Wednesday, January 27, 2021
The great shift
Here's a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) featuring some of the ancients from the recent Saag et al. paper at Science Advances. To see an interactive version of the plot paste the Global25 coordinates here into the relevant field here.
Note that the Fatyanovo culture agropastoralists, who are rich in Y-haplogroup R1a and steppe ancestry, cluster with present-day Eastern Europeans. On the other hand, the Volosovo culture singleton sits near the European hunter-gatherer cline that no longer exists.
This Volosovo individual belongs to Y-haplogroup Q1a. However, most of the Volosovo males whose genomes are soon to be published belong to Y-haplogroup R1b.
Thus, in much of Eastern Europe during the Bronze Age, agropastoralists rich in R1a and steppe ancestry replaced hunter-gatherers rich in R1b and with no steppe ancestry. Of course, that's not where the story ends, but I'll get back to that later this year.
By the way, the relatively high coverage Fatyanovo Y-chromosome sequences are being analyzed at YFull. You can check out the results here.
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271 comments:
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Kindly eat your words and apologize
Freak not graduated from elementary school learn to read, I wrote what you did not read "All only asserted that in late Bustan (after the tested samples) there is a cultural influence of the Andronovo steppe inhabitants who lived near it."
@Vara Rob
The fact that you do not know how to read is a fact. Kuzmina never claimed that Bishkent was a culture of Andronovo origin. She always claimed that there were elements of Andronovo "he noted its similarity to the
Andronovo culture". Learn to read Rob "A. M. Mandel’shtam demonstrated some specific convergences between the Bishkent culture and the Indo-Aryan one and he showed their connection with Andronovo rituals". And yes, she claimed that the Indo-Aryans invaded India through the Bishkent culture, which is true. She considered it another wave of Indo-Aryans, but now it is definitely clear that they were Dasa under the rule of Indo-Aryans.
"According to supernord, Indo-Aryans did some DNA tests to make sure they were cremating all the R1a dudes LOL. Sorry, but we have to look at J2 for the genesis of Indo-Iranians."
Don't be fooled, the fact that they are from Europe proved not only the presence of R1a-Z93, but also I2a2a1b1b1.
LBA / IA Pakistan Swat Valley, Katelai [I12471 / Grave 61, single burial , 609 ] 1000-800 BCE M I2a2a1b1b1
LBA / IA Pakistan Swat Valley, Katelai [I12149 / Grave 122, single burial , 568 ] 1000-800 BCE M I2a2a1b1b1
I write only true things, you only write errors. About Uzboy I am also right because I write only the data of official science, and you shutted up disgraced. You just know absolutely nothing and only deceive.
@ Genos
“
Mokrin Serbia EBA is mix between Western Yamnaya and Tollense Valley-related pop”
Yep. Archi’s delirium about them being from Anatolia is false
@ Archie
I’m not Vara or Anatoly Klyosov. You have serious mental problems, along with your incel friend copper axe to the head
@Archi,
That branch of I2-M223 is rarely if ever found among the trace amounts of Z93 in Europe. More likely than not it is linked to the R1b-L23 that's found in central Asia, Iran, Pakistan and in minute quantities in India. In other words a mostly dead branch. However Z93 came to India from eastern Europe, it was not with I2-M223.
@Rob
"Probably because you’re both retarded"
I feel like I always have been decent towards you here despite you quite regularly throwing insults at me for no apparent reason but jesus christ you really are a loser lmfao
A literal nobody acting high and mighty in the comment section of a blogpost mate who do you think you are hahaha
@Vara Rob
I didn't say anything about Novosvobodnaya, don't deceive, I wrote that it is no different from Maikop, although some archaeologists consider it a separate culture that came from the north, now everywhere they write that it is a separate culture, although I just wrote that it is just a part of Maikop.
@Genos Historia
"Mokrin Serbia EBA is mix between Western Yamnaya and Tollense Valley-related pops.
@0.013
Croat BA: 41%
Vucedol: 16%
Welzin_BA: 43%"
This is a forbidden model, Welzin_BA lived a thousand years later than Mokrin Serbia EBA and was possibly their descendant. You are modeling ancestors through your descendants, which is forbidden.
@Rob
"Yep. Archi’s delirium about them being from Anatolia is false"
You shamefully don't understand in modeling. because never in your life have you modeled anything yourself, you just don't know how to do it physically.
And do not lie, you deceiver, I never wrote that they are from Anatolia, I wrote that they are aliens from the south - that is, from the southern Balkans.
BB + All SRBs & BGRs
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK33
Distance: 1.6967% / 0.01696736 | R3P
72.8 BGR_EBA
19.2 BGR_MP_N
8.0 BGR_Middle_C
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK9B
Distance: 1.2051% / 0.01205091 | R3P
56.6 BGR_EBA
35.8 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
7.6 BGR_C
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK23
Distance: 2.2673% / 0.02267269 | R3P
69.8 BGR_EBA
15.4 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
14.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK32
Distance: 1.3361% / 0.01336070 | R3P
43.8 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
30.4 BGR_EBA
25.8 BGR_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK31
Distance: 1.2358% / 0.01235781 | R3P
46.6 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
29.0 BGR_N
24.4 BGR_Middle_C
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK30
Distance: 1.2176% / 0.01217623 | R3P
63.6 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
28.4 BGR_MP_N
8.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK29A
Distance: 0.9614% / 0.00961357 | R3P
59.0 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
38.0 BGR_C
3.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK28A
Distance: 2.1792% / 0.02179233 | R3P
55.2 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
42.2 BGR_EBA
2.6 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK27
Distance: 1.0285% / 0.01028538 | R3P
43.4 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
34.2 BGR_MP_N
22.4 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK26A
Distance: 1.0960% / 0.01095971 | R3P
44.0 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
31.4 BGR_EBA
24.6 BGR_Late_C
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK25A
Distance: 0.9482% / 0.00948180 | R3P
49.2 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
26.8 BGR_EBA
24.0 BGR_MP_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK24A
Distance: 1.2662% / 0.01266162 | R3P
52.0 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
27.2 BGR_C
20.8 BGR_MP_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK22
Distance: 1.8327% / 0.01832740 | R3P
48.2 BGR_EBA
42.2 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
9.6 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK21A
Distance: 1.9001% / 0.01900116 | R3P
68.2 BGR_EBA
18.6 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
13.2 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK20
Distance: 1.2502% / 0.01250171 | R3P
53.4 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
28.8 BGR_EBA
17.8 SRB_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK19A
Distance: 1.3934% / 0.01393381 | R3P
48.6 BGR_EBA
41.4 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
10.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK17A
Distance: 1.4747% / 0.01474735 | R3P
57.4 BGR_EBA
23.2 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
19.4 BGR_C
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK16A
Distance: 1.6834% / 0.01683355 | R3P
49.8 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
25.8 BGR_Middle_C
24.4 BGR_EBA
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK15
Distance: 1.3972% / 0.01397221 | R3P
64.4 BGR_EBA
33.6 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
2.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK14
Distance: 1.0309% / 0.01030904 | R3P
68.0 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
23.8 BGR_MP_N
8.2 SRB_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK13
Distance: 0.7105% / 0.00710487 | R3P
39.4 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
31.0 BGR_MP_N
29.6 BGR_Late_C
Distance to: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK33
0.02060898 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.03014067 BGR_EBA:I2176
0.03232553 BGR_MP_N:I1108
0.03427827 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I3529
0.03670136 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I2364
0.04561348 BGR_MP_N:I1113
0.04793172 BGR_Middle_C:I2431
0.05072435 BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N:I0706
0.05291852 BGR_Late_C:I2425
0.05609795 BGR_Krepost_N:I0679_d
0.05750087 BGR_C:I2509
0.05846614 SRB_Starcevo_N:I4918
Kuzmina wrote ''N. Avanesova (1995: 37) believes that the Andronovans,
who brought with them the cremation rite, formed in the BMAC community a
privileged social group. There is every reason to endorse these conclusions''
The suggestion implies that it was introduced by andronovans, but it does not excplictly state that this was their exclusive mode of burial.
