall image we can confidently state that R1a came from the steppe and that its absence in Swat samples could possibly be explained by cremations being the funeral rite a different ethnicity - "tribe" - than the burials. And yes, the lack typological parallels with the steppe is remarkable. The article mentions parallels - Face Urns - with Bronze Age Europe though.

mono said...

Dene Caucasian is a highly speculative theory. But if there is some rationale in it then it's homeland must be in East Asia and not in West Eurasia.
Na Dene has an excess off East Asian affinity compared to other Amerindians.
Sino Tibetan is East Asian by excellence. Any attempt to derive Sinitic from West is a crackpottery.
Na Dene and Sino Tibetan are considered the first split in Dene Caucasian family, thus another argument for East Asian origin.

Burusho's main difference from other Indo Aryans is the presence of extra East Asian ancestry.
Yenisseian was associated with Paleosiberian sample for which we know that he had an extra mix of East Asian.

And finally Maykop had huge levels of Siberian ancestry which is preserved by North Caucasians. So we have a link between North Caucasus and Siberia.

So If we want to play this funny macrofamilies game then the obcious conclusion is this.
ANE is Nostratic Eurasiatic. and East Asian is the Dene Caucasian and ultimatly Dene Dai. Dene Dai was the last theory of Starostin before he died.
Dene Dai links Dene Caucasian with Austric languages like Austronesian, Thai Kadai, Austo Asiatic ...

Matt said...

From the Global25 distances, certainly looks like outlier closer to North Eurasian populations, and so steppe cultures probably most plausible mediator of that considering time place and y haplogroup: https://imgur.com/a/pi655PS

Comparing distance between Hajji Firuz Chl outlier and Hajji Firuz Chl main; most closer to outlier than to main is Tajiks, ANE rich outliers like Gonu1_BA_o, Sintashta_MLBA_o1, Srubnaya_MLBA_o, Dali_EBA, with steppe cultures next up, while most closer to main are Levantine and Anatolian Neolithic to Bronze Age, EEF and present day Levantine and Arabian Peninsula.

Comparisons with Iranian_Lor also included as closest population average to the outlier in the set.

The date seems questionable on the groups of y; if truly is Z2105/Z2103, then that is only supposed to have branched at 6kya according to the phylogeny work (https://media.springernature.com/original/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00439-017-1773-z/MediaObjects/439_2017_1773_Fig7_HTML.gif).

Comparing the distance betwen Hajji Firuz BA and Hajji Firuz Chl main gives a much more clear Yamnaya / Steppe signal, with steppe and European LNBA and post populations having excess closeness to BA, rather than ANE and Central Asian samples: https://imgur.com/a/Ui16Tyx.

Cline extension on the Chl Outlier sample against the main cluster seems to push it towards the north, but also towards a more eastern position than can be accounted for by steppe, so seems like a composite of influences in the outlier as against the main cluster, not just a steppe pulse (as suggested by the qpAdm fits that give lower Barcin ancestry where Barcin:Seh_Gabi_Chl about 10:90 in outlier and 25:75 in main cluster): https://imgur.com/a/UEAe8cO

Slumbery said...

@Davidski

An off topic question. Have you ever looked at the sample dubbed as Petrovka in Global 25? I had some free time at hand in pre-Christmas as made a lot of nMonte runs with the on-line interface.
The Petrovka sample has a significant western ancestry that best modelled with Bell-Beaker. Whatever other ancient European populations I threw on it, nMontes insists that Petrovka is 1/3 BB. All CWC as well as Balkan and Carpathian populations are rejected in the presence of Bell Beaker and even Beaker_Hungary looses against Central European and British Beakers.
An appearance of the cousins of the Beaker source population that moved under the radar before? Or just an artifact of the test?

Samuel Andrews said...

@Slumbery,

Petrovka is interesting. Kairan_MLBA:I4568 and Kairan_MLBA:I4567 also has excess farmer ancestry compared to other Sintashta/Andronovo-related samples.


2.7868"

Kairan_MLBA:I4568

Srubnaya,44.1
Beaker_The_Netherlandsavg_nooutliers,28.2
Battle_Axe_Sweden:Olsund,17.7
Cluster 2_Beaker_Central Europe,7.5
Beaker_Northern_Italy_no_steppe,0.9
Tisza_LN,0.8
CWC_Baltic:Spiginas2,0.8

3.7723"

Petrovka_MLBA:I0945

Sintashta_MLBA,34.9
Karagash_MLBA,29.7
Beaker_The_Netherlandsavg_nooutliers,12.8
Battle_Axe_Sweden:RISE94,10.7
CWC_Baltic:RISE00,6.4
Czech_EBA:I7197_o1,5.5

3.7897"

Kairan_MLBA:I4567

Karagash_MLBA,56.9
Battle_Axe_Sweden:RISE94,16.3
Globular_Amphora:I2403,10.8
Sintashta_MLBA,9.3
Gonur1_BA,3.6
CWC_Baltic:RISE00,3.1

a said...

