Early contact between late farming and pastoralist societies in southeastern EuropeBy the way, I think it's hilarious how the authors totally ignored the fact that the North Pontic region is located in Eastern Europe. Instead they used the term Eurasian steppes, suggesting that Western Steppe Herders (WSH) may have come not from Eastern Europe but from some part of Asia. Haha. See also... Dear Sandra, Wolfgang...we have a problem
Wednesday, July 19, 2023
Early contact between farmers and pastoralists in ancient Europe (Penske et al. 2023)
I can't wait to get stuck into the data from the new Penske et al. paper. This is likely to be the main topic on this blog for the next few weeks, or perhaps even months.
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82 comments:
Considering that the paper has now been published, does anyone have the labels for these G25 coords?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ln0BMQErte_LXjtjfYXwwCOUzr3E3cyX/view?usp=sharing
Pastoralists and farmers from the same region interacting with each other.
It is not a big deal.
Huge deal.
1. Baltic_BA and samples from this publication is basically all you need to model modern Slavs north of (and from northern) Carpathians. Average distance - 0.008.
Distance Baltic_EST_BA Early_contact Target
0,00775416 63,6 36,4 Belarusian
0,00827025 49,6 50,4 Polish
0,00776515 38,8 61,2 Slovakian
0,00767906 59,0 41,0 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0,01100470 56,6 43,4 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0,01012235 50,6 49,4 Ukrainian_Lviv
0,00551203 58,8 41,2 Ukrainian_Rivne
0,00852103 59,0 41,0 Ukrainian_Sumy
0,00634803 44,0 56,0 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0,00887622 57,4 42,6 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0,00818530 53,7 46,3 Average
2. A lot of samples already seems to have the "Balto-Slavic drift".
3. Moreover there are two related individuals (YUN037, YUN038) with apparently I2a1a2b1a - CTS4002, radiocarbon dated to the early Bronze Age (2838 BC).
@Arza
What's the ID of that Baltic sample?
Ah, I see what you did.
The problem with this approach is that it fails the plausibility test.
That is, it's not plausible that such people lived together in Iron Age Poland or Ukraine. We need direct evidence for this sort of thing, and this isn't it.
Samples from Iron Age and Middle Age Poland and Ukraine will decide this.
@Rob
You can't post anything potentially defamatory in the comments here (although you're free to do that at your own blog).
@ Arza
People are over-thinking this “mystical HG” thing
It’s just a cline between Narva & Dnieper HG
Somewhere between there is something which admixed to form Baltic LBA profile
@ Sam
“No big deal”
I believe you are one of the Noobs who critiqued my suggestions at this model years ago.
walk back to your YouTube cartoons.
Why do aDNA scientists in the year of our lord 2023 still treat haplogroup C as "Mesolithic"? It was obviously an Anatolian Neolithic marker along with G2a, H-P96, etc. The fact that is shares a super old TMRCA with some Paleolithic Europeans is irrelevant for the time period they examine.
@ Alex
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. I think places like Dobrudja had genuine Meso Hg C
@ Dave
what I said was Gimbutas was a nice lass, but her formulation was ultimately wrong as the fall of “old Europe”. Modern scholars like Mallory, Anthony and Kristiansen have taken up her version, but they’re quite wrong. Sad thing is they don’t even realise it because they exist in the beliefs of their own expertise . Of course earlier cherry picked sample said and dubious frameworks didn’t help. It’s not defamatory to state that a lack of honesty was at play here.
So we now have it clear- the early kurgan cultures arose as a process of admixture of farmers and Hgs. No “persistent frontier”
Target: EastPole_scaled
Distance: 2.5222% / 0.02522215
41.2 POL_Strzyzow_EBA_o
35.2 POL_MBA_Trzciniec
14.0 YUN041.trim2
9.6 YUN025.trim2
Baltic BA samples were already available before this publication.
What is actually interesting is whether it is possible that G25 makes this Baltic drift appear stronger than it actually is.
I'm glad that now with the dates we see some things that make sense; mixed Steppe_En samples emerging in the 5th millennium from 4400 BCE onwards in the earliest samples, roughly contemporaneous to Khvalynsk and the Southern Steppe Eneolithic milk-drinking hunters at Progress. We don't see them at earlier Varna or any stuff that would be harder to gel into our model of how and when Steppe ancestry formed and how interactions happened. (Earlier Varna seems to show Ukraine_N/Serbia_Iron_Gates mix, I think, which seems consistent wth plotting).
We also see I think a couple R1b-M269 precursors; so far (barring what we see at other sites) does seem more like R1a going "boom" (as Davidski put it) was a bit more contingent and chance, where the R1b-M269 explosion was something that we might have predicted a bit more (had we been some Nostradamus of the 5th Millennium with access to modern y-dna sampling).
Only skimmed it but I'm not totally sure if the authors' modelling really makes sense; again, I agree with their observation that models involving Caucasus_En probably *work* the way they're using them but there really does not seem to be a compelling reason why they must be the models to be used, in the admixture patterns we see, and it's not necessarily parsimonious. I remain a fence dweller on that topic, until we can actually directly if there were any interactions in the samples from Ayshin Ghalichi's awaited paper and so on.
@Davidski, re; labels, here are some options with them merged in that might give you a starting point:
A) With the literal labels from the supplement: https://pastebin.com/44UFDSE0 ; these are mostly the sample IDs three-letter code, with the affix of _CA or _EBA where appropriate.
B) With the labels from the supplement and a date from the supplement, in case this helps you decide a suitable group ID: https://pastebin.com/gMKf8qYW
C) Attempt to convert from the paper's labels to "G25 style" labels: https://pastebin.com/rTZDqBZc
(Here's what these C labels look like in some G25 Vahaduo views: https://imgur.com/a/SF5a792)
I would note that some of these individuals are twins/twice resampled individuals (e.g. I think PIE017 and PIE019 are like this).
