A new dataset has appeared online from a yet to be published paper titled
Cosmopolitanism in the depths of Barbaricum evidenced by archaeogenomic data from the Late Iron Age Goth community of the Masłomęcz group [Update: the paper is now available at this
Link].
Most of these Gothic samples are clearly of Scandinavian origin, and very similar to present-day Swedes. Overall, however, they create a somewhat heterogeneous cluster that also overlaps with present-day Poles thanks to the presence of a few Balto-Slavic-related and possibly Roman-related individuals.
The Principal Component Analysis (PCA) plots below were produced with the excellent
Vahaduo G25 Global Views tool using the data
here.
Their Y-haplogroups more or less reflect the PCA results:
PL046 R-YP6228
PL048 I-PH833
PL049 I-A11537
PL052 R-Y48961
PL059 I-PH833
PL062 I-S15301
PL065 I-Y294193
PL066 R-FGC2555
PL067 R-S7759
PL070 I-CTS10028
PL071 I-BY316
PL076 I-S9318
PL082 I-Z2041
PL085 J-Z38241
PL086 I-FT29339
See also...
Early Slavs from Tribal Period Poland
Wielbark Goths were overwhelmingly of Scandinavian origin
High-resolution stuff
1,170 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1001 – 1170 of 1170@quahadi
Gówno prawda
Nie zapraszam do dyskusji.
How could Ukrainian drones fall over Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia if not flying over them to attack Saint-Peterburg??
Do you expelled these puppet countries from EU and nato?
The drones were diverted off course by Russian jamming and flew from Russia into the Baltic states.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2026/03/27/ukrainian-drones-hit-all-three-baltic-states-did-russia-redirect-them/
I can see that, aside from Davidski, no one here seems to understand that russia currently has nothing left except nuclear blackmail:
It can't stop the war, because the entire economy is now running on it.
But it can't keep going either, since every day more oil refineries are being destroyed, and the people willing to fight on the front lines (cannon fodder) are being wiped out.
The only thing saving putin and russia right now is, in effect, nuclear rhetoric, threats, and blackmail — all these statements about how "sarmat" missiles will soon be in service with practically every battalion.
But this nuclear rhetoric and blackmail is once again working against fascist russia, because the rest of the world understands that they're dealing with a genuine terrorist who is holding hostages — Ukrainians, and really the entire world.
@Gaska
If Russia attacks one or all of the Baltic states, most likely there will be no real consequences for it.
Sure, there will be new sanctions, the usual outrage from European politicians, diplomatic protest notes — but it probably won't go any further than that.
So what's in store for the Baltic countries?
Patriots will be killed. They'll be labeled "neo-Nazis"; maximum propaganda will be deployed against them — both inside Russia and on Twitter by their agents, including useful idiots among Europeans and Americans.
There will be filtration of the population.
To hold onto these new "regions," Russians from various parts of the country will be resettled there, along with migrants from Central Asia.
For propaganda purposes, a couple of streets and buildings (destroyed during the military occupation) will be restored, some fancy high-rise will be built, and every street will be plastered with propaganda posters (featuring the letter Z in Latin script).
In short, the share of native Lithuanians, Estonians, etc. will shrink even further, since most people won't — and don't want to — fight (the value of human life matters more).
As heads of the new Russian federal subjects, they'll appoint some local Russians who have long dreamed of the return of the "Russian world" to these lands, or some Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian quislings.
And the standard of living and average wages will drop to the level of a typical Russian region — unfortunately, the Baltic states don't have nearly as many natural resources as, say, the Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Okrug 😁
Almazny Krai - Yakutia 💎
https://x.com/i/status/2055256716825034931
@ ShomuTepe
ROFl,. Davidski is a muppet when it comes to these matters. You sholdn't even be talking
@ quahadi
Zgadza się! „USA” porzucą Polskę, gdy tylko przestanie być strategicznie użyteczna. Polacy i Słowianie nie powinni ginąć za globalistyczną sektę wojenną z ich marionetką-karłem Zełenskim.
@ Gio
'B'ut in Albanians it is above all downstream R-Z2705, whose MRCA lived 1500 Years ago and samples of 3000 Years ago are in Italy and not in the Balkans (I was the discover of the "Balkan cluster" not "Albanian cluster").''
Indeed, this encapsulates a broader Balkan cluster with a recent TMRCA. I see some Sarmatian-Hun era links from Pannonia. Also 3 new Akbari samples tbd
@Mr Shomu
Come on, man, what you’re describing is a science fiction movie. There are 20,000 NATO troops in the Baltic region waiting for Putin, and listen to me—given the current state of the Russian military, that’s enough to launch a counterattack and occupy Belarus.
Ukraine has 40 million people; the European Union has 10 times more than Ukraine and three times more than Russia. The only concern is the nuclear threat—Putin will have to think twice.
I read a comment from a Polish person complaining that Poland has become Germany’s farm (whether the translator works). There are always fools everywhere; nobody’s perfect, but joining the EU is the best thing the Poles have ever done in their entire history.
@Gaska
The two most advanced armies in the world today are Ukrainian and Russian, simply because they've been fighting each other with drones for the past five years.
NATO armies are outdated, and most would be routed by a Russian army armed with drones.
Only Poland, Finland and the Baltic states have armies that are getting close to what's needed to compete with Russia, but they're not there yet.
So if Russia attacks the Baltic states, it'll most likely lose, but it won't be as easy as you imagine, and most of the work will be done by Poland and Finland. The rest of NATO is kind of shit and won't help much.
@Gaska
but ... 20,000 is a ridiculous number. Russia, without any problems or mass unrest, is destroying 20,000 or more of its own population, and has been doing this for almost five years. And we know that if even the U.S. Army were to lose just 100 people, what a tragedy that would turn into in America — riots and a coup d’état would start there, not to mention European countries, where the value of life is even higher than in the U.S. It seems to me that the Europeans will give up. Perhaps among all Europeans, aside from the Ukrainians, the Poles will resist, but besides them I do not know who else will.
@Gaska
https://x.com/NAFOvoyager/status/2055599525117534546
I tend to think like gaska that europeans should wake up from thier sleep and unite at least for thier children future and i understand rob opinion about the west but russia is even worse then the west , my wife family from north russia and i know many people from ukraine and russia to confirm that both places are shitholes also before the war, i think you should focus unite europeans with europeans and russia goverment far away from it.(they are a big mafia dictators that keep thier people poor ,stupid and isolated). That's why thier partners are china,iran and north koria , i am working with people from china and they are also will sell thier mother and souls to have more money because that's all they think about and care , iran massacre thier own citizens and north koria no need to say much..
The only good thing i can say with my wife family from north russia is that they are farmers and also fishing thier own food , they dont really need any goverment to live , so in the west attitude they are poor because they dont have money to travel around the world but they live as a free independent people , with this i am a little jealous (:
Rob is that you?
https://x.com/GaiJuliCaesar/status/2055753911600914521?s=20
Let's make a new separate post about politics. Or would that be too much?I think there will be enough people willing to speak out.
Nah, a political thread would encourage more pro-Russian trolls to come here.
Most of these trolls are Indians and Nigerians who get paid to post pro-Russian bullshit.
I can't wait till the Russian economy tanks completely. This will put an end to all the Russian troll farms.
Rob will be one of the few pro-Russian trolls doing it for free, for the love of the game.
People like Rob are usually called "useful idiots"
Yes, useful idiots have been a problem since the Soviet times.
These people are such morons that they don't understand that they'd be the first facing the firing squad after a Russian invasion.
@Rob
Zgadza się! „USA” porzucą Polskę, gdy tylko przestanie być strategicznie użyteczna. Polacy i Słowianie nie powinni ginąć za globalistyczną sektę wojenną z ich marionetką-karłem Zełenskim.
No one in Poland with a functioning brain is under any illusions that Trump's America is not trustworthy. Trump is pro-Russian and will sell out Poland to Putin without a second thought.
The fact that Poland and Ukraine want to defend themselves from Russian imperialism has nothing to do with America.
We just don't want Russia in our lives, which is a perfectly reasonable position. You have no valid arguments against this position.
GPT 5.5 is an effective autoresearcher in structural biology!
I've had goal mode running for over 150 hours straight, looking for topologically inspired architectural changes to improve the performance of AlphaFold2.