"Petrovka_MLBA:I0945

Sintashta_MLBA,34.9
Karagash_MLBA,29.7
Beaker_The_Netherlandsavg_nooutliers,12.8
Battle_Axe_Sweden:RISE94,10.7
CWC_Baltic:RISE00,6.4
Czech_EBA:I7197_o1,5.5

Kairan_MLBA:I4567

Karagash_MLBA,56.9
Battle_Axe_Sweden:RISE94,16.3
Globular_Amphora:I2403,10.8
Sintashta_MLBA,9.3
Gonur1_BA,3.6
CWC_Baltic:RISE00,3.1"


Isn't Karagash[Yamnaya-Afansievo migration related RISE786(Yamnaya-Karagash_EMBA), Yamnaya, 3018-2887 BC] branch R1b[R-CTS1843(R1b1a2a2c1)] related to the Hungary R1b Bell Beakers?
Beaker_Hungary

Barcin_N,49
Yamnaya_Samara,31.8
Narva_Lithuania,11.4
Blatterhole_HG,6
Ukraine_Mesolithic,1.8

[1] distance%=4.9659

Beaker_Hungary_no_steppe

Barcin_N,76.2
Blatterhole_HG,23.8

[1] distance%=2.4992

Beaker_Hungary_outlier

Yamnaya_Samara,76
Barcin_N,19
Koros_HG,4.4
Blatterhole_HG,0.6

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/03/on-origin-of-steppe-ancestry-in-beaker.html

"Check out the imposing level of Narva_Lithuania ancestry in Beaker_Hungary. Admittedly, I wasn't expecting this. Is there a chance that it's real? I honestly don't know, but we've certainly seen similar signals from Northeastern Europe in later Bronze Age samples from Hungary. On the other hand, Beaker_Hungary_outlier is the guy estimated by Olalde et al. to be as much as 75% steppe-derived. Here he gets a very similar figure of 76% of Yamnaya-like ancestry. Very nice! ...."

JuanRivera said...

So far, steppe ancestry seems to be widespread in IE-speaking peoples (both present and former). In Iberia, the steppe signal barely decreased from 20% (in Beaker_Iberia) to 16-19% (present iberians, except Basque). In Basque it sharply decreases, as even neighboring Cantabrians have as much steppe as Central Iberians (17.5%-19%) and Aragonese have as much as Andalusians (16%).

mzp1 said...

Nothing wrong with the dates for the Haji Firuz sample.

Scythians and their early ancestors have always been moving into the region around the south of the Caspian. Probably raiding, trading and settling activities from their bases on the Steppe. No reason why this cant go back into the Chalcolithic.

"I thought that a later date paper from May 2018 debunking any perceived linguistic or genetic links between Yamnaya and Maykop cultures would finally be the last nail in the "Out of Anatolia"/"Out of South of the Caucasus"/etc. hypotheses but apparently not."

No, because there is no reason why both cannot be IE. Infact, both are IE.
Maykop gave rise to CW and Centum languages in North West Europe, these are linked to Centum languages in Southern Europe via the South Caucuses. Steppe IE likely always spoke Iranian, a Satem language, and had a greater impact on Eastern Europe hence Balto-Slavic is Satem instead of Centum.

Germanic seems to have retained Centumization though it is still affected by a very significant Iranian superstrate, brought by various settlers from the Steppes.

The problem with these theories is that they are far too late to account for diversification of IE into different 'streams' by the early Bronze Age, ie Maykop and Yamnya, which are actually two highly differentiated IE cultures already, one Satem and one Centum.

A clear example are the Gutians, attested already by 2500BC in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

Guti is related to Getae, Goths etc which are late forms of the name Dahae,but it's attestation at 2500BC is far too early if we wish to date Indo Iranian literature to post 1,500BC, as they have older forms of the name.

George said...

Paleosiberians lived in eastern Siberia before the coming of Eastern Nostratic ,
Eastern Nostratic languages came to Siberia , NE-Europe and North America together with "Neosiberian" Nivkh-Amuric like component after the early bronze age

Nivkh also have relic branch of western ydna hg G2a
Ordos Stepes(Altaic homeland) have G1a and J2a2a
Manchuria also have J2a and G2a
There are several migrations from Zagros to North China from the time of late Neolithic till the early bronze age


About the Dene-Dai family
(the early ANE are older than Dene-Dai family so we need to find something younger)
There is south-east Asian admix inside the Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers
The WSHG is ~ ANE + SEA +....
And the EHG is ~ WHG + WSHG +....
For me it is
Proto-Dene-Dai <- SEA
Proto-Macro-Caucasian <- WSHG
Proto-Basco-Caucasian <- EHG

JuanRivera said...

Now is my turn to ask. Is there G2a and J2a2a in Yukaghirs, Chukchis, Koryaks, Alyutors, Itelmens and Siberian Yupiks? I excluded the rest of the Eskimo-Aleuts due to the fact that they geneyically resemble the other amerindians.

JuanRivera said...

*genetically

George said...

And about Nostratic Proto-Indoeuropean and Proto-Altaic, their reconstructed Languages by Anna Dybo showing that they had almost nothing in common in their way of live, almost nothing in common in their early cultures.
But they both were Cattle Herders, and the earliest Cattle Herders were in West Iran and in South-East Anatolia/ Northern Messopotamia

Andrzejewski said...

Did you actually read Wang et al. preprint?

Andrzejewski said...

Basques are R1b - which means IE on father’s side. In fact, Bell Beakers exterminated every male in Spain 4,500 years ago

Andrzejewski said...

