Outgroups AG3-MA1 Andamanese_Onge Chukchi Iran_Neolithic Karitiana Kostenki14 Levant_Neolithic Mbuti Mota Papuan Ust_Ishim Villabruna Adygei Armenia_EBA 0.633±0.062 Barcin_Neolithic 0.054±0.042 Scythian_IA 0.260±0.038 Han 0.053±0.011 chisq 4.712 tail_prob 0.787883 Adygei Armenia_EBA 0.580±0.127 Jordan_EBA 0.084±0.082 Scythian_IA 0.286±0.053 Han 0.050±0.011 chisq 5.070 tail_prob 0.750115 Adygei Armenia_EBA 0.699±0.034 Scythian_IA 0.252±0.039 Han 0.049±0.011 chisq 6.230 tail_prob 0.716716 Adygei Caucasus_HG 0.243±0.054 Jordan_EBA 0.342±0.033 Scythian_IA 0.360±0.039 Han 0.055±0.010 chisq 8.370 tail_prob 0.3982 Adygei Armenia_Chalcolithic 0.674±0.674 Caucasus_HG 0.147±0.147 Scythian_IA 0.113±0.113 Han 0.066±0.066 chisq 11.020 tail_prob 0.200589 Adygei Iran_Neolithic 0.221±0.035 Barcin_Neolithic 0.338±0.027 Scythian_IA 0.390±0.032 Han 0.051±0.011 chisq 12.709 tail_prob 0.079515Chalcolithic and Neolithic samples from modern-day Iran, even though very similar to Armenia_EBA and Caucasus_HG, don't appear to produce similarly effective models for the Adygei. That's not to say, however, that the Adygei don't have minor ancient ancestry from the Iranian Plateau. It's possible that they do, but I'm not able to test for it with this methodology. See also... Steppe Maykop: a buffer zone?
Genetic borders are usually linguistic borders too
On the genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus (Wang et al. 2018 preprint)
67 comments:
Maykop has 66.66% chance of to be the source of European R1a-M417 .
There's zero chance that European R1a-M417 came from Maykop.
There is 100% chance that zero is less than 66.66.
@Davidski If you think 0 percent I believe you.But then it'll turn to well the steppe barbarians got metallurgy or something from Maykop and if metallurgy why not language.Then the steppe groups did the rest.
Maykop community splits into two cultures - Maykop and Novosvobodnenskaya cultures that have different origins.
Recall that Y lineages have a tendency to die out. Simply because R1a1-M17 is found amongst the Adygei doesn't mean it was during the Maykop period. A prime example is how R1b was among the Baltic foragers but was largely replaced a thousand or so years later by R1a.
We see EEF male lineages were largely replaced by local European male lineages (steppe or otherwise depends on your view point). It's just as likely that metallurgy was learned and adopted by pastoralists who weren't the first to use the techniques. G-P303 or J2 of some common variety would be my first initial thought as being Maykop derived.
Yes, Yet Adygei are over 50% G and over 10% J2, are they not?
how do for instance Bagvalins look like since they are over 60% R1b? - Suppose not enough data to do the same as you did for Adygei, right?
Cut short my previous comment....
So that looks like that Maykop (adygei) theory of descendants of Leilatepe culture might be solid.
It means that the Maykop will be G and J and maybe the Mtdna we have with M in it makes sense. - MayKop are descendants of Iran chalcolithic?
....
However, to my story of the Shulaveri it would read something like - By 5000BC the OTHERS coming that dislodged the Shulaveri came not from purely south but from East/southeast (hence the L1a). Which makes what I wrote somewhat inaccurate. but...
.. Where did the 70% R1b Bagvalins came from? Could it be that the Bagvalins are Shulaveri run to the hills" people?
@David,
Do you think the North Caucasus as as much or more EHG than Central and Southern Europe? And do you think some as much as Northern Europeans?
Caucasins have as much U5a and U4 as Europeans. Steppe admixture in Europe may have been facilitated more by males than in the Caucasus but nonetheless it could mean EHG(maybe Steppe) ancestry in the Caucasus is equal to Steppe ancestry in much of Europe.
BTW, U5a peaks in three locations; Europe, Western Siberia, the Caucasus, and possibly some SC Asians(sample of 126 Tajick had high % of U5a). Those are the locations with the most EHG.
