A new dataset has appeared online from a yet to be published paper titled
Cosmopolitanism in the depths of Barbaricum evidenced by archaeogenomic data from the Late Iron Age Goth community of the Masłomęcz group [Update: the paper is now available at this
Link].
Most of these Gothic samples are clearly of Scandinavian origin, and very similar to present-day Swedes. Overall, however, they create a somewhat heterogeneous cluster that also overlaps with present-day Poles thanks to the presence of a few Balto-Slavic-related and possibly Roman-related individuals.
The Principal Component Analysis (PCA) plots below were produced with the excellent
Vahaduo G25 Global Views tool using the data
here.
Their Y-haplogroups more or less reflect the PCA results:
PL046 R-YP6228
PL048 I-PH833
PL049 I-A11537
PL052 R-Y48961
PL059 I-PH833
PL062 I-S15301
PL065 I-Y294193
PL066 R-FGC2555
PL067 R-S7759
PL070 I-CTS10028
PL071 I-BY316
PL076 I-S9318
PL082 I-Z2041
PL085 J-Z38241
PL086 I-FT29339
See also...
Early Slavs from Tribal Period Poland
Wielbark Goths were overwhelmingly of Scandinavian origin
High-resolution stuff
1,173 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 1173 Newer› Newest»@Ebizur
Technically, you're right again—we can only confirm that it's R1, but I assume you'll agree with me that it can only be R1b. So, given its proximity to Villabruna and its dating, common sense tells me that we're dealing with another L754 or P297 specimen.
And there must be many others, even though the West has been overwhelmingly dominated by I2a-M438 for millennia. This is the opposite of what happened in the Balkans o el Baltico, where I2a arrived in a region dominated by R1b.
My question is, which sample is considered the earliest to belong to the WHG cluster? And does it contain North Eurasian hunter-gatherer admixture?
@Rob
All of Europe—from north to south and east to west—is full of R1b, especially since the mesolithic. Romania, Serbia, and Bulgaria in particular, where there is not only V88 but also L754 and M269. Many of these R1b samples in the west are clearly R1b-V88, but there are also L754 and other questionable samples that could also belong to this group.
We also have V88 in Denmark, M73 in Norway and the Baltic, V88 & L754 (5000 BCE) in Bohemia, V88 in Germany, Italy (Continenza-5209 BCE), Iberia (Chaves-5134 BCE), and Sardinia (Noeddale-4189 BCE). Most of them reached the west during the neolithic, but there are surely more mesolithic samples. I’m sure Gimbutas’s supporters think that those western R1b samples (regardless of which branch they belong to) spoke a different language from their relatives, the R1b samples of the Russian or Ukrainian steppes, but in my opinion, this doesn’t make much sense. The funny thing is that, eleven years ago, everyone thought that R1b came from the steppes, bringing their Indo-European language with them; I think it’s time for someone to redefine that theory, adapting it to the knowledge we have today.
The discovery of a Balkan HG-L761 (70% WHG) in Romania makes that region of the Balkans key to understanding the origin of R1b-P297. On the other hand, L23 and Z2103 are clearly steppe markers & U106 & L151 central europeans; the only remaining question is the origin of L51
@Mr Shomu
The Villabruna cluster (WHGs), as I currently understand it, is found in Italy following the Last Glacial Maximum (Paglicci—17,000 BCE, Grotta de Mura, Tagliente 2, San Teodoro in Sicily, Villabruna, etc.). These people are partly descended from the Gravetians and have some ANE admixture, but what apparently sets them apart is an Anatolian influence (many geneticists argue for a Near Eastern influence, which is debatable but possible). We now know that they intermixed with the Magdalenian people in the west and with the Pinarbasi people along the Danube. The role of R1b-L754 in all this is currently negligible because they are overwhelmingly I2a-M438 or even I1-M253; in my opinion, the Balkans are the key, but time will tell who is right.
@ Ebizur
''..the specimen from Iboussières, his Y-DNA can only be determined to belong to haplogroup R1''
Thanks. So if Iboussieres is certainly R1, then it must mean he's R1b-L761, allowing for coverage & common sense.
For west of the Balkans, that gives Villabruna (west Epigravett), Iboussieres (west Epigravett), and Blatterhohle (hunter-farmer) as R1b-L754->V88. An interesting handful
''the Tianyuan man must have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup K2-M526''
The so-called "Eastern Non-Africans' and the various Y-hg K clades were present throughout Eurasia (Balkans, West Siberia, East Asia, South Asia). I bet if we had pre-35000 bp individuals from west Europe, they'd be there too (there are a couple of remnant mtDNA M in Goyet, etc).
More specifically, Y-hg P* could have moved north from somewhere near India, some going to northeast Siberia, some toward west Siberia, eventually diversifying into R & Q. During the Ice Age, R groups moved in various directions (Iran- Central Asia, East Europe), whilst Siberia became repopulated by Y-hg Q & C.
@Gaska
Okay, we have Mesolithic R1b in Europe, but did they survive into the Neolithic? I know there are Baltic ones, but autosomally they are more associated with the IGHG, so what about the rest of Europe? I mean the ones after the Anatolian influx. We have so many samples from the Neolithic and Chalcolithic of Europe — are there any R1b of interest among them? Or were they wiped out and assimilated by incoming ANF? Then why do you claim that Yamna R1b is from Europe? It is not there in the Neolithic and Chalcolithic.
TMRCA estimates courtesy of FTDNA:
R1-M173: TMRCA 21,799 (99% CI 26,356 - 17,745) ybp
R-M269: TMRCA 6,484 (99% CI 7,869 - 5,271) ybp
R-M417: TMRCA 5,433 (99% CI 6,602 - 4,410) ybp
An overwhelming majority of extant members of Y-DNA haplogroup R1 belong either to R-M269 or to R-M417. The Iboussieres specimen has lived several millennia before the MRCA of either of those now-common subclades.
The Iboussieres specimen may indeed have belonged to a branch of R1b with a similar phylogenetic position as the Iron Gates specimens or the Villabruna specimen, but I do not think it is good practice to declare, without substantive evidence, that he was in fact a member of such a branch.
As for Y-DNA haplogroup K2, I think the nomenclature should bear part of the blame for the phenomenon of people assuming that all members of subclades of K2 must be closely related to one another. In reality, members of QR, NO, M, S, etc. are barely more closely related to one another than any of them is related to any member of haplogroup I, haplogroup J, or even haplogroup H or haplogroup G. It is easy to see that K2 must have spread very widely at some early date (I estimate that it should have begun to spread by ~50 kybp) based on its presence in Germany ~46 kybp, Western Siberia ~45 kybp, and North China ~40 kybp as well as its ubiquitous presence and tremendous internal diversity in present-day Australasia. I would say that K2 is just another generic (proto-)Upper Paleolithic lineage, similar to any other member of F-M89.
@Ebizur
A kind of Eurasian panmixia of haplogroups seems to have been a thing. Eventually they'd become more or less frequent in select populations over the course of the Upper Paleolithic.
@Mr Shomu
The picture in mainland Europe is becoming clearer: we now have R1b-L754 in the Epigravettian period, R1b-P297 in the Mesolithic, and three samples of R1b-M269 from the Romanian and Bulgarian NEOLITHIC (Starcevo-Koros-Cris & Gumelnita-Karanovo). So, at least in the Balkans, there is genetic continuity within the R1b lineage. I assume you’ll agree with this, unless you think that R1b-M269 is a lineage of the ANF.
The predominant male haplogroups of the Yamnaya culture have their earliest origins in the Balkans (I2a-L699 and M269). Others are very rare and have their origins in the Baltic (R1b-M73), in Khvalinsk (V1636), and in Siberia (Q). With the data we have, how can anyone argue that R1b originated in Russia, Mongolia, Ukraine, or the Caucasus? It’s a joke, isn’t it? I’ve said it dozens of times: we’ll only be able to change our minds when R1b samples older than the ones we know of appear. If that happens, we’ll acknowledge it without any problem, but in the meantime, you’re defending a fairy tale.
@Ebizur
Thankfully, the fact that the BAM files for ancient samples are publicly available has opened up the genetic debate to everyone. Many people can analyze ancient genomes, and discrepancies can be discussed. This is the case with Iboussieres, who, officially, can only be classified as R1-M173 due to the uncertainty raised by the positive SNP at L754. No one is claiming that academia should also classify it as L754 or P297; I am simply saying that since R1a has never appeared in Western Europe, common sense tells us that given its age it must be R1b-M343 > L754 > P297. And don't forget that we also know that the Italian-Balkan Epigravetians intermingled with the Iberian and French Magdalenian people. I think that’s common sense, isn’t it?
This debate is nothing new; it happened with ATP3 in Iberia, which was recognized as at least R1b-P297 by Harvard ten years after its publication, or with the R1b-M269 sample from Smyadovo.
Regarding Villabruna and Pestera Climente, both have ancestral markers for P297 and V88, but they lack coverage for L389, so they could very well belong to this marker. If R1b-V88 appears in the Balkans around 9000 BCE, why wouldn’t very ancient samples of P297 also appear in that region, especially since we also have M269 neolithic samples there? At the moment, we know that P297 is present in the Baltic and Karelia, but since R1b-L754 is not found in those regions, common sense tells us that these must be migrants from the Balkans who recolonized those regions as the ice retreated. What has been completely debunked so far is the theory that these markers originated in the steppes or Siberia.
Eastern Caucasian branch of the R1bZ2103:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTG16563/tree
@Gioiello
I'm reading that supposedly Germanic languages are predominantly Centum, sometimes they're considered a Centum-Satem hybrid, with the Satem influence being secondary
If those linguistic insights are correct, that secondary Satem influence could come from:
1). R1a folks contributing a minor admixture into the Single Grave Culture, which brought CWC cultural features to SGC and eventually gave a rise to a minor Germanic branch R1a-L664
2). Battle Axe Culture (R1a-Z284)
Could be a mix of both, but:
1). First option has a backing in the fact that R1a-L664 is present among both West Germanic and North Germanic speakers
2). Second option is murky due to R1a-Z284 geneflow having little-to-no reach among West Germanic speakers
@ Shomu
'Then why do you claim that Yamna R1b is from Europe? ''
Anyway the Don region, from where Yamnaya probably expanded, is in Europe
@Rob
A Kura–Araxes individual with a Yamnaya burial rite?
"Today, during the clearing of another burial in the upper layers of the settlement, traces of red ochre were noticed.
The burial was made in an oval-shaped pit. The skeleton was laid on its side, with the limbs bent at the elbows and knees. The skull was crushed under the weight of the soil. In the area of the feet, near the heel bones, and on the ribs, small traces of red ochre can be seen. This may be one of the signs of a funerary rite that, in a regular and repeated form, we do not yet observe in other burials.
This is also a clear indication that the inhabitants of the settlement of Zidyan-Kazmalyar were familiar with ochre, obtained it somewhere, and used it in rituals reflecting their spiritual and cultural life"
https://t.me/AskerkhanProDagestan/1221?single
Approximate coordinates of this site
https://www.google.com/maps?q=42.0861,48.1562
@ Shomu
''A Kura–Araxes individual with a Yamnaya burial rite?
https://t.me/AskerkhanProDagestan/1221?single ''
From the image, I can't see anything specifically Yamnaya-like, because there are no grave goods and the burial position does not strike me as Yamnaya. Looks like a high-flexed side position, which is seen throughout the west Eurasian post-Neolithic world. Ochre was also widely used, back to Epipaleolithic west Asia & Europe.