Burushos mostly are WSHG, like Botai and perhaps Sumerians; Yenisseyans are ANE like Proto-Indo-Europeans. Completely different clines.

Them meee said...

@mzp1

Germanic seems to have retained Centumization though it is still affected by a very significant Iranian superstrate, brought by various settlers from the Steppes.

There seems to be no evidence for an Iranian substrate in Germanic. It looks closer to Balto-Slavic.

Please show me your evidence.

JuanRivera said...

According to you, do Yukaghirs, Chukchis, Koryaks, Alyutors, Kereks, Itelmens and Siberian Yupiks possess G2a and J2a2a?

JuanRivera said...

This one was to @George.

JuanRivera said...

@mzp1 Are you taking genetic evidence into account? Also, Gutians spoke an unknown language, which we know that wasn't pre-Gothic, nor Germanic at all.

Gaspar said...

One thing to consider is who was in Iran circa 1000BC, because the Persians ( Parsi ) where still in Tajik and Uzbek lands, they only began to move to Iran roughly at the beginning of the iron-age.
What haplogroups did the Parsi bring to Iran ?

Andrzejewski said...

@Davidski The word “Siberian” is confusing: when posters on Eurogenes claim that PU speakers have Siberian ancestry or Siberian Y-DNA markets it baffles the heck out of me because when not being specific it’s hard for me to understand whether they are referring to Baikal HG (are the latter “ANE”), EHG or WSHG.

I have purused your recent blog entries re: confirmed Siberian (Uralic) origins of Finnic, Saami and Estonians, dating them to post-Yamnaya IE migrations to the Baltic. It’s eatinated by geneticists that Y-Hap N originated in SE Asia or China proper and traveled all the way to Europe. Also, reading scientific peer reviewed articles concerning the Tarim Basin Mummies it’s said that they packed lots of “Siberian” mtdna on the maternal side. Therefore, this whole “Siberian” term seems off-the-mark here.

I also wonder if Kostenki Man was WSHG himself, Hap K. My own hypothesis is that WSHG (Western Siberian HG) are offsprings of Haplogroup K Kostenki Man, that their phenotype was similar to either Kostenki or Burushko, and that they spoke a Sumerian-like language and had Y-Dna K.

What do you think?

Andrzejewski said...

@Ric Hern Do you think PIE was a language isolate?

Davidski said...

@Andrzejewski

Kostenki man definitely wasn't WSHG. His genome is in my dataset and he has exactly zero WSHG ancestry. You can confirm this via peer reviewed scientific literature.

Having said that, it seems to me that you're taking peer reviewed scientific literature way too seriously. A fair proportion of it is just garbage.

You need to be more critical about what that you're reading online, including the peer reviewed stuff, and I'd recommend that you start looking at the data yourself to try and understand it better.

Andrzejewski said...

The Samara was the earliest civilizations in European Russia discovered by Anthroplogists and Archeologists.

There was some considerable shift to CHG from Samara —> Khvalynsk and even Khvalynsk —> Repin and Yamnaya. Where exactly did chg component come from and when is a matter of scholarly debate.

It must be either that: R1b (with some R1a1) “created” a Steppish language and that the CHG shifted Samara to Khvalynsk and added a CHG adstratum to do with war, Kurgan death, religion and elite dominance. Maybe the domestication of the horse, metallurgy and other innovations (stratified society) cake with this Caucasus elite (including even the word “Arya”, noble; or - the North Caspian Samara, Khvalynsk, Repin gradually spread West, met with Farmer-based Cucuteni and other cultures, and in the process assimilated a CHG substratum.

In any case, both R1b and R1a1 spoke related dialects of the same language family, and most of the IE DNA and lexicon came originally from the vicinity of Lake Baikal.

Davidski said...

@Andrzejewski

It must be either that: R1b (with some R1a1) “created” a Steppish language and that the CHG shifted Samara to Khvalynsk and added a CHG adstratum to do with war, Kurgan death, religion and elite dominance.

R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 are native to Eastern Europe, and there are no Caucasus Y-haplogroups in Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk, Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Sintashta, etc.

So are you claiming that women from the Caucasus were this elite group who moved into the steppe and introduced the war cult into the cultures there?

Davidski said...

By the way, the Samara culture wasn't a civilization. It's just an archeological culture, and a pretty poor one at that.

E. Donovan said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Deer_Cave_people

At least Samara beats the old Franco-Cantabrian refugium theory of "Celtic" R1b origins.

Dragos said...

Just one other thing about the post
“but suffice to say that it's imperative for many people, particularly those of Near Eastern and Southern European backgrounds, ”

As a Romanian who is in the middle ground here, I can only point out that these people that you tend to deride have cause to look at other theories
Between the views of MPI and the amatuerish pseudoscience being vomited here by people Andrzejewski, you guys need to check your own confirmation biases, and perhaps go back to school
I think the world is sick of being told a version of “truth” cooked up by America and it’s west European puppets
Merry Christmas

Andrzejewski said...

@Davidski I tend to think that exogamy was a reason that this so-called CHG component was so meaningful (25%-30% in Khvalynsk, up to 43% in Yamnaya).

