Outgroups Mota GoyetQ116-1 Kostenki14 Levant_Neolithic MA1 Ust_Ishim Vestonice16 Villabruna Steppe_EMBA X CHG 0.617±0.178 EHG 0.383±0.178 chisq 1.868 taildiff 0.93139015 allsnps: YES Steppe_EMBA Anatolia_ChL 0.139±0.050 CHG 0.356±0.063 EHG 0.505±0.025 chisq 5.084 taildiff 0.405658017In my opinion, despite the relatively low resolution of the X chromosome analysis, the Steppe_EMBA X chromosomes show a strong southern, in particular CHG, character, which suggests that CHG admixture into Steppe_EMBA was mediated largely via female gene flow. Interestingly, in one of the models, the Steppe_EMBA X chromosomes are fitted successfully as a two-way mixture of CHG and Iran_ChL (see here). It's impossible to model Steppe_EMBA in such a way with genome-wide data (for instance, see here and here).allsnps: YES
Friday, March 17, 2017
Yamnaya X chromosomes
In this analysis I'm using the same qpAdm method and almost the same reference samples as Lazaridis & Reich 2017. However, to improve the resolution, in the right pops (or outgroups) I added European Late Upper Paleolithic forager Villabruna, and dropped the low quality Siberian Late Upper Paleolithic forager AfontovaGora3. Also, I ran tests with and without the allsnps: YES flag.
In the left pops, apart from test group Steppe_EMBA (Early Middle Bronze Age steppe conglomerate made up of closely related Afanasievo, Poltavka and Yamnaya samples), we have the putative ancestral populations: Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers (EHG), Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers (CHG), Kura-Araxes (Armenia_EBA), a Chalcolithic Anatolian (Anatolia_ChL), Chalcolithic Armenians (Armenia_ChL), and/or Chalcolithic farmers from Iran (Iran_ChL).
As far as I can tell, these are the best statistical fits with the X chromosome and genome-wide data, respectively. Feel free to set me straight; the full output is in a zip file here.
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91 comments:
This X chromosome stuff has too many caveats and too few error bars.
If you want to see an obvious population/sex bias, look at the Y and mtDNA data.
Unless there are major bottlenecks, X is just a diluted mixed-up version of that haplogroup data.
@Karl_K
I'd say the issue is with most ancient samples having little SNP's to work with in a single chromosome. This will change once we get steppe genomes with Loschbour or Ust-Ishim level quality.
That paper about Sardinian population history is a good example of the method's usefulness, when used on more extensive SNP sets. Sardinian Y-chromosome distribution looks more Neolithic than CEU's if anything (high R1b-V88, I2, G2), I doubt their male-biased ancestry relative to CEU or other continental Europeans would have been detected from uniparentals as solidly as from X-autosome difference with D-stats.
Nope. If it suits Tall, strong, beautiful Steppe males conquering the world than X is just nice, dandy and fine.
Actually its the staggering amount of CHG that is the noted fact - When did it arrive to North Caucasus?
The Anatatolian bit shuns the X chromosome. That means it must been brought by men. Do we have Y-DNA I2 among steppe populations?
Another unrelated thing. The sheet from that recent study on farmers showed that already during the middle neolithic G2 was a minority DNA. Or at least it looks that way. How could I2 have taken over farmers populations which maintained pretty much Anatolian autosomically?
@Shaikorth
I agree that with high quality genome sequences we will be able to say much more about the average ratio of lineages on the x vs the autosome. This is obvious.
However, the interpretation of those numbers is very highly subjective. Many scenerios could be hypothesized that might lead to the same results.
Even a single female introduced from a divergent population could totally mess with the results of a low numbered sample.
The actual inheritance on the X is very stochastic. As a real but unscientific example, I share nearly 100% of my X chromosome with a few 4th cousins I met on 23andme. Often the crossovers in females leave nearly the entire chromosome intact.
@epoch2013: It is difficult to assess just how representative the data from Iberia showing strong prevalence of I2 is. Most of the sampled sites localize in close proximity to the Pyrenees. Perhaps the G:I ratio was higher in the rest of the peninsula and the samples in question are examples of a drifted and/or bottenecked population.
@Karl_K
That's why we need quality Bronze Age samples from around Europe. Now we have just BR2 and Rathlin.
In the Sardinian case it's easier to figure out, as we can look at larger samples. X-chromosomes are Neolithic-shifted around the island and the most likely source for that is the pre-Roman (or pre-Punic? pre-Sea Peoples?) settlement.
@Anthro
It is also quite difficult if not impossible to come up with a plausible scenario where G2 become a less than 10% minority compared to I2, and then I2 feel to similar proportions as well without further lowering G2.
This paper does an interesting analysis along these line:
Ancient X chromosomes reveal contrasting sex bias in Neolithic and Bronze Age Eurasian migrations.
Goldberg A, Günther T, Rosenberg NA, Jakobsson M.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2017 Mar 7;114(10):2657-2662. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1616392114.
PMID: 28223527
@Lee Albee
Check the post just below this one. :)
David ,
Did you try it with Iran EN in the pright too? Using KO1 might help fits, but it will eat up some Anatolian and EHG and potentially Yamnaya. How does it change with Bichon as the pleft? I'll try a few later too.
Off Topic: I am trying to evaluate the haplogroup of an ancient mtDNA sample that was simply classified as "other" in a 2005 paper (actually a chapter in a book form anthology) looking at a sample from the Pacific coast of South America. The raw data points that were used to classify the other samples and to conclude that this one was in the "other" category appears in the paper, but I'm not qualified to evaluate it. Also, since this is a 2005 paper, the number of markers used was very small and the terminology is outdated.
There have been allegations based upon other evidence and based upon unpublished ancient DNA that allegedly exists that this population has pre-Columbian contacts with Asia and the "other" mtDNA sample's classification would help evaluate that claim.
The paper Izumi Shimada, et al., "MtDNA Analysis of Mochica and Sicán Populations of Pre-Hispanic Peru." (2005) is available online in full text (it was uploaded by one of the co-authors) at http://www.academia.edu/400002/MtDNA_Analysis_of_Mochica_and_Sic%C3%A1n_Populations_of_Pre-Hispanic_Peru I
Another paper was published by overlapping authors which uses the same data set in 2004.
http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=anthro_pubs
Here's a zip file with all of the same tests except now with Iran_Neolithic in the right pops.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSmZSaUxrS29IQk0/view?usp=sharing
The outcomes are very similar and the best fits are found in models that show the Steppe_EMBA X chromosomes to be overwhelmingly CHG.