But there is no reason why KAx would not have adopted some Yamnaya traits. I have noticed that the domestic sphere of KAx was relatively homogeneous (typical houses, fireplaces, 'household metallurgy', ceramics); but there burial rites were diverse (single/ multiple; flat burials/ jar burials/ quasi-kurgans, etc)
file:///C:/Users/gioie/Documents/The_Proto_Indo_European_Origin_of_J1_P58.pdf
Sz Ig, I thank you for the paper and I'll read that with great interest, but I have been writng about that for all my life. The IE language did come from Yamnaya, my R1b-L23-Z2103, and before from the Siberian corridor and the link with the Siberian languages above all the Ugro-Finnic ones. Of course in Yamnaya and above all in Sintashta (above all hg R1a) some Caucasian hg like J entered the IE pool. From the charioteers of Sintashta not only the Mitanni but all the Mycenaean dinasties. I thought that hg J was entered in Middle East (Cadmo dinasty). We'll see.
file:///C:/Users/gioie/Documents/The_Origins_of_the_Surname_Bota_From_Per.pdf
Based on the size and preservation of the bones, they may have belonged to an adolescent. The estimated height was about 150 cm. The body was laid with the legs bent at the knees and the arms bent at the elbows. Because the field was intensively plowed during the Soviet period, the skull had already been crushed within the burial. It is difficult to determine the exact date due to the absence of burial goods. It most likely belongs to one of the Bronze Age periods. What is important in this burial is the presence of ochre traces. It can be assumed that the skeleton lay on a mat or surface painted with an ochre solution.
Currently, there is contention over the assignment of Khvalynsk and Afanasievo. Khvalynsk, in
particular, runs into a problem. FTDNA has identified the Khvalynsk individual I6735 with the Y-DNA
haplogroup J1-Z1841. However, ExploreYourDNA’s Haplogroup Explorer had designated this particular
sample as J1a2b. This is a common long-form for J1-P58.
While it may seem hasty that I have relied on the newer Haplogroup Explorer rather than the FTDNA
designation, this is not the first time that misassignments or differences in designation has occurred
with FTDNA. For example, recently, I had tested with DNAChron, which uses more advanced methods
of SNP testing. Within the past few days, their recent update to my Big-Y J1-C127097, identified as an
Imperial Era (200 BCE) mutation, shifted my subclade to J1-BY61095, an early Medieval (970 CE)
mutation. That is a whopping 1200 year difference between the two. p. 7
Marco, as you may see, this is the usual behaviour of the Jews of FTDNA, because 200 BCE permits a Jewish supposed origin, whereas 970 CE doesn't.
@Rob
By the way, this may also be very interesting for you and for others who are interested in the migrations of Indo-Europeans into Anatolia via the Balkans.
In the Beşiktaş district of Istanbul, during construction of the Kabataş–Mecidiyeköy–Mahmutbey metro line, mound burials dating to the Early Bronze Age were discovered.
The total number of burials has reached 124, including 45 kurgans of the Altai-Turkic type. These burials date to around 3500–3000 BC, meaning they are about 5,000–5,500 years old. The kurgans are stone circular structures with various forms of burial, including cremation and urn burials.
Particular attention was drawn to the discovery of leaves in one of the kurgans. They were found next to cremated remains and are thought to be connected with ancient rituals. The find is estimated to be about 5,500 years old.
Since this Facebook channel is pro-Turanist, they described them as “Turkic–Altai type kurgans.”
Personally, I have no doubt that these kurgans could be associated with Indo-Europeans. 👇
https://www.facebook.com/share/18jYBjkmMs/
@All
Does anyone have links to any credible academic or news sources about these Copper Age kurgans in western Anatolia?
https://www.facebook.com/share/18jYBjkmMs/
These sites have been known for quite some time. I think Ethan and I have linked article before
Eg Kurgans in Turkey? Should we believe in what we see?
By Mehmet Ozdogan
It seems to me this is an old story; the “pro-turanists” just found it and turned these kurgans from Indo-European into Altai, in order to make their presence in Turkey seem older.
There's a few news articles with bits and pieces you can dig up and translate from Turkish, but nothing comprehensive.
Apparently the majority of individuals were cremated? Which is both interesting and unfortunate.
https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/amp/prehistoric-tombs-found-during-excavations-in-istanbuls-busiest-square-164611
IE in Anatoia are a comlpexity, because Hittites adopted cremation, kinda like the advanced Indo-Aryans. There is an entire horizon from Balkans to Anatolia, Ezero related, but deeply set in Sredni Stog. But luckily there are a few inhumations because they also adopted flat & jar burials of the 'local tradition'.
By contrast, the “kurgans” in central-east Anatolia (Arslantepe, Alacahoyuk) are mostly non-IE, linked to Majkop or KAx (well, they’re not really kurgans)
@ Ethan
''There's a few news articles with bits and pieces you can dig up and translate from Turkish, but nothing comprehensive.''
Ozdogan has written several articles about it already.
https://istanbul.academia.edu/mehmetozdogan
Obviously the views there’s need some ironing out & updating with adna. I think some of his chronology is off as well.
Bread wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) is the most popular wheat species in the world today. However, studies on the domestication of wheat have rarely focused on the evolution of this specific species of Triticum. The discussions that have emerged have focused on the evolution of bread wheat, revealing it to have emerged from the hybridization of an already domesticated free-threshing wheat and the wild goatgrass known as Aegilops tauschii Coss. These studies, however, have focused on the previous genetic evidence, with data suggesting a date of circa 7,000 to 6,500 BC, and given the distribution of the parent grains, a locus of the South Caucasus and Southwest Caspian regions for its emergence. This paper discusses the archaeological data, including archaeobotanical and chronometric data from the excavations at Gadachrili Gora and Shulaveris Gora, Georgia of the South Caucasus, which provides physical evidence for the emergence of bread wheat and A. tauschii, supporting the aforementioned studies.
https://www.lifescience.net/publications/1993105/an-independent-center-for-the-origin-of-bread-whea
Could you elaborate on your theory of the origins of the Balto-Slavs and the Balto-Slavic drift? Is the Balto-Slavic drift connected to Aegean hunters? Did the Slavs emerge in the Bronze Age in the Carpathians? Or did they emerge later, from a mixture of Baltic and Hungarian bronzes?
Aegean hunters? Hahaha.
No, Balto-Slavic genetic drift is native to Eastern and East-Central Europe.
It's distantly derived from Eastern European hunter-gatherer genetic drift that mixed into Corded Ware populations as they expanded towards the Baltic region from the forest steppe.
However, Balto-Slavic drift in its true sense also includes the much more recent genetic drift that happened during the rapid expansions of Balts and Slavs across East-Central and Eastern Europe.
So, the Baltic and Slavic languages, like the closely related Indo-Iranian and Germanic languages, are derived from the Corded Ware culture.
But, just like the Indo-Iranian and Germanic speakers, Balts and Slavs are not pure descendants of Corded Ware people. They have ancestry from a variety of non-Indo-European groups that contributed to their specific genetic drift.
@ Davidski
"But, just like the Indo-Iranian and Germanic speakers, Balts and Slavs are not pure descendants of Corded Ware people. They have ancestry from a variety of non-Indo-European groups that contributed to their specific genetic drift".
Of course you're right. I frequently spoke about the origin of my Y not only in these last 5300 Years but perhaps in these last 15 or 20000 Years. Of course one thing is the uniparental markers and another the autosome, but even the autosome is composed of many uniparental markers. The best friend of my teen Years was Probably from a Longobard family, but he entered the Longboard pool perhaps from an Ostrogoth who lived and fought the Greek-Byzantine wars and, survived, entered the Longobard pool. He is G-L166, close to a Goth found in Poland but with no link at the autosome level with his close relatives as to the Y like Oetzi, whereas Italians like me are very close. Another friend of mine, named Bellandi, very likely descends from a Longobard family but her traits are the same of a woman of Swed of 8000 Years ago, so I think that her oldest ancestors probably were people who lived in Scandinavia at the first migration from Northern Siberia like the Sami, and they have still to-day the characteristics selected from those people.
@Maptysk wrote in his tweet:
If i had to draw the IE expansion with Arrows, this is how i'd do it :
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HG-mF3LaQAASfGs?format=jpg&name=large
I rrecall that Dancing Fragments' original theory was that Balto-Slavic drift being a fusion of Balkan_Farmers + Ukr-HGs. Chose to completely ignore advice that Baltic_BA can be adequately modelled as CW + Narva, probably because it didnt align with his pet theory. I have seen a lot of nonsense abotu Encrusted pottery , etc as well. I think people are getting imaginative with pretty much any form of HG ancestry east of Berlin/ Rome
On the other hand good on him for coming up for air in the real world, and leaving for a moment the Adult DayCare that is GeneArchivist
@ Mr Shomu tepe
I think that Latins/Sicels (R1b-Z2110) arrived in the Latium through the Adriatic and not through central Europe like Osco-Umbrians and the Euphratic people (R1b-Z2106) in Mesopotamia from North of the Black Sea and through Georgia.
I think most of the Balto-Slavic drift didn't exist before the Late Bronze Age and it formed in the already mixed Corded Ware + Narva population around the Baltics.
perhaps
proturanist writes:
According to current data, the hypothetical spread in the region of the "Anatolian" branch from the Pre-Indo-European peoples—who are thought to have arrived from northern Caucasia to northern Mesopotamia in the 4000s BCE and then dispersed into the interior of Anatolia, later differentiating into peoples such as the Hittites and Luwians.
https://x.com/oguzhantekden/status/2049376497052381199
@ Norfern
''I think most of the Balto-Slavic drift didn't exist before the Late Bronze Age and it formed in the already mixed Corded Ware + Narva population around the Baltics.''
This sentence is inherently self-contradictory
@Rob
The drift maximizes in the early 1st millenium BCE in Estonia and Latvia, no population prior to that has as much drift as they do. I seriously doubt the existence of a mysterious turbodrifted "Baltic HG" that has simply been left unsampled.
I'm going to bring your attention to a small, but surprisingly important in this context detail that pretty much everyone glossed over as "irrelevant"
Estonia_BA had the strongest genetic drift, Latvia_BA had a slightly weaker one, and Lithuania_BA the weakest
From this data point we can conclude that this genetic drift was originally native to the Northern Baltics specifically, and spreaded from there in a Southward direction
I wouldn't be surprised if adjacent to Estonia parts of Russia (Leningrad region, Northern part of Pskov region, Novgorod region) of the contemporary dating would also turn out to have a stronger genetic drift than Latvian/Lithuanian BA
The theory of a Balkan origin of this genetic drift doesn't really make any sense when you compare Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian BA to each other and see that this drift weakens in a geographical direction towards the Balkans (Lithuania being geographically closest to Balkans, Estonia farthest away)
Recent excavations at the site of Yassitepe Höyük (Bornova, Smyrna) have demonstrated a strong Mycenaean cultural influence, testifying that this particular settlement was an important center of trade and cultural contact between the Mycenaean Aegean and Western Anatolia.
Continued below the tweet in the comments -
https://x.com/hermahai/status/2049423470623064486?s=20
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-9509678/v1
Paper argues that the I-S12195 sample from Nicaea should be dated to late antiquity as opposed to its late medieval radiocarbon dating.
Genomic profile of the sample seems to support that.
Distance to: Turkey_Marmara_Iznik_Y.kapi_PostMedieval.AG:I14844.AG__AD_1564__Cov_73.63%
0.01148163 Anatolia_Early_Modern_Nicaea_(Anatolian_BA_Profile)_(n=1)
0.02802037 Italy_Lazio_Roman_Empire-Late_Antiquity_Isola_Sacra_(East_Med-Anatolian_Profile)_(n=2)
0.02835496 Anatolia_EBA_Ovaoren_(n=3)
0.02846363 Anatolia_MLBA_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_(n=4)
0.02865403 Anatolia_EBA_Isparta_(n=3)
0.02868786 Anatolia_LCA_Camlibel_Tarlasi_(n=12)
0.02924620 Anatolia_EBA_Izmir_Yassitepe_(n=2)
@ Norfern
''The drift maximizes in the early 1st millenium BCE in Estonia and Latvia, no population prior to that has as much drift as they do. I seriously doubt the existence of a mysterious turbodrifted "Baltic HG" that has simply been left unsampled''
What I was saying is that although hunter-gatherer ancestry persisted well in the the third millenium, it is unlikely to have persisted into the LBA (exceptions - Fenoscandia, etc). So I think the CW + Narva-rich admixture occurred earlier than the LBA, but the population remained low, and then grew more rapidly.