It is known that Steppe mtDNA was very diverse: H, HV, K, T, U4, U6, Z, J, K, N and even some X. I would attribute these markers to exogamy. I still maintain that the mainstay of PIE culture is anchored in R*, MA1/AG3 and specifically the rejoining of R1a1 and R1b on the PC Steppe to create a unique PIE spectrum/horizon.

I may be wrong but I’ve read that there was a major upheaval in material culture and change in lifestyle in the transformation of Samara into Khvalynsk and Repin. Not sure what actually has happened although among the noticeable changes were the switch to burial in Kurgan mounts and the demonstration of the horse (which previously had been regarded as a meat source and has later been worshipped and ritually eaten by Celtic and Germanic tribes pre-Christianization).

I do wonder however how come the CHG part of Steppe ancestry was so high as per Haas, Lazaridis 2015.

JuanRivera said...

Using conspiracy theories, especially the explicitly paranoid ones represents that one is losing and ran out of rational arguments. And no one is making up truth, and if you don't give rational arguments, I'll interpret that paranoia as a sign you're desperate. By the way, a sizable chunk of us here in the US (including me) are way more tolerant of all classes of people and strongly condemn the things the far-right Trump administration is saying and doing.

Andrzejewski said...

@Dragos “As a Romanian who is in the middle ground here, I can only point out that these people that you tend to deride have cause to look at other theories
Between the views of MPI and the amatuerish pseudoscience being vomited here by people Andrzejewski, you guys need to check your own confirmation biases, and perhaps go back to school...”

———

As an American whose 4 grandparents hail from Poland it is my interest to find out in the end of the day that my ancestors have as close to PIE as possible on both parental dna. And judging by if I understood correctly a major study undertaken recently and posted here on the blog, it seems that Poland, as a geographic heir to East-CWC culture must have inherited Steppe ancestry (55% Ria1, 30% R1b) not only uniparentally like all of Europe but also saw a major contribution on mdDNA side.

Not that I see anything wrong with the contributions of EEF and WHG to European populations, ancient and contemporary, I’m largely at a loss attempting to put the pieces together between linguistic, genetic, cultural, phenotypical and anthropological data.

To wit, we are told that it was Anatolia_N who brought genes responsible for light skin to Europe yet its descendants are mostly tanned, brown haired and brown eyed Mediterranean’s; one moment I read that WHG a-la-LaBrana were described as “dark skinned” whereas SHG like Motala are responsible for modern Swedish’s blue eyes, light skin and red hair. And then a later contradictory study asserts that Swedish have much higher Anatolia_N/EEF than either WHG or SHG.

The crucial point here is that Yamnaya was supposed to descend from AG3, the first mutation to feature blond hair among post-LGM populations but Haak and Lazaridis regard them to be dark haired, dark eyed and only moderately light.

Contradicting the findings even more and adding complexity is the confirmed brunette features of Anatolia_N and Levant_N, and yet European populations descending from these populations look starkly different than Middle Eastern ones descending from these 2.

JuanRivera said...

That conspiracy theory is actually as factual as creationism, flat earth, racialism, JFK theories and climate denialism.

JuanRivera said...

There's selective pressure. One trait is either innovated or acquired from mixture with another population, and that trait soon rises to be the dominant trait because it's advantageous (natural selection in other words).

Andrzejewski said...

@JuanRivera which conspiracy theory?

JuanRivera said...

The one that @Dragos made up.

Vara said...

"I don't want to get into the details about that here, but suffice to say that it's imperative for many people, particularly those of Near Eastern and Southern European backgrounds"

I didn't know Balanovsky and his Moscow Linguists and Germans and guys from Massachusetts were all South Europeans.

Tsk, tsk. It seems this has always been a them vs us thingy. Don't believe me? Go to the previous post and look up how dum-dum Andrzejewski thought I was an Indian advocating for OIT.

JuanRivera said...

I engage arguments rather than the people who make them, except when they start getting irrational and paranoid.

Ric Hern said...

@ Andrzejewski

There apparently were a destruction of Forts in the Northern Caucasus around +-5000 BCE by Steppe people. Maybe they abducted the women ? On the other hand CHG had some ANE ancestry and for this reason I think CHG formed at the Lower Don. Maybe we need Mesolithic samples from the Caucasus Piedmont Steppe area ?

Samuel Andrews said...

@Andre,

David Reich sometimes makes conclusive statements when ancient DNA doesn't give a conclusive answer yet. For example, the claim WHG originated in the Middle East or Yamnaya had Iranian farmer ancestry.

He also says in his speeches at conferences...
Anatolia_N gave light skin, WHG blue eyes, and ANE blonde hair.

This is not true. Anatolia_N also had genes for blue eyes at a high frequency, some WHGs had mostly brown eyes, many European hunter gatherers had skin as light as Anatolia_N. And Yamnaya had skin as light as Anatolia_N.

Just from that information we know the truth is more complicated.

But oddly enough even though the most Anatolia_N-rich pops today are southern Europeans, it does appear that Funnel Beaker & Globular Amphora farmers of mostly Anatolia_N origin were very blonde and that their traits were favored in new hybrid Bronze age populations in northern Europe. But, the truth might be more complicated.

This is very weird especially for Baltic_BA who was very blonde but only had 15% Anatolia_N ancestry.