Quick Top 5 Ancient Population Distance Averages for All Samples (Preliminary G25 Coordinates): https://imgur.com/a/XabcLf7
The folks on the steppe cline here are quite different to the usual cline between Yamnaya/CWC with Northern/Central Euro farmers groups, with more Euro HG, which I think is what is driving the closest population in some instances to be Iron Age or Medieval populations even, from SE Europe largely. Those seem to be the closest proxies in the sampling we have so far for some of these early mixtures of Steppe and Balkan EEF ancestry (although distances are not great).
Ukraine_Usatovo_Majaky_EBA:MAJ004 from ~2700 BCE matches closest to Iran_HajjiFiruz_BA for example. The position of the sample is unusual and means she's reaching for that. (Others end up with closest matches to early medieval Bulgarians or outliers from Late Antiquity France, Scythian period Moldova etc).
I gave them labels
https://pastebin.com/CuYYjXXX
Nevermind I hadn't updated the page before Matt posted his labels. I'd recommend those over mine perhaps.
@All
I'm not at a place where I can check too many things in this paper at the moment, and won't be till the weekend, so I've got some questions.
What is their definition of Steppe Eneolihic and Caucasus Eneolithic? That is which samples did they use in their models to represent these populations?
What outgroups did they use, particularly when modeling Caucasus Yamnaya, Ozera Yamnaya and Samara Yamnaya?
Which individuals do they classify as Caucasus Yamnaya?
@Davidski, it's in Supplementary Table E; to quickly reproduce the two you've asked about:
Steppe Eneolithic
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic - PG2001
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic - PG2004
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic - VJ1001
Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic - I0433
Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic - I0122
Caucasus Eneolithic/Maykop
Russia_LateMaikop - SA6002/I11133
Russia_Caucasus_LateMaikop - MK5004
Russia_Caucasus_Eneolithic - I2056
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya - I6266
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya - I6267
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya - I6268
Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya - I6272
(This is not really Caucasus_Eneolithic as they have to bulk it up with Maokop; it may be that Ghalichi's paper will have more such samples but for this one, it's mainly represented by later Maikop).
Also all, another quick Vahaduo West Eurasia plot with quick split of those samples by era (CA, Ukraine_Eneo, EBA) - https://imgur.com/a/vwwfIbc
Ukraine_Usatovo_Majaky_EBA:MAJ004 from ~2700 BCE shouldn’t Usatavo by definition . It’s just Yamnaya , and not even early Yamnaya
In addition to Matt’s summary, we need to mention the important detail uniparentals. These Cernavoda and Usatavo males seem to be G2a, I2a1 I think there’s a J2a1 there too. Puts an important new perspective on things
Not sure what they mean by “ancestral to R1b xM269”. Truly ancestral or simply a different clade (although they did specify V88 when present). Would be interested to see what ftdna make of it
@Matt
How come your coords are different?
Bulgaria_Boyanovo_EBA:BOY001.merge,0.111547,0.101553,0.033187,0.08721,-0.018465,0.036535,0.004465,-0.000692,-0.045404,-0.054124,-0.000487,0.004046,-0.006392,-0.017616,0.035966,0.010872,-0.014733,-0.003547,-0.006662,0.007629,0.007362,0.000247,0.007641,0.01699,0.000958
BOY001.merge,0.117238,0.091398,0.04714,0.109498,-0.021235,0.040439,0.001175,0.000923,-0.043973,-0.065241,-0.00065,-0.002698,-0.004906,-0.028075,0.035559,0.01074,-0.01004,-0.010008,0.003142,0.005878,0.000873,0.004946,0.00493,0.015062,-0.011137
@Norfern-Ostrobothnian, I think there are some arguments for either and yours are worth having a look at and considering both (e.g. is it better to include some of EBA Majaky samples under Yamnaya or not etc). Up to Davidski!
If mine were used, compared to the list upthread, I think there is an argument for splitting the Ukraine_Usatovo_Majaky_Eneolithic into a set A and B, one of which contains MAJ002, MAJ003, MAJ008 and another containing MAJ009, MAJ020, MAJ023. Because then you get a set which are close to Yamnaya / Sredni-Stog preview and a set which are more obviously deeply admixed. This is a lumping/splitting question of course.
The rumoured Usatavo related j2b2 is still missing. Makes me want to swing back to my original idea that its a rare East Alpine Neolithic lineage (?)
@Davidski, think I took from the first set you shared, but if they've become jumbled or there's been a subsequent update, use either N-O's set or use my labels with the coordinates that are current.
@Matt
Ah, OK, if possible please use these coords for now.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ln0BMQErte_LXjtjfYXwwCOUzr3E3cyX/view?usp=sharing
Although the official genotype data will probably drop soon, so feel free to wait for the coords from that.
Balkans is IMHO the IndoHittie homeland.
The Anatolian branch lacks the steppe related aspects that are present in PIE, because it stayed in Balkans and never went to the steppe in the first place.
Later it moved to Anatolia, leaving a substrate in the incoming Greek.
@Sam
There were no steppe pastoralists prior to this interaction, they emerged from it.
This is the biggest deal of them all.
@Davidski, OK, remapping my labels with those coordinates - https://pastebin.com/3UR4T0yr
No differences in position between groups, but some samples switched, so possibly this is my fault of a mis-sort in one of my spreadsheets. The obvious one I saw was that the outliers from Romania Gumelnita are actually PIE061 and PIE06061, who are the twins/same sample I was remembering.
Apologies to all; don't use the previous sheets, or go looking for any exact correlations between samples in the previous post upthread. (I'll bin those posts if anyone thinks they're misleading or leave them if the thread wouldn't make sense without them).
Also disregard what I said about splitting the Usatovo_Majaky_Eneolithic into two sets; that was due to a confusion between the EBA Majaky samples which are Yamnaya like with some of the Eneolithic ones.