Elephants' ancestors were the size of dogs. They grew, however. If we want to understand the origins of the Balto-Slavic drift, we obviously need samples not with the strongest Balto-Slavic drift, but with the earliest Balto-Slavic drift. And such samples come from the Balkans. I listed them in the Kisapostag thread on genarchivist. And it doesn't matter that their Balto-Slavic drift is weak. Odnako za vremya puti sobaka mogla podrasti. Subsequently, when they moved north and mixed with hunters, the drift intensified. Unfounded claims that PCA distortion is present in the case of Balkan samples with Balto-Slavic drift don't convince me. Yeah, it's only for certain samples that everything is distorted.
I don't have a favorite theory, and I'll accept any answer as long as it's confirmed. If we look at the West Eurasia PCA, we see that there's little difference between Slavs and Germanics in terms of hunter-gatherer admixture. Slavs are only slightly more hunter-gatherer than Germanics, and only slightly more WHG. This isn't enough to confidently distinguish them. Thus, the difference between Slavs and Germanics is related to differences in their southern admixture. Evidently, the southern admixture of Slavs originates from a Balkan source. Therefore, we can assume that Slavs are descended from something like Baltic_BA plus Balkan admixture. However, if we move to a dimension that shows the southern admixture of Slavs, we find that Baltic_BA no longer fits into the triangle between Corded Ware people, GAC farmers, and hunters. Baltic_BA is shifting in the same direction as the Slavs themselves, meaning it appears Baltic_BA shares the same southern admixture as the Slavs. Let's try to do something about this.
You can't really determine these things by looking at a static PCA, but need to use a diachronic approach. Early Balto-Slavs are CW + Narva-rich para -Neolithics from the Baltic region. Proto-Slavs and to some degree historic Balts have some additional southern admixture, perhaps from several sources.
Germanics developed in a completely different region, there's no need to discuss them
No, we need to discuss the Germanics to determine whether the ancient example of a Northern European complexion with a high level of hunters is Slavic or Germanic. We see in the PCA that Germanics and Slavs are distinct, so it makes no sense to say that the PCA is incapable of addressing such issues.
@dancingfragments
„Subsequently, when they moved north and mixed with hunters, the drift intensified.“
The critical flaw in your theory is that a genetic drift ostensibly of Balkan origin has been growing stronger in proportion to mixing with Northeast European hunter-gatherers — and proportionally stronger as the original Balkan admixture decreases. That's just wishful thinking dressed up in fancy terminology.
@dancingfragments
„If we want to understand the origins of the Balto-Slavic drift, we obviously need samples not with the strongest Balto-Slavic drift, but with the earliest Balto-Slavic drift. And such samples come from the Balkans.“
You're weaponizing the scarcity of ancient samples as a last line of defense for a theory that otherwise doesn't make any sense. The Estonia_BA samples are just the ones we're lucky enough to have — they aren't necessarily the oldest. Can you guarantee that the original population with the strongest genetic drift wasn't living in the Leningrad region for centuries before migrating into Estonia? That's a rhetorical question.
@dancingfragments
„Evidently, the southern admixture of Slavs originates from a Balkan source.“
Re-Neolithization is a Europe-wide trend from the Bronze Age to the present. Pretty much everywhere from Norway to Greece and from Portugal to Finland, you can observe EEF admixture increasing from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, from the Iron Age to the Middle Ages, and from the Middle Ages to today. Your Balkan theory is something a five-year-old could come up with, but beyond that, the reabsorption of local Neolithic holdouts (for the BA-to-IA genetic transition) as well as slow, gradual genetic drift over many generations are also on the table — and all three of those explanations can be true simultaneously.
@dancingfragments
„If we look at the West Eurasia PCA, we see that there's little difference between Slavs and Germanics in terms of hunter-gatherer admixture. Slavs are only slightly more hunter-gatherer than Germanics, and only slightly more WHG.“
Your admixture analysis of Slavs and Germanic peoples is useless (I loathe the word „Germanics“ — that's not an actual word in English; the correct form is either „Germanic peoples“ or, more archaically, „Teutons“). No one can even agree on which samples should be used as a Proto-Germanic reference. Some would argue for using Norway_IA samples because they're the most genetically northern-shifted and, according to certain interpretations, the most „authentic“, while I would argue for investing into the search of pre-Roman samples from coastal Northeastern Germany due to the lack of BAC admixture that I suspect the more northern groups have in abundance. Same story with the Slavs — the post-Chernyakhov groups simply aren't the same people as the pre-Chernyakhov ones, and the million-dollar question is whether the linguistic developments that split Proto-Slavic from Proto-Balto-Slavic occurred during the Chernyakhov events. This question has no answer today.
@dancingfragments
„Thus, the difference between Slavs and Germanics is related to differences in their southern admixture.“
No, the difference between Slavs and Germanic peoples comes down to the fact that they are distinct peoples who emerged in geographically separate areas and have different ancestral lineages. The bulk of Germanic ancestry can be traced back to the Single Grave culture and neighboring Bronze Age groups, whereas the bulk of Slavic ancestry can be traced to Northeastern European Corded Ware communities. The fact that we can easily distinguish them on a PCA is just a fortunate coincidence — owing to the fact that the Eigenstrat method managed to identify and dimensionally amplify a specific genetic drift that originated in Late Bronze Age Northeastern Europe and remains detectable in all populations partially descended from that source.
There are two obvious reasons why Slavs and Germanics are distinct from each other genetically:
1) genetic drift accumulated during the Slavic and Germanic expansions
2) admixture from exotic (non-Slavic and non-Germanic) sources.
That means that you don't need any significant Balkan admixture in Slavs if 1 is strong enough, and/or if 2 doesn't come from the Balkans.
In fact, all you really need is some Slavic-specific drift and local admixture from within Eastern Europe.
In the West Eurasia PCA and other similar PCAs, the Germanic and Slavic clouds overlap significantly, and the Balto-Slavic drift does not help distinguish between them. Differences between Germanic and Slavic emerge in the dimensions where the various EEF-rich sources diverge.
Radiosource, Yes, according to my theory, the Balto-Slavic drift should have intensified as Balkan farmers interbred with EHG-biased hunters. I'm not a geneticist, and I don't even know if this is possible. This is purely speculative on my part. But simply rejecting this theory is not enough for me. Please offer an alternative, provide a reasonable explanation for why Baltic_BA shifts in the same direction as the EEF-rich source, as we see in Gretzinger's plot, which shows the ancient Balto-Balkan cline and the modern Balto-Balkan cline, and on this ancient Balto-Balkan cline fall a dozen and a half new samples from Akbari et al. 2026. Therefore, I don't understand what deficit of ancient samples you are talking about. There is no deficit. We already have several dozen samples from the Balkans with Balto-Slavic drift, dating to the Neolithic and Early Bronze Age. One of them is marked on the map from Gerber's work as the oldest relative of Baltic_BA. How can the scarcity of hunting samples from the Leningrad region refute this?
I'll reiterate: in the West Eurasia PCA and other similar PCAs, the Germanic and Slavic clouds overlap, and the Balto-Slavic drift doesn't help distinguish the differences. For the Slavic samples, I used the Gretzinger, Olalde, Krakauer_Berg, and Pohansko samples. As far as I understand, no one doubts that these are Slavs. For the Germanic samples, I used Friesland_Saxon, Schleswig_Saxon, England_Saxon, Wielbark_Kowalewko, Wielbark_Maslomecz, VK2020_NOR_North_VA, and other similar samples without outliers. Can there really be any doubt that these are Germanic? Probably not. Germanics and Slavs are clearly distinguishable in the same type of PCA that shows differences between EEF-rich sources. Just look at Gretzinger's PCA. It's not simply a matter of Reneolithization. Germanics and Slavs clearly have different southern admixtures, and this is difficult to explain otherwise. In any case, if you have another explanation, I'd be glad to hear it. The issue here isn't Balto-Slavic drift, since it's not clearly visible here.
Radiosource, I'm not sure I explained everything clearly in the previous answer, so I'll add an additional one. Unfortunately, you're speaking abstractly where a concrete answer is required. We have a PCA of the type demonstrated by Gretzinger. Here, Germanics and Slavs are very clearly distinguished. Clearly and simply. There's nothing magical about it. We need to understand why. It's not about the differences between the Single Grave culture and Northeastern European Corded Ware communities, since samples from both types would be in the same section of Gretzinger's plot as Germanics. Both. And it's not about Balto-Slavic drift, because Gretzinger's plot doesn't visualize Balto-Slavic drift in its pure form, and the Balto-Slavic section of the plot will also contain samples without Balto-Slavic drift, for example, the Iron Age in Bulgaria. This is the specific fact we need to explain.
The earliest sample with significant Baltic drift to my knowledge is EKA1 from Corded Ware Culture in Estonian.
Target: Estonia_CordedWare.SG:EKA1.SG__BC_2245__Cov_86.69%
Distance: 3.6903% / 0.03690279
49.2 Latvia_BA
20.0 Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya
16.4 Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
14.4 Latvia_MN_Comb_Ware.SG
@ Dancing Fragments
The difference between Slavs, Germanics and Balts is multifaced and spans 3000 years. It cannot be reduced to one mystical EEF-rich source
@dancingfragments
The differences between Balts, Germanics and Slavs are basically due to the fact that the Baltic, Germanic and Slavic homelands were in different parts of Europe.
But the fact that Balts, Germanics and Slavs share so much ancestry with each other, and their linguistic families are so closely related tells us that they all come from the same, relatively recent source.
The obvious thing that they share is ancestry from the Corded Ware people. So, the Corded Ware culture is the obvious source of Baltic, Germanic and Slavic.
If proto-Slavs did have some sort of Balkan-related farmer ancestry, then this is only of minor interest, because this obviously can't be the source of Balto-Slavic languages.
@Davidski
I wouldn't be so subtle. For me, given our history, there is no boundary between my identity and that of a Slav, a Baltic, or a Germanic. The differences are negligible, whether in physical, cultural, or linguistic traits. Putin has some Finnish-Asiatic traits, but they don't differentiate him from me. Even an Anatolian Turk wouldn't feel different from me, except for language and religion, which I don't share, but his is a mortal danger to me. In this world of great turmoil, I think we, as broad and differentiated Indo-Europeans, must seek the necessary unity. The Ashkenazi Jews, given what I think of them, even at a genetic level, don't feel different from me, except for their identity, which is found in the Bible, and their history of revenge over the last 2,000 years.
@dancingfragments
Northern Slavs and Germanics cluster together in a West Eurasian PCA, and Balto-Slavic drift doesn't show up in a West Eurasian PCA, because the PCA is based on ancient West Eurasian-level genetic differentiation.
So, in order for Europeans to be separated in a West Eurasian PCA, they need to actually show different ratios of ancient West Eurasian components, like EEF, EHG and WHG. And Northern Slavs and Germanics have basically the same levels of these West Eurasian components.
The differences between Northern Slavs and Germanics start to show in European-specific and Northern European-specific PCA precisely because of more recent, ethnic-related genetic differentiation, like Balto-Slavic drift.
Genetic drift is not admixture; it's a random process that takes place in populations that are relatively isolated genetically from their neighbors.
Balto-Slavic drift is too recent and not strong enough to have an effect on a West Eurasian-level PCA, but it has the power to affect European-level and Northern European-level PCA plots.
Rob, The hunting sources of the ancestors of the Germans and Slavs differed greatly, but due to subsequent admixture, the differences smoothed out and now the Germans and Slavs have a similar ratio of EHG and WHG, and if we take this criterion, then the clouds of the Germans and Slavs on the plot will overlap.
According to Gerber's map, the oldest sample showing similarity to Baltic_BA is the Balkan farmer I1108 from MalakPreslavets. This sample dates back to the 6th millennium BC. Sample EKA1 appears suspicious. It is possible that this sample is contaminated or misdated. I would not use it until the situation is clarified. I personally judge the Balto-Slavic drift by observing PCA. In one of the PCA dimensions, the Balto-Slavic drift is very clearly reflected. Judging by the PCA, the oldest example with Balto-Slavic drift is the Balkan hunter I5410, discussed above. But here I'm not entirely convinced.
@ Davidski, Yes, the source of the Balto-Slavic languages is clearly the Corded Ware people. Perhaps the Mierzanowice culture? Some Mierzanowice samples appear to have the same Balkan admixture as the Balto-Slavs, for example, poz530.