@JuanRivera,
"There's selective pressure. One trait is either innovated or acquired from mixture with another population, and that trait soon rises to be the dominant trait because it's advantageous (natural selection in other words)."

Yes, but this can quickly become an excuse. It can be used to explain away any phenotype data we don't understand. "Natural selection did it."

Ric Hern said...

Maybe some people of the Kamennaya Balkovsky Culture survived by migrating between the Lower Don and the Northern Caucasus ? Maybe Iran CHG was due to a migration along the Kuban River or Northern Caucasus from the Lower Don River area towards the Southeast ?

Dragos said...

@ Andrzejewski
You’re not a real European
Your Blonde Siberian Palaeolithic PIE theory is nonsense
American creationism to rationalise the raping of the native Americans
“Manifest destiny”, return of the ANEs, etc
You and JuanRivera are just wannabes

Ric Hern said...

In other words a migration during the Upper Paleolithic from Anatolia and Northern Levant to Imereti. Then from there to Kamennaya Balka at the Lower Don where they could have acquired ANE. Then a backmigration maybe split in two to the Caucasus Northwest and Southeast. The Southeastern migration maybe formed the Zarzian Culture of the Zagros...

E. Donovan said...

"Return of the ANEs"

It could be the Uralic Jedi, who were actually evil and predecessors of Ming the Merciless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niuheliang

But I admire the Sith. At least they started off well. Here's one from Ireland (Samara)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daire_Doimthech

Davidski said...

Alright, moderation is going back on.

VAsistha said...

Epoch says “Let's see: We have a Steppe and R1a rich group on the doorstep of India. We have Swat culture with burials and cremations side by side, where the burials show steppe admixture but no R1a. We have a tad later burial in the area *with* steppe and R1a. We have basically confirmation that IVC had no steppe or R1a. We know that present day Indians have steppe and.. R1a! We know that predecessors of Steppe populations carried.. R1a!”
You should understand that a later influx of steppe and R1a does not mean that its causal to Vedic people and vedic Sanskrit. Tons of proof of vedic people already living in NW india pre 2000bc.
Vedic ritual manuals “Sutras” have many ways to dispose of the dead – cremation, and post cremation burial being a few of them. http://www.salagram.net/antyesti-ceremonies-functions.htm
‘A goat was sacrificed and the pile was lit up. Women expressed their grief (Atharvaveda XVIII.2.4.8)’
Which is funny because at Sanauli, “Very interesting was the recovery of a trough like object of clay which seemed to have become hard and red due to firing. The excavators believe that it was used for cremation since ash and charred bones were found in it (fig. 8). At Sanauli there were also evidence of animals like goat and ox sacrificed along with the dead. Goat from Burial 5 and ox from burial 52 and 53 were recovered. Also lids with bird motifs were found. All these point towards the ritual aspect. The excavators have tried to link them to references in the Rig Veda and the AtharvaVeda (Sharma et al. 2006: 178).” From http://www.heritageuniversityofkerala.com/JournalPDF/Volume1/244-261.pdf
Post cremation burials have been found at many sites – Harappa, mohenjodaro, chanjodaro, lothal, kalibangan being few. Lothal only has 17 graves dug so far for a town of 15000, so most likely cremation was in full vogue.

Epoch said “While Swat burials may not have been R1a, I reckon the cremations were R1a people.”
Very convenient argument lol.

And of course, fire altars pre 2000bc have been found at various locations in NW india and Gujarat, so theres that. All the temples to the great rsis of the Vedas are to be found only in the snow heavy mountains of Himachal Pradesh (Rsi Bhrigu, Vashishta, Bharadwaj, Vishwamitra). Tradition says that those temples are there from time immemorial.

Slumbery said...

@Mzp1
"Scythians and their early ancestors have always been moving into the region around the south of the Caspian. Probably raiding, trading and settling activities from their bases on the Steppe. No reason why this cant go back into the Chalcolithic."

Except for the minor detail that there is absolutely zero archaeological trace of the movements and even the existence of such groups in the region until around the time when the Andronovo horizon started to build up and that is late even for the more realistic Bronze Age dating. If they came around the Caspian (and "always" on top of that) they had to be ninjas, because they sneaked through vast ANE-HG territories without leaving behind as much as a thrown away broken tool. Not to mention that the East Caspian was a lake-swamp land the time.
Then there is other minor detail that 7500 years ago such people did not exist anywhere at all. The technology/culture you imply did not exist until much later.

So what you just wrote is just completely departed from reality.

Davidski said...

@VAsistha

R1a-Z645-rich Steppe_MLBA is the only real genetic link between R1a-Z645-rich Balto-Slavs and Indo-Aryans, and thus it's the only way that Indo-European languages could have spread to South Asia.

Also, your argument is based on the comical assumption that Steppe_MLBA genome-wide ancestry spread into South Asia during the Bronze Age, and was followed by Steppe_MLBA Y-chromosomes during the Medieval period.

Slumbery said...


"Tradition says that those temples are there from time immemorial."

I find it believable and even likely that there were temples at those places since before 2000 BC. After all sacred places often survive big cultural transitions, especially if big parts of the substratum culture are integrated and nobody claims that Harappan and related cultures were wiped out without a trace (quite the opposite).
However on a more general note, by the usual working mechanism of tradition based memory, even just 100 years can be "time immemorial". So "tradition says" is not a reliable way to determine the age of anything.