This is in line with most of the southern admixture on the Bronze Age steppe coming with brides from communities on the edge of the steppe in the North Caucasus.
But certainly, the error bars are pretty big, so these results need to be backed up by dense sampling and analyses of ancient uniparental markers from the relevant locations and time periods.
The fact that the Steppe_EMBA X can be modeled as CHG/Iran_ChL without any EHG needed for a good fit is an interesting finding actually. I should have emphasized that more.
I can't reproduce these results when running single autosomes with around the same number of markers as the X (~50K). They always need a lot of EHG for the model to work.
Quick plots from the X2 .zip file, for EHG on X vs EHG on A:
http://i.imgur.com/NfCc3A7.png
For EHG only used positive coefficients >0 1<, because that way it works out as EHG vs (some set of West Asian populations that sum to the rest). Whereas coefficient of negative EHG or > 1 EHG coefficient seemed hard to interpret the meaning of.
(Like if we have a fit that says Steppe_EMBA's X fits as 3.747 EHG -2.747 CHG, then what does that actually mean?)
So for all these fits (positive >0 <1 EHG), autosome is pretty consistent in the 0.5 to 0.6 range for EHG. Then the X fits fall into:
- Non allsnps fits for - (Iran_CHL, EHG), (Iran_CHL,CHG, EHG),(Armenia_CHL, CHG, EHG) : X is about 0.5, similar to A.
- Allsnps fits for - (Iran_CHL, CHG, EHG), (Armenia_EBA, CHG, EHG), (Armenia_CHL, CHG, EHG), (CHG, EHG), (Anatolia_Chl, CHG, EHG): X is less EHG than A, usually to a large degree.
- Allsnps fit for - (Iran_Chl, EHG): X is lower than A.
Above is all a bit regardless of which are better / worse fits though.
In terms of the best way to test, maybe a good way would be to use simulated pseudo admixed individuals (linear combinations of the CHG and EHG data) and then running checks on whether the qpAdm predict the already known proportions (what Reich and Laz did for steppe ancestry and ADMIXTURE in their preprint).
With only about 50K markers, EHG+Iran_ChL approximates CHG. But when CHG is in the left pops, then it gets picked ahead of EHG and Iran_ChL, and the fits improve.
So the Steppe_EMBA X looks mostly CHG. In fact, as per above, to get a good fit EHG isn't even necessary, while on the autosomes, it's impossible to get a good fit without EHG, and that includes runs with single chromosomes with as little as 20K SNPs.
@ Andrew
16209C 16223T 16291T 16324C hg. M
16212G 16233G 16261T 16280G16324A 16399G hg. ?
But we should be sure that there wasn't a contamination of the Japanese researchers:
M7a1a7 C16291T
21. AP008517 KAsq0080(Japanese) Tanaka M7a1a7 16-JUL-2005 A73G A263G 315.1C T489C A750G A1438G T2626C A2706G C2772T T4386C A4769G A4958G 5899.1C C6455T C7028T A8701G A8860G T9540C T9824C G9932A A10398G C10400T T10873C T11017C A11084G G11719A C12705T G12771A A14206C G14364A C14766T T14783C G15043A G15301A A15326G T16209C C16223T C16291T T16324C T16519C
22. AP008734 NDsq0016(Japanese) Tanaka M7a1a7 16-JUL-2005 A73G G228A A263G 315.1C T489C A750G A1438G T2626C A2706G C2772T T4386C A4769G A4958G 5899.1C 5899.2C 5899.3C C6455T C7028T A8701G A8860G A8923G T9540C T9824C A10398G C10400T T10873C T11017C A11084G G11719A C12705T G12771A G14364A C14766T T14783C G15043A T15164C G15301A A15326G T16209C C16223T C16291T T16324C
However, problems caused by the degradation and contamination of the minute quantities of extracted mtDNA and the difficulty of assembling a large number of coherent, well-documented, and dated skeletal remains are pervasive and serious (e.g., Kaestle and Horsburgh 2002, Renfrew 1998, Stone and Stoneking 1999) ( p. 378).
For our study, mtDNA extracted from a single well preserved tooth from each excavated Sica´n burial was analyzed by Shinoda using a combination of restriction fragment-length polymorphism (RFLP) haplotype and D loop sequence methods.
Suspected false positive results stemming from contamination with contemporary DNA (Lawlor et al. 1991) and other questionable data (e.g., Kolman and Tuross 2000) were excluded (for additional details see Shimada et al. n.d.a).
Fifteen of these haplotypes belonged to one of the four haplogroups (A–D) identified thus far among South American aboriginals, but the remaining two did not belong to any of these haplogroups. While we cannot assume that all of the sequences obtained are derived from ancient human remains or reliable, we cannot readily dismiss the two haplotypes in question as inauthentic.5
5.Haplotype5 (burials 10, 13, and 14 in the Huaca Loro West Tomb) may have resulted from exogenous contamination. This haplotype occurs among modern Koreans and Ainus and matches that of Kazuharu Mine, the Japanese physical anthropologist who handled the West Tomb human remains in the course of his osteological examination in 1997. At the same time, various dental morphological studies (e.g., Scott and Turner 1997, Turner 1985, Sutter 2003) suggest that ancient migrants originating in northeastern Asia and characterized by sinodonty (complex root and crown forms and high frequencies of incisor shoveling and double shoveling) populated much of South America, particularly its northwestern portion, and other studies point to a shared genetic basis of Ainus and Amerindians (e.g., Miura et al. 1997). Given that our research into pre-Hispanic Andean population genetic variability and distribution is still in its infancy, it is prudent to remain open-minded on the subject.
@ Andrews
@ German Dziebel
1) It seems just from the first haplotype that the test is highly reliable.
2) It is done about only 200 bps of HVRI, thus it is possible that the second haplotype may belong to some hominide like Denisovans or others, because the mutations are above all very rare, except C16261T, and may have lasted for hundreds of thousands of years.
3) I think that it would merit to deepen the question.
@jv
The word is Caucasus not caucus which means a closed group of people.
Its like like calling America, Amca, or the Colorado as Codo.