It is not Late Bustan, but with the start of Bustan period. From Kuzmina - ''..the BMAC continued to develop in the second half of the 2nd millennium BC. It is exactly from this time that we find many sites in Uzbekistan, assigned by Askarov to the Dzharkutan, Kuzali, Mollali and Bustan stages. In this period active contacts with the Andronovans were established. ''
The absence of steppe ancestry is therefor interesting, but if the society was structured, then further sampling might reveal steppe migrants, who indeed might have been over-represented in cremations. And the implication is that Bustan is still largely a continuation of BMAC. In fact, what is novel in currently sampled Bustan samples is their affinities with IVC and Iran.
G25 runs pick up some meager Progress ancestry (~ 5%), but its historical significance seems doutbful (as theyre 2000 years too old)
@Genos/Rob
That's really neat. What do you think Tollense valley related pop was?
@ Archie
''You shamefully don't understand in modeling. because never in your life have you modeled anything yourself, you just don't know how to do it physically.''
LOl of course I can. But there is little point in posting G25 models, esp given that theyre not formal, and pick up too much noise which does not get confirmed with qpADM. E.g. your 5% steppe ancestry in Baden C. which you used to claim that Baden is from the steppe. In other words, these online tools are good, but theyr prone to 'Monkey at a typewriter'' effect, examplared by yourself above all.
Your models for Mokrin are nonsense. There just picking up similarities in steppe/ Chacl ratio. You dont even understand that BGR_EBA are varied populations, with a central Balkan cluster and steppe (Cernavoda) cluster. You have used an avergae BGR_EBA population meaninglessly
Sanity check : BGR EBA is full of I2a2a1b along with H2, Mokrin is R1b-Z2103, J2b2 and I2a2a1a.
@ AWood
''More likely than not it is linked to the R1b-L23 that's found in central Asia, Iran, Pakistan and in minute quantities in India. In other words a mostly dead branch.''
What do you base this contention on ? There is M223 in Kurds, etc. I don;t think M223 arrived with R1b-L23. I wouldn't make any claims on lineages which you are not overly familiar with
@Rob
"It is not Late Bustan, but with the start of Bustan period. From Kuzmina - ''..the BMAC continued to develop in the second half of the 2nd millennium BC. It is exactly from this time that we find many sites in Uzbekistan, assigned by Askarov to the Dzharkutan, Kuzali, Mollali and Bustan stages. In this period active contacts with the Andronovans were established. ''"
This is exactly the late Bustan, after the BMAC period. This is the second half of the 2nd millennium BC, and the early Bustan, the one tested, belongs to the first half of the 2nd millennium BC and the middle. The problem is that the second half of the 2nd millennium BC in those places is called the Bustan period, well, so it was established by archaeologists.
Copper Uzbekistan Bustan [I11028 / UZ-BST-009, Site ?, 58-21, 119-4 ] 3331-2972 calBCE (4445±25 BP, PSUAMS-4780) M J2a1h2
Bronze Uzbekistan Bustan [I5604 / UZ-BST-011, Site 4, Grave 26, 57-030 ] 1880-1697 calBCE (3465±20 BP, PSUAMS-2774) M L1a
Bronze Uzbekistan Bustan [I11027 / UZ-BST-002, Site 7, Grave 33 (2), 44-92 ] 1662-1521 calBCE (3315±25 BP, PSUAMS-6198) M J2a1
Bronze Uzbekistan Bustan [I11520 / UZ-BST-015, Site 4, Grave 4, 57-27 ] 1613-1509 calBCE (3280±20 BP, PSUAMS-4605) M R2a3a2
Before 1500BC there is no Andronovo influence in Bustan, there is no Andronovo presence there either.
@Samual Andrus
"J2b2a came from Western Yamnaya"
Your fabrications are false, your model is complete garbage, you have never made a model and you started in vain, it is unclear what you do, and you are just as wrong in everything as always.
No Yamnaya close https://i.ibb.co/CwDWwLy/Mokrin-EBA-Tollense-LBAIA-PCA.png
I added Anatolia and the BB's are way off. This model with all Anatolia and Yamna still. As you can see it's all Anatolia, southern Bulgaria and a little bit of Yamnaya substrate. There are not local Serbs_N,_ะก,_BA.
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK33
Distance: 1.5013% / 0.01501297 | R3P
52.8 TUR_Barcin_N
30.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
16.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK9B
Distance: 1.2322% / 0.01232187 | R3P
65.2 BGR_EBA
25.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
9.2 TUR_Boncuklu_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK32
Distance: 1.2610% / 0.01260959 | R3P
34.2 BGR_N
30.2 BGR_MP_N
35.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK31
Distance: 1.2039% / 0.01203873 | R3P
40.4 TUR_Boncuklu_N
32.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
27.0 BGR_N
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK30
Distance: 1.2118% / 0.01211781 | R3P
49.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N
26.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
23.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK29A
Distance: 1.1489% / 0.01148884 | R3P
59.8 BGR_C
32.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.2 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK28A
Distance: 1.9104% / 0.01910437 | R3P
64.4 BGR_EBA
24.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
11.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK26A
Distance: 0.9903% / 0.00990291 | R3P
45.2 BGR_MP_N
29.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.6 BGR_Late_C
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK25A
Distance: 1.1496% / 0.01149616 | R3P
39.2 BGR_MP_N
35.6 BGR_EBA
25.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK24A
Distance: 1.3711% / 0.01371129 | R3P
49.2 TUR_Barcin_N
37.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
13.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK22
Distance: 1.6870% / 0.01687014 | R3P
48.8 TUR_Barcin_N
31.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
19.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK21A
Distance: 1.5871% / 0.01587120 | R3P
64.0 BGR_EBA
20.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
15.6 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK20
Distance: 1.1406% / 0.01140603 | R3P
59.6 BGR_Late_C
35.6 Yamnaya_UKR
4.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK19A
Distance: 1.3059% / 0.01305887 | R3P
68.8 BGR_EBA
17.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
13.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK17A
Distance: 1.1049% / 0.01104930 | R3P
60.2 TUR_Barcin_N
29.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
10.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK16A
Distance: 1.4430% / 0.01443049 | R3P
48.8 TUR_Barcin_N
33.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
18.2 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK15
Distance: 1.3558% / 0.01355766 | R3P
57.8 BGR_C
28.8 Yamnaya_UKR
13.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK14
1.0556% / 0.01055649 | R3P
49.8 TUR_Barcin_N
39.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
11.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK13
0.5932% / 0.00593192 | R3P
60.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK12
Distance: 0.9213% / 0.00921273 | R3P
76.6 BGR_MP_N
14.0 Yamnaya_UKR
9.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
Rob has embarrassed himself as usual. He does not know how to do anything, he only deceives, writes complete nonsense, and has never done anything, he does not understand anything at all neither in models nor in genetics or in archeology.