VAsistha said...

@slumbery my only point with those temples was that those Rsis most likely dwelled there in the himachal pradesh himalayas. no point in dating the temple as theyre wooden and are renovated from time to time.

VAsistha said...

@davidski says "Also, your argument is based on the comical assumption that Steppe_MLBA genome-wide ancestry spread into South Asia during the Bronze Age, and was followed by Steppe_MLBA Y-chromosomes during the Medieval period."

no, both steppe mlba and y chromosomes arrived after 1100bc and has no bearing on origin or arrival of indo iranian into NW india.

Mouthful said...

It seems to be getting worse and worse here with people, their biases and crackpot theories and especially people obsessing over physical appearance like hair/eye color which is hardly relevant.

Davidski said...

@VAsistha

no, both steppe mlba and y chromosomes arrived after 1100bc and has no bearing on origin or arrival of indo iranian into NW india.

Nope, Steppe_MLBA ancestry and R1a spread into India already 1500 BC or earlier. Ancient DNA will show this.

epoch said...

@VAsistha

Even is this was evidence for cremation, and from the text it is clear that this certainly not sure, it still would be quite different from the Swat cremations as I get from your URL you paste no buried urn with charred bones was found.

"Very convenient argument lol."

Frankly, it isn't an argument. I already made clear what convinces me makes an steppe origin for R1a inevitable. This is basically an possible explanation. See also my response to Dragos.

VAsistha said...

"Nope, Steppe_MLBA ancestry and R1a spread into India already 1500 BC or earlier. Ancient DNA will show this."

Hope is eternal. Vagheesh also agrees with you in his prepint - Summary of Key findings. It says

"By 1500 BCE, there were numerous individuals in the Kazakh Steppe with East Asian-related admixture, the same type of ancestry that was widespread by the Scythian period (34). This ancestry is hardly present in the two primary ancestral populations of South Asia—ANI and ASI—suggesting that Steppe ancestry widespread in South Asia derived from earlier southward movements."

However in Vagheesh's dataset, we have 2 1100bc R1a samples from uzbekistan with no east asian related ancestry, wonder why Vagheesh ignored this, maybe to make conclusion fit the hypothesis.

There are 44 male samples from Iran/Turan/BMAC covering modern iran, uzbekistan, turkmenistan since chalcolithic period 3000bc. Only 2 have R1a, those being the youngest samples.

Davidski said...

@VAsistha

I'm not interested in your crackpot theories.

It's obvious that steppe ancestry and R1a entered India during the Bronze Age, because otherwise there's no explanation for the high diversity of R1a there and presence of local old lineages like R1a-L657.

Andrzejewski said...

What about the Tocharians? They were presumed to be the direct descendants of the Tarim Basin Mummies although there are many holes in this theory. First, they were supposed to be heirs of the Afanasyeva Culture which were identical to Yamnaya genetically but recently it seemed as though they had more of a CWC genetic composition, in light of the EEF + WHG on their uniparental maternal side. They were assumed to be related to the ancient Celtic and Germanic people based on their garments (tartan, el al), and also turns out that like Yamnaya and Bell Beaker they were also predominantly R1b and Centum speakers, unlike their Scythian neighbors, whose ancestors were the Sintashta Culture, and who were both r1a1 and Satem speakers.

The fact that both Sintashta-offsprings and the Tocharians (="Wusun", "Yuezhi", "Kushan") were CWC rather than pure Yamnaya, nevertheless the latter being a different R marker, renders them an outlier. Could it be then that Tocharians are an offshoot of the R1b Centum Bell Beaker (and NOT Corded Ware), which could explain their EEF/WHG admixture?

Maybe then there was NOT a continuity between Tarim Basin Mummies and Tocharians, the latter being a MUCH LATER BELL BEAKER migration into the area, maybe as traders?

EastPole said...

New book: "Early Indians: The Story Of Our Ancestors And Where We Came From" by Tony Joseph

“the Harappans may have taken the available option of moving to new fertile regions such as the Ganga valley and starting afresh rather than finding new ways of keeping the old system going; and the influx of a new wave of warrior-like migrants from the Eurasia Steppe might have been just the last straw that broke the system for good. But though the Harappan Civilisation may have gone into decline by around 1900 BCE, the people did not disappear and neither did the language nor all of the associated cultural beliefs and practices of the largest civilisation of its time.
This is because when the civilisation dimmed due to the long drought, the Harappans spread out, to both the east and the south, seeking new fertile land and carrying their language, culture and at least some of their practices with them.
The “Aryans” arrived around this time or a little later with a pastoralist lifestyle, new religious practices such as large sacrificial rituals, a warrior tradition and mastery over the horse and metallurgy.
The result was a mixing of populations and the formation of a new power elite that was dominant enough to ultimately force a language shift to Indo-European across northern India.”

“The main gods and goddesses of the Rigveda – Indra, Agni, Varuna and the Asvins – find no representation in the vast repertoire of Harappan imagery. The converse is also true: the Rigveda is of no help in trying to interpret the dominant symbols and imagery of the Harappan culture – such as the ubiquitous seals that display a unicorn with what looks like a brazier or manger in front; the script; the Great Bath of Mohenjo-daro and its significance; and so on.”

https://scroll.in/article/906684/can-the-arrival-of-the-aryans-in-india-explain-the-disconnect-between-harappan-and-vedic-culture

Davidski said...

