- a homeland in the Eneolithic North Caucasus, and the spread of Anatolian languages into West Asia with Maykop-related ancestry - a homeland in the North Pontic region, possibly within the Eneolithic Sredny Stog archeological culture, and the spread of Anatolian languages into West Asia via the Balkans.Both theories have support from ancient DNA. Some of it has already been published (for instance, see here). At this point, I can see myself firmly in the North Pontic camp, even if it turns out that North Pontic-related ancestry only made a fleeting impact on Bronze Age Anatolia. After all, there's no direct relationship between genes and languages, so to prove that Anatolian languages came from the North Pontic, there's no need for North Pontic-related ancestry to persist in Anatolia, as long as we have solid evidence that people with this type of ancestry moved there at the right time. In my mind, for now, the Maykop culture provides an excellent explanation for non-Indo-European influences in PIE, and there's no need to make it Indo-European speaking, let alone PIE speaking. See also... The PIE homeland controversy: June 2021 status report
Wednesday, February 2, 2022
The PIE homeland controversy: February 2022 status report
I think we'll see the emergence of two main competing proto-Indo-European (PIE) homeland theories over the next few years:
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 247 of 247these Hungarian Funnelbeakers had round heads like British Beakers (Brachcephalic)
@Romulus
They're not Funnel Beakers you dickhead.
Most of their ancestry is just modeled in qpAdm as Funnel Beaker-related. But as the authors admit, and as I pointed out before this preprint came out, Globular Amphora is a more likely source of this ancestry.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/01/para-turbo-balto-slavic.html
I thought:
a-ak-ni-iš
Ākni(s)-Agni(s)-Ugnis-Ignis
Azar-Pozar
Agni-Āguna-Aga-Āg (Indic)
In Rig veda 6.1 itself Agni is written as hyaghne/aghne/aghna :)
I am no expert so my opinion has no weight and what you said is what the mainline scholarship agrees with.
One of the reasons for this view of mine was;
Mitanni IA vocabulary ~1400bce
Rig Veda ~1700-1200bce
Avestan ~1200-1000bce
Old Persian ~500bce
Latin ~650bce
Old church Slavonic ~800ce
Old Purussian ~1369ce
Lithuanian ~1525ce
Despite a 3000 year late attestation compared to Sanskrit, Lithuanian shows remarkable closeness to Sanskrit in some areas.
Tu - Tu
Kas - Kaun
Kada - kab
Dantis - dant
Padas - Pair
Mirtis - Maut
Dumas - Dhuaan
Ka - Kya
As you can see Lithuanian shows remarkable closeness to Hindi. But for some reason words for Night and Horse in modern Indo-Aryan languages drifted away .....ashva became Ghoda & Night became Raat.
If Sanskrit was lost before modern European contact one would have argued about Hindi being derived from Lithuanian :)
@AshishKaull
Brugmann's law:
PIE. *o > II. *a
Slavic ‘Ogni’ > Vedic ‘Agni’
https://postimg.cc/q64jCgRQ
@Ashishkaull
Your list of words for fire is a mixture from two different root words/ eyymologies. It’s thought that they originally referred to fire in two different modes or aspects. Something like the prosaic and the divine, or the inanimate and the animate. Many modern IE languages use both forms (as in English: fire, power / ignite)
1. Proposed PIE root *h₁n̥gʷnis
The Russian etymological equivalent of “ugnis/agnis/ignis” would be in words like огонь (ogon) = fire, flame, (ie fire in its consuming aspect). &/or, угли (ugli) = coals.
2. Proposed PIE root *péh₂wr. (Giving modern IE words like pir, feuer, power)
This would far more likely be the root of the Russian word in your list.
David, in Hungary there is a genetic continuity from the Bronze Age in the CTS3402 line to the present day through the Iron Age (two Hunnic samples) and a close genetic link between the Hungarian BA population and modern Poles was demonstrated in the Cassidy study.
@ambron
The Cassidy paper showed a relatively close genetic relationship between one Bronze Age Hungarian genome and modern Poles, not an absolutely close one.