"You dont even understand that BGR_EBA are varied populations, with a central Balkan cluster and steppe (Cernavoda)"
It is you who do not understand, they have nothing to do with Cernavoda. They are all territorially and temporally close populations, they clearly show where Mokrin comes from. None of them are close to the Yamnaya population and have nothing to do with the steppe.
Bronze Bulgaria
Copper Age tell Smyadovo [I2176 / 12 Burial 20B] 3338-3025 calBCE (4470±30 BP, Ly-5516)
Copper Age tell Smyadovo [I2175 / 10 Burial 20A] 3328-3015 calBCE
Kairyaka necropolis, Merichleri, Merich4, Burial mound N1; Ind N6 [I2165] 3020-2895 calBCE (4340±30 BP, Beta-432797)
Dzhulyunitsa [I2510] 2906-2710 calBCE (4235±25 BP, PSUAMS-1815)
@ Copper Axe to the Head
''I feel like I always have been decent towards you here despite you quite regularly throwing insults at me for no apparent reason but jesus christ you really are a loser lmfao
A literal nobody acting high and mighty in the comment section of a blogpost mate who do you think you are hahaha''
Well sorry to disappoint you, Mr Winner/ Expert at Anthrogenica, but your wrong on every count. But I'll let you keep digging your own grave
BTW, i hope people don't let you get close to children or small animals
@Rob
"Well sorry to disappoint you, Mr Winner/ Expert at Anthrogenica"
Yeah clearly you are have issues champ. I'm guessing you were once on AG and got banned?
I never, never claim to be an expert in anything. I am also not pathetic enough to act like I am so much smarter and better than everyone else in comment sections.
Also you said winner shows how sad these outburts of you actually are, if you think treat these conversations with the mindset of winners versus losers. Real bum behaviour.
Here is a deal, dont mention me and I wont mention you Robbo. David has a cool blog and your childish comments really take away from what this place should be. No one likes it, and no one thinks you're mr cool ice when you are acting like a morlock ^_^
"along with your incel friend copper axe"
What makes you think Archi and I are friends? Because my comment exchanges with him do not lead to pants-on-head retarded splergefest taking up entire threads like yours?
@ Copper Axe
Well you continually mischaracterise the issues here, in your self-gratuitous preaching. For a start, you did claim to be an expert, because I read your comments on AG. You claimed that, like your friend Archie, both the archaeologists and geneticsts who worked on Glinoe are wrong. According to your (daft) opinion, these werre mischaracterised Dacians. If you say so, Mr Expert. And yes, i was banned at AG. You seem to think I care. There is nothing of quality on that forum outside the East Asian section, certainly since Jean M passed on. Moreover, the personalities & sense of humour on that 'forum'' are about as genuine & exciting as yours. Peas in a Pod
''along with your incel friend copper axe"
What makes you think Archi and I are friends?''
Well, you did openly declare your deep feelings for him after he derided another commentator. Hahahaha I love the Archman!”
Yet you accuse others ? I only direct opinion where deserved, and Im an excellent judge of character
''Also you said winner shows how sad these outburts of you actually are, if you think treat these conversations with the mindset of winners versus losers. Real bum behaviour.''
I have never approached discussion with that, other than apprehending the dishonesty of Archie. Obviuosly, this form of blind partisanship resonates with you
''I am also not pathetic enough to act like I am so much smarter and better than everyone else in comment sections.''
You are pathetic, because you're full of crap. Moreover, you impose yourself on a fake pedestal of morality.
"Here is a deal, dont mention me and I wont mention you Robbo. '
Easily done, because you're irrelevant
Archi these I2a2a1b1b1 makes found buried in swat wer the slaves right? Ad they were not cremated? Hahahaha
"The suggestion implies that it was introduced by andronovans, but it does not excplictly state that this was their exclusive mode of burial."
The fire rituals in the bustan necropolis is the same layer that the samples in Narsimhan paper have been excavated. That is also the reason that the fire rituals are mentioned in the archaeology supplement to the Narasimhan paper.
We should have seen at least some steppe mlba ancestry in the buried Bustan samples if the cremated were of steppe origin. The burials and cremations are from the same necropolis after all.
But no such steppe_mlba ancestry can be seen..
The first documented cremation evidence that I know of is from byan zherek valley at tasbas 2600bce. This is right next to the site at Dali from where we have the Dali_eba sample also dated 2600bce. In this cremation, grains were also offered to the deceased. And, dali_eba has ancestry from Turan. Turan ancestry was travelling north through the IAMC at this point of time, transporting wheat and barley to China.
If there is older documented cremation let me know haven't studied this enough.
People also forget that fire temples and rituals at BMAC existed with no ancestry input from the steppe, eg at Gonur and dzharkutan around 2000bce. And that bmac shifted outliers have been found in the steppe samples.
Simon, I mistook NIEcap2 for NIEcap9 which was the most Slavic on the O'Sullivan's PCA. Lucas's NIEcap2 model comes from here:
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=164942&st=795
David:
"What are the chances that Poles and Ukrainians have ancestry from any ancient population from Estonia or surrounds? I'd say zero".
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/12/big-deal-of-2019-ancient-dna.html
@ambron
WTF is the relevance of that link?
David, Arza's models are consistent with this map, because the share of EST BA in them drops from Belarus, through Ukraine, to Poland.
Estonia BA is, after all, only a proxy for a population that may have lived elsewhere.
"The fire rituals in the bustan necropolis is the same layer that the samples in Narsimhan paper have been excavated. That is also the reason that the fire rituals are mentioned in the archaeology supplement to the Narasimhan paper."
This statement is not correct. The tested samples were before the Andronovo influence, that's a fact. The fact that this Bustan stage covers both the Andronovo influence and without it does not mean that those samples after the beginning of the Andronovo influence, just the dates say that they were before the beginning of the Andronov influence. And that's not why Narasimhan mentioned it, he just informed.
@ambron
You've got things backwards.
Estonia BA was largely replaced by Estonia IA, and this involved population movements from the south and east, which is reflected on the maps.
It has to be remembered that Dali EBA is overwhelmingly WSHG
These were the first mobile pastoralists in Central Eurasia
BMAC admixture seems patchy and episodic, and peaks in east rather than west inner Asia
David, but the map shows the same as the Arza's models that today's Belarusians, Ukrainians and Poles have an EST BA component. And that's a fact! But the question of where they actually got it from is another matter.
There's no such thing as an Estonia BA component.
There were multiple migrations from the south to north, and no migrations from Estonia (or surrounds) to the south.
You should know that, even if your strong point isn't genetics.
David, I'm a pharmacologist, so I'm no stranger to genetics. For example, I know that the population Y, whose proxy is X, did not have to live where X.
It would still be interesting to know where did Slavs get their Baltic shift, and where did Baltic shift originate. Perhaps Ukraine or Belarus? I am not too familiar with the material cultures there during the Bronze Age, but in terms of aDNA there's a huge void from that territory of the period.
David, if the population that looks like Estonia BA came from the south, it was previously in the south. Logically! Let's wait for the upcoming Bronze Age samples from Central Europe.