Performance is strong and improving!
https://x.com/ChrisHayduk/status/2055757345506877759?s=20
@ Davidski
Everything you say about the aversion to Russia naturally has a motivation, which I've summarized as "historical reasons." Fine. It's understandable, if we don't go back to Marx himself, who expected the communist revolution in a country with a strong working class, not in a backward, agricultural country like Russia. But Marx also excluded Russia for historical reasons, namely, its position between the Western world, which was moving toward industrialization, and the horde-based Asian despotism that Russia and part of Europe had known well. And don't forget that China itself had suffered an invasion. Now, I think a reasonable person should think more broadly. Russia, the Russian Federation, or what remains of the Tsarist Empire, is made up of both components, and it would be important to understand that the destructive component in the world today is represented not by the Mongol hordes but by Islam. Now, failing to see this in Poland leads to the absurdity of believing that its interest lies in standing with this Europe, which in reality is CIA/MI6 < MOSSAD, and believing it can save Poland from mass immigration and ultimately from Islamic penetration. And here the ambiguity of Israel and all Jews plays a key role: the ferocious destruction of the Palestinians and possibly Iran, but the "Abraham Pacts" with those who are truly financing the Islamic invasion, namely the Gulf monarchies.
You would need a broader ability to identify the true historical dynamics, and that is why I say that the only salvation for Europe, and therefore also for Poland, lies in Russia's nuclear arsenal.
@Mr Shomu
Obviously, I’m no fortune-teller, and I have no idea how each country in the European Union would react to a Russian attack in the Baltic region, Poland, Romania, Finland, or Spain (just yesterday, NATO warned us that a Russian missile would take 10 minutes to reach Madrid). For now, they don’t dare to attack, among other reasons because things aren’t going well in Ukraine, and I don’t think opening another front would be wise.
Our commitment is to defend our friends in Eastern Europe and we currently have planes and troops in Estonia, do you really think that if our people were killed in a Russian attack, Spain wouldn’t react? This is true for many other European countries as well . Obviously, the burden of defense is determined by geography—meaning that the Poles, Romanians, Finns, and others would have to fight first, but they wouldn’t be alone.
European identity is growing stronger because we see that we have enemies on all sides, and relations with the U.S.—especially after what they’re doing in Greenland, Iran and Ukraine—are getting worse and worse. The Germans are already tired of American tutelage and have realized the mistake regarding energy dependence on Russia, so everything indicates that we will have to fight alone against the whole world. So be it; the time has come to decide whether we want Europe to continue growing or whether we are going to allow ourselves to be destroyed.
We live in a museum, Spain receives 100 million tourists a year including thousands of wealthy Russians who spend their summers at luxury resorts in the Canary Islands and Marbella without a thought for his fellow countrymen who are dying in this shitty war. Perhaps the day will come when the Russian people grow tired of Putin and overthrow the tyrant.
''No one in Poland with a functioning brain is under any illusions that Trump's America is not trustworthy. Trump is pro-Russian and will sell out Poland to Putin without a second thought.''
There is no 'Trump's America', the same amorphous apparatus leads it that always has. Trump is the thuggish clown persona they currently need to shake things up around the World. That is what western critics don't understand - they say 'Trump is abaffoon, he doesn;t know what he;s doing'. But he's doing exactly what he needs to. Trump can say whatever he wants on Twitter/X and PressConferences, but in reality he listens to anoymous men in Black suits.
And this is nothing against everyday Americans, I am just outlining the Realpolitik. Any Westerner with an IQ> 110 knows this, some just remain quiet because 'better the Devil you know'. Why be an internal revolutionary to risk something even worse (China, Russia, Iranian dominance).
https://i.postimg.cc/yVFKpz5L/launchpads.jpg
Estonia is a strategic goldmine for a war against Russia.
You can threaten both Saint Petersburg and Moscow from there.
Honorable mentions to Finland and Latvia but they're more single-purpose compared to Estonia (Finland for Saint Petersburg, Latvia for Moscow).
Gaska many russians dont go to war because they know ukrainian people are not thier enemies, they already know what thier goverment is which is a mafia that dont care about them just like in west europe many start to understand their goverments also dont care about thier countries and still dont do much about it until they will not have other choice
https://x.com/BowesChay/status/2055915447363555352
But literally just before this, Russian drones killed children and civilians in Ukraine, destroyed several apartment buildings. Now let's imagine that instead of Ukraine it was the USA. How would the USA have responded? Or is Ukraine not allowed to take similar retaliatory actions, simply because it's not the USA? Is it not allowed to strike back, just because it's not as powerful, not as large as Russia?
That's roughly the logic of this useful idiot.
Although this could very well be a false flag operation meant to convince the population that the war is necessary (many people are already tired of this ‘special military operation’).
https://x.com/MrshomuTepe/status/2055933760051220615
@ Isz
''Gaska many russians dont go to war because they know ukrainian people are not thier enemies, they already know what thier goverment is which is a mafia that dont care about them just like in west europe many start to understand their goverments also dont care about thier countries and still dont do much about it until they will not have other choice''
It's all a conjob, but the you're all missing the fact that, in this instance. the CIA instigated a coup in Kiev to install a regimen which suppressed Russian identity in the east, with an ultimate aim to invading Russia. Moscow on the other hand had no designs on Paris, Brussels, London or even Warsaw. They have not much to offer anyway.
The pro-EU'toids don't seem to be able to admit this because they are just CIA puppets who have to tow the line.
'' iran massacre thier own citizens and north koria no need to say much..''
Only a dumb person would believe that the the Iranian regiman, as backward as it is, 'killed 30,000 of its citizens' as an excuse for USA & Israel to be greenlighted to actually kill thousands of people in the middle East.
@ Shomu
''useful idiot..useful idiot.''
Davidski's pet monkey has learned a new phrase.
“CIA staged a coup in Kyiv in order to suppress Russian identity...”
But damn it, even now people in Ukraine can speak Russian without any problem; nobody forbids them from speaking any language. There are plenty of Ukrainian media channels that write and speak in Russian.
And anyway, how can you even separate Russian from Ukrainian, when there are so many dialects between the two languages that gradually blend into one another and are found both in Ukraine and in Russia? On top of that, Russians have no problem developing their culture on their own territory; they have more than enough of it. Yet for some reason they went into Ukraine under the pretext of protecting Russian culture.
Everything you write, everything you say, is complete nonsense. They absolutely do not care about Russian culture or the Russian language. The only thing that mattered to them was imperial rhetoric, so they could take full control of Ukraine, its politicians, seize all the southern regions of Ukraine that gave it access to the Black Sea (all the way to Odesa), and possibly even take over all of Ukraine, then Belarus, the Baltic states, northern Kazakhstan, the South Caucasus, and turn them into Yakutia—maximizing the extraction of natural resources, profiting from those territories, and giving back as little of that benefit as possible to the occupied regions.
In short, the phrase “useful idiot” perfectly describes people like you🫵
Rob i am literally working with iranian woman in a factory , also a clinic i am going most of the crew iranian people with families there that only wish thier goverment to fall . I wish you could talk with them online to see reality and not thru youtube videos and other propoganda . Yes i wouldn't trust the intrests america is attacking them but they no doubt massacre any of thier citizens that dont want to be muslim , most of them see themselfs as persians not muslims , i bet you never knew in real life iranians that escape this country .
Also why i think our future is going to be really bad is that people are not objective anymore , there are one group that always afraid to be called racists so they let everybody from really bad countries to invade and there are people who also brainwashed like rob that russia and iran are the good guys that dont have intrests to expand and control because thier only experience with that is thru a computer .
Rob,
There's no difference between Russian patriots and Russian liberals. They all tend to think in terms of a besieged fortress and consider anyone who disagrees with them to be an enemy. Russian society lacks the concept of equal dignity for all people, and this is a common affliction for most Russians. The boss is always right. If the boss orders you executed, nine out of ten will comply, regardless of whether they're patriots or liberals. And you'll never guess who the one person who refuses to shoot you will be.
Macron and Starmer are not charismatic, but at least they don’t send anyone to the slaughter.
Terraced farming in Dagestan has its roots in the Neolithic
https://x.com/TselmesBi/status/2055988060131578205?s=20
@Rob
Are you a commie of some sort?
Only commies get a hard on for Putin like you do.
@ Isz
'Rob i am literally working with iranian woman in a factory , also a clinic i am going most of the crew iranian people with families there that only wish thier goverment to fall .''
That's true. I know lof of Iranians; nice educated bunch. They are all against their regimen. That is their 'diasporoid' view, entirely valid, but based on their own perceptions & greivances. One has to understand how the Khomeini regimen rose to power. And what occurred in the 1970s isn;t a mirror of what is happening today.