So this doesn't mean that Poles are derived from Bronze Age Hungarians, especially considering that this Bronze Age genome is an outlier. My guess is that the results reflected an elevated level of shared ancestry.
I don't know about genetic continuity in Hungary since the Bronze Age. There may be some continuity, but what you're seeing might also be an illusion due to the same lineages repeatedly moving into Hungary at different times.
Thanks 🙏
In that case Greek word for Fire is derived from *péh₂wr.
@Ashishkaulli
In Lithuania I came across the word “rata” used to mean a day, in the sense of a 24 hour period. That is, a day and a night. “Rata” (ratis etc) of course crops up in all sorts of Lithuanian words for wheel, lap, cycle etc. But perhaps raat is related to “rest”: and Sanskrit ramate रमते ?
Whatever the dictionary Lithuanian for horse is, I never heard it called anything else but “arklys” in Lithuania. Which is, etymologically, the horse considered as a plough horse or farm horse. (“ar” > Arimas = arable or crop land.)
This is how languages work; one aspect of a thing becomes dominant and other meanings fall away, so that what was once a general noun can take in a very specific, subsidiary or archaic flavour, and what was once specific becomes the general term.
There is another word in Lithuanian, “žirgas” which is used for the knight chess piece. I saw a dictionary definition of this as “steed”, a word archaic or poetic in English. Steed nowadays would only be used to conjure up a mental image of a mediaeval knight’s horse, but it was once much more general expression for a riding horse &/or stallion.
You might find that “ghoda” is a borrowing from a non-IE language, or from some other indo-european root that considers the horse as not something that runs/is fast but some other aspect, in the same way as “arklys” does. If you look at more specific expressions in the same Indo-Persian language (eg words for horses in breeding, or young/old horse, or racing, or cavalry, or carthorse) you may find the more familiar root.
Thanks 🙏
Any idea why "otĭče" feels out of place compared to Latin & Greek who cognate better with Vedic Pitra/Pitah.
It can't be from "átta"
If I understood what Brugmanns law meant.
@ Romulus. The round heads of Beakers in Britain are widely regarded now as a cultural modification, brought on by a few months head binding of some sort, likely cradleboarding, in infancy.
This is not regarded as contentious in the UK; the osteology studies that have been done are accepted as pretty convincing. The Achavanich beaker woman was a fairly extreme example of it. It seems to not have lasted very long in Britain.
Rob
Iron Age Meotic culture was also proposed as a NWC culture.
In Russian
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0#:~:text=%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0%20%E2%80%94%20%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0,%D0%B2%201%20%D1%82%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%8F%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%B4%D0%BE%20%D0%BD.&text=%D0%9D%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BC%D0%B8%20%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D1%8B%20%D0%B1%D1%8B%D0%BB%D0%B8%20%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%8B.
As for Koban culture. I have a feeling that they will become a substrate for proto Alans.
And judging by the large number of unpublished Y dna from early Alans they didn't impose themselves on NWC people.
So I doubt that Koban was NWC.
David, also in Ralph's study, Poles and Hungarians share most the common ancestors from the Bronze Age.
I am not saying that Poles derived from Bronse Age Hungarians, but that the Central European population was shaped in the Bronze Age and has not changed much genetically since then until today.
Oh! That's interesting
Common Sanskrit word is Ratri for Night. Had no idea Lithuanian had a similar word related to night.
I think "nakta" was the older Vedic word for night which cognate with European languages like "naktis" in Lithuanian.
I looked around and found "Ghoda" is derived from Sanskrit word "Ghoṭikā" for female horse :)
Telugu has "Gurram" but I doubt Sanskrit "Ghoṭikā" is derived from it. In my dardic-Indo-Aryan language we say Ghur/Gur.