@Gioiello Thanks for the suggestions.
1) Better coverage on the X will of course help, but not as much
as one might think. A very real limitation is that
the number of independent
LD blocks on the X is not as large as one might wish.
2) There is (proportionally) much more selection
on the X than the autosomes. A nuisance here.
3) Even if you find a signal with qpAdm, interpretation
may be tricky. You may have
shown sex-bias between left and right,
but more work is needed to show where this
occurred. Maybe for instance CHG formed
with a sex-biased admixture.
I'm not happy with the power of current methods here.
We need new ideas.
@ postneo,
Thank you for your correction. Never been much of a speller.......but I do love ancient hisory! Oh, history!.................so I wonder if mtDNA H6a1 was a Caucasus bride, maybe trade from the Maykop Culture......H13, H8 are Caucasus mtDNA lineages. Or was mtDNA H6a1 already in the Steppes in the Khvalynsk & Repin Cultures speaking P.I.E.....And I will keep on researching, even if I can't spell.
MtDNA H is of North African origin going back >15000years. Kefi et al. Meaning European women are pre-Neolithic and Neolithic. They are NOT the natural mate of R1bM-269. Stop fooling yourselves
@ xyyman
According to this:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3322232/ mtDNA H is not even 13,000 old. And I thought mtDNA H had origins in the Near East or Southwest Asia.
no bro. MtDNA H is first off is older than 20,000 years. Oldest aDNA put it in North Africa. Kefi et al.2014 and 2016. You are reading OLD research. I have always speculated THat mTDNA H is African.
When I read the Pillars research paper....see also
https://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/across-the-pillars-of-hercules-recent-study-confirms-prehistoric-connection-between-iberia-and-north-africa/
And the "middle east" origin is BS by racialist (not racist) researchers. Clearly the Neolithic penetration was across the Medit Sea. via Sardinia and Iberia.
Read up to date studies. All Haplotypes of mtDNA H is found in Africa but there are those NOT found in Europe but found in Europe. That is how IBD works. Europeans did not come via the Levant or Near East. Wake up!!!
LAzaridis et all made it clear the NAtufians are NOT ancestral to Europeans. That means the migration was NOT the Levant or Near East or Anatolia.
CWC and BB has a clear demarcation with a Central source in the Sahara. Read and understand. Hit me up if you have anymore questions.
And for the record. Africans carry MORE derived haplotypes alleles for SLC24A5. Meaning the white genes also arrived with the Neolithics.
Get a life and read and accept the facts.
*but found in Africa
European women are decedents of African Neolithics and pre-Neolithics. And these "expert" geneticist knows this. The "near East' is a smoke screen because they hate admitting to being African..
Quote:
But in addition to those legendary military campaigns, countless unsung migrants have also crossed between the two continents via the so-called “Pillars of Hercules.” In fact, archaeologists have long speculated that people have been moving across the Strait – in both directions – for thousands of years. Recently, genetics has also supported a prehistoric connection between the two continents.
Though most scientists who study North African genetics have focused their attention on connections to the Near East, recent studies have shown that the majority of North African genetic types, or haplogroups, suggest European ancestry. The most recent evidence comes from a team of geneticists on both sides of the Mediterranean who collected samples from from more than 300 people living throughout Tunisia and analyzed their mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). Passed directly by mothers to their offspring, mtDNA traces ancestry back thousands of years along an exclusively maternal line
Read more at https://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/across-the-pillars-of-hercules-recent-study-confirms-prehistoric-connection-between-iberia-and-north-africa/#E560QabWR8jxzxh8.99?
The pattern is clear to see. There is clear bifurcation between R1b and R1a...siblings. Also the Eastern and Western branch of R1b-M269. This is not rocket science. Only delusionist will ignore the undeniable evidence kicking them in the face and think otherwise,,...lol!
@ xyyman
I might agree with you that people during Paleolitic and Mesolitic went and come from Northern Africa and Southern Europe and from Southern Europe and Northern Africa, but don't you think that for proving what you say we should find some aDNA in Northern Africa which demonstrated that?
And about Y hg. R1b1, where are your samples older than Villabruna (14000 years ago) and of the R-V88 in Iberia of 7100 years ago?
Where are your samples like these?
R-V88 Z30230/Y7770 * V88/PF6279 * PF6332+59 SNPs15400 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 13400 10200 ybp" class="age"formed 17100 ybp, TMRCA 11700 ybp
R-V88*
⦁ id:YF07201 [ITALY and UK]
R-M18 PF6372 * PF6319 * YP5453+34 SNPs
⦁ id:ERS256975ITA [IT-CA]
⦁ id:ERS256965ITA [IT-CA]
R-Y7777 SK2065/FGC21014/Y7777 * Y7768 * FGC21018/Y8460+10 SNPs10200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 11000 8200 ybp" class="age"formed 11700 ybp, TMRCA 9600 ybp
R-Y7777*
⦁ id:YF07902 GBR [and ITALY and France]
R-Y8451 FGC20993/Y7786 * FGC21063/Y7784 * FGC21033/Y8445+15 SNPs8200 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 8900 6400 ybp" class="age"formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 7600 ybp
R-Y8451*
R-V35 V35
⦁ id:ERS256961ITA [IT-CA]
The R-V88 in Iberia (7100 YBP) very likely with the migration from Italy Zilhao spoke about.
I think that your discourse is more reliable about E-L19 or E-M81, where we have old samples both in Northern Africa and Southern Europe.
no. ADNA is sparse in Africa because Europeans are focused on...Europeans. That is understandable. Europeans want to know where they came from. R-V88 is the clue to the origin of R1b-M269. The origin of mtDNA has been resolved. Read Kefi et al 2014, 2016. European female lineage is clearly African and NOT from the near East. Why? Haplotypes of BOTH Near East and Southern European is found in North Africa. However haplotypes of the Near East is NOT found in Europe. In addition haplotypes of found in North Africa is NOT found in either Near East and Europe. Get the picture? Do anyone here understand the implication? SMH. Continue believing you own...bs.