@ Dave
“Rob. Are you a commie of some sort?
Only commies get a hard on for Putin like you do.”
No I’m not a communist, if anything I used to be right Centre, but I’m now above all that,
I don’t prescribe to any singular ideology or platform, it doesn’t limits your armamentarium to analyse individual situations. Case in point -your current PTSD on the matter.
And I don’t think I’ve even mentioned Putin, whilst Putin and Zoolenski are all over your Lips. I think you need to slow down, otherwise you might make Arsen jealous.
Dancingfragments , because they brought enough 3 world people that will make it in thier own countries so why sending them ?😆
@Rob
You're a Vatnik.
Vatnik is a political pejorative used in Russia and other post-Soviet states for steadfast jingoistic followers of propaganda from the Russian government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik
@ Dave
You, who have dedicated the best of your scholarly work to the interpretation of the autosomal recessive, should extend everything you've learned in this regard to the understanding of politics, which requires being able to grasp the "totality" (as much as possible) of every implication. What does the term "communism" mean today? It's just a meaningless label, a vague and all-encompassing concept.
You have published, unlike other times, some of my political posts, but they ultimately concern the philosophy of politics.
In them I said a lot, obviously from my own point of view, and I know full well that every point of view is always necessarily partial. Why did we get to the war between Russia and Ukraine? Behind it lies the entire past history of these countries, but if you don't bring algorithms into play, you risk not understanding anything. I've given you one: Nuland > Kolomoisky > Zelensky. Then, at the base: Bible > diaspora > Greater Israel. And a thousand other algorithms should be taken into account.
I have exchanged hundreds, perhaps thousands, of letters with Isz, and the fact that he brings up his experience with Iranian refugees in Canada is merely a personal matter that cannot become an algorithm, because Iran as a "state" also has a long history, and its various religious beliefs are inevitably determined by it, for example, the genetic relationships spanning thousands of years between the Caucasus and the Zagros Mountains and the Levant. This is also interesting for your autosomal analyses, where there is never a single origin, as in mythical books, be they the Bible or the Koran, but rather an infinite series of variables.
@ Davidski
'Vatnik'. Why are zoolenski worshippers so cringe ?
Reality is, Ive never watched Russian media, whilst you & Arsen have in abundance. haha
@Rob
All these different news links you share here, or that you sent me personally by email, are, quite literally, mostly Russian propaganda, fake news, disinformation, and information warfare.
The thing is, Russia is very strong in information warfare and propaganda, but it still lags behind the U.S. and Western countries, which have reached a new, more sophisticated, but less aggressive form of propaganda.
So in a way, you’re also consuming and spreading Russian media just like we are — you simply do it through the lens of European media, which in this regard is more sophisticated and more cunning.
@ Dancing Fragments
''Macron and Starmer are not charismatic, but at least they don’t send anyone to the slaughter.''
Apart from millions of Ukrainians, and maybe soon other Europeans.
Well, Starmer might be out soon, but a similar square-glassed soyboy will take his place
@ Shomu
''All these different news links you share here, or that you sent me personally by email, are, quite literally, mostly Russian propaganda, fake news, disinformation, and information warfare. The thing is, Russia is very strong in information warfare and propaganda, but it still lags behind the U.S. and Western countries, which have reached a new, more sophisticated, but less aggressive form of propaganda.'
Nobody is email you anything. You cant even read or speak English.
You're telling us that Gorge Beeb, the example I posted above, who is "is director of grand strategy at the Quincy Institute. He spent more than two decades in government as an intelligence analyst, diplomat, and policy advisor, including as director of the CIA’s Russia analysis,'' is propaganda but the 'LatvianBallerinaFella' from Twitter you posted is reliable ?
This is in fact the definition of communism - a retard thinking he has equal currency to a genius. David is a Communist :)
Bronze Age Clay Wheels: Why Were Model Wagons Molded in the Caucasus?
During the Early Bronze Age (4th–3rd millennia BCE), the Kura-Araxes culture spanned the Caucasus, from Dagestan to Eastern Anatolia. Among its artifacts are discoveries that puzzle the untrained eye: ceramic wheel models. Small, crudely molded, with a hole for an axle. Why were they made?
Certainly not as toys. The archaeological context places these models alongside cult figurines and ritual hearth stands. In the Bronze Age, a wheel was not just a mechanical part. It was a symbol of the sun, movement, and the journey to the afterlife. In many Eurasian cultures, a model of a wagon or wheel placed in a burial signified the soul's journey to the next world. Later, in the Trialeti culture (late 3rd to mid-2nd millennia BCE), we find actual wooden wagons in the tombs of the elite. But it all started with these clay models.
Where were they found? In the Northeast Caucasus, they appear in the lower layer of the Serzhen-Yurt settlement in Chechnya (excavations by V.I. Markovin, 1963–1964). In the South Caucasus, they are found at Kura-Araxes sites across Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. Recently, a whole series of wheel models was discovered at the Zidyan-Kazmalyar settlement in Dagestan (pictured), alongside ceramic figurines, quern-stones, and flint sickle inserts. The context is identical everywhere: these are found in settlements rather than burials, and they are ritual objects rather than everyday household items.
This provides crucial insight into the worldview of the Kura-Araxes people. They were familiar with wheeled transport while simultaneously sacralizing its image. A technological innovation became interwoven with religion. The same phenomenon occurred in the Near East: 3rd-millennium BCE Sumerians placed clay and bronze models of chariots in temples and burials. The Caucasus kept pace—it was part of a shared world where the wheel turned not just on the road, but across the cosmos.
A simple little clay model, found in the hearth ash of a five-thousand-year-old settlement, yet it speaks volumes about an entire layer of ancient beliefs: about the sun, death, and the road to the heavens.
Pictured is a portion of the collection of clay wheel models unearthed at the Early Bronze Age settlement of Zidyan-Kazmalyar in Southern Dagestan.
https://t.me/AskerkhanProDagestan/1278?single
This cancerous tumor, sitting in a bunker, once again threatens to destroy the planet with nuclear weapons
https://x.com/JayinKyiv/status/2057461135293432307
But for Rob, he's a holy man, and Rob will be happy if he uses nuclear weapons, because in that case, the whole world will perish, and that means very Western politicians that this b@stard hates.
Rob just blames Starmer or Biden for all of Putin's crimes.
New preprint from @KevinKorfmann and @sarakmathieson Improves on work by @RegevSchweiger and @richard_durbin by parallelizing his already very fast GammaSMC via CUDA. This insane efficiency allows for pairwise TMRCAs to be inferred on huge numbers of samples.
That in turn has many uses for downstream analysis, and Korfmann and Mathieson apply it to detecting recent selective sweeps finding many known sites and a few new hits. They also look at TMRCAs of recent selection hits found by Akbari et al in different populations.
The preprint is super interesting, and I will be reading it more deeply. Beyond the novel findings of the authors themselves, I have a feeling that their new ultra fast CUDA optimized Gamma SMC will lead to many more findings. Read the preprint here: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.64898/2026.05.21.726777v1
@ Mr Shomu tepe
Thanks for the link. Great work. We'll see next if Harvard will be the truth of the future yet or not...
People in the West live in comfort and prosperity, simply enjoying life. They don't need any conquests. Western politicians are focused on winning the next election, not on taking away territory from their neighbors. This is the life that Russians dream of, but which they don't have. I don't understand the nature of relations between people of different nationalities in the West. Russian propaganda claims that everything is bad and that interethnic clashes occur constantly in the West. I think this is an exaggeration. In Russia itself, the level of hatred between different nationalities is very high. There is no unity; everyone hates each other, and civil war will break out at any opportunity.
@Davidski The population of the forest zone of Eastern Europe was under strong Scythian influence, according to archaeologists. Most likely, this population interbred with the Scythians and was completely Scythized. It would be strange if someone resembling the Slavs came from the forest zone of Eastern Europe, given that the early Slavs showed no Scythian influence. How did they manage to avoid the Scythians?
@dancingfragments
There's no evidence of widespread Scythian admixture in the forest zone of Eastern Europe.