Are those unicorns on Harappan seals really unicorns, or are they just bulls standing sideways so that their two horns look like one?

This looks like a bull to me...

https://www.harappa.com/indus/25.html

Andrzejewski said...

Modern Northern Indian culture was formed by an invasion of pastoralists from Eastern Europe:

https://www.livescience.com/59703-north-india-populated-by-central-asian-invaders.html

Rg Veda was very similar to Slavic religious concepts, because ultimately they were both formed by Corded Ware Culture. Lithuanian and Sanskrit are both very close to PIE. The swastika was created on the Pontic Caspian Steppe at least 7000 years ago, got carried into India (originally it symbolized the cycle of life and the rebirth and rejuvenation thereof. The "Aryans" carried it all to India.

I have to gloat at the irony, reminiscing how according to Nazi Germany the Germanic people, heirs of the Nordic Bronze Age, with its 35% WHG/SHG Y-Hap I2a, with its strong Anatolia_N Funnelbeaker substratum in its non-IE vocabulary (+ maybe also Ertebolle WHG one as well), its strong EEF mtDNA were considered the "purest Indo-Europeans" whereas the Baltic-Slavs, with its strong Steppe mtDna (in addition to the ubiquitous uniparental paternal one common throughout all of Europe), its closeness of the Lithuanian language to PIE, not to mention that frequency of blond or red haired, blue or green eyed and fair skinned individual far outnumbered those within Germanic populations - were considered inferior and only one notch above the Jews.

Ric Hern said...

@ Andrzejewski

At the end of the day people can live in relative peace and harmony together until some politician opens his/her mouth. I see this every day. Most people just want to make a living without to many bumps in their way towards pension...

Garvan said...

Davidski said...
Are those unicorns on Harappan seals really unicorns, or are they just bulls standing sideways so that their two horns look like one?

The unicorn seals are clearly different from the seals depicting zebu bulls. The unicorns have long necks, stretched into an unnatural position for cattle, , while the zebu are clearly identifiable with humped backs and dewlaps. They look like two different species to me.

Ric Hern said...

For me it looks like Bos Taurus cattle. They basically had both Bos Taurus and Bos Indicus cattle at Harappa. Spanish Fighting Bulls have that same pose....

Ric Hern said...

That bull is 9 years old

Bob Floy said...

Really not sure why anyone would think that was a Unicorn. That horn is taurine and pointing away from us, it also looks like the artist tried to depict the other horn from the appropriate point of view.

Slumbery said...

@Andrzejewski
"First, they were supposed to be heirs of the Afanasyeva Culture which were identical to Yamnaya genetically but recently it seemed as though they had more of a CWC genetic composition, in light of the EEF + WHG on their uniparental maternal side."

Probably a founder effect of maternal lineages rooted in the regional variations of Yamnaya. In terms of autosomal ancestry Afanasievo is nothing like classic CWC and it does not have farmer or WHG ancestry above Yamnaya or just noise level.

G25 nMontes Afanasievo
Barcin N: 0.83
WHG: 0
West Siberia N: 0.83
Yamnaya Samara: 98.33
Fit: 0.9788

G25 nMontes Afanasievo
EHG: 0
Globular Amphora: 0
West Siberia N: 0
Yamnaya Samara: 100
Fit: 1.0161


G25 nMontes Sintashta MLBA
Barcin N: 20.83
WHG: 6.67
West Siberia N: 0
Yamnaya Samara: 72.5
Fit: 2.6257

G25 nMontes Sintashta MLBA
EHG: 5
Globular Amphora: 30
West Siberia N: 0
Yamnaya Samara: 65
Fit: 1.7011

So Afanasievo does not have excess western ancestry, it is pretty much identical to Yamnaya and absolutely different from Sintashta.

Andrzejewski said...

@Ric Hern what are you talking about?

VAsistha said...

"Are those unicorns on Harappan seals really unicorns, or are they just bulls standing sideways so that their two horns look like one?"

Its most likely a composite. Bull + horse/ass + one more. https://youtu.be/dqKOtc2gKTs

Ric Hern said...

Let us leave politics for the politicians. Each to their own...

Francesco Brighenti said...

That the Harappan unicorn was one-horned is evinced from three-dimensional figurines of unicorns found at different Harappan sites -- see at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.harappa.com/sites/default/files/pdf/Kenoyer2013%2520Indus%2520Unicorns-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiUjafFqL3fAhUFfBoKHXpJA0MQFjAKegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw3NNxvDqMfKyPEX20iOlw40&cshid=1545821290408

Matt said...

@Andrzejewski: with its 35% WHG/SHG Y-Hap I2a

Today I2a somewhat frequent in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus (10% or more), not particularly high (not 35%) in any Germanic speaking country.

E.g. : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Percentage_of_major_Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_Europe.png / https://external-preview.redd.it/p-WMT9IIXwkRQe776UtVkcEjzv_mUbWvF8D-BFgK_2U.gif?format=png8&s=ed8616ef0e10ab70292d2d5ed56dbe9f5d8aab8a.