Top 5s (actually correct samples this time!) - https://imgur.com/a/wsZwxxd
@Rob
I definitely wouldn't say it's awesome.
Actually, it's goddamn awful in parts. Wait and see.
@ Dave
Sure but dont get too fussed on question of Majkop contributions, etc.
Let's celebrate the article for what it is - a major shutdown of pseudo-narratives. In fact, i think it could go farther, but that's probably a job for crazy Rob
If people are playing around with PCAs, I'd suggest look at it chronologically. Limit it to pre-Yamnaya samples to see what we obtain.
For ex here, with Cernavoda and Usatavo (excluding the late Majaki's which are from 2700 bc) The Real Steppe
((f) = female)
I would also include the Csongrad and the Decea M. samples too eventually.
@Vilmaris Interesting idea, there are a few things to consider though. Greek isn't an independent entity and Anatolian remaining in the Balkans would have come in contact with Greco-Albanian or at least Greco-Phrygian.
Then, the Anatolian substratum in Greek is geographically located north of the Pindos mountains (Georgiev 1960), in the opposite direction than one would expect in such a scenario.
@Rob Also keep in mind that Gimbutas, Mallory etc were also operating under the assumption that they are the descendants (in the sense of "my ancestor :) we wuz yamnaya") of steppe populations. Especially in their earlier works. So all the importance placed on Yamnaya and adjacent cultures by them was also motivated by narcissism and a desire to boost their own self-esteem while remaining "academical".
@Davidski
Interestingly they seem to go for a Southern Arc lite model where Yamnaya have both GAC and Meshoko ancestry.
They appear to argue that Meshoko is a late comer in the region albeit apparently CHG was present in the CA or even Neolithic.
Do you think this model is plausible as a compromise of the sources of ANF/West Asian ancestry in Yamnaya?
south* of the Pindos mountains
@gamerz_J
Their models for Yamnaya are bullshit.
I'll explain why exactly in a new blog entry on the weekend.
@ Orpheus
''also keep in mind that Gimbutas, Mallory etc were also operating under the assumption that they are the descendants (in the sense of "my ancestor :) we wuz yamnaya") of steppe populations.''
I didnt obtain that impression. Quite the contrary, Gimbutas took a negative light on the 'eastern steppe nomads''. Mallory is a nice man, just chose a direction which he thought was 'less wrong', but didnt think of rationalising the data because he continued to subscribe to the binary 'old Europe' vs 'steppe' caricature and to outlandish claims of early nomaads in the Volga-Ural region.
As for more contemporary synthetists, theyre fairly underwhelming although they have an appeal to quasi-anthro enthusiasists on the internet. Seems like they thought of a story first, then tried to make the data fit it by publishing Yamnaya Samara data first instead of in a rational, chronologically progressive manner. We all know who pulled the strings there..
''Then, the Anatolian substratum in Greek is geographically located north of the Pindos mountains (Georgiev 1960), in the opposite direction than one would expect in such a scenario.
''
Did Georgiev really say that it is only confined to the south of Pindos ?
You may also look at Finkelberg and dutch linguists who see an Anatolian substrate across the Aegean
@ DW - any chance you can add PIE_7 to G25.
Not good coverage (< 0.05x), but is an interesting sample, post 4000 bc from Pietrele, Y-hg J2a.
@alex
C1a2 is a typical WHG lineage that was incorporated along with other markers into European Neolithic cultures - the fact that it has also been documented in Anatolia does not mean that it reached Europe with the farmers.
*What is funny is that in the year of our Lord 2023 there are still people who believe that M269 originated in the steppes. All those who thought that usatovo & cernavoda were going to be the solution to their problems have been wrong again (it is not a coincidence but a usual bad habit) because in Ukrainian eneolitic there is no R1b-M269 either.
*However, there is R1b-L754 in neolithic farmers in Romania (Penske, 2023 & Gelabert, 2023) to which we must add an Iron Gates HG from Vlasac (Serbia, Allentfot, 2022). In other words, L754 followed a similar path to C1a2 and V88, i.e. lineages of the HGs that were incorporated into the cultures of old Europe (I don't think anyone should be surprised). Some L754 reached Ukraine (Dereivka & now Usatovo-Majaky).
*Very early link between farmers and steppe-Samples from neolithic Bulgaria have mostly ANF ancestry and are on the same line (L699) as I6103 (4.889 BC) Khvalynsk & RISE552 Yamnaya.
PIE061 (4.664 BC)-Pietrele-Magura Gorgana, Romania-HapY-I2a1b-Y5606
VAR030 (4.458 BC)-Varna, neolithic, Varna culture, Bulgaria-HapY-I2-M223>Y3259>L701
Ukraine- KTL006 (4.058 BC)-Kartal, Cernavoda culture-HapY-I2-M223>Y3259>L701>Y5606>L699
& KTL001 (3.423 BC)-HapY-I2-L701>Y5606>L699>S12195
*E1b-V13 & J2b-L283, Albanians and other Balkanites have to keep looking for those lineages in the steppes, I am afraid they are going to be disappointed again. Maybe they should look in Anatolia at the beginning of the Bronze Age, if they are so keen on linking those markers with Indo-European they would have been right if that language reached the Balkans from Asia Minor. There is neither V13 nor L283 in the European neolithic cultures nor in the steppes.simply massive founder effects in the Bronze Age and the Iron Age
@Gaska "typical WHG lineage" and yet there's not been a single WHG sample found with it. But we've seen it in multiple samples from Anatolia and only appears in Europe along with Barcin-type ancestry.. One of the peer reviewers even questioned them on it and they still kept the error in the final version.