I don't think this sample has Baltic drift.
Target: Bulgaria_MalakPreslavets_N_oLowEEF.AG:I1108.AG__BC_5600__Cov_24.34%
Distance: 2.8332% / 0.02833245
63.0 Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
32.6 Estonia_EMN_Narva
4.4 Ukraine_N
0.0 Latvia_BA
Malak Preslavets are fascinating set of samples, but have no bearing to Balto-Slavic. They are dead -end group.
For David W :
Are you still working on a new calculator that will be like an improvement of the G25 ?
In the mountains of Dagestan, during construction work, road workers came across a 5,000-year-old burial site with the elongated heads of infants.
https://x.com/TselmesBi/status/2050129452915470423?s=20
interesting map
https://x.com/war4k2/status/2050179681639338014
@truth
Yes, but I don't get paid to come up with new stuff. So when I have some time I'll get it done.
@Davidski
I suggest you to make a fundraising post on this blog.
Never despair. It's always possible to find the oldest R-U152* samples in Italy:
Blöcher, J., Vallini, L., Velte, M. et al. Demography and life histories across the Roman frontier in Germany 400–700 CE. Nature (2026). doi.org/10.1038/s41586-026-10437-3
For comparative purposes, we supplemented the dataset with newly generated and published genomes from the fourth to eighth centuries in present-day Southern and Eastern Germany, Austria, Italy
and Hungary14–21. To explore genomic variability in earlier periods, we additionally sequenced 20 genomes from nearby Late Antique sites (Azlburg, Kemathen and Pförring) and 16 genomes from key sites
across Europe and beyond (Viminacium, Serbia; Argamum, Danube Delta; Doliche, Anatolia; and Spina, Italy) (Fig. 1, Supplementary Information 1 and Supplementary Table 1), yielding a total of 258 newly
generated genomes with a median depth of 2.25×. For Altheim, an additional 114 strontium isotope ratios were measured to further investigate patterns of individual mobility and migration (Supplementary
Information 2).
SPINA1 JL3_2_6 75580751 73587249 2,63758 48589595 44725754 7,95 66,03 11,81 1231627 0,1617 0,1145 0,0706 0,1786 0,1163 0,0725 XY diploid diploid diploid 1,0000 0,9993 1,0000 58006 133113215 126824576 55147 496323 0,002491 0,006124 0,009513 0,000402405 0,008702 1,11252E-12 H5 R1b1a1b1a1a2b R-PF6570*(xL409,L671,PF6601,S259,CTS7193.2,L1358) 12815627 63199 0,975 1 1 0,975 0,00136538 0,00000497 0,00101815
SPINA2 SL80_4_13 206756142 181530390 12,2007 83621680 80103322 4,21 46,06 10,41 1231343 0,0254 0,0042 0,0030 0,0310 0,0043 0,0028 XY diploid diploid diploid 0,9985 0,9950 0,9997 58006 132203516 124893838 53662 482958 0,002318 0,005369 0,008452 0,00041668 0,006898 1,05223E-12 H75 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1c1c1 R-FGC22952/etc 12366296 62923 0,96 1 1 0,96 0,00135727 0,00000500 0,00101212
https://x.com/bendich/status/2050299678642610308/photo/1
some persons of the USSR 😅
@ Shomu
''https://x.com/bendich/status/2050299678642610308/photo/1'
Where's Dagestan bro ? Bastards forgot
@Mr Shomu tepe
This is the real image:
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/OGkjzO3moe
No need to turn everything into AI-generated slop.
If you want to assess average pigmentation, here are some composite images made by some enthusiasts:
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2p7pkQy/af.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/dwxbfGNg/mf.jpg
It feels like they're the same person.
@ Radiosource
From the form of the face I'd say that Lithuanians are the closest to the WHGs, probably because they survived in those places more than in others, and also the right eye more closed than the left that I attributed to a partial penetration of the Mongolian fold is probably so old that it already belonged to the WHGs. And perhaps it isn't by chance that the Lithuanian language seems to be the closest to the reconstructed PIE.
Wow, Elon Musk is quoting David Reich. This is good publicity for genetic genealogy if this tech billionaire is posting tweets featuring the leading scientists in this field.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2050861447048311182?s=20
Some more samples I scoured from Sikora 2025
https://www.mediafire.com/file/qt1m75rry2ptd3z/Sikora_2025_2.zip/file
@Mr Shomu
Ancient DNA doesn't need any more publicity. It needs the scientists who are working in this field to be capable, objective and honest, and to focus on truth rather than on their own pet theories or political narratives.
And be careful what you wish for when someone like Musk or Trump says that the ancient world was violent.
That's because what they really mean is that the world is a naturally violent place and people like you or me shouldn't complain when things turn extremely violent for us. Like, you know, with that war in Iran and stuff.
@Norfern
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nGLxMtkQmHA5W92RA9lPiOIwYAkTjKyB/view?usp=sharing
I mean, tweets and reposts like these will, in any case, popularize archaeogenetics among more people.
This means additional interest > additional financial investments > more research scientists in the field > increased progress.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2051184971252220365?s=20
@ Mr Shomu tepe
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/2051184971252220365?s=20
Thus we have to think that the people of Yamnaya were above all my ancestors R1b-L23-Z2103 who spoke the IE language in the "centum" form. They expanded everywhere, both men and females. When they conquered the Bell Beakers, who were above all R1a and R1b-L23-L51, the Yamnaya females married BB men and transmitted the IE language and only among the R1a people the "centum" language was transformed in the "satem" one and after they expanded to central Asia and later to the Indo-Iranians...
I agree with Dave, genetics doesnt need more popularisation, 90% of the people posting on X don’t know much about genetics. Just parrot posting Reichs interviews. He’s done great work on developing methodologies, but their synthesis is pretty mediocre, followed by midwits.
Trumps turned out to be disappointing, but of course it’s not him, it’s the Judeo-American corporation
An EHG girl tried to steal a sheep from CIHG herders, this is what happened next:
https://x.com/TansuYegen/status/2051050507758698937?s=20
@Davidski
Clearly, not all ancient components differ in the West Eurasia PCA. We see that Anatolian and Levantine farmers are close together. Could you check how the West Eurasia PCA would change if we moved to a component where Anatolian and Levantine farmers differ?
Musk has a short attention span for things outside his own spheres of operations, if you ask him two weeks later what Yamnaya is he'll say it's a Russian pharmaceutical company
Trump is a buisness man , he have no clue about war and he also have no clue about the middle east like most of you in europe and america , we are going to have a very black future, maybe only poland will have more quiet until they will again need to save europe like it was with the mongol empire .anyway it will take time , maybe not in our time line .until then i am only wishing we will continue to get to the truth with ancestry and genetics before everything will be more crazy ..
Discussing current knowledge of the Seima-Turbino phenomenon with Olga Nikolaevna Korochkova, Doctor of Historical Sciences, Professor at the Department of Archaeology and Ethnology of Ural Federal University. (Lecture in Russian)
https://youtu.be/-7qaTzB8Bc8
New mtDNA samples from modern ethnic Poles that I recruited for GenBank, both posted last month:
accession number PZ293850
haplogroup H5bg5 = H5-G709A-G8251A-T9530C-C16111A
Polish from Kulaszne, Gmina Komańcza, Poland
accession number PZ220844
haplogroup V7a10 = V7a-G15894A
Polish from Małachowo-Wierzbiczany, Gmina Witkowo, Poland
Sample I18810 clearly shows Balto-Slavic drift, and distances indicate that this individual is related to MalakPreslavets.
Target: Akbari2026:I18810.AG.TW
Distance: 2.8735% / 0.02873542
47.8 Iberia_BA
37.6 Baltic_BA
7.4 Sardinia_BA
5.2 Levant_BA_e
1.4 ROU_BA
0.6 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP
Distance to: Akbari2026:I18810.AG.TW
0.02803476 Romania_BA_1.AG:I10494.AG__BC_2964__Cov_62.21%
0.03882725 Bulgaria_MalakPreslavets_N_oLowEEF_1d.rel.I1108.AG:I0700.AG__BC_5600__Cov_32.32%
0.04098000 Bulgaria_MalakPreslavets_N_oLowEEF.AG:I1108.AG__BC_5600__Cov_24.34%
0.04226590 Romania_PietreleMaguraGorgana_Gumelnita_C.AG:PIE06061.AG__BC_4666__Cov_70.27%
0.04232305 Bulgaria_MalakPreslavets_N.AG:I1113.AG__BC_5600__Cov_21.36%
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-026-02462-z
Congratulations Dave, big steps!
Thanks! It was nice to finally make a minor formal contribution to the ancient DNA revolution.
I've got another paper on the way, but it's a biology paper, so I probably won't be sharing news about it here. Although I'm sure eventually someone following this blog will find it.
I'd really like to publish a paper on the Indo-European homeland, even in some crap journal. But the paper's gotta be top toch.
@dancingrfragments
The sample is from the E region of Akbari data, most likely from Romania like I10494. It also dates to the roughly same time period so I wouldn't be surprised if it's more so connected to that individual than Malak-Preslavets directly.
@ Radiosource
''Musk has a short attention span for things outside his own spheres of operations, if you ask him two weeks later what Yamnaya is he'll say it's a Russian pharmaceutical company''
hilarious.
I kinda like him but he's a chameleon, acting as if he's with 'the regular folk', 'our guy'
@Rob
I disagree with you this time. I know there's bad blood in the Balkans, but it's one thing to be 90% of the population and then become the 10% and see the former 10% claim power. The issue isn't relevant to Kosovo; it's relevant to us globally. From this essay (unfortunately not downloadable, but I have the supplements and tables), I would expect clarification on R-Z2705, which has a 1,500-year-old MRCA, while there are 3,000-year-old examples in Italy. And clearly, as I've written before, having "Illyrian" ancestry doesn't mean claiming anything, because we all have "Illyrian" ancestry between Yamnaya and Italy. Furthermore, the Albanian language has an IE background that's interesting to study. A Balkan origin is within the realm of possibility. My Latin ancestors also came from there, after Yamnaya, and you know that I stand with Russia and its nuclear arsenal.
@Rob
"I don’t really understand your comment as it’s kind of meandering from topic to topic"
I am a poet above all, and poetry frequently speaks for allusions, metaphors etc etc, but be sure that what I say does mean. Someone could agree with me or not, of course. We are free, but you know that Davidski is kind with me, but he didn't publish so far all what I wrote, above all about political arguments, and I finish here my answer. I'll read the paper carefully, above all the Supplements that I got. I add only that it seemed to me that they examined all except Italy, and the answer is clear to me.
I remember to you all that the subclade R-Z2705 was examined more than 15 Years ago by Argiedude and me. He called that the "Albanian cluster", I the "Balkan cluster", and it seems to me that it is "Balkan" and not only "Albanian", and the MRCA is either1500 Years ago fo YFull and perhaps 1800 for FTDNA, anyway in the times of the "Roman Balkans".
Of course each Y and mt should be examined for their probable origin. I may say that mt U5b3 was certainly born in Italy, and we have 2 U5b3i believed linked to Spain Punic (Zalloua et al. 2018) but clearly it has nothing to do with Phoenicians as we know very well now.
There is also 1 mt K1c1f3, classified as "Albania, Southern Europe", which is the haplogroup of my wife from Sicily and of my Children that I exstimed of Norman or anyway German origin.
@Norfern-Ostrobothnian
Yes, that's right, I18810 most likely originates from Romania and belongs to the Carpatho-Balkan sphere. This individual is not a hunter from northeastern Europe. The sample dates back to the sixth millennium BC. It is unlikely that there was a migration of hunters from northeastern Europe to Romania during this period. The hunting admixture in I18810 comes from local Balkan and Carpathian hunters. And there are many similar samples. Another similar sample is, for example, I7142.
Target: Akbari2026:I7142.SG
Distance: 2.4866% / 0.02486641
38.6 Iberia_BA
26.0 Baltic_BA
21.0 ROU_BA
9.6 BGR_EBA
4.8 Levant_BA_e
@dancingfragments
If a Neolithic or Copper Age sample shows ~25% Baltic_BA ancestry in an anachronistic test, this doesn't mean that this sample actually has Balto-Slavic drift.