@Davidski There is no direct evidence of the spread of Scythian genetics into the forest zone, but there is considerable indirect evidence. From an archaeological perspective, forest zone cultures were under a Scythian veil. This doesn't necessarily prove admixture, but it makes it highly probable. Among the nomadic Scythians, we see numerous samples with some Baltic_BA admixture. This admixture is generally small, but widespread among the Scythians. This indicates widespread admixture between the Scythians and forest zone populations. Finally, Baltic-like individuals from the first centuries AD from Viminacium and other Roman territories, from Tanais, and elsewhere, must have originated from the forest zone of Eastern Europe, and all of them show steppe admixture. Even those who look like Baltic_BA individuals like DZS-42 or R6759 actually have steppe admixture. If this admixture is late and originates from the Sarmatians, not the Scythians, we might expect to see unmixed individuals with a pure Baltic_BA profile, but there are none. This fact makes it more likely that this admixture originated earlier, from the Scythians. Pure, unmixed individuals no longer exist. This is precisely what Vyazov and Kasyan are currently discussing. Thus, we are left with a question of probability. There is no direct evidence, but it is likely that the forest zone population interbred with the Scythians. This is more likely than the hypothesis that the ancestors of the Slavs somehow did not interbreed with the Scythians.
@dancingfragments
There's a lot of speculation in your post.
The fact is that there's minimal Scythian/Sarmatian-related ancestry in early Slavs. It's also a fact that early Slavs are almost indistinguishable from the southernmost Iron Age Balts of what is now Lithuania.
So the Slavic homeland had to have been somewhere close to modern-day Lithuania, and the proto-Slavs in this homeland didn't receive much Scythian admixture. There's nothing to debate about that.
In the absence of direct evidence, the absence of admixture between the forest zone population and the Scythians is also purely speculative, and we must weigh the probabilities of various hypotheses. How likely is it that the forest zone population did not admix with the Scythians? It seems unlikely. But early Slavs typically lack steppe admixture. This likely means that the ancestors of the Slavs did not live in the forest zone. This is a reasonable assumption, which, of course, can be refuted by new data. If the ancestors of the Slavs were located near Lithuania, that is, quite far from the Scythians, not in Polesia, then they could likely have avoided admixture.
Yes, but this text is not mine, I just copied it from Twitter, which is why it contains such appeal forms.
There's another, even more interesting, problem. Early Slavs, similar to Baltic_BA, are not identical to Baltic_BA. Baltic-like Slavs are more southern than Baltic_BA. If the Slavs originated somewhere along the border between Belarus and Lithuania, how could they have become more southern? Did some southern people migrate to northern Belarus in the Iron Age, and did this unknown southern people provide the ancestors of the Slavs with additional southern admixture? Who could it have been? Or did the ancestors of the Slavs interbreed with southern peoples after settling in the Balkans? But this seems unlikely, since Baltic-like Slavs, compared to Baltic_BA, shift toward populations of the archaic EEF+WHG appearance, which could not have existed in the Middle Ages. This shift is reliable, since every early Slavic sample contains individuals with a similar shift. This cannot be a coincidence or an individual characteristic of individual samples. All Baltic-like Slavs have this EEF-WHG shift. This is the biggest mystery for me.
Proto-Slavs were more southern genetically than Balts because their location was more southern. In other words, they were more affected by the gradual diffusion of admixture from the south.
This process is known as isolation-by-distance (IBD). You can read about it here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolation_by_distance
A girl from Finland came to what was once the Karelia annexed from her country and was just fucking floored by the goddamn shitshow going on there.
https://x.com/j__o__k__/status/2058407344363524262
Well, one idiot in the comments doubted that this was Karelia and that the video was filmed in Russia. To prove it, he took a screenshot from the video, which shows a car with European license plates. 😁
It looks like it has a Finnish license plate, meaning the car is most likely from Finland.
The inscription under the car reads "suomalainen auto"—which in Finnish means "Finnish car" or "car from Finland."
So, it could be her car, since she's from Finland.
https://x.com/Neksys_/status/2058450446184788161?s=20
Davidski what do you think about this paper ?
https://www.academia.edu/165206348/The_Proto_Indo_European_Origin_of_J1_P58_The_Mitanni_Migrations_That_Shaped_the_Levant_and_Beyond_Version_3_
And do you still think J1-M267 may be an EHG?
@Isz
No idea what that paper's about.
@Isz
I downloaded this book, because it is a book, a while ago, but I haven't had time to study it. It seems well-written, and Bota has even reconstructed his origins and that of his surname—from Iran, I seem to recall. When I have time, I'll study it, since I think everything deserves to be studied, and nothing should be ignored out of prejudice. In general, I'd say that the Mitanni, that is, the Charioteers of Sintashta, gave rise to all the royal dynasties of the East, up to the Mycenaeans, the heroes of the Homeric epics. The only haplogroup J was perhaps that of Cadmus of Thebes, but I thought they incorporated it into the Levant, because, of course, there were intermarriages, as always. Tutankhamun's lineage, with its haplogroup R1b, could descend from them, but also from the most ancient diffusions of each haplogroup throughout the landmass, as we know.
"And do you still think J1-M267 may be an EHG?"
No dude, J1 is not EHG, it's Caucasus/Middle East
When you have time
feel free to enter and read if you want , the subject of it is really writing on the link . Witu no connection to the link i am also really intrested abour your opinion with J-M267 possibility to be from EHG since i am also from this haplogroup but negative to the mutations that caucasian hunter gatherers had (at least the ones that we find and know for now ) )
Gio
What book do you mean ?
Is this site a subsidiary of the Eurogen blog? This article is over 16 years old and I just stumbled upon it now.
https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html?m=1
By the way, among the Dargins of Urkarakh, 100 percent of the men are carriers of haplogroup J1-Z1842.
@Isz
"Gio
What book do you mean?"
Exactly the one you mentioned, because it's not just an essay, but a full-fledged book: 166 pages, so very detailed and complex.
To @Rob, I'd like to say that it's always dangerous to judge someone without knowing them, their history, and why they wrote what they wrote. You know I don't share these anti-Russian positions either, but Isz's desire is precisely to be genetically "European" and not a descendant of Abraham. He contacted me many years ago precisely about his Y J1, and I wrote to him that there were J1s in Europe who had nothing to do with Abraham, and this time, too, subsequent data proved me right.
@ ISz
''https://www.academia.edu/165206348/The_Proto_Indo_European_Origin_of_J1_P58_The_Mitanni_Migrations_That_Shaped_the_Levant_and_Beyond_Version_3_''
interesting topic, but the essay is hard to read. Suggests that J1a-P58 (or at least some of it) in West Asia is assoc. wth Iranians, Mitanni. Problem is that P58 is already present in pre-steppe Western Asia (Geoksur, Eastern Turkey), and it is missing in Indo-Iranian contexts ?
But Shomu is the expert on J1
Levantine J-P58 precedes the Mittani altogether so that part is impossible. It could relate to Khirbet-Kerak wares but it seems like that would be an overly significant patriline turnover? (given that the Levant primarily remained non-Hurro-Urartian, at least as far as we can tell).
Should be intresting to dig inside at least for me but i do not have enough knowledge about it anyway , I am also negative to P58 , i have another (majority are ashkenazi ) J1 subclade. For some reason i do share paternal ancestor around 600 CE with the sample :goldenen stiege 206 late avar that had european like aDNA 😆
Judging by the published cast list for Christopher Nolan’s new film Odyssey, I don’t think Iosif Lazpridis will be thrilled about this movie )
Yeah that J1 'paper'' (calling it a paper is generous) is a Mess. Academie.edu is being dluted by non-seriuos contributors.
Reminds me of that guy FinnGeek, FinnGreek, or whatever he himself, who posts scraps of anonymous garbage on Academia.edu becuse his theory is 'super top secret'. As if he''s planning a Mission to Mars instead of continued Failing at Uralics.
i am reading this blog for years and you are always making me laugh with your comments rob so good to know another opinion about this mission to mars😆 , i know there are many bullshit in the internet that's why i share this here , to hear educated opinions about this.
No one's going to Mars anytime soon, and there won't be any human colony on Mars ever.
But I'm very much in favor of Elon Musk flying to Mars, one way of course, to set an example and win the Darwin Award.
@Shomu
ADMIXTURE creates components from many ethnic groups, usually small ones that are relatively highly inbred.
That's why the output from ADMIXTURE is often so difficult to interpret.
Kalash samples often form a genetic component in ADMIXTURE analyses that also shows up in many parts of West Eurasia including Europe.
In the past, this was interpreted as evidence that the Kalash were an ancient population ancestral to Europeans, and that they managed to stay unadmixed and homogenous for thousands of years. Haha.
Of course, the reality is that the Kalash have Corded Ware European ancestry from Sintashta-related groups. Dienekes "crackpot" Pontikos was never able to figure this out.