Feel free to point out where I'm wrong:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/C-V3163/
@ Gaska
''E1b-V13 & J2b-L283, Albanians and other Balkanites have to keep looking for those lineages in the steppes, I am afraid they are going to be disappointed again. Maybe they should look in Anatolia at the beginning of the Bronze Age, if they are so keen on linking those markers with Indo-European they would have been right if that language reached the Balkans from Asia Minor. There is neither V13 nor L283 in the European neolithic cultures nor in the steppes.simply massive founder effects in the Bronze Age and the Iron Age''
E-V13 or its precursor is found across Europe, albeit in sporadic fashion, from Neolithic/ Chalcolithic Iberia to Trypillia (kinda rhymes), whislt it hasnt surfaced in Anatolia apart from one sample from a PhD based on RFLPs years ago. A more concerted concentration is found across the Carpatho-Danube region, with people currently left to debate which exact river valley it expanded from during the LBA-IA transtion. In modern Near East, it appears in minorities such as Druze which are Christian and thus have some kind of European / Roman link
J2b2 is indeed a bit more of a mystery. It is undoubtedly from the southern Caucasus deeply, but its path to northern Serbia remains to be seen. From there it obviously became Europeanised and spread along the adriatic adopting quasi-kurgan burials, but still very different to actual Yamnaya barrows.
@ Alex
C-V3163 has two major clades.
C-PH428 is that found in Pinarbasi and Anatolian Farmers, as well as European Farmer derivatives. Given that Anatolia was unihabited before the Ice Age, and it falls within Gravettian / Aurgnacian C1a, it moved there from Europe.
The second clade C-BY1463 isnt found in Anatolia. It is found in in high-Hg admixed groups from the lower Danube region.
so you're either way we look at it, C1a is a European hunter-gatherer marker.
@Alex
Well, I think you are totally wrong, Pinarbasi belongs to a different clade from the European Hgs. Of course we have C1a2 among the WHGs, both in the Gravettian, Solutrean, Magdalenian and mesolithic. Many European farmers are PH428 like Pinarbasi, but many others (Malak Preslavets, Urcizeni, Verteba cave etc) are directly descended from the WHGs. Some examples, you think they are Anatolian farmers?
DLV006 (28.978 AC)-Dolni Vestonice, Gravettian culture, Moravia-HapY-C1a2-V20
GER003 (25.199 AC)-Mollet III, Gravettian culture, Iberia-HapY-C-M130-V20
MLZ005 (21.000 AC)-Cueva de Malalmuerzo, Solutrean, Iberia-HapY-C1a2-V20>FT368070
MAZ003 (13.556 BC)-Maszycka, Magdalenian, Poland-HapY-C1a2-V20>FT368070
BRAÑA2 (5.865 BC)-La Braña-Arintero, Iberia-HapY-C1a2-V20>FT368070>A22291
@Rob
Yeah, E1b-L618 is already present in many European cultures-Cardium Pottery (Croatia, Spain), LBK (Austria), Sopot & Lengyel cultures (Hungary), Varna culture (Bulgaria), Michelsberg culture (Saulager-France & Bruchsal Aue-Germany), Ukraine etc.. but none of them are E1b-V13 (except the Iberian sample which is doubtful)-After that, and with thousands of farmers analyzed, nothing at all until Iron Age Thracians. There is nothing similar in Russia, the Ukrainian steppes or the Caucasus either, so they will have to start forgetting about cremation and other excuses and start thinking that maybe it entered the Balkans from Anatolia in the early Iron Age. Or maybe the marker has suffered a gigantic bottleneck for 4,000 years and it is practically impossible to find any trace of the lineage. It would be a case similar to R1b-M269 or I1.
J2b-L283 is a different case because there is an Early Bronze Age sample in the southern Caucasus, the route to the Balkans seems more Anatolian than Ukrainian.The fact that the Serbian samples are very steppe-like does not mean that they originate from Yamnaya or any other steppe like culture
And regarding M269, where can we keep looking, Smyadovo is an anecdote?
PIE061 (4.664 BC)-Pietrele-Magura Gorgana, Romania-HapY-I2a1b-Y5606
VAR030 (4.458 BC)-Varna, neolithic, Varna culture, Bulgaria-HapY-I2-M223>Y3259>L701
Ukraine- KTL006 (4.058 BC)-Kartal, Cernavoda culture-HapY-I2-M223>Y3259>L701>Y5606>L699
& KTL001 (3.423 BC)-HapY-I2-L701>Y5606>L699>S12195
That I-M223 expanded from Mesolithic Italy is well known, not only I have a map I can not post here, but look at all the trees, samples from 10000 ybp.
@Gaska
“J2b-L283 is a different case because there is an Early Bronze Age sample in the southern Caucasus, the route to the Balkans seems more Anatolian than Ukrainian.The fact that the Serbian samples are very steppe-like does not mean that they originate from Yamnaya or any other steppe like culture”
Nal’chik is where the EBA Caucasian J2b L283 was found. KDC001 (Kudachurt), which is in Kabardino Balkaria on the north side of the Caucasus, co located with Meshoko. The only ancient L283 ever found south of the Caucasus was in Transcaucasia in Armenia called RISE408 from the LBA, affiliated with the Lchashen Metsamor culture which descends from Trialeti further north.
It is absent from all ancient samples from Turkey and is virtually non existent in living samples there apart from those who moved to Turkey from Adriatic West Balkan lineages. It has a star-like phylogeny much like other steppe related groups, which clearly distinguishes this lineage. Additionally, I see a HRV_Cetina sample under J2b L283 Z38240 has been modeled on Anthrogenica as:
Target: HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
Distance: 1.4320% / 0.01432034 | R4P
54.0 Ukraine_Eneolithic_CernavodăI_KartalA
16.0 FRA_MN_GRG
15.4 UKR_N_o
14.6 Bulgaria_C_Gumelniţa_Yunatsite
With many branches dated between 5600-5100 YBP, including a paraclade that appears to have ripped up the Danube into western Hungary, it strikes me as the sort of male mediated migration across the southern Ukrainian steppe from the NW Caucasus discussed in the paper. There are very well established ties between the N. Caucasus and the eastern variant of Sredny Stog (Novodanilovka, Azov Dnieper, and Mariupol) and a subsequent movement of that group into the western steppe and the Balkans.