@Rob,
It doesn't make sense to say Scythians were Balkan people. Scythians came from Eurasian Steppe, they came from Asian Steppe specifically.
A lot of the Scythians in Moldova are mostly Balkan, with some Scythian admix. Maybe they are what Greeks called Scythians, but the fact is most of their ancestry was originally not Scythian.
@Arza
Those Bacho Kiro samples, are they from a coming paper? Furthermore, have you checked more D-stats, such as possible affinities to Oase of MUP Europeans, or to see if they choose Ust'Ishim over Oase?
@ epoch
Apparently yes, although I don't know anything else about them.
pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p n
Chimp BK_IUP Oase Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG 0.00047 0.00107 0.44 0.6570 178499
Chimp BK_IUP Oase Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG 0.00334 0.00105 3.20 0.0014 178705
Chimp BK_IUP Oase China_Tianyuan 0.00221 0.00111 2.00 0.0458 168925
Chimp BK_IUP Oase Russia_Siberia_UP 0.00345 0.00113 3.06 0.0022 140085
Chimp BK_IUP Oase kra001 0.00307 0.00103 2.97 0.0029 178941
Chimp BK_MUP Oase Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG 0.00595 0.00110 5.43 0.0000 150675
Chimp BK_MUP Oase Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG 0.00730 0.00109 6.69 0.0000 150893
Chimp BK_MUP Oase China_Tianyuan 0.00599 0.00118 5.08 0.0000 144258
Chimp BK_MUP Oase Russia_Siberia_UP 0.00844 0.00121 6.95 0.0000 121017
Chimp BK_MUP Oase kra001 0.00842 0.00118 7.13 0.0000 151045
Chimp Oase BK_IUP BK_MUP -0.00432 0.00105 -4.11 0.0000 146545
I can check some stats if you give me a list of them.
Also @Arza
Have you been able to determine any Y-calls yet? In the last thread I think you seemed to imply they could perhaps be P* however these guys seem far to old for that to be the case no? My guess would be further upstream, some sort of K2, but also who knows.
It would be amazing if these guys actually are some sort of very very early Eastern Non-African, in Bulgaria, 45,000 years ago. Where the heck were West Eurasians at this time?
@ambron
"Lucas's NIEcap2 model comes from here:"
Cool, thanks! About half of my ancestry is ethnically Alamannic, you know, that's why I'm so keen on knowing more about these low res samples.
Arza, decipher what is BK_IUP and BK_MUP? In Bacho Kiro Cave, almost everyone is the same age. BK_IUP practically does not differ from Oase and Russia_Ust_Ishim, slightly more Eastern or Indian. But BK_MUP is very different, it is more similar to the Andamans as it apparently contains more ancient components.
Arza, these should be compared with Aurignac, that is, with GoyetQ116-1, BK_MUP should not differ much from it.
In general, I know that analysis should begin with the analysis of individual samples. Because time alignment may not always be correct.
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [CC7-335] 46190-45250 cal BC (42450±510 BP, ETH-86772) N
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [CC7-2289] 44580-43720 cal BC (40600±420 BP, ETH-86771) R
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [BB7-240] 45660-44800 cal BC (41850±480 BP, ETH-86770) N
correlate with
Russia Ust'-Ishim, western Siberia [Ust_Ishim] 45530-40610 calBCE [46064-40920 calBCE (41400±1300 BP, OxA-25516); 46364-40844 calBCE (41400±1400 BP, OxA-30190)] M K2a* (pre-NO*) M526. R*/U*
Romania Peลtera cu Oase [Oase 1] 39690-35630 calBCE [(34290+970-870 BP, GrA-22810), (>35200 BP, OxA-11711), (34950+900-890 BP, OxA-GrA combined 14C Age)] M K2a* (pre-NO*) N
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [AA7-738] 43760-43050 cal BC (39750±380 BP, ETH-86769) M
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [F6-597] 35750-35340 cal BC (31660±140 BP, AIX-12025) M
correlate with
Aurignacian Belgium Troisiรจme caverne (Goyet) [GoyetQ116-1] 33210-32480 calBCE (30880+170-160 BP, GrA-46175) M C1a M130, V232, F3393, CTS11043 M
Aurignacian Belgium Troisiรจme caverne (Goyet) [Goyet376-3] 33940-33140 cal BP M
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [BK-1653] 34690-34380 cal BC (30570±120 BP, AIX-12024) U
correlate with
Russia Kostenki 14 - Markina Gora,Voronezh region [Kostenki14] 36730-34310 calBCE (33250±500 BP, OxA-X-2395-15) M C1b U2
or
Russia Kostenki 12 - Volkovskaya, Voronezh region [Kostenki12] 32990-31840 cal BP M CT M5609, M5611, M5692, M5712, M5737, CTS9948 U2
or Sunghir and Gravettian
@ Archi
Apparently they had a substantial Neanderthal admixture, so maybe this is driving the Oase 1 vs. others stats (as Oase also had such admixture)?
https://youtu.be/jiTanXw2YNo?t=7728
In short: contact with Neanderthals few generations before, no descendants in modern Europe, some descendants in Asia.
Bacho_Kiro_IUP BB7-240
Bacho_Kiro_IUP CC7-335
Bacho_Kiro_IUP F6-620
Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653
In general, I know that analysis should begin with the analysis of individual samples. Because time alignment may not always be correct.
Good point. I'll switch to individual samples for now.
@ Genos
“ It doesn't make sense to say Scythians were Balkan people. Scythians came from Eurasian Steppe, they came from Asian Steppe specifically”
well, you're not making anysense because you have misattributed or misunderstood me and you have not clarified what you mean by ''Asian steppe'
What I have stated is that (the historical) Scythians formed in the western steppe, I have not stated anything about the Balkans.
The idea that Scythians came from Siberia is product of false projection of recent Turkic - Mongolian invasions onto the Iron Age ("waves of eastern invasions'') and by people losing their minds after the discovery of Arzhan-1
I understand why people think now they came from Inner Asia, but these people have not married up all the pieces of evidence in any meaningful way.
Confirm this for yourself- Model
1. Tagar Scythians
2. Scythians Aldy Bel
3. central Sakae
4. Pazyryk
If you are sharp, you will realise what this tells us
Re: BachoKiro
I've recreated some stats from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tig.2017.11.008
https://i.postimg.cc/cZ3DsywP/f4-BK.png
@Cy Tolliver
They're CT mostly and I saw one F, although I don't remember which one it was. Their connection to the spread of P is just my speculation.
Confirm this for yourself- Model
1. Tagar Scythians
2. Scythians Aldy Bel
3. central Sakae
4. Pazyryk
If you are sharp, you will realise what this tells us..
We have been through this rob.. mlba period had minimal bmac or East Asian in the region.. in the iron age you start seeing these ancestries in the Scythian and sarmatian samples. paternal markers from the 'inner asian' region also present.
Simon, sure!
Matt, I'm looking at your PCA right now. Good job!
@ Cy T
'' It would be amazing if these guys actually are some sort of very very early Eastern Non-African, in Bulgaria, 45,000 years ago.'
It would be. But it would mean they are not 'east non-African'', but simply the earliest north Eurasians.