The same pattern is observed for the modern male line. Obviously the male line R1b-M269 entered much later and is NOT the natural mate of mtDNA-H. As I said Villabruna is BLACK because he carried all ancestral SNPs for pigmentation. He probably had blue eyes. Meaning blues eyes and white skin do NOT go to together. These were HG of Europe were people with black skin and probably light eyes. go figure. The interesting thing is YRI carry more diversity around the locus for skin pigmentation than loshbour and modern Europeans, meaning? As MArk Shriver and Heather Norton concluded. the presence or capability for light skin was in Africa BEFORE OOA(the second). Why don't you people read more scientific papers and give up the male ONLY migration BS from the Steppes. And try to understand what really happened in pre-historic time. This is not rocket science. . George Busby et al showed that there is no longitudinal cline for R1b-M269. Meaning? There was never a migration from the Steppes. And could not be male only. White males riding in on horse back from the Steppes on Chariots is Hollywood comic book nonsense.
Some of you are really into fantasy. It has nothing to do with AfroCentricty. If I say Neanderthal is black it is because he was black. I am a realist.
This nonsense all over the web about red, hair Neanderthal with pale skin is fantasy. Why.
The pigmentation of Neanderthal and Denisovan is known.
Read: Predicting Homo Pigmentation Phenotype Through GenomicData: From Neanderthal to James Watson. The paper clearly made it known what the pigmentation these ancient humanoids were.
Obvious ancient humanoids and Europeans were black going back 5000bc and beyond.
As I said expand you knowledge and act intelligent..accept the FACTS.
One may add that the question of WHEN and HOW de-pigmentation became inherritcal is far from solved.
Nor are the basic questions of how this biome is reflected and geared within the genetic material. There's still a lot of work to do before we can adress these questions with certainity - and define what xy-man presents as "facts".
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24916375
The FACTS are. There are specific (genes)SNPs that used to determine human skin pigmentation. eg OCA2, SLC24A5 rs**654?, SLC45A2, MC1R, etc. Evidently the effect if cumulative Shriver et al. It is not ONE derived SNP. In other the words the more derived the BLACKER. lol! LA Brana is black. You can't get blacker than La Brana. A pitch black man with blue eyes. lol! Go figure. These are FACTS. Same goes for Neanderthals. end of story. Africans carry ALL variations and the most diverse at these loci. Meaning Europeans are depigmented Africans. Selective sweep taking place in the last 4-6000years. Neanderthal who origin is in Africa , YES AFRICA, research it, remained BLACK for 300,000years while in Europe. A high latitude region. These is why researchers are question does the environment cause or the mutation existing in the environment is just luck of the draw. Because the black skinned huntergathers had light eyes.
So, an intelligent question to ask is ...what really happened in the past, instead the trip down fantasy lane about Steppe nomads (male only. lol!)that never existed.
I don't care about skin color. It's just a small detail based on a few genes.
What matters is the overall genetic structure, and even the blackest European Hunter-Gatherers were Eurasians and Europeans.
They were not Africans.
Unfortunately Kefi 2016 isn't for free, but I agree with that, even though the descendants of the Iberomaurusians in Northern Africa aren't more than 3% to-day. I posted a pic of my mother, saying that she belonged to this population of Italy. My mother and me are mt K1a1b1e, surely born in Tuscany.
"The Western North African population was characterized by the presence of Iberomaurusian civilization at the Epiplaeolithic period (around 20,000 years before present (YBP) to 10,000 YBP). The origin of this population is still not clear: they may come from Europe, Near East, sub-Saharan Africa or they could have evolved in situ in North Africa. With the aim to contribute to a better knowledge of the settlement of North Africa we analysed the mitochondrial DNA extracted from Iberomaurusian skeletons exhumed from the archaeological site of Afalou (AFA) (15,000-11,000 YBP) in Algeria and from the archaeological site of Taforalt (TAF) (23,000-10,800 YBP) in Morocco. Then, we carried out a phylogenetic analysis relating these Iberomaurusians to 61 current Mediterranean populations. The genetic structure of TAF and AFA specimens contains only North African and Eurasian maternal lineages. These finding demonstrate the presence of these haplotypes in North Africa from at least 20,000 YBP. The very low contribution of a Sub-Saharan African haplotype in the Iberomaurusian samples is confirmed. We also highlighted the existence of genetic flows between Southern and Northern coast of the Mediterranean".
I frequently asked myself in the past when words like these may have entered my country and other Mediterranean ones. Already Alfredo Trombetti, Elementi di glottologia, 1923, p. 126: a) Basco barro einjäriges männl. Schaf - Valtellina barro capro, bar ariete, montone, Milan. Bera pecora, Canav. Berro, Provenzale mod. berro montone, Albanese ber pecora, ecc. c) Georg. Eχbari montone, put these words as belonging to an old Mediterranean substrate, a possible link with these Mediterranean peoples of the Southern and Northern shores. I wandered how that word might have reached Arab of Sicily from where very likely the word "ebejjer" (sheep one year old) might be maintained in the Maltese surname Ebeyer, possibly a descendant R-L23-Z2015 of a Sicilian converted to Islam and migrated to Malta. Someone could think to an origin in Northern Africa, thus giving reason to what xyyman said. But this word is also in Albanian and have an Indo-European explication:
berr 'sheep, goat' <Early Proto Albanian *barwa: Old Nordish borgr 'hog' Old High German barug, baruh id. Slav *borvъ.
For a possible link with Berber languages I’d have thought to Sardinian thiligelta, thiligugu, etc., even though in thiligelta *ligelta seems linked with Latin lacerta...
"What matters is the overall genetic structure, and even the blackest European Hunter-Gatherers were Eurasians and Europeans.
They were not Africans"
how naïve can you be? Tsk! Tsk! Stupid response.
A Nigerian born in Scandinavia is European? right? SMH. Logic of a 2year old? What about 4 generations later? THAT would make him European. What are you a two year old? Ask another way. What is a "European"?. Waste of my time.
@Gieoello
"Unfortunately Kefi 2016 isn't for free, but I agree with that, even though the descendants of the Iberomaurusians in Northern Africa aren't more than 3% to-day. I posted a pic of my mother, saying that she belonged to this population of Italy. My mother and me are mt K1a1b1e, surely born in Tuscany."
While lurking I thought you were one of the MORE scientific. And capable of more abstract thought.
That comment above cast doubt.
First off There was NEVER any back migration FROM Europe to Africa per Achilli and Toronni. Why? MtDNA - H haplotypes found in Europe is a sub-set of North Africa NOT the other way around. And the aDNA of R1b of North Africa begins to be analyzed the same pattern will be observed. We all know that R-V88 has higher diversity in Africa compared to Europe. This is another FACT.