@Rob Gimbutas was very eager to complain about some supermen that she can trace her origins back to destroying her utopic vision, that's my point. Her "complaints" can be summed up as, "boohoo such terrible fate for the people that I'm supposed to be a heir to were so great and powerful that they btfo the poor previous inhabitants of my lands :("
Archaeologists have the habit of writing fantasies to spice things up about their finds (and sell books), but they rarely identify with the people they prop up. This is one of these rare cases
"You may also look at Finkelberg and dutch linguists who see an Anatolian substrate across the Aegean"
Yep, I have mentioned her works in my blog about Minoans. In her 1997 article she mentions that the Aegean substratum is from an Anatolian language and geographically corresponds with EBA Aegean cultures
@Rob
PIE007 is same as PIE016 and PIE031, they are in the G25 as PIE71631.
According to the supplement he is Cernavoda, from a grave west of the Pietrele tell, buried flexed on left side facing north, with a bronze dagger and a dog. Genetically close to the earlier Copper Age people from the same site, the study lumps him in with them, but he seems to have slightly elevated Caucasus affinity. Maybe a smidge of Steppe, but not necessary.
83% BGR_Pietrele_CA, 17% TUR_Ilipinar_CA - 2.36%. Basically identical fit with 12% Arslantepe LCA instead, or marginally worse with 4% Progress CA, 4% Yamnaya Samara, 6% Maykop, etc.
Never understood people who think J2B2-L283 comes from EEFs or Anatolia. We have hundreds, if not thousands, of samples from those groups and 0 J2B2-L283. The earliest J2B2s are all steppe heavy people that travelled along the Danube. In fact the earliest Serbian sample is NORTH of the Danube.
It’s true we don’t see it in the steppe so far, but we know the steppe is still poorly sampled, since we still haven’t found the CW-related R1a/R1b-L51s yet, and we know for a fact they came from there. J is not unheard of in the early steppe. They weren’t necessarily all R or I2.
It’s true that it should very likely be CHG-related, but the Yamnaya carried the most CHG-related in Europe. It makes sense that it carried some minor lineages from the ancient Caucasus.
@Gaska
"And regarding M269, where can we keep looking, Smyadovo is an anecdote?"
Smyadovo had significant steppe DNA, as the authors of that paper pointed out. His remains were recovered in eastern Bulgaria, not far from the west coast of the Black Sea. How you continue to regard all that as some sort of talking point for your erroneous opinions is baffling, but at this point you'll clutch at whatever straws are available.
Not sure where R1b-M269 first appeared. Probably somewhere on the steppe or forest steppe, since it shows up in the form of R1b-L51 and subclades in the earliest Corded Ware samples thus far known, in a couple of very early Afanasievo samples, and in the form R1b-Z2103 in Yamnaya, all loaded with steppe DNA.
I haven't the chance to read this new paper in detail, but I don't see how it does anything to help your sour grapes effort to ensure that R1b-M269 originated someplace in Europe west of the steppe.
@ Capra
OK, noted
@ Gaska
Theres no wasy E-V13 is from Middle East
As for R1b-M269 in Bulgaria/ SE Romania, is more clear now
- hunter-gatherers were admixing into Farmers south of the Danube since 5500 bc
- by late phase of early Chalcolithic we see people from the more eastern range of Sredni-Stog coming in (Q1a Csongrad, R1b-M269- Smyadovo)
- 42000 bc; climactic-driven cessation of settlement south of Danube
- continuity north of Danube, but mostly I2a-male elites
- after ~3000: arrival of steppe-rich R1b-Z2103 joining earlier I2a
@ Gio
You were right all along. PIE comes from Paleolithic Italy :)
@ Dragon Hermit
We also have quite a lot of EHGs + EHG/CHGs , an there's no j2b2, but quite a few J1, and even in the Afansievo.
So if we want to be specific, I dont think we can call J2b2 "CHG-related', it is Aze_N related
J2b2 could have arrived with the still-to-be-elaborated Dark-Burnished pottery horizon
@ Vilmaris
The east Balkan Chalcolithic (pre-4000 bc) collapsed. This was a climactic big event, not a handful of (imo mostly peaceful) traders from Khvalynsk . Of course “old Europe” continued in western Hungary, remodello, etc. it’s been over-dramatised but still an event horizon because that’s when the tide turned - north Pontic HGs started to gain the social Upper hand, but in reality this would still take another 600 years (the late Trypillia phase)
There’s clear evidence of links between southeast Europe and Anatolia . So the question is - is it from an older horizon like Vinca or Babunj-Salcuta Hum (fleeing the floods back toward Anatolia) or the neo-Balkan Usatavo/ Cernavoda chiefs
@ Orpheus
Ah so she’s acknowledging her privilege. Social trend-setter
@Matt
Do you have a list of significant IBD hits for the Ozera Yamnaya outlier handy?
@ Rob
I don't know enough English to grasp the weight of your irony, but on these topics I have written at least 20,000 letters in the past and I have spoken not only of Italy but also of the submerged Adriatic and of the present-day Balkans themselves, and of the Latin that derives from the Adriatic pile-dwellers. I also talked a lot about politics and international conspiracies. In addition to this I hope to have kept my Tuscan irony and always be capable of deadly jokes. Glad to have reunited with old friends here, not just you and David, but also, why not, Richard Stevens himself. To a Jewish friend, with whom I am in contact for his Y and more, I recalled this episode, one of the countless of my life, in which, in my small way and paying in person, I made my inquiries. I still wait, and remind David, that the oldest R-V1636 is found in Italy.