I think the I2a-L1229 in Encrusted pottery is also found in a Vatya culture individual, but earlier in western Europe (British Neolithic, Wartberg). It hasn't been found in GAC, looks Rhenish in origin
might be worth trying rotating qpadm runs (e.g. X, EEF, steppe, where X= various HGs) to see if that supports a western origins (e.g pref for Loschbour), but I don't have time a.t.m
@EastPole
@AshishKaull Brugmann's law: PIE. *o > II. *a Slavic ‘Ogni’ > Vedic ‘Agni’
ogień
From Proto-Slavic *ogňь, from Proto-Balto-Slavic *ungnis, from Proto-Indo-European *h₁n̥gʷnis. Cognates include Lithuanian ugnis, Sanskrit अग्नि (agní) and Hittite (akniš, “name of a deity”), and Latin ignis (whence English ignition and igneous).
Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/ogňь
From Proto-Balto-Slavic *ungnis, from Proto-Indo-European *h₁n̥gʷnís. Cognate with Lithuanian ugnis, Sanskrit अग्नि (agní), Latin ignis.
ogień / oGieN’ (Polish / CWC) >
аго́нь (ahónʹ) / aHoN’ (Belarusian / CWC) >
огонь / aGoN’ (Russian / CWC Fatianovo)
огонь IPA: [ɐˈɡonʲ]
With all due respect, don't you think that you are just wasting your precious time here? Whoever was about to understand something has already done it. The rest will stubbornly stamp about in place and nothing will change it.
@Aram
"As for Koban culture. I have a feeling that they will become a substrate for proto Alans.
And judging by the large number of unpublished Y dna from early Alans they didn't impose themselves on NWC people."
There is more than 500 years between the end of the Koban culture and the migration of the Alans.
"proto-Alans" would be the Sarmatian tribes that lived northwest of the Aral Sea. Caucasian Alans were pretty far removed from the definition of "Proto".
@All
Let's keep this to ourselves, but word is that the mystery hunter-gatherer ancestry in the Kisapostag/Encrusted Pottery pops might be from a very late forager enclave in eastern Romania near the Black Sea coast.
“Any idea why "otĭče" feels out of place compared to Latin & Greek who cognate better with Vedic Pitra/Pitah.”
Nope. I could guess that it’s just dropped a “P”, but that would just be a guess.
In Scottish Gaelic, the word for father is athair (pronounced ahərʲ ).
The lack of a p or f here seems to be part of a broader pattern in Gaelic — with elements that would be “pat” in many other IE languages, in cognate sorts of words that would be expressed in English as “ex-“ or “out of” or sometimes “re-“ being expressed as “at” or “ath” (pronounced ah) in Gaelic. I think this is also largely true in Irish.
So that might be worth checking out, if other words that begin p/v/f in other IE languages start with a vowel instead.
@ Aram
Not sure what you mean exactly about Alans, or how they relate, but sure I guess Maeotian culture could be NWC. Koban group interacted with Cimmerians/ Early Scythians, was it around during Alan period ?
@ Dave
Do these guys have affinities with Rou_C and Maljaki Preslavets ?
@Rob
Apparently, they're fairly unique.
@AshishKaull
In that case Greek word for Fire is derived from *péh₂wr.
Pożar / Po+Z”/R”aR
From Proto-Slavic *požarъ.
pożar = fire (occurrence of fire in a certain place), conflagration
Żar / Z”/R”aR
From Proto-Slavic *žarъ, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰer- (“glow”).
żar = ember; glowing coals or wood, extreme heat
Żec / R”/Z”eC
From Proto-Slavic *žeťi (stem *žeg-), from earlier *gegti < *degti, from Proto-Balto-Slavic *degtéi, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰégʷʰeti.
żec impf (perfective zżec) = (obsolete, transitive) to burn Synonym: palić
ożegać impf, ożec pf, podżegać impf, podżec pf, zażegać impf, zażec pf
ożóg m, pożoga f, żagiew f, zgaga f, zgliszcze n
Żer / R”/Z”eR
From Proto-Slavic *žirъ.