Arza, Please run qpDstat -p parqpDstat
parqpDstat ->
poplistname: list_file
list_file ->
Chimp.REF
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
Romania_Oase
BB7-240
CC7-335
F6-620
Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all
Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published
China_Tianyuan
BK-1653
Russia_Kostenki14
Russia_Kostenki12
Czech_Vestonice16
Russia_Sunghir1.SG
Russia_Yana_UP.SG
Russia_Siberia_UP
Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG
Russia_Sunghir1.SG & Russia_Siberia_UP are optional
@ Vasistha
'''We have been through this rob.. mlba period had minimal bmac or East Asian in the region.. in the iron age you start seeing these ancestries in the Scythian and sarmatian samples. paternal markers from the 'inner asian' region also present.''
Yes that's obvious; but surely we can say more than that
To begin, BMAC ancestry is present in MLBA Kazakhstan.
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA2:I4794
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1:I4787 65%
TKM_Gonur1_BA:I10410 24.8%
Khovsgol 10.2%
CHN_Shimao_LN:SM-SGDLM6 0%
Distance 2.877%
But it's not universal.
This is the crux of the eastern Scythians:
RUS_Tagar
KAZ_Taldysay_MLBA1: 75.2%
Khovsgol 21.4%
TKM_Gonur1_BA:I10410 3.4%
CHN_Shimao_LN:SM-SGDLM6 0%
d:1.8406%
The Tagar Scythians date 900 - 800 BC. They are the earliest 'Scythians' currently sampled in Eurasia, and they are also the most eastern Scythians. They are overwhelmingly WSH. The Barrows at places like Arzhan have no local precedents, and instead show links to the west Kazakh steppe, Khwarazm, etc. This means that these populations came from the relative west.
In comparison, the Sakae have elevated levels of Inner Asian ancestry. And Pazyryk, who are the latest group - have the highest levels.
The Sarmatians and Scythians in the West have distinctive demographic origins.
@ Archi
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ek40fubiIul1Ng4H55SBaMQwbqSg4pfe/view?usp=sharing
@ambron, cheers. It's basically just more or less the same as Vahaduo Europe2 PCA, but I thought using just samples from the east of Europe on a PCA alone would help to visualize some things.
If you want to have a look on Vahaduo Europe2 PCA, here's a datasheet, where I've separated SRB_Mokrin_EBA into two subgroups* that would be good for that: https://pastebin.com/pz43Egq7
Here are some downloads of those PCA from Vahaduo: https://imgur.com/a/kLRP1sM
... but its better to explore directly on the website as you run out of space in the legend with screenshots.
Here are some slightly arbitrary and probably not very good models to try and use these SRB_Mokrin_EBA for present day people: https://imgur.com/a/j5le8vL
I don't think they're very good models and are fairly arbitrary, just a starting point.
*Separating into subgroups is a bit questionable I guess, but there is some area of the cline with a bit of a gap no individuals present, and it helps with visualization, and I believe the preprint talked about a tentative north and south substructure.
Re: BachoKiro
Bacho_Kiro_IUP is clustered with Romania_Oase. This is Bachokirien, as I wrote earlier, comes from Russia_Ust_Ishim.
BK-1653 is clustered with Aurignac and Kostenki and Gravetettian.
Most clustered
Chimp.REF Czech_Vestonice16 BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.016385412622084195 9.438880044724339e-4 17.35948814313248 1.672074492603891e-67 502215
Chimp.REF Czech_Vestonice16 BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.014082192618407631 0.0010205364688761437 13.798813710122005 2.5908096948493302e-43 261678
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.013956050682499917 0.0027347506660417454 5.1032259927007475 3.339118511420077e-7 16337
Chimp.REF Czech_Vestonice16 BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 0.013140050487863129 0.0010661865295146296 12.324344872228878 6.698565099994082e-35 196879
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.013135346769251195 0.0010375640399448703 12.659793770367298 9.875844329427765e-37 512358
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki14 BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.013051011087672128 9.722729721055181e-4 13.423196429506154 4.42219871169228e-41 615278
Chimp.REF Russia_Sunghir1.SG BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.01252987003757631 9.947374780109165e-4 12.596157593892128 2.2168356780807858e-36 450284
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki14 BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.011497978858241257 9.927318928591611e-4 11.582159232465068 5.075138931160825e-31 308489
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.010304622402203964 0.0010543040433361052 9.773862167498981 1.457861799261548e-22 265706
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki14 BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 0.010225289951760225 0.0010507927417914556 9.73102453517858 2.2234211711238336e-22 233832
Chimp.REF Russia_Sunghir1.SG BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 0.010146307678988805 0.0011169517310686138 9.08392672374624 1.0472679319046492e-19 173265
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 0.010049047735471568 0.0011378523375405352 8.831592117824847 1.0319615764103167e-18 200417
Chimp.REF Russia_Sunghir1.SG BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.009964390989562517 0.0010770816343132277 9.251286691854183 2.2180626496369203e-20 228313
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki12 BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.00988197826901463 0.0024107281301949165 4.0991674445743636 4.146389832423688e-5 21352
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 0.008882082695252634 0.0042567654981236994 2.0865802213365257 0.03692609670256655 6530
Chimp.REF Russia_Yana_UP.SG BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.008412597101359017 8.599416993403874e-4 9.782752839886523 1.3352839722627163e-22 642370
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki12 BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.00839301419776358 0.0018068321440165935 4.645154352360526 3.3982228548638974e-6 39795
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.008212615489905158 0.003828395062707627 2.1451849548925073 0.03193806203981485 8767
Chimp.REF Russia_Yana_UP.SG BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.007131236358809252 8.782200652278318e-4 8.120101830011405 4.657926931050465e-16 323927
Chimp.REF Russia_Yana_UP.SG BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 0.0070432871663357365 9.052206810497527e-4 7.780740446813349 7.210128745057159e-15 245269
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki12 BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 0.006596552367913369 0.0026360087497696158 2.5024774172278073 0.012332749312420075 16069
Chimp.REF Mbuti.DG BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 0.0012538145238076418 4.2630160997516095e-4 2.9411442379509123 0.0032700222799417577 631905
Chimp.REF Russia_Siberia_UP BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.0010333653690772827 9.79363020141619e-4 1.0551402777367014 0.2913611733118617 235154
Chimp.REF Mbuti.DG BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 0.0010316519601387207 4.860174759407015e-4 2.1226643304171873 0.03378199004835005 318906
Most unclustered
Chimp.REF Romania_Oase BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 -0.003902541925957309 0.0013809072643963642 -2.8260709654990674 0.004712282295506002 75848
Chimp.REF Romania_Oase BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 -0.004469606674612653 0.0015594579174334016 -2.8661284313262225 0.0041552563186292866 57052
Chimp.REF Romania_Oase BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 -0.0047143354136048475 0.0012447073750027158 -3.787505005820795 1.5216762023922636e-4 140847
Chimp.REF BK_BB7-240 BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 -0.006313156848073651 0.001137585465632403 -5.5496110303800865 2.863058755767732e-8 296682
Chimp.REF BK_BB7-240 BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 -0.00782822443193977 0.0013064882661808952 -5.991806152858231 2.0752320296427575e-9 116757
Chimp.REF BK_F6-620 BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 -0.008025427899232176 0.0010914455230097043 -7.35302654144546 1.9376844210625692e-13 296682
Chimp.REF BK_CC7-335 BK_BB7-240 BK_BK-1653 -0.00922428633829233 0.001304968423764727 -7.068589684094439 1.5651618433299702e-12 116757
Chimp.REF BK_CC7-335 BK_F6-620 BK_BK-1653 -0.009480644988098901 0.0011729129014871607 -8.082991478803068 6.319704095445066e-16 223508
Chimp.REF BK_F6-620 BK_CC7-335 BK_BK-1653 -0.010500742702722101 0.0011732179718541935 -8.95037661767691 3.542715575760905e-19 223508
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Romania_Oase Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published 0.01657621930007655 0.0042818666662714985 3.871260034939516 1.082742128264593e-4 4791