Unfortunately there are peoples who lack a sense of humour, and we Tuscans are particularly heavy-handed, even among Italians, but that's how we are. We love the joke when it fits, it's a way to say goodbye. A friend on Facebook once referred me to a Greek friend of his who had gotten a Y R-P25 from 23andMe. Knowing that I was very interested in the oldest specimens of haplogroup R, he put me in touch with him. From the scanty data of 23andMe it could not be understood more, but I assumed that it was an R-PH155, which is the only ancient R that may be older in Asia than in Europe. I suggested he take some tests at Yseq, the cheapest one, and at the time Thomas Krahn was my friend before he got involved with Hunter Provyn, who married a Georgian and became a fierce anti-Russian. I offered him a Y37 and then a SNP. R-PH200 came up and I concluded that he Greek, from an island off Athens, probably had Turkish Y, because R migrated from Europe to Asia and entered the Turkish pool and then returned with the Turkish migration. Never mind Mal'ta boy, who is an extinct branch. This while I, the payer, spent my summers in the heat like now, and he always sent photos from the sea, he, ugly as sin, with a beautiful young girl. Once she posted a photo with him and her at the beach, and he was holding a 10-12 inch wooden cock. As a Tuscan, I wrote to him: "I suspected that you, ugly as you are, had some hidden talent to be with this beautiful girl". Of course the phony Greek cut my salute. Even worse I went with a Georgian who thinks he is Turkish and is a dentist in Germany who had me thrown out of the R-YP4141 group to which I had made fundamental contributions in my first studies to which his friends had redone and which have always kept the friendship. Now the theory that R1a comes from Eastern Europe is no longer denied by anyone except a few Turkish nationalists.
From Ringbauer's preprint? Sure;
Imgur - https://i.imgur.com/Ni74Knt.png
Pastebin - https://pastebin.com/eRzhNf10
These are all hits > 12cm and you can decide the significance level that makes sense to you.
Thanks
Is there a list anywhere of the specific Ukraine N samples that were used by Penske?
I2-L699 in Cernavoda is not surprising. Given the age of M269 many users assume that it expanded in Eneolithic. But now with all this PF7562 in ancient Greece and possibly one case in ancient Armenia it is clear that the whole PF7562 branch is a Yamna expansion like the Z2103.
And given that L51 is CWC related then there is simply no any branch in M269 suitable for Eneolithic expansion with Cernavoda / Usatovo.
Unless we assume that they all became extinct.
In contrary to M269 the I2a-L699 has more complicated structure and old ages.
@Rob
"We also have quite a lot of EHGs + EHG/CHGs , an there's no j2b2, but quite a few J1, and even in the Afansievo.
I never said it has anything to do with EHGs, but steppe tribes who had CHG-related admixture. We know for a fact that the steppe is undersampled, while we can't say the same thing for EEF or other ancient Middle Eastern migrants. Like I said we have hundreds, if not thousands, of those samples. We still haven't found the EBA origin of R1a/R1b-L51 in the western steppe, let alone J which was an even bigger minority.
For something like E-V13, we have its parent E-L618 popping up here and there in EEFs. For J2B2 there is absolutely nothing. Not that clade nor its parents. It literally just shows up for the first time along the Danube and Adriatic with a high steppe component and no excess CHG.
"So if we want to be specific, I dont think we can call J2b2 "CHG-related', it is Aze_N related"
L283 is 10,000 years old and has nothing to do with that region pre-PIE. Post-PIE a tiny minority was brought in by Proto-Armenians or Hellenistic armies.
@Rob
So, in your opinion we will find R1b-M269 in the eastern range of Sredni Stog. You know what the male markers of that culture are so far, right? More wishful thinking.
@Rich S
Don't lie, Smyadovo has no significant steppe DNA, simply because this component did not exist yet, the distal models are conclusive. Sooner or later you will have to deal with it, M269 in Bulgaria is a neolithic farmer of the Gumelnite-Karanovo culture. It's funny and unbearable that I was right, isn't it?
@Aram
“All this PF7562 in ancient Greece?”
Don't make me laugh, the Mycenaean culture is overwhelmingly NOT R1b-M269, and there are only three cases when this culture had already collapsed. To pretend, as Lazaridis did, that there is a connexion with Yamnaya is also wishful thinking, first because at the moment there is no PF7562 in Yamnaya and second because there is a gap of more than a thousand years between those cultures.
“Possibly one case (PF7562) in ancient Armenia?”
Really?, who gave you this information? of course it could prove the existence of this marker in Yamnaya, but at the moment there is only Z2103 in Armenia. Just more illusory leaks (M269, L51, I1, L283, V13, and now PF7562), when that sample from Armenia is officially published, we will talk about it, meanwhile you are just speculating and confusing people.
*To the chagrin of poster Richard Rocca and his Anthrogenica followers, in addition to Smyadovo-M269, cases of L754 continue to appear in neolithic cultures of old Europe (Romania and Bulgaria)-Everyone remembers those times when the Kurganist dogma imposed the official truth, i.e. that we would not find R1b west of Ukraine without steppe ancestry. Richard accept it, you have made the biggest mistake of your life, remember that M269 is currently a marker with origin in the Balkans and L51>L151 in Bohemia-Delenda est Yamnaya.We are still waiting for you in Ibiza to explain the FTDNA theories about the origin and dispersal of Indo-European and the relation of L51>L151 with that process. I hope you have worked hard and the talk will be productive.
It seems like KTL-5 could be R1b-V3616 ?
MAJ009 denoted as R1b-L754 surely can be looked at further, as it is decent coverage.
@ Gaska
''So, in your opinion we will find R1b-M269 in the eastern range of Sredni Stog. You know what the male markers of that culture are so far, right? More wishful thinking.''