Yes, you're right. 👍
@ Gio
Not sure I understand what you're saying- I've never said that J1 or Isz's lineage is 'from Abraham'. First time im commenting to him here & I like him.
@ Shomu
''Judging by the published cast list for Christopher Nolan’s new film Odyssey, I don’t think Iosif Lazpridis will be thrilled about this movie )''
I'm sure every genuine Anthro Bro, despite squabbling about nuances of Genetic interpretation, wants to see accurate representations of others' culture & history. And it's true - there are talented Greek or Greek-ancestry artists they could have used. Mel Gibson, another great crazy Aussie, used essentially unknown native actors succesfully in several moveis (eg Apocalypto).
But the counter-arguement is that Nolan is catering for the 'modern West' which is diverse, bringing the tale to a new audience. So long as the copyright & studio legalities are fine, then he is at liberty to adopt it in his own vision. It's not as if this is the final say and nobody else can do a different re-make in due course.
@Davidski I extracted a few individuals from AADR v66, I think I have all those with enough coverage that we don't have G25 for and I added some others that were quite low coverage before. (total 119 indivs) Could you convert them to G25? https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bO9-fcJMSw1PQbmGKlHlcMZiptFxb8mf/view
@crashdoc
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z5r0zKgP3momb7d7E4vBrdrUHH66rkU-/view?usp=sharing
Thanks!
@crashdoc
Is this your message?
https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?tid=648&pid=77894#pid77894
In general, what level of SNP coverage were you able to obtain for individual VEK007?
It was already in G25, around 30 percent coverage. How much were you able to improve it?
@ Rob I wish mel gibson would make new european period pieces. The only western director who does an ok job at this is robert eggers but he is no mel gibson
The pattern of borrowed in-law terms in Proto-Indo-European is striking. Words like father-in-law, son-in-law, daughter-in-law, sister-in-law, often come from neighboring non IE languages like Caucasian or Uralic. Crucially these terms are missing in Hittite, the earliest branch. This suggests that after 3500 BCE, steppe communities began forming marital alliances with outsiders. Women marrying into PIE groups brought new vocabulary and likely new genes. Standard models acknowledge contact but rarely treat exogamous marriage as a primary driver of lexical change. This linguistic fossil points to a social practice that archaeology and genetics alone cannot easily recover.
https://x.com/kvali_app/status/2060342964564476252
@ rozbójnik
''@ Rob I wish mel gibson would make new european period pieces. The only western director who does an ok job at this is robert eggers but he is no mel gibson''
I think he is developing a miniseries on The Siege of Mal'ta. Im sure itll be good rather than GayMerican
@ Arsen
''https://x.com/kvali_app/status/2060342964564476252''
yay, more Copium from chukrastan
@ rozbójnik
GIbson is apparentrly making a mini-series on the Siege of Malta.
@ Arsen
''The pattern of borrowed in-law terms in Proto-Indo-European is striking. Words like father-in-law, son-in-law, daughter-in-law, sister-in-law, often come from neighboring non IE languages like Caucasian or Uralic. Crucially these terms are missing in Hittite, the earliest branch. This suggests that after 3500 BCE, steppe communities began forming marital alliances with outsiders. Women marrying into PIE groups brought new vocabulary and likely new genes. Standard models acknowledge contact but rarely treat exogamous marriage as a primary driver of lexical change. This linguistic fossil points to a social practice that archaeology and genetics alone cannot easily recover.
https://x.com/kvali_app/status/2060342964564476252''
A 'Computer engineer'. So basically a frustrated incel from chukrastan posting lies about Europe
@Rob
This is a master’s thesis about foreign elements in the Proto-Indo-European vocabulary, that is, about which words in Proto-Indo-European may be borrowings from other languages. The author is Rasmus Gudmundsen Bjørn. The work is associated with the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
This author has nothing to do with the Caucasus or the Urals; he is from Denmark, not from churchkestan.
@Mr Shomu tepe
I just took VEK007 it from AADRv66 and it has ~600k snps vs ~400k snps previously
@ Shomu
“ This is a master’s thesis about foreign elements in the Proto-Indo-European vocabulary, that is, about which words in Proto-Indo-European may be borrowings from other languages. The author is Rasmus Gudmundsen Bjørn. The work is associated with the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
This author has nothing to do with the Caucasus or the Urals; he is from Denmark, not from churchkestan.”
Meh Sounds speculative & boring . if Guus Kroonen l, the HoD of the Copenhagen Language School, is anything to go by, then I wouldn’t even waste my time reading this.
Anyhow, I wouldn’t trust anything posted and promoted on your Chukrestan network, which basically exists to misrepresent genetic data to present an anti-European polropaganf and compensate for their own misery in life. You guys are the next generation of OIT cultism, rinse/ repeat but adapted to CIHG, less comical but more malignant and insidious;
Davidski resisted the garbage from OIT, but seems to tolerate and enjoy your garbage, because he’s a spice cuck who has lost his self respect
@crashdoc
Brother, are all the samples on the AADR V66 list, or just some of the ones from before? I'll send you a private message on your account on the genarchivist website, through my profile under the nickname Arsen, and I'll send you some other samples. Can you check if they're on this new AADR V66 list?
@ Shomu
“This is a master’s thesis about foreign elements in the Proto-Indo-European vocabulary, that is, about which words in Proto-Indo-European may be borrowings from other languages. The author is Rasmus Gudmundsen Bjørn. The work is associated with the University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
This author has nothing to do with the Caucasus or the Urals; he is from Denmark”
I don’t need your dumb AI-translation
1. The poster is just a Georgian version of vasistha- low-wit grifting about topics he has no clue of,
2. Copenhagen linguists are losers associated with Guus Kroonen , allentoft and Kroonen
Stop crying
@ Shomu: ''stop' crying''
About Caucasian women bringing in some loan words into PIE, e.g. wine ?
A pred. female mediated admixture is what most people here have been saying, and only further supports the view that PIE emerged amongst male -led clans of European hunter-gatherers from the Black Sea region.
On the contrary, it goes against your theory that Pastoralism was invented in Dagestan (before Mesopotamia, Armenian Farmers or Europe) and then spread to the Khvalynsk culture by J1-males. Seems rather fanciful in light of absent evidence from Chokh and the fisher-hunter-gather dietary isotope profile from analysed Khvalynsk individuals.
That said, the lexical evidence will be undoubtedly skewed because we don't have surviving 'EEF languages' for lexical comparanda; apart from the Aegean or Iberia, which are too far to be relevant. Kroonen has made some silly claims that 'linguistic paleantology' suggests ancient Europeans weren't familiar with the concept of pastoralism until introduced via the Caucasus; a fallacy any amateur reading Google or Wikipedia can check for thiemselves
This Kvali guy is just another Internet poster who repeats the same ole' normie narrative, crashing out when challenged. We don;t need 7,000 people posting the same thing, we require people moving above and revealing the accurate truth. You should talk less and think more
This is what he/she wrote about the Caucasus
''A population can completely change its lifestyle, its tech, its fashion, and even the physical shape of its bones without a single drop of population replacement.''
LOL Yeah right. Always population replacement for Europe, Ice Age continuity for the Caucasus. We've seen this caricature before
@ Rob
I noticed these “Caucasus” people have an outsized presence in genetic/anthropology spaces, and they are just as self-centered, resentful and insecure as the Indians (which is not an easy feat). Any topic dealing with the Proto-Indo-European's in particular will inevitably draw out some 5’6” mountain peasant "professor" like a moth to flame.
I guess it’s hard being a footnote in the history books of the Europeans, Iranians and Turks LOL.
I don't know, I haven't met any Caucasians who claim the same thing as me.
For other Caucasians, the Caucasus is a trivial path; for me, the Caucasus is a source.
I guess they're butthurt that Indo-Europeans had Caucasian grandmothers, so naturally they need to find ways to cope about it to relieve themselves from the shame attached to their female ancestors' relatives being concubines of R1b men.
@Davidski
Corded Ware is from Yamnaya. R-P310 in Yamnaya & Afanasievo is proof.
It's time to move on from fantasising about post-Stog ghost populations. Usatove failed to pan out as a source for Proto-CW.
The only mystery remaining is how R-M417 got into Corded Ware. Though there's an R1a in Usatove.
The IBD, admixture dating between Yamnaya & GAC, auDNA, the boatload of shared mtDNA between Yamnaya & Corded Ware, as well as R-P310 (found in Yamnaya & Afanasievo) and the linguistics all line up with Corded Ware being derived from Yamnaya.