Just to give some context - Bagvalal and Tindi in Dagestan are over 60% r1b. Its just 120km away from say the heart of Shulaveri (50km from some of their populous sites) and always remembering the abstract of a 2015 paper - "Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations
of Daghestan"
It reads
"Highland Daghestani populations exhibit extremely high levels of between-population diversity for all genetic systems tested, leading to some of the highest FST values observed for any region of the world. In addition, we find a significant positive correlation between gene and language diversity, suggesting that these two aspects of human diversity have coevolved as a result of historical patterns of social interaction among highland farmers at the community level. Finally, our data are consistent with the hypothesis that most Daghestanian-speaking groups descend from a common ancestral population (~6000–6500 years ago) that
spread to the Caucasus by demic diffusion followed by population fragmentation and low levels of gene flow."
Yes, what population around 4500BC?
The steady 5% Han percentage across the models is interesting.
Do you suppose that this is a legacy of Silk Road traders? Or could it be mediated by Turkic or Mongolian migrants who had some Han admixture? Or is there any other plausible explanation?
The tricky part about any Caucasus population is that the modern gene pool is very balkanized. There are at least half a dozen quite genetically distinct populations in the region that a geographically very close to each other. Who is to say that Adygei is representative, and not Chechens or some other population two mountains over which is quite different.
Maikop is also notable because it is the probable source of some of the key metallurgy technologies employed by early Indo-Europeans, so one can image a model in which it is a low to moderate frequency source for steppe gene pools in the Bronze Age more than it is a sink receiving much of its gene pool from the steppe.
Analytically, one might expect Maikop to resemble the difference between Steppe hunter-gatherers and the Bronze Age Steppe gene pool. I'm not sure precisely what statistical tools you'd use to do that, but it would seem like a worthwhile thing to attempt.
I think Majkop could be anything from Yamnaya like to Armenia Chalcolithic like, and their impact could be merely cultural or measurably genetic.
Either way, I'd agree with Andrew that Agydei are probably a recent isolated or founder group
Yamnaya admixture in modern Caucasus populations from Davids Yamnaya_K6.
Georgians - ~5%-20%
Armenians - ~5%-14%
Azeri - ~16%-24%
Majkop will pretty much turn out to be similar to Armenia Chalcolithic, nothing Yamnaya-like.
@Al Bundy
But then it'll turn to well the steppe barbarians got metallurgy or something from Maykop and if metallurgy why not language.
Because words related to metallurgy in Indo-European languages are of non-Indo-European origin.
My prediction is lots of meltdowns and rewriting of history when we find mesolithic R1b in Western Europe.
Romulus - doesn't Italy count?
@MaxT
Armenia ChL shared some maternal lines with Yamnaya, they also had significant EHG . "Nothing Yamnaya like" is a bit of a stretch.
Question to everyone: Weren't the first Kurgan burials found in Maykop?
I predict a lot of meltdowns when people see all the L23 xL51, Z2103 in Eastern Europe.
No doubts Maykop was a source of R1a-M417 folks (mostly subclade R1a-Z645).
@Ryan
No according to the posters here we need to find the one singular living person of that epoch which was ancestral to modern West European R1b and that one is meaningless.
I predict G2a/J2 in Maykop.
@andrew
The steady 5% Han percentage across the models is interesting.
Do you suppose that this is a legacy of Silk Road traders? Or could it be mediated by Turkic or Mongolian migrants who had some Han admixture? Or is there any other plausible explanation?
The Han broadly represent East Asian ancestry in this test. I'd say that in the Adygei this is mostly the result of admixture from genetically very diverse late steppe nomads like late Scythians and Turks.
Who is to say that Adygei is representative, and not Chechens or some other population two mountains over which is quite different.
There's a lot of structure in the Caucasus, but this structure shows close correlation with geography, so there's no reason why Chechens from the Northeast Caucasus should represent a Bronze Age population from the Northwest Caucasus. Also, there appears to be some cultural continuity between Maykop and the Adygei.
Analytically, one might expect Maikop to resemble the difference between Steppe hunter-gatherers and the Bronze Age Steppe gene pool. I'm not sure precisely what statistical tools you'd use to do that, but it would seem like a worthwhile thing to attempt.
Armenia_EBA more or less fits the bill as the non-EHG half of Yamnaya. But Maykop is too late to be the source of non-EHG ancestry on the steppe, because Khvalynsk is already well on the way to looking like Yamnaya, and early Yamnaya is already a very stable blend of the components found in Khvalynsk.
@MaxT
Majkop will pretty much turn out to be similar to Armenia Chalcolithic, nothing Yamnaya-like.
I can't get super-tight fits for the Adygei using Armenia Chalcolithic, which makes me think that if a population like this existed in the Northwest Caucasus, then it was replaced by an Armenia_EBA-like population during the EBA, like in Armenia.