Im not bothered where M269 is from, although you are. Smyadovo has ~ 15% Khvalybsk admixture, as per my own qpADM probe based on the new coverage version.
So yeah, I'd say somehwere near the Don is a reasonable location.
@ Dragon Hermit
'' L283 is 10,000 years old and has nothing to do with that region (Aze lowland) pre-PIE. Post-PIE a tiny minority was brought in by Proto-Armenians or Hellenistic armies''
To say that j2b2 has nothing to do with south Caucasus -Iran region is simply delusional.
Calculated TMRCA doesnt equate with physical separation, ive explained this before. It's simply a mutational estimate, not a population history
We have hundreds of Yamnaya samples, and not a single one is J2b2.
@ Gio
Im not entirely following your story there, but I was simply making the joke, which is partly true - given that I2a-L699 is at least partly linked with an archaic horizon of IE, and its earliest ancestral attestation is in Italy - Tagliente, etc (but its actually not from there)
@All
Irrespective of the claims made by Penske et al., are any of the samples in this paper useful in modeling Yamnaya?
@ Davidski
These pre-Yamnaya samples from western-most steppe are quite heterogeneous. So you would need to define which samples to use
But (without actually having looked at them) they look too EEF-rich to be the source of later Yamnaya Samara and early Corded Ware. We probably need a second wave coming from the Don-Volga, barring more complicated de-EEFing admixture scenarios
@Rob
“@ Gio
Im not entirely following your story there, but I was simply making the joke, which is partly true - given that I2a-L699 is at least partly linked with an archaic horizon of IE, and its earliest ancestral attestation is in Italy - Tagliente, etc (but its actually not from there)”.
So I understood correctly what you wrote. When Villabruna of 14,000 years ago, and then Les Iboussières of 12,000 years ago, was found, certainly not wanted, against everyone's ideas, but not mine, many privately sent me the image of Tardelli, my fellow countryman, a Tuscan from the Garfagnana, who was exulting for the world goal. Other times, you could say, but I would like to point out that the last World Cup was practically won by Lionel Messi, who has his roots just beyond the Apennines. Naturally many have written rivers of ink against Villabruna, but I explained in detail that he was only one specimen of a tribe of various R1b, and that probably all descendants found later derived from there. Certainly there was a migration towards the Balkans and the Baltic after the Younger Dryas, but haplogroup I is also Paleolithic in Italy, and we talked about I-M223 (and Tagliente) above. Of course I never denied that they were hunter-gatherers of the Siberian corridor, but certainly the Alpine or Adriatic refuge was an important place in their history. So linking them not only to genetics but also to languages was a no-brainer, and I already did it many years ago. I also linked J to I, and have always advocated its presence in Europe before the Caucasus. I wrote most of my letters on the links between the Alps and the Caucasus, and I never believed in northern Anatolia as anything other than southern Europe and the Mediterranean islands. By chance they also found the oldest R-P312 in Adige 2023. They will find much more if they investigate, and no one cites the essays of my correspondents such as Boattini on the two Italian Paleolithic shelters. But I explained the causes of this with politics and finance, the Zionist one.
@Davidski
“Irrespective of the claims made by Penske et al., are any of the samples in this paper useful in modeling Yamnaya?”
I’d think Boyanovo “BOY” prefix samples could be used. I know you guys used Boyanovo EBA as a reference for the
Ancient DNA Albania paper EBA Cinamak sample. Some of the BOY samples seem to overlap w/ MAJ/Majaki in Ukraine. I’m not sure if those Majaki samples are actually Yamnaya or slightly older Usatovo samples. Perhaps they’re a mix. I know the Yamnaya liked to reuse/repurpose older burial complexes/kurgans for some of their inhumations.
Lastly, KTL001 (Kartal, Ukraine) could be used, but he looks to be Cernavoda I, so pre Yamnaya. He plots close, from what I can remember, to BOY19. They’re both about 70% western Yamnaya. Rest of BOY and some of the MAJ samples looked to be about 82-86% western Yamnaya.
@Davidski
“Irrespective of the claims made by Penske et al., are any of the samples in this paper useful in modeling Yamnaya?”
They modelled Yamnaya_Samara, Yamnaya_Ukraine and Yamnaya_Caucasus using source populations like "Steppe Eneolithic", "Caucasus Eneolithic/Maykop" (KuraAraxes, Darkveti-Meshoko, Maikop), "Ukraine_N", "KTL001" (Cernavodă I), "USV" (Usatove) and "Globular Amphora".
Their finalized qpAdm models for the aforementioned three Yamnaya labels: image.
@Rob
Yes KTL005 looks like V1636 not just M343 and the Boyanovo samples are all Z2103.There is one L754 in Majaky, I don't know if anyone has checked the sample.
Ok, the Don River is a reasonable location, you just have to prove it
by the way, I am not bothered about the origin of M269, I am just scientifically curious.
@Gio-“The oldest R-P312 in Adige 2023”
That sample has been published?
Would you mind sharing that information with us?
@Davidski, Supplementary Table Y - https://i.imgur.com/xpshQaW.png
@Gaska
It is in the FTDNA tree
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-P312/tree
I didn’t find more, but an American relative of mine sent that in private letters:
“I just noticed he is the earliest sample ~2900 BCE of a whole pile (well over 100) of associated graves spread all across Europe, to include Spain.
Adige 2083 was a 45-50 year old man who lived between 3500 and 2200 BCE during the Copper Age and was found in the region now known as Adige valley, Trentino, Italy.
He was associated with the Copper Age Italy cultural group.
Reference: 2083 from Granehäll et al. 2021” [Doug Leeper]
Thank you Gio, it's a pleasure to have you back
@ Gaska
I thank you. When I was banned pretty much from everywhere and the blogs with my letters were out or my letters deleted, I sent your posts to my mail list as they were mine, because they made pretty much the same fight. I didn’t agree with your position against Russia and this war, for the reasons I have been telling for all my life. Nobody of us consider Basques if not the same of us. That Basque language was linked with Old Sardinian I think was demonstrated by Blasco Ferrer, and the closest match I found so far at the Y level is a French Basque: HGDP00511.