There's a chance R-M417 might be even from Narva or Neman culture and could explain the extra Ukraine_N-like ancestry in Corded Ware.
@Perkwunos
R1a-M417 is not from Narva or Neman. It's from the same place as the Usatovo R1a.
And both Yamnaya and Corded Ware derive from Sredny Stog.
I'm not sure where Usatovo's R1a came from. It's pretty upstream, and there isn't much Don/Ukr_N ancestry in Usatovo. It could conceivably come from the same place as the Khvalynsk or the Steppe Maikop R1a source.
I feel relatively good about R-M417 coming from a bit upstream the Don, though.
Usatovo R1a might be M417 and from the same place, but L151 is from Yamnaya and there's too much evidence for Yamnaya > Corded Ware now.
Enough coping about Yamnaya being overrated. Sredny Stog is irrelevant (too old), Repin probably is relevant and Yamnaya is it's successor.
Afanasievo and Corded Ware are early Yamnaya offshoots, east and west respectively.
@Perkwunos
Corded Ware doesn't come from the Yamnaya that was rich in R1b-Z2103, otherwise Corded Ware would be rich in R1b-Z2103.
But the thing is, all of the sampled Yamnaya is rich in R1b-Z2103.
This is an obvious fact that not even you can ignore.
That's a strawman.
P310 (upstream of L151) is now in Afanasievo and Serbian Yamnaya.
Plenty of Yamnaya like early Budzhak and Middle Dnieper remain unsampled.
Your only last bet is something like Zhivotilovka-Volchansk.
I don't see why Budzhak Yamnaya would differ from the early Moldovan Yamnaya we already have sampled.
Anyway, the MRCA between Yamnaya, Afanasievo and Corded Ware looks to date to like ~3500bc. That's more or less what the uniparentals and IBD imply, at least.
@Perkwunos
One of the defining features of Yamnaya is now R1b-Z2103.
So it's just easier, and arguably more correct, to call the ~3,500 BCE population that gave rise to Corded Ware as something else than Yamnaya.
That population, when sampled, will be rich in R1a-M417 and R1b-L51.
@Ethan
Those Moldovan guys could be migrants. That's why there's J-L283 in one them I reckon.
The pre 3000 BCE one was a female.
@Davidski
Good luck finding that population.
R-M417 wasn't common anywhere between ~ 3500-3000 BCE.
Both R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 were common in the population that gave rise to Corded Ware.
Based on what? You've seen unpublished data or is this just more marketing for your Y-DNA packaged as educated inferences?
Like I said, Yamnaya is actually characterized by a high frequency of R1b-Z2103.
On the other hand, Corded Ware shows a high level of frequency and also diversity in R1a-M417 and R1b-L51.
And considering that we're dealing with highly patriarchal and patrilineal groups, then Yamnaya and Corded Ware look like different populations that split around 3,500 BCE from a common source.
That's just what it is.
@ Davidski
Of course, but it is clear to me now that the Indo-European Languages did come from Yamnaya (look what I wrote about the R-Z2103 who brought the Euphratic into Mesopotamia and Latin and Siculian to Italy through the Adriatic). They expanded to the Corded Ware culture through both men and women and after to the Bell Beaker culture through women, thus the men were above all old R1b-L51 developed in Central Europe. The Corded Ware R1a developed the satem languages from the original centum ones and migrated to Central Asia and after to the Indo-Iranians.
It is clear to me that the first migration of R-Z2103 happened at the level of the oldest subclades, until R-Z2110. Another later expansion only to Central Europe happened through the more recent subclades downstrean R-Z2110.
@Davidski
If I understand isolation-by-distance correctly, it's something like a founder effect. So, if I'm not mistaken, the Balto-Slavs cannot descend from the Baltic BA. The Baltic BA and the Balto-Slavs must have emerged around the same time in some shared context, and are independent parts of a single genetic continuum.
@Gioiello
There was a variety of Y-haplogroups in the Proto-Indo-European gene pool, not just R1b-Z2103.
It's impossible to say which ones exactly at this time, and it might never be possible to figure this out unless we actually have a large number of samples from the Proto-Indo-European homeland.
But from the Y-haplogroups that we can see in Yamnaya and early Corded Ware and those that experienced large expansions in Indo-European speaking populations, it's likely that R1b-Z2103, R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 were all present in the homeland.
I2a-L699 was probably present as well because it appears to be associated with Proto-Anatolians.
The idea that Yamnaya "Indo-Europeanized" Corded Ware is idiotic.
Both Yamnaya and Corded Ware represent expansions from the Indo-European homeland, with Yamnaya representing the steppe expansions and Corded Ware representing the expansions into the forest steppe and the forests.
Yamnaya and Corded Ware share a common drift that is apparently absent from Sredny Stog.
@dancingfragments
Isolation-by-distance is not like founder effect. These are two completely different and unrelated processes.
Isolation-by-distance just means that geographic distance is likely to have a significant impact on the genetic structure of populations.
Thus, a population located closer to southern Europe is expected to be genetically more southern European.
So, both Balts and Slavs can descend from Baltic BA, but under isolation-by-distance, Slavs are going end up more southern European because their homeland is south of the Baltic homeland.
That is, since the Slavic homeland is located south of the Baltic homeland, then naturally the Slavs are going to be more exposed to southern European-related gene flow.
In that case, it's simply an additional southern admixture, or else I don't understand what we're talking about. If the Slavs are more southern because they are geographically closer to the original southern source they and the Baltic BA share, then they don't descend from the Baltic BA, but formed together in a single melting pot. I imagine this as a single cloud on a PCA plot, stretching from north to south. The Baltic BA are at the northern end, and the Slavs are at the southern end. Then we erase the middle part, and it seems as if we're seeing two distinct clouds.
@ Davidski
"The idea that Yamnaya "Indo-Europeanized" Corded Ware is idiotic".
Of course at this point genetics should agree with linguistics, and here is the difficulty. When I said that the IE in the centum form did expand from Yamnaya it is because I have some proof about that: I said the expansion of some old subclades of R-Z2103 to the Mesopotamia (the supposed Euphrartic, substrate of the Sumerian). At the same time the centum IE to the Latin/Siculian through the Adriatic, that I think is different from the other Italic languages which did come from central Europe. The same happened for the Celtic languages: the oldest *Kw- form until Ireland and Scotland and the more recent Celtic *p->*kw- form.
It is possible that also the first expansion to the Corded Ware and the Bell Beakers was a centum IE form. Then the satem form developed later in eastern Europe and formed above all by hg. R1a.
It is important to me what you say: "I2a-L699 was probably present as well because it appears to be associated with Proto-Anatolians", just because I-M223 was in Italy and only in Italy between 20000 and 10000 years ago, and that does mean the direction of the expansion of the same IE languages, and also the first separation of the Hittite and its origin, which are the Balkans of course.
@dancingfragments
Southern Balts have more southern European-related admixture than northern Balts due to isolation-by-distance, and southern Balts have never really been genetically separated from northern Balts.
@Gioiello
All of Corded Ware didn't develop the Satem shift, that's why Celtic and Germanic don't show the Satem shift.
The Satem shift is just shared by Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian.
@ Tom
lol ya Larrikin. But of course, everyone is welcome to study & discuss any topic of their choice. There are fundamental conditions (1) present what the data actually shows rather than twisting it to tell a predetermined narrrative; (2) be able to analyse the data & understand the topic from 'first principles' rather than just echoing what you've read (3) take advice from the Top Gs graciously. If so, we're all Bros.
@ Davidski
"@Gioiello
All of Corded Ware didn't develop the Satem shift, that's why Celtic and Germanic don't show the Satem shift.
The Satem shift is just shared by Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian".
Of course, but this needs that the age of the migration of the IE R1a to Central Asia is older, much older, because Sanskrit needs more Years to become so different from Balto-Slavic.
@Gioiello
Sanskrit is very similar to Balto-Slavic.
There's a lot of stuff online showing how similar Sanskrit is to Lithuanian, for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzRxSVK7qIU&t=22s
RE; Yamnaya & CW.
It all depends on how you define "Yamnaya'. There is a broad definition used in fmr Soviet regions, esp western Russia, to refer to any steppe group between 4000 and 2600bc. A second definition used in 'western literature' entails a specific horizon from ~ 3100 BC with standardised burials, although it has its roots in the nebulous 'early Yamnaya cultures' of 4000-3300 bc, esp east of the Dnieper.