But I just updated the post with a fairly decent model featuring Armenia_Chalcolithic.
@For the king
Question to everyone: Weren't the first Kurgan burials found in Maykop?
Repin had Kurgans and it was as old as Maykop. Khvalynsk was older and it had Kurgan-like mounds.
I predict a meltdown when Olympus Mons sees West Eurasia K8 Southern-Tabassaran [elevated R1b] ANE results compared to Adygei ANE results.
http://aboutworldlanguages.com/awl-images/CaucasianLanguageFamilies/images/Ca
Opening up a can of whoop-ass
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=1681484272
@Azarov Dmitry
No doubts Maykop was a source of R1a-M417 folks (mostly subclade R1a-Z645).
Nonsense.
@Romulus
No according to the posters here we need to find the one singular living person of that epoch which was ancestral to modern West European R1b and that one is meaningless.
What we need is an EBA population with a high frequency of L51. This population will be found around the western edge of the Black Sea, not anywhere in Western Europe.
David
Armenia EBA would be too late in time to be the source of Majkop, and itself represents somewhat of a different group to Armenia Chalcolithic
Also, your assumption that Majkop can't be the source of CHG in Yamnaya rests on another assumption- that there is a discontinuity between it and the preceding Mezhoko phase
Haplogroup wise- it could harbour R1s, J, G2 or even L2
@SirWrongAllTheTime
So you're suggesting L51 will be found in CT? I think that's reasonable. They did have absolutely massive populations during their era. Largest on Earth I believe.
I don't think Kura-Araxes (Armenia_EBA) is the source of Maykop. I think they're closely related groups.
And if there is R1 in Maykop, then this will include divergent R1b subclades like the one in Armenia_EBA, or typical steppe subclades like Z2103, but if so then accompanied by steppe admixture.
I can't really see M417 or L51 in Maykop.
So you're suggesting L51 will be found in CT? I think that's reasonable.
Never said that, because it'd be a stupid thing to say.
I will try to create an intrigue in the discussion.
1.Based on craniology, the Maykop series occupied a unique place.
2. Their closest matches are to be found in south-eastern Turkmenistan (Chalcolithic Geoksyur and Kara-depe) and Yamnaya of Ukraine and Orenburg.
3. It is clearly different from southern Caucusus series of Dagestan (Ginchi) and Samtavro (Eastern Georgia) which are both linked to Kura-Araxes culture.
4. There is a common consensus about the participation of steppe groups in Maykop culture formation.
Position of Maykop series among other cultures. (Image 2 P.154)
http://www.archaeology.nsc.ru/ru/publish/journal/doc/2010/411/16.pdf
took a screenshot of that for my future enjoyment, looking forward to the meltdown
Good, you can pin it on your forehead and leave it there after the next big paper comes out.
There's a high coverage Iranian Neolithic sample and a high coverage Caucasus HG sample, and thus this can be checked against Broushaki et al 2016 results based on haplotype variation.
http://science.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/681447/field_highwire_adjunct_files/3/Table_S24.xlsx (subtable III where populations are modeled as ancients+Yoruba&Han)
In short: Chechens and all more western North Caucasus populations (North Ossetians, Adygei etc.) prefer Kotias as their main source population, with varying degrees of European Neolithic and WHG ancestry added, as well as minor Han. Self-copying varies, and probably reflects drift and not unexplainable ancient ancestry in this case. None of them get Iran_N (WC1). The same isn't true for Lezgins of southern Dagestan, who have significant Iran_N, but also get more WHG (as an EHG proxy?) than any other North Caucasus population.
http://www.archaeology.nsc.ru/ru/publish/journal/doc/2010/411/16.pdf
Very interesting indeed. The main conclusions seem drawn on the basis of an analysis of 10 male Maikop culture crania, 4 of which were located in steppe area tombs (Kalmykia). The author considers the latter to be an intrusive population, quite distinct from the local steppe Yamnites. He also suggests that while not yet conclusive, the West Asian origin of these Maykopians is very arguable.
The same isn't true for Lezgins of southern Dagestan, who have significant Iran_N, but also get more WHG (as an EHG proxy?) than any other North Caucasus population.
Yeah, because Lezgins have a lot of EHG, and there's no EHG in the reference panel, they get WHG instead, and then the algorithm has to correct this by giving them a more eastern Neolithic source, in other words Iran_N.
This haplotype methodology is not as precise as you think, because like other methods its outcomes are in large part reliant on the reference panel.
@Davidski Are you confident that the authors of the upcoming paper won't let Indian nationalism get in the way of what their data is?Obviously nothing wrong with being a proud Indian but you hope it wouldn't influence their findings,whatever they discover.