Give it up.
If you need it I can get you Kefi's paper. All of them. That is not an excuse. Stop it!!!!!
The autosomal DNA is what he's referring to. European hunters weren't African and neither are the Onge. Skin color isn't as important as you make it out to be. Perhaps, instead of fixating on skin color, you should actually look at the genome as a whole.
@ xyyman
"If you need it I can get you Kefi's paper. All of them".
I read and study all what is published and I may get it. Thus if you send me the Supplements with the mt-s tested, I thank you. I got the other supplements for free. My address is: gioiellotgnn06@gmail.com.
Of course I'd be glad to read the paper too.
You know that I don't like who uses nicknames. I prefer people with a name, a surname, an Y and an mt tested and published.
I am R1b1a2-L23-Z2110, K1a1b1e.
@xyyman
A Nigerian born in Sweden won't have European genome-wide structure. He'll still have a West African genome.
A fourth generation descendant of Nigerian migrants born in Sweden won't have European genome-wide structure. He'll still have a West African genome.
@ xyyman
"You know that I don't like who uses nicknames. I prefer people with a name, a surname, an Y and an mt tested and published".
But I forgot that you have 2 Y. Thus publish at least one of them!
@ xyyyyyman
"We all know that R-V88 has higher diversity in Africa compared to Europe. This is another FACT".
You are ridiculous. I knew another Berber nationalist, Ya Kem, but he was more polite than you, less that he uses here his real heart. What you say about R-V88 is stupid. Show me an African or Middle Eastern sample which is older than 5000 years as to its origin through its SNPs in the YFull tree. Variance doesn't mean anything, because it is due also to frequency and the number of meioses, and R-V88 has in Africa an higher frequency than in Italy, but Italy has all the oldest samples that Africa hasn't and of course African samples derived from the European ones.
Quote:
"Blogger Davidski said... @xyyman. A Nigerian born in Sweden won't have European genome-wide structure. He'll still have a West African genome. A fourth generation descendant of Nigerian migrants born in Sweden won't have European genome-wide structure. He'll still have a West African genome."
I heard about your blog and decided to take a look. And I am surprised at the slow thinker you are. Very dogmatic. WT..don't you get the point? What the ...is an "European". At K2 (Eurasian - autosomal) is found from the tip of the Cape to Morocco/Tunisia/Levant. DON"T YOU KNOW THAT? That means there is no such thing as "Eurasian" autosomal DNA. WT..I am wasting my time talk to the "leader" of this forum and he doesn't understand the basics? Even at K3 Nigerians carry DNA found in Europe. Do you get that. Anyone of you?
QUOTE:" Blogger Chad Rohlfsen said...The autosomal DNA is what he's referring to. European hunters weren't African and neither are the Onge. Skin color isn't as important as you make it out to be. Perhaps, instead of fixating on skin color, you should actually look at the genome as a whole."
Another slow dogmatic thinker. I am not saying European Hunter Gatherers are modern day Africans. I am saying La Brana and KOS14 and the like are part of the first meta-population that left Africa. The closest modern population to WHG/EHG are the Onge and Dravidians of India. Bottom-line WHG genetic material is also found IN Africa. Sources cited. But they are "black", like Africans and Onge, Dravidians etc. That why mtDNA M will be found in Europe prior to 20,000years ago. Hold up! Wait! This has been proven already. Lol! Come on people. This is too easy. Just as Fulanis carry ancestral mtDNA U5 and Rb1-M269 . Modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. Listen if you guys want to bury your heads in the sand and continue having pipe dreams I will shut up. Because you are NOT interested in the truth. I am hear to open your eyes to the truth. If you want lies continue listen to the other dogmatic people on here.
BTW - Modern geopolitics are messing with heads. Not All Africans are "black". You do know that? Don't you?
Blogger Gioiello said..."@ xyyyyyman "We all know that R-V88 has higher diversity in Africa compared to Europe. This is another FACT".
You are ridiculous. I knew another Berber nationalist, Ya Kem, but he was more polite than you, less that he uses here his real heart. What you say about R-V88 is stupid. Show me an African or Middle Eastern sample which is older than 5000 years as to its origin through its SNPs in the YFull tree. Variance doesn't mean anything, because it is due also to frequency and the number of meioses, and R-V88 has in Africa an higher frequency than in Italy, but Italy has all the oldest samples that Africa hasn't and of course African samples derived from the European ones."
First off while lurking I thought you were one of the more intelligent poster along with Romoleus dude. What you just posted there shows me you may be full of it. That is a strawman argument. "show me in YFull Tree"? Really? That childish ploy. Lol! First off , Africans are light years behind when it comes to both aDNA and extant population testing compared to Europeans. So just because a gene etc is NOT currently observed in Africa don't mean...sht. You need to compare apples and apples. First grade logic. Africa has the highest frequency AND the highest diversity than Europeans(R-V88). That Cruciani paper on R-V88 back-migration has been debunked. You do know that? Want to send you the link for that paper also. SMH. Someone told me you guys knew what you were talking about now I know better. SMH.
To those interested in the truth and not dogma. Here is a few papers to get you started. I post on other websites. Hit me up I will answer all your questions without prejudice.
---
1. Phylogeny and Genetic Structure of Tunisians and Their Position Within Mediterranean Populations -R Kefi et al. 2014
2. On the Origin of Iberomaurusians: New Data Based on Ancient Mitochondrial DNA and Phylogenetic Analysis of Afalou and Taforalt Populations
R Kefi et al
3. The Iberomaurusian Enigma: North African Progenitor or Dead End? -
JD Irish. J
@ xy(n)man
From www.worldfamilies.net Maliclavelli [Gioiello Tognoni] on January 09, 2010, 02:42:03 PM
"Please, read carefully the paper of Cruciani. This is a mail I sent to a few friends and after to Vizachero on “Dienekes blog”. And note how Vizachero is changing his calculation of the TMRCA: “Dal giorno alla notte (From day to night)” we say in Italy.