Rather, it suggests that this individual is, at some level, related to the formation of Balto-Slavic drift.
So there might not be a direct relationship between I18810 and early Balto-Slavs. I'd say the relationship is indirect, via hunter-gatherer ancestry that originated probably just east of Poland and then spread across Eastern Europe and into the northern Balkans at different times.
@ Gio
''I disagree with you this time'
Feel free to do so, but I don't think you know what you're disagreeing with in your meandering 'poetry' nor with your confused old man allusions to Kosovo vis-a-viz "Jewish world control'.
This 'study' began with a mission - to prove the Albanian - Illyrian connection and the "J2b-Yamnayan-Cetina' fantasies of the dropkicks at FraudArchivist.
They then cherry picked some data, including bringing in inacurate 'data' from somebodys personal genelaogy project (suffering from sample & participation bias), then presented some dubious re-hash of already printed data, stacking the analysis with west Balkan data and low-coverage from elshewere.
No original aDNA, nor any decent quality discussion of linguistics (Despite hauling in a 'linguist' from USA), not much history or archaeology, such as mention of the large population shifts toward Epirus/Albania c. 500-600AD. Frankly, I doubt any of the authors have mcuh of a clue about any of these, we've seen above that the lead author - Alex Heraclides - doesn't even seem to know much about his own region of Greece, has a hyper-indigenist personal fetish (whilst decrying anything from mainland Europe, including the nasty Balkans), and has a track record of being pretty much wrong about everything (notably his vocal claims about Y-hg C1a being Turkish).
At least they had a drop of honesty to admit their study doesn't actually prove Albanian derives fom Illyrian and at least they spelled out that Albanians are a relatively late ethnogenesis 900 AD. But the study is still Bent because of the skewed analysis and hyperindigenist focus (this time west Balkan instead of the usual fixation on the Aegean), whilst ignoring the massive impact from central-northern Balkans (the E-V13 presence of 35-75%), or indeed even Slavic admixture (which is as high as 35% but the study tries to present as almost zero). Yes they 'proved' that Albanians are paleo-Balkan, but we already knew that.
@Gioiello
You're obsessed with Jews. You remind me of my crazy uncle in that regard.
@Davidski
"@Gioiello
You're obsessed with Jews. You remind me of my crazy uncle in that regard".
I am an historian above all and what I have been saying for all my life is under your eyes: all the revolutions and wars to come to Ukraine (Nuland > Kolomiskij > Zelenskij), 8 october like Pearl Harbour, Gaza and the Great Israel, all written in the Bible at least 2500 Years ago, and all, included Trump, in the Epstein/Mossad island. Is it enough for you?
Since I’m not an expert on the Balkans, can someone explain to me why Albanians are so obsessed with proving their connection to the Illyrians? Their male genetic markers aren’t particularly Illyrian; they seem to be a mix of Illyrian, Slavic, Eastern Balkan (Thracia-Bulgaria), Anatolian (Turkey), and Levantine influences. I suppose it’s all a political issue, isn’t it?. Does it have anything to do with their claims regarding Kosovo?
@Gioiello
Zelensky will kick Putin's ass.
@Davidski
"@Gioiello
Zelensky will kick Putin's ass".
Ahahahahahahah. I don't forget, like you, that we are Indo-Europeans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMWcV2NkvEg
El ADN de Freddie Mercury Revela que Era de una Etnia que Casi Nadie Conoce
literally already
LOL, as if it was something new and previously unknown that Freddie Mercury was from a Parsic family.
@ Gaska
Your observations ar Albanians are mixed group of people who formed recently. In fact all European nations are post-Medieval formations, although everyone has 'deep Bronze Age' roots, even Finns.
As for the narratives, it's a basic topos - autochthonism vs migrationism, invoked since ancient times, it depends on the psyche of the individuals or groups. For some, such as the R1b-P312 'genealogists' from USA / GeneArchiver, they want to believe R1b as exotic and foreign to Europe as possible, so they create for their mind fanciful tales about R1b-M269 in Yamnaya arriving directly from Siberia and they started domming Europe. It probably adds some excitement to their mundane lives. Non-Europeans love these theories too, because it soothes their jealousies.
For others, such as Greeks & Albanians, it is all about creating continuity narratives and generous definitions of 'Hellenistic', "Illyrian', or ''continuity''. Durign the Hoxha era, there was systemic 'Illyrianization' of the language & names in Albania. It's just identity construction during difficult times, but rather than distancing themselves from pseudo-theories and discussing their histropgraphy, like most European countries, the 'scientists' from GA who wrote the paper doubled down. It's clear that they are biased firstly, and secondly don;t have the intellectual depth to do so. There must be something in the water that these -ogluz (Lazaroglu, Davranoglu, Pelopoglu) that makes creating honest narratives difficult :)
However, its not as if Albanians are monolithic, as Ive noticed that some favour the E-V13 theory, but they were all banned from GA. Which just speaks what kind of a 'forum; AimSmall & Co. are running - a queer fascism cult of low-wits.
Back in 2022 I said that the invasion of Ukraine was the Soviet Union's dead cat bounce.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/03/lousy-intel.html
Total collapse incoming. Not long now.
It is not even about the USSR. Many people do not understand that russia does not want to bring back the Soviet Union. russia literally wants to restore its imperial past — the time when it was an empire, with putin now at the head of it as the supreme tsar.
This is a project that was approved long ago. They themselves let the USSR collapse so that, in the future, they could gather the territories back together again, because no empire can exist without its “center,” which right now is the so-called Kievan Rus — that is, Ukraine.
The thing is that after the collapse of the USSR, a lot changed in Ukraine. It became much more pro-Western, and without Ukraine’s territory, the “Russian Empire” project is doomed to fail. I have even heard that some people in the Kremlin’s upper circles were allegedly negotiating with certain politicians in Europe, with agreements in place to carry out this project.
But the United States ruined all of the Kremlin’s imperial plans.
Davidski, I think you can add that to your list of failed predictions 🤣
@Mr Shomu
But the United States ruined all of the Kremlin’s imperial plans.
Ukraine ruined those plans.
The United States expected Ukraine to fall within days, and then, when that didn't happen, it tried to manage Ukraine's defense into a stalemate so as not to upset Russia too much.
Ukraine could've defeated Russia years ago if it got enough help and wasn't held back by the US from striking targets in Russia.
Now the US isn't helping Ukraine at all (in fact, Trump obviously wants an alliance with Russia), but Ukraine no longer cares about that. It's now strong enough to take down Russia by itself.
Honestly, I do not know why Ukraine was not allowed to win back then, why it was not given weapons then. Probably because at that time the people of Ukraine were not as anti-russian as they became after russia occupied Crimea and parts of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Probably in America they thought it was not the right time yet, and besides, the kremlin-russian agent network in the highest levels of power in Ukraine was much larger then than it is now (although even now, they say, there are still some kremlin influence agents there).
In the world today, everything depends on people, on their approval, on the approval of public opinion. The whole world was meant to understand that Ukraine is defending itself against an aggressor.
Ukraine is given exactly as much weapons as it needs for its defense; no one will ever let it lose. At the same time, no one will ever allow Ukraine to defeat russia very quickly, because the risk of nuclear escalation is too great.
Simply put, russia is being slowly, slowly destroyed. I think these are psychological and political games in which the usa, the uk, Ukraine, and the kremlin all play the main roles, so everything is fine, David, do not worry.
As for the claim that the usa is not helping Ukraine — yes, that is true, but even without that help Ukraine is managing quite well. Why should the usa be the one helping Ukraine when Ukraine’s neighboring countries together have a combined GDP larger than that of the usa? This is all part of trump’s strategic game. He wants Europeans to stop depending on the American military industry. On the surface, it looks as if the Americans abandoned Ukraine and the Europeans one-on-one against fascist russia, but if you look deeper and see what consequences this brings, you can understand that he did it so Europeans would begin helping Ukraine themselves.
Because nato is not only about the usa — it also includes Europeans, Japanese, and many other countries.
But this was not done only for that reason. These are also agreements between the united states and the kremlin, so that the kremlin would not supply weapons to Iran, Cuba, or Venezuela, while in exchange the usa would not help Ukraine with weapons.
A system of checks and contradictions.
Ukraine wasn't given the help it needed because the US was scared that Russia might use nuclear weapons if it was faced with defeat.
The US held Ukraine back from defeating Russia and this was a mistake, because the war would've been over years ago and fewer Ukrainians and Russians would be dead.
Now Russia faces an economic and probably political collapse. And no one knows how that will unravel.
@ Simon W
"LOL, as if it was something new and previously unknown that Freddie Mercury was from a Parsic family".
Ahah, a stupid comes back. I didnt know that. I don't follow these news, but I look at Fred Mercury with more sympathy now, and it is important that he was hg. R1a. You should look at the post of an Iranian in fb who says that all did come from Iran (R1b, R1a and all the rest; IE Language etc). I look at Iranians with less sympathy now. I am not in favour of Jews for the reasons I said many times, but they have the power to make empty squares up there... No sympathy for yankees like you. All the Others, except Rob, don't understand anything in politics, and to Mr Shomu (in Italian "scemo") I want to say that about Anatolian Turks he should ask himself not how long they are in Anatolia but how long they will be in the future.
Davidski, Yes, that's right, we're likely seeing the formation of a Balto-Slavic drift, which was initially weak but gradually intensified. This is the ancient Balto-Balkan Gretzinger Cline.
@All
What are the oldest instances of R1a and R1b considering that recent data dump by the David Reich Lab?
@Rob
"Davidski, I think you can add that to your list of failed predictions 🤣"
The war in Ukraine looks like a stalemate to me. It looks like it can drag on for 5-10 years more. I think the losses are not very high on either side, and most people overestimate the body count for both parties of this war. On top of that, the latest trends indicate that field soldiers on both sides will be increasingly replaced by unmanned aerial and ground vehicles which will cause casualties to plummet further.
@Radiosource
Something like 80-96% of the casualties on the Russian side are due to Ukrainian drones, so the casualties are filmed as they happen and can be counted very accurately. Many of these videos are publicly available.
Russia is losing about 35,000 soldiers each month. This is an accurate estimate and it's a massive number that Russia cannot sustain.
Also, it's not true that unmanned systems are replacing soldiers on the Russian side. Russia's drone industry is not comparable to Ukraine's in terms of scale or innovation.
This is not a stalemate anymore. When Russia collapses, and it will, things will unravel very quickly.
@ Radiosource
- I havent really been following the war recently, its been indeed dragging on far too long, but on this matter I find Davidski's appraisal somewhat delusional. But to connect the dots, it seems the War lobby is seeking to create chaos everywhere and control resources such as Oil, to the detriment of Foe and 'Allies" alike
@Rob
https://giphy.com/explore/sure-jan
@ Dave
Hopefully the war ends, and when the dust has settled, your forecasts will be appraised just as you assess publications
@Rob
Stop deleting your messages because my replies to you disappear too.
russia and Ukraine losses in a 1 to 8 ratio? where are you getting these numbers from, what the hell do retired us generals have to do with it?
youtube and twitter are full of videos and channels on this topic, with Ukrainian drones (footage from Ukrainian drones), how they methodically destroy russians one by one, and sometimes in groups. I have never seen such videos from the russian side. if I did, it was only in a single case, and any such case the russian side would try to spread as much as possible for propaganda purposes. every day they post these videos and compilations of strikes on russians.
a few more words about losses.
there is a twitter channel that periodically posts videos in which Ukrainian drones capture Russian soldiers committing suicide at the front: https://x.com/GloOouD
by its count there are about 500 such cases in total, and this is only one channel. and how many cases are there that were not caught on camera? fine, let us multiply that by 100 — in total that would be 50,000 cases of suicide alone (a very approximate, very rough estimate).
and again, I have not seen a single similar video from russian drones. literally not one.
and if we take into account that statistically deaths from suicide during the active phase of war on average make up about <1–5% of total losses on one side, then this number can be multiplied by another 20–100, which means that in any case the minimum number of losses on the russian side is within the range of 1,000,000.