Then we need to resolve why that sort of Iran_Neolithic "balancing" doesn't happen to others, like Chechens who cluster similarly on a PCA and have nearly as much ANE.
If we expand the references, even when using modern Human Origins + ancients panel (table II), which as expected results in populations preferring moderns as donors, Lezgins get a southern extra - 25% Armenian which doesn't appear in Chechens or Kumyks or North Ossetians.
There are Korean researchers involved as well I thought it was only Indians my mistake.
@Al Bundy
The Rakhigarhi samples are being tested by several teams, including from Copenhagen and Harvard. They're all cross checking their results, and will co-author the paper.
So I can't see Indian nationalism tainting the work, although I do expect to see a very diplomatic effort overall, probably one bordering on the ridiculous by my standards, with a variety of theories considered plausible, including Out of India.
I think I even read somewhere that a lab was set up near Rakhigarhi so that presumably the research is closely supervised and the samples stay in India. Pretty funny if true.
With aDNA anything is possible. But just let the researchers work and don't throw garbage all over internet people, please .
Maykop can have J2b2 y dna. The one that was present in LBA Armenia.
Olympos
Bagvalins are a very small pop. With poor sampling You can get any result. In Karafet et el. that 60% of R1b didn't show up.
If we compare the area of Maykop and the area of Yamnaya , which is bigger?.
Yamnaya it seems.
Davidski thanks.
"Just to give some context - Bagvalal and Tindi in Dagestan are over 60% r1b. Its just 120km away from say the heart of Shulaveri (50km from some of their populous sites) and always remembering the abstract of a 2015 paper - "Coevolution of genes and languages and high levels of population structure among the highland populations
of Daghestan""
No offence, mate, but you're a moron. Shulaveri is fucking Southern Georgia. Its separated from Dagestan by huge mountain ridge
thanks to which Georgians and Dagestanis are very different in language and religion
BTW Shulaveri-Shomu could be a candidate for a PK language carrier culture and certainly had nothing to do with IEs
@george
None taken.
I also think you a low IQ Moron. So, actually it shows on all that you write. Its not your fault. Its Dna, and not ancient one.
Sure, that's why I am considered resident clown here
Ops, that's you
@george...go sheep your goats.
@aram
It does not preclude that Yunusbayev 2006 in 28 Bagvalal samples found 70% r1b. So how many Bagvalins did Karafet tested and how many were r1b?
@OM
Interesting paper, thanks.
It would be great to get some of those samples, especially from the most isolated populations (Tsez, Hunzib, Hinnukh) who seem to be like the Kalash of the Eastern Caucasus. They appear quite distinct in the PCA, but I guess it depends on how that PCA is done to know if it's an artifact of their own drift or they're really distinct.
However, note that these populations are very J2. And if it's proposed that they arrived c. 4500-4000 BC, then they fit the bill for what you call "Ophidians", not the SS. They only have 10 Bagvalin samples, 9 of them are J2-M267:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5890-Highland-populations-of-Daghestan
@Alberto
However, note that these populations are very J2. And if it's proposed that they arrived c. 4500-4000 BC, then they fit the bill for what you call "Ophidians", not the SS. They only have 10 Bagvalin samples, 9 of them are J2-M267:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5890-Highland-populations-of-Daghestan
M267 is J1, not J2.
@Onur
Yes, that's right. Thanks for the correction.
@Alberto
It does not change thehe basic premise. Is there a dagestan r1b population? If so where did they come from?
Eastern Europe is just north of Dagestan. You know, where hunter-gatherers with R1b roamed.
Dagestan is also where herders with wagons from the steppe passed through on their way to the Transcaucasus in the mid-3rd M BC according to Kohl. And the actual branch of Z2103 found in Samara Yamnaya can be found there. So it is very easy to explain Dagestani R1b under the steppe model.
Bagwalians are a mighty 10 k (probably even less) people group that has obvious recent founder effects skewing their results. You need to be a special kind of "genius" to make grand claims based on them
George... Bbbbéééé!!!
Nah, sheep are way more intelligent than you, "comrade")
@ Aram
Can not find references in karafet to Bagvalins Ydna. What i find in the suplements is that raw amount of pine green in admix that they (the ND) have and nobody else around for Thousands of km have. What does it mean?
@davidski
Then why north facing dagestan or north caucasus has so litle of it (R1b)?
It looks a clear case of "move along,nothing to see,nothing to see."
@Aram.