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Romania_Oase Czech_Vestonice16 0.01617785019503283 0.001037611191111251 15.5914376537389 8.323897790481658e-55 135020
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Romania_Oase Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all 0.014340893237005558 0.0010778291635411385 13.305349049834089 2.1548443745474566e-40 135231
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_F6-620 Czech_Vestonice16 0.014061385973194389 8.491443864887526e-4 16.559475864097514 1.367803655861436e-61 514743
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_BB7-240 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published 0.013827372384009396 0.0030231485811225956 4.573831557718156 4.788848874462285e-6 9031
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_CC7-335 Czech_Vestonice16 0.013821535895911752 9.429748391805002e-4 14.65737506625677 1.208555533772573e-48 201880
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_F6-620 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published 0.013568834107419318 0.0022851825055606487 5.937746361352582 2.8896662878138285e-9 16794
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_F6-620 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all 0.01350441717278249 8.584042565009737e-4 15.73200164201093 9.127927000905608e-56 525902
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Czech_Vestonice16 0.013467382061119354 7.792254295240236e-4 17.283037168519606 6.313418243644134e-67 531921
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Czech_Vestonice16 Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG -0.01316917353311818 7.658987412055697e-4 -17.19440550638473 2.924419754366747e-66 558998
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 China_Tianyuan Czech_Vestonice16 0.012749000635051157 7.779596598469921e-4 16.387739998702003 2.339834154231933e-60 525417
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_CC7-335 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all 0.012629557810566135 9.550938419541742e-4 13.22336848568238 6.4317734827240176e-40 205764
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all 0.012514649503944101 8.411642170213349e-4 14.877772081484876 4.595493287380493e-50 546378
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Romania_Oase Russia_Kostenki14 0.012353703471671154 0.0010672256273167756 11.575531129936321 5.483062899006494e-31 143658
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Czech_Vestonice16 Russia_Siberia_UP -0.012339496967889474 7.458989184247975e-4 -16.543122215471556 1.7947421890533663e-61 419125
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_BB7-240 Czech_Vestonice16 0.01233822464240769 8.736197089713886e-4 14.123107017508657 2.736548680251429e-45 268299
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG -0.012246452174106212 7.736639146728768e-4 -15.829162950277057 1.9580871310612385e-56 574037
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Romania_Oase Russia_Kostenki12 0.01216726261422326 0.0025001896271406496 4.8665359147731495 1.1357129279166912e-6 11746
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all China_Tianyuan -0.011752436731662092 7.863198171253734e-4 -14.946128122049155 1.6507183945281447e-50 530663
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published 0.01171814690443107 0.0020307560019132112 5.770337201215309 7.911306314350601e-9 17272
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_BB7-240 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all 0.011443382203738748 8.871220332615238e-4 12.899445369051314 4.5334824875666543e-38 272694
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all Russia_Siberia_UP -0.011328091487295827 7.716727209775793e-4 -14.67991698986721
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Romania_Oase Russia_Sunghir1.SG 0.0112927137287918 0.0010949267260681782 10.31
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG -0.011154043598628607 0.0021 -5.25
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_CC7-335 Russia_Sunghir1.SG 0.010489221265323985 0.0010258021582249055 10.225
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_CC7-335 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published 0.010446149262624809 0.0035 2.9177
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_F6-620 Russia_Kostenki14 0.010443846261755235 8.601906370811961e-4 12.14
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_F6-620 Russia_Sunghir1.SG 0.010253060733997005 8.92554015083688e-4 11.48
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_CC7-335 Russia_Kostenki14 0.010192412365508316 9.429954397213473e-4 10.80
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published China_Tianyuan -0.009805638241989142 0.0023 -4.17
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Sunghir1.SG 0.0097860826669415 8.041846512062301e-4 12.168
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki14 0.009770455881961853 8.105101819864997e-4 12.05
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published Russia_Siberia_UP -0.009516866781017699 0.0024 -3.93
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Sunghir1.SG Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG -0.009439188899572718 7.916989957441718e-4 -11.92
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Romania_Oase Russia_Yana_UP.SG 0.009352900223516912 9.266710777940945e-4 10.093009750321698
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 China_Tianyuan Russia_Sunghir1.SG 0.009284928661348182 8.170138757494482e-4 11.36
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Kostenki14 Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG -0.009263207546729406 7.667303613612794e-4 -12.081440899618464
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki14 0.00888826560358843 7.807338249347213e-4 11.38
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_CC7-335 Russia_Kostenki12 0.00883079289892915 0.002338957004650353 3.77
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Sunghir1.SG Russia_Siberia_UP -0.008653203543586643 7.794881977191134e-4 -11.1
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Kostenki14 Russia_Siberia_UP -0.008498376747836234 7.649414259047787e-4 -11.109
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Kostenki12 Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG -0.00801747891780593 0.0014818997733059011 -5.41
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Kostenki12 0.00795198448723461 0.00137 5.79
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_BB7-240 Russia_Kostenki12 0.007769234289898847 0.0019856667783544877 3.91
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_F6-620 Russia_Yana_UP.SG 0.007677746043677421 7.482394830015414e-4 10.26
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_CC7-335 Russia_Yana_UP.SG 0.007480498282813409 8.264676254644567e-4 9.05
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Kostenki12 Russia_Siberia_UP -0.0073867618173383475 0.0015946237708757637 -4.63
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ376-19_published Russia_Yana_UP.SG -0.007162854419823668 0.0019 -3.61
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Yana_UP.SG 0.006958516326681177 6.945058656081118e-4 10.019
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 China_Tianyuan Russia_Kostenki12 0.006841077425039902 0.00148 4.619
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Czech_Vestonice16 Russia_Yana_UP.SG -0.006613069072544895 6.973511281899382e-4 -9.483
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Indian_GreatAndaman_100BP.SG -0.006604360493568949 6.709702558872701e-4 -9.84
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 China_Tianyuan Russia_Yana_UP.SG 0.006360921691335922 6.569156395451546e-4 9.68
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_Siberia_UP -0.005784310406514745 6.422968557280429e-4 -9
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all Russia_Yana_UP.SG -0.005563615194564907 7.307336836077199e-4 -7.61
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 BK_BB7-240 Russia_Yana_UP.SG 0.00555449586898153 7.593582904822921e-4 7.31
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Kostenki12 Czech_Vestonice16 0.00411941770246776 0.0015 2.62
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Russia_Kostenki14 Czech_Vestonice16 0.003948647713780883 7.875443480124641e-4 5.01
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all Russia_Kostenki12 -0.0035052803327774934 0.00159 -2.20
Mbuti.DG BK_BK-1653 Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1_published_all Russia_Kostenki14 -0.0029489428618175856 7.931353134411839e-4 -3.71
The Bacho Kirian is usually ascribed an Emiran origin. Any shared affinities with Ust-Ishm are due to the fact that there both IUP. Of course, we should probably wait for the paper & real stats
@Arza
I'm good with a combined BK_UP.