@ Davidski
Hopefully the war does end soon. When the dust settles, we will be able to assess who is more objectively correct.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L703/tree
FTDNA made some changes to their I-L703 tree. They they moved the Khvalynsk sample further downstream, too.
@ Shomu
CBF discussing this atm.
I know exactly what western elites think and why the war is unfolding, because I am part of that society. No offence, but what’s a 20 something-year-old person who’s never left their town, with a victimhood complex, going to explain to me based on YouTube videos he’s seen?
@Rob First, you inadvertently mislead people with your incorrect, distorted data. And then you say you're too lazy to discuss it. A good tactic👍
Your DNA may predict your future success more than your upbringing
A new twin study suggests your genes may play a bigger role in your future success than your upbringing. Researchers found that IQ, which is largely genetically influenced, strongly predicts education, career, and income. Even twins raised in the same household diverged based on genetic differences. The findings hint that life outcomes may be more hardwired than many people expect
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2026/05/260505234624.htm
@Mr Shomu
Genetics and IQ are only strong predictors of life outcomes between people when all other variables (like family wealth or country of birth) are basically the same.
That is, someone can have a relatively low IQ and still have great life outcomes if they inherit a million dollars.
a new long interview with David Reich
https://x.com/dwarkesh_sp/status/2052798237828960334?s=20
The image below is a map of archaeological sites from Amirhanov’s new book on the Mesolithic/Neolithic of the Eastern Caucasus.
https://i.ibb.co/0RnHJjwH/3.jpg
Fig. 1.1a. Location of the Mesolithic and Neolithic monument groups of the Eastern Caucasus, the materials of which are examined in detail in the study. 1 – Gobustan sites; 2 – the Uytash site group; 3 – the Almalo site group; 4 – Danukh Neolithic settlements; Neolithic and Mesolithic settlements and sites of Central Dagestan (Chokh, etc.).
@ Ethan
''https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-L703/tree
FTDNA made some changes to their I-L703 tree. They they moved the Khvalynsk sample further downstream, too.''
Looks like Dnieper root, with 2 main sub-clades in relative star-bust explansion : I-PF6902 & I-S21579
Do we know more info on the Akbari samples ?
@Rob
You can hate the west, love russia — that's your right. i have somewhat different views on that. i won't be able to change your mind, and you won't change mine either, so let's stop arguing about it. and stop misleading people with all sorts of fake statements from fake generals. that's it, that's what i wanted to say.
Let us abandon these stupid controversies and remember our immortal fathers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX4yuMN6pPI&list=RDKX4yuMN6pPI&start_radio=1
@ Shomu- lol, no Im not trying to change your mind because you have anosognosia (DSM IV criteria). True patriots wish to preserve what is good rather than supporting a scam war which in the long run is is detrimental to Europe, it serves a perverse war cult which no longer represents the West and only tickles your own seething fantasies. No i don;t want to live in Russia, thank you, I live that to you
@Rob
Don't worry, the so-called scam war will end no later than next year when Russia runs out of front-line meat and its economy implodes.
@ Davidski
That was the plan, collapse the Russian economy with sanctions and theft of their funds, then send in the Ukraine army to finish them off.
So where is that at the moment after four years, 20 rounds of sanctions and billions of dollars of loans from the EU taxpayers?
The EU is ballsdeep, a loss would be catastrophic, they’d be left with the Bill. Well not your girl Kaja Kalllas or Zelenski, but regular Europeans from Britain to Greece
The only thing that has actually happened is Ukraine is being ground down with the loss ratio of 8 to 1. Despite the captured political leadership and propaganda disinformation, most Europeans wouldnt want to fight in a larger war. Even if you’re right about the cause of the war– which you’re not because you’re Dumb, it’s simply not worth ending Europe for this.
@Davidski
Among elite chess players, those with the lowest IQ are the best.
Among NBA players, the shortest ones are the best.
Among Hollywood actors, the least attractive are the most talented.
Among elite academics, those with poorer early academic performance are the best.
Among people with high LDL & high plaque burden, LDL is barely correlated with plaque burden.
https://x.com/MariosGeorgakis/status/2053017502662246409
@Rob
The plan was a Russian parade in Kyiv.
That was Putin's plan. And it was a very stupid plan.
2022, Putin: "a gang of drug addicts and neo-Nazis"
2026, Putin: "Mr. Zelensky"
https://x.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/2053457555272184247?s=20
Sean Strickland looks like a typical "Yamnaya" reconstruction.
https://x.com/SpinninBackfist/status/2053494570097442922
Merab Dvalishvili (Georgian: მერაბ დვალიშვილი) is a UFC champion. He was born in the city of Vani in Imereti, Georgia, but his roots are from the village of Sulori, 10 km away.
He belongs to the R-FGC56408 branch of the R1a-Z93 haplogroup.
https://t.me/caucasdna/10011?single
I thought that these types of accounts migrated from X to Bluesky
@Davidski
Let's see if now, after Putin's proposal, Europe understands what it hasn't wanted to understand until now: that is, stop serving the Jews and the Yankees. So I repeat what I've been saying all my life: raze Israel and England to the ground and deal a mortal blow to the United States. Then the Afro-Islamic hell, and only Russia has the nuclear arsenal to do it. I know Russia doesn't think so, because it has an imperial project and, as Rob says, the Muslims are rooted there and not the ferocious newcomers like in Western Europe, but this, in my opinion, is the mortal mistake the Russians could make. We haven't assimilated the Jews (or supposed Jews) in 2,000 years; it's crazy to think we can negotiate with the Muslims, who are 100 times more dangerous than the Jews. Anyway, too bad for the Russians if they don't understand this. Russia will be dissolved from within by Arsen's grandchildren, or rather Arsenius. European Jews will have to be genetically tested: those with less than 30% original Jewish genetics can be treated.
I tell Davidski that a single hypersonic missile with 19 nuclear warheads can raze France. I don't think Poland is bigger.
In Russian, the word "plan" has a second meaning, referring to marijuana. There's an old joke: Putin's plan comes from a valley where cannabis grows.
Thanx for the link to the Reich interview Shomu tepe!
David makes an intriguing point that with 3 billion bases in the human genome and 9 billion people with average 20 de-novo mutations, that every possible allele is available in the current gene pool 60 times. And that most of the mutations (variation) that is available to humans was in our genepool hundreds of thousands of years ago. Does that leave in/dels and transversions as the possible drivers of modernity? Or is it just a mater of getting the right combination of mutations in the breeding group.
@Gioiello
Botox grandpa won't use nuclear weapons because there's no guarantee that Russia still has working nuclear weapons after decades of massive corruption.
Apart from that, China won't let Putin turn his three-day special operation in Ukraine into a nuclear war.
@ Radiosource
''I thought that these types of accounts migrated from X to Bluesky''
The NAFO-tards & Fellas pretty much disappeared after the NGO-funding for their Bot accounts dried up. As one can see, their 'memes' are extremely low-IQ & cringe, little wonder they resonate for Shomu-Arsen
@Guy
You’re welcome)
@Gioiello
Dear Gioiello, why does the world need a country that will seize neighboring territories, turning its own into a garbage dump, that will teach its neighbors how to live, what language to speak, and if someone dares to disobey it, it will use these, as you put it, "hypersonic missiles with 19 nuclear warheads." What moral right does it have to tell other countries what to do, threaten the entire world, dictate its terms?
@Davidski & @Shomu tepe
I'm surprised you published my letter. Sometimes I write letters for you to read, precisely because I know you don't publish certain letters, as you did with the latest ones. In these letters, I express everything I think, which is usually left unsaid. Okay, then. That's what I think. In my opinion, China is not an enemy, as it seems to be for the United States and the Zionists. You know I'm right-wing, and so I've never had any sympathy for communism, but only because I consider it "unreal" and "unachievable," as history has shown. But I live like a "communist," with little, and I love "culture": books, music, and everything else. That's why I've never been against Russia, and not just because my Y comes from there. I see Russians as descendants of Indo-Europeans, and I'm not a purist who would rule out Finno-Ugric or even Altaic influences. Much less Caucasian, if we are indeed defined as being of the "Caucasian race."
Hundreds of languages and dialects are spoken in Russia. I bought books from the USSR, "Novyi knigi." I didn't buy those in Caucasian languages, because they are impossible for us. Perhaps only Georgian could be approached, even though it seems like a musical language and not based on "pitches," but in terms of structure it seems more similar to ours. I have no objection to any language in the world, precisely because I was educated on Alfredo. Trombetti.
I think the problem is Islam, which is ultimately a continuation of the Bible and Zionism. We are "Greek" in our thinking, and we want to be free to think what we like, perhaps later realizing we were wrong and admitting it.
In this sense, I prefer Confucian China to peoples who are religiously stupid. Look at what the Chinese do with the Uyghurs, and you'll understand that I have faith in Russia and China too.
Russia is no more of a dump than any post-Soviet region, probably increasingly less so. Shomu posting random images of a literal garbage dump nothiwithstanding. He's the type of will complain anywhere he goes because he is an ingrate. If he lived in the West, i'd imagine historionic TikTok videos about how girls are racist & fascist for rejecting him
@ Gio
“ Russia will be dissolved from within by Arsen's grandchildren, or rather Arsenius. “
Lol maybe, but then again, Arsen is so retarded that he’s probably sterile
@ Rob
"sterile" would be the least. The true question is to reach the hole!
The Russian strategy is to destroy the economies of the nations that it subjugates and then spread propaganda against these nations, claiming that they're poor because they're stupid.
Of course, when these nations are finally able to break away from Russia, their standard of living rises dramatically. Poland and the Baltic states are prime examples, but so was Ukraine until the Botox bunker midget invaded Ukraine.
Now the Botox bunker midget is threating to invade Armenia because, like Ukraine, it wants to get closer to the European Union and raise its standard of living beyond Russia's shithole standards.
https://x.com/AnnaDeMilanese/status/2053524789298377195
@ Davidski - right, except in reality Armenia lost territory to Azerbaijan, half its politicians paid to 'stand off'', so that Azerbaijan can in turn offer its territory for the US-Israeli invasion of Iran - which you were just complaining about -because your 1993-Mazda is now more expensive to run.
There's actually a clip at that link of Putin saying that he invaded Ukraine because it wanted to join the EU, and that Armenia was making the same mistake.
https://x.com/AnnaDeMilanese/status/2053524789298377195
The Oldest Traces of Alcoholic Beverages in the Border Zone of the North and East European Plains
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/arcm.70024
COMPARISON: RUSSIA vs SINGAPORE
AREA
Russia: 17,098,250 km²
Singapore: 728 km²
Russia is larger by ~23,490 times
POPULATION
Russia: ~146,135,000
Singapore: ~6,037,000
Russia is larger by ~24 times
NATURAL RESOURCES (total estimated value)
Russia: ~$75–100 trillion
Singapore: ~$0
Russia is richer by an incomparable margin
GDP (nominal, 2024)
Russia: ~$2.17 trillion
Singapore: ~$0.547 trillion
Russia is larger by ~4 times
GDP PER CAPITA (nominal, 2024)
Russia: ~$15,145
Singapore: ~$90,674
Singapore is higher by ~6 times
I have a question for everyone: why is this? Are the damned Zionists to blame for everything? The damned West? They're not letting Russia develop?
Why the hell does this cancerous tumor dare tell its neighbors how to live? Why the hell should anyone else take this gas station's opinion into account? What benefit does Russia provide to the world, other than controlling these resources, selling them to the West and Asia, and then using that money to create nuclear weapons with 19 warheads ready to wipe out anyone who disagrees with it?
With the same money from the sold resources, it buys politicians, officials, political parties, and sometimes entire countries, so they'll turn a blind eye to everything the Russian intelligence services are doing in that Europe?
Why the hell hasn't Russia been recognized as a state sponsor of terrorism?
@Shomu tepe
"I have a question for everyone: why is this? Are the damned Zionists to blame for everything? The damned West? They're not letting Russia develop?
Why the hell does this cancerous tumor dare tell its neighbors how to live? Why the hell should anyone else take this gas station's opinion into account? What benefit does Russia provide to the world, other than controlling these resources, selling them to the West and Asia, and then using that money to create nuclear weapons with 19 warheads ready to wipe out anyone who disagrees with it?