żer m inan = prey, provender
żerować, żreć, zeżreć, pożerać,
żerowisko, żerowanie, żarłok, żarło, żarcie, pożarcie
There are also other forms of the so-called satem i centum, like:
Żerca / R”/Z”eR+Ca, Żertwa / R”/Z”eR+TWa, Żerdź / Z”eRDz’…
Jar / JaR, Jary / JaRy, Jaryło / JaR+yL”o, Jarzyć / JaR”/Z”+yC’, Zajarzyć / Za+JaR”/Z”+yC’, Jarzyny / JaR”/Z”+yNy…
Gar / GaR, Gorzeć / GoR”+eC’, Grzać / GR”+aC’, Gród / Gro’D, Góra / Go’Ra...
War / WaR, Warzyć / WaR”+yC’, Warzywa / WaR”+yWa, Wywar / Wy+WaR...
@Wee e
In Lithuania I came across the word “rata” used to mean a day, in the sense of a 24 hour period. That is, a day and a night. “Rata” (ratis etc) of course crops up in all sorts of Lithuanian words for wheel, lap, cycle etc. But perhaps raat is related to “rest”: and Sanskrit ramate रमते ?
Wrota / WRoTa
From Proto-Slavic *vorta.
wrota = gate
Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/vьrtěti
From Proto-Balto-Slavic *wirtētei, *wirtei from Proto-Indo-European *wr̥t-, from Proto-Indo-European *wert-. Baltic cognates include Lithuanian vir̃sti (“to fall, to collapse”), 1sg. virčiù, Latvian vḕrst (“to direct, to steer”), Old Prussian wīrst (“becomes”, 3sg.). Indo-European cognates include Sanskrit वर्तते (vártate, “to turn, to roll”), Latin vertō (“to turn”), Proto-Germanic *werþaną (“to become”).
Obrót / o+BRo’T
From Proto-Slavic *obvortъ.
Obrót = turn, rotation, revolution (turning of an object around an axis)
That probably answers my follow up for the root of "Nār" sometimes used to denote fire in Urdu, I guess.
There is a Y7240 in the Iron Gate (I4878, 5800-5700 BC), this is the sister subclades of L1229.
Rob
My error.
I was wanting to say that we don't have right now large number of Y dna from Koban culture, to make definitive judgements.
But via early Alan samples from the same region we can have some idea how Koban was looking.
Just because those early Alans were a mixture of Iranian nomads and locals, who themselves were mostly of Koban origin.
Well excuuuse me for actually reading these papers and repeating the conclusions of the authors. The Y-DNA of those samples does certainly support a GAC origin though so I agree. With respect to the round heads of British Beakers being a result of cradleboarding, that is nonsense it is without a doubt genetic.
These Hungarian I2s have the same levels of Steppe ancestry as the Mycenaeans ~10%. Yamnaya_Bulgaria_Outlier Bul4 is interesting and probably related to these samples, it has more Steppe ancestry at about 35% but that is still very low compared to other Yamnaya and Corded Ware Samples. GAC, these Hungarians, and the I2 in Yamnaya (RISE552/Bul4) all fall on the same branch of I2 which has never been found in the Mesolithic Steppe but has been found in the Serbian Iron Gates samples, and also some Bohemian and Latvian samples.
@Davidski
Do you still believe the branch of I2 in RISE552/Bul4 is from Steppe foragers? I never bought that. That GAC ancestry is ubiquitous in Corded Ware and Beaker samples is evidence enough these samples originated in GAC.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10057/
@Wee
I beg the pardon of other forumers because this aspect is not wellcome here, but somethings have to be said:
The attribution of brachycephally+planoccipitally to only cradling deformations are out of sense; it records me the eternal fight between pots and bones among British archeologists.
Among current people allover Europe are found, rarely or commonly, skulls of this so called 'dinaric' sort, among people who don't practise these old traditions of cradling. (Eastern Scotland, Western Norway, Germany, Frisia and evidently Balkans and otehrs I forget here.
I suppose we have in fact a natural set of features genetically inherited in some people, by homozygotous or heterozygotous heritages,and that have been later "imitated" by cradling artifices, which could be the result of an elite domination where these features were raltively common, creating a beauty reference for other people without these natural predispositions???