“It is very important what you are saying. Then I send to you all a message of a few minutes ago for my few friends:
"Sam, this paper demonstrates that: only in Italy has been found 3 R1b1*, the ancestors of all ardms (your R1b1 will become either R1b1a* (V88) or R1b1a3* (V35) or R1b1a3a (V7)). It will be unlikly you'll be R1b1a2 (V8) or R1b1a4 (V69), found only among Africans, except you derive from some North African converted to Judaism. Italy has 1 R-V35 and 1 R-V7, then it has probably some R-V88. Italy has (in Corsica, who are Italians, and in Sardinia) R1b1a1 (M18). Italy has R-M73, even though they are more diffused in Asia, but they could be emigrated there from Europe with Tocharians. Italy has R/L23-, R/L23+/L150- (the only one in the world so far), R/L23+/L150+ (me, for instance) and all asvab, except the most recent ones, like R-153, R-M167, and a very few (one: Argiedude) R-L21. Do you need other proofs?".
I can add for you that, this said, probably these aicp and subclades found in Africa have come from Italy, then from North via sea. If you watch carefully the Cruciani’s maps, there are two centers of diffusion: one from cahsee and one from North Cameroon where this people retired after Sahara dried. Then not an expansion from East, but from North, and North of the Libya there is Italy".
"What will you say when it will be demonstrated that R1b was present in Italy before the Younger Dryas and from it derived all the subclades?"
And these are the letters I exchanged with Cruciani and Scozzari:
"I don't think I am doing anything unsuitable in publishing this letter of Prof. Fulvio Cruciani which is the response to the first two posts of this thread sent to one of his colleagues, Prof. Rosaria Scozzari.
This isn’t in recognition of me, but of everyone of us who has something to say on this matter, who did exams at his own expense putting the results at everybody’s disposal. Prof. Cruciani (and his colleagues) is one of the most esteemed researcher worldwide, and not like many others who either for ideology or other have written papers that I, but others too, have enjoyed myself to dissect and practically to thwart. His V-series has given fundamental contributions to deepen the origin of many haplogroups, above all E and R, because he practises the science, and this science (like every other one) is made by proofs, in this case by new fundamental SNPs. After there are the interpretations, and for this it isn’t said that the specialist is advantaged. Who of us knows a dozen of languages (ancient and modern ones), has cultivated Glottology, History, Geography and many other disciplines perhaps he too has something to say.
Caro Gioiello,
Rosaria Scozzari mi ha girato la sua email.
I vari post sui blog di antropologia rappresentano per noi una ricca fonte di informazioni su cui riflettere.
Circa le tue ipotesi riportate in questa mail, non mi sento né di contraddirle, ne di appoggiarle, ma le terrò in considerazione.
Spero che in futuro si arrivi ad una comprensione più chiara del nostro passato attraverso gli studi sulla diversità genetica.
Cordiali saluti
Fulvio Cruciani
Fulvio Cruciani, PhD
Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie "Charles Darwin"
Sapienza Università di Roma
P.le Aldo Moro 5
00185 Rome, Italy
(…)
(Dear Gioiello,
Rosaria Scozzari forwarded to me your email.
Many posts on anthropology blogs are for us a rich source of information to be minded.
Re. your hypotheses reported in your mail, I don’t feel either to contradict them or to support, but I’ll take them in consideration.
Hope that in the future we’ll be able to reach a clearer understanding of our past by studies on genetic diversity.
Kind Regards,
Fulvio Cruciani)
From Worldfamilies, thread: That E1b1b1a from the Italian refugium, January 20, 2011, 08:30:24 AM "
Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link Alessandro Achilli,1 Chiara Rengo
Quote: "However, subhaplogroup U5 provided a rather intriguing result. A Yakut from northeastern Siberia (27 in fig. 1) and a Fulbe
from Senegal (29 in fig. 1) harbored mtDNAs that differed at only two coding-region nucleotide positions."
--
You also do know that West Africans sub-clades of U6 that is unique to them? Significance? Tic! Toc! Most of you don't know what you are talking about. And the few that know are fearful to say it. Because of the wrath they may face from their fellow "delusionist".
@ xyyman
We are all open minded and followers of the scientific method. We study all the researches and of course people went and came from everywhere also in the past. In spite that everyone said that mt U6 was "Northern African" and come from "Middle East", the oldest sample found so far is in Europe:
"Romania Peştera Muierilor [Muierii2] F 33,760-32,840 cal BP 98,618 U6 Hervella 2016; Fu 2016
It does matter what Cruciani wrote. They all have their prejudices even when they "may" be unaware of it(sic). Cruciani R-V88 back-migration theory has been debunked by.... Just as the Ice Age Refugia Theory is nonsense. Per Achilli. These guys are old school. The aDNA evidence is proving them wrong. Eg We now know that the Basque are NOT the progenitor of R1b which Achilli proclaimed about 20years ago. We know modern Europeans are primarily Basal Eurasian/EEF. They do NOT have a Paleolithic presence in Europe.
It does NOT matter with Tuscany heritage you CURRENTLY test as. Eg we know that modern Tuscans are NOT closely related to the Etruscans as formerly believed. Babujani et al. They would like to think they are. Lol! Delusional people they are.
Same delusion as Steppes nomads. Lol!
Furthermore you said you are well read. Did you read Lancaster's response to Cruciani? You do know that Cruciani then backed-off his nonsensical R1b-V88 back-migration theory? Miguel Gonzalez et al - The genetic Landscape of EG and the origin of R-V88?
Am I wasting my time talking to you? Are you like the others ....dogmatic?
Original Research Article Over the Sands and Far Away: Interpreting an Iberian Mitochondrial Lineage with Ancient Western African Origins -
ANTONIO F. PARDI~ NAS,1
Quote: ", the oldest sample found so far is in Europe" really?
Is THAT your argument for stating that U has European origin? Another strawman argument? Compare apples and apples ..bro. That is like saying the oldest auto has been found in Cuba therefore Cuba invented the car. What type of argument is that. You are NOT very scientific. You need aDNA from Africa around the same period THEN Compare the two regions. The oldest mtDNA H has been dated IN Africa circa >20,000years. Kefi et al. I believe a few mtDNA U was in that analysis also. The mtDNA U found in Europe was very basal. EXACTLY where it should be. You do understand why it is basal and not a downstream clade? Come on man. You are grasping at straws. Lol!. If you don't have aDNA then you look at the diversity/PhyloTree on extant population and draw conclusions.