With the same money from the sold resources, it buys politicians, officials, political parties, and sometimes entire countries, so they'll turn a blind eye to everything the Russian intelligence services are doing in that Europe?
Why the hell hasn't Russia been recognized as a state sponsor of terrorism?"
As far as I know, the Russians do not finance Islamic terrorists or the penetration of Islamists into Europe like the Gulf Monarchies and the Muslim Brotherhood, so the Russians, being European and Indo-European in language and culture, build their nuclear weapons to wipe the scum off the face of the earth.
Russia's problem isn't just that it seized foreign territory. The problem is that Russia was founded on the oppression of its own people. English writers like Collins, Stevenson, and Conan Doyle wrote stories about treasure hunts stolen in India by ordinary English officers. Such things are impossible in Russia. Ordinary Russian soldiers gave their lives for nothing in return. All the wealth went to their superiors. If Russia is an empire, it's an empire in reverse. Over the past year, a whole alley of those killed in the fighting has appeared in our cemetery. And we're just a small provincial town.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Russia 52,479
Estonia 51,653
Romania 50,783
Hungary 50,570
Slovakia 49,466
Greece 47,175
Latvia 45,840
Bulgaria 45,642
Rob, would you say Shomu's Dagestan and other ethnic areas elevate or downgrade Russia's per capita stats?
@Radiosource
The GDP per capita for Russia you posted is made up because it tries to take into account Russia's supposed large informal economy.
Basically, no one really know anything when it comes to Russia, but outside of Moscow and St Petersburg the country looks like the third world.
@Radiosource
good thing you mentioned that, because this cancerous tumor, among other things, keeps all ethnic regions in poverty — i mean not only dagestan, but basically any ethnic region at all (the caucasus, siberia, the far east, the urals, and so on) out of which all of russia is woven. yakutia, with trillions in diamond reserves and everything else. just look at what it looks like. look at how the khanty and mansi live in the khanty-mansi autonomous okrug — they still live in yurts to this day, and there are no dividends from the oil that is extracted from their land.
when a region is poor, when it has no development prospects, it is easier to control the local clans and elites, to give them a few scraps from the common table, so that those elites can then feed the local population lies. that is called russia’s vertical of power, when lower-level officials are allowed to steal by higher-level officials, and that is how the whole system is held together.
Salaries in Russia by region (Per month )
Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug — $1,981/month
Nenets Autonomous Okrug — $1,874/month
Magadan Oblast — $2,050/month
Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug – Yugra — $1,557/month
Chukotka Autonomous Okrug — $2,183/month
Sakha Republic (Yakutia) — $1,611/month
Amur Oblast — $1,316/month
Sakhalin Oblast — $1,508/month
Irkutsk Oblast — $1,125/month
Murmansk Oblast — $1,346/month
Republic of Tatarstan — $991/month
Komi Republic — $1,197/month
Leningrad Oblast — $1,102/month
Moscow Oblast — $1,228/month
Kemerovo Oblast — $953/month
Khabarovsk Krai — $1,232/month
Zabaykalsky Krai — $1,057/month
Krasnoyarsk Krai — $1,053/month
Kamchatka Krai — $1,537/month
Tomsk Oblast — $947/month
Republic of Buryatia — $931/month
Kaluga Oblast — $918/month
Chelyabinsk Oblast — $815/month
Republic of Karelia — $962/month
Kursk Oblast — $833/month
Sverdlovsk Oblast — $877/month
Belgorod Oblast — $782/month
Orenburg Oblast — $791/month
Primorsky Krai — $1,041/month
Jewish Autonomous Oblast — $1,044/month
Tyumen Oblast — $930/month
Astrakhan Oblast — $774/month
Lipetsk Oblast — $767/month
Novosibirsk Oblast — $868/month
Nizhny Novgorod Oblast — $831/month
Tula Oblast — $817/month
Republic of Khakassia — $857/month
Samara Oblast — $782/month
Republic of Adygea — $741/month
Arkhangelsk Oblast — $918/month
Republic of Bashkortostan — $754/month
Udmurt Republic — $744/month
Tver Oblast — $740/month
Yaroslavl Oblast — $749/month
Perm Krai — $776/month
Novgorod Oblast — $705/month
Voronezh Oblast — $748/month
Penza Oblast — $672/month
Vladimir Oblast — $779/month
Kaliningrad Oblast — $805/month
Mari El Republic — $676/month
Republic of Mordovia — $652/month
Smolensk Oblast — $724/month
Chuvash Republic — $649/month
Volgograd Oblast — $657/month
Oryol Oblast — $656/month
Krasnodar Krai — $768/month
Ryazan Oblast — $699/month
Rostov Oblast — $732/month
Tuva Republic — $687/month
Saratov Oblast — $646/month
Kostroma Oblast — $667/month
Vologda Oblast — $759/month
Kurgan Oblast — $649/month
Tambov Oblast — $653/month
Ulyanovsk Oblast — $654/month
Bryansk Oblast — $671/month
Stavropol Krai — $694/month
Omsk Oblast — $608/month
Altai Republic — $723/month
Kirov Oblast — $633/month
Pskov Oblast — $646/month
Altai Krai — $643/month
Republic of North Ossetia–Alania — $547/month
Republic of Crimea — $604/month
Ivanovo Oblast — $581/month
Republic of Kalmykia — $543/month
Karachay-Cherkess Republic — $550/month
Kabardino-Balkar Republic — $505/month
Republic of Dagestan — $470/month
Republic of Ingushetia — $443/month
Chechen Republic — $404/month
As I said, the national republics were unlucky, with regions with gas and oil reserves at the top. As I wrote above, the indigenous population lives there, who still live in tents and yurts.
😂
Estonia — about $2,113/month
Romania — about $1,722/month
Hungary — about $1,832/month
Slovakia — about $1,647/month
Greece — about $2,302/month
Latvia — about $1,816/month
Bulgaria — about $1,180/month
Russia — about $960/month
Recent papers argued that the domestication of horses can be equated with the appearance of favorable genetic mutations that are first evident in individuals in the DOM2 clade dated about ∼2200–2100 BCE. We challenge the idea that this genetic shift alone defines domestication. Evidence from archaeology, ancient DNA, osteology, and other disciplines shows that horses from multiple genetic backgrounds (DOM1, DOM2, and, as we suggest here, DOM3) were managed, milked, and ridden long before 2200 BCE. Yamnaya groups (∼3200–2600 BCE) rode DOM2 horses—the direct ancestors of modern domestic stock—while incorporating them into diets, rituals, and mobility systems. Selection for traits linked to endurance and temperament began centuries earlier. Rather than a sudden breakthrough, domestication was a protracted, regionally varied process whose transformative effects on human mobility and social organization began as early as the fourth, if not the fifth millennium BCE, and set the stage for later DOM2 dominance
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ady7336
@Rob
You have a such a loud mouth you have no idea what you're talking about. E-V13 is around 28-32% (also giving 70% just tells you are out of your mind) which is indeed not Illyrian as you said, J2b-l283 is essentially Illyrian is around 20% in Ghegs, R1b-Z2103 is a generic haplogroup found in Ancient Albania but if we assume it comes from a native Illyrian source it adds another 17%, a deep extinct clade of R1b of Ancient Greece and Ancient Albania is around 3% (exclusively) found in Albanians with high diversity.
In ftDna you'll find some extinct J2a Cetina subclades with 2 Albanians don't form an actual "percentage".
Also one I2a has been found in Daunians, some deep subclade of I2a of Akbari study has a West Balkan profile is almost entirely Albanian in ftDna, I am not gonna make anything of this until the location and the date is revealed but it is modest a 2%, anyways.
So it is mixed bag but it is there.
Albanians are not 35% Northern Slavic, you can download the Moriopolous dataset and use Shtitke samples in G25 as a proxy, you see around 10%-15% Northern Slavic which matches Slavic Y-Dna of I2a and R1a and mtDna at around 12%. The overall percentage of Slavic ancestry is of course higher since this ancestry came entirely with a South Slavic source.
Serbians in comparison have 60% I2a and R1a, with the Bosnians and Croatians going higher, mirroring their North Balto-Slavic ancestry.
Target: Serb_Serbia_Belgrade_(n=23)
Distance: 1.2186% / 0.01218620
51.6 Slovak_(n=6)
48.4 Albanian_Gheg_(n=24)
@ Donny
Kosovo Albanians have upward of 50% E-V13 (Pericic et al).
Although variable, Slavic-Y-DNA might be as high as 25%. Im not going to quibble about overall autosomal ancestry because it is not important for me, it is your cohort (or perhaps their handlers from G.A) who wish to present some sort of minimal, 'female mediated'' input, just like the Greeks like to pretend.
Yes, 20% "Illyrian J2b2'' in Albanians is reasonable, c/f the rather dubious wording presented in the study. But even this doesn't translate into 'Illyrian continuity', but I suspect that the nuances of ethnic transformation during the Roman, Late Antique and Medieval epochs is something beyond your scope
@ Radiosource
''Rob, would you say Shomu's Dagestan and other ethnic areas elevate or downgrade Russia's per capita stats?''
I havent looked into that, but your post is interesting whilst Shomu's 'Salary in dollars/ per person' is skewed because it doesn't not take cost of living into account. People in Greece get paid in lower Euros but pay the same amount for basic goods as those in Germany. Have they been advantaged ? They cant even 'float' their currency to absorb shocks.
But for me this is irrelevant, because I am not arguing that 'Russia is better' economically, morally or socially, of course I supprt Ukraine's wish to be independent & sovereign. However, I am analysing the cause of conflict as one would a Bronze Age event - as matter of fact. The EU has no natural resources. All that is has achieved is instead of buying cheap Russian oil, it will buy Russian oil via USA at 4x the cost.
Anglophone westerners doesn't care about the region. Sure, for 2 months in 2022, the social media followers put up flag filters in support of Ukraine, but any person with half a brain who has looked into it more closely thinks Z. is a fraud. They have other issues to worry about - such as a mass-migration, housing (un)affordabilty, a hostile government which disalllows expression of National pride. This is not Russia's fault.
Within Europe, it is mostly Baltics & Poles who are anti-Russian because they wish to be seen as 'west European' and blame Russia for all their woes. The funny thing is - it is not the stari djedi who actually lived under the Soviet times who are complaining, it is mostly younger generations who never did. Maybe in 1990 joining the EU was an advantage, but Im not sure what benefit it would serve now. But Im not an economist..
Also Danish/Dutch feminists & UK boomers, the former seem to be venting their sexual frustration whilst the letter blanketly think EE's are inferior (with Russian as the most extreme representation of Asianoid Bolsheviks) whilst they themselves have the phenotype of a Hobbit.
@ Dancing Fragments - Russian "Liberal' twinks are interesting. There are apparently a few similar to you in Bulgaria, Serbia, etc
That's why the has 'leaders' like Starmer, Macron, Trudeau - they have no legacy or dynasty to defend.
@Rob
I can assure you that hating on Russia is an all-ages phenomenon in Poland that transcends generational barriers.
No one likes Russia or believes that it's a victim of western chauvinism, except a few confused hard-core commies and people of Russian descent.
Well over 90% of Poles today would like to see a giant fence and deadly mine fields separating Poland from Russia for the next few decades at least.
@Mr Shomu tepe
So it's the Russians who dismantled all those Dagestani AI startups, Dagestani solar panels, Dagestani semiconductor industry, Dagestani construction conglomerates, Dagestani banking and finances?
I have no idea what hole you crawled out of or what country you're from — because besides the USA, China, and a couple of other countries, nobody has startups in the fields you listed. Yet all other countries, including Singapore itself, get along perfectly fine without your startups. Bastard.
https://x.com/j__o__k__/status/2054788560562028938
@ Donny
"R1b-Z2103 is a generic haplogroup found in Ancient Albania"
R-L23-Z2103 is my haplogroup, certainly from Yamnaya (even though I think that R1b1 descended from Villabruna 14000 Years and perhaps 17000 for the link at the autosomic level with I-M223 of Tagliente 2) and of course passed through the Balkans and thy were the Latins/Romans, and the so called "Yllirians" for the autosome, but in Albanians it is above all downstream R-Z2705, whose MRCA lived 1500 Years ago and samples of 3000 Years ago are in Italy and not in the Balkans (I was the discover of the "Balkan cluster" not "Albanian cluster"). If you add that the Albanian language is formed for 40% of Latin, 20% of Greek, 10% of Slavic and so on and not more than 10% from IE you have the explanation of your origins, and don't believe to Turks, they will be your end.