By the fact, Bell Beakers of Brittain and Ireland were not all of them of this types, It should be knowed; if I don't mistake the most of the skulls CI's were between 74 and 89, ATW dolichco-mesocephally (often of 'corded' CWC type of Coon) to hyperbrachycephally, and among subbrachycephals, someones didn't have the planoccipitally, and were of the so called hyper-robust 'borreby' type
@Davidski, interesting suggestion! Cool if true. I think this is exactly a zone that's been proposed as a likely one by some (Rob? And others?). If there is a cultural (material or purely cultural) change in the LCA/EBA that allowed some groups to expand, maybe it would make sense that a group in this zone might have more chance to learn that culture and be more likely to survive and expand itself?
@ Romulus
''GAC, these Hungarians, and the I2 in Yamnaya (RISE552/Bul4) all fall on the same branch of I2 ''
Hold-up, these Encrusted pottery are I2a-L1229. That's I2a2a1a (2016, I don't use the 2019/20 crap conventions)
GAC is different - I2a2a1b2; Yamnaya/ DDII is I2a2a1b1
Theyre all different lines, not the same
@ moesby.
As people all over China know, all it takes to produce a decent amount of brachycephaly is to have a young baby sleep on its back. They just put a wee pillow either side of the head — and presto, “positional plagiocephaly” within a very few months.
The difference between round-headedness and some other forms of skull modification, is that gravity does a lot of it for you.
A change like carrying babies on the back in a sling during the day while working, rather than placing them face up in a basket would affect head shaping to some degree. Such a thing could well have been an adaptation to Scotland’s crappier weather — almost perpetually wet ground, and cool, high-humidity weather. Maybe they had more sense than mediaeval people and chose hygiene over swaddling — our weather means a “wet” baby more than a few feet from the fire quickly gets chilled.. Or maybe beakers adopted family sleeping on a deep mattress (see neolithic Orkney) — baby sleeping with the mother. Maybe they stopped using some particular associated leather baby cap or headband and started using more practical (in our conditions) and forgiving wool instead.
I did not mean to imply that naturally brachycephalic people didn’t exist at all here in Scotland, that ONLY modification produced it.
But in terms of its frequency in a population — yes, it was modification. The fact is, there is no noticeable roundheaded tendency whatever in modern people in that area, any more than anywhere else in Scotland. Like the rest of us, they tend to dolichocephalic a bit more than many European populations.
The north east of Scotland is itself a complex mosaic of beaker influences, varying almost from river valley to river valley: both from “Dutch” beakers and direct from Ireland. They were early in producing bronze, in terms of this island, and got their copper from Ross Island“great glen” route that connects the Moray Firth direct with the more southerly west coast; from where it is a short hop to north east Ireland. (The same route in reverse was a proselytisers’ and pilgrims’ route in early-Christian times.)
@ moesby.
As people all over China know, all it takes to produce a decent amount of brachycephaly is to have a young baby sleep on its back. They just put a wee pillow either side of the head — and presto, “positional plagiocephaly” within a very few months.
The difference between round-headedness and some other forms of skull modification, is that gravity does a lot of it for you.
A change like carrying babies on the back in a sling during the day while working, rather than placing them face up in a basket would affect head shaping to some degree. Such a thing could well have been an adaptation to Scotland’s crappier weather — almost perpetually wet ground, and cool, high-humidity weather. Maybe they had more sense than mediaeval people and chose hygiene over swaddling — our weather means a “wet” baby more than a few feet from the fire quickly gets chilled.. Or maybe beakers adopted family sleeping on a deep mattress (see neolithic Orkney) — baby sleeping with the mother. Maybe they stopped using some particular associated leather baby cap or headband and started using more practical (in our conditions) and forgiving wool instead.
I did not mean to imply that naturally brachycephalic people didn’t exist at all here in Scotland, that ONLY modification produced it.