If you could please do the following D-stats:
Chimp BK_UP GoyetQ116-1 Kostenki14
Chimp BK_UP Tianyuan Kostenki14
Chimp BK_UP GoyetQ116-1 Tianyuan
Chimp BK_UP Vestonice16 Kostenki14
Chimp BK_UP Villabruna Kostinki14
@Archi
Bacho_Kiro_IUP is clustered with Romania_Oase. This is Bachokirien, as I wrote earlier, comes from Russia_Ust_Ishim.
It seems that a group has been found that has spread mtDNA R throughout Eurasia. Yes, the male Y-DNA of this group died out in Siberia and Europe, but the female remained
@Arza
A number of models claim a rather unaltered Villabruna/WHG-like ancestry from early on, admixing in Vestonice and such. The question obviously would be where this ancestry was from, if it really existed. As we have Kostenki12/Buran Kaya and Muierii/Cioclovina as evidence where it could not be from, and we have Villabruna related ancestry in Dzudzuana 26 kyo, that Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653, which is 30 kyo, might be very interesting to test with.
Chimp Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653 Villabruna Kostenki14
Chimp Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653 Villabruna Kostenki12
Chimp Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653 Villabruna Sunghir
Chimp Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653 Villabruna GoyetQ116-1
Chimp Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653 Villabruna Vestonice16
And if possible:
Chimp Bacho_Kiro_MUP BK-1653 Villabruna Ostuni1
"The Bacho Kirian is usually ascribed an Emiran origin."
This was never any scientific data, I don't even know whose fantasy it is.
@epoch
"I'm good with a combined BK_UP."
You cannot combine, there are samples from completely different eras. One of the initial UP Bachokirien, the second of the end of the Orignacian, the beginning of the Gravettian.
@ Archie
“
"The Bacho Kirian is usually ascribed an Emiran origin."
This was never any scientific data, I don't even know whose fantasy it is. ”
Well it’s clear that you don’t know. In fact it’s the leading hypothesis, including that of the main author of the upcoming study
“ series of initial Upper Paleolithic assemblages spread from the Levant (Emirian) to Bulgaria (Bacho-Kirian) and
Moravia (Bohunician).” This was based on decades of typological artefact study
As I said; these are merely shared affinities between west Siberia & Europe.
I know you like to Imagine that everything came from Siberia ; but it did not
@Rob
"Well it’s clear that you don’t know. In fact it’s the leading hypothesis,"
I know everything. No need to imagine, no trace of spread from the Levant has ever been found. There were very cautious statements about the Bohunician, but not about Bachokirian. Earlier it was often called Archaic Aurignacuan, Aurignacuan from Altai. So don’t, no one took it to Emiran. Svoboda 2001 even suggested calling Bohunician as Emiro-Bohunician, but not Bachokirian.
Again, knowing nothing, you just fantasized from a quote from a source.
Bohunice , Bacho Kiro, ust Ishm are just tips of the iceberg of a large pan Eurasian population
Neither BK came from Siberia nor vice versa
I don’t understand your obsession with simplistic scenarios. I guess that’s all you can manage to squeeze out
@Rob
"Bacho Kiro, ust Ishm are just tips of the iceberg of a large pan Eurasian population Neither BK came from Siberia nor vice versa"
Your head is not all right. No pan population was existed. All people settled along certain routes, and these were generally the first people in Europe, they came from somewhere quite recently and this from somewhere was from Siberia.
One cluster
Russia Ust'-Ishim, western Siberia [Ust_Ishim] 45530-40610 calBCE [46064-40920 calBCE (41400±1300 BP, OxA-25516); 46364-40844 calBCE (41400±1400 BP, OxA-30190)] M K2a* (pre-NO*) R*
Romania Peลtera cu Oase [Oase 1] 39690-35630 calBCE [(34290+970-870 BP, GrA-22810), (>35200 BP, OxA-11711), (34950+900-890 BP, OxA-GrA combined 14C Age)] M K2a* (pre-NO*) N
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [CC7-335] 46190-45250 cal BC (42450±510 BP, ETH-86772) N
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [CC7-2289] 44580-43720 cal BC (40600±420 BP, ETH-86771) R
Bulgaria Bacho Kiro Cave [BB7-240] 45660-44800 cal BC (41850±480 BP, ETH-86770) N
In general, all people spread from one point to another point, no pan-father exists.
Well you forgot Fumane which is mtdna R
The fact is nobody thinks BK came from Siberia . This is your fantasy, to use your terminology
Of course, the pan father is in the near east; where IUP assemblages existed thousands of years earlier than in Siberia & Europe
@Rob
"Well you forgot Fumane which is mtdna R"
It does not matter. Fumane does not have an autosomal analysis, it is likely that he belonged to the Bachokirian.
"Of course, the pan father is in the near east; where IUP assemblages existed thousands of years earlier than in Siberia & Europe"
This is not true, there is no such data, there are no such dates. no pan-father exists.
PM
@ Archi
“ It does not matter. Fumane does not have an autosomal analysis, it is likely that he belonged to the Bachokirian.”
It 100% matters. And it’s proto-Aurignacian , not Bacho Kirian.
''This is not true, there is no such data, there are no such dates. ''
I thought you said ''I know everything'' ?
Look here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440311001658
''This study presents for the first time a finite sequence of radiocarbon ages for the youngest MP context in Kebara Cave, and by so doing sets a lower age limit for the oldest known MP-UP transition in the Levant. .. the appearance of UP technology in the Near East took place not later than 49,000 to 47,000 years Cal BP (Reimer et al., 2009) and possibly fit the รรงagizli dates. Our finite Kebara radiocarbon dates demonstrate that this range represents the earliest evidence for a context of UP in Western Asia. Assuming that in the future such dates will be supported by samples from Ksar’Akil, the Levantine IUP and EUP assemblages herald the diffusion of UP technologies into Europe''
This predates by several thousand years ust-Ishm (45,000 calBP).
I think an eastern diffusion is possible, but would need come from a context of an > 60000 BP spread of AMH via a Green Arabia
This would need a revolutionary set of evidences ; not the incessant hymns of “muh Siberia” by Archi
@Rob
"100% matters. And it’s proto-Aurignacian , not Bacho Kirian."
proto-Aurignacian is just another generic name for Bacho Kiro monuments. proto-Aurignacian is not something definite. Therefore, it can easily belong to the Bachokirian cluster.
"" the appearance of UP technology in the Near East took place not later than 49,000 to 47,000 years Cal BP"
This predates by several thousand years ust-Ishm (45,000 calBP)."
Don't talk nonsense, you are again deliberately confusing BP and BC, Ust Ishim 47000 cal BP, Altai proto-Aurignacian Ust-Karakol has dates >52000 cal BP. So there are no dates in the Near East before dates in Siberia, you are disproved.
All your words are absolutely without proof, they refute themselves.
@ Archie
''Altai proto-Aurignacian Ust-Karakol has dates >52000 cal BP'
I'd like to see an international scholars perspective on that ...
Here is a publication in the journal Nature 2019
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0843-2
@ epoch
https://pastebin.com/AZRW5kS5
@Arza
Thanks a lot.