According to the 'strict' / western definition, steppe Yamnaya (incl the Alfold in Hungary) is an R1b-Z2103 expansion/ founder effect. So obviously CW cannot 'derive' from that phenomenon, the idea that R1b-L151 & R1a guys were an 'invisible underclass' makes no sense, because Yamnaya was internally egalitarian, and we've observed other lineages, such as J2b and I2a in 'Yamnaya' & Catacomb.
Sredni Stog (4700-4000 bc) is heavily I2a-L703, deriving from Azov-Dnieper Neolithics who integrated with 'LVCs', etc. The I2a-rich groups of Cernavoda and post-Tripolje are a western expansion of S.S. So, Perkwunos is right that early Sredni Stog (the main population substrate) was not the source of Yamnaya-CW.
However, we nevertheless see R1a-M17 & R1b-M269 appearing soon after 4000 bc, in ''post-Sredni Stog'' groups between the Manych and Moldova. Whatever their distal roots (? middle Don), these groups homogenized culturally & genetically after 3600bc on the Black Sea steppe itself, and then proto-CW moved north whilst Z2103 expanded across the steppe.
Some early CW males are ~ 90% Yamnaya.
A key concept to grasp (IMO) is that CW develops in northern Europe, not in the Budzhak region or Malopolska. It actually spread later into those regions during the middle CW period from the north. IMO 'the Budzhak culture' is a Yamnaya variant, with pre-Yamnaya layovers and northern CW influences.
@ Davidski
But to compare single words is like in genetics to compare in the autosome some SNPs far tousands or ten of thousands of bp. In Italian we have even to-day these words: fumo, sogno, igni(fugo) etc.
@Perkwunos
"I guess they're butthurt that Indo-Europeans had Caucasian grandmothers, so naturally they need to find ways to cope about it to relieve themselves from the shame attached to their female ancestors' relatives being concubines of R1b men."
Hold on, don’t rush — what shame are you talking about?
What’s shameful about peoples constantly mixing and exchanging genes and skills?
Without that mixing, there would be no Indo-Europeans at all.
Why did you conclude that the mixing happened through Caucasian women?
More likely, it was a mix in roughly equal proportions between the J1-Z1841 and R1b-V1636 groups, but since these were small groups on both sides, the founder effect randomly allowed R1b to outcompete J1. I think this happened around 6,000–5,500 BC.
@Arsen
There were no random founder effects that replaced J1, it was rare in the first place. And R-V1636 didn't outcompete anybody. In fact, R-V1636 got replaced by Maykop and Steppe Maykop.
What we're seeing is a sampling bias of R-V1636 Lower-Volga derived hunter-fishers from Khvalynsk (including Berezhnovka) to Piedmont steppe. Which creates equally retarded suggestions by the likes of people like Rob and CLV copers (including yourself). E.g CLV women donated to Dnieper-Azov or CLV were turbo Dagestanis.
@ Davidski
What do you mean? The Aukstaitians are close to the Baltic-like Slavs and on the PCA there is a gap between the Aukstaitians and the Baltic BA. This means either additional southern admixture or missing links. Considering that such samples as Kivutkalns42, Kivutkalns194, Marvele R10830 look like intermediate between Baltic BA and aukštayts, it is more likely that some links were missed. The Samogitians and Latvians occupy a position between the Aukštaitians and Lithuania_IA and must be a mixture of both.
The Corded Ware people exhibit Yamnaya drift. This drift is absent from the Sredny Stog people. This means either that the Corded Ware people are descended from Yamnaya, or that they share a common ancestor that differs from the Sredny Stog people.
@ Shomu
''Without CHG mixing, there would be no Indo-Europeans at all.'
CHG cavemen from the tras-Caucasus supplied obsidian and flint to the para/ non-IE CLV groups. CLV females were then captured & taken by IE groups. So there is no direct CHG input in PIE, and without J1/ CHG clans, early PIE might have had to 2nd-hand borrow the word for 'rock' from somehwere else.
We can therefore surmise that CHG are fairly irrelevant for PIE language formation, as they were low -status and far away from where the PIE groups were residing -between the Dnieper & Don interfluve.
There are a couple of Shuvaleri loans into PIE, mediated via Majkop, such as the wine example. But these people are not 'CHG'', calling these Mesopotamian-derived farmers 'CHG' is just you twisting reality for yourself.
@dancingfragments
I mean that there's a cline in southern European-related admixture in Northeastern Europe, and this cline was produced via isolation-by-distance over a long time.
That is, the admixture came very gradually from many different near and far sources and can't be attributed to any major migrations from southern Europe.
@Perkwunos
Do you also use a translator to send messages? Can I ask where you're from? 🤔
@Perkwunos
Yes, but you forgot to mention who truly displaced R1b-V1636 from the steppes — I'm of course talking about M269, a clan of supremely successful herders (possibly originating from the Don region). They refined all those pastoral skills inherited from their R1b-V1636 predecessors and added new elements absorbed from Maykop and early Kura-Araxes.
I don't know — these are just my speculations, there's still very little data on the Caucasus. We'll see.
@ twerkpundos
“What we're seeing is a sampling bias of R-V1636 Lower-Volga derived hunter-fishers from Khvalynsk (including Berezhnovka) to Piedmont steppe. Which creates equally retarded suggestions by the likes of people like Rob and CLV copers (including yourself). E.g CLV women donated to Dnieper-Azov or CLV were turbo Dagestanis.”
ROFL “sampling bias”.
There are dozens of samples between the Caucasus and the Volga
The Proto Yamnaya lineages are missing until after 4000 bc, for a very good reason
In fact yes there is a sampling bias, in the opposite manner you claim. The entire research conducted by David Anthony and the Reich group reeks of bias. They went in with a predetermined narrative, Cherry picked samples, withheld others, manipulated publications, and still failed to prove their respective pet theories
You have misunderstood my proposal, which relates to the I2a- dominated Sredni Stog- Cernavoda cline, where apart from a couple of V1636 at Kartal, “Volga cline” male lineages are lacking. The alleged LVC input is female Mediated, if you don’t understand this, you should go back to primary School biology and learn about the birds and the bees.
Even for Yamnaya, it can be modelled as middle Don + lower Don, making CLV irrelevant, apart from a handful that tagged along in Kalmykia.
And yes, yamnaya itself is overrated. It is not the the source of post-Anatolian IE, just one downstream subgroup which contributed to Armenian and Tocharian.
It doesn’t matter how much you drink from David Anthony‘s Kool-Aid, this is the objective reality
@Rob
You don't understand my position so don't speak for me.
And everyone knows you're the
I-L703 Macedonian on FamilyTreeDNA so your motivations have always been clear.
By the way, your qpAdm models are often trash.
@Perkwunos
Triple combo, that's it, you've made yourself an enemy, be ready to defend yourself 👊 😁
@Shomu
I don't have anything against people from Dagestan. Unfortunately, these discussions online draw a lot of negativity because people have agendas.
Everyone has something to learn.
@ twerkpundos
“Your models are trash”
you’re some drunkard obsessed with Yamnaya, angry for being categorically rejected.
And no, I’m not “L703 on Macedonian ftDNA”. Delusional projector
Every man who loves his wife and cares for his children I take seriously.
Rob doesn't strike me as an empathetic man.
@Shomu
Attacking love proves the point.
@Perkwunos
Not to side with Rob, but you appear to have a large chip on your shoulder. That's probably why your takes on Yamnaya are biased and poorly thought out.
You have that Iosif Lazaridis/Dienekes Pontikos energy about you. So I'm guessing you're some butthurt Caucasian.
This makes it hard to take you seriously.
@Davidski
I guess you're still butthurt what I said about R1a and Corded Ware potentially.
Hilarious. Everyone has their biases, including you Polako.
Iosif isn't even Caucasian. He's a full-on Greek nationalist.
@Perkwunos
If you come here to troll then you look like an idiot and you can't be taken seriously.
And Iosif is practically a Caucasian. He's an ethnic Greek from near Armenia somewhere.
Perkwunos would be an odd name for a Caucasian person.
Probably a confused/ frustrated East Slav or Balt, possibly in a state of personal Copium about not being the 'steroteypical Slav' R1a' (probably via non-Slavic paternity/ bastard).
Eitherway, the silly LARP-name conveys inferiority cmplex/ chip on shoulder
Complete noob in genetics. Hasnt produced a single model or interesting theory, just lectures his percieved Gospel
Needless to say, Shomu is attracted to him now like fly to shit
@ twerky
''Rob doesn't strike me as an empathetic man.''