Gaska
If You believe that KTL005 can be a V1636 then You can also believe that there was PF7562 in ancient Armenia. The source of information is the same. Except that for that PF7562 there are other arguments also.
At this stage PF7562 looks like a minor Yamna lineage. Nothing remarkable.
As for it's presence in ancient Greece. The recent Skourtanioti paper also has found newPF7562 in ancient Greece. So it was an important Proto Greek marker.
@Gaska
"Thank you Gio, it's a pleasure to have you back"
He's good comedy for sure, though his antisemitic conspiracy theories and his pro-Russian attitude are far from appetizing.
@Gio
Gioiello is still banned according to this list: https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/09/banned-commentators-list.html?m=1
But maybe Dave tolerates a Gio.
@Simon_W
"@Gaska
"Thank you Gio, it's a pleasure to have you back"
He's good comedy for sure, though his antisemitic conspiracy theories and his pro-Russian attitude are far from appetizing.
@Gio
Gioiello is still banned according to this list: https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/09/banned-commentators-list.html?m=1
But maybe Dave tolerates a Gio."
Yes, Gio/Gioiello is already blaming "Zionists" for suppressing his Italy-is-the-womb-of-all-R1b mythos:
"By chance they also found the oldest R-P312 in Adige 2023. They will find much more if they investigate, and no one cites the essays of my correspondents such as Boattini on the two Italian Paleolithic shelters. But I explained the causes of this with politics and finance, the Zionist one."
He and Gaska make a rather loathsome pair.
@Aram
". . . But now with all this PF7562 in ancient Greece and possibly one case in ancient Armenia it is clear that the whole PF7562 branch is a Yamna expansion like the Z2103 . . ."
Can you tell me which paper the ancient Greek R1b-PF7562 appears in? Sorry to be behind on that development, but I missed it.
Thanks.
@Gaska
"Don't lie, Smyadovo has no significant steppe DNA, simply because this component did not exist yet, the distal models are conclusive. Sooner or later you will have to deal with it, M269 in Bulgaria is a neolithic farmer of the Gumelnite-Karanovo culture. It's funny and unbearable that I was right, isn't it?"
Sorry, Gaska, but lying is your specialty. Apparently steppe DNA did exist, because Smyadovo had plenty of it. Btw, I can't recall you ever having been right about anything.
Here's what Mathieson et al say about sample I2181 ("Smyadovo") from their 2018 paper, "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe" (page 8):
"In two directly dated individuals from southeastern Europe, one (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dated to 4711-4550 BCE and one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dated to 4550-4450 BCE, we find far earlier evidence of steppe-related ancestry (Figure 1B,D). These findings push back the first evidence of steppe-related ancestry this far West in Europe by almost 2,000 years, but it was sporadic as other Copper Age (~5000-4000 BCE) individuals from the Balkans have no evidence of it."
Clearly, Smyadovo (I2181) had steppe-related ancestry.
If I2181 was a "Neolithic farmer" (there is no evidence he was), he was one whose Y-DNA line came from the steppe, since R1b-M269 appears among no Neolithic farmers thus far, despite the wealth of Neolithic farmer samples in Europe, and Smyadovo had steppe-related autosomal DNA. Thus far no ancient R1b-M269 (and subclades) remains have appeared that do not also have steppe DNA, and by far most of those remains belong to steppe pastoralist or steppe pastoralist-derived cultures, i.e., Afanasievo, Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Vucedol, Proto-Nagyrev, and Beaker.
@Matt
Yeah, everything points to the Ozera outlier being a first generation 50/50 Yamnaya/Maykop mix: the qpAdm and G25 models, PCA, IBD, and chronology.
Also, keep in mind that the Yamnaya population involved was likely more western than Yamnaya Samara, because it was probably from Ukraine.
Once we get more Yamnaya samples from Ukraine, it'll probably be possible to get a near perfect fit for the Ozera outlier.
Rich S.
This papers.
Lazaridis 2022. The southern arc
Skourtanioti 2023, "Ancient DNA reveals admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean"
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-022-01952-3
Gaska
Smyadovo is not from Yamna but from Sredni Stog. And it migrated with Cernavoda culture. That is quite obvious imho.
Thanks!
@Gio
Since you mentioned the submerged Adriatic.
As a Greek, I was thinking about the sumbmerged Cycladic plain. Do you have any thoughts about that? It is possible to find a lineage (whatever that is) that is local e.g. since the Mesolithic, that descended from even earlier local populations. No one has wondered if there can be anything local and try to push everything 'South Caucasus' or in 'Iran', even when there are no real evidence.
Were there people in Attica or the Cyclades e.g. during the Late Pleistocene? Who were they?
@ Apostolos
As I spoke about the submerged Adriatic (but there was a land with Italy and the Balkans from where the great Cardial culture came) and others spoke about Doggerland (my friend/enemy Jeff Taylor), I think you are right to investigate the submerged lands in Greece. I don’t know of particular haplogroups from up there, but I expose the theory (against the great Dutch linguist Schrijver who thought to Hattic) that Etruscans were the agriculturalists from the Aegean Sea, not Anatolia, who migrated northward until the eastern Alps and later to Etruria and they spoke just Etruscan (look at the Lemnian), thus their Y could be some J2 and G-L497 or perhaps some R. But much water passed below the bridges. I had this experience I talk about about a Greek of an island off Athens. You may read that above. He resulted R-PH200 probabvly of Turkish origin. I always thought that Greeks have some intake of an unknown origin I don’t identify nowhere elsewhere, just for some characteristics I found in a Greek woman.
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