And Karafet seems to have completly ignored Bagvalins (n17) all along in their analysis. however she does find that Akhvakh, Ratlub and Tindal have a single origin. And Bagvalins (which until shown otherwise are ND that are 70% r1b of those n28 samples) are very close to them (mostly Tindal).
Anyway, those highly isolated population (amongst the higest in the world), isolated for at least 6500 years have something particular as seem in the Admix supplements.
My opinion, obviously.
@Alberto,
Tsez, Hunzib, Hinnukh have one source. - Akhvakh, Ratlub ,Tindal and bagvalins are a different populations (as per karafet and also this paper that links tindal to same pop as Bagvalins.)
So, screw Tzez and family with their J1 dna- I am talking about Bagvalins (and probably their cousins Akhvakh, Ratlub and Tindis) that until someone shows different are a population of R1b (what subclades?).
So, for 300 years i am pretty sure they could have got it wrong. And there is one reason only why someone does not mix with those guys bellow. they ain't either cousins nor of our stock. So, my Shulaveri? ... who knows.
@OM:
Tindis (n=26) 0%, Ratlub (n=16) 0%, Akhvakh (23) 4% R1b-M269. Bagvalals (n=38 pooled) 50% R1b.
Modest sample sizes and isolated inbred populations = sample bias + drift.
Dagestani speakers (pooled n=939) 12% R1b-M269. Ossetians (n=357) 7%. Iranic and Turkic Northeast Caucasians (n=187) 14%. Nakh (n=755) only 1%. Nogays (n=163) 10%. Mixed Northwest Caucasians (n=1144) 4%, which is the same as modern southern Russians.
@Capra,
It all correct. While dealing with unknown, specially with something in its infancy like adna, is no feat to make error detection by Anterior cingulate cortex...easy and no big feat.
so, all I am saying is.
Dagestan is the reservoir of lots of "remains". Even lowland south dagestan, just miles, way are NOT the same stock as a few miles up hill Bagvalins and Tindal people.
see suplement 2 on https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592092/
If we are talking about the most isolated pops in the world ...What does that Admix 7 tell you about Bagvalins and tindis?
@davidski
Hi Davidski, archaeologically it is a fact that the Ubaid culture is the ancestor of the Kura Araxes(and also the older versions like the Leyla-Tepe and Shulaveri-Shomu cultures) culture. And the Kura Araxes people from the South Caucasus spread their culture(after the Chalcolithic) to North Caucasus, to form a basis of the Maikop Culture. And in time these people partly mixed with the Yamnaya people and also shared/spread their culture into the far North Caucasus.
Davidski, my question to you is: "Is it possible that a part of the root of the Ubaid and the following Kura Araxes people belonged to Y haplogroups L and T, and brought these genetic markers to the Chalcolithic Maikop also", could it be that the origin of the haplogroups L and T lies within these cultures, taking into considerince the Haplogroup L found in the Chalcolithic Armenia Proto-Kura Araxes people(Areni-1)?
@ur coron
As per dna Shulaveri cattle and sheep came from anatolia not local nor from sheeps in northern iran.
Shulaveri grew spelt. Spelt was only seen at those days at vinca culture (not confirmed if earlier than shulaveri) in the balkans...so shulaveri not at all ubaid.
Maybe so tie with Halaf. Maybe. Just maybe. And halaf were the first ones to be overtaken by ubaid in the 6th milenia.
@OM
I have no idea what you are trying to get across with the neurology stuff. It is quite hard to tell what you are suggesting or arguing most of the time.
Bagvalins are not that inbred, less than most Arabs even. In the K=7 analysis they are not too homogeneous, with lots of the yellow Tsezic component and a little of the blue component, kind of like Avars. These ones sampled by Karafet had 9/10 J1* and 1/10 G2a (normal for Andic speakers), the ones from Yunusbayev might be different autosomally but I expect it's just chance.
The most inbred are the Tsezic speakers, who get their own yellow component at K=7, and some of the smallest Andic-speaking groups (Ratlub, Tindal, and Akhvakh), who maximize the dark green component. This is what you expect in an admixture analysis loaded with highly drifted populations. All of these have a large majority of J1*-M267.
If there is any correlation with R1b-L23 it is the widespread blue component.
@Capra,
Neurology would be a long conversation. But cutting short - We analyze 28 living Bagvalins and we expect is change, drift...but find one sample dead 6,000 years ago, have resolution of 3 or 5x and make a world of inferences spanning thousands of years and thousands of miles.
Simple. those 30 Bagvalins tested R1b, isolated for over 6500 years should be tested like crazy, because there is a story in there. Those nakh have story of their own to tell, and it shows in the admix.
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