But in terms of its frequency in a population — yes, it was modification. The fact is, there is no noticeable roundheaded tendency whatever in modern people in that area, any more than anywhere else in Scotland. Like the rest of us, they tend to dolichocephalic a bit more than many European populations.
The north east of Scotland is itself a complex mosaic of beaker influences, varying almost from river valley to river valley: both from “Dutch” beakers and direct from Ireland. They were early in producing bronze, in terms of this island, and got their copper from Ross Island“great glen” route that connects the Moray Firth direct with the more southerly west coast; from where it is a short hop to north east Ireland. (The same route in reverse was a proselytisers’ and pilgrims’ route in early-Christian times.)
@SKribHa
I’m a little confused by your post. It seems a bit gnomic.
Really the subject wasn’t Lithuanian as such, or the etymology or “rata/ratas/ratis” in Lithuanian — but the question posed by Ashishkaull’s post about some Indo-Iranian languages (which I myself am clueless about): the word “raat”, “night”— that it seemed to depart from “naktis” and similar. I suggested that raat might be either related to these “cycle” words or else to IE root (*ros / *res?) for rest, tranquility (ie night synonymous with rest / sleep time).
Tbh I assumed the Lithuanian etymology of ratas (wheel, circle, cycle etc) was pretty straightforward: PIE *hrōt-o-s
Anyway, I think I’ve derailed davidski’s thread enough by now… (sorry!)
@Rob
They are different , I did not say they were the same, but they are not incompatible with a common origin. That is why I posted a link to the Y-Full SNP GAC, Yamnaya, and these Encrusted Pottery samples all share, CTS10057. Given Davidski apparently thinks the Encrusted Pottery are GAC derived, why would we assume another branch of this same group was any different especially considering as I ponited out that Encrusted Pottery and Yamnaya Bul 4 share a similar autosomal composition. There are no I-CTS10057 samples from the Steppe. This is a group from the Iron Gates Mesolithic that migrated north to form GAC and then left descendants among groups deriving ancestry from GAC.
@ Romulus
L1229 isnt under L10057, is it ? On the other hand, the split of GAC & Yamnaya-assoc I2a2 lines is Late -Paleo / Mesolithic.
GAC are so far patrilinearly monolithic, so there is no evidence that Encrusted pottery guys derive from GAC. As I said, the earliest findings of L1229 is from western Europe, not GAC in POland or Ukraine. but maybe they were all foudn in some cryptic Late-Paleo / Meso groups in western Black Sea, future might tell.
The fact that Bul4 & EncrPot might share a similar autosomal mix could be coincidental
''There are no I-CTS10057 samples from the Steppe'
Yes there are since the Neolithic, see it all along the Dnieper.
@ Aram
Understood . What is the ancestor of Maeotic group ?
@Wee e
As of Euro-Indo-Iranian Post-PIE CWC connections, such as Brugmann's law, I presented some Polish words based on the root (W/B)+RT, which itself describes repetitive revolve / rotate / turn activities, such as night and day cycle or gate rotation, etc. That is all.
nevermind I was getting L1229 and Y11229 mixed up , these encrusted pottery samples are not related
My apologies for spamming comments
here are the samples related to the Encrusted Pottery L1229:
https://i.imgur.com/T8IIToU.png
very interesting, many of the Tollense Valley samples belong to L1229 (and upstream highly related BY1003), as well as 2 Vatya, a Maros, a Langobard, and an Iron Age Italian (Dauninian).
My grandmother just spoke some words I have no clue what it meant. She told me that they used to speak like this as kids.
"Chergi kirgya Nargav churgui?"
means "che kya nav chui?" in Koshur.
"What is your name?" in English.
Any idea what language is it?
"Chergi kirgya Nargav churgui?" Is it Indo-European/Ancient language/Chinese related language.
@ Romulus
check some of the Wartberg (Immel) & British_N (Olalde, Brace). Also on that line
@AshishKaull
For shizzle my fizzle, my grandma would say this as:
Atway izay oryay amenay?
It is Pig Latin. Or Pig Sanskrit?
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