I1 common in Germanic countries, not I2a.

Today's I2a is not very plausible proximately from excess WHG/SHG; only plausible populations enriched in WHG/SHG (probably WHG), seem around the Baltic, don't have it in any great frequency. Northern Slavic populations must be heirs to some population that had relatively high frequencies of I2a.

@ Andrzejewski: whereas the Baltic-Slavs, with its strong Steppe mtDna

Not sure if there is a big difference in steppe mtdna between Eastern or Western Europe. It has not been clearly reported that there. But if there is, since the autosome doesn't range too much difference in Anatolian ancestry* (as Davidski noted to you in the last thread, I believe), that implies a somewhat male biased infusion of Anatolian ancestry to Eastern Europe.

*Various estimates of this, but I don't think it's all moved on that much from Davidski's qpAdm tour of Europe: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/01/qpadm-tour-of-europe-bronze-age-invasion.html . About 40% European Late Neolithic ancestry in Belarus/Poland and 46% in Germany and 43% Scotland, while Steppe EBA ancestry goes about 43% in Belarus/Poland to 39% Germany and 46% Scotland. Small range across North Europe.

twój stary said...

You changed the numbers on purpose. Poles have around 34% farmer/LBK ancestry, Belarusians possibly even less. When it comes to steppe ancestry, it's much higher than 40%, probably in 50+ range. But we see what we want to see...

Andrzejewski said...

@twój stary so it mean that WHG in Poles is ~15%?

twój stary said...

If I remember correctly GAC farmers in Poland were 60/40 EEF/WHG. So WHG is probably higher than 15. Especially considering the fact that we border WHG-"rich" Balts.

Andrzejewski said...

@twój stary Tak. Dziekuje! I recall @Davidski wrote recently that the GAC were very blond due to the farmer component and that the reason Sintashta were blond is because of all the Corded Ware absorbed GAC which was mostly farmer, (and not Yamnaya being a cause of blondness).

So essentially based on the fact that Yamnaya (or Sredny Stog in the case of Corded Ware) constitute approximately 50% of aDNA of our modern Polish nation, would you say that contemporary Polska is more of less:

50% Steppe ancestry
30% Anatolia_N (farmers)
20% WHG ???

twój stary said...

Possibly. I would switch WHG with Anatolia_N to piss off Germanophiles and people akin to Angela and Maciamo though. Don't ban me, Dawid. I dindu nuffin.

twój stary said...

Also. The reason for lighter pigmentation of East Euro/Baltic HG's has nothing to do with farmers(essentialy MENA people). I think it's the fact that Baltic HG's were always less pigmented than their West Euro counterparts. And they passed it onto farmers, which in turn, passed it to CWC(which despite the agenda were bright already) And so on. You get the point.

Andrzejewski said...

What do you mean “switch WHG with Anatolia_N to piss off Germanophiles”?

I only want the truth!

Andrzejewski said...

@ twój stary "Also. The reason for lighter pigmentation of East Euro/Baltic HG's has nothing to do with farmers(essentialy MENA people). I think it's the fact that Baltic HG's were always less pigmented than their West Euro counterparts. And they passed it onto farmers, which in turn, passed it to CWC(which despite the agenda were bright already) And so on. You get the point."

_______________

I actually think that the gradual skin lightening that took place after 6500ybp is due to an influx of a non-Steppe-related-CHG component, hence increasing the mtDNA H ratio from 8000 ybp of 19%, which is the average frequency within Middle Eastern populations, to 40%-50% now.

I believe that the gradual lightening of Europeans' skin tone from 6500ybp onward also coincides according to a 2015 paper by Lazaridis to a partial replacement of Europe's first farmers (EEF, EEF/WHG, Anatolia_N) with a more fair skinned Caucasus Hunter Gatherer population. To wit, the Etruscans, Linear A Minoans, some Balkanic population have been completely replaced with a CHG populations, before the Yamnaya partially-replaced more. That's why Southern Europe is very low on LaBrana-style WHG (except for Basques and to a degree - Sardinians): The WHG have been largely replaced by Anatolian farmers, the latter have been replaced by CHG and THEN during and after Bronze Age, CHG themselves have been partially assimilated or replaced by the Yamnaya via Baden, CWC, Beaker, etc.

Andrzejewski said...

Correction: I meant to type that Etruscans, Linear A Minoans, Paleo-Balkanic and perhaps even Sardinians but not Basques quintessentially derive from a J1/J2 CHG lineage rather than a Hap-G Anatolia_N.

twój stary said...

Yeah. But the difference between Iberian, Greek, Italian and Middle Eastern "pale" skin and East Euro one is clear to see. They can't have the same source.

Unknown said...

"If you want to see what "great embarrassment" looks like, have a look at the conclusion in the Wang et al. preprint."

@Davidski


And yet wang et al. agrees with the PIE language homeland being Iran. Go figure. Your claim otherwise is looking really thin. Reich, Wang, Krause, Christensen all on the same boat as NW Iran = PIE language homeland. Trying to skew it any other way to fit the old European narrative is a super hard sell out of this blog of yours, no matter how many of your amateur readers agree with you. The scientists you draw all your data from, don't agree.

Davidski said...

Yeah, great arguments there...

So and so say this and that, so it must be true.