You focused on the AI example and missed the whole point. What kind of high added value products and services does Dagestan generate that the Russians are stripping your wealth from?
These political discussions always end up being entertaining. Russia? China? The United States? They all have something in common: their presidents are narcissistic psychopaths, they all hate Europe, and they all want to destroy us. If the European Union keeps going down this path, we’re all screwed.
The Western left has a plan to replace the native population with immigrants from the Third World, here in Spain the government wants to legalize 2.5 million undocumented immigrants, most of them from our former American colonies (as well as Pakistanis, Moroccans, etc.), and in a few years they’ll make up the majority of the population, so my advice to the Eastern European countries that have joined or want to join the European Union is not to let themselves be infected by this “woke” virus. Has anyone taken a trip lately to Paris, Marseille, Barcelona, Brussels, Rome, Madrid, or London? The Poles and Hungarians may be poorer, but at least they remain European.
@ Gaska
You're half right, half wrong
China, Russia, USA don;t' hate Europe - they just think the EU is becoming increeasingly irrelevant, which is the sad reality,. Sure there are figures like Dugin, but the's fringe. Americans just look down on 'Europoors' and have evolved their own interests.
And that's nobody's fault apart from the EU political chichhuahas like Kallas, von der Liar, etc, and those who support them. They sold out Europe for a small slice of pie, police free speech and interfere in elections. They are the new Soviets.
Why is Arsen, Davidski’s pet monkey, even talking here. Especially given that he actually resents Europeans, but weasels around whenever it suits him
Davidski’s Help shouldn’ t be talking. Shhh
@Radiosource
Your posts are very immature. It's as if they're written by a 12-year-old.
It should be obvious to any objective observer that, most other things being equal, countries that fall under Russia's control stagnate economically. Not much has changed in this regard since the time of the USSR.
Corruption and lack of investment are the main problems and it's not a controversial topic. Russian style oligarchy is simply not a very effective system for developing a market economy.
All you have to do is compare the Baltic states to Belarus, or even Ukraine under Zelensky to Ukraine under Yanukovych to see the difference.
Countries don't want to join Russia, or even be aligned with Russia, if they can help it. And they will align themselves with the West or fight to stop this from happening. That's the reason for the war in Ukraine.
@Rob
You're blaming the EU for things that have nothing to do with the EU.
Each country in Western Europe is responsible for its own problems.
@Rob
Idiot , what does Davidski have to do with this at all? This is my own opinion.
Where did I write that I hate Europeans? Why would I hate them, what have they done to me? Stop putting all kinds of nonsense in my mouth, like you usually like to do.
I just start getting triggered when some commenters here start defending Russia’s actions and trying to justify them in some way.
If Russia brought something useful or good to this world, showed some kind of economic success, respected human rights, and its laws actually worked, with no corruption, then there would at least be something to argue about.
@Davidski
Baltic States, Belarus, Ukraine can count on investments and even direct financial injections from the European Union because all of them are White Christian Europeans. This is a very different situation from Dagestan.
The EU's doctrine seems to be that non-Europeans are welcome to immigrate, but their countries of origin cannot become members themselves.
I'd say my maturity is in seeing that 85% of the world is a shithole, and the West Asia/broader MENA region (which Dagestan and the entire Transcaucasus region are parts of) is one of the bigger shitholes, with the only exceptions being oil-producing states run on slave labor.
Lukashenko is reportedly economically illiterate, so instead of the economic perks that come with the EU membership, Belarusians get to be mismanaged from the top down. Lukashenko may have lost the 2020 election, but it appears that he crushed the opposition without requesting the Russian troops to move in. Russia appears to be a passive factor that enables the dysfunctional loop that Belarus found itself to be stuck in.
Future will show if the path chosen by the Baltic States was worth it in the long run, or if the economic perks that came with being members of the EU family were a poisoned chalice. I'm openly opposed to both the non-white immigration as well as the LGBT movement, so for me the current state of the West is unacceptable for two unrelated reasons. The Baltic States are getting politically and socially warmed up to developing their LGBT movements due to political and cultural winds blowing in their direction from Western Europe and North America, and it may be a matter of time until the same winds turn Tallinn, Riga and Vilnius into the same multiracial paradises as the big cities of Western Europe and North America. Lukashenko is by no means pro-white, but his country may avoid the fate of becoming a multiracial paradise through a combination of blissful ignorance and not being run by „economic advisors“ actively advocating for naturalization of non-white workforce to cope with the demographic decline. The Baltic States as they stand today are significantly more LGBT-friendly than Belarus, and it works as a proof of concept that their EU membership brings not only economic perks, but also facilitates the spread of woke culture.
EU still has far more robust anti-corruption institutions than Russia, this has to be conceded.
@Radiosource
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of majority non-white, non-Christian areas of Western Europe that receive lots of funding from the EU.
So there's no reason to assume that if a non-white, non-Christian country joined the EU it would not be treated in the same way as the Baltic states.
Yet again, your arguments are from a parallel universe.
Meanwhile, no one wants to join Russia. They all want to get away from it. That's why Armenia is running to the EU as fast as possible.
As expected, Russia, after its recent failures on the military front, has once again turned to nuclear rhetoric and blackmail, and now it is proudly boasting about it, saying that Western countries have supposedly “been scared” of Russia’s new Sarmat ballistic missile, and that now they will have to take the opinion of the Russian fascist cesspool into account.
I quote: “There has been a lot of noise in the Western press after the successful test of the Sarmat missile system, which shows that the West understands its significance,” Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told journalists.
“Some say that they are acknowledging reality, that the Russians have really managed to guarantee their security in this way for many years to come, which is true,” the Kremlin representative noted.
Others, he said, are trying to “downplay the missile’s technical characteristics.” In any case, the lively reaction shows that the world understands the significance of the missile system launch.”
Read more here: https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/news/2026/05/14/1197314-peskov-pusk-sarmata?from=copy_text
@Rob
Here are some facts for you about the Ukraine war from Marco Rubio. Ukraine has the most powerful army in Europe, and Russia is losing five times as many soldiers as Ukraine. Unless you think he's lying.
https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/2055014969599492200
@Davidski
Well, what is he wrong about? He is absolutely right. Ukraine is the only country in Europe that will defend its land. Everyone says that Germany is the strongest country, the strongest economy in Europe. But I remember there was a poll among the population of Germany asking whether they would be ready to defend Germany in the event of military aggression from another country.
Forsa for RTL/ntv, March 6, 2025: 17% said they would “definitely” be ready to defend Germany with weapons; 19% said “probably”; and 60% said “probably not” or “definitely not.”
And this is the most economically powerful country in Europe. I hope everyone now understands that, in fact, Ukraine is the defender and shield of all Europe.
@ Davidski
'You're blaming the EU for things that have nothing to do with the EU.
Each country in Western Europe is responsible for its own problems.''
No, there's a centrally mandated quoted system enforced by the Feminazis. Countries not complying get penalised.
''Here are some facts for you about the Ukraine war from Marco Rubio. Ukraine has the most powerful army in Europe, and Russia is losing five times as many soldiers as Ukraine. Unless you think he's lying.
https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/2055014969599492200''
Yes, Ukraine has the largest army in Europe, which is why it is such a Loss for the EU'crats and their US handlers. And if Ukraine cant win, what chance does belgium or the Netherlands have ?
Ukraine has lost 15 million people (incl emigration), with field death ratios of 5 - 8 : 1.
That is why recruiters have to kidnap the men who remain, and soon they will be replaced by Migrants. But at least the people are starting to fight back.
You've lost the Plot.
@Rob
If Germany were in Ukraine’s place, then, judging by the poll I mentioned above, there would be far more military draft officers catching people on the streets than people actually willing to fight against Russia.
@Rob-Well, basically I agree with you that the bureaucrats in Brussels have sold out Europe, but people are tired of all this crap.
China has the perfect political system and a perfect plan to dominate the world economically and technologically while Americans struggle to survive in a rotten society. The Russians? Poor things—look at the spectacle they’re making of themselves in Ukraine. Do you really think they pose a threat to Europe? I understand that the Poles, Finns, Lithuanians etc are worried, but if the Russians haven’t been able to take Kyiv, can anyone in their right mind think they could make it all the way to Warsaw?
Most Russians are Europeans just like us; we need to sign a peace agreement that satisfies everyone, create a European army, dissolve NATO, and let the Americans keep making fools of themselves around the world while we solve our immigration issues.
Maybe the Chinese, Russians, and Americans are satisfied with their tyrants and continue to delude themselves into thinking they’re great superpowers but the truth is that all of them are light-years behind Europe. For example, you might consider life expectancy-Both sexes (2026)
Japan (85.15), Australia (84,34), Italy (84.18), Spain (84,08), Norway (83,76), Sweden (83,73), France (83,70), UK (81,75)
United States (79,76) China (79,02) & Russia (73,7)-Great superpowers? My ass, even in French Polynesia, people live 11 years longer than in St. Petersburg and six years longer than in Chicago or Beijing.
What really matters is living a happy life for as long as possible and letting each country or people find their own path. We are tired of violence and threats.
@Gaska
Russia is stuck in Ukraine because Ukraine has the most advanced and powerful army in Europe.
Poland is trying to catch up to Ukraine, but it's a race against time because Russia will attack the Baltic states and maybe also Poland soon.
The problem is that Russian's economy is now geared for war, so it can't go back to a civilian economy without a massive economic and social shock. For Putin it'll be easier to start another war than to make Russia a normal country.
@Davidski
If Russia attacks the Baltic States or Poland, it will be attacking all of Europe. I don’t think Putin has the guts, the resources, the troops, or the money to do it, and if he does, he’ll end up like Saddam Hussein, and we’ll end up like Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
By the way, I was in Krakow a month ago—it’s amazing how Poland is changing.
I think Putin is being criticsed interally for being too slow & weak, the talk is he is still hoping for some sort of dialogue, doesnt want to pull in EU/, NATO &/or USA.
I think the only reason Russia would attack actual EU conuntries is if they cross the line, and they have been testing the waters because theve been launching drones from EU space, were complicit in blowing up Nordstream, etc. If this happens, im not sure USA would comply with Article 5
This is a good dicussion: former CIA George Beebe & Glenn Diesen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS6TY75l2Pw
No one launched any drones into Russia from/via the EU.
Ukrainian drones now have the range to go as far as the Baltic and even the Urals.
That's why oil refineries near the Urals are burning regularly. These drones came from Ukraine.
Dowiedziałem się na tym blogu wiele o genetyce, natomiast gdy dyskutujecie o polityce to zaczyna być śmiesznie: nienawiść do Rosji w Polsce, tak jak nienawiść do Niemiec - nie istnieje! Istnieją realne interesy niemiecko- rosyjskie, popierane poprzez obecny rząd w Polsce, a które szkodzą Polsce.
Była umowa o współpracy PL-Rosja: 1/kulturalnej i gospodarczej; 2/ służb naszych z FSB - gdy byliśmy już w NATO! 3/była rozmowa Tuska z Putinem - bez osób postronnych.
Rosja graniczy z Polską - Królewiec! I Rosja nie zaatakuje NATO!
pzdr
ps. Polska, pod obecnymi rządami, sprowadzana jest do roli gospodarstwa pomocniczego dla Niemiec.
@ Gaska
"while we solve our immigration Issues" / "What really matters is living a happy life for as long as possible and letting each country or people find their own path. We are tired of violence and threats".
Do you know the "contradiction in terms"?
Machiavelli did know:
"Perché uno uomo, che voglia fare in tutte le parte professione di buono, conviene ruini infra tanti che non sono buoni"
"Because a man who wants to profess to be good in every way must come to ruin among so many who are not good."
Bad hunters are those who leave the wounded boar behind.
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