Oh sugar plum, I'm sorry. Can we please get a safe space for twerky stat !
@Davidski
Convenient response. You're horrible at reading people.
"you can't be taken seriously."
Idem ditto.
@Perkwunos
I've got some bad news for you. I'm taken very seriously in this area of science.
@Davidski
Your influence is a double-edged sword.
You have some solid graps on the data, and I even enjoy reading some of it.
But you are too brash to be taken too seriously.
@Perkwunos
When I said that I was taken seriously, I didn't mean by you.
@ Davidski
“You have that Iosif Lazaridis/Dienekes Pontikos energy about you”.
“And Iosif is practically a Caucasian. He's an ethnic Greek from near Armenia somewhere”.
@Davidski
You've become a caricature of yourself.
@ Davidski
You denied to me that Lazaridis were Dienekes Pontikos. I exchanged hundreds or thousands of letters more than 15 years ago with him, at the beginning of his autosome studies. I thought that he were Costa Tsirigakis, but he denied before dispairing. I don't know the Y of Dienekes, but Costa was a J2a from Venetian origin. About Greeks you all forgot the Venetian intake.
Iosif Lazaridis and Dienekes Pontikos aren't the same person.
But they're both Pontian Greeks, and I suspect as a result of this, both have spread the same sort of nonsense about the PIE issue.
In my opinion, they have both done a lot of damage to this area of study.
@ Davidski
In fact, genes travelled like words. Costa Tsirigakis (the surname from the “Venetian” island of Cerigo) said that Dienekes was a Greek of the Pontos, and I understood that from Pontikos, Latin Ponticanus, did come the Venetian “pantegana”, the huge rat that they gave to Italy, with the pestilence...
I don;t have issues with Dienekkes, maybe he had odd ideas, but back then it was too early to have strong opinions. Was a good time, genuine European guys discussing out of interest
Now we have retarded peasants pretending to be experts, incl. the 'professors' at the Reich Lab.
Dienekes was desperate to prove that Slavs had no significant genetic link to the PIE homeland, that the PIE homeland was in West Asia, that the Indo-Iranian homeland was also in West Asia, and that R1a wasn't really a European Y-haplogroup.
He kept this up despite ancient DNA evidence to the contrary, and he actually quit blogging when it became clear that R1a spread from Europe to India during the Bronze Age. That was too much for him.
Read this for a good laugh, including the comments...
https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html?m=1
@Davidski
"Iosif Lazaridis and Dienekes Pontikos aren't the same person."
They're both Pontic Greeks and they both went to UC Irvine, and did so at the same time
They also are both that both are interested in the same field and have very overlapping skillsets.
I think it's very likely they are the same person
@MiroCyo
So this is Dienekes blogging about his own paper, saying it's finally great to see samples from ancient Greece? I don't think so.
https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2017/08/minoans-and-mycenaeans.html
Dienekes quit blogging when it became clear that R1a arrived in India from Europe during the Bronze Age and also that Proto-Greek came from the Eastern European steppe. That's because he hated that both of these hypotheses were finally proven.
In fact, he wasn't aware that R1a had been found in the Swat Valley samples when I was already aware of it. He even wrote a blog post at the time titled "R1ans still at large".
https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2018/04/r1ans-still-at-large-or-story-of-india.html
Sometimes it seems to me that the most frequently discussed person on this blog is Lazaridis.
@ Shomu to Twerkschilmos
''yes, but you forgot to mention who truly displaced R1b-V1636 from the steppes — I'm of course talking about M269, a clan of supremely successful herders (possibly originating from the Don region). They refined all those pastoral skills inherited from their R1b-V1636 predecessors and added new elements absorbed from Maykop and early Kura-Araxes.
I don't know — these are just my speculations, there's still very little data on the Caucasus. We'll see.''
Yamnaya has nothing from Kura-Arxes culture. Even majkop influences are overrated by these German Caucasianology fanatics - Svend Hansen & Sabine Reinhold. Nothing like the metallurgical splendour of Majkop is seen elsewhere in the Caucasus or Near East, meaning they learned the craft from Europeans, ultimately Varna traditions which predated it by 1000 years.
@Rob
I already said — we'll see.
@ MiroCyo
"@Davidski
"Iosif Lazaridis and Dienekes Pontikos aren't the same person."
They're both Pontic Greeks and they both went to UC Irvine, and did so at the same time
They also are both that both are interested in the same field and have very overlapping skillsets.
I think it's very likely they are the same person".
I thank you for your opinion, because, whatever we may think about him, he never banned me from his blog, he published all what I posted, just in the time all the blogs banned me in. For that I think he wasn't a Jew, and we have to explain how and why he ended at Harvard, perhaps because he is (just for what Davidski said) functional to the biblical agenda, but as a Greek he should have known history better just about the end of the Persian but also the Byzantine Empires.
“Nothing like the metallurgical splendour of Majkop is seen elsewhere in the Caucasus or Near East, meaning they learned the craft from Europeans, ultimately Varna traditions which predated it by 1000 years.”
Apologies- I must make mention of the terracotta asses produced in Harrapa & Sumer
@ Shomu
But I agree that it presently seems that pastoralism came predominantly via the Caucasus corridor.
this was a multi phase process: PPN-> Shuvaleri et al -> Nalchik -> “Caucasus-steppe En” -> ? lower Don -> Yamnaya
Open question to everyone:
What do you make out of a lack of R1b individuals among Corded Ware folks from Scandinavia (Battle Axe) and Northeastern Europe (Fatyanovo)?
I think that studying geographic patterns of R1a and R1b within the Corded Ware culture is a key to many debates.
@ Rob
But had those pastoralists the Y? Not J1 and J2, not R1 (a or b and neither 2). Only perhaps T or some E... Or were they only females and rams?
Further details about Yamnaya pastoralism: cattle-based in western Yamnaya & CW, a 'European tradition' (also @ Baden, GAC); sheep/ goats east of the Don, a Upper Near Eastern tradition. Ovicaprids are more suitable for the eastern segment of the PC steppe, which is colder & more arid.
Nevertheless, sheep bones are seen at Majaki-Usatavo EN sites, although acc. to the isotopic evidence, they relied mostly on fish. A bit surprising given the extent of Tripolje & Majkopian admixture & influences in Usatavo, but we can call it ecologic adaptation.
@ Gio
''But had those pastoralists the Y? Not J1 and J2, not R1 (a or b and neither 2). Only perhaps T or some E... Or were they only females and rams?''
The ''Caucasian-route pastoralists phenomenon'' ? It depdends at which point & place we are talking about. It;'s a constant change and mix, unlike the faiy tales invented by the Reich Lab, there is no simple story
Shuvaleri Neolithic farmers are pred. newcomers to the southern Caucasus region from the PPN sphere, They have Y-hg J2a dist. linked to Cayanu, and even R2 (a/w Iran)
This farming wave seems to sort of die off (or just enter a post-Boom Lull) after 5000 bc, but some mix with CHG and make it north of the Mountains, and then further mix with 'steppe Eneolithic' / LVC (Y-hg V1636 males) (i dislike this term, because it is a Harvard-ism) to form Nalchik (R1b-V1636 FE) & Meshoko-Unakozovskaya (J2a-M410-Z7671), which were early agropastoral communities, but not mobile pastoralists.
There is then a second wave of migration toward the Caucasus from the Near Eastern hub soon after 4200 BC (broadly called CFW horizon), which culminates in Majkop. Hence early Majkop have low CHG and we observe an even broader appearance of southern Y-hg (G2, L1, J2b, etc). This pushes much further north than Nalchik & Meshoko, hence we say LCV 'collapsed' because their territory was taken, the tribes dispersed and some of their females took refuge with pre-Yamnaya males further up the Don. But some LVC appear to have made it to Armenia as well.
Toward the late Majkop period, there is pred. female-mediate rise in CHG and 'Dolmenization' n the north/west Caucasus, whilst in the southern Caucasus the KAx phenomenon emerges with a clear rise in CHG assc. with Y-hg J1. This largely erases the preceding CFW and any 'steppe identity'
From 3200 BC, the early Yamnaya seeem to master mobile pastoralism, and expand toward the Caucasus, Majkop collapses back toward the Mountain foothills., with a general population decline ~ 2200 BC due to aride climate.
New migrations from Srubnaja-Catacomb mixed groups toward southern Caucasus
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