Clearly R-V88 is of African origin. The question is, is R1b-M269 also of African origin? The incoming evidence is ....yes!! the follow-up question is why the sudden dominance of this lineage. This is the question an intelligent person would ask. Was it through selection. Female dominated ancient societies?
To those who don't know R1b-M269 (not only R-V88) is found thoughout Africa. From West Africa to East Africa(Tanzania). If I am a betting man I would say the Tanzanian R1b-M269 is the Eastern version. Time and testing will tell. Evidently the bifurcation took place in the Sahara. If I am a betting man also my money is that the R1b-M269 found in the Cape Verde West Africa is OLDER/more Diverse than found in West Europe. Tic! Toc!
@ xyyman
"If I am a betting man also my money is that the R1b-M269 found in the Cape Verde West Africa is OLDER/more Diverse than found in West Europe. Tic! Toc!"
You are ridiculous! For finding the R-M269 at Capo Verde ask the Portuguese men who fucked their mothers!
Hey man no need to throw a hissy-fit. We are having a civil and "intelligent" discourse as you put it. Have you read any of Sandra Beleza papers on Cape Verde? Eg The Admixture Structure and Genetic Variation of the Archipelago of Cape Verde and Its Implications for Admixture Mapping Studies - Sandra Belez. Or Are discussing above your pay grade? Lol!. Do you know that the genetic profile of the Cape Verdians is NOT SSA? Instead of throwing a temper tantrum expand your mind and read....and understand. In other words there is very little proof any fugking was taking place. Do you know that R1b-M269 was in pre-historic Africa(Canary Islands) before the "Spaniards" appeared and started fugking as you put it? To those who are not geographically challenge will understand my point. The Canary Islands is just off the coast of Western Africa. At very low latitude. So where did you think the R1b-m269 from pre-historic Canary Islands came from? Spain over 1000miles away or Africa 100miles away? I know what the Steppe group would answer. They came from the Kurgans of Asia 4000miles away. Delusionist!
Man, you are talking to someone above your pay grade! Lol! Carry on with you BS.
Modern Europeans are depigmented Africans. Ancient Europeans are pigmented Africans. And don't get me started on LD and OCA2. Lol! Delusional group.
@ xyyman
Perhaps if you search in African Americans and Caribbeans and all Southern Americans and also many Native American tribes of Northern America you may find hundreds of millions of R1b also in people black as you or even more for supporting your theory that my R1b1a2-L23-Z2110 haplogroup comes from black Africa. You may find also my origin in Africa: my Ysearch ID is KV7Y2, my FTDNA account is H1614, my YFull ID is YF02873. If you need my about 90 private mutations I may send them to you on demand.
P.S. R1b1 from Canary Islands isn't so old and people run the seas from thousands of years. Italian agriculturalists 7500 years ago as Zilhao demonstrated, but long before many other peoples all over the world.
^^ now have really gone off the reservation. lol! SMH.
here is your Black Italian. lol! I don't argue hypotheticals. reallY I don't it will be circular argument.
==
Yes continue the comic book fantasy
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The Late Upper Paleolithic skeleton Villabruna 1 (Italy): a source of data on biology and behavior of a 14.000 year-old hunter -Giuseppe Vercellotti1
Summary - The Late Upper Paleolithic burial Villabruna 1 (Val Cismon, Belluno, Italy), directly dated to about 14,000 years ago (calibrated chronology), includes a well preserved skeleton accompanied by grave
goods and covered with painted stones. The skeleton belongs to an adult male, about twenty-five years old, characterized by a relatively tall stature for the time period, ***short trunk and more linear body proportions than
its contemporaries, similar to those of recent North-African populations****. Multivariate statistical analysis of craniofacial characteristics place Villabruna 1 close to Le Bichon 1, a geographically and chronologically nearby
specimen, suggesting genetic affinity among the last hunter and gatherers from the alpine region.
To the newbies and anyone who wants to get at the truth. What did I just post above? Villabruna was North African. He had tropical body proportion. Genetics showed he had black skin. So in other words Villabruna was a black African carrying R1b. This was not Cold Adapted individual who was trying to back-migrate to Africa. lol! Continue the fantasy about men riding chariots and riding horses coming in from the deep Steppes of Asia to take local women. Only a nerd will believe such BS.
Yes continue the comic book fantasy
Quote: "Perhaps if you search in African Americans and Caribbeans and all Southern Americans and also many Native American tribes of Northern America you may find hundreds of millions of R1b also in people black as you..ramble! ramble! Ramble!."
Lol! You people are so emotional. I give you the FACTS and you get annoyed because it doesn't fit your "belief" system. Sign of a...you know what. What good asking a Caribbean person or African American what they are mixed with? There are some people who still believe the earth is flat. Should I go ask them about their ancestry? There is a script they follow. Don't you get that?
You and no one has and can disprove anything I post on. None!
African Albino+Black African = Either Albino or Black children.
White European+Black African = Cremelo Children.
Why does an African Albino Mix with Black Women not create a Cremelo ? Go think about it and read actual Scientific papers......
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! as I said, Can't disprove ANYTHING I said. GTFOH! lol!
"we wuz"?? SMH No come intelligent come back? You think an epiphet bothers me? Fool!
Stern "read actual Scientific papers......"
Ha! hA! In case you missed it. I am citing ACTUAL Scientific papers. You people are all smoke and mirrors. pig in shyte
To those missing the salient point. Gieollieo is stating that Black people are indigenous to Villabruna Italy. So the Indigenous population of Villabruna Italy in 12,000BC is this black African carrying R1b. You can’t make this stuff up!. Did let me get in the way. Carry on with the Steppe hypothesis nonsense.
Villabruna clusters with Europeans on a global genetic plot, not Africans.
@ Davidski – what are you…a….? Villabruna is a tropical man with Black skin. What don’t you understand about that? Am I wrong? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Pig in shyte!
@Salden. You are letting emotions get the best of you and not thinking rationally. First off if you don’t know it and is geographically challenged. You have never left the Appalachians I willlet you in on a little secret. Sardinia is of fthe coast of Africa, Italy is next to Sardinia. Who said any about SSA? Dyck!
@Gioiello. My bad about the spelling of your name. But you started it with variations of my “name”. “Do unto others……”
You may be slow Salden. I will will help you out on my point. Bringing SSA is a strawman. Do you know a strawman is? Gioiello or Davidski may be able to explain it to you. But I will do you one better. Have anyone of you read and fully understood Lazaridis 2014 landmark paper?. Do you know what he meant by he could not disentangle YRI from Basal Eurasian? Tic! Tic! Tic! Lol! You people are clueless.