Chimp.REF BK_BK-1653 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.002464565548677695 8.030608875469339e-4 -3.068964740900367 0.0021480194122536662 593208
Interesting, isn't it.
@Arza
It's not a very strong signal, but it is undeniably there.
# Gravettian Balkans sample
Chimp.REF BK_BK-1653 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.002464565548677695 8.030608875469339e-4 -3.068964740900367 0.0021480194122536662 593208
# Very ancient Balkans sample.
Chimp.REF BK_BB7-240 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14 -0.0023672518027532934 7.912727137629903e-4 -2.9917015481243494 0.002774273398617451 356954
Chimp.REF BK_BB7-240 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.0019895477075766266 8.091718731481909e-4 -2.4587455071022504 0.01394234120148955 348823
Chimp.REF BK_F6-620 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14 -0.0018788474150718774 7.132871508124147e-4 -2.6340687799183278 0.008436839548436246 710542
Chimp.REF BK_F6-620 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.0018826149594474552 7.024653530574786e-4 -2.6800111226174765 0.007361971392556879 687873
Chimp.REF BK_CC7-335 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14 -0.002161250653529795 8.396600408442277e-4 -2.5739591601343648 0.01005421402909776 271602
Chimp.REF BK_CC7-335 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.002604372783362169 8.3551161301299e-4 -3.117099442783781 0.0018263995367799788 265323
If we consider |Z|=2.5 relevant, as recent papers have been doing, it becomes even more interesting.
@epoch
-0.0018 ... -0.0024 these are negligible distances. They are related to the fact that the Gravettian component in these samples exceeds the ะostenki14.
The reason for this Z-value is not in the drift, but in the infinitely small standard deviation (e-4), this is just the noise level, so dividing there gives an error.
See https://i.ibb.co/SmRNGXS/Bacho-Kiro-PCA.png
Distance to: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_MUP:BK-1653
0.02489237 BEL_GoyetQ116-1:Q116-1
0.02719173 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir3
0.02767634 CZE_Vestonice16:Vestonice16
0.02951423 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir2
0.03171829 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir4
0.03251600 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir1
0.03813253 RUS_Kostenki14:Kostenki14
0.04545349 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana2
0.05043729 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana1
0.05900610 RUS_Ust_Ishim:Ust_Ishim
0.06637228 BEL_GoyetQ2:GoyetQ2
0.08113144 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP:Andaman
0.09707106 RUS_Yakutia_LUP:Khaiyrgas1
0.10058176 RUS_Ust_Kyakhta:UKY001
0.11232943 RUS_Ust_Belaya:I1526
0.12300024 ETH_4500BP:mota
0.12318125 RUS_Sakhalin_HG:I15926
0.14621912 ITA_Villabruna:Villabruna
Distance to: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_IUP:F6-620
0.02191347 RUS_Ust_Ishim:Ust_Ishim
0.03782988 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana1
0.03964480 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP:Andaman
0.04037574 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana2
0.05832024 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir2
0.05858268 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir1
0.06037359 RUS_Kostenki14:Kostenki14
0.06228619 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir4
0.06299151 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir3
0.07247524 CZE_Vestonice16:Vestonice16
0.07275912 RUS_Yakutia_LUP:Khaiyrgas1
0.07301103 BEL_GoyetQ116-1:Q116-1
0.07362330 RUS_Ust_Kyakhta:UKY001
0.08994543 RUS_Ust_Belaya:I1526
0.09443569 RUS_Sakhalin_HG:I15926
0.09947452 ETH_4500BP:mota
0.12343265 BEL_GoyetQ2:GoyetQ2
0.20433294 ITA_Villabruna:Villabruna
Distance to: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_IUP:CC7-335
0.02158518 RUS_Ust_Ishim:Ust_Ishim
0.03534855 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana1
0.03749253 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP:Andaman
0.03905867 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana2
0.05719921 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir2
0.05813132 RUS_Kostenki14:Kostenki14
0.05903042 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir1
0.06127814 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir4
0.06237491 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir3
0.06892692 CZE_Vestonice16:Vestonice16
0.06953496 BEL_GoyetQ116-1:Q116-1
0.07296211 RUS_Yakutia_LUP:Khaiyrgas1
0.07317465 RUS_Ust_Kyakhta:UKY001
0.08887452 RUS_Ust_Belaya:I1526
0.09456469 RUS_Sakhalin_HG:I15926
0.10326161 ETH_4500BP:mota
0.12149033 BEL_GoyetQ2:GoyetQ2
0.20254005 ITA_Villabruna:Villabruna
Distance to: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_IUP:BB7-240
0.02621660 RUS_Ust_Ishim:Ust_Ishim
0.03425026 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP:Andaman
0.03939175 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana1
0.04209216 RUS_Yana_UP:Yana2
0.05946327 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir2
0.06134330 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir1
0.06160909 RUS_Kostenki14:Kostenki14
0.06262188 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir4
0.06380204 RUS_Sunghir:Sunghir3
0.06977922 BEL_GoyetQ116-1:Q116-1
0.07040476 CZE_Vestonice16:Vestonice16
0.08035011 RUS_Yakutia_LUP:Khaiyrgas1
0.08139103 RUS_Ust_Kyakhta:UKY001
0.09303263 RUS_Ust_Belaya:I1526
0.09889080 RUS_Sakhalin_HG:I15926
0.10023797 ETH_4500BP:mota
0.12148815 BEL_GoyetQ2:GoyetQ2
0.20196950 ITA_Villabruna:Villabruna
Target: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_MUP:BK-1653
Distance: 2.0349% / 0.02034911
44.4 BEL_GoyetQ116-1
30.4 CZE_Vestonice16
17.4 RUS_Sunghir
5.2 RUS_Ust_Ishim
2.6 RUS_Yana_UP
Target: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_IUP:F6-620
Distance: 1.8328% / 0.01832836
70.8 RUS_Ust_Ishim
12.4 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
8.2 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
5.0 ETH_4500BP
1.8 RUS_Ust_Belaya
1.8 RUS_Yakutia_LUP
Target: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_IUP:CC7-335
Distance: 1.7886% / 0.01788634
63.6 RUS_Ust_Ishim
18.0 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
8.0 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
4.4 RUS_Ust_Belaya
2.8 CZE_Vestonice16
1.8 ETH_4500BP
1.4 RUS_Yana_UP
Target: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_IUP:BB7-240
Distance: 1.9926% / 0.01992592
47.6 IND_Great_Andamanese_100BP
25.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim
12.4 CZE_Vestonice16
9.6 ETH_4500BP
4.0 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
1.4 RUS_Ust_Belaya
But CZE_Vestonice16 is descendant of Bacho_Kiro_IUP.
@@epoch
"The IUP samples also show affinity to Villabruna, but not to Vestonice16:
Chimp.REF BK_CC7-335 Czech_Vestonice16 Russia_Kostenki14.SG -0.0010051089380080428 ......"
-0.0017 is strictly zero.
That's not true, you can't do it the way you do it. Villabruna is not Vestonice16 or Kostenki14. These specimens do not lie on the same line.
Chimp.REF BK_BK-1653 Italy_North_Villabruna_HG Czech_Vestonice16 0.0011019444932030527 8.27666868936196e-4 1.3313864968636318 0.1830618701899705 512730
@ Vlad
Thanks. That is very intersting, esp. if confirmed by remains.
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