Do you know what a downstream and or upstream clad is ? Wrap that AOO around that first...
^Instead of cry to your-self. Prove what I am saying is wrong. You people are full of it! Do you want the truth? In the words of my man “Can you handle the truth”? Do you want to feel safe behind the Steppes wall? Lol! You know the FACTS don’t you. Anyone read Sergi or Coon? Are they Afro-Centrics. Sergi is being proven correct modern Europeans are primarily Africans from the Great Lakes who lost their pigmentation. Don’t believe me? Do a deep dive on the origin of the Neolithics. Clown! Prove what I am saying is incorrect. YOU CAN NOT!!!!!!!! You are out your league!
Again I repeat. Prove me wrong on ANY one point?!
1. Villabruna was black skinned
2. Morphologically Villabruna was closest match to Africans across the Medit Sea
3. Villabruna had TROPICAL body proportions?
4. Villabruna carried R1b
I think this blog would be more useful if there was less extreme rudeness.
Maybe it has to be moderated.
I find things here that are interesting sometimes, but I can't wade through
multiple rude and ignorant comments.
Nick
To those who don’t get it. There is no such thing as Eurasian/Non-African Admixture! There never was and never will be. @ K2 “non-African”/Eurasian is found in Africans from the Cape of South Africa to the tip of Morocco or Tunisia and the Suez. “Non-African” SNP is ALSO of African origin that is why it is found all throughout Africa. It is called Isolation by Distance or Genetic Surfing. Understand that! No, modern Europeans are depigmented Africans.
Ric- “Do you know what a downstream and or upstream clad is ?”
No, Ric explain it to me(sic). I can tell you are proud you know what it is. I reference all these research papers and you come back with “Do you know what a downstream and or upstream clad is ? Sure sign of a slow thinker. Like a 2yo proud he knows how to count from 1-10. Deserves a cookie. Lol! SMH.
Come on Ric. Explain upstream/downstream clades to me and the readers. Lol! Fool yourself…again. I am an ignoramous person and I have no idea what I am talking about(sic)
Reading this blog is kind of like walking down a pleasant street having an interesting conversation, but at intervals a crazy person smelling of urine comes up and starts shouting about how the Pope is mind-controlling you on behalf of the Jewish bankers. :P
@ xyyman
"I am an ignoramous person"
Only a French speaking could write so Latin ignoramus. So we know who you are...
@Capra “Reading this blog is kind of like walking down a pleasant street having an interesting conversation, but at intervals a crazy person smelling of urine comes up and starts shouting about how the Pope is mind-controlling you on behalf of the Jewish bankers.”
You don’t get points for calling me names and epithets. Lol! YOU or ANYONE on here can prove me wrong. None of you! Why is that? Lol! Fools! “You want me off this wall”?. Just say so. I don’t need or have to be here. If you don’t want to hear the truth bury your head in the sand and ask me to leave. Fools! You want to believe the in pipe dreams? This is not a discussion forum this is an orgy. Everyone stroking each other to get off. Lol!
@Gioiello – What does it matter who I am. Can you debunk anything I just said. Or you want to live in a fool’s paradise ? You know, “Villabruna was white, had a modern Europe body plan”, etc hit me up if you want to know the truth.
@ xyyman
I don't want that anyone is banned, being I the most banned. I think that everyone has the right to express his opinions.
I am not sure that the "capra" was alluding to you. The origin matters.
@xyyman
Frankly, I can't even tell what arguments you are trying to make. You just sort of showed up and launched into hostile, incoherent rambling strewn with unconnected facts and assertions. Also, you seem to think you are on Stormfront or something, and that we will be terribly distressed by having ancestors with dark skin and/or from Africa?
Maybe you could try assembling a coherent argument, with an explanation of how the facts lead to your conclusions, for instance when and where people were migrating.
Maybe you are in the wrong forum? Because many who responded know what I am talking about. Ask Davidski ……your leader…he responded. Lol! Smoke and mirrors man are you?
@Capra :
As usual you are seeing things that is not there. I never used any racial epithets because there is no such thing as race. Everyone is an African…so to speak. Babujani et al I never used Negroid or Caucasoid etc. So Storm Front? Really? I am using purely scientific terms. Also geographic and linear terms. Modern, Ancient, Europe, Africa, Black etc. Maybe white and black is the incorrect term since no one is actually black or white. I use in political terms or “coloration “close to” terms.
I'll be sure to ask my 'leader' to translate at the next secret cabal meeting. :P
I didn't get the memo. Gotta go and dry clean my pointy hat.
Hopefully I can still get a hotel reservation.
@xxyman - "There is no such thing as Eurasian/Non-African Admixture! There never was and never will be."
This is a rather specious argument. I could equally argue that there's no African admixture because primates first evolved in Laurasia (ie Eurasia + North America). This isn't a blog about semantics so I don't think you'll find many folks here interested in that kind of nonsense. Modern sub-Saharan Africans have some ancestry from groups closely related to and ultimately originating in Eurasians / North Africans. The reverse is true too.
We are all out of Africa originally! I'm interested in my ancient Grandmothers migrations because my recent Grandmother (ggg Grandmother) left northern Bavaria in 1850 for Iowa. I want to know my ancient heritage! Her line was in Mesolithic Eastern Europe and I enjoy researching the Cultures associated before and after that time. And yes, my Grandmothers were in the Steppes for awhile. And I find that interesting because I speak an Indo-European language! English, that still retains perhaps some Neolithic loan words(Proto-Germanic) My line is: L3, N, R, RO, HV, H, H6, H6a,H6a1,H6a1a,H6a1a2,H6a1a2b,H6a1a2b1. Each woman lived in a different place and I enjoy researching this lineage.(@ xyyman, I'm not a bro!)
All I see here is a "Wannabe Alpha Male Syndrome". A young Male ignorantly charging into a clearing (where everyone was quietly,peacefully chewing their cud), and try to challenge the Old Silverback.I know there is very little chance in trying to debate the issues when a person is hormone and propaganda driven. It mostly turns out as something similar to a religious debate which at the end of the day turns out